: > [{quoted}](name=xAcidik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LU9lg2P1,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-02-12T23:21:48.127+0000) > > "Ur wrong bc ur Bronze 4" > > *says same thing I said but with much less detail and helpfullness* lel Lol I said I mostly agreed with you, just that farming is important too and that your advice to not worry about it should be taken with a grain of salt.
I didn't give that advice, bud. I said that if someone says "learn to CS" that he should tell them they're a skrub. At no point did I say "do not farm." My statement was addressing the tendency for people to say that CSing is a free way out of Bronze. And I'm Bronze 4 on one role, I haven't even done placements for the others, and the one role I am Bronze 4 on is also my least played role.
: > [{quoted}](name=xAcidik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LU9lg2P1,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-12T20:13:41.265+0000) > > If someone says "learn to CS" tell them they're a skrub. > > The reason you struggle more with top and bot lane as opposed to mid lane, is the lanes are longer, and that makes wave management more impactful. I'd suggest finding some wave management guides on YouTube and trying to implement what you learn in your games. > > As far as team fighting, you should first make an effort to learn the important cooldowns of enemy champions. Knowing that Lissandra's ult is up or down should greatly influence how you play a teamfight, as well as knowing what it does. > > Attack move clicking is important on any ranged AD champion and should almost always be done when attacking enemy champions. I bound my attack move click to T instead of A (it feels more natural to me, try it). It helps to avoid misclicking and causing yourself to position badly, or waste time when you could be attacking. The basic premise of it is to move in between each of your shots to maintain optimal positioning in fights, or to avoid skill shots. The final note about attack move clicking is sometimes, if you time your flash well enough, you can put enough distance between you and an attacker so that you can turn on them. You should do this in cases where if you continue to run, their mobility skills will come back up and they will catch you. > > As far as positioning as an AD Carry, you need to learn the ranges of the burst champions and engage champions on the enemy team. Zed, for example, can assassinate you from fairly far away. If the enemy team has a Zed, stay way the fuck back so that the man has to walk through your entire team to get to you. EVEN if this means you aren't attacking in this time. If Zed is dead, or his skills are down, you can walk further forward to attack. This rule holds true for any engage champion with CC or assassins. Additionally, a lot of people tell you to focus the squishies - don't. Focus whatever is in front of you. If you can safely focus a squishy, do so, but usually, your only option is to focus front liners. If you move forward to focus the squishies in the back, the front liners will eat you alive. > > Most of my advice is about ADC just because top lane champions are so different and so varied that I cannot give you blanket advice on it. Not to be rude Acid, but you're Bronze 4 too XD CSing is pretty important. For adc the thing you probably need to get used to is kiting, like acid says, knowing ranges and not getting killed. Your #1 job as an AD is to hit without being hit, and not being hit is especially important. For top lane, the most important things you're gonna need to know are your matchups, wave management, and when to be with your team or when to be splitting. There are pretty easy to find online tutorials for all of these (you'll probably need one for wave management, I know I did). Most important thing is to have fun, both of you! Good luck
"Ur wrong bc ur Bronze 4" *says same thing I said but with much less detail and helpfullness* lel
: If I don't see Urgot nerfs, ACTUAL URGOT NERFS, for patch 9.4, I'm going to lose my collective shit
"Lose my collective shit." Lol I love it. Also I agree. I think top lane is a shit fest right now, though. So many of the matchups are just unfun to play against, even the ones that aren't broken. Heimer, Teemo, Urgot, Pantheon, Jayce, Quinn, Tryn, Nasus (these two just because their splitpushing is annoying tbqh) Yorick, Kled, and way more. Its pretty much when a champion doesn't fit any other role, they are a top laner.
: Advice for bronze noob?
