Bazerka (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=sixdogman,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MkNAelF2,comment-id=000100020000000300000001,timestamp=2018-06-19T16:29:42.477+0000) > > Then you've given up on the problem. You can't change the individuals so if you're not willing to change the game systems that handle them then there is no recourse left. You've resigned yourself to accepting this problem forever until you're willing to change the punishment system to deal with these people. I don't blame a system when, ultimately, the responsibility is on people and society to shepherd change. That may be overly optimistic or sheltered of me I will admit, but I never expect a system to singularly create behavior or societal change. Rather its a combination of my small individual efforts combined with systemic change that creates sustainable positive growth. Its my responsibility as a person to do what ever small or little act I can to fix the root problem, in this case by showing kindness and empathy towards the people I'm playing with & against. To bring it to a really personal place, when I was younger one could have argued it was the "school system" that caused me to battle depression & suicidal thoughts. However, it was a small group of people (couple teachers and a new friend) who took the responsibility upon themselves to combat the root causes of that depression (in my case loneliness and lack of self worth). It was them, not the system, that helped me stabilize. Again, I'm not saying the system can't be changed to make this work easier. That absolutely needs to and is being done (honor, reporting tool, matchmaking, etc). However, recusing yourself from the responsibility of combating the negative symptoms of life that manifest in toxicity by blaming the "system" is a bs move to me. Sorry for being so inflamed by this (and taking it to a very personal story), but I feel very strongly about topics like these. We all have to step up and take responsibility for our own part of the solution, whether it be in a game or in life. “If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem.” ― Eldridge Cleaver
> Sorry for being so inflamed by this (and taking it to a very personal story), but I feel very strongly about topics like these. We all have to step up and take responsibility for our own part of the solution, whether it be in a game or in life. No problem, thanks for the great reply. I want to respond to you but I'm about to get busy at work, i'll try to respond later.
Bazerka (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=sixdogman,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MkNAelF2,comment-id=0001000800000001,timestamp=2018-06-19T16:33:22.837+0000) > > Tilter - one who exhibits high variance in gameplay whose performance runs in streaks. Sounds like a metric for that behaviour would be reasonable to derive. Very "Black Mirror-esq" lol. How would you account for variance with good / bad days, new champ learning, other qued roles, or simply bad games / teams? All of those in a "high variance" variable would look the same, and I don't think people would appreciate being punished for simply having a bad day (or streak of bad days). I'm not saying this isn't a possibility, nor should it never be considered. Rather I want the scope and nuance of the problem space to be appreciated.
> How would you account for variance with good / bad days, Feel free to disagree with me on this one but isn't that what we are trying to measure? People who regularly have good/bad days is the problem we are here to discuss. The cause of that personal variance isn't necessarily the problem but the effect that variance in performance has on other players is the root cause of the frustration. > new champ learning, You're recording which champs they play so how many games logged on a champion is a variable in your arsenal. Tolerances for variance in gameplay could be broadened. One reasonable approach is to assume high variance gameplay at first and lean harder into measured outcomes on that champion with number of games played. Interestingly this information could be used to give champion specific MMR for each player to help tighten matchmaking and/or calculated LP gains/losses, even if it isn't used to detect tilters. > other qued roles, You're also measuring which roles are assigned/played in champ select with the ranked updates scheduled for the upcoming preseason, so role specific performance is also in your arsenal. > or simply bad games / teams? Bad games/teams _tend_ to not come in regular streaks. If this is a big enough problem and not a factor in individual performance then that's a failure in matchmaking, which is what the person you responded to was commenting on. We've come full circle back to highlighting the need to shore up the matchmaking algorithm. ----------------------------------- Now, whether or not you should queue tilters against each other is another question entirely, but it could be detected.
Bazerka (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Red Wreckage,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MkNAelF2,comment-id=00010008,timestamp=2018-06-14T08:12:55.425+0000) > > Be positive, don't tilt, don't flame, encourage your teammates blah blah.... > > but we, Riot Games will not bother at all to fix/improve our matchmaking at all. If the feeders / tilters in your game are mismatched definitely let us know cause thats a severe problem (thinking like a bronze in a high gold game, etc). However, I don't know if, outside of rank and mmr, we are able to que "non feeders / tilters" together. Not sure thats a metric we record. If you had some ideas around that would love to hear about it!
> However, I don't know if, outside of rank and mmr, we are able to que "non feeders / tilters" together. Not sure thats a metric we record. Tilter - one who exhibits high variance in gameplay whose performance runs in streaks. Sounds like a metric for that behaviour would be reasonable to derive.
Bazerka (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=StonePlatypus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MkNAelF2,comment-id=0001000200000003,timestamp=2018-06-14T05:49:12.747+0000) > > You've obviously never played League. > > "Hey how's it going, everyone have a nice day?" > > A common response. > > "Go fuck yourself, I'm running it down mid F*ggot". (also please note this is an example. I don't promote or encourage hate speech) > > ^ This is what I expect from the game, nine times out of ten this is the environment the game fosters. > > Despite my better judgement I still like the game and the cool people I've made in those 1 in 10 games. (Which is a testament to them, not your game) Thats tough to swallow since I've been playing actively since beta (and yea I suck compared to how much time I've put in, but thats another topic). But I agree its a hard time when you get those responses. That being said do I personally blame the game for getting those responses? No (now keep in mind I'm biased lol). I blame the individuals and hope that the game can provide a positive influence to help them. By perpetuating the toxicity I'm making the problem worse, not helping it. It would be like adding oil to an oil spill rather than trying to clean it up (to use a crude metaphor).
> That being said do I personally blame the game for getting those responses? No Then you've given up on the problem. You can't change the individuals so if you're not willing to change the game systems that handle them then there is no recourse left. You've resigned yourself to accepting this problem forever until you're willing to change the punishment system to deal with these people.
: At this point, it's hard to fix everything that's fucked up. There's just too much. Everything since preseason 7 (or even just the end of season 6) has led up to this point. It's a long chain of events starting from whatever led to the assassin rework, which led to the lethality buffs, which led to the ADCin2017lul, which led to the ADC and support buffs, which led to the tank buffs, which led to more lethality buffs, and somewhere in all that, bruiser buffs and mage changes were thrown in. And for some reason, any time a champ is said to be under-performing, riot just throws more damage into their kit, as if that would solve the problem. It's been going on like that for so long that there's too much of it. For example, Lee Sin. "Oh wow we removed tracker's knife. We just nerfed Lee Sin. Damn he's missing some core utility to his kit. Instead of buffing his ward hop in some way, let's just add some damage to his kit." Or Bard. "Bard is really not meeting standards as an enchanter, catcher, or whatever the fuck he's supposed to be. Instead of buffing his heal with a cooldown decrease or a heal increase, let's buff his meep damage. Let's make him a damage support"
I would say it started sooner than that around the juggernaut update or preseason 6, but yeah. Pretty much sums it up.
