I didn't give that advice, bud. I said that if someone says "learn to CS" that he should tell them they're a skrub. At no point did I say "do not farm." My statement was addressing the tendency for people to say that CSing is a free way out of Bronze. And I'm Bronze 4 on one role, I haven't even done placements for the others, and the one role I am Bronze 4 on is also my least played role.

"Ur wrong bc ur Bronze 4" *says same thing I said but with much less detail and helpfullness* lel

"Lose my collective shit." Lol I love it. Also I agree. I think top lane is a shit fest right now, though. So many of the matchups are just unfun to play against, even the ones that aren't broken. Heimer, Teemo, Urgot, Pantheon, Jayce, Quinn, Tryn, Nasus (these two just because their splitpushing is annoying tbqh) Yorick, Kled, and way more. Its pretty much when a champion doesn't fit any other role, they are a top laner.

If someone says "learn to CS" tell them they're a skrub. The reason you struggle more with top and bot lane as opposed to mid lane, is the lanes are longer, and that makes wave management more impactful. I'd suggest finding some wave management guides on YouTube and trying to implement what you learn in your games. As far as team fighting, you should first make an effort to learn the important cooldowns of enemy champions. Knowing that Lissandra's ult is up or down should greatly influence how you play a teamfight, as well as knowing what it does. Attack move clicking is important on any ranged AD champion and should almost always be done when attacking enemy champions. I bound my attack move click to T instead of A (it feels more natural to me, try it). It helps to avoid misclicking and causing yourself to position badly, or waste time when you could be attacking. The basic premise of it is to move in between each of your shots to maintain optimal positioning in fights, or to avoid skill shots. The final note about attack move clicking is sometimes, if you time your flash well enough, you can put enough distance between you and an attacker so that you can turn on them. You should do this in cases where if you continue to run, their mobility skills will come back up and they will catch you. As far as positioning as an AD Carry, you need to learn the ranges of the burst champions and engage champions on the enemy team. Zed, for example, can assassinate you from fairly far away. If the enemy team has a Zed, stay way the fuck back so that the man has to walk through your entire team to get to you. EVEN if this means you aren't attacking in this time. If Zed is dead, or his skills are down, you can walk further forward to attack. This rule holds true for any engage champion with CC or assassins. Additionally, a lot of people tell you to focus the squishies - don't. Focus whatever is in front of you. If you can safely focus a squishy, do so, but usually, your only option is to focus front liners. If you move forward to focus the squishies in the back, the front liners will eat you alive. Most of my advice is about ADC just because top lane champions are so different and so varied that I cannot give you blanket advice on it.

Yeah, these changes did nothing but make powerfarming junglers rather weak, while making early ganking and tank junglers even more mandatory.

Why? Lol. You can already just choose two roles that aren't support. @_@ Autofill would still be a thing, as usual.

Upvoted. I would absolutely love this feature, as I enjoy every role but support.

> [{quoted}](name=JeebusCripes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hA6PLObP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-02-12T19:04:00.198+0000) > > Are you able to find that Reddit post? I'd be interested in reading it. > > And I completely get the tank discussion. The idea though is that a good tank will still have a lot of assists, and cc score/damage taken are likely factors that contribute to winning games and therefore can be weighted accordingly. I'd have to do a more thorough dive to give specifics, but I really think this can be tuned for different roles appropriately. And again, I do not want to eliminate the team outcome factoring into your rank, I think the ability to win or lose as a team matters but it's very much an incomplete picture. After some searching, (I'm in class atm, so I couldn't search too hard) I'm not finding the original reddit post, but this video seems to address what I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjSr78OCj8g. I didn't watch the video (cuz class), but I disagree with the idea that you can quantify which games are unwinnable and which aren't, if only because of the fact that a high ELO smurf can win 90% of games all the way up to gold. I think the numbers change based on the player's skill, their champion choice, and even their role, but are ever present. The original reddit post I read didn't do this (and was about a completely different team game iirc), but the general idea is that sometimes, your team is playing so badly, or the enemy team is playing so well, that no matter how well you play, your individual play just isn't good enough to carry. Likewise, sometimes, the enemy team is so playing so badly, or your team so well, that no matter how badly you play, your individual play isn't enough to throw the game. A smaller amount of time, however, when the other lanes play relatively evenly, or one lane wins and the other loses by similar amounts, your play has a more significant impact on the game, and whether you play badly or well can really help determine the results of the game. I'm not sure if this video says some games are concretely unwinnable or unthrowable, but if it does, I also disagree with that notion, and think that this "rule" is more of a soft trend or patter, as opposed to a rule. And I'm not saying that your system is undoable. There probably is some perfect unabuseable algorithm that can be used to make the system work really well. I was just sharing my experience with similar systems, and my preference for the current system we have. Anyway, the entire reason I even mentioned what I did about the "30-40-30" rule was to say that it was your job, in the games where you can make a difference, to secure the win, and if you do this, you will climb, even if you have to eat the L on a game you played flawlessly sometimes, just as you can take a free W in a game where you made a lot of mistakes.