If someone says "learn to CS" tell them they're a skrub. The reason you struggle more with top and bot lane as opposed to mid lane, is the lanes are longer, and that makes wave management more impactful. I'd suggest finding some wave management guides on YouTube and trying to implement what you learn in your games. As far as team fighting, you should first make an effort to learn the important cooldowns of enemy champions. Knowing that Lissandra's ult is up or down should greatly influence how you play a teamfight, as well as knowing what it does. Attack move clicking is important on any ranged AD champion and should almost always be done when attacking enemy champions. I bound my attack move click to T instead of A (it feels more natural to me, try it). It helps to avoid misclicking and causing yourself to position badly, or waste time when you could be attacking. The basic premise of it is to move in between each of your shots to maintain optimal positioning in fights, or to avoid skill shots. The final note about attack move clicking is sometimes, if you time your flash well enough, you can put enough distance between you and an attacker so that you can turn on them. You should do this in cases where if you continue to run, their mobility skills will come back up and they will catch you. As far as positioning as an AD Carry, you need to learn the ranges of the burst champions and engage champions on the enemy team. Zed, for example, can assassinate you from fairly far away. If the enemy team has a Zed, stay way the fuck back so that the man has to walk through your entire team to get to you. EVEN if this means you aren't attacking in this time. If Zed is dead, or his skills are down, you can walk further forward to attack. This rule holds true for any engage champion with CC or assassins. Additionally, a lot of people tell you to focus the squishies - don't. Focus whatever is in front of you. If you can safely focus a squishy, do so, but usually, your only option is to focus front liners. If you move forward to focus the squishies in the back, the front liners will eat you alive. Most of my advice is about ADC just because top lane champions are so different and so varied that I cannot give you blanket advice on it.
Rioter Comments
: i guess junglers have to wait till season 10 to get any good changes?
Yeah, these changes did nothing but make powerfarming junglers rather weak, while making early ganking and tank junglers even more mandatory.
: That can only work if they make support non-excludable.
Why? Lol. You can already just choose two roles that aren't support. @_@ Autofill would still be a thing, as usual.
PikaPow3r (EUW)
: excluding lane
Upvoted. I would absolutely love this feature, as I enjoy every role but support.
: > [{quoted}](name=xAcidik,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-12T18:59:27.844+0000) > > They do this in Overwatch, and it actually makes it so that you can lose more games than you win, and still climb. This is, in my opinion, not good. If you are better than the average player in your ELO, you WILL win more games than you lose. Sometimes, games are out of your control, and it sucks but in the games where your play makes the difference, you will win more often. Otherwise, in games where your play makes no difference (one lane gets extremely fed and hard carries), you may int and still win, or dominate your lane and still lose. Someone made a post about this on Reddit once and it was much more cleanly explained than what I just did. > > Anyway, the individual performance LP gain in Overwatch caused tanks whose primary job was not to do damage or get kills to get more LP or lose less LP if they did a lot of damage or got a lot of kills. Because of this, it basically rewarded tanks for bad play, in a lot of circumstances, by giving or taking a favorable amount of LP (SR in Overwatch), and people are far too focused on their individual performance than doing what is important for the team. Are you able to find that Reddit post? I'd be interested in reading it. And I completely get the tank discussion. The idea though is that a good tank will still have a lot of assists, and cc score/damage taken are likely factors that contribute to winning games and therefore can be weighted accordingly. I'd have to do a more thorough dive to give specifics, but I really think this can be tuned for different roles appropriately. And again, I do not want to eliminate the team outcome factoring into your rank, I think the ability to win or lose as a team matters but it's very much an incomplete picture.
> [{quoted}](name=JeebusCripes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-02-12T19:04:00.198+0000) > > Are you able to find that Reddit post? I'd be interested in reading it. > > And I completely get the tank discussion. The idea though is that a good tank will still have a lot of assists, and cc score/damage taken are likely factors that contribute to winning games and therefore can be weighted accordingly. I'd have to do a more thorough dive to give specifics, but I really think this can be tuned for different roles appropriately. And again, I do not want to eliminate the team outcome factoring into your rank, I think the ability to win or lose as a team matters but it's very much an incomplete picture. After some searching, (I'm in class atm, so I couldn't search too hard) I'm not finding the original reddit post, but this video seems to address what I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjSr78OCj8g. I didn't watch the video (cuz class), but I disagree with the idea that you can quantify which games are unwinnable and which aren't, if only because of the fact that a high ELO smurf can win 90% of games all the way up to gold. I think the numbers change based on the player's skill, their champion choice, and even their role, but are ever present. The original reddit post I read didn't do this (and was about a completely different team game iirc), but the general idea is that sometimes, your team is playing so badly, or the enemy team is playing so well, that no matter how well you play, your individual play just isn't good enough to carry. Likewise, sometimes, the enemy team is so playing so badly, or your team so well, that no matter how badly you play, your individual play isn't enough to throw the game. A smaller amount of time, however, when the other lanes play relatively evenly, or one lane wins and the other loses by similar amounts, your play has a more significant impact on the game, and whether you play badly or well can really help determine the results of the game. I'm not sure if this video says some games are concretely unwinnable or unthrowable, but if it does, I also disagree with that notion, and think that this "rule" is more of a soft trend or patter, as opposed to a rule. And I'm not saying that your system is undoable. There probably is some perfect unabuseable algorithm that can be used to make the system work really well. I was just sharing my experience with similar systems, and my preference for the current system we have. Anyway, the entire reason I even mentioned what I did about the "30-40-30" rule was to say that it was your job, in the games where you can make a difference, to secure the win, and if you do this, you will climb, even if you have to eat the L on a game you played flawlessly sometimes, just as you can take a free W in a game where you made a lot of mistakes.