: They're not really nerfing damage though. They're just making everything feel like shit. Damage is still high as fuck, and everything is still oneshot or be oneshot. It's a giant chaotic fiesta now
Well if they hold their guns with the support nerfs then the only way to balance things is to lower damage now that there is no options for defensive response. If they keep nerfing things they will eventually be forced to nerf damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=sixdogman,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UaxYuzxy,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-13T21:25:47.501+0000) > > You misunderstand what is needed for those iterations. You can run hundreds of iterations on the same set of human input. The iterations for the machine learning algorithm to converge are not the same as the patch-patch cycle adjustments which would require more human input. The speed of convergence is not limited in the way you think it is. Each iteration need to be graded according to an objective function, to evaluate its fitness. What metrics are you suggesting to use for that function, that wouldn't require human input? Because any metrics that is measured in-game requires SOMEONE to play the game. So yeah, you told me to ask away, that's what I'm doing. What metrics? > This is not one of those things. This is a straightforward application of a technology that has been around since 1957. Machine learning doesn&#x27;t need the research you suggest, it is an established field. For comparison the internet was invented in 1983. By your logic we need 10-20 years of research to make an online game because the internet isn&#x27;t well understood yet, but if that were the case we would never have league. < Removed by moderation > 1957 is the date of the seminal paper that funded the theory. On the other hand, 1983 is the date internet was publicly released, ARPANET was used since 1969, and the seminal paper is from 1963. Twenty years before the date you actually claim. And even after Internet was released, we still waited for roughly another decade before the technology progressed far enough to have real time online multiplayer games. Not even a close comparison at all. > Talk more about being aware of what is or isn&#x27;t state of the art. Machine learning is probably older than you are. < Removed by moderation > > Going around looking for problems instead of helping find a solution is a defeatist attitude. Telling other people that they can&#x27;t do something or that it is impossible when it isn&#x27;t is a defeatist attitude. Wrap it in a guise of realism if it makes you feel better but don&#x27;t go around telling other people what is or isn&#x27;t possible. I&#x27;ve done harder things than this. I highly doubt you've done harder than this. And if you did, you were most likely part of a big team that spent several years on it. Which is kinda my point: it's not worth it. Which is what I'm saying since my very first post, NOT that it's technically impossible, but that it's not worth it in the current context. Even YOUR estimation, "10 people for a year" is definitely not worth it, and I'm convinced a more realistic estimation is an order of magnitude bigger, if not two. Also, you seem to forget that the first step to solving problems is to actually define them. "Going around looking for problems" is the very basis of design. But sure, hurls more condescending comments at me and feel superior, if that's your trip...
> < removed by moderation > I tried to explain it to you, you won't take it. Get out of my face if you're not willing to have a conversation. This isn't the first time recently that you've resorted to name calling and belittlement to derail conversations.
: > [{quoted}](name=sixdogman,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UaxYuzxy,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-13T18:08:17.523+0000) > > I addressed the issues where you directly addressed me. If you&#x27;d like further insights in how to address the problem ask away. I&#x27;m a little tired of reiterating the same points over and over again so a further explanation of how to set up this kind of system which has applications beyond just balance but can be applied to player behaviour and some game design elements as we&#x27;ve discussed can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8l4m2g/as_a_player_i_dont_care_about_verbal_toxicity_i/dzfgfsk/?context=0). > > Don&#x27;t give me the excuse that this can&#x27;t be done. That&#x27;s a defeatist attitude. If it doesn&#x27;t violate the laws of physics then it can be done. I do things that people tell me can&#x27;t be done all the time at my job. Don&#x27;t let other people&#x27;s perceived limitations of your abilities be your limitations. I'll read the reddit post in details later, thanks for the link. However, after a quick skimming, it seems this doesn't address the issue of each iteration being very slow. All machine learning systems require hundreds of iterations before converging to an optimized solution, with each iteration being evaluated. And in LoL, to get this evaluation, you need actual people to play the game. This means each iteration must be at least a couple days long, which is not viable. Also, about the "defeatist attitude", I have to disagree. There are tons of things that are theoretically possible because they don't violate the laws of physics, and still would be terrible endeavors for a business because they still need 10 or 20 years of research before being viable. That's not being defeatist, that's being aware of the state of the art.
> [{quoted}](name=DeathBurs7,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UaxYuzxy,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-13T19:08:08.232+0000) > > I&#x27;ll read the reddit post in details later, thanks for the link. However, after a quick skimming, it seems this doesn&#x27;t address the issue of each iteration being very slow. All machine learning systems require hundreds of iterations before converging to an optimized solution, with each iteration being evaluated. And in LoL, to get this evaluation, you need actual people to play the game. This means each iteration must be at least a couple days long, which is not viable. You misunderstand what is needed for those iterations. You can run hundreds of iterations on the same set of human input. The iterations for the machine learning algorithm to converge are not the same as the patch-patch cycle adjustments which would require more human input. The speed of convergence is not limited in the way you think it is. > Also, about the &quot;defeatist attitude&quot;, I have to disagree. There are tons of things that are theoretically possible because they don&#x27;t violate the laws of physics, and still would be terrible endeavors for a business because they still need 10 or 20 years of research before being viable. That&#x27;s not being defeatist, that&#x27;s being aware of the state of the art. This is not one of those things. This is a straightforward application of a technology that has been around since 1957. Machine learning doesn't need the research you suggest, it is an established field. For comparison the internet was invented in 1983. By your logic we need 10-20 years of research to make an online game because the internet isn't well understood yet, but if that were the case we would never have league. Talk more about being aware of what is or isn't state of the art. Machine learning is probably older than you are. Going around looking for problems instead of helping find a solution is a defeatist attitude. Telling other people that they can't do something or that it is impossible when it isn't is a defeatist attitude. Wrap it in a guise of realism if it makes you feel better but don't go around telling other people what is or isn't possible. I've done harder things than this.
: > [{quoted}](name=sixdogman,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UaxYuzxy,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-06-13T16:31:14.904+0000) > > Nothing, but that&#x27;s just background noise and background noise can be subtracted. It&#x27;s also worth noting that once you begin to gather that feedback you can compare the background noise levels for every champion and that gives you valuable feedback on what champions players find frustrating so you can focus your work in places that will have the most benifit. > > That&#x27;s not as much effort as the balance team is putting into the game right now. You&#x27;ve got a team of dozens of individuals working full time ad infinitum on this problem. A team of fewer than 10 skilled individuals could implement this in a year and suddenly all the data scientists informing the balance team have their work automated and they can focus on something else. > > So all in all, yes this could be done. We just need the willpower to do so. And of course this is assuming that balance is the end goal, but from riot&#x27;s past work it seems like constant change, imbalance, and frustration is what they are aiming for. You only replied to half my objections. The rest of it is largely enough to make it not worth it. It's far from being just a question of willingness.
