: I think your just giving up to easily I have had only like 3 games decided by 10 to 15 mins in and one of those lasted 38 mins. Also the majority of games are around 30 mins long.
Welcome to all-too-common toxic NA mentality: I'm not winning laning phase? Let me turn off my brain and stop trying. I mean I could do my best and we could definitely win, but that sounds like too much work.
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y7R6Wp8s,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-10T22:13:58.916+0000) > > "Early game champs are kings" while Cass and karthus are top tier in 3 different lanes? > > I think not cass hasnt been a late game champ in a long time. she spikes off 1-2 items.
Vayne also spikes hard on 2 items, but she's still a late game champ. There's a difference between "power spike" and... peak of power curve. One is a jump in power for your champion likely due to synergy in itemization and champ kit. The other is when your champion is theoretically at their strongest point in the game for itemization and gold efficiency. Like you might be stronger on 4 items and level 15 than you are on 2 items and level 10, but compared to what another champ gets from item 3 and 4... you don't get as much benefit from them or as much of an increase to your power. So other champs start catching up to you in power purely from making better use of the stats those 3rd and 4th items provide. That would be an early/mid game champ.
: WHY are we nerfing the late game of late game champs
{{champion:58}} early game champ in an early game meta... 48% winrate top. Buffs? No.??????
: Positional Rank is not a good idea.
So you're saying if I lane swap with adc as a toplaner... I can rank up my bot lane rating?
Spekkıo (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=1 800 Top Lane,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=szFePB4c,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-11T00:27:44.359+0000) > > If you don't pressure the lane enough and let Ezreal stack double tears into late game it's not a balance problem. You can't let Nasus farm 400 cs and complain he's unbalanced when he dirt naps you. Getting downvoted by League boards community for spectating spring split games. Getting lectured by League boards community for spectating spring split games. Yikes, League boards community.
> [{quoted}](name=Spekkıo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=szFePB4c,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-11T00:49:39.851+0000) > > Getting downvoted by League boards community for spectating spring split games. > Getting lectured by League boards community for spectating spring split games. > > Yikes, League boards community. just another adc 1v9 wannabe that thinks they're supposed to kill everything that breathes in 1-4 aa's and be able to facetank full build zed ult combo 1v1 and not die despite building no defensive items. Ignore such ignorant fools.
: If you don't pressure the lane enough and let Ezreal stack double tears into late game it's not a balance problem. You can't let Nasus farm 400 cs and complain he's unbalanced when he dirt naps you.
> [{quoted}](name=1 800 Top Lane,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=szFePB4c,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-11T00:27:44.359+0000) > > If you don't pressure the lane enough and let Ezreal stack double tears into late game it's not a balance problem. You can't let Nasus farm 400 cs and complain he's unbalanced when he dirt naps you. Nasus pays for that by having a weak and unsafe laning phase. Sure in solo queue you can probably stack under tower and be ok, but in pro play they'll build the wave and just dive you. Or you push out and you're getting ganked and probably dying or blowing flash. There's no such thing with ezreal. Nasus doesn't get that from merely building items... he has to stack q. Nasus is melee and must remain in melee range of you while eating tons of damage and having had to close the gap to get to you while eating tons of poke and cc to do any damage to you. Ezreal? 2 miles away, 2 sec cd, no mana issues. There's a difference. If you can't see it, you're blind and should refrain from making more low intelligence comments on the topic.
voltiguer (EUW)
: i dont mean to be disrespectful but: yes mechanics... your ability to hammer nails are very hard to attain but i dont think you should be supposed to learn how to swing the hammer and master it so that you discover you cant carry a lot of sand with it and the game feels the same in some situations so it could be better if the champion had some inClient way of telling you what your champion (tool) is supposed to do you still can test out secret and hidden ways of playing ad teemo or tank morgana or ad fizz or ap ezreal but in general there is a meta that most people follow in the end nobody tells you how to build your shovel to help you moove sand
The meaning of your "yes mechanics..." is unclear to me. And as far as build... there's plenty of stuff less extreme than going tank morgana or ad teemo as far as optimizing builds. Like in one matchup darius might rush phage first item while in another he rushes ninja tabi. Or you might run different rune page vs a leblanc mid than you would vs an azir mid even though you're playing the same champion in both matchups. Those are things you figure out from experimenting and finding what is best for you. Half the time (roughly speaking... not statistically accurate to the 10th decimal place) the meta is the meta because it's good or "most effective tactic", but half the time it's because people don't or are afraid to try something new cuz they might initially lose some elo for it. Meta is optimized for teamplay in pro setting. In solo queue the same build might not be the best because you are relying on your team supplying certain other factors in order for your build to be optimal in that setting and they might not be able to or for some other reason might not supply it. Like if you have an olaf that rushed redemption but then never fights or pressures anything until the healing it offers is trivial compared to the lower combat stats he has from it or if you have an adc that's way behind... then full tank sion might not mean as much as if you're adc is strong so going bruiser sion would be more effective in that match. Meta is SITUATIONALLY the most effective tactic... not ALWAYS the most effective tactic. Secondly meta is only as good as you can play it. If I'm supposed to build zhonya 2nd item, but I never use the active or I'm supposed to rush protobelt but I suck at managing my mana and am always oom, then I might be building meta, but I'd be better off building something I use to full effect instead. And thirdly meta is only meta until something new comes along and beats said meta. Oh, you play urgot top cuz he's meta? Let me play grasp darius and I can take stupid extended trades in lane vs you and come out ahead. Since you're nearly melee, you now can't farm anywhere except under your tower unless you want to feed me. And now I darius get tankier just for fighting you in lane and can build a massive advantage top while being able to afford a squishier build due to the durability of my non-meta runes. I let my more damage heavy build and my passive make up for not having conqueror in this specific matchup and let my more durable runes make up for my squishier early game build to let me still soak damage to the same degree you'd expect of a darius. Bonus... I now have permanent scaling thanks to grasp stacks. There's a theoretical example for you. Or to borrow one from pro play that I theory-crafted I believe last year when cho was still meta toplaner and it was league of tanks: SKT toplaner played cho into some other tank matchup where traditionally cho would go even. Only one very slight rune changeup flipped that on it's head. Overheal. Thanks to overheal, most of the damage done to cho would go into breaking his shield from overheal as he pushed the wave. Thus while the other tank took actual damage which they attempted to heal up... cho no longer played that game. Instead of healing up damage the like the other tank would do and cho traditionally had done via grasp proc's alone and via minions fueling his passive to heal him... they were instead blocking him from even taking damage. Which lead to slow chipping away of the other guy's hp and him eventually having to base and miss xp and cs or burn tp and give cho advatages in lane. This made cho a premium tank pick who would simply out-duel other tanks and guarantee pressure advantage in laning phase unless you camped him hella hard. All because of changing one rune cho took. Today we see much the same with sion.... the premiere tank toplaner. Only instead of overheal it's sion's w. There's plenty of examples of small things like this where you optimize your setup for the specific match you are in where those changes make you stronger than simply blindly following the meta.
Jo0o (NA)
: Five Critical Improvements to Riot's Behavioral System (from somebody who has never been punished)
As someone who has been ranked honor 5... and honor 0 at the same time while treating people the same way dependent on THEIR treatment of ME, I'll give a few inputs and insights that I've offered before and hope one day Riot will actually listen to and use to improve. First off, let me say I'm not naturally an asshole. I actually prefer to be the complete opposite. I'm the guy that's stupidly cheering on and encouraging the 2/5/0 teammate that's played poorly all game when we manage to go even in a fight... and act like he just solo killed all of skt. And on teams with low morale and building up toxicity among teammates, it actually helps a lot. We don't always make a comeback and win, but everyone's attitude improves for the most part and we have fun even if we still lose the game. That's just the kind of guy I like to be. As far as your points and suggestions, I'd say I 100% agree with the first 2. The third I'd love to agree to; however, as Riot has said they cannot give details for every single report or it would lead to abuse. Trust me... I'm a creative guy... it would work. They could still improve feedback though without going so far as to give a yes/no on every person you report. Perhaps a monthly... "we are actively investigating ## of players or have taken reform action towards them based on your feedback this month, thanks for helping us make league a friendlier place". Then there's no way to link this with players, but you can still regularly see results. Point 4... I think it should still result in honor loss (yeah, it's happened to me), but perhaps not immediate honor 0 for one time. If you get chat restriction, it's not for only 1 game of toxic chat... unless that chat was REALLY REALLY worst stuff possible you can say. And if warnings were implemented like you suggest, then you'd have plenty of time/chances to improve and KNOW you need to improve before multi-game toxicity lead to chat restriction. Point 5. I like that kind of idea and I think it would be great except they'd probably have to way up what it took to reach honor 5. Plus I can 100% say that there's honor 4 or 5 players who can be pretty rude sometimes and players don't always honor people because they're nice/honorable. And while giving out one skin... per season to honor 5 player might sound like very affordable, multiply that by how many players are out there and the numbers get really big. So I'd suggest looking into non-monetary options or alternatives too that Riot might be more considerate of implementing. Ex: higher priority in finding games (not much, but a bit) so it's like honor 4 or 5 gets you a fast pass at Disneyland sort of as far as finding your next league match. Or maybe you get to rent a skin of your choice for free once a month for a few games. This would be less money Riot is giving away for free and would even potentially boost skin sales because the player trying it out really likes skin and decides to buy. I think Riot does a great job of addressing blatant toxicity in chat and the improvements you've suggested would make it even better. But... there's a second half to toxicity which is not discussed, gets dismissed if it is brought up, and is honestly causing much of the first half. So, let's look at the dark side of toxicity... the side nobody wants to address... the side people excuse... the source that fuels much of the blatant toxicity. Imagine you're playing bot lane and the enemy mid (4/1/0 in lane, even or ahead in cs) and enemy jg decide to perma-camp you all of laning phase. To the point you literally can't go to halfway point in lane without a leblanc or elise jumping on you from min 3 to min 18. Just non-stop there denying you the ability to build an advantage in your lane even though you completely outclass their bot duo. Annoying right? Well we haven't even gotten to annoying yet. Elise will literally flash basic combo you not to kill you... but purely to delay you basing or to chunk you out so you have to miss a wave. Your mid lane is losing. Your jg will 1v4 invade enemy bot jg but won't gank for you. When he dies 1v4 in jg, he flames you for not backing him up. Mid? Will sit there freezing wave at her tower for 40 sec rather than push to punish leblanc being bot... again. Over and over. And when you die 2v4 because your mid and jg refuse to do anything about 4 man bot all laning phase? Mid complains about another bronze bot lane feeding their opponent. The game is no fun. You have 0 agency because you're outnumbered more or less the whole laning phase. And your team does nothing to punish that or to help negate that and give you a chance. Oh, and all the while you are being what I call "low key" harassed by jg and mid. Yeah, not blatant stuff that Riot does a good job of addressing... but more subtle stuff. Things where the MEANING of what they are saying is very blatantly toxic, but the just read as words at face value won't go detected by some computer system and punished. Well, it's just one match so you can suck it up and move on right? Nope. It is 50% or more of your matches for that whole month. You win bot 2v3? Guess what, this game your team is so bad you needed to be able to 2v4. Or you can win a game if you just group and teamfight with baron buff and break second inhib to do a final push to end? Your 1/9/7 toplaner spends the next 20 min solo pushing and applying 0 tower pressure (wasting 2 baron buffs and an elder dragon) while losing any 1v1. Now the other team has caught up and you alone can't carry the game. You make 1 meaningful mistake the whole game and your team loses and... blames you. If that's your experience, you can imagine why you might get a little upset. Why you might SAY SOMETHING blatant because you're fed up of teammates playing like crap, blaming you for everything while they're the ones throwing all game, and because you're sick of nothing being done to fix their low key toxicity and way sub-par play. You deserve better teammates than this. Once in awhile a game like this happens to everybody sure and that's ok. But 50% or more of your matches? That's absurd. Basically means that while hella tilted from 50% or so auto-loss rate you need to still play perfectly in every match (perfect for your elo anyways... we're not all challenger) just to avoid dropping elo. And if you go say anything like I just did here on the boards, you're met with more of that toxicity. People outright lying about what you said. People refusing to read what you say and just flaming you. Mods and others who are supposed to keep the boards civilized accusing you of things like kda shaming and other nonsense even as you explained in the post they're replying to that a 1/7/0 adc might very well not be inting or playing poorly and you'd defend them depending on circumstance. Or they'll say that if you just "got good" you'd climb or have 50% winrate and not drop in elo. So you go to website that tracks stats and look to see your performance compared with that of highest ranked diamond elo player on the champ you 1-trick. And you see that combat stats, farming, macro play, etc. you are performing far above average for your elo. In fact... you are out-performing to the same degree as said diamond player does in their elo. They have 79% winrate with that champ. You? 49% winrate... while putting up same level of superior performance... and while facing the abovementioned 50% auto-loss games. But yeah, if you just got good you'd win more lul. So what is the dark side of toxicity and how do we fix it? The dark side of toxicity is the low key toxicity that goes undetected, excused, and/or unpunished. It is also the players who either intentionally or unintentionally massively underperform in a ranked game. I know, I know... there's having a bad game. And I assure you I account for that... remember my story at the start? I'd defend that guy underperforming cuz he clearly tried even though he had a rough game. I got no problem with that type of player and them playing poorly in a game with me. I'm talking the guy who clearly and repeatedly makes the same wrong play(s) over and over. Who has 0 interest in helping his team or even allowing his team to help him. Where the guy is either clearly inting, or he's a gold elo player put in a challenger match and is being hella abused for it. If it's the first scenario and he's doing it on purpose, that's equivalent to win-trading or elo boosting (boosting other team) and should be punished strictly... just as strictly as blatant chat toxicity. If it's the latter and the player is simply placed far above their proper elo - like a gold stuck in challenger cuz placements overestimated where they belong - then we shouldn't be punishing them as far as chat restriction, temp ban, honor drop or anything like that. But it's still toxic for their team to deal with and one must wonder how they got placed so high to begin with. Stolen account or borrowed friend's account? Paid to be boosted or bought an account? Pure dumb luck? Etc. Regardless, the player clearly doesn't have the skill to be at that elo. And if the skill gap is THAT big and THAT clear, then they should be instantly demoted to more proper rank. Sure you could let system sort itself out, but when we're talking 2 full tiers or more... that's a lot of players in challenger, master, diamond, plat that have 1 or more auto-loss matches because of one person. And that spills over into their future matches especially if one or more of the players involved have a string of such matches that they encounter. One person ends up boosted themselves because they were the benefactor who got 3-4 straight auto-wins... another got 3-4 auto-losses. And now the former has a mini effect like this on their future teammates and the one who lost 3-4? They're going to hard carry and potentially boost teammates (not intentionally) that didn't deserve to win... perpetuating the whole thing on to more teammates and opponents in their future matches. So the solution is first to admit that this really is a problem. That low key toxicity and griefin exists and needs to be treated with as much passion and sincerity as Riot shows when addressing blatant toxicity.
