: Well that doesn't match reallity since I see pro play and Mages are still played bot sometimes, and also they are played on soloQ eventually. I wish that mages were **unviable** on Botlane, you can trust me on that but the problem is that are not. >Heimerdinger has many aimed skills. That makes him a skilled champ 100%, in fact, Lux is harder to play than Ryze because he has a point and click root and she has all skillshots right ?
> [{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UV6c4V9Y,comment-id=001500000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-02T23:28:58.697+0000) > > Well that doesn't match reallity since I see pro play and Mages are still played bot sometimes, and also they are played on soloQ eventually. > > I wish that mages were **unviable** on Botlane, you can trust me on that but the problem is that are not. > > That makes him a skilled champ 100%, in fact, Lux is harder to play than Ryze because he has a point and click root and she has all skillshots right ? "Sometimes" Instead of anecdotes look up the numbers. Mages are a statistical irrelevancy bot lane along with everything that isn't a freaking marksmen. You can't escape hard numbers and facts. Also ryze has comboing and an aimed move that can easily be blocked by minions and the like as his main source of damage. Another strawman.
: Exactly, I'm extremly sad that the variety of Heimerdinger Fiddlesticks Botlane is gone, that was truly the pinnacle of skill expression, League of Legends could only go downhill after that.
> [{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UV6c4V9Y,comment-id=0015000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-02T23:18:17.447+0000) > > Exactly, I'm extremly sad that the variety of Heimerdinger Fiddlesticks Botlane is gone, that was truly the pinnacle of skill expression, League of Legends could only go downhill after that. Heimerdinger has many aimed skills. Same cannot be said for you sitting and right clicking people with unmissable attacks. That's a total strawman too, you saw some ryze bot lane as well. Too bad riot killed diversity before we could see where it would go thanks to people like you only wanting adc monopoly 24/7
: Still can't believe they're going through with Morgana damage nerfs.
Typical riot garbage. Don't nerf vayne or overtuned adcs right clicking people and killing them in three shots. Nerf the mage who was in the sidelines for so long because she's finally useful. So glad I don't play this game anymore. They don't care about anything besides esport trash, streamers and "right click outplay".
: ARUF
URF was the only thing causing me to still play this game. Now that it's gone I guess I am as well.
: >Ever since that one patch where we saw a few mages bot its been nothing but big marskmen buffs since then to push everything else out Good
> [{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UV6c4V9Y,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2019-04-02T13:33:33.433+0000) > > Good Yeah dude who needs meaningful variety or anything lets just have the game revolve around right clickers
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Anyone realized that Jinx has 55% win rate and 18% pick rate?
No one cares, this is league of adcs. Pretty much given up on this trash ever being balanced or ever seeing diversity in this game Ever since that one patch where we saw a few mages bot its been nothing but big marskmen buffs since then to push everything else out
GigglesO (NA)
: @Riot Why Not Buff Tank items?
"tank meta again" why is it whenever you have lots of tanks it's a "tank meta" but when you have adc right clicker in bot EVERY GAME for years no one calls it an adc meta? Such a ridiculous hypocrisy and double standard. Tanks are garbage and useless right now because how overtuned damage is, ESPECIALLY with adc.
: would you play a vintage league ? one of the first versions of the game.
Id try it. I got into league a long time ago playing just crystal scar, I'd like to try those days again being a bit older and paying more attention.
The Iceberg (EUNE)
: Can riot actually make a patch where they nerf ranged champions?
Melee will never be allowed to be comparatively good on this game. I'm convinced of it. If you ever see a melee champ capable of taking the adc role all the pros and streamers will whine and cry that their right click outplay isn't the only thing bot and it will get nerfed. Guaranteed every time. Even saw the same thing with mages.
: If I don't see the f*cking phantom hit removed or vayne nerfed into oblivion next patch I'm done.
ADC "big lcs outplay right click" champs like vayne are allowed to be busted even though people say she has a "high skill" champion. Imagine if a mage high skill champion like ryze had 50+ percent win rate. They'd nerf him to oblivion. People will circlejerk vayne and pretend like this crap is okay then close their ears and say it's fine champs like ryze have 43 percent WR....
: Tanks aren't allowed to be viable in their own god damn lane.
You can literally go full tank and still get bursted down by a right clicker in 4 seconds. What a time.
: Why is lifesteal equally effective for ranged and melee characters? Should it be different?
Yes. On this game there is no effective way to play a melee carry in bot for instance, because it's garbage compared to range. There is no real benefit you get from being melee over range in this game. It makes right click ad range far too preferable over melee. Buffing the lifesteal for melee wouldn't be enough to get them on par but it would be a start.