> [{quoted}](name=DeathBurs7,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UaxYuzxy,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-06-13T18:02:41.712+0000) > > You only replied to half my objections. The rest of it is largely enough to make it not worth it. It&#x27;s far from being just a question of willingness. I addressed the issues where you directly addressed me. If you'd like further insights in how to address the problem ask away. I'm a little tired of reiterating the same points over and over again so a further explanation of how to set up this kind of system which has applications beyond just balance but can be applied to player behaviour and some game design elements as we've discussed can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8l4m2g/as_a_player_i_dont_care_about_verbal_toxicity_i/dzfgfsk/?context=0). Don't give me the excuse that this can't be done. That's a defeatist attitude. If it doesn't violate the laws of physics then it can be done. I do things that people tell me can't be done all the time at my job. Don't let other people's perceived limitations of your abilities be your limitations.
: What if you are toxic and you dont know it?
: PSA: average game times at patch 8.11 ranged from 27min (low mmr) to 23min (high mmr)
They've been struggling with this concept since 5.22. Don't expect them to pick up on this idea at this point.
: Good job nerfing every support without any kind of compensation
My only hope is that now that they've nerfed supports they will get around to nerfing damage. If supports aren't oppressing assassins and divers then we can properly nerf assassins and divers. After that lower CDR across the board so we have actuall cooldowns to manage again and we'll be back to a potentially reasonable spot.
: The problem with neural networks (and AI in general) is that they are pretty straightforward: you define their goal, and they mindlessly optimize for it. Now, how do you define balance? Obviously, saying that everyone should be exactly at 50% winrate won't work. Defining what SHOULD be the proper state of the game is more than half the work. That's why AI is not worth it for League, at least not right now. Who knows, once we'll get true AI that can understand and interpret the commands themselves, maybe that'll work. But for now? Forget it. And yes, I've seen Sixdogman suggesting taking "feedback from players." But how does he hope to make that work? What's preventing any angry player who just lost to tag what they lost to as OP? What form will that feedback take, and how will it be made machine-readable? That is, in itself, a task just as hard as the balancing itself. Once again, not worth it. Finally, there is one last issue: machine learning is dumb. It tries a lot of things, evaluate them, then tries slightly different tweaks. Even the most intelligent versions still work on this very simple and systematic principle, the only difference is in how choosing which tweak to try. But even with the best versions, we're still talking hundreds of tries at the very least before getting to an optimized solution, and probably closer to thousands or millions. How do you make so many tries on a game like LoL? You can't have the AI plays the game itself, you still need human players in the loop for EVERY iteration. Slow, boring humans, who need an hour to play a game. Even if you'd release a new Patch every day, based on the data gathered the previous day (assuming one day is enough to be reliable, which is probly not the case), you'd still need a year or so before the game is "balanced" (assuming you managed to define that for the AI, and let me repeat that's already a huge problem in itself). So all in all? No, a neural network couldn't balance LoL.
> And yes, I&#x27;ve seen Sixdogman suggesting taking &quot;feedback from players.&quot; But how does he hope to make that work? What&#x27;s preventing any angry player who just lost to tag what they lost to as OP? Nothing, but that's just background noise and background noise can be subtracted. It's also worth noting that once you begin to gather that feedback you can compare the background noise levels for every champion and that gives you valuable feedback on what champions players find frustrating so you can focus your work in places that will have the most benifit. > What form will that feedback take, and how will it be made machine-readable? That is, in itself, a task just as hard as the balancing itself. Once again, not worth it. That's not as much effort as the balance team is putting into the game right now. You've got a team of dozens of individuals working full time ad infinitum on this problem. A team of fewer than 10 skilled individuals could implement this in a year and suddenly all the data scientists informing the balance team have their work automated and they can focus on something else. So all in all, yes this could be done. We just need the willpower to do so. And of course this is assuming that balance is the end goal, but from riot's past work it seems like constant change, imbalance, and frustration is what they are aiming for.
Bazerka (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=sixdogman,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UaxYuzxy,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2018-06-12T20:40:24.572+0000) > > Piecemeal repairs end up costing way more than wholesale renovations and often lead to worse results. Have you ever seen a house that has DIY projects layered on top of each other? I could tell you some stories about the house that i grew up in including how the roof blew off the house entirely (which totaled it), how at that point the entire house was held to the foundation by only 4 bolts, and when we moved in it only had one water shut off valve in the entire house. I&#x27;m a bit lucky to have made it to adulthood. *shrug* > > What kind of results do you want from your balancing in the end? A polished fully realized renovation, or a series of piecemeal changes? Definitely! Its the same with that saying "buy the higher end pc parts rather than going budget". However, thats assuming someone has done the expensive research needed to get those pc parts made in the first place. Currently technology isn't at a point where neural networks can handle complex problems, so $$ would first be required to get the tech research up to that point before spending even more $$ to implement it. Am I saying that should scare us off? Not necessarily, but I understand why we haven't pursued it yet. Its also why I'm hype for people like Elon Musk who both has the popular support and $$ to pursue research into opening up new fields.
> [{quoted}](name=Bazerka,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UaxYuzxy,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2018-06-13T02:38:07.167+0000) > > Definitely! Its the same with that saying &quot;buy the higher end pc parts rather than going budget&quot;. However, thats assuming someone has done the expensive research needed to get those pc parts made in the first place. Currently technology isn&#x27;t at a point where neural networks can handle complex problems, so $$ would first be required to get the tech research up to that point before spending even more $$ to implement it. Am I saying that should scare us off? Not necessarily, but I understand why we haven&#x27;t pursued it yet. > > Its also why I&#x27;m hype for people like Elon Musk who both has the popular support and $$ to pursue research into opening up new fields. > Currently technology isn't at a point where neural networks can handle complex problems, U wut m8? Seriously? My thesis was finding three individual events in literally tens of quadrillions of proton proton events at the LHC. This is in particle physics where a subset of the particles we need (neutrinos) are literally invisible so we have no information on them and "heavy" objects like the top quark and heavy bosons decay basically instantly and we have to reconstruct them from their decay products. We've been using neural networks to reconstruct quantum chromo dynamics events for heavy quarks for 30-40 years now. The technology has been there for a long long time. We don't need an elon musk to go out and do what's already been done. There are implementation costs, but the research is done. We have applied this technology to far more complex systems than balancing league.
Raiyza (NA)
: I don't understand why ranked can't have ban phases. I would LOVE that. Oh look, you picked Kog maw? Let's just ban Janna and Lulu. {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}}
> ~~Oh look, you picked Kog maw?~~ Let's just ban Janna and Lulu. ftfy
: Or, bear with me here, you ban sequentially, jsut like how you pick. you get say 15 seconds to ban someone, and then its the next guy's turn.