voltiguer (EUW)
: LOL is a hard game could anything be done to make it easier to learn
Best way to learn some of that is either websites with free and paid videos teaching you champion mechanics, combo's, etc. OR to find a streamer or two that really shares their thought process and tactics with their audience. RTO, SRO are two that have traditionally done a good job of this for people wanting to learn top lane or specifically renekton. There's different types of champions that have wildly different playstyles. Even sometimes the same champion can be played in multiple different ways. I wouldn't focus on stuff like freezing, slow pushing, or even splitpushing if you are really just starting to play. Try different champions until you find a few you really like and learn how to play well on them. Figure out what items and runes work for you. Googling that stuff can be a start, but if it doesn't feel right, take the runes or items that work best for you. Not every strategy or build works at every skill level. Once you feel comfortable with a few different champions you can do other things. Like learning wave manipulation, freezing, splitpush, etc. You can learn more about teamfighting, flanks, etc. Also you can examine the champions that you enjoy the most and figure out if they have something in common. Like do you enjoy skillshot champions or more point-n-click champions? Do you enjoy the tanky champs, bruisers, squishy damage dealers? Do you like to get up close and personal with opponents or prefer to keep your distance? Figuring that stuff out will help you pick more champs to try... similar to how someone might get more artists/music recommended to them based on their known preferences. Don't try to learn everything at once. Doing that will leave you burned out and confused or overwhelmed. It's ok to mess up. Just do your best to learn from your mistakes and/or figure out what your mistakes are. When I first played ranked, I fed a lot. And people got to call their roles at that time, so being bad and new meant I got shoved on support role (least desired role by players at that time). But even when people were jerks about it and would today be insta-banned for what they said to me, I did my best to understand what they were mad at me for and tried to learn from it. And by the end of my first season of ranked I would often find myself 1v2 killing the enemy adc and/or support as a sona or leona - not something most players could claim. So even if people are rude about how they talk to you... try to find what went wrong and focus on that rather than tilt. Neither of us might be the next Faker, but we can still improve and learn.
: Jax is broken with Essence Reaver...
Riven is really strong with it... but if she rushes it she's also hella squishy. I'd also argue she has nearly the same cd's without it because her's are so low you can almost permanently layer them even without spear of shojin once you have 40-45% cdr. Renekton... honestly he's weak as shit later into the game without it. His cd's on his basic abilities are simply far too high even with 40% cdr so that he almost kinda needs it. It makes him very strong, but I wouldn't say it puts him over the top with it late game. Early game yeah, he's disgusting with it and it's a bit much. Jax with old essence reaver plus other items such as bork, triforce, and/or bloodrazor? Complete over the top bs thanks to his near-permanent e giving damage reduction plus aoe stun. Spear's stats only further enhance this. While some of the new stats help renekton or riven compared to what er gave... the gold cost increase compared to the stats gained and lost makes it a net decrease in efficiency for them. While for jax... all the changes (minus no mana) are a net gain in efficiency for him almost as though Riot tailor built the item for him. What I've honestly said for months now is that... er (now spear of shojin) is a broken item that needs to be removed from the game. I think renek deserves some lower cd's on his maxed out basic abilities... more comparable to riven level cd's, but that's about it. Early game his cd's are acceptable because it's 1v1 or 1v2 or 2v2 trades and his abilities are up often enough. Mid/late and late game teamfights and duels though, his abilities are on way too long of a cd compared with other similar champs like darius, riven, jax, etc. So give him lower cd's at max ability rank and remove spear of shojin because it breaks jax and it gives crazy strong power to others... not necessarily breaking them late game but making them stronger than they ought to be.
: And it's fine that other roles are stronger earlier in the game. The problem arises when the game is either consistently over or decided _before_ a late game ADC can reasonably even scale, or the late game ADC that was weak all early/mid game isn't even that strong when late game finally arrives. In that kind of a game state those champions become completely pointless. It's easy to cherry pick scenarios to justify your stance and call ADCs unreasonable, but the simple fact of the matter is that your early game champ is guaranteed to get their turn at being more impactful. The complaints weren't about you having your time to shine, they were about ADCs looking for _theirs_, but not being able to reach it before the game is over or out of control, or if they get there _still_ not being strong enough to matter. Also, ADCs CAN'T 1v9, by design. We take the tradeoff of being reliant on at least one other person in all stages of the game for the promise of being the key to putting the game away when properly played around. They are the best class overall to pair with a support, which is why they can beat Viktor in Bot Lane. You don't see those same ADCs beating him in Top. So I, for one, get it. I'm **fine** with your class doing what you do and being more impactful through the early stages of the game. That you have the ability to pop off and snowball the game hard while you're in the primetime of your power spike. Hell, I'm even fine with the fact that without peel or sustain I'm dead if I get engaged on. All _I_ want is to get _my_ turn at least semi-consistently in close or even games, so my champion isn't an afterthought and has SOME say on whether or not we win. But I can understand how that would seem like too much to ask, when you're as bitter as you seem to be in your post.
Where have I cherry picked anything? Where? I haven't. When people say 1v9... they rarely actually mean 1 guy going into a 1v5 and walking out the victor. They mean that one champion/player can go into a teamfight or some ridiculously outnumbered scenario and their advantage means more than anyone else's. Ex: If jax with er (before this patch that just came out) has a lead and his whole team has been feeding all game and deserves to lose... if that jax can 5v5 and come out alive and winning the teamfight he basically just 1v9. No role has more ability to do this than the adc nor has any role had that type of power as often as adc. Adc's can and do win vs "stronger opponents" at every single point in the game... and not just luc, draven or some other early game adc winning in early or mid game. It happens with late game adc's too and even in pro play. Yet adc's come to the boards and consistently argue that they have 0 agency, no damage, get 1-shot, blah blah blah all game until 4+ items and then they finally get on same power level as other champs. Well gameplay shows otherwise all the way up to the pro level. So arguing adc's are weak or that they need a straight up buff to their early or mid game is complete bs. As much as it might sound it... I don't hate adc's or all adc mains. I do hate the comments and complaints of unreasonable completely biased people. Of which you do not appear to be one based on your response. People like you are very much welcome in the commentary section in my opinion because you actually understand champions are supposed to have tradeoffs, strengths, weaknesses, and power curves. But sadly most of the people blabbing about adc's simply don't understand that. And like you, I would like to see some more power given to adc's early or mid game... but not without balance. If they are given more equal power to other roles early or mid game... then it must be balanced out by other champions having more comparable power with them late game. That is all I have ever argued... only unlike you most people see this as unreasonable. Proof example of this claim I just made? I've suggested crit work for all champs more like it does for Ashe. Where each crit item does not increase CHANCE of crit but rather the DAMAGE crits deal. So say with 1 crit item, your aa's now all do 125% damage instead of having a 25% chance that an aa does 200% damage. This would make adc's more consistent AND make their power curve smoother... where you don't basically wait on 3 crit items to give you the high rng you currently need to get full value out of the items. I've also said that non-crit items which offer defensive properties should be improved as far as their value and ability to be purchased earlier into adc's builds. Making the above change to crit would be one step towards helping with that. Then if an adc is playing against a fed renekton, jax, talon, zed, etc.. they could feel fine with going 2nd or at least 3rd item ga to help prevent being 1-shot during mid game teamfights or just farming with their support during something like a 1-3-1. Or they could build maw against a fed mage. Currently, due to the need for 3 crit items to get proper effectiveness out of those items, many adc's can't get such defensive stats and so they are at the mercy of being flashed on and deleted with no real counterplay. While adc's could build those now too, the dps loss is too high a price to pay in most scenarios because the other team's adc will just have so much more dps that you can't even teamfight if you build said defensive item. It would help non-crit adc's too because they are also enabled to build such items and be more competitive with crit adc's for 2 reasons. First because champs like kalista or lucian would get better value from the one awkward crit item they often do build. Second because non-crit items would be buffed/adjusted to be of closer value to crit items mid game... making non-crit adc's more competitive as far as power from their itemization. I'm not saying adc's are broken. I'm not saying all adc's are crybabies or unreasonable people. I'm not even saying that there aren't some non-adc's that need hella nerfs or itemization that should be changed or removed from the game (old essence reaver... now spear of shojin for example - too disgusting with jax). But rather than read and comprehend something like that, the boards just see... adc's don't need buffs and rage at me. Mindlessly downvote. Tell me I'm an idiot. Claim I say something I never said. Stuff like that. So yeah... I do have an issue with many adc mains. Because in my experience, they tend to be unreasonable. I'm glad there are always exceptions to that though.{{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Rioter Comments
: Riot Should Offer an "MMR Reset" To Players Who Want it.
You can't compare this season placement with last season for multiple reasons. 1. positional rank 2. new lower tier added - this shifts everyone's starting placements lower unless they basically win out or only lose one of the last 2 games of placements possibly ex: I have ended season in gold 5-gold 3 past 3 seasons. I have started new ranked season around bronze 3-bronze 1. This season due to everyone dropping, I'd rank/predict my end of season placement somewhere around silver 1 to gold 4 depending on if I was one of the better low gold elo players or not. Thus, my placements should put me in bronze 4 or bronze 3... possibly lower depending on how well or poorly I did in them with an emphasis on the first few games. It's like the first few games decide if you're targeting at iron, bronze, silver, or gold and the later ones are deciding... are you bronze 4, bronze 3, bronze 2 or bronze 1 for placements. Basically the focus narrows later into placement matches, so if you lose match 1 or 2 but win rest, you'll place lower than if you win out until one of last 2 matches even though your record is the same.
: Spear of Shojin is a testament to the utterly idiotic balancing in this game
525 gold 15 ad, 670 gold worth of hp... lose 525 gold worth of stats compared to essence reaver in the ad reduction. Gain 670 gold worth of stats in hp. I don't remember what the attack speed was but I think you gain a bit of value with spear vs what essence reaver gave you; however, that largely only helps aa-based casters like jax rather than someone like riven or renekton. I also believe the duration of the passive was 8 sec at one point on essence reaver and is now only 6 sec. TL;DR... with the 400 gold cost increase, you have largely gained basically nothing in stats while making the item more expensive. Thus... the item is basically less valuable to most of the champions that would buy it and/or make use of old essence reaver. If someone wants to provide me old essence reaver stats for attack speed etc. then I can do the full math. But as of now... gaining 145 gold worth of stats - and that being hp which we all know is next to meaningless due to high damage in the game - in exchange for losing the ad means it is a net loss of value compared with er even if the champs using it didn't benefit at all from the mana. Should the passive be removed from the game? Probably yeah. But then some of the champs using it simply have way too long of cd's mid/late and late game and would need those cd's reduced. This is something I've said time and again. But doesn't seem like it will be happening anytime soon.