: No one loves assassins coming from the fog of war and killing you in 0,1 seconds with their burst. No one loves juggernauts being able to waltz through your team, killing everyone who dares to take a single step too close to them, No one loves enchanters point&click shield spamming their allies and deny kills that way. They all still exist and have a right to.
> [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PV5w9bXy,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-03-31T15:41:23.613+0000) > > No one loves assassins coming from the fog of war and killing you in 0,1 seconds with their burst. > No one loves juggernauts being able to waltz through your team, killing everyone who dares to take a single step too close to them, > No one loves enchanters point&click shield spamming their allies and deny kills that way. > > They all still exist and have a right to. Except your precious adc right click out play is the only one that is required and present in every single game. adc stomps the floor with the other roles in pick rate alone that is evident.
: With all of number nerfs to lethality but little ADC itemization nerfs, game is getting boring fast
This board thinks its fine that bot is 99 percent adc and always the deciding factor and main force. They think it's fine for years you have to build entire team around adc, they think it's fine that there will never be diversity bot, they think it's fine you can get 3 shot from range with unmissable autos. The adc circlejerk is the reason this game has been ruined.
: Hp heavy tanks are getting buffed like Mundo and Cho gath, meanwhile Vayne...
She will never be fixed because we have to have those 1337 streamer adcs and pro players right click outplay penta kill with one mouse button. Remember the crying from one pro if she was ever in line would drown out all else and riot would fix for their $$$$$
Yenn (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vMccI0MQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-19T04:01:25.005+0000) > > trivial? Running straight into a late game right clicker isnt trivial Proccing Phase Rush on the front lines and running into a late game right clicker while being untargetable and moving at 700 MS is trivial.
> [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vMccI0MQ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-03-19T04:17:39.943+0000) > > Proccing Phase Rush on the front lines and running into a late game right clicker while being untargetable and moving at 700 MS is trivial. He has ONE attack he can use in W and W and all his moves also hurt him, and if he builds defensive at all to last outside of W he won't do damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vMccI0MQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-19T04:01:25.005+0000) > > trivial? Running straight into a late game right clicker isnt trivial He can charge his E while in W and then let it off, literally aoe nuking you for a bunch while untargetable and gaining 700 ms with phase rush.
> [{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vMccI0MQ,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-03-19T04:28:00.094+0000) > > He can charge his E while in W and then let it off, literally aoe nuking you for a bunch while untargetable and gaining 700 ms with phase rush. Yes if he is close enough where he can get in range with just w he deserves to get an aoe nuke off. He's not even very strong right now and you have to get your R off whilst outside of w anyway to be useful. I cant imagine complaining about vlad while some right clicker sits behind their team and right clicks for the same damage he does lmao
Yenn (NA)
: Vladimir really needs more counterplay in late game team fights
trivial? Running straight into a late game right clicker isnt trivial
: No, there wasn't "champion diversity", it was just a different class hoarding botlane. If mages are forcing out ADCs, there's no diversity, it's just mages forcing out ADCs. If bruisers are forcing out ADCs, it's not diversity, it's just bruisers forcing out ADCs.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AkRE3rjf,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-17T12:09:33.259+0000) > > No, there wasn't "champion diversity", it was just a different class hoarding botlane. > > If mages are forcing out ADCs, there's no diversity, it's just mages forcing out ADCs. If bruisers are forcing out ADCs, it's not diversity, it's just bruisers forcing out ADCs. >hoarding funny word for still being an extreme minority. ADCs were never a minority in the bot lane, no surprise to still see you here defending adcs vehemently. This garbage has already runned me off this game, wonder how many others it has as well?
FFrazien (EUW)
: @RiotRepertoir Can you say the same for Vayne?
nerf adcs? Lol 99 percent picked bot cant let there actually be real diversity there!
: Adc itemization is way too strong, IE is a bit overtuned and this crit damage is not really healthy.
Dont worry dude cas has a .24 percent pick rate bot that means adcs need another buff too much diversity!