: Should we reconsider the point of ranked?
They do this in Overwatch, and it actually makes it so that you can lose more games than you win, and still climb. This is, in my opinion, not good. If you are better than the average player in your ELO, you WILL win more games than you lose. Sometimes, games are out of your control, and it sucks but in the games where your play makes the difference, you will win more often. Otherwise, in games where your play makes no difference (one lane gets extremely fed and hard carries), you may int and still win, or dominate your lane and still lose. Someone made a post about this on Reddit once and it was much more cleanly explained than what I just did. Anyway, the individual performance LP gain in Overwatch caused tanks whose primary job was not to do damage or get kills to get more LP or lose less LP if they did a lot of damage or got a lot of kills. Because of this, it basically rewarded tanks for bad play, in a lot of circumstances, by giving or taking a favorable amount of LP (SR in Overwatch), and people are far too focused on their individual performance than doing what is important for the team. This doesn't make it any less frustrating though when your outstanding individual performance is rewarded with a loss. I just think it is the superior option.
: > [{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cAzKEoUX,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-02-12T13:05:25.367+0000) > > Wrong. Yasuo, Yi, Fiora, Trynda, etc are "Skirmishers", which is different from "Assassins" like Akali, Kassadin, Ekko, Zed, etc. Both sub-classes are classified as Slyers. > > Fighters are "Divers" and "Juggernauts" as you can see from here: > > https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses No it's common knowledge that yasuo is an assassin and people who flame yasuo say we dont need an assassin mid we want a mage so idk wht u think lol
Its really not... He's a fighter. Like Tryn. No one has ever said what you just claimed to a Yasuo player, ever in my games, tho they may have said something about him being AD?
: Yasuo and the burst of a dedicated assassin.
He's not an assassin big dawg.
: WHY DOES EVERY ONE BAN YI?????
Because they don't like fighting him, mostly due to the fact that he is difficult to kite for the carries and we can't rely on our teams in low elo to peel.
Moody P (NA)
: It's unfair that you have to focus a melee carry or else he'll be a melee carry? You don't even need to kill him. Just keep him off your MVPs. Stun him and then move the fight. Counters his E too. The longer you keep him away the more damage he loses out on.
My mans dishing out the knowledge
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: What makes Nasus balanced?
He's a weak teamfighter. He's a strong duelist, of course, because he's balanced as a 1v1 splitpusher. In teamfights, there's so very little the poor guy can do.
ERJAK (NA)
: Most of the time when you end a sentence with an ellipsis, it's an indicator of being wrong. That remains true here. The problem isn't that Riot started 'tweaking to favor' professional play, the problem is that pros got better. The things that pro players were able to do when they had the freedom and resources to dedicate the talents of a dozen or more people towards decoding every aspect of the game for 12-14 hours per day, means that the skill level of professional league teams against even high level, voice chatting challenger teams, let alone shitty soloque pugs, is larger than it's ever been. You can't perfectly balance for player skill, it's impossible. Go watch a one trick of any champion you don't play and it'll seem OP as balls. Go play that same champ yourself and you'll be lucky if you get a positive KDA for the first few games. Pro vs Soloque is that same thing but on steroids.