Moody P (NA)
: ADC players don't seem to grasp the reason they are squishy
While I do think that there is a world where adc's get somewhat more durable in exchange for late game damage that's more reasonable level compared with other champs (way too high right now for many), I'd largely agree with everything else you say. And there are options for adc's out there... maw, ga, bt, and whatnot... hell even going frozen mallet. But it all comes at a cost to dps and burst damage for them which they aren't willing to pay. They laugh when other roles "greed" and get blown up for going full squishy, but when it happens to them it's all "buff adc" "adc too weak". And sadly Riot, boards, players, etc. have all largely bought into this mentality for quite some time now... all you have to do to prove this is look back at changes in past 2 years or so and compare to earlier seasons: everyone wants lethality buffed even though it was in a good spot until... it's buffed and limits adc's, then nearly insta-nerfed compared to how long other crap is allowed to last. adc's still weak? introduce league of ardent censer. tp too strong? nerf cast time and then also have adc's abuse it until cd gets nerfed too. But wait... that's leading to toplaners taking ignite and having more kill threat to adc's... better nerf ignite cuz does too much damage to adc etc. etc. Adc is SUPPOSED to be PART of a TEAM. Where all members contribute some combination of damage, cc, and/or durability. But it gets pushed more and more to game where you can't win fight if your adc dies first no matter how low you get other enemies in exchange for just your adc and... adc kills 4 out of 5 enemies basically off their damage alone if you are going to ace enemy team. First off... that's bullshit and it's not the way the game was designed to be. But it exists that way because everything has become catered to and revolves around adc/bot lane. Second off, gee I wonder why everyone wants to try to gun you down at start of fight adc?.... Can't think of ANY reasons at all when you look at it like that. So you don't want that kind of extreme attention on shutting you down at the start of every fight and keeping you behind all game? Then maybe be a reasonable class in terms of the power you wield instead of crying any time you aren't made into exclusive op carry that 1v9's everything. I'm so sick of hearing how it's unfair that other champs have stronger early or mid game than some adc in bot lane. First off... that's perfectly reasonable... it's called a power curve. Most adc's spike mid/late and late game where you have more power than basically anyone else in game. So no shit... if you don't want an aram sniping contest with 5 adc vs 5 adc... other roles are going to have to be more valuable/powerful at other points in the game. But their power curve leaves them weaker than you at another point in the game so that it all balances out - at least in theory. Whining swain is stronger than cait mid game is like a swain complaining full build cait is stronger than him late game. What would you tell the swain doing that? Get over yourself swain... I'm supposed to be stronger now. So uh... adc's get over yourselves... other champs are supposed to be stronger than you at X point in the game - that doesn't mean you need a freaking buff. Second off adc's aren't even weaker in the lane. Just look at pro play. There's as many examples of adc beating out viktor bot as there is of viktor bullying adc in lane... if not more where the adc wins. You can see adc's at every point of the game winning trades and teamfights where they're supposedly "weak as hell" at that point in the game and the other champ is supposed to be at their strongest. Sure there's a few bs champs out there right now, but that's a few champs... which everyone else besides players maining them would also like to see nerfed. So instead of going and hating on an entire class because 1 example of that class is broken, or crying that you need a buff when you don't... try being reasonable. There's so little of this on the boards these days in regards to balance and other similar topics and it makes me want to puke.
: True damage
"Adc's are weak though man... they need it" ... as scaling adc's bully non-adc bot lanes that are supposedly stronger at that point in game as ez can spam q... where any single q does 40% of a syndra's hp from a mile away while healing ez off his gunblade or bork while a syndra can't full combo the ezreal and kill him even though... syndra has cd's and mana constraints while ez spams q every 2 sec. as vayne kills everything in sight needing no more than 9 aa's and typically far less per enemy don't get me wrong; there are a few weak adc's that maybe could use a buff, but the majority need nerf if anything. And THEN we can talk about fixing other roles - with a few exceptions like jax that are adc level problematic. Funny thing is... these champs are almost all dps champs or have tons of %hp damage in their kit. Adc's get that stuff and claim it's ok, but when they're on the receiving end it's somehow bs.
SHerv (NA)
: Biggest mistakes that Iron/Bronze/Silver/Gold players do in "Elo Hell" (2019)
So I agree with 90% of what you said; however, I disagree on the solo carry mentality. It is true most people play like they need to solo carry yes. But it's also sadly true that they often need to. I've played countless games where I sacrifice anything and everything personally to enable my team. Some teams have decent players and cooperative players where this makes a huge difference - I've won a game with 1/19/1 combined kda teammate laners at 20 min. But I've also had plenty of matches where I tp bot, save them, repeat gank for them and give them a massive lead which they then throw away stupidly chasing 2v5 plays and suicidal tower dives or... sit on their butt not pressuring objectives and 2v1 trade farm with the enemy adc while his team 4v3 wins rest of map with their lead elsewhere. So what I'd say is this: If you're playing a carry top... you probably gotta largely self carry if possible. If the other guy is better or equal to you, just try to play to enable your team to help you get advantages. Also, most other roles either have no clue what splitpush means even though they should. And those that do tend to be narrow-minded and selfish... not playing properly around you when you split, but expecting you to enable them to split and knowing what you need to do to enable that even if they don't have tp or global to join teamfight if necessary and therefore it's a bad call for them to split compared to you splitting. If you're playing mid it's much the same only... you have a the most potential besides jg to shove and roam to help put your teammates ahead. If you're playing jg... think about opportunity vs cost rather than just optimized jg cs pathing. Like if you can get a kill, help out your teammate, AND get your camp or steal away your opponent's OR you can do one more camp now, miss an easy gank opportunity and potentially put your teammate behind in order to give yourself an immediate lead it's generally better to do the first option and they'll return the favor later either directly or indirectly. If you're playing adc... unless you get massively outscaled there is literally no reason to try to force a snowball of your lane. Just survive, cs, and because you're adc you will get items and have relevance. This is especially true if you are losing - forcing bad plays only ruins your team's chance to help you recover and screws them all over. So take a not from toplane tanks in pro play and learn to lose lane gracefully... that way your team can teamfight and catch you back up so you can carry.
: My suggestion is give him stupidly-high sustain so he can survive poke lanes. The nerfs to his grey health conversion/shield HP was just stupid. He needs to be tanky. He doesn't need damage. He needs to be a tanky-CC bot who can save his allies from time to time.
Yes. That's exactly the mentality they SHOULD be taking with him and the exact opposite of what they've been taking with most champs including tahm for quite a while now.{{champion:75}}
: > [{quoted}](name=woodvsmurph,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEhU4IeE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-01-31T17:59:04.761+0000) > > Most of the cc in the game is immune to tenacity these days. > > Bruisers have less movespeed advantage in base form than in the past... favoring ranged champs more than in the past from level 1 on. And once adc's get crit... they literally can't be touched except via flash, ghost, active itemization, or a long cd gapcloser as in approx 8 sec or so barring essence reaver interaction to reduce the cd on said ability. > > Adc's get 900+ damage aa's they can use from half a mile away or they have 2 sec cd dash like vayne along with more active items plus combat sums to let them kite or chase opponents as they please than any bruiser can reasonably throw into their kit. Again... further exacerbated by crit giving them higher in-combat movespeed. > > Combo that with the fact adc's kill bruisers in about 6-7 aa's and bruisers ain't got time to focus down enemy frontline first... they gotta try to remove the adc from the game immediately or they'll just die w/o being able to make much use of their kit. Well if your gapcloser is on 8 sec cd and you need to use it to get on adc in first place so you can damage them before they kill you from half mile away with point n click or before they perma-dash aa, dash aa kite and kill you and you die to 6-7 aa's... you die in less time than it takes for your gapcloser to be back up. Which means either you're 1-shotting the adc or you are dead... 0 counterplay. Mid game is bruiser favored. Late game is adc favored. Most games end around mid or mid/late game so it seems like bruiser is just op. That plus crap like jax actually is op so it gives bruisers and fighters a bad rap that most don't deserve. So back to the point of this paragraph... due to problems mentioned above... bruisers (thanks to insane per-aa damage adc's have gotten and the uselessness of true defensive items) have been put in a situation where they HAVE TO build to 1-shot the adc. To do anything else is to pick an inferior version of a tank and basically be trolling... about as good as playing vayne in a lethality only adc meta where jhin and varus are the only real viable adc's. > > You also fail to analyze anything adc's have in their favor while making false claims like higher movespeed for bruiser... which only applies until adc gets items. > Then there's all the %hp damage of adc's. And the ones that don't have it get their 900 dmg aa's from half a mile away while having higher movespeed than the melee trying to catch them plus extra combat summoner in {{summoner:7}} . And it doesn't stop there. There is also {{item:3124}} to multiply damage for on-hit adc's like vayne and bork users. And the bonus damage they do to anyone with higher hp than them... which is pretty much everyone. > > So your "bs tanky" bruisers are now taking closer to say... 1100 damage from a single aa (before resistances... which they basically can't bother building due to needing to 1-shot you and resistances being largely trash currently - 1 reason why sion and urgot are the only "tanks" being played top). Gee... imagine if bruisers got bonus damage multipliers on their aa's and abilities for every 0.1 attack speed advantage their opponent had over them... then adc's would complain about how unfair that is. > See how freaking stupid and absurd that sounds? Yeah? I thought so. You are using that exact same logic as I use there (bruisers doing bonus damage based on opponent's attack speed advantage) when you complain about bruisers being too good while ignoring the bonus damage adc's get to anyone with higher hp than them (which further multiplies their already crazy-high dps from aa's and on-hit). I.E. adc's have so much shit going for them. If they want to greed and go full glass cannon, then they need to shut the hell up and stop whining when they die like they're full glass cannon. > > I don't see adc's going and crying when a zed steps on cait trap and then loses to her in teamfight despite getting off his full combo after cc ends... before dying to one more aa from adc after his ult ends and cait lands her 5th aa on him. Adc's go... zed deserved to die there cuz he's squishy and he got cc'd for half a sec. Oh... really, so that's fair for zed to get killed 0 counterplay or from getting lulu polymorphed for half a sec when jumping adc from fog of war during teamfight even though he played shit as best as possibly minus eating a polymorph. But somehow when same thing happens to adc for being squishy and they get jumped on and cc'd for half a sec... shit's broken and adc needs buffs. Yeah... makes perfect sense lol. The hypocrisy and arrogance of adc's is beyond the ability of reasonable human beings to fathom.{{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} This entire block of text is like your are comparing a full build 100% crit guinsuu Vayne to a 2 item urgot. Make that a 2 item jinx vs a 2 item Kled. She dies. There’s absolutely nothing she can do about it, there is nothing her support can do about it. As soon as she places chompers to escape she is dead.
Oh I'm sorry... let's only look at one specific point in the game where my champ is weaker than yours and cry that therefore my champ needs buffs. Let's not look at every point before or after this where my champ obliterates your champ or nearly every single champ and say that... maybe it is balanced and I just have a different timing for my powerspikes. Yes, that seems like a very reasonable approach. I guess that means darius and anything that can beat him level 1 needs nerf and everyone else needs buff. I guess that means we can look at 3+ items and go... adc is strongest champ in teamfight at this point so they need nerf and everything else needs buff. I guess that means we can look at rageblade plus bork vayne and go... she 1v1's nearly anyone else in game so gut her and buff rest of champs. Cuz looking at one instance rather than the whole power curve of a champ throughout the game and seeing how that power curve stacks up to another champ's power curve makes so much sense and won't lead to any form of bias. Rock is the strongest because it beats scissors. No scissors is the strongest because it beats paper and paper beats rock even though you said rock is the strongest. No... See how freaking stupid that sounds? If so, good. Then stop talking like that.
Sillae (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=woodvsmurph,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qrpqfOhE,comment-id=000000010002,timestamp=2019-01-31T17:28:00.527+0000) > > Bro they're adc crybabies... you can't expect them to use any form of logic. These people think that ever since ardent censer meta adc's killing 4 out of 5 enemies every teamfights at 4-6 aa's apiece is reasonable. They think vayne near-perma stealth is ok but cry that shaco can stealth for a couple sec and pop up behind them. They think getting deleted with "no counterplay" {{item:3026}} {{item:3072}} (for the shield) etc. is unfair, but if the assassin gets hit by any cc, they die in 3 aa's from adc with 0 counterplay and THAT is perfectly ok cuz... assassin built squishy so they deserve it lul. > Can't reason with people that turn off their brain to any form of debate/discussion. That's not to say every adc is like this... but the boards are full of them and most new players think that's how adc's have always been and how they're supposed to be. Can't wait for them getting their incoming 600 hp anti-burst shield {{item:3046}} and hearing them say it's balanced... until it helps a {{champion:23}} {{champion:157}} or {{champion:11}} survive while killing them... and then it's going to be unfair. Of course normal people would say it's a broken or flawed item that needs to be removed or reworked. But they'll instead say it needs to be made ranged only item so melee's can't abuse it lol. > > I predict at least 6 downvotes for this post for giving honest criticism of crybaby adc's on the boards and for being reasonable. How is repeatedly calling adcs crybabies and saying none of their complaints matter (because they're adcs) in any way honest criticism or being reasonable?