DerPunkt (EUW)
: Yes that is what I call in the verge of disappearing. Marksman have no other position they can fill (not including the very rarely seen and very specific mid picks) and while they were next to exclusively picked bot, it was massively reduced for some time. Also where do you get your 95%? Your a~~ is not a reliable source. When an animal that exclusively leaves in a part of the world starts to lose its territory to a invasive species we call it on the verge of disappearing. And this is what we saw right after 8.11. There was a very strong decline in Marksman picks. Riot was very fast to correct this and as you can see if you'd read my paragraph unprejudiced you would recognize its past tense. It seems it is a reflex to bash people defending the existence of Marksman in the game. Marksman WERE on the verge of disappearing. They never startet to really disappear nor are they still in this state. We saw an initial decline and the game was adjusted accordingly to not alienate a big chunk of players. You have to remember. A little more than 1/5 of players plays ADC, they don't play Marksman but ADC and ADC was exclusively Marksman thus they basically had to only play Marksman. Thats why I say it was on the verge of disappearing and that is a bad thing. Now they are weaker than before and open up some other options and that is a good thing. But making the whole pool of 1/5 of players useless initially was not the smartest move. And you have to not misunderstand me here, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. I personally like the Marksman playstyle and most of the specific champs I just like, for some random reason, are marksman. So diversity is cool. I'd just like to still play some of the champs I have played for years now. I am used to playing losing lanes due to meta shifts. I played Viktor when he was dogs* before his rework. I still love to play Vi or Nautilus in jungle even though they are considered weak. I Like to play none meta weak stuff. But when every single pick of your's is considered a weak pick it is tough, and going down from next to exclusive to 80+ as you said within ONE patch is kinda a hard decline and can be considered to be on the verge of disappearing. So there is/was a justified fear of basically having nothing to play until is found a new play style that I like. Which can be tough. When you like something you don't just settle for the next best thing. You like one thing it goes, more often than not you now have nothing you like instead of the next best thing you like a little less. I say it again. Marksman **WERE** on the **VERGE** of disappearing. I marked the important words so try to read it that way. And I am pretty sure. ADC could literally deal 1/10 of the DMG another role does and you would still find people arguing they are to strong for being a ranged champion.
> [{quoted}](name=DerPunkt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T10:39:18.636+0000) > > Yes that is what I call in the verge of disappearing. Marksman have no other position they can fill (not including the very rarely seen and very specific mid picks) and while they were next to exclusively picked bot, it was massively reduced for some time. Also where do you get your 95%? Your a~~ is not a reliable source. > When an animal that exclusively leaves in a part of the world starts to lose its territory to a invasive species we call it on the verge of disappearing. And this is what we saw right after 8.11. There was a very strong decline in Marksman picks. Riot was very fast to correct this and as you can see if you'd read my paragraph unprejudiced you would recognize its past tense. It seems it is a reflex to bash people defending the existence of Marksman in the game. Marksman WERE on the verge of disappearing. They never startet to really disappear nor are they still in this state. We saw an initial decline and the game was adjusted accordingly to not alienate a big chunk of players. You have to remember. A little more than 1/5 of players plays ADC, they don't play Marksman but ADC and ADC was exclusively Marksman thus they basically had to only play Marksman. > Thats why I say it was on the verge of disappearing and that is a bad thing. Now they are weaker than before and open up some other options and that is a good thing. But making the whole pool of 1/5 of players useless initially was not the smartest move. > And you have to not misunderstand me here, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. I personally like the Marksman playstyle and most of the specific champs I just like, for some random reason, are marksman. So diversity is cool. I'd just like to still play some of the champs I have played for years now. I am used to playing losing lanes due to meta shifts. I played Viktor when he was dogs* before his rework. I still love to play Vi or Nautilus in jungle even though they are considered weak. I Like to play none meta weak stuff. But when every single pick of your's is considered a weak pick it is tough, and going down from next to exclusive to 80+ as you said within ONE patch is kinda a hard decline and can be considered to be on the verge of disappearing. So there is/was a justified fear of basically having nothing to play until is found a new play style that I like. Which can be tough. When you like something you don't just settle for the next best thing. You like one thing it goes, more often than not you now have nothing you like instead of the next best thing you like a little less. > > I say it again. Marksman **WERE** on the **VERGE** of disappearing. > > I marked the important words so try to read it that way. > > And I am pretty sure. ADC could literally deal 1/10 of the DMG another role does and you would still find people arguing they are to strong for being a ranged champion. Again. Look up the numbers, marksmen in the bot lane role were still practically the only game in town. Having them still with an 80+ percent pick rate in the peak of diverse bot lane tells you all you need to know. Not to mention you have some marksmen who can be played in other roles. Like graves, twitch at times, kai sa when she came out, lucian, corki etc. If you saw the game allow more diversity in roles you would likely see marksmen appear more often in other roles as well. Including the ability to compare marksmen with other classes and roles instead of just having them be compared to marksmen bot laners every time. It would allow more fair balancing and the roles and classes to be compared in their strengths of the game as a whole not just their strengths compared opposite to the other champs who fill that role.
saltran (EUW)
: So your idea of balance is having botlane totally open to anyone while leaving adcs go to solo lanes/jungle ? I mean, for the second part to happen you have to basically rework at least half of the marksmans.