You have absolutely no basis for your first statement lol. You're right about the rest. And this is why it bothers me, however. Pro play balance can not ever apply to soloqueue balance, or vice versa, because of the things you stated.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nevrankroaton,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T0EFkMPR,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2019-02-08T06:16:47.546+0000) > > Unpopular take but considering pro play is the best gameplay in the game, if a champion strength or playstyle is so strong/so impactful they have to nerf it again and again, the champion is the problem and not pro play. > It mean that at the best level, at the REAL one, the one where you play in team and understand the game, this champion wrap things around him. > > In fighting games, you don't cry because the best players in the world show how strong a top tiers/god tiers character is. You know that it mean this character is too strong and you take the nerf (ofc it cry there too) because your aim is to be able to play the game/character to its best potential. > > It is the same here. > I get what you guys mean but the same way low elo stomper need to be balanced, I want high elo/pro play top pick to be balanced too. Only that many times those nerfs are knee jerk reactions to a player performing well in the game. 'We found that X was too overbearing in X game, lets gut him completely' I honestly don't give a particular interest towards Pro Play, its just boring and without any meaningful reason for watching, but when I can't rely on a champ anymore because they had to make him unplayable during the LCS (and yes, we're not talking about balance, we're talking about removing them from the scene to make the picks change and keep the game 'fresh', it fucking happens) or to leave room to strategies that get more views, I'm going to eyeroll and feel annoyed. Because again, it may be the 'REAL' level (which is arguable but I don't want to get in that argument, I'm probably too biased), but my games are very real too and various people enjoyment is at stake.
It's a different environment. The level of coordination you have in pro in unobtainable in soloqueue. There is no "real" level. There is no coordination in fighting games because its a 1v1 thing, and therefore, there, and only there, does your example hold true.
Anidan (NA)
: This is the DotA2 approach. Something is OP in lower ranks? Then odds are great there's an answer, you just need to find it and apply it. If something is OP is pro play, odds are great that the people who are paid to play the game at its highest possible skill level have tried to find an answer and simply can't, so it should be toned down. The corollary to this is if something is never used in pro play, it should be buffed up to par. It's basically the MOBA's answer to Dark Souls philosophy of "git gud." Why should the balance team balance around people that can't even play the game properly, let alone optimally? They aren't really "balancing" at that point so much as making a safe environment for people slapping each other with rubber squeak-mallets and aimlessly plodding around the map acting like they're doing effective macro. Trust me, I should know, I was one of those players. The last thing in the world I want for a game that wants its competitive scene to be taken seriously is to listen to Bronze-Gold players. It sucks to come to terms with that, but it's true. I don't want Street Fighter balanced around my terrible playing, nor would I want a MOBA balanced around that, nor would I want a game's hardest difficulty settings toned down because I can't do them. You should have an incentive to get better, and knowing that something (almost) always has an answer when you play the game better or know more about the game is a huge incentive for a competitive community, that way while you complain (no one is saying you can't), you're thinking of answers to it instead of running to the balance team to fix it for you.
You're both leaving out the important fact that pro play is COORDINATED, with training, scrims, voice comms, pre-designed champ pools, pre-designed team comps, and a whole host of things that will never ever be available to soloqueue. It's a different environment, and balance for one cannot possibly make good balance for another.
: Taking the "less is more" approach to popular/OP champions in pro matches. I like it. I could also see the marketing team hyping a reappearance of the previously banned champions prior to matches. Feels like a win-win. Some other questions come to mind: 1. Would champions be banned all season or rotated throughout? 2. If you ban champions based on pro success rate, does this place well performing players at a disadvantage? Would this impact making a lasting career as a pro? 3. If you own a team, how do you train/set the roster around banned champions? Thinking about the above, it feels like you'd need to release the ban schedule to teams prior to the season to avoid a feeling of un-banning certain champions just to benefit team A or B etc.
I'd think the bans would be revisited per patch, or per 2-3 patches, and the banning of champions would be decided by a committee with a representative from each team. Doing this, I don't think your third question would need an answer, and it answers your first two.
: what it means is that they will have to balance around one or the other and the unfortunate truth is that when a game is balanced solely around coordinated team-play or professionals, you end up with balance decisions that are crazy because they do not apply to the general player let's take Dr Mundo as an example. He will very rarely if EVER be considered for professional play because he offers no hard crowd control and no definite niche. All he offers is durability and harass damage. He is one of my favorite champions because he can take advantage of people's habits and is LESS item reliant than other champions in his general positions, but what he provides to an individual and what he provides to a team are completely different
This is the unfortunate truth. I just wish there were a neutral way to deal with it.
: They don’t though. Akali is broken as fuck and they refuse to nerf it. Same with a few others. They try and keep the new and updated champs op so people spend money
: the worste part about it is that they do these nerfs as a fucking knee jerk reaction. they see one game where a champ is picked out of meta and abused and they instantly go to the nerf board. Riot obviously forces a meta that they like and fuck any kind of alteration to that meta. this is why the only deviation we see is mage bot lanes
A forced meta is fine imo. The draft of a top/mid/jg/supp/bot is a forced meta. I definitely prefer that over blind pick.