Well, riot seems terrified that pick/ban might take too long, so we won't get that. In principle i agree with you.
: Riot there's too much cancer in-game to allow double bans anymore, champs should be banned once only
Ok, I'm on the opposite team you are, and want to play XYZ champ. Bans start, i hover XYZ champ. You ban something else because you see that XYZ champ is already going to be banned. At the last second i ban something else. My teammate first picks XYZ champ for me. ---------------------------- Or ban phase becomes a game of ban chicken where no one shows their bans until the last second so as to not give information over. This leads to higher dodge rates as someone tries to ban a champion that was already banned and can't because it was already banned by someone else but they don't have enough time to switch their ban. Don't design bans chicken into the system, that's only going to cause more problems.
: Contribute further to an incoming ban/chat restriction
After a session with 13/20 teammates across three games, one remake, and one dodged champ select who were either trolling, threatening to troll, afk, or hard raging, you'll have to forgive my lack of faith. The results of their wait and see report system are underwhelming.
Bazerka (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=HalcyonDweller,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UaxYuzxy,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-06-12T19:16:04.619+0000) > > It&#x27;s definitely an investment of time and effort, but if done correctly it could save Riot a lot of time and stress down the road! For sure! But the question is how much time and money will it take to explore and get the tech to the appropriate spot? And can we afford to take on that cost when our house is in need of repairs right now X). Business decisions lol, they suck sometimes.
> [{quoted}](name=Bazerka,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UaxYuzxy,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-12T20:15:20.816+0000) > > For sure! But the question is how much time and money will it take to explore and get the tech to the appropriate spot? And can we afford to take on that cost when our house is in need of repairs right now X). Business decisions lol, they suck sometimes. Piecemeal repairs end up costing way more than wholesale renovations and often lead to worse results. Have you ever seen a house that has DIY projects layered on top of each other? I could tell you some stories about the house that i grew up in including how the roof blew off the house entirely (which totaled it), how at that point the entire house was held to the foundation by only 4 bolts, and when we moved in it only had one water shut off valve in the entire house. I'm a bit lucky to have made it to adulthood. *shrug* What kind of results do you want from your balancing in the end? A polished fully realized renovation, or a series of piecemeal changes?
Bazerka (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=TheCodeisCupCake,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=mHWgd1gN,comment-id=00030003,timestamp=2018-06-12T18:37:17.351+0000) > > Is there a mute function for emotes or pings? I believe I heard its /fullmute all
That unfortunatly unmutes anyone or anything you had already previously muted. It functions as a mute toggle instead of a state set.
Yatol (NA)
: it take more than one game.
Not for everything, they have "zero tolerance" policies on several things including hate speech for example.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: What people want is for Riot to spend their time 24/7 on the boards answering every question we can possibly have. I don't know about you but the boards aren't Riot Support. Riot is definitely having conversations with us and they communicate plenty but the players don't really like that, they want more and they want the ability to veto changes when Riot announces them. That's not going to happen. Could the boards be upgraded? Certainly. But is it worth the cost? Unlikely. Reddit is even more popular and the question is would people migrate to the new boards and move the discussions here? I suppose not BECAUSE reddit is simply a massive hub for almost everything. People can jump easily from sub to sub for the things they are interested in and they can subscribe to them in order to get easier updates on their pages. LoL boards would basically have to out-feature reddit in usability and have better reach than them (maybe some integration with the League client without actually having to be in League) in order for it to be considered as a replacement. Otherwise, it's just wasted resources for a project that's uncertain at this point. At least, that's how things look from my perspective.
> What people want is for Riot to spend their time 24/7 on the boards answering every question we can possibly have. That's an absolute straw man of the problem, so i hope it isn't going to happen.
: Could a neural network balance league?
Yes, yes it could. It would need feedback from players to make it "feel" right, but that could be implemented.
Ebonmaw (EUNE)
: How do you know that nothing happends :O
I've received honest to goodness death threats in this game, straight up "I'm going to find out where you live and shoot you in the head while you sleep" style. I reported them in the post game and sent screenshots to support and they never even got a 14 day ban and are still playing last time i checked. Fairly certain the system is broken and nothing happens even in the clearest cut cases.
Krytoric (NA)
: I love league, but i get why people are quitting. (Long Rant)
Ebonmaw (EUNE)
: look on the bright side , u get to report her again :D
If nothing happens the first time what do you think another report is going to do?
: anyone else just sick of league of legends?
Yeah, i'm pretty fed up with it. Mostly the player toxicity and the balance/design team making the same exact mistakes over and over with no obvious direction for the game. It would be nice if they were trying on these fronts but i can't see any advancements from where i see things.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: Feedback isn't a list of demands. Riot promises that they'll listen to us, not that they'll implement exactly what we're suggesting. Even if a user on the boards is correct in their assumptions, Riot has their own way of looking at things and they always have multiple (many more) paths they could take but rest assured that all of feedback is carefully picked through the meetings with various Rioters that are in charge of making such changes. Not a single Rioter can make a decision to have something in the game and not run it through the department or a Lead Designer or whatever. Ghostcrawler and Meddler don't make changes on their own either. As i've said, there is a way to get positive attention by being concise, logical and most helpful in identifying a set of issues with the game, be it balance or bugs. It's also understandable that sometimes you can get frustrated but if in further communication attempts you can't let this go and continue to berate and shit-talk people who are there to listen to you, even if you're right - no one's going to give a damn what you have to say anymore. The state of boards right now is basically people venting and this isn't their own personal Facebook/Tumblr/Twitter feed. This is a public forum for people to _**discuss**_ League of Legends. Shouting at Rioters/at each other, vote-brigading doesn't make anyone who's making some poor argument right even if you have the upvotes to stay on the Hot Page for a day.
> The state of boards right now is basically people venting and this isn't their own personal Facebook/Tumblr/Twitter feed. This is a public forum for people to discuss League of Legends. And back when riot used to engage with the boards it was that. When riot retreated from conversations the whole of the boards got very echo chamber-y leading to the problems that push rioters away from the boards, but lack of interaction is what caused the environment in the first place. As an outsider to the system there's no way for me to encourage discussion the way riot can, so this is a situation where one side has all the power to fix the problem, while the other side doesn't and is understandably frustrated by it. Riot doesn't have to cater to our every whim, i've repeated that over and over so bringing that point up again isn't helping anyone, but they have to communicate, and communication is a two way street. The boards have unfortunately turned into a dead end.
: > [{quoted}](name=sixdogman,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6EZn1LF2,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2018-06-09T03:04:03.074+0000) > > I would imagine that the first patch could be hard coded though. > > if (firstPatch) > listAs= support > else > grabFromPreviousPatch(arguments) Interesting thought, not sure how the coding would work on it since the client is kinda complex, but hopefully a red sees this or something.