> [{quoted}](name=saltran,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=000400010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-12-18T10:02:34.403+0000) > > So your idea of balance is having botlane totally open to anyone while leaving adcs go to solo lanes/jungle ? > > I mean, for the second part to happen you have to basically rework at least half of the marksmans. No? I want adcs to be able to be played in multiple roles along with all kinds of classes being able to be played in multiple roles.
: > [{quoted}](name=MiD Enforcer,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2018-12-18T07:23:51.153+0000) > > Luciano is viable in all lane but I mean he's balance now luci is not the only adc! if you want to make other roles come into the botlane then ALL adc's need to be able to go somewhere else, tris, jinx, ashe, other roles get multiple lanes, adcs should too, its only fair. > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T07:30:03.957+0000) > > No problem as long as they treat the class fairly and on the same level as every other one I have no problem with added flexibility cool! my only problem when people start talking about diversity is that thier diversity is "make adc's unplayable and let us play mid laners in a second lane" which isn't ok! but you don't seem to be doing that.
> [{quoted}](name=AugustHeatHaze,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T07:35:39.020+0000) > > luci is not the only adc! if you want to make other roles come into the botlane then ALL adc's need to be able to go somewhere else, tris, jinx, ashe, other roles get multiple lanes, adcs should too, its only fair. > > cool! my only problem when people start talking about diversity is that thier diversity is "make adc's unplayable and let us play mid laners in a second lane" which isn't ok! but you don't seem to be doing that. Nope I want multiple champions to be playable in very many roles. I think if they did that then the game would be better balanced. Marksmen would no longer have their strength only compared to other marksmen and be the ONLY option for bot lane carry and there would also be option to have more varied playstyles with marksmens.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-12-18T00:56:26.350+0000) > > Welcome to league of adcs. > > Been saying it for years. Riot made one good patch that went in the right direction with actual diversity bot lane and just reverted it the very next patch. ADC mains ruined this game and it seems like it will never have an actual flexible meta or anything but right clickers dominating. flexible would be great ! let adc's go to other roles ! id love to play tristana top, mid or even jungle!
> [{quoted}](name=AugustHeatHaze,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-12-18T06:11:05.105+0000) > > flexible would be great ! let adc's go to other roles ! id love to play tristana top, mid or even jungle! No problem as long as they treat the class fairly and on the same level as every other one I have no problem with added flexibility
Poske (EUNE)
: I like how there are 0 complaints on boards about Cammile
50.68 winrate under 2 percent pickrate wow so #busted
DerPunkt (EUW)
: >i dont see any compensation nerfs this patch. just all around buffs. >marksmen early game was nerfed for a reason, In what world do these statements not contradict each other? The marksman role was hit so hard by the nerf that it was on the verge of disappearing and being replaced by more APCaster types. So they had to be buffed to a level where they could at least exists. 3/4 are still not relevant, and everybody is crying about the considered OP rest. I don't get it. A Zed is allowed to kill any Marksmen with not even his whole rotation and gets a pretty far range jump on his ult which has a fairly low CD. But Lucian who actually needs a full roatition with AAs in between to kill anything is a problem? I actually don't get it. Lucian is freaking irrelevant in late game. Yes you can not faceroll him within the first 25 minutes as the rest of the Marksman, but after that he just becomes fodder in TF. Kai'sa on the other hand... just unhealthy. I love playing her. But I abso-fucking-lutely get why she should not exist. A DPS champ should not have that much movement. Just no. I understand every complaint aimed at Kai'sa... but Lucian? I hate that guys, he is a pain in the a** I hate laning against him I hate playing him. But he is very much beatable. Don't freaking die. Give up some CS and you catch up around minute 20. From there on you will start to just dominate him with most other carries. Or just ask your friendly neighbourhood assassin to point an click delete him.
> [{quoted}](name=DerPunkt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T00:44:22.259+0000) > > In what world do these statements not contradict each other? > > The marksman role was hit so hard by the nerf that it was on the verge of disappearing and being replaced by more APCaster types. So they had to be buffed to a level where they could at least exists. 3/4 are still not relevant, and everybody is crying about the considered OP rest. > > I don't get it. A Zed is allowed to kill any Marksmen with not even his whole rotation and gets a pretty far range jump on his ult which has a fairly low CD. But Lucian who actually needs a full roatition with AAs in between to kill anything is a problem? I actually don't get it. Lucian is freaking irrelevant in late game. Yes you can not faceroll him within the first 25 minutes as the rest of the Marksman, but after that he just becomes fodder in TF. > > Kai'sa on the other hand... just unhealthy. I love playing her. But I abso-fucking-lutely get why she should not exist. A DPS champ should not have that much movement. Just no. I understand every complaint aimed at Kai'sa... but Lucian? I hate that guys, he is a pain in the a** I hate laning against him I hate playing him. But he is very much beatable. Don't freaking die. Give up some CS and you catch up around minute 20. From there on you will start to just dominate him with most other carries. Or just ask your friendly neighbourhood assassin to point an click delete him. "on the verge of disappearing" man I love adc main hyperbole. If that's what you call currently being 95+ percent of whats picked bot lane and even 80+ percent during the time when riot actually tried to introduce diversity "on the verge of disappearing" then I guess now they're still endangered to you.