: I'm just finally happy Akali is out of my damn games Personally very happy with last patch even though I like playing SIon. Need {{champion:127}} fixes now
Why? It was a free win. It was a 43% winrate champion.
: If something is OP in pro play then why don't the 5-man teams of coordinated pro players just...BAN IT?
Meh, I don't know if that's the solution or not, but I understand the struggle.
ExxonV (NA)
: Your complaint is confusing. Akali wasn't nerfed because of pro play, shen is still a good solo Q champ though abit out of meta, ryze and azir were nerfed because pro play but they were never meant to have high winrates on low skill players regardless. Panth and shaco are weird examples to give of "outdated" champs, I see them all the time and they fit pretty decently into current playstyle. If you were to say something about tanks/ornn I might have believe you were going anywhere with this but reading this I just get a feeling you don't really know what you're talking about or are upset about. No game is balanced around players who don't know how to play it, that is not how anything should work.
You said I didn't make sense but literally no one else seems to have that problem, even the people do don't agree with me. Try giving it a second read? And Akali uh. Was... nerfed because of pro play... lol.
: You can balance for pro play AND casual play however this does mean some champs have to be dumpstered. For instance: Aatrorx gets nerfed for pro play, is worse all around, however; If Nasus gets nerfed for casual play, since he isn't picked for pro play much anyway (no damage to that, buffing Nasus hoping he'll be in pro games when he won't helps nobody).. The ideal Riot sometimes Tries for is making a champ "weaker in low Elo, stronger in high"- or the other way around, however it *rarely* works, bit they should keep trying and learn what works, since that kind of balancing is ideal.
I mean, I'm fine with a champion being stronger or weaker in one ELO compared to another. It's when one of these levels is completely ignored that it bothers me.
ODiiiiiN (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=xAcidik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T0EFkMPR,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2019-02-08T04:07:16.466+0000) > > That's... that's not the case though. While I do agree with your entire first paragraph, I wouldn't be annoyed by a champion being "unbalanced" if it only required another player playing just as well to keep the champion in check. That goes against everything I am saying. The better player should *win*, at least if it's not a bad champion matchup. But for a champion to be objectively stronger? There is almost no counterplay to Essence Flare/Spear Jax. Oh I see, youre talking about the items. But yea I mean that's the main problem with league, they have all these champs that are overpowered and dont take "the better player" to win. I honestly think they leave them in bc they think they need to have "easy" champs to appeal to a certain group of people that arent that skilled. They dont want them to get frustrated with the game and quit. I mean look at Yi... That champ has been busted since way before I started playing two years ago. Essence Flare has been removed by the way. I just read on The Rift Herald; > Patch 9.3 > Essence Reaver > Changes > > TOTAL COST :: 3000 gold >>> 3200 gold > BUILD PATH :: B.F. Sword + Caulfield’s Warhammer + Sapphire Crystal + 250 gold >>> Pickaxe + Caulfield’s Warhammer + Cloak of Agility + 425 gold > ATTACK DAMAGE :: 75 >>> 60 > COOLDOWN REDUCTION :: 20% > CRITICAL STRIKE CHANCE :: 25% > MANA :: No longer grants 300 mana > MANA REFUND :: Basic attacks refund ||| 1% >>> 1.5% missing mana > **REMOVED — ESSENCE FLARE :: Your next basic attack after casting your ultimate no longer grants Essence Flare for 6 seconds, granting 50% attack speed and 20% basic ability cooldown refund on basic attack** > > These changes mean that Essence Reaver is likely going back to being a very niche item. Champions like Ashe and Xayah may still use it thanks to it granting slightly more mana on basic attacks, but it seems like most other champions will miss the addition of Essence Flare. Also, it probably won’t be useful on champions like Riven anymore either without the passive. But, if you’re a mana hungry ADC who doesn’t quite use enough abilities to get a Manamune, this might still be a good way to go.
Yeah now the same thing is on Spear of Shojin. And I think that there are plenty of ways to make a simple champion that don't require the simple champion to outscale everything and stat-check the enemy team into infinity, despite being down 2k gold. But yeah, that's probably what their thought process is.
: Yeah well, they nerfed Yorick for low elo and you guys still don’t stop complaining about that so.
Lol imagine getting snarky at a guy for a group of people complaining about something, despite this guy having never complained about said thing. Besides, Yorick was strong in all ELOs.