My first guess is that this wasn't built in as a feature when they did the classification system, and adding things after the fact is much harder if they weren't thought of in initial development. *shrug*
: just report them n hope something happens. but also only report when u truly believe they should b punished/ they should be reviewed by riot. Bc punishments rly do happen and they happen quickly
Well i sent 13 reports in the other day, i'll have to check up and see if any of them mattered.
Chermorg (NA)
: Oh... you can't? OP.GG pulls from match history - just cause it isn't on the League website doesn't mean it isn't available as public data in the API: https://puu.sh/ABOxC/1aa0aeec78.png
1) You're not even looking at the right game. I was the jungler in the game in question. 2) screencap from the replay. - https://imgur.com/a/X4fLV6D Now if you're done questioning my memory and calling me a liar leave me alone. Maybe its time you stop and question if this game is as nice and cheery as you wish it was, or if _you're_ just cherry picking what _you_ want to see and coming to the conclusions _you_ want to.
Chermorg (NA)
: I'd love to see the replays. I can't wait. I'll admit the ADC and Azir are not fully proven in any way - but the CS is literally proven by match history that's either a lie or at least an oversight on your part.
Given that you can't see CS at a specific game time from match histories anywhere, even if you wanted to, its clear that you're the one making shit up. Where do you get this stuff? Wait, i don't care, just leave me alone instead of calling me a liar.
Chermorg (NA)
: I will point out that, unless I'm blind, you are conveniently cherrypicking information and leaving some out to try and make it look worse than it was. Your Azir only built tears in the last 3 minutes of the game. While that's not necessarily okay, it's hardly "full tear build azir who was legit running it down mid". The ADC doesn't look to have run it down at all. They were actively doing damage to champions (in fact the most on your team), and it's perfectly reasonable they may try a more aggressive approach than you would. One of her deaths was actually after the remake vote already would've been triggered and called (at 3 minutes in). There was only one nasus in the 4 games. He had 15 CS somewhere between 6-7 minutes, and by minute 12 he had 41-48. His CS during the game isn't the best, but it's hardly indicative of trolling as you try to make it. Now, I'm not saying you had 0 toxicity in any of those games. Yet, given that these stats are public info, as well as replays to at a minimum your friends list, and given the fact you've conveniently left out or fudged some of the information, I don't think it's out of the question you are misremembering most, if not all of this. Look, and you will find - as the adage goes. You were looking for toxicity in these games, or you at least looked back on them trying to find it. You certainly found it - but that doesn't mean it's reality.
> I will point out that, unless I'm blind, you are conveniently cherrypicking information and leaving some out to try and make it look worse than it was. Lol, Don't hit me with more of you. > Your Azir only built tears in the last 3 minutes of the game. While that's not necessarily okay, it's hardly "full tear build azir who was legit running it down mid". that's cute, you want the replay? Walks into the enemy team and stands there without so much as an auto attack. > The ADC doesn't look to have run it down at all. They were actively doing damage to champions (in fact the most on your team), and it's perfectly reasonable they may try a more aggressive approach than you would. One of her deaths was actually after the remake vote already would've been triggered and called (at 3 minutes in). And they took three tower shots with two deaths in those three minutes. Doing damage doesn't mean you can't be inting. Who's cherry picking now? > There was only one nasus in the 4 games. He had 15 CS somewhere between 6-7 minutes, and by minute 12 he had 41-48. His CS during the game isn't the best, but it's hardly indicative of trolling as you try to make it. He was afk under tower, and as advertised he had 15 cs at 12 min. I just double checked the replay. > Now, I'm not saying you had 0 toxicity in any of those games. Why is that at all indicitive of other people's behaviour? I am responsible for my behaviour, just as they are for theirs. Don't go off topic here. > Yet, given that these stats are public info, as well as replays to at a minimum your friends list, and given the fact you've conveniently left out or fudged some of the information, I don't think it's out of the question you are misremembering most, if not all of this. I haven't mis-rememberd or left out anything. Anyone can check this, as you say. > Look, and you will find - as the adage goes. You were looking for toxicity in these games, or you at least looked back on them trying to find it. You certainly found it - but that doesn't mean it's reality. I wasn't looking for toxicity in these games, not in the slightest. I went into my session actually quite happy and positive. Get out of here with your bullshit lately.
Rioter Comments
: Champ select pulls data from every league match to determine the most-played champions in that role *for the previous patch*. Because Pyke came out this patch, he has no "previous patch" data. Next patch he will be listed as a support, assuming people keep playing him there.
I would imagine that the first patch could be hard coded though. if (firstPatch) listAs= support else grabFromPreviousPatch(arguments)
: Why i feel the game still about bot lane and better adc?
My 15 cs @12 min Nasus from the last game would beg to differ.
Chermorg (NA)
: Aside from the shaco thread, there isn't a single well written, clear, and concise complaint backed by evidence. It's just rants and/or complaints that don't make any sense and aren't backed up by evidence.
Huh? Just more evidence that you need to read before running your mouth. If you aren't going to add anything constructive to this conversation then go away.
Chermorg (NA)
: Riot can't read the community's mind, and that's what the community wants, and that's what the community seems to expect. Until this changes and the community starts learning how to be clear and evidence based in their posts, you can't expect Riot to change.
They don't have to read the communities mind, you posted several threads that show that' isn't the case. This is an instance of riot having to read.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: You can't be an ass of a customer and expect of a company to know your needs from literally zero input. You can try to justify this with some reach-around argument on how the customer is always right but the reality is that no one is going to break their back finding out what your special needs are if you're not cooperating or communicating properly. And what's even worse is that it's not like people can't communicate properly, it's that they won't. Riot is willing to listen but no one can help these people if they first can't even help themselves. Giving proper feedback and pointing Riot in the right direction is infinitely better in getting to the bottom of things, if you're having with the game instead of being a pissant on the boards, thinking that yelling and throwing a temper tantrum is going to get you the answers you want. There are ways in limiting communication options for such people instead of resorting to fighting back and getting yourself fired. Either they understand the rules of engagement or they don't get the privilege to communicate with an official Rioter.
> Giving proper feedback and pointing Riot in the right direction is infinitely better in getting to the bottom of things, And Chermorg gave several examples of exactly that to no avail. If the company has no intention of engaging with reasonable discussions then that's exactly what breeds the problems of these boards. There's nothing left for us to do when large scale reasonable discussions get no attention, but whiny right through the counterstrike posts get attention immediately. We tried to give proper feedback for years and got no results. We aren't the ones limiting communication anymore, we tried long and hard but riot has shown no interest in that.