: Why not...instead of buffing every ADC in the game and make them toxic, nerf lucain?
Welcome to league of adcs. Been saying it for years. Riot made one good patch that went in the right direction with actual diversity bot lane and just reverted it the very next patch. ADC mains ruined this game and it seems like it will never have an actual flexible meta or anything but right clickers dominating.
nelogis (EUW)
: Are you not familiar with the Ryze / Azir / Kalista syndrome? Ryze is a solid pick in high elo, very solid, his 45% winrate keeps him away from being literally pick or ban in high elo, same with Azir but his winrate is being inflated by one tricks right now since his total playrate is around 1%. If Ryze or Azir had 48.5% winrate with a 9% playrate they would be beyond busted in high elo. And no, telling me that people like playing Akali is nowhere near reason enough to justify her current situation. You don't play something in ranked while having a 40% winrate with it because it's "fun to play", especially not if you actually care about your rank. Akali shares to some extend the same problems as Ryze / Azir / Kalista, so unfortunately (not really) she also has to endure the same BS they have to endure, which means, making her unviable in normal play UNLESS you do a mini rework that brings her skill-ceiling down.
> [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=0002000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-17T09:14:59.884+0000) > > Are you not familiar with the Ryze / Azir / Kalista syndrome? > > Ryze is a solid pick in high elo, very solid, his 45% winrate keeps him away from being literally pick or ban in high elo, same with Azir but his winrate is being inflated by one tricks right now since his total playrate is around 1%. > > If Ryze or Azir had 48.5% winrate with a 9% playrate they would be beyond busted in high elo. > > And no, telling me that people like playing Akali is nowhere near reason enough to justify her current situation. > You don't play something in ranked while having a 40% winrate with it because it's "fun to play", especially not if you actually care about your rank. > > Akali shares to some extend the same problems as Ryze / Azir / Kalista, so unfortunately (not really) she also has to endure the same BS they have to endure, which means, making her unviable in normal play UNLESS you do a mini rework that brings her skill-ceiling down. She has even lower than ryze and none of her winrates even with people who are very experienced are extravagant. Is she as hard to play as ryze or azir? I think no, but maybe. Ryze also needs something. only a very small amount of really good players can make him work but that isn't saying much since if youre that good at ryze at that high of a level you can make ANYTHING work. Again, if you check ryze on say, champion gg, and look at win rate by games played you see he isn't even that extravagant there either. For instance I believe Annie has higher stats with experienced players than he does. Kalista also boasts quite significantly better figures than both akali and ryze
AjXtar (EUW)
: their pick rate is not important when you consider the fact that mages are doing better as an adc than adc its self and even challengers are complaining about that. Also, mages supports have high pick rate.
> [{quoted}](name=AjXtar,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d6aEi3kr,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-17T07:46:57.443+0000) > > their pick rate is not important when you consider the fact that mages are doing better as an adc than adc its self and even challengers are complaining about that. > > Also, mages supports have high pick rate. "their pick rate is not important when you consider the fact that mages are doing better as an adc than adc its self and even challengers are complaining about that." NO they are not. The numbers show this. It isn't even close. Even if they did have a higher winrate when you're talking about something that might have a .5 percent sample size you don't have enough to compare it to. Mages do NOT outperform adcs in the bot lane carry role and the only people who are saying that are horrifically biased adc mains crying like they always do and ignoring stats. People like tyler1 for instance, who I'm sure has said something along those lines.
: After seeing that Vayne buff, I'm glad I quit the game
I quit for a long time due to being upset at the stagnation and lack of diversity namely in bot lane, came back during the patch where they tried to add diversity bot lane and then it got destroyed the very next patch. So far I can only stomach mostly blitz and aram.
AjXtar (EUW)
: Not the strongest? Why they are the strongest in 3 roles then and why is the marksman necessary every game when mages can do what adc can do, but better since riot gave them the possibility to deal more damage to towers.
> [{quoted}](name=AjXtar,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d6aEi3kr,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-17T07:41:58.946+0000) > > Not the strongest? Why they are the strongest in 3 roles then and why is the marksman necessary every game when mages can do what adc can do, but better since riot gave them the possibility to deal more damage to towers. Youre kidding? Every role besides bot lane carry has enough diversity where all sorts of class types are viable in it, mages can't play the adc role as evidence by the highest pick rate non adc bot laner not even having a 1 percent pickrate.