: "very few instances where its good". Then you name a few of the instances where it wouldn't be bad. And then say I'm wrong. Lol.
Except the instances I named are present at least a third of the time. lel
: I support main and usually if the ADC recalls, I last hit the very last hit if I can while also asking if he wants the lane pushed or not (usually if the ADC recalls he should want the lane to freeze, but still ask just in case). But yeah, the safest option is to try your best and attack only when the minion is going to be very dead.
Remember, when in laning phase, the support is the boss. Most of the time, the support is the better champion and has a stronger impact on the lane. They choose where the wave is positioned, when to go for trades, when to look for engages, and usually, a kill is made almost entirely by the support if it happens in lane.
20022012 (EUNE)
: The fact that by playing an assassin you're already allowing the enemy team to blow you up, yet it is very viable because of the way its played.
Its called freezing the wave. You tank the wave for a second or two, make sure it doesnt crash to tower. It helps you preserve the wave, making more minions survive for your ADC, making it difficult for the enemy ADC to CS, and forcing the enemy ADC to be pushed up to expose them to a gank. It's the best wave management tool out there, and if you can do it, you should ALWAYS do it.
: Here's the thing though: there are VERY FEW instances where the support should just be sitting in lane and last hitting while the ADC is in base. Usually the support should recall together - making them both spike and reset together and prepped for another all in. Or holding the wave out of tower while your adc comes back, and then you reset once again both reseting at similar times. Or you can look to place deep vision in their jungle, or roam to another lane. It is almost a complete waste of time to sit there and absorb 2 last hits over the course of 20 seconds instead of warding/reseting/roaming.
This is a horrible generalization I think. What if you just got your ADC a kill, but they got chunked? You're still relatively healthy, with no significant item to buy, and backing would freeze the lane in the enemy's favor? Shove the lane. What if the lane is frozen in your lane? Maintain the freeze, get the few CS.
: Can a support CS when the ADC recalls?
> [{quoted}](name=K1ng3hitt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6N3xFFjE,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-03T17:10:09.941+0000) > > Typically, I don't receive any hate when I grab some CS when the ADC recalls, or when the lane is pushed to our tower. But then sometimes I will have an ADC that freaks the hell out when I last hit a couple minions that were about to die to the wave or tower anyways. When asked why, I usually get ignored or simply told that Sup doesn't get CS... I am fairly new, and would like to know if I am actually doing anything wrong here. Keep in mind we are talking about maybe 4-5 CS by the time the ADC gets back to lane. Like I said, these are just last hits. If these CS are unavailable to the ADC for any reason, take them. If you don't you're just being gold inefficient. Just don't push the wave. You should only auto each minion once, and that should be the last hit.
ODiiiiiN (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=xAcidik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T0EFkMPR,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-07T13:58:01.670+0000) > > It does. Balancing EXCLUSIVELY around pro play is a horrible design. I understand that certain champions are just too strong in pro play, but how does that justify making the champion unplayable in solo queue? WE are the consumers, WE keep this game running. If WE weren't interested in this game, fucking pro play wouldn't save it. Balancing for pro play is important, but not EXCLUSIVELY, which is Riot's habit. > > Akali, Azir, Ryze, Shen. These are all rather popular champions that can no longer feasibly exist in solo queue. Meanwhile, in solo queue, since it isn't a problem in pro play, we have Spear of Shojin Jax and Fiora, completely outdated champions like Pantheon and Shaco... I mean cmon. I agree that you shouldn't balance for low ELO, but at least balance for solo queue. > > Find a different solution for pro play. I don't care what it is. Straight out ban champions in pro play, for all I care. It DOESN'T EVEN BEGIN TO IMPACT THE BAST MAJORITY OF PLAYERS. Although I agree WE are the consumers and Pro Play wouldnt mean shit if the game didnt have 1 million low elo players everyday. You also have to understand, there's no other scene where they can have an accurate look at their champions. They cant go to Gold Tier and watch 4 actual decent players and 6 other dudes that are dicking around. They need to look at a match where 10/10 are legit good players and know that every champion being played is being pushed to their best capabilities. There's just no way to do that in any other division, they have to use Pro/Master tiers. I know it sucks though, because thats how u get your crazy Akalis, Jaxs and Irelias. Some dude who's actually decent comes along and carries the whole game for his trashy team because he can push that champion to the max. But the reality is if everyone was playing as decent as he was, he wouldnt be dominating. Now that's not to say that there are some champions that are just broken. Even in Pro Play u see Akali, Irelia and Jax being banned. So sometimes even their games tell you something about champs that everyone is already complaining about.