Chermorg (NA)
: The boards are akin to someone calling customer service, screaming that their computer doesn't work, demanding they send a whole new computer of the best caliper immediately, and then cussing them out when they try to ask what the problem is. Those people get hung up on easily. If you want people to discuss and work with you - actually formulate logical, clear, and concise arguments.
What a dismissive view of the boards coming from a mod. If that's your view of what the boards are and you have no other vision for what the boards could be then give up being a mod so other people can actually work to make this a better place. That's not what the boards could be, and if you read my first reply to you then you would realize how easily riot could encourage other types of posts. The Shaco megathread that you brought up is a perfect example of how easily riot could make this a better place, and how the boards aren't the whining complaining place you make them out to be.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=sixdogman,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AmAJkWMJ,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-06T17:56:21.591+0000) > > >The corollary is that means their job, that they spend 8 hours a day every day doing, is to assess when and why players are unhappy and address those issues. Uh, no. The very reason why someone's unhappy about League can always come from multiple other reasons, sometimes not even gameplay related. I can tell Riot that i hate Yasuo and that i just don't want him in the game but do you think anyone there should bend over on my whim and delete the champion? Of course not. Even if i had a good reason to ask for that, it may simply mean he's going to be put up for bigger gameplay changes or a rework in the future, not deleted per my request. It's Riot's job to balance the game for the benefit of everyone, not to specifically bend over for someone and meet their demands regardless if they have evidence to support their claims or not. >No one has to provide evidence or proof that they don't like something. Its the game designers job to find out why, that's what they get paid for. Again, no. You can come here and voice your discontent to your heart's content but if you're here complaining about something, then it surely means you know what you are complaining about and can actually explain it from your point of view? You don't have to have hard evidence to support your claims but an explanation regarding your problem is something that's going to give your "opinion" weight instead of blindly attacking something without even knowing how or even if it impacts you. Complaining for the sake of complaining or to "fit in" with the community of crybabies is the worst thing you can do and the easiest thing for you to make sure the developers don't take you seriously. It's not a developer's job to find specific reasons on why you think something about the game sucks for you. You can't come to Riot's Support Site and say that you have a technical problem that needs fixing but you refuse to disclose any information about it or give them your League's client logs while expecting of them to "find out themselves". They're just going to close your ticket until you're ready to communicate with them. >It isn't the players responsibility to perfectly articulate their problems. The players aren't professionals (i don't think those are LCS players smurfs or something), the devs are. The responsibility falls on both sides. You don't have to be a professional in order to comment on specific issues you have with League. But you do need to be somewhat specific and point RIot in the right direction. It's still astounding to me that the players don't accept any responsibility in giving proper feedback when they clearly have many ways and channels to provide it through.
> I can tell Riot that i hate Yasuo and that i just don't want him in the game but do you think anyone there should bend over on my whim and delete the champion? Of course not. Even if i had a good reason to ask for that, it may simply mean he's going to be put up for bigger gameplay changes or a rework in the future, not deleted per my request. Nowhere did i say that they have to bend to your every whim, in fact i say quite the opposite. They do have to at least try to understand the source of your frustration though. > It's still astounding to me that the players don't accept any responsibility in giving proper feedback when they clearly have many ways and channels to provide it through. My god i wish i could push my problems onto my customers the way you suggest here. If i were to go to my boss and say the customers are giving bad feedback i'd be outta here today because that's what being a professional is, taking responsibility for your product.
Chermorg (NA)
: Their job is to create the game, not repeatedly explain to a salty person unwilling to do their own research or logical thinking how the game works. Even popular threads do not always have a legitimate problem in them. Sometimes they don't deserve response because they've already been answered publicly or the "problem" is completely illogical.
Their job is to create a fun game, and if players are getting frustrated by the game then that's a failing on their part that they have to at least try to understand. Stop being dismissive of people's opinions because you think they're just salty sallies. Every player frustration is a problem because it means that the game wasn't fun for them. I'm sorry you see peoples frustration as illogical, but that's how human beings work, and emotions aren't always logical.
Wolfeur (EUW)
: Urgot's ult is 25% max HP, Pyke's ult is a flat amount. Also, how is the mobility great for Pyke? Blinking to a dead enemy is not always what you want… Pyke's also doesn't slow, and has a VERY short range compared to Urgot's. Urgot's also has an AoE fear.
You make good points. I'll point out that the slow on an ability that is executing you anyway isn't relevant (death is a harder cc than a slow), but i had forgotten about the fear.
Chermorg (NA)
: See, you've identified the problem: when multiple uninvolved and unemotional individuals misinterpret the threads intent, that's not a problem with them, but a problem with the OP and commenters being able to articulate their problems properly. Anyways, even if I did misinterpret, it doesn't change the fact virtually none of those threads provide any evidence whatsoever, and that's a problem too that you conveniently ignore (or I could've not spent enough time on it in my original reply, that may be my fault).
> See, you've identified the problem: when multiple uninvolved and unemotional individuals misinterpret the threads intent, that's not a problem with them, but a problem with the OP and commenters being able to articulate their problems properly. I disagree, specifically because the rioters in question are game designers. Their entire job is to make games that people enjoy. The corollary is that means their job, that they spend 8 hours a day every day doing, is to assess when and why players are unhappy and address those issues. They are professionals at this, and need to be able to read through the discontent to find the problem. When people are unhappy that's not an evidence thing, that's an emotion, and isn't subject to being wrong. No one has to provide evidence or proof that they don't like something. Its the game designers job to find out why, that's what they get paid for. Sometimes that means going into a thread and asking for follow up information that they need. It isn't the players responsibility to perfectly articulate their problems. The players aren't professionals (i don't think those are LCS players smurfs or something), the devs are. Passing over the thread that is highlighting problems, even if poorly articulated is them turning a blind eye to their profession. They don't have to make every change suggested by reddit (god i hope they don't) but they sure as hell have to be able to listen in order to even understand the problems the game has. The game designers have chosen this as what they want to do with their lives. If they aren't up for that task then i don't know what to say.
: You mean why didn't I watch a "why league is bad nao" video #267 and comment in a circle jerk thread about it? Cause I could.
You have no idea what points were even brought up in the video. Just because you can make an uninformed post doesn't mean you should.
Wolfeur (EUW)
: Did you complain about Urgot's ult?
Urgot's ult isn't also mobility that resets. I haven't played this patch yet so i don't have an opinion on pyke but if you're making the comparison to urgot ult pyke ult is overloaded.