: If I don't ban Akali and the enemy picks her.
oh no they picked the lowest winrate mid laner in the game!
AjXtar (EUW)
: Mages on the other hand always have been at the top or second place. Even when had the crazy ardent meta, mages were still damn strong, but the moment bruisers are strong everyone is acting like bruisers are problem while mages are the strongest in 3 lanes.
> [{quoted}](name=AjXtar,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d6aEi3kr,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-17T07:14:10.322+0000) > > Mages on the other hand always have been at the top or second place. Even when had the crazy ardent meta, mages were still damn strong, but the moment bruisers are strong everyone is acting like bruisers are problem while mages are the strongest in 3 lanes. Not strong, picked for utility and control or mixed damage. Though you could have mixed damage with many adcs that were on hit. Mages aren't the strongest, you dont even have to have a mage in your game. Meanwhile marksmen adc is a required pick every single time. Not to mention as well mages have to aim to hit their abilities, have far more opportunity for outplay than auto attack based champions.
Rexxiee (NA)
: Hashinshin : Nerf mages, buff adcs
"buff adcs" jesus christ. lets buff the one class/role combo thats so strong no one else can even fill the role.
: A hot dumpster fire named Kog'maw
Kog maw has a near 52 percent winrate now and is very good with a strong support combo.
: am not sure why bother building more than 1 or 2 tank items
I agree. I used to like playing tanks too but I don't see what the point is anymore. 6k thrown into damage items on a character that can kill is far more effective than shoving it into stats that do nothing besides help you live a second longer.
AjXtar (EUW)
: Why are bruisers a problem, but mages are not
everything is a problem besides the almighty marksmen. thankfully based rito is buffing vayne !
: key words "Up To" . It's how it works mathematically. You can not see what WOULD have happened unless riot records that somewhere. Instead, you can predict the MAXIMUM VALUE that it might have if the pick and ban values equal 100%, the champion is literally pick or ban within draft picking, but the value of the champion increases or decreases in proportion to the ban rate 1% with 50% ban rate = 2% pick rate , 1% with 90% ban rate = 10% pick rate , 1% with 99% ban rate = 100% pick rate
> [{quoted}](name=3TWarrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=000800000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-16T23:55:26.686+0000) > > key words "Up To" . It's how it works mathematically. You can not see what WOULD have happened unless riot records that somewhere. Instead, you can predict the MAXIMUM VALUE that it might have > > if the pick and ban values equal 100%, the champion is literally pick or ban within draft picking, but the value of the champion increases or decreases in proportion to the ban rate > > 1% with 50% ban rate = 2% pick rate , 1% with 90% ban rate = 10% pick rate , 1% with 99% ban rate = 100% pick rate The maximum value doesn't matter though, I don't think any of this is solid enough to use as some kind of justification as to why akali is broken. Like I said the same stats that you claim make akali broken are similar on Annie when you look at mastery of champion and many many more champions. Akali also has the misfortune of having much worse stats elsewhere as well. Nothing here has convinced me she's busted. She also has the lowest winrate of any mid laner on champ gg, it would take a lot more than a fairly high banrate to explain anything about that. Further her banrate is within a few percent of other champions.
Seen (NA)
: Stats for Lucian in Diamond+
And not getting nerfed. Typical riot adc favoritism. He's disgustingly broken but we see more people cry about akali with the lowest winrate of any mid laner.
: If this vayne Buff goes trough....
It's ridiculous. Vayne isn't even bad on live, why buff her to such a degree?
: Neeko needs to make a trade off: Her damage or its reliability
Damage or reliability odd a whole group of champs doesnt have to make that decision{{champion:236}}
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=00020002000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T07:50:41.719+0000) > > Yes they do? You can literally sort by only experienced players with said champion and high elo only. Pick ban rates don't mean anything to champion strength and plenty of champions have high pick rates. Which doesn't say shit about how well someone plays a champion. Just because someone is Diamond doesn't mean they can play every champion well. Win rates are for fools. Akali is super fucking OP and 45%ish win rate it's just blatant proof of how garbage WRs are that you're disregarding.
> [{quoted}](name=H1de on blue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=000200020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T14:42:57.114+0000) > > Which doesn't say shit about how well someone plays a champion. Just because someone is Diamond doesn't mean they can play every champion well. > > Win rates are for fools. Akali is super fucking OP and 45%ish win rate it's just blatant proof of how garbage WRs are that you're disregarding. No it doesnt because guess what? Every single champion has that available to them. So when every single champion can have their winrates compared with similar variables and she still comes up lacking.... well. You say "even though their diamond that doesn't mean they play every champion well", that applies to ANY CHAMPION that you look at numbers on. If you don't go on winrate what the hell else do you go on? Bandwagoning play and ban rate?