That's... that's not the case though. While I do agree with your entire first paragraph, I wouldn't be annoyed by a champion being "unbalanced" if it only required another player playing just as well to keep the champion in check. That goes against everything I am saying. The better player should *win*, at least if it's not a bad champion matchup. But for a champion to be objectively stronger? There is almost no counterplay to Essence Flare/Spear Jax.
: I just want them to go all the way in one direction for balance's sake. Either go full pro balance or full casual balance. High skill ceiling champions get trashed by nerfs and become unplayable in soloq but balanced in 5v5s. However, there's still casual additions like RNG dragons, zoe W, crit, plants, and trinkets. Both players regularly feel shafted when balance tries to swing both ways.
I think that there's a way to balance for all levels of play. But honestly, if I'm wrong, what you're saying would be better than what we have right now.
Shynkle (NA)
: "Hasn't received a nerf" you know Spear came out literally yesterday, right?
It's Essence Flare dawg. Same exact thing, horrible concept.
Lovelle (NA)
: {{champion:48}} I don't even play ranked, which sucks when I see my champ get gutted.
You and me both my friend. Though, I don't actually play any of the champs I listed, save for Akali, but only when I really really need an AP. (Like, full AD, support and everything).
: im talking about the heal mostly
Even Akali mains desparately wanted that shroud nerf (not hiding from turrets). It made her unplayable because of her ban rate. As far as her healing, that and some the interactions introduced from the last patch she was in. It made it so it took her longer to restealth, left a shadow behind where you could see her, and doesn't let you cancel targetable attacks the same way entering a bush without vision would. The last thing is terrible, and as for the other two, most people say one or the other would have been enough If they just made her Q heal not scale as hard (so she can survive in lane) it would have been a good nerf. With what they did, however, you cannot use Akali's shroud defensively. ONLY offensively. Which is what they wanted to AVOID.
: this does not happen in other mobas :3
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but if you are not, then good. It shouldn't happen.
Heraimish (EUW)
: Some champions are balanced around low ranked solo queue. Master Yi {{champion:11}} for example. He isn't played in pro and he's bad in high ranks. If Riot would buff him to be viable in pro play or high ranks, he would be completely broken in iron/bronze/silver. Some champions are designed completely around pro play and are not viable in solo queue, while some champions are solo queue monsters while being useless in a pro game.
Yi required (though he wasn't the only champ that caused this) an entire systematic change in the game, specifically because of pro play. Funnel opop.
: Aatrox has literally been sitting at a 45-47% win rate for 2 months and he still gets gutted to the point where he's not even viable in the jungle, a far better role for him to play against. He got 3 nerfs in a row for no other reason than "he was strong in comp.", and now he's literally one of the worst solo queue champions sitting between Ornn and Ryze. But they made him a 100$ prestige skin, so I guess they made their money's worth for the now worthless champion.
Aatrox wasn't balanced for the jungle, was he? He always seemed strong in lane to me, but not blind pickable. I'm not familiar with his winrate numbers or anything, so I could be wrong.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: There needs to be a line drawn when it comes to skill cap. If skilled Azir can do everything that every mage in game combined can do then something is wrong. Same with Kalista. Skill cap shouldn't add more power to kits. And where is kit work? Ask Riot. They decided that until the work is started these kits are going to be unviable. And that's good decision if they don't have resources or ideas to fix them right now.
I don't entirely agree with you. I think that a champion with a high skill floor should be allowed to have a higher skill cap. In other words, if a champion is difficult to master, it should be rewarding to do so. Not obnoxiously so, in my opinion, but rewarding.
dnsup (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=xAcidik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T0EFkMPR,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-02-07T20:08:30.847+0000) > > I know, and it's a horrible design. The level of effort they're putting into their balance changes is unacceptable. The best part is that in that past, they haven't even really had to invest much into the e-sports scene in order to gain from it. (When it comes to e-sports, the people who risk the most, and who shoulder the largest real cost, are the players--and not just the ones who actually "make it" for a minute, either).
Oh, of course not. When a game as popular as League announces an e-sports League, fans eat it up, plain and simple. They didn't have to advertise.
: They could not overload every goddamn kit they touch
: it's not only that, they can create an entire separate balance for champions in pro play. they don't have to have the exact same number both in Pro play, and the 99% rest of the playerbase
I don't know if I'd agree with this. I wouldn't want pro players playing entirely different versions of champions than me.