Chermorg (NA)
: In addition to what Djinn said, I'd like to analyze why the top posts on the Boards home Hot section likely haven't gotten any responses: * [Invaded by sub discord](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oXuBBeWc-ah-invaded-by-the-shaco-subdiscord-again) Well, this really does kinda hit the nail on the head - many posts get vote-farmed, vote-brigaded, or otherwise manipulated into the hot section even when they are bullshit or not based in statistics. But alas, this thread doesn't really need a Riot response - it's just a valid complaint but not game related. * [Passive changes when they become item passive/actives](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JrE3EwzY-yasuos-passive-might-be-changed-because-everyone-can-have-it-but-wukongs-stone-skin-wont) This thread is making a complaint about something that the dev team has not said one way or another if they're even doing, and is discussing a *way* in the future change - like at least 2 patches away. The developer team has a longstanding habit of not commenting on every little thing they're considering patches away because a) it'd take too much time, and b) it'd give people so many false hopes of things that may be to come that never even get a moment's glance in the actual patch PBE testing/patch day release. * [Faker thoughts on matchmaking](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0Eh9X0dy-fakers-thoughts-on-matchmaking-kr-soloq) I see absolutely no reason why Riot should, for some reason, listen to one person who has no more insight into matchmaking than any player does. There is no reason that just because they're a pro player they deserve more attention or somehow deserve more of a response from Riot. Riot has done multiple (3 if I remember right) dev blogs completely and wholly on the subject of matchmaking, and answered multiple questions in Ask Riot about it as well. There's really no problems with matchmaking, and they've explained why these "apparent" problems exist and why players are wrong about them. I see no reason they should have to respond to yet another thread that's, quite frankly, garbage and refuses to acknowledge the facts. I will now skip a few to those that are directly game related: * [Rune path question](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/esVRllxP-why-is-presence-of-mind-in-the-precision-path-rather-than-the-sorcery-path) I wouldn't be surprised if Riot *did* respond to this one eventually, but if they don't, it's probably because they've had discussions around runes before and explained that there *is* crossover between pathways to make pathways not locked to a specific playstyle as much. For example, domination has the "Hunter" series of 4 runes that each could really be in other pathways, sorcery has multiple adaptive damage instead of just AP damage, precision has 3 different Legend runes, etc. * [Megathread on shaco](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2z9cKkra-megathread-lets-discuss-shaco) It's really hard to expect Riot to read a megathread. While megathreads are great for community discussion, you cannot honestly expect someone to take hours out of their day to read long discussions that are all separate from each other on a megathread. The way to get the developers attention is to make a concise and clear post regarding a specific issue, and to back that up with statistics/evidence. * ["feels" like games are over fast](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/X1na4fnc-it-feels-like-90-of-games-this-season-are-over-by-10-15-minutes) A simple google shows that this is wrong, and in fact it's virtually impossible for a game to end before 15 minute early surrender. Posts that use hyperbole like this are not likely to get Riot attention - if they use hyperbole and exaggerate in the title, why would anyone assume they're not going to do it in the post itself? Hyperbole does not make for good discussion and resolving of issues. * [Tired of change](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/U43pqW99-im-tired-of-change-not-game) Again, this is something that Riot's already addressed constantly - new players and old players alike have continually told Riot in surveys that they would like to continue to see reworks, graphics/voice overhauls, new champions, new jungles, and just change in general. The majority of players think change and new features make the game *better*. A thread with 100 upvotes on the boards is not somehow going to change this. The thread itself is basically a rant by the OP - there's no reason for Riot to respond to a rant. Now, if someone made a thread identifying **why** this change is feeling bad to these 100 people, and proposing a solution to continue to make change but not have it feel as bad, while still having it feel good to others, then that thread likely would be seen by Riot. ---- Now, some analysis as a whole. Many times the community thinks upvotes will get change. That's not how Riot operates. Riot fully understands some players will have legitimate concerns. The issue is that players are, bluntly, quite shit at actually voicing their concerns appropriately. If you have an issue with a traffic ticket, do you just start cussing out the cop on the side of the road? No. Do you go to court, start screaming, not show them any evidence, then storm out and say "well they didn't revoke the ticket WAAAHH"? No. You go calmly to court, and professionally present your side of things, **WITH EVIDENCE**. This is what 90%+ of the threads on gameplay and other boards related to the game are lacking - evidence. Players think by screaming loud enough they'll make change happen - but you saying it's a problem doesn't actually make it one. A good example is Faker's matchmaking comments - even this professional player was misinformed and misguided on matchmaking, and there's no reason Riot should respond to that when the player didn't even do their research and actually provide evidence for their outlandish claims. Lastly, I'd like to point out, OP, that you are exemplifying this sort of behavior that causes Riot to not want to respond to a thread. Immediately accusing them of mistakes and passively aggressively attacking them *with no evidence* is the problem, and that's exactly what you've done in this thread.
Your first link is 404. Did the thread get removed? The second one is a continued problem of there being forgotten and ignored champions, and the specificity of it being a Wukong main talking about Wukong or the fact that it is yasuo getting attention again shouldn't deter rioters from engaging in the problem. Its a long standing problem that needs discussion if we are ever going to find a solution. The specifics of the changes and the timing of those changes are irrelevant to the point that some champions get constant attention from devs while others don't. The third one quoting faker isn't about one player, but an underlying frustration with matchmaking and an attempt to bring up the discussion. Faker is simply used to give the discussion some validity because every skill tier is having problems with it, this isn't just a low elo problem. The recent dev blogs describe how it currently works, but conveniently ignores the problems that the current implementation of the matchmaking system has had for years. As for the rune path question its very telling that they are still addressing problems to the rune system 8 months after release. They have certainly talked about it a lot but it doesn't seem they have taken anything away from those discussions because in those posts they are talking at us instead of listening. In short there's more to be discussed. The Megathread i agree with you, but they can at least pop in and say thanks for the feedback because that thread has quite a bit of good discussion. The lack of interaction with threads like that comes across as an impression that they don't value that kind of discussion, so that's why we don't get it on the boards. If they want to foster those kinds of discussion threads then they need to show some support for it, and showing at least some support is trivially easy. The 15 min game post has more to do with the fact that snowballing is in such a state that the games may not actually end at 15 min, but they are decided at that point and the rest of the game is a formality. This has been an impression given many times for years with no answer, and the inability to see beyond the actual game times (which have phases which only serve to increase game time instead of having an impact on game outcome) to understand the underlying problems of game pacing is the problem. If they would interact with the discussion they could see beyond the black and white of average game length to understand the problem, but they don't. The change aversion thread is one that is displaying not a problem with reworks, but the continued forcing of meta shifts and riot's removal of strategies. Riot has talked about this recently but how they address meta problems and how they create meta problems is something that has been going on for years and merits more discussion. TL:DR - you misrepresented and/or misunderstood the underlying problems some of these these threads bring up, as i suspect riot does as well. These are nuanced problems that require discussion in order to fully understand, and not engaging with discussions because of superficial problems in their presentation isn't helping anyone. What would help would be being less dismissive of points brought up and more supportive of constructive discussion. That would go a long way to improving the state of the boards.