You're reinforcing my point. Did I say none of their complaints matter? No. Did I say they don't use logic? Yes. Do I suggest they are extremely biased such that they'd argue a scenario is perfectly acceptable if experienced by a zed but not by an adc? Yes. Adc's might need/have needed some help, but honestly Riot and adc's mostly don't have a clue how to do this without just making adc's broken. Their approach is mostly... keep them with the insane power advantage over all other roles late game that they've enjoyed since Riot shoved mage power to midgame while buffing adc's to be near-equal in power mid and/or early game. Doing that is as stupid as going... Darius and Renekton struggle late game compared to stuff like adc's, poke mages, and jax and fiora. So... we're going to keep them as strong as they are early, slightly buff their mid game, and make take them from say... 40% inferior to these guys down to 5% inferior to them late game. Ok... then why the crap would I bother with adc, poke mage or scaling toplaner? If the other guy is... far stronger early, moderately stronger mid, and barely any weaker than me late... why play something else than darius or renekton? Yet that's the approach adc's on boards mindlessly argue for if you sub in adc for darius/renekton and flip early/late game. Adc's were never supposed to be the solo carry on their team that does all the damage to kill 4 out of 5 enemies on the other team. But that's where it's gotten to in recent years with things like ardent censer meta onwards. And most people don't realize how much of the rest of the imbalance of this game is a direct or indirect result of that. Adc's don't like getting 1-shot by "tanky" bruisers all mid game and sometimes late game? 1. Don't build full glass cannon and greed rush 3 straight crit items. Adc's used to not do this. 2. Don't have adc's doing unreasonable dps to where they kill everything in 4-8 aa's late game... because otherwise you FORCE bruisers to itemize into 1-shot builds to have any relevance and impact on the game cuz their traditional role can't be fulfilled due to insane damage adc's have gotten mid and especially late game even without building armor pen. Adc's don't like being 1-shot by assassins? First off... that's what assassins do. Second off, build some damn durability like adc's used to for mid game fights and you WILL have a chance to fight back. Thirdly, nerf adc's damage so they don't delete an assassin with equal lack of counterplay in 3-5 aa's such that if an assassin eats even 0.5 sec of cc, they die to adc w/o any chance to truly fight back even in the middle of a teamfight. Crap like that and more is all a REACTION to adc's being given more and more power. Sure there are luls where adc's are pathetically underpowered. But the overall trend is making adc into a completely overpowered monster... and then they wonder why other champs want to shut them down. You go for the highest priority targets first. You wonder why there's conqueror top and that bs still exists? Adc's fault again. Their damage created league of tanks that everyone whined about because playing a damage dealer other than an adc was simply not viable vs the dps of adc's, so other roles all played tanks and tanks were made op to be able to look slightly stronger than paper vs adc damage. And so when we wanted to end league of tanks, we needed something equally absurdly strong to cut through those tanks with bruisers and hence conqueror was born. So again... that thing you hate is largely indirectly caused by adc's and their greed for power. You explain anything to them on boards and they tend to completely fail to understand no matter how simple or logical the explanation. Unless that explanation is "buff adc, adc is weak". Everything else they close their eyes, cover their ears and shout lalala can't hear you.
: Counterplay should extend past champ select.
Skill should always be a part of the equation. I think skill should ultimately matter more than counterpick. This honestly is the case much of the time, but not always... especially with flavor of the patch overpowered champs that need a nerf. Like back when ekko was meta toplaner and pick or ban in lcs... ekko could miss half his abilities, not even proc his passive, and out-trade an early game champ that properly landed their full combo. This would be an example where skill SHOULD have made up for the stronger power of ekko and given the early game champ a winning trade vs ekko but did not. But all things being even in execution, skill, etc. then yeah a counterpick should win because it's a counterpick.
: Why do Tahm players think he needs buffs?
I don't know if he needs a buff or not... but I will say when they have given him buffs in past it often ends up doing very little to help him bot lane and instead just makes him more stupidly strong in top lane. Like buffing his %hp damage on his aa's or his devour damage. Hey, the champ's supposed to protect adc's. So why not improve his ability to do that instead of... buffing his ability to kill champs? IDK... just seems logical to me if he DOES need a buff in support role.{{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
: They're aware they may have hit her very strongly: >**Meddler:** [It's certainly possible that removing Akali's healing leaves her in a pretty rough spot overall though. In cases like this where a champion's been problematic for an extended period we've had decent success in the past by taking a heavy pass to them to remove issues, then going back and adding power shortly after if needed once we've seen where they've landed.](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/bOoAxRmj-quick-gameplay-thoughts-january-30)
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=13xePZLs,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-31T18:06:46.676+0000) > > They're aware they may have hit very very strongly: Yeah they've followed a pattern for awhile now with overly strong champs that lack proper counterplay or just have really frustrating kits where they eventually completely gut a champ before introducing slow buffs or adjustments to them and sometimes making them playable once again. But it's a terrible way to go about balancing. It's like doing the following: adc's are unplayable because they get deleted too quickly - playerbase we're quadrupling dps of adc's and buffing their range by 20% across the board - Riot won't that make them broken and take over every role in every lane and the jg too while still leaving them at the mercy of getting 1-shot which is the whole problem to begin with? - playerbase yeah, but rather than make them have some counterplay to being 1-shot we're just going to make them so op that it doesn't matter because nobody can get close enough to even eyeball you before you kill them and that solves everything. Eventually we might have to tone it down because this is going to make adc's insanely overtuned, but we think this is a good fix for now. - Riot so leaving everything else unplayable for the moment seems perfectly ok with you? You wouldn't rather just... do a logical buff to adc being free to build say... {{item:3026}} earlier than 5th item and have that fix the problem or shave off a bit of their dps in favor of some added durability? - playerbase don't be silly, we can't do something so logical and straightforward as that. While we value your input, we aren't going to use any of it. We are going to use our tried and true method of breaking stuff one way or another over and over before finally roundabout getting it to where it should have been all along. - Riot And... that's basically what they do. Except in the case of akali (as compared to adc in this fictitious sample) she's being gutted instead of overbuffed... and instead of everyone else being unplayable while adc's are broken, it's akali being made unplayable or nearly so. I'm not an akali main, and I find the champ frustrating to play against due to lacking proper counterplay with parts of her kit... but this fails to address the counterplay issues and instead attempts to make up for them by just making her insanely weak to counteract the power she gets elsewhere from lack of counterplay in certain aspects of her kit. Rather than take one or two of several good balance fixes that have been suggested which would fix where she lacks counterplay AND not leave her gutted, they're being stubborn and stupid. I don't even play akali and it makes me mad they can't just be freaking logical in how they address the issues with akali. And they've done this type of approach for a couple years now with various champs, items, etc. When you could hire low elo boards members as advisors on how to fix most problems with champs and items while getting better solutions faster and more reliably... you've got a problem. Sure... you might eventually get a solution, but it's not a good method.
: You kinda killed the Akali with the new nerf
Akali rework was a fine concept... but it lacked proper counterplay. Rather than introduce proper counterplay of which there have been several great suggestions on the boards... they just gut her. Cuz making a champ trash is somehow a better solution than either reverting or... just giving proper counterplay? Still after how many champs this has been done to or is currently slowly being done to akali mains shouldn't be surprised. I mean I think she can still reach a decent point eventually, but getting to those items point to make her playable will be more painful than anything adc's have experienced or supposedly experienced bot... and those guys know how to make an ant hill seem like Mount Everest when they complain.
: Bruisers get too much in stats
Most of the cc in the game is immune to tenacity these days. Bruisers have less movespeed advantage in base form than in the past... favoring ranged champs more than in the past from level 1 on. And once adc's get crit... they literally can't be touched except via flash, ghost, active itemization, or a long cd gapcloser as in approx 8 sec or so barring essence reaver interaction to reduce the cd on said ability. Adc's get 900+ damage aa's they can use from half a mile away or they have 2 sec cd dash like vayne along with more active items plus combat sums to let them kite or chase opponents as they please than any bruiser can reasonably throw into their kit. Again... further exacerbated by crit giving them higher in-combat movespeed. Combo that with the fact adc's kill bruisers in about 6-7 aa's and bruisers ain't got time to focus down enemy frontline first... they gotta try to remove the adc from the game immediately or they'll just die w/o being able to make much use of their kit. Well if your gapcloser is on 8 sec cd and you need to use it to get on adc in first place so you can damage them before they kill you from half mile away with point n click or before they perma-dash aa, dash aa kite and kill you and you die to 6-7 aa's... you die in less time than it takes for your gapcloser to be back up. Which means either you're 1-shotting the adc or you are dead... 0 counterplay. Mid game is bruiser favored. Late game is adc favored. Most games end around mid or mid/late game so it seems like bruiser is just op. That plus crap like jax actually is op so it gives bruisers and fighters a bad rap that most don't deserve. So back to the point of this paragraph... due to problems mentioned above... bruisers (thanks to insane per-aa damage adc's have gotten and the uselessness of true defensive items) have been put in a situation where they HAVE TO build to 1-shot the adc. To do anything else is to pick an inferior version of a tank and basically be trolling... about as good as playing vayne in a lethality only adc meta where jhin and varus are the only real viable adc's. You also fail to analyze anything adc's have in their favor while making false claims like higher movespeed for bruiser... which only applies until adc gets items. Then there's all the %hp damage of adc's. And the ones that don't have it get their 900 dmg aa's from half a mile away while having higher movespeed than the melee trying to catch them plus extra combat summoner in {{summoner:7}} . And it doesn't stop there. There is also {{item:3124}} to multiply damage for on-hit adc's like vayne and bork users. And the bonus damage they do to anyone with higher hp than them... which is pretty much everyone. So your "bs tanky" bruisers are now taking closer to say... 1100 damage from a single aa (before resistances... which they basically can't bother building due to needing to 1-shot you and resistances being largely trash currently - 1 reason why sion and urgot are the only "tanks" being played top). Gee... imagine if bruisers got bonus damage multipliers on their aa's and abilities for every 0.1 attack speed advantage their opponent had over them... then adc's would complain about how unfair that is. See how freaking stupid and absurd that sounds? Yeah? I thought so. You are using that exact same logic as I use there (bruisers doing bonus damage based on opponent's attack speed advantage) when you complain about bruisers being too good while ignoring the bonus damage adc's get to anyone with higher hp than them (which further multiplies their already crazy-high dps from aa's and on-hit). I.E. adc's have so much shit going for them. If they want to greed and go full glass cannon, then they need to shut the hell up and stop whining when they die like they're full glass cannon. I don't see adc's going and crying when a zed steps on cait trap and then loses to her in teamfight despite getting off his full combo after cc ends... before dying to one more aa from adc after his ult ends and cait lands her 5th aa on him. Adc's go... zed deserved to die there cuz he's squishy and he got cc'd for half a sec. Oh... really, so that's fair for zed to get killed 0 counterplay or from getting lulu polymorphed for half a sec when jumping adc from fog of war during teamfight even though he played shit as best as possibly minus eating a polymorph. But somehow when same thing happens to adc for being squishy and they get jumped on and cc'd for half a sec... shit's broken and adc needs buffs. Yeah... makes perfect sense lol. The hypocrisy and arrogance of adc's is beyond the ability of reasonable human beings to fathom.{{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
ShirukuSama (EUNE)
: This is not about reaction time but positioning. ADC aka glass cannon play is all about positioning. if the ADC doesn't respect the jungler/assassin or overextends without the aid of its support, doesn't ward and has no map awareness, it deserves the punishment. Sorry to say, but ppl who whining about Rengar or other jungler assassins mostly don't play properly.
Bro they're adc crybabies... you can't expect them to use any form of logic. These people think that ever since ardent censer meta adc's killing 4 out of 5 enemies every teamfights at 4-6 aa's apiece is reasonable. They think vayne near-perma stealth is ok but cry that shaco can stealth for a couple sec and pop up behind them. They think getting deleted with "no counterplay" {{item:3026}} {{item:3072}} (for the shield) etc. is unfair, but if the assassin gets hit by any cc, they die in 3 aa's from adc with 0 counterplay and THAT is perfectly ok cuz... assassin built squishy so they deserve it lul. Can't reason with people that turn off their brain to any form of debate/discussion. That's not to say every adc is like this... but the boards are full of them and most new players think that's how adc's have always been and how they're supposed to be. Can't wait for them getting their incoming 600 hp anti-burst shield {{item:3046}} and hearing them say it's balanced... until it helps a {{champion:23}} {{champion:157}} or {{champion:11}} survive while killing them... and then it's going to be unfair. Of course normal people would say it's a broken or flawed item that needs to be removed or reworked. But they'll instead say it needs to be made ranged only item so melee's can't abuse it lol. I predict at least 6 downvotes for this post for giving honest criticism of crybaby adc's on the boards and for being reasonable.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=woodvsmurph,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mj5xdKqz,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-30T01:05:40.001+0000) > > Comet and aerie aren't abilities, so I don't think you can shield them. Not sure soraka should get healing for q'ing you though if you block it. but does it really make sense for comment and aery to still go off even though no damage was done?
Yes. Think about it this way... if you hit Sion when he's got w up and didn't break his shield with the ability... shouldn't it proc aerie or comet even though no actual damage was done to his health bar? Yeah, it should. Similar concept with sivir and spellshield.
: Is sivirs spell shield working as intended, Riot?
Comet and aerie aren't abilities, so I don't think you can shield them. Not sure soraka should get healing for q'ing you though if you block it.
: We don't like to say it's our teams fault but...