: that problem cant be solved unless they do one of the following : 1- stop balancing around pros because lower tiers 2- start gutting whats good in noob tiers because noobs cant handle it which i disagree with imo because that mean killing every simple to play champion like jax/garen ect ect , (dont get me wrong im in noob brackets as will) 3- start reworking lower brackets champions so they are more rewording in the right hand and less rewording in the bad hands. but that kinda make them like a lot of lately reworked champions , they become way rewording in higher brackets and get nerfed to unplayable like how attarox kinda did. i dont mind 3 tho as long as the champion is good if mastered
The first option isn't an option. It's not what I want, or, I think, what anyone wants. For your second option, I don't think anything is strong in noob tiers just because they're simple. Nor do I think Garen is simple. His mechanics are braindead easy, but he has no outplay potential. So, to play Garen well, you have to optimize your build differently in every single game. This makes his itemization difficult, while his mechanics are easy. Meanwhile some of the "harder" champions in League, like Draven, are hard mechanically, but their itemization never changes. "Braindead" in that aspect. I do, however, think this is closer to what they need to do than your other suggestion. They need to nerf what stomps in low tiers because it stomps. If the only reason someone gets to a certain ELO is the champion they play, and it's not because they are just exceptionally good at that champion, that champion needs a nerf. In other words, if you're climbing because "noobs can't handle your champion" then no matter what the context, that champion needs changed. For the third... I don't think full reworks are required. Mini ones, like the Ezreal one, maybe.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: It's not atrocious if said champion brings more problems than positives. Kalista is a great example of that. She's cool to play or whatever, but she's totally miserable to play against. Champions aren't left in gutter without any good reason yknow guys. Most of gutted champions require big kit work, not a number changes. Champions like Azir, Kalista, Ryze are like that.
How long have these champions been in this position? Ryze is an acceptable casualty, in my opinion, because of the coordination he requires. It's not something the soloqueue environment can pull off. But Azir? Kalista? Nerfed just because talented players make good use of them? They're talented players! Of course! I understand the need to nerf them, but this nerf shouldn't come in the form that it did. Like you said, they require big kit work. WHERE is this kit work?
: It's always sucked but it's what they've always done. There are really only two things that would get Riot to reevaluate their balancing philosophy (which, to begin with, is pretty fcked, let's be real): either the pro league viewership or the main bulk of the player place need to evaporate and diminish. Unless Riot gets hit in the purse, they won't change anything. If modern video gaming has taught us anything, it's that these companies really only listen to money. They don't care if the playerbase is miserable, hates many aspects of their game, or if their staff is generally incompetent. As long as they can get sponsors like State Farm to funnel money into their BS they're going to keep making BS.
I know, and it's a horrible design. The level of effort they're putting into their balance changes is unacceptable.
: Akali wasd nerfed for casual play. As her ban rate was through the roof so at the very least you can pick her now
If the only change that they made to Akali was remove her true stealth, rather than the other changes they made to her shroud, and did not remove her sustain, she would likely not be banned, and Akali mains would still be happy to play the champions. If this were not the case, they could explore further options. What Riot did instead was nerf everything EXCEPT what people complained about, then nerfed what people complained about anyway.
BigFBear (EUW)
: Ok ignore my chess example then. I am still right with the rest.
Except you're not. I'm not suggesting the game be balanced around low elo, or just solo queue in general, exclusively. (I edited my OP earlier to more accurately portray that). What I want is balance for ALL levels of play. No champion should be outright OP at one level and useless at another (unless you're smurfing or something), and no champion should be nerfed for one level while completely disregarding its impact on another level. The only time I can think of that this should ever be acceptable is with champions that REQUIRE coordination to play well, notably, Kench, Shen, and Ryze. However, champions like Azir and Akali should NOT suffer from this because the problem with their balance is not the same. And the thing about getting better at the game or whatnot... What even are you talking about? The points I put forward are shared by Challenger players and Iron players alike. If your reponse to a Challenger player about a balance change that is bad for the game is "get better", I don't know how to even explain the flaw in that. It's not about pro players being better. It's about a different environment entirely. They practice team comps. They have voice comms. The know each other, understand their habits, they have sophisticated game plans. These are all things that are completely and uncontrollably unavailable to soloqueue players. So saying "git gudd and these champs won't be a problem" is a completely invalid and irrelevant argument to make, I would pose.
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xAcidik

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