: it's math and why I spent a lot of time editing my post to include "up to" it worked before but i'll have to see which is the correct method as i'm a little rusty akali is banned 60% of the time, meaning that she's only available 2 / 5 times. You inverse this 9 * 5 / 2 = 22.5 % we can apply the same to lucian though estimation is faster. He has a 33% pick rate and 33% ban rate (when it's 33.5 and 32% ), He is available in 66% / 100% so, multiply 33 * 100 / 66 = 50 exactly it was passed 11 pm when I was writing the previous comment so everything might not be coherrent. With the same method, her 60% ban rate could mean that only 2 in five situations let her slip through interestingly, the higher the ban rate, the more drastic the effect is. For example, a champion with 10% pick rate and 90% ban rate has a 1 in 10 chance of being picked, but when you inverse this, that creates an up to 100% pick rate, which is essentially true whereas if there were a really high ban rate with a lower percentage, such as 1%, let's take a 50% ban rate, that only increases their effective pick rate to 2% but if said 1% champion had a 90% ban rate, its effective value is 10% , increasing to a value of up to 100% if there is a 99% ban rate it's based on the potential to pick the champion against how often it is picked
> [{quoted}](name=3TWarrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=0008000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T15:09:00.180+0000) > > it's math and why I spent a lot of time editing my post to include "up to" > > it worked before but i'll have to see which is the correct method as i'm a little rusty > > akali is banned 60% of the time, meaning that she's only available 2 / 5 times. You inverse this 9 * 5 / 2 = 22.5 % > > we can apply the same to lucian though estimation is faster. He has a 33% pick rate and 33% ban rate (when it's 33.5 and 32% ), He is available in 66% / 100% so, multiply 33 * 100 / 66 = 50 exactly > > it was passed 11 pm when I was writing the previous comment so everything might not be coherrent. With the same method, her 60% ban rate could mean that only 2 in five situations let her slip through > > interestingly, the higher the ban rate, the more drastic the effect is. For example, a champion with 10% pick rate and 90% ban rate has a 1 in 10 chance of being picked, but when you inverse this, that creates an up to 100% pick rate, which is essentially true > > whereas if there were a really high ban rate with a lower percentage, such as 1%, let's take a 50% ban rate, that only increases their effective pick rate to 2% > > but if said 1% champion had a 90% ban rate, its effective value is 10% , increasing to a value of up to 100% if there is a 99% ban rate > > it's based on the potential to pick the champion against how often it is picked Wait, but you are assuming everytime a champion is banned that it would be picked otherwise?
: sorting by best players, akali has between 60 and 80% winrate, just like lucian, only when you account for lucian's ban rate, he would have UP TO a 50% pick rate without his bans Akali without her bans can have up to around 20% pick rate
> [{quoted}](name=3TWarrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=000200020000000000000001,timestamp=2018-12-15T23:50:23.281+0000) > > sorting by best players, akali has between 60 and 80% winrate, just like lucian, only when you account for lucian's ban rate, he would have UP TO a 50% pick rate without his bans > > Akali without her bans can have up to around 20% pick rate How can you account for ban rates? There is no way for you to know if someone is going to pick a champion if it otherwise wouldn't have been banned. Yes it likely would be higher but there is no way to say how much higher. Looking at experience Annie is higher or the same as akali, so I still don't think she's broken, unless you think annie is broken too?
: Tanks shouldn’t do damage.
Tanks are literally trash can tier now and people still cry about them. Yikes
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2018-12-15T04:04:56.844+0000) > > Youre arguing in favor of using anecdotes in favor of statistical evidence. Why do solo q rates mean nothing ? Because they don't agree with your opinions? Win rates don't account for player skill which is a big fucking deal. Pick/ban rates are a much better stat for how strong a champ is and even then you need to view them with perspective. Akali is still very fucking strong
> [{quoted}](name=H1de on blue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=0002000200000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T04:29:32.903+0000) > > Win rates don't account for player skill which is a big fucking deal. Pick/ban rates are a much better stat for how strong a champ is and even then you need to view them with perspective. Akali is still very fucking strong Yes they do? You can literally sort by only experienced players with said champion and high elo only. Pick ban rates don't mean anything to champion strength and plenty of champions have high pick rates.