A great way to decide if that's true or not is to look at your stats vs those of others playing the same champ(s) in your elo. Also consider comparing to top ranked players for those champs. If you're doing above average and doing so without your team giving you that edge... then yeah you're likely being held back by consistently underperforming teammates. I've made plenty of posts about this only to be met with the downvote police, mods claiming everything from "you kda shame people" or "you just play for kda", you're not that good, it's just one game (when it's clearly more like 18 of the last 20 games), etc. Last time I had that happen, I took top ranked NA player stats for my main and showed how he ranks above others in his elo... then compared them to how I rank compared to others in my elo. The stats were eerily similar for all things: fighting, farming, teamfight, etc. So it's not like I have one area of my game that's weak compared to the averager player in my elo and that's holding me back. It quite literally is the case of team holding me back. Hard to argue when stats show me to be as dominant (for my elo) as top ranked player in NA is in their elo, yet I have** 30% lower winrate on same champ** despite putting up same level of stats for my elo. That shut up the mod real quick - it's been over a week and still no bs nonsense reply.
: games are not won by those who do well but by those who do poorly
> [{quoted}](name=JarodDempsey,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=n6ZBzp7H,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-29T22:16:35.201+0000) > > games are not won by those who do well but by those who do poorly Too true
: What is the Hardest Role in this game? please help me out.
Support was traditionally the role that got hate on and abused by everyone else. Somebody messes up? Support better die in their place. We need wards? Support's job. Somebody doens't get any gold?... that's the support. But a lot has been done for the support role to give it more power and income. Also there's generally a few op supports in most patches with common reoccuring ones like brand as an example. So overall the role has gotten better and people blame them less when it's not their fault... probably in part thanks to everyone playing the role some with autofill and therefore having better appreciation for and understanding of the role and all it's challenges. Jungle... can have one of the hardest roles, but it's honestly a 50/50 when people blame the jg. Half the time it's laners being reckless and bad, and the other half it is lazy junglers that don't understand basic concepts. And this is sadly true all the way up to pro play. Just look at matches where one jungler is constantly ganking lanes and making plays to help their team while the other jg makes half-hearted or extremely predictable plays and mostly focuses on optimizing farm. Who wins? The proactive jungler that helps their team wins most of the time. All these crap posts about... omg I had one camp stolen, I can't win the game. Or... I can't counter-gank for you right now, I need to farm X camp first cuz that's the optimal route and otherwise I'm losing out on gold efficiency. Guess what... the "most efficient" is only ever so in a vacuum. Look at pro play for example. Good teams do "the best/most optimal" play and punish their opponents by pulling it off. The BEST teams though... they KNOW what "the best" play is for their opponents and deny them that possibility while punishing their opponents even if they're prepared to counterplay the "best play" of the other team because... they KNOW that will be prepared for so they take the next most optimal option that the other team ISN'T prepared for. I.E. ... if diving bot is best option but other team obviously knows that and will play accordingly to counter it, you go punish them where they are vulnerable BECAUSE they prepared for your best option. Because if you do your best option, it either fails and you wasted your time or you get countered and die. But too many jg from pro to iron 4 treat everything like it's in a vacuum and all is static. Well it's not. Jg camps are largely static. If given choice between... gank now, get flash or kill enemy and do jg camp a whole 20 sec later or... do jg camp now, your laner is probably dead cuz other jg was proactive or at best case you missed your opportunity and now have nothing to do for another 20 sec well... you made the wrong choice to do camp first. You need to consider what can be gained vs what can be lost. Omg I can't gank or they'll steal the raptors I was about to farm before ganking? No. Consider what you gain vs what you lose. A) you kill enemy laner, go back do raptors, "wasted" 20 sec getting kill now vs 20 sec doing literally nothing and not getting kill later B) you win 2v2 or 3v3 cuz enemy jg did same thing, now you can take their jg AND go back to yours C) you force enemy to base, enemy MAY have stolen your raptors, but now you can take his cuz 2v1 and he can't do shit to stop you... moreover you might 2v1 kill him for invading etc. In all these scenarios... you stand to gain as much if not more than anything you stand to lose. All it takes is realizing this and recognizing lanes and neutral objectives are a lot more dynamic than most jg camps; therefore, you can always go back to the relatively static objective of your camp later and you don't have that same option with the lane or neutral objective. *another example of what I hate about junglers that they do all too often: ping enemy jg is coming to gank my lane and then go farm jg camp right by my lane instead of come position to countergank. Like let's see.... we can screw over our toplaner, help enemy jg, help enemy toplaner, and farm a jg camp. Or... we can countergank because this toplaner is winning 1v1, we win the 2v2, and I get lead over enemy jg while helping my toplaner and putting him in position where he's likely to help me control the enemy jg. Toplaner wins out, I win out, and... I can get that camp at my leisure (and possibly my opponent's camps) too after snagging the 2v2 win toplane. But no... jg from iron 4 to pro play choose jg camp over countergank. That's as dumb as if someone said you can get $20 now if you punch your friend in the face... or you can get $20 to share now and $50 to share 1 min from now if you don't punch your friend in the face... and then you go and punch your friend in the face because it's more money for YOU immediately. Almost everything that used to be said about supports is now generally true of how people treat toplaners. One toplaner? Gets camped, gets 0 help from team, is treated as tp slave, is denied farm when grouping with team so less gold income, and is supposed to be a meatshield and just run in, zone enemies as much as possible and die for team's mistakes or to ensure their victories. And even when said toplaner manages to go even or win a 1v2 lane with camping enemy jg or non-stop roams on them by fed enemy midlaner without any help from team... they're still all too often abused by their team who somehow manages to lose despite having a 4v3 over rest of map during laning phase. Their team is full of squishy champs that lost vs their counterparts during laning phase and now do 0 damage while also tanking no damage. Which results in toplaner having to be able to: tank fed enemy adc, tank fed magic damage dealer who might have %hp damage, and provide the majority of the damage in a teamfight. Yeah... nobody is supposed to be able to do all that. But when it can't be done... team sure acts like it's toplaner's fault. Or oh... you're splitpushing, killing a tower, and pulling 1 or more of the most fed enemies away from their team and dealing with them all by yourself? Wow... how can you be so trash, you cost us 2 towers and an inhib cuz u splitpush. Uh... excuse me? You lost a 4v4 or 4v3 and 2 towers and inhib all by yourselves. You weren't 4v5. It's not my fault if you can't manage to group 4 and hold a tower vs 3-4 enemies. Or the countless times I've 1v3 applied pressure vs 3 most fed members on enemy team as my team fails to group 4 and 4v2 do ANYTHING useful... only to have team talk to me like I'm an asshole for not grouping and dragging 3 fed enemies with me. Uh... sorry but if you can't 4v2, me grouping and dragging 3 fed enemies along with me isn't going to help our odds. But thanks for placing blame on me... very nice of you. So toplane is without a doubt one of the most unrewarding and underappreciated roles. I agree that jg may be harder to play, but at least if you play it right you're generally rewarded with a lot of potential to influence the game. Toplane? You can snowball 1v2, get your bot lane ahead by a good margin where they should be able to self-snowball, and still get screwed... and all the while team will generally lay blame on you while failing to do anything useful themselves.
Valerdi (NA)
: Kindred is the only one who needs a buff
KIndred is a somewhat challenging niche pick adc mostly played in the jg. She takes more thought than graves or yi, but if you have some skill she's perfectly fine as-is. Do things right, she can be downright op; do them wrong, and she feels useless. That's kinda the price you pay for playing a short ranged squishy champ in a game filled with 1-shot burst and near-1-shot dps champs. But that doesn't mean she's weak.
Wuks (NA)
: This mission pretty much sums up ranked matchmaking
Yeah, complete with the +5 or -20. Finally a post where boards actually upvote honesty. Most stuff like that gets downvotes and illogical/nonsensical posts arguing against it.
: Irelia: Re-Focusing Her Design
If they did option 1... you just end up with yasuo that has 1-2 sec cd on dashing to same target during fights. Anything longer than this for lockout on dashing to same target isn't reasonable for the irelia player. But anything this short leaves her even more frustratingly mobile to play against. It reduces burst a little bit, but not much. If they do option 2, well that's a whole nother headache of multiple balance sessions to try to find the right amount of armor pen or shred to equal what it currently does. If you do shred, it's even worse because people already seem to incorrectly blame cleaver as the reason tanks are weak due to the armor shred it offers during teamfights. Truth is, it has much more to do with conqueror, crit, %hp damage, and too much power given to dps champs both melee and ranged as far as being able to kill tanks w/o building any armor pen. Cleaver armor shred is about the last reason on the list. Still... adding it to irelia would create tons of complaints about that. Continuing with option 2, that might just lead to assassin irelia in the same line as zed or talon... with lethality items. You give her armor shred or pen and she just buys more of it so she deals true damage to squishies and then all your changes have accomplished is to change her itemization while still leaving her an assassin with nuke damage. If we look at option 3, we aren't reducing her damage at all. And the sustain she gets from her bladesurge is pretty close to what an adc gets from their aa's mid/late game so I don't think it's really broken or anything. I'm no irelia fan and I think she did deserve some nerf along the line of the latest one she got, but people need to realize adc and other roles are different. I see so many posts like this irelia one... and in many of those (not this one) people complain about the burst adc's have to deal with and blah blah blah it's not fair and no counterplay. But the truth is while it's frustrating to play against burst from melee champs and get deleted in 2.5 sec with no counterplay... the same can be said for playing against adc's. You've got your untouchable double tear iceborn ezreal that no melee can stick to long enough to kill by themselves. You've got your mid game lucian that hurts like hell when most adc's are "weak" and is very hard to stick to while having tons of burst damage himself. You've got your vayne that kills anything with just 2 items and 4-7 aa's all while stealthing around with q's and condemning you away so you can't stick to her and only gets more scary with more items. And then you've got your mid/late and late game crit champs who at that point kill anyone in sight with about 7 aa's or fewer. So if you teamfight vs them and you get cc'd at all, you die to them with 0 counterplay. You got on them and nuked 90% of their hp before getting cc'd for 0.5 sec thanks to your tenacity? You still die. And die with 0 counterplay because crit makes ranged champs have greater movespeed than melee in combat and most melee don't have 2 sec cd gapcloser to overcome that. This is WHY melee's have adapted to build for 1-shot. Because of unfair and illogical higher movespeed of adc's in combat thanks to adc itemization. Either the melee 1-shots, or they're killed with equal lack of counterplay. Sure... it might take a whole extra 1.5 sec, but it's equally bs with no counterplay. Tying it together... irelia is a caster-based champ. Caster champs largely do burst damage. Sure there's ryze and cassio to name 2 common sort-of exceptions, but even they have some burst. Because irelia is melee, the burst part must apply even more... because she must take greater risk and close the gap more to do said damage. If they were to make irelia more sustained damage focused like cassio or ryze as a caster-based champ, then they would also have to give her a way to KEEP her targets marked longer AND more ways to mark her targets for continued casting of bladesurge... because ult and a singular flawless wouldn't cut it. Moreover, that leaves her much more at the mercy of enemy cc in teamfights and potentially getting blown up before she does any damage... much like a caster-based more high skill floor required melee version of a crit adc. She'd have all of the challenges they do and none of the benefits of the range, ability to build raw damage, etc. that they have. I think if champs and roles were properly balanced and fights made to be much longer, your idea of irelia the way I describe her in last paragraph could be made to work as a dps champ. But with the current "quick fights, quick games" mentality meta Riot wants to force, it isn't a very viable or reasonably feasible thing to enact. Either she's left very bursty, or her damage is so abysmal that if she gets focused at all, she's useless and might as well be considered troll pick. As far as fixing adc's, bruisers and fighters, tanks, etc. I've made several posts about what needs to be done to be fair to ALL sides. So many people just look at things from the narrow perspective of the champ/role THEY like to play. I don't. I consider what frustrations each champ/role is dealing with as well as what crazy strengths it might bring to the table at some points of the game too. I consider counterplay to what a champ does and if that even exists or is a fair/reasonably feasible counterplay or if more/different/better counterplay should be available. And then I make recommendations to reduce frustrations for all roles that would return champs/roles more to doing the job they've traditionally been made to do, to reduce the more broken aspects of champions, to improve counterplay (and counterplay options), etc. that in the end would make it more fair and more about skill for everyone. Because I feel the game should be testing skill more than it should be testing ability to pick x to auto-beat y.
: > [{quoted}](name=woodvsmurph,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jzABx4I1,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T23:46:23.789+0000) > > Burst combo: approximately 2.5 sec or more to deal - does maybe 2k damage > Adc dps: get off 4 aa's and an ability or two during this time... aa's dealing at least 500 damage to bursty enemies per aa... 4*500= 2000 or 2k damage. > > Burst champion after that burst combo... mediocre dps, 4+ sec cd for burst to be up again > Adc with crit... essentially the same damage > > Ummm... yeah I understand dps. But please, keep this up. I'm interested how long you can keep lying to yourself.{{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} > > Now following your logic so far, you'll point out how it takes 2.5 sec to deal that damage and that before the 2.5 sec, like say at 1 sec or 1.5 sec, the burst champ has dealt more damage. Or that the adc would die from that damage. To which I'll point out that looking at damage in 1 sec is irrelevant because 1k damage slightly faster than your opponent dealing 1k damage is irrelevant if you are both alive after sustaining that level of damage. Thus why I look at around 2.5 sec and doing enough damage to blow up a squishy. > > Moreover, I can point out things like... adc's can do this damage from longer range which means the other champion sustains significant damage before even getting in range to return damage. Or that if you counter this point of mine by citing things like kalista, lucian, or vayne... they get bonus damage and other safety features in their kit to help them out... which means the dps they deal is going to be higher. > > My bad... I just ruined our next two post/counter-posts by having that whole debate by myself in this post. Not really? Who cares about adcs when they don't have a gimmick or can't kill you from touching you once? I guess you just can't possibly understand the difference between adc dps and someone barely being in range for 0.25 seconds -> stun (optional) -> death. It's really funny. Hilarious, even!