: I didn’t watch the video
Why would you comment on the thread without even looking at what the content is?
: My take. > 1- Why exactly the big hatred?!? At the time when I worked on World of Warcraft, Blizzard developers had a pretty low social presence. The two lead designers, Kaplan and Chilton, posted occasionally, but the rest of the blue posts were really from the community team. Overall, the way the WoW team communicated to players was through actions not words. If you wanted to know if Blizzard though druids were too strong, you'd wait for the next patch notes. Before I went to Blizzard, I worked at Ensemble Studios on Age of Empires for 10 (!) years. I enjoyed talking to players as part of that job. I felt like it made me a better developer because I could ask questions directly and get more detail and nuance. (Note this was entirely in English, which remains a weakness of this approach.) Suddenly, WoW players were getting a lot more direct communication with a developer than they were used to. Many of them might not know a single person on the WoW development team other than me. There is this human desire to target another human rather than generically target a company, with reactions that are both and bad. So if there was something players liked, I received credit whether I deserved it or not. If there was something players didn't like, I received blame whether I deserved it or not. This being the internet, there was always a lot of the latter. :) Also note that I was never even the lead designer on WoW (my title was closest to assistant lead, but I shared that role with 1-2 other designers most of the time). Any decisions I made would have to be approved by the game director and production director. Blizzard being Blizzard, I was certainly not able to ram my personal pet projects, petty notions about the way games should be made, or bad ideas into the game. There is a Blizzard or even a WoW design philosophy, and at most one can influence that philosophy, not dictate it. But if you played a warlock, and you saw warlock nerfs, and Ghostcrawler posted about why we wanted to change dot scaling, then it was easy (if not completely accurate) to connect the dots. >2- What are the mistakes he did? I have made a lot of mistakes in my career, as anyone with a long career has. As I mentioned above, a lot of the things the community might consider mistakes were things that the development team (or at least the leaders of the development team) agreed upon, so in that sense these weren't decisions that I was solely responsible for. But as part of those leadership teams, I'm perfectly comfortable taking the blame. What rubs me the wrong way though is when a single person is given, by the community, that much influence over a product that is developed by hundreds of people. It's just not fair to all of those other developers who pour their soul into their work. If I sound defensive at times, it's trying to raise the visibility of all of those who work really hard to do the right thing, but remain transparent to many players. I think overall it works better at Riot, where players know the names of lots of Riot developers, so we seem more like a company of real humans than a corporate entity with one or two known spokespeople. That isn't intended as a swipe against Blizzard, because they've also figured out ways for developers to communicate a lot more to players these days. I also *did* just want to list some of the many, many mistakes I've made over the years, in the interest of being open. It would take a lot of detail to explore any of these, so these bullets may be frustratingly terse. :( * First, a lot of the mistakes I've made, players have never seen, because they were thankfully caught by colleagues, betas or playtesters before they were foisted upon the community. * Other mistakes get really personal (and therefore need to be kept private), such as hiring people I should not have, or firing people slower than I should have, or trusting the wrong people to get things done (or not trusting the right people). * Early in my career, I made the mistake of trying to imagine that I was a proxy for the player base. If I played a certain way or had a certain value, then lots of players should probably feel the same way, right? You can see this with my early approach to randomness in game design. I am comfortable with randomness as a player and view it as an obstacle to overcome, but I know now that not everyone sees that way. * Also early in my career, I fell in love too much with my ideas and wasn't as objective with outside feedback as I should have been. For example, I was insistent upon using Joan of Arc as the first campaign in Age of Kings, when part of the company wanted to use William Wallace instead. I pushed a fantasy story for the Age of Empires 3 campaign, instead of a historical recreation as our previous campaigns had been. * The WoW Death Knight was one of my first projects at Blizzard. I was attempting to solve a problem I perceived in WoW at the time, which was having dedicated tanking and DPS talent trees. With the DK, I tried to let players tank in any of the 3 trees. It mostly worked, but was a lot of upkeep for the team, and when the design problem was solved a different way (though the dual-spec feature) the DK talents then had to be redesigned. * Another early feature I did for WoW was hunter pet talents. The goal was noble, but the feature didn't actually add any depth because it was very solve-able. I'm not sure if there are even any vestiges left of hunter pet talents in the game. * When we launched the Cataclysm expansion, I championed making dungeons more challenging, because I was worried about the resonance (and therefore longevity) of dungeons that players could just blast through without coordination. I think this was the right call, but we didn't offer any alternatives for players who did enjoy a lower stress way to play. * I also championed Raid Finder based on the success of Dungeon Finder, but the implementation was pretty flawed, and encouraged players to just bail from any group that wiped rather than trying to solve the boss as a puzzle. This led to us having to tune Raid Finder down so much that the raid was more of a tourist mode rather than an epic experience. * Switching to LoL, I argued strongly for the champion roster project, under the belief that we could only solve a bunch of health issues with older champions by working on several at once. This eventually kind of devolved into just doing normal updates in groups of champs at a time (say a few ADCs at once), and some of those were not even particularly good updates. And of course, we really didn't fix the problem of having older champs with unhealthy play patterns or classes without really sharp strengths and weaknesses. * We built Dynamic Queue with the noble goal of letting players play with their friends and form premades more akin to the esports that we keep saying LoL players should aspire to be. But we were a little tone-deaf with our messaging, and it felt to a lot of players like we were telling them they were playing the game wrong if they valued a solo experience, or even valued competitive integrity over the ability to play as a group. I think we are tackling the problem much better in the new Clash feature (launch problems aside). * I don't want to throw players of these champions under the bus, so I won't name names, but there are a couple that I could tell were not trending well in development. I kept giving the teams feedback when I should have taken a more proactive role in forcing changes (or possibly even killing the project). * I could go on and on. I've made a lot of mistakes. I've done a lot of things I am proud of as well, but that's not the topic here. :) >3- How the hell did a marine biologist end up in developing games?!?!? I have been making video games for 20 years now, so I feel I am as qualified as anyone at this point. So the real question was whether I was qualified to make games in my first year on Age of Empires, and the answer is no. At the time, there were very few college programs in game design, and while there are more around today, the vast majority of designers we hire at Riot come with no education in game development. I applied to Ensemble looking for a junior position with no experience. I answered a want-ad, as one does. I think technically it was an interview with one of the designers saying they were looking to grow. They liked my application and I did well in the interviews, and thankfully, they took a chance on me. There were some skills that crossed over from oceanography to game design, but not many. The most valuable are probably communication skills and the ability to interpret data. I drew more heavily on my hobby of having played 1000s of hours of games.
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: I Blame Patch 3.9!
Yes, riot is still struggling with issues which are not new or novel. Are we surprised about this? They continue to not learn lessons from their past mistakes.
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sixdogman

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