ChuShoe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=000200030000,timestamp=2018-12-15T04:04:19.236+0000) > > What about champions like yasuo who have maintained one of the highest ban rates for ages? Should they be nerfed into the ground to because people ban it alot? Nobody has been asking for what's getting nerfed on her to get nerfed. They've been complaining about her shroud, which hasn't been touched, in addition to being one of the worst designs for a champion. Nobody wants yasuo nerfed, everybody wants him reworked into something healthy. Nobody wants akali nerfed, everybody wants her to be reworked into something healthy.
> [{quoted}](name=ChuShoe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=0002000300000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T04:59:29.360+0000) > > Nobody has been asking for what's getting nerfed on her to get nerfed. They've been complaining about her shroud, which hasn't been touched, in addition to being one of the worst designs for a champion. Nobody wants yasuo nerfed, everybody wants him reworked into something healthy. Nobody wants akali nerfed, everybody wants her to be reworked into something healthy. Thats fine to make that statement I'm just saying for people not to pretend like she's somehow super good or op when factually shes not.
: Her pick and ban rate seems to be changing rapidly, but i'll give current numbers for worldwide in diamond. Akali has 9% pick rate with 47% winrate. This means that she has a 1 in 11 chance of being encountered, but it can also mean that roughly 1 in 11 situations have the tools to deal with her her ban rate is abnormal, but the reason is because she has high ban rate in TWO LANES Yasuo has over 20% pick rate in diamond+ and his ban rate is now over 40% yet his win rate is only 46%, and he can function in more than one lane Akali's best players have very high win rates on her and if you take her ban rate into account, her pick rate would be at most 20% without it lucian has 33% pick rate, 51% win rate and 33% ban rate , without his ban rate, he would have up to 50% pick rate https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/diamond that's for diamond though if we take Iron or greater, she has 9% popularity, 44% win rate and 41% ban rate. this means she would have up to 15% pick rate without ban rate, which is the "high" amount for what is meta, with 20% being exceptions and some champions even exceed that...
> [{quoted}](name=3TWarrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=00080000000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T05:19:31.041+0000) > > Her pick and ban rate seems to be changing rapidly, but i'll give current numbers for worldwide in diamond. Akali has 9% pick rate with 47% winrate. This means that she has a 1 in 11 chance of being encountered, but it can also mean that roughly 1 in 11 situations have the tools to deal with her > > her ban rate is abnormal, but the reason is because she has high ban rate in TWO LANES > > Yasuo has over 20% pick rate in diamond+ and his ban rate is now over 40% yet his win rate is only 46%, and he can function in more than one lane > > Akali's best players have very high win rates on her and if you take her ban rate into account, her pick rate would be at most 20% without it > > lucian has 33% pick rate, 51% win rate and 33% ban rate , without his ban rate, he would have up to 50% pick rate > > https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/diamond > > that's for diamond though > > if we take Iron or greater, she has 9% popularity, 44% win rate and 41% ban rate. this means she would have up to 15% pick rate without ban rate, which is the "high" amount for what is meta, with 20% being exceptions and some champions even exceed that... "lucian has 33% pick rate, 51% win rate and 33% ban rate , without his ban rate, he would have up to 50% pick rate" How do you extrapolate that from the data? Yasuo can also be played mid and top and his winrate is one percent off of hers according to your stat. Hardly
nelogis (EUW)
: > Because maybe the way you have to go about beating it isn't fun or how that player likes to play? Ryze isn't even that strong right now, look up how few people even play him with success at the high elos. > > You're arguing against easy to read objective data. Don't you think it makes more sense that people ban it for other reasons than it being objectively strong rather than her being some kind of secret op while nothing about her represents that? Yes Ryze is okay-ish because he is sitting at 45.5%, bump that up to 48.5% (like Akali) and Ryze is strong. Also it's 2.2% playrate for top and 6% playrate in total for Diamond+ That isn't bad. Akali sitting at 3.7% for top and 9% in total, not that far away from Ryze. So let's assume that Akali is bad like you are trying to tell me, why does she have a 9% playrate for diamond+? For a "bad" champion that is a lot.
> [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsXYf055,comment-id=00020000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-14T11:47:26.288+0000) > > Yes Ryze is okay-ish because he is sitting at 45.5%, bump that up to 48.5% (like Akali) and Ryze is strong. > > Also it's 2.2% playrate for top and 6% playrate in total for Diamond+ > That isn't bad. > > Akali sitting at 3.7% for top and 9% in total, not that far away from Ryze. > > So let's assume that Akali is bad like you are trying to tell me, why does she have a 9% playrate for diamond+? > For a "bad" champion that is a lot. Maybe people just like playing her or shes feast or famine? She has a super low winrate same with ryze. Ryze or akali are not op. If those stats sound op to you than something like riven must be unbelievably busted.
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vgamedude

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