You've just proven that either you don't know how to read or you have very serious short-term memory loss. Either way it makes whatever you say irrelevant. I suggest either you at least graduate from 2nd grade or that you stop doing drugs - depending on which of the above is correct - before you puke out more nonsense. Then again... if it's the first one, you won't be able to understand what I'm writing so there's not much purpose in me putting it here. Oh well.
Zekutsu (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=woodvsmurph,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bJaOT9uV,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-01-08T19:37:20.637+0000) > > Look at the assassin's perspective? What the heck are they supposed to do in a teamfight if they can't 1-shot an adc or support? > > Let's see... get cc'd, do 400 damage cuz adc get's a shield, and die a whole second slower to the adc than it takes an assassin to kill the adc... with equal lack of counterplay. > > Explain to me how that sounds fair or fun for the assassin. Explain how that is skillful by the adc. It's not. It's no more fair or fun than assassin 1-shotting adc with no counterplay. It's the same thing. But ya'll never open your damn eyes and look at the whole picture. > > Me? I've argued for nerfing my class of champs so they don't 1-shot adc's so easily cuz adc's deserve some counterplay mid game where they are most vulnerable. But the other side of that coin is that... I shouldn't get killed later game with equal lack of counterplay by an adc in 2.5 sec because I got cc'd for half a second. Instead of just thinking about YOU YOU YOU and your class, think about what's best for the game. What's most fair for EVERYONE.{{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} The thing is that when you tf its mid-late game. You as assassin had plenty of time to get a lead and close the game. But now its 35 min in, Im ADC, I ve been next to useless so far, now its my turn to oneshot u and not the other way around.
Adc's are supposed to provide dps... not assassinate people. Adc's aren't meant to be the sole carry and turning them into one creates an unhealthy game. You don't like league of tanks? That was the result of adc dps and burst being too high for damage dealers to have any relevance in other roles. You don't like conqueror? That's the result of league of tanks which happened because of adc's. You don't like bruisers building 0 defensive items aside from stuff that just gives ad+hp (titanic, sterak, etc.)? They don't bother with actual tank items because adc's don't even need to bother with armor pen to kill tanks. So they get about the same defensive value out of those bruiser items as they would out of building randuin's vs a crit adc. And because adc's damage without any armor pen is so absurd combo'd with the fact that some mentally challenged people think it's ok for ranged dps champs to run faster than a melee can in combat, bruisers and fighters are forced to either 1-shot an adc or just die. Because after they use their gapcloser to get onto the adc, they will not live long enough for their gapcloser to come up again (exception for stuff like yas and akali) if the adc gets any kind of peel. So your insane dps, ability to ignore defensive items other than on supertanks building pure defensive, and your bs movespeed in combat from crit items has forced bruisers and fighters into 1-shot builds. Moreover, your greed for raw damage without building any defensive items whatsoever reinforces and exaggerates this. And adc's are far from useless early and mid game. Nor are they without damage. It's exactly people like you that appear completely unreasonable and incapable of being open-minded about considering the whole of what's going on for everyone involved that leads to such swingy up and down meta's for champs. Lethality is weak Riot... please buff. (buffs slightly) WTF Riot, lethality broken, please nerf. (Nerfs back to where it was to begin with) Why didn't you just put lethality in this spot to begin with Riot? Adc's too weak, enchanter supports underpowered. (league of ardent censer activated) Eh... adc's are in an ok spot right now, but I still don't like assassins being able to assassinate them up to the 15 min mark. Also, why so many tanks? It boring. And on and on it goes. Gee... I wonder why. Maybe because some people can't open their eyes and see common sense. Whaaaat? A late game scaling champ being weaker than an early/mid game champ during the early and mid game? That's bullshit Riot. You need to buff us now. (what about early/mid game adc?) They don't count... they're supposed to be strong then. (Ok, we'll buff your early/mid game but cut down your late game advantage by an equal amount to keep net power the same) WTF Rito... you nerf my scaling? I mean my mid game is equal to that of early/mid game champ now, but now I'm not insanely stronger than them late game? So bs. *the sad thing is you people don't understand how there is a problem with someone making such claims in an unsarcastic fashion.
Sirrkas (EUW)
: >playing champs meant for mid in the jungle, Ok, lets assume you would be right. People would get punished, if anyone plays a champion, that is not usually seen on that lane or not designed for that position. Now we take the earliest Meta and try to enforce it, by banning everyone, who does something else. We would have been stuck for about 8 years now with Ashe mid, 2 top, 2 bot and no jungler. The game would become very boring really fast. Nobody is ever allowed to try something new. Twitch players get banned, when they go jungle. Zyraplayers get banned, when they go support. The proteams would have livetimebans, because they introduce new, stuff. Like for example MF or Sion support or Victor top. You would also have to ban players, that laneswap. Because the ADC + Support in the current meta are expected to go bot. But laneswaps are a part of the game, because you don't want change, everyone now has to stay on his lane. Maybe until a timer says it is free to leave your lane now. When midlane and bot help at dragon, they have to get banned, because river is not their lane.
Playing champs in new roles is fine... but you should show some level of competence in it. Like you wouldn't see someone in silver play fiddles jungle and start fear and build adc crit items on him. Maybe in a normals game where they're just messing around sure... but not in ranked. I'm perfectly fine with weird champs or items, etc. I had weird but very op build for old morde, I brought morg and naut to the support role and toplane before it was cool or even thought of by pro's. But it needs to be thought out and you need to be able to play it with some level of competence for your elo if doing it in ranked. Like last season I decided to play reworked galio top after not having played him since rework in a ranked game. I cost my team that game playing very poorly, getting tilted, and not working the best with my team due to frustration at the way they treated me for losing toplane. I might have been upset about the way they treated me and maybe they deserved to be talked to for that... but I also would have agreed with them that they had a right to report me for feeding... because I should have done a much better job after having a rough start but instead I kept doing stupid things and not showing the basic skills it took for me to climb to that elo. I didn't play like I deserved to be in gold that match. You can lose lane, lose game, and still play in a way that enables your team to have a chance... a way that shows you deserve to be in your elo but simply didn't win the game or maybe have the best match. And if any reports of me that match had been looked at and I were demoted to say... silver 4, well then I'd say that I honestly deserved it. I would just have to earn my way back to gold. If I deserved gold... no big deal, I'd get there eventually and maybe next time I had a galio game start like that I would play better like my teammates deserved and give them a chance. If I didn't actually deserve gold to begin with, then great... I'd be closer to the elo I actually belonged in which would: a) give me a chance to actually do well in a match and feel better about myself and my gameplay b) avoid more teammates in future games being frustrated at me costing them games they deserved to win c) avoid boosting opponents that didn't deserve to win but did because I threw harder than my teammates could reasonably be expected to carry
Prandine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=woodvsmurph,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZmLV1LpA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-23T01:08:47.254+0000) > > They don't tackle both. They tackle only blatantly obvious chat violations. Chat violations are easier to detect and prove since the evidence of the misbehavior is most clearly there. When it comes to gameplay toxicity though Riot has to be sure there's enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of actual trolling/griefing, which is difficult to get because there are some people out there who will cry foul at any sort of poor play or disagreement and label that as trolling/griefing even when it's not. Only once it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt that a player is trolling do they get punished. In case you don’t believe me on this point here are some examples of gameplay trolls being banned. Yes it’s just a few examples, but it proves that they do get punished. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/E4LnThmW-most-ridiculous-chat-restriction-i-have-ever-seen-in-my-life?comment=0011 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/KHAL90oW-stuck-at-honor-zero?comment=0003 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/3jEVVlsY-permanently-banned-with-ingame-log?comment=003e https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/jFwTE8Oj-playing-off-meta-in-ranked-int-feeding-ban?comment=0039 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/sU5wOfFJ-proof-that-the-automated-system-is-broken?show=rundown https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/GrmPK5yP-intentional-feeding-but-i-didnt-feed?comment=0006 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/MKBQUoKd-banned-for-intentionally-feeding https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/KTq4tjIF-i-dont-get-it-how-riot-bans-a-player-because-another-kid-draven-decides-to-take-all-the-kills https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/xW5z7auF-proof-that-riot-employees-ban-without-providing-clear-evidencecertainty-of-an-infraction https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/RAfb0McT-got-banned-for-intentional-feeding-for-a-game-with-02-death https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/5bqNJurI-banned-for-a-bad-game
If you look at farm, duel, teamfight, level advantage, cs advantage, etc. stats of top ranked renekton in NA compared to other renektons in his elo (and he might even be smurfing on that account)... I actually have comparable advantages to that in my elo (not smurfing) compared to other renektons in my elo. If you look at the average renekton in my elo, they are playing for laning phase with pta plus domination (strongest rune setup for laning phase) plus taking ignite. They also get at least 1-2 early ganks to start them snowballing most games. If you look at me... I'm running one of the weakest rune setups for laning phase (not my words... you wanna debate take it up with RTO challenger elo renekton) and I'm running tp. I average less than 1 friendly gank in laning phase while more often than not being counterpicked and playing vs an opponent with ignite. As in... all those games where you see streamers and pro's complain about being camped so hard and saying it's basically their team's job to carry them because they can't do anything but just try to survive and farm... that's MOST of my games. Now, if you consider that how the heck am I NOT SMURFING and still outperforming the average renekton at my elo during laning phase... to the same degree as highest ranked renekton in NA does? Bearing that in mind... let's look at some proof that griefing or inting teammates aren't being properly dealt with. Said top ranked renekton winrate - 79%. My winrate - keep in mind... I'm putting up same level of performance as this guy based on elo - 49%. Hmm... 30% difference in winrate. While performing at the same caliber based on other players in said player's elo. Now if it were 0-5%, we might dismiss it as chance or coincidence. But 30%? That's way beyond statistical anomaly. So what does that mean? Clearly there is a difference in quality of teammates. And clearly I am statistically way too regularly getting sub-par teammates. Not even just sub-par... outright boosted. Before we go any further... no I'm not claiming I belong in diamond elo instead of gold or something stupid like that. If I were, that would be solid evidence to dismiss my case. The fact that I'm not shows that I'm not blowing smoke and just maybe... I'm someone you should listen to. Actually listen to. Not politely reply to with the same copy paste bs that is so often used and hid behind because people don't want to admit there is a problem. So one of 3 possibilities is happening to me all of which are unfortunate and should be looked into and fixed: A) 1-4 of my teammates consistently have something akin to... the worst game of their entire season whenever they end up on my team. Now this happens to everyone once in awhile... but if it's happening MOST of my games, then it becomes very statistically unlikely that ONE guy should have these people on his team for that game nearly every match. B) teammates are hella boosted. I have some pity for them, but they need to be insta-demoted for both their sake and for the sake of their teammates AND opponents. You guys don't allow elo boosting... well this indirectly and unintentionally leads to exactly that. It grossly skews people's elo. It would be the same thing as putting me in high diamond elo game and pretending/excusing me as merely having a bad game. Well guess what... it's not a bad game; I'd be boosted. There's skills players have there, basic mechanics, macro skills, etc. that I don't have. Anyone who actually understands the skill level of players deserving that elo could look at my play and go... this guy is boosted; he plays like a gold. If your opponents all have a set of basic skills, you have a set of basic skills for your elo... your teammates need to have that too. No I'm not saying that if I can get 6 cs per min a teammate getting 5 cs per min is boosted. But if players at my elo all know (micro and macro) A, B, C, D, E, F and my teammate can clearly only do A, C they are boosted. For their sake, for my sake, and for the sake of our opponents, they need to be insta-demoted to their proper elo. Why? Let's look back at my theoretical visit to high diamond elo for an explanation. Well to drop down to gold where I belong based on my skill and knowledge, I'm going to have to lose probably at least 7 or 8 games possibly more. During this time I will have potentially boosted 7*5= 35 opponents to higher elo than they deserve and drug down 4*7=28 teammates to lower elo and mmr than they deserve. But... it's just 1 game for each of them that I impact so not a big deal right? Wrong. They in turn each have a micro version of this effect that I've had on their next games due to over-rated or under-rated mmr and outperforming or underperforming expectations based on that mmr. And what if they run into ANOTHER person in my theoretical situation... further reducing or inflating their mmr. As you can see, the problem can grow increasingly bad. And it begins to affect more and more people... leading to exponential bad effects for tons of players and a very very long time and many many matches for mmr to sort this out... all the while running into more data skewing situations like this one along the way which lead to further setbacks in resolving the problem. C) teammates are trolling, griefing, win trading, and/or inting. Ok, so we've done a check and teammates clearly know how to do A, B, C, D, E, and F. But they are simply refusing to do that even though they know how. Then they deserve to be at this elo... at least as far as skill and knowledge are concerned. But they're not playing like it. Since we know they are capable of playing like it... consistently... then they are underperforming by a large margin on purpose. Whether it be extreme tilt, disliking a particular teammate, wanting to stay at their elo rather than get in promotion match, etc. they are choosing to sabotage their team's efforts. It doesn't matter if it's one game or 20... it is wrong. If I go and curse someone out and tell them I'm going to bleep their (insert family member name here), it doesn't take 20 games to go... maybe we should do something about the reports on this guy. It only takes 1. The same standards should apply for griefing, inting, win trading, etc. Well how do we know it's one and not the other? It's too difficult to tell off one game? No. That's bs. If I die 5x 1v1 to nasus, and I keep trying to force fights on nasus all game or even start trying to 1v3 or 1v5 nasus and his teammates... I'm inting. It doesn't matter if I'm tilted or not... I'm inting. I have actively chosen to not give my team a chance at winning. I've abandoned playing with A, B, C, D, E, and F even though I've shown from other matches that I'm capable of these. Let me be clear here... it's not my kda that makes me inting or should get me punished. It's the fact that I'm intentionally doing it and intentionally refusing to give my team a fighting chance. It's the fact that I've abandoned the most basic of skills which are REQUIRED to climb to said elo and which I've proven that I'm capable of. It's the fact that it is repetitive. Maybe not repetitive game after game... but repetitive within the match. Do something once, it's a mistake. Do it twice, it's questionable. Do it a 6th time in a row? I'm inting or griefing. And it's also because I'm doing it... it's not nasus bringing his jungler and 2 man tower diving me; I'm forcing the fight on him actively trying to duel him when I have no business doing so. That's an example of how it is extremely easy to tell the difference between someone having a bad game and someone inting, griefing, win trading, etc. So... if these people were being properly dealt with there would not exist the 30% difference in winrate between said top NA renekton and myself while we both manage to put up the same kind of statistical performance consistently in our respective elo's. There's some real-life stats for you sir along with some common sense analysis. Do you guys deal with a few of these people op or I claim are a problem? Sure. Like 1%. The other 99% are out there continuing to ruin people's games, screw up mmr, lead to frustration for everyone with poor matchmaking, and breed the kind of blatant chat toxicity you guys DO properly address. All I'm asking is that Riot properly deal with this kind of toxicity with equal integrity as they do with blatant chat violations.{{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
x0nex (NA)
: Firstly, WOW! I really really appreciate you. Thank you so much for taking the time to write me this. Secondly, I enjoy playing auto-attack range champs. I went bot ADC. I've played a bit of Jinx and Miss Fortune especially, some Ashe, Kalista, Kai'sa, Twitch, and Varus, although I'm not terribly bad at them in bronze, I read that playing bot in bronze is difficult because of all the factors to consider. Enemy ADC could be better than me, Enemy Support could be really deadly, their Jungler ganks and is doing well, my Jungler could be just farming all game or maybe they made some mistakes and now are way behind, or maybe my Support is worse than I am and feeding my lane. I moved to Jungling, and for a while I was really having a good time. A friend suggested I try Teemo Jungle, and when Sated Devourer was an item. I found that Teemo Jungle worked really well, and was so much fun. I really enjoy his moveset, the shrooms work like painful wards and his invis has got me out of so many tight situations. Unfortunately, this doesn't work nearly as well and I have to believe its time to stop doing it, although I do go into quick matches from time to time to remember my good friend, the Swift Scout. I tried Kindred because of the range attacks, but he build doesn't work well for me. I often really mess up her ult, or find I'm taking very unnecessary risks to try to claim my Wolf's hunts. I found that I can jungle Amumu and it does alright most of the time. It's a rather boring game, so I don't enjoy it as much but it does work mostly. I tried Top lane, but I found only Nasus really. I love his scaling for long game, but I don't feel like I'm changing the game if we are losing. And I feel like that is what I need to be able to do to get out, I can't win all games but if I can increase the chances then I should do alright. I don't really know. Finally, I went to Mid. II've tried Karthus, although fun to Ult regularly especially when they are weak, I don't really get much out of his build, although his dying sometimes really pays off. I tried Annie, and that's enjoyable but I'm not sure if she is enough. I've been really enjoying Veigar, I read that he is a good choice champ to getting out of Bronze. He is deadly, and since playing him I've gone from B5 to B3 and almost into B2 now. I just don't know if it's enough either. Veigar is so very weak, so if a Yi or something cuts me up while trying to team fight then the whole game could be over. I feel like I need a champ that can keep me strong too, so I can save games when my team mates are behind. Thirdly, I think it isn't so much the ability to play a champ in a lane or such. I think there is just more I need to learn. I select my items based on highly rated builds, and if I play enough sometimes I change guides and find new items that I prefer. But I don't really know what item to pick in specific scenarios. Like you said, if I'm ahead or behind, tankier vs glass cannon, etc. I just build the same thing each game over and over, and sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. The laning phase, especially with freezing a lane and what-have-you, is Greek to me. For example, (with Veigar, since I've been playing a bunch of him lately) I find that they out push me. I'm always fighting with the turret to keep my gold. I can't use abilities too often, because my mana is always stretched thin at the start. It works well sometimes because my Jungler can often snag opportune kills, but I feel like I'm losing money. I usually keep Teleport and Flash, I use the Teleport to return to claim XP and gold. But late game I sometimes forget about it. I just push lanes, fall back if I feel threatened by enemy ganks, and either successfully blast at tower or flee. There are many more champs that I'm still learning, but I've got a pretty good understanding of most. I play ARAM often to get me out of my comfort level, and learn a champs moves and how their mechanics work. That's actually how I found that I liked Veigar, once I learned of his stacks. I think I also suck at PC gaming. I used to be a console gamer mostly, and been making the transition to PC as well. I find that my clicking accuracy leaves a lot to be desired. I miss skill shots, I over/under predict the enemies movements, I walk into minions, sometimes I just auto attack a minion when I'm really trying to fight a champ. I have gotten better at map awareness, but sometimes I miss whats going on. I get focused in on the immediately in front of me, and don't see the surroundings. OH! and I have been told by everyone to switch the screen to move with the mouse but I'm so bad when I do. I lose sight of the battle, I get stuck/lost, it's really uncomfortable to play with the screen free-moving. Voicing this issue right now, makes me think I should try breaking this habit. Maybe? Lastly, I just want to play with a team of players that can tell me what I'm doing wrong and were to improve. Is that even possible? haha
> [{quoted}](name=x0nex,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=THvNLHGG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-24T05:14:20.914+0000) > > Firstly, > WOW! I really really appreciate you. Thank you so much for taking the time to write me this. > > Secondly, > I enjoy playing auto-attack range champs. I went bot ADC. I've played a bit of Jinx and Miss Fortune especially, some Ashe, Kalista, Kai'sa, Twitch, and Varus, although I'm not terribly bad at them in bronze, I read that playing bot in bronze is difficult because of all the factors to consider. Enemy ADC could be better than me, Enemy Support could be really deadly, their Jungler ganks and is doing well, my Jungler could be just farming all game or maybe they made some mistakes and now are way behind, or maybe my Support is worse than I am and feeding my lane. > > I moved to Jungling, and for a while I was really having a good time. A friend suggested I try Teemo Jungle, and when Sated Devourer was an item. I found that Teemo Jungle worked really well, and was so much fun. I really enjoy his moveset, the shrooms work like painful wards and his invis has got me out of so many tight situations. Unfortunately, this doesn't work nearly as well and I have to believe its time to stop doing it, although I do go into quick matches from time to time to remember my good friend, the Swift Scout. I tried Kindred because of the range attacks, but he build doesn't work well for me. I often really mess up her ult, or find I'm taking very unnecessary risks to try to claim my Wolf's hunts. I found that I can jungle Amumu and it does alright most of the time. It's a rather boring game, so I don't enjoy it as much but it does work mostly. > > I tried Top lane, but I found only Nasus really. I love his scaling for long game, but I don't feel like I'm changing the game if we are losing. And I feel like that is what I need to be able to do to get out, I can't win all games but if I can increase the chances then I should do alright. I don't really know. > > Finally, I went to Mid. II've tried Karthus, although fun to Ult regularly especially when they are weak, I don't really get much out of his build, although his dying sometimes really pays off. I tried Annie, and that's enjoyable but I'm not sure if she is enough. I've been really enjoying Veigar, I read that he is a good choice champ to getting out of Bronze. He is deadly, and since playing him I've gone from B5 to B3 and almost into B2 now. I just don't know if it's enough either. Veigar is so very weak, so if a Yi or something cuts me up while trying to team fight then the whole game could be over. I feel like I need a champ that can keep me strong too, so I can save games when my team mates are behind. > > Thirdly, > I think it isn't so much the ability to play a champ in a lane or such. I think there is just more I need to learn. I select my items based on highly rated builds, and if I play enough sometimes I change guides and find new items that I prefer. But I don't really know what item to pick in specific scenarios. Like you said, if I'm ahead or behind, tankier vs glass cannon, etc. I just build the same thing each game over and over, and sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. > > The laning phase, especially with freezing a lane and what-have-you, is Greek to me. For example, (with Veigar, since I've been playing a bunch of him lately) I find that they out push me. I'm always fighting with the turret to keep my gold. I can't use abilities too often, because my mana is always stretched thin at the start. It works well sometimes because my Jungler can often snag opportune kills, but I feel like I'm losing money. I usually keep Teleport and Flash, I use the Teleport to return to claim XP and gold. But late game I sometimes forget about it. I just push lanes, fall back if I feel threatened by enemy ganks, and either successfully blast at tower or flee. > > There are many more champs that I'm still learning, but I've got a pretty good understanding of most. I play ARAM often to get me out of my comfort level, and learn a champs moves and how their mechanics work. That's actually how I found that I liked Veigar, once I learned of his stacks. > > I think I also suck at PC gaming. I used to be a console gamer mostly, and been making the transition to PC as well. I find that my clicking accuracy leaves a lot to be desired. I miss skill shots, I over/under predict the enemies movements, I walk into minions, sometimes I just auto attack a minion when I'm really trying to fight a champ. I have gotten better at map awareness, but sometimes I miss whats going on. I get focused in on the immediately in front of me, and don't see the surroundings. OH! and I have been told by everyone to switch the screen to move with the mouse but I'm so bad when I do. I lose sight of the battle, I get stuck/lost, it's really uncomfortable to play with the screen free-moving. Voicing this issue right now, makes me think I should try breaking this habit. Maybe? > > Lastly, > I just want to play with a team of players that can tell me what I'm doing wrong and were to improve. Is that even possible? haha So if you want to learn about wave manipulation, I'd suggest SRO (solo renekton only). Not all his vids are educational as far as this stuff, but he does a lot better job than the average YouTuber about explaining a lot of the basics and his thought process in most vids. He is a toplaner, so it doesn't translate perfectly to mid or bot, but should give you a good general concept of what you are TRYING to do and why at least. *basically the goal is to keep yourself as safe as possible during the laning phase while denying your opponent some minions and making it easy for your jungler to gank your lane. You shouldn't always freeze, but sometimes it's a good tactic. If you lose track of your champ, hit the space bar and it should pop you back. You can also lock your screen onto your champ and toggle on/off via hotkey, but I don't suggest locking your screen because it limits your vision and can make you miss incoming ganks and stuff. Yi can be a real pain. I either try to ban him or make sure my team has multiple hard cc to deal with him. If you can lock him down and focus him to open a fight when he jumps in, he's not too bad. If you don't have RELIABLE hard cc though he can quickly become a nightmare. If you're playing veigar and he jumps you... try to drop your cage on yourself and stand at the edge of it's circle so when he exits alpha strike you stun him. I'm not an adc expert, but I can say that jinx and mf are both more teamfight style adc's. Jinx is fun, but she's pretty reliant on her team to keep her safe and plays around snagging a kill and exploiting her "get exited" movespeed to help her chase and kite for more kills. She's definitely dps focused... like cait, trist, etc. Miss fortune (mf) is more of a shotgun. She's largely about her ult which means she's even more teamfight dependent after laning phase. So she plays a lot different than most other adc's because of this. Great if you can force the enemy team to group up so you can nuke them... not so good if they have several assassins like akali, kha'zix, rengar, zed, shaco, etc. who want to flank you. From all the different champs you listed for each role, it sounds like you enjoy more ranged dps champs rather than burst champs or melee champs. If you're playing mid, you might like to try something such as xerath, vel'koz, fizz (he's melee, but if you want to carry and enjoy nuking people like veigar does then he's got lots of safety and burst), etc. I'd suggest checking out kayle too. She's kind of an aoe damage ranged dps champ. Her ult is also great for being able to help yourself or your teammates turn around a losing fight. If you want a tankier midlaner then galio is meta but I'd also recommend cho'gath. He's fun and has some good built-in sustain from killing minions and champions. It will take awhile to learn to hit his skillshots though. As far as itemization, it sounds like you have a lot of the right idea. Getting builds from good websites is a start... but adjusting them to meet YOUR needs and based on how YOUR match is going is the correct call. I see so many people criticize players for building off-meta when they have no clue how good the item can be. Or they'll have a good build, but not understand why an item is good for a champ so they end up not getting any value out of it. Like if you play karthus and build zhonya but you never use the active to go invulnerable and dodge skillshots when the enemy tries to burst you. Sure you are still getting ap and armor out of the item, but you aren't using it to full effect. This is another reason to pick 1-2 champs per role. It will help you get a better feel for what build works best for you. Like maybe meta jinx build says to go runaan's hurricane, but you prefer phantom dancer. Well then... build phantom dancer. Or maybe you learn that vs a leblanc you need early magic resist as karthus so you rush that even though the website says to build a different item first. That's perfectly ok to build mr first in a tough matchup early game. While in the next game as karthus you might be vs a zed and build at least part of a zhonya first. Again, not the standard build pattern, but perfectly ok to do. Playing 1-2 champs per role really helps you understand this stuff and figure out better what works for you in different situations... reacting to both your team and the opponent team.
Rioter Comments
Ulanopo (NA)
: Riot tackles both. Just because you value performance over experience doesn't mean that toxicity stops being a problem.
They don't tackle both. They tackle only blatantly obvious chat violations. Your adc even admits in chat that all you have to do is group 5 and push with baron? You have 3x in the next 15 min with 3 baron plays and they could do exactly that and win a match. But every time, despite admitting it is what you HAVE TO DO to win and that it is the CORRECT CALL, the run elsewhere by themselves and afk farm only to die and throw away your chance to end. If someone calls me an asshole, I can mute them. Yes it's toxic and it should be addressed, yet it is not MORE toxic than someone throwing the game 3x in a row doing the same thing... a thing they openly admitted is the wrong call and to which they admitted they know the correct call they should be doing instead. The second situation is equally toxic if not moreso, yet it is not punished at all. And you can't mute poor play either which arguably makes it far worse. And the worst still is playing under-the-radar toxicity AND combining that with poor play. Spam ping another player every time they make any little mistake. Talk about their itemization like they're some idiot. Talk about them like they're not contributing to the team at all despite them making a bigger contribution to help the team than anyone else. When they adapt to what you want, you go an change to do something else and screw them over, then make fun of them for it. And all the while, throw the game at every opportunity. But oh wait... that's just you having a bad game. And you never called them an idiot, so you surely weren't harassing them or being toxic in any way. Much like if I were to go to every one of your posts on league and write some fictitious accusations against you but avoid any truly foul language and do that for oh... a month straight... that wouldn't be toxic behavior on my part lol. It would be. Now imagine that I did do that and... you didn't have any power to deal with that kind of behavior, but just had to put up with person after person treating you like that. Do you think you might get mad? Do you think you might say something unkind to me? Yeah, you would. And therein lies the problem. In game... that kind of crap behavior gets excused because it's not blatantly toxic even though anyone in game would tell you that they know exactly what the other person is saying or implying. Plausible deniability or lack of detection in the first place gets it excused. It's not griefing... it's having a bad game. As though you can't tell the difference if you have half decent understanding of the game and actually watch the match. So if I auto an enemy and then farm minions as I run down the lane at their tower I'm just having a bad game as I die over and over... because I dealt damage before I died? Sure... just like how writing all sorts of bad stuff about you but never using a word that would get me punished is totally not toxic (that's sarcasm by the way). So if you'd do something about it on the boards because that behavior isn't ok... why is it excused in game? Oh, and we players don't have the luxury of removing players from the game unlike you guys with people writing stuff on the boards. That's why I told you to imagine me doing that to you on boards except you aren't allowed to do anything about it. Because Riot sure doesn't address it in game. Which leads to the whole... you'd get mad and say something eventually. And if you would do that... how can you fault someone else for doing that in game when facing essentially the same scenario? You can't. Yet that's exactly what Riot does. Do you think op here wants to be toxic? If he did, he wouldn't go to the boards to address that issue. He's going here because of the problem I described which isn't being addressed and needs to be addressed. He wants it fixed, others want it fixed. They're going because they know that if Riot actually addressed the elephant in the room... the REAL toxicity in league properly... then much of the remaining toxicity like that of op wouldn't exist to begin with. You don't pull off the leaves of a weed and expect it to die. You pull up the root. So if there's problematic behavior A that is causing problematic behavior B, you don't fix it by simply addressing problematic behavior B and ignoring or excusing A because behavior B hurt A's feelings. You address the source problem A and voila, you've now solved problem A AND B. But nah... that's to simple. Better to lie to people exhibiting problem B and tell them A is a myth and they're a bad person. Cuz obviously bad people try and solve the problem and give a shit about it when they have a problem (sarcasm). Op here is trying to solve the problem. Pull up the weed at it's root or else you can remove op here and another weed will just grow up from the roots and take it's place. Op here might be a weed, but he's more than likely a leaf. Put another way... you can treat a sick patient by easing the symptoms of their illness and still leave them sick and having to fight off the illness with their own immune system, or you can treat a patient by attacking the source of those symptoms and helping their immune system have an easier time making their body better. Right now, Riot only treats the symptoms of lol's toxicity illness. It leaves the source of it's toxicity untreated. And sadly, lol's innate immune system isn't up to the task of healing itself of toxicity. It needs Riot to step in and actually treat the source.
: Riot, why not just add ranged only items?
I think adc's need smoother scaling. Which means crit items need to feel powerful without needing 3 complete crit items before they have any real effect. However, I also think adc's have too much power late game compared to other champs and need some of that power shaved off in return for a smoother more powerful mid game. Think about how ashe doesn't increase crit chance, but rather the amount of damage each crit does. If that were done with crit items in general, it would leave adc's with a smoother power curve AND better help adc's who don't want to go the full crit route but still buy a crit item {{champion:429}} {{item:3085}} . The second point I'd like to make is that people have gotten a really skewed view of what the adc is supposed to be. In the past, the adc was a squishy but consistent source of dps. Losing one meant you were hurting a lot, but not necessarily unable to still win the teamfight. The adc was free to itemize somewhat defensively and, because damage wasn't absurd and defensive items actually made tanks and bruisers tankier rather than feel like expensive tissue paper, burst to take down adc's was lower and the two factors combined meant they wouldn't get 1-shot to open very many mid game fights. Sure they could get focused and taken out early on... but at a cost. While on the flip side... focusing down the enemy frontline or burst mage or assassin first didn't mean the adc would kill you in 6 aa's or less like they do today. The adc's role back then wasn't necessarily to provide the insane dps that would melt every enemy one at a time in 4-6 aa's apiece. It was often to play cleanup. Oh, my midlaner has nuked the enemy tank very low? Let me just use my dps and range to finish them off. My bruiser and jungler have softened up their midlaner or locked down the enemy adc for me? Let me finish them off. Not from 98% hp to 0%hp... but maybe from 40% to 0%. Because other roles had meaningful damage either burst or dps or both too. Adc's shouldn't and were never intended to kill 4 out of 5 enemies in a teamfight all by themselves. But that's exactly what people seem to expect them to do today. Tanks and tanky bruisers were meant to disrupt enemy engages or dive enemy backlines and create havoc. They were meant not to 1-shot a squishy, but to be a force that deals meaningful damage or provides meaningful cc and peeling while tanking a lot of damage. But with stuff like ardent censer meta, people have lost track of adc's purpose. They expect them to kill anything in sight in 4-6 aa's and more or less solo kill 4 out of 5 enemies in a teamfight by themselves while team just acts as meatshields, peeling, or chasing enemies to lock them down for adc. Is it any surprise then that these tanky bruisers have switched to now itemize in attempt to 1-shot adc's? I mean if they're only going to have 1 chance to get on top of the adc, then they need to make it count. If they're just as squishy with {{item:3143}} as they are with {{item:3053}} ... then why not get extra damage to help you delete the adc? As much as adc's can complain about mid game... bruisers and tanks can complain about adc's in late game. The only reason you don't see much of that is because it rarely reaches that point, but the problem still exists. Everything adc's can complain about mid game and their lack of agency or damage... tanks and bruisers can say the same about their late game in regards to adc's. I just get blown up no matter what I build. I do no meaningful damage. Etc. And fighting to "make crit great again" the way most people these days think about it... that just adds more fuel to this arms race. Rather than look at Riot and go... adc's should be able to kill 4 out of 5 enemies in midgame teamfights too, please fix crit; we should be fixing crit so that adc's can serve the purpose they were intended to fulfill. So that we can also enable other champions to fulfill their intended role. Where maokai is tankier than irelia. Where renekton doesn't jump on an adc and 1-shot them mid game... but also doesn't die from 4 aa's from an adc mid or late game. Adc's aren't supposed to be THE (sole exclusive) carry. They are supposed to be A carry. But until all sides involved in the discussion/debate/argument realize this, and until Riot realizes this, we will be stuck in the perpetual arms race cycle. Adc's broken, adc's unplayable, toplane can only play tanks, tanks are unplayable. Adc's are broken... I'd like to end the cycle. But that takes people waking up and realizing... maybe their role isn't supposed to be so op that it kills 4 out of 5 people every teamfight or else "it's unplayable". Maybe that's not what it's intended to do and it should be fixed in a way that enables adjustments to other roles that let them get back to their intended roles too.
Dr Dog (NA)
: Xenogenic needs to see more use reworking outdated champs
I don't personally enjoy the new xin as much; however, I will say he seems to be in a much better spot for players overall so I'm happy with the rework. I think the changes to his ult make him a bit more unique too. The nunu rework definitely preserved and even improved the character of the champion. Nunu also has more gameplay options than he did before. This was a good rework. If you don't know what I mean... think malphite's trading patterns vs riven - riven has far more options/combo's. Sion was also a good rework although the balance team hasn't always done the best job keeping him in the right spot. But as far as rework kit is concerned, he's got great spells and passive. Well thought out kits that aren't overloaded are hard to find these days, but these champs definitely deliver. For sure if we can get more champs to be done properly like this, I'm all for it.
: Ok, why should all these champs be reworked? Ill give you a rundown Corki: No one knows what this champion does, should u play him mid, adc????? Chogath: I guess he's too simple, I can understand it but I do wish they wouldn't touch Cho Dr. Mundo: The most back and forth champion ever, doesn't fit into a team comp, has a kit that has way more potential to shine Fiddlesticks: This champion sucks, terrible jungle, horrible clear, needs 6 to do anything, way too squishy Kennen: Idk about this one, I think maybe because he's just too much of a bully in higher elos Kogmaw: Really bad rn Nocturn: Has a kit that could be more than just a click R mentality Mordikiser: This guy.... is a mess Pantheon: Glad they're doing this guy, has more potential for a better kit Rammus: Ok I'm pretty angry about this one Skarner: Too situational, can be kited easily Shaco: Idk why they'd rework this guy Udyr: I main an Udyr and I'm mad Volibear: Really bad champion
Udyr suffers the same problem as garen, master yi, voli, etc. He has no way to gapclose other than... run really fast. Which gets abused in high elo and makes him unplayable. So to make him playable, they over-buff his damage if he DOES get on top of you... which makes him op in low elo. So like all those champs, he needs rework.
: Super surprised there isn't yet another Ryze update on that list.
Maybe they just assume we know he'll be reworked again and have stopped bothering to throw him on the list. He's just in a perpetual state of evolving.
FFrazien (EUW)
: If this leak is true...
Maybe they want to take weaker old champs and make them competitive? How is that less noble a goal than taking champs you classify as overly strong and making them more fair to play against?
: > [{quoted}](name=woodvsmurph,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jzABx4I1,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-21T11:23:55.905+0000) > > What item that you listed above literally doubles your ad/dmg for most or all of your aa's? None.{{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} How do you still not understand the concept of dps vs. burst? {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
Burst combo: approximately 2.5 sec or more to deal - does maybe 2k damage Adc dps: get off 4 aa's and an ability or two during this time... aa's dealing at least 500 damage to bursty enemies per aa... 4*500= 2000 or 2k damage. Burst champion after that burst combo... mediocre dps, 4+ sec cd for burst to be up again Adc with crit... essentially the same damage Ummm... yeah I understand dps. But please, keep this up. I'm interested how long you can keep lying to yourself.{{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} Now following your logic so far, you'll point out how it takes 2.5 sec to deal that damage and that before the 2.5 sec, like say at 1 sec or 1.5 sec, the burst champ has dealt more damage. Or that the adc would die from that damage. To which I'll point out that looking at damage in 1 sec is irrelevant because 1k damage slightly faster than your opponent dealing 1k damage is irrelevant if you are both alive after sustaining that level of damage. Thus why I look at around 2.5 sec and doing enough damage to blow up a squishy. Moreover, I can point out things like... adc's can do this damage from longer range which means the other champion sustains significant damage before even getting in range to return damage. Or that if you counter this point of mine by citing things like kalista, lucian, or vayne... they get bonus damage and other safety features in their kit to help them out... which means the dps they deal is going to be higher. My bad... I just ruined our next two post/counter-posts by having that whole debate by myself in this post.
: Is Jax ever going to be looked at?
1 base ad nerf and 15 damage off his q incoming for next patch.
Naalith (NA)
: I have no clue how ADC mains play this role with any regularity.
Did anyone else read the oatmeal cookie comment and think of the Kevin Hart scene in Jumanji where he eats cake and then explodes?
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woodvsmurph

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