They do this in Overwatch, and it actually makes it so that you can lose more games than you win, and still climb. This is, in my opinion, not good. If you are better than the average player in your ELO, you WILL win more games than you lose. Sometimes, games are out of your control, and it sucks but in the games where your play makes the difference, you will win more often. Otherwise, in games where your play makes no difference (one lane gets extremely fed and hard carries), you may int and still win, or dominate your lane and still lose. Someone made a post about this on Reddit once and it was much more cleanly explained than what I just did. Anyway, the individual performance LP gain in Overwatch caused tanks whose primary job was not to do damage or get kills to get more LP or lose less LP if they did a lot of damage or got a lot of kills. Because of this, it basically rewarded tanks for bad play, in a lot of circumstances, by giving or taking a favorable amount of LP (SR in Overwatch), and people are far too focused on their individual performance than doing what is important for the team. This doesn't make it any less frustrating though when your outstanding individual performance is rewarded with a loss. I just think it is the superior option.

Its really not... He's a fighter. Like Tryn. No one has ever said what you just claimed to a Yasuo player, ever in my games, tho they may have said something about him being AD?

He's not an assassin big dawg.

Because they don't like fighting him, mostly due to the fact that he is difficult to kite for the carries and we can't rely on our teams in low elo to peel.

My mans dishing out the knowledge

He's a weak teamfighter. He's a strong duelist, of course, because he's balanced as a 1v1 splitpusher. In teamfights, there's so very little the poor guy can do.

You have absolutely no basis for your first statement lol. You're right about the rest. And this is why it bothers me, however. Pro play balance can not ever apply to soloqueue balance, or vice versa, because of the things you stated.

It's a different environment. The level of coordination you have in pro in unobtainable in soloqueue. There is no "real" level. There is no coordination in fighting games because its a 1v1 thing, and therefore, there, and only there, does your example hold true.

You're both leaving out the important fact that pro play is COORDINATED, with training, scrims, voice comms, pre-designed champ pools, pre-designed team comps, and a whole host of things that will never ever be available to soloqueue. It's a different environment, and balance for one cannot possibly make good balance for another.

I'd think the bans would be revisited per patch, or per 2-3 patches, and the banning of champions would be decided by a committee with a representative from each team. Doing this, I don't think your third question would need an answer, and it answers your first two.

This is the unfortunate truth. I just wish there were a neutral way to deal with it.

wym? They gutted Akali.

A forced meta is fine imo. The draft of a top/mid/jg/supp/bot is a forced meta. I definitely prefer that over blind pick.

Why? It was a free win. It was a 43% winrate champion.

Meh, I don't know if that's the solution or not, but I understand the struggle.

You said I didn't make sense but literally no one else seems to have that problem, even the people do don't agree with me. Try giving it a second read? And Akali uh. Was... nerfed because of pro play... lol.

I mean, I'm fine with a champion being stronger or weaker in one ELO compared to another. It's when one of these levels is completely ignored that it bothers me.

Yeah now the same thing is on Spear of Shojin. And I think that there are plenty of ways to make a simple champion that don't require the simple champion to outscale everything and stat-check the enemy team into infinity, despite being down 2k gold. But yeah, that's probably what their thought process is.

Lol imagine getting snarky at a guy for a group of people complaining about something, despite this guy having never complained about said thing. Besides, Yorick was strong in all ELOs.

Except the instances I named are present at least a third of the time. lel

Remember, when in laning phase, the support is the boss. Most of the time, the support is the better champion and has a stronger impact on the lane. They choose where the wave is positioned, when to go for trades, when to look for engages, and usually, a kill is made almost entirely by the support if it happens in lane.

Its called freezing the wave. You tank the wave for a second or two, make sure it doesnt crash to tower. It helps you preserve the wave, making more minions survive for your ADC, making it difficult for the enemy ADC to CS, and forcing the enemy ADC to be pushed up to expose them to a gank. It's the best wave management tool out there, and if you can do it, you should ALWAYS do it.

This is a horrible generalization I think. What if you just got your ADC a kill, but they got chunked? You're still relatively healthy, with no significant item to buy, and backing would freeze the lane in the enemy's favor? Shove the lane. What if the lane is frozen in your lane? Maintain the freeze, get the few CS.

> [{quoted}](name=K1ng3hitt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6N3xFFjE,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-03T17:10:09.941+0000) > > Typically, I don't receive any hate when I grab some CS when the ADC recalls, or when the lane is pushed to our tower. But then sometimes I will have an ADC that freaks the hell out when I last hit a couple minions that were about to die to the wave or tower anyways. When asked why, I usually get ignored or simply told that Sup doesn't get CS... I am fairly new, and would like to know if I am actually doing anything wrong here. Keep in mind we are talking about maybe 4-5 CS by the time the ADC gets back to lane. Like I said, these are just last hits. If these CS are unavailable to the ADC for any reason, take them. If you don't you're just being gold inefficient. Just don't push the wave. You should only auto each minion once, and that should be the last hit.

That's... that's not the case though. While I do agree with your entire first paragraph, I wouldn't be annoyed by a champion being "unbalanced" if it only required another player playing just as well to keep the champion in check. That goes against everything I am saying. The better player should *win*, at least if it's not a bad champion matchup. But for a champion to be objectively stronger? There is almost no counterplay to Essence Flare/Spear Jax.

I think that there's a way to balance for all levels of play. But honestly, if I'm wrong, what you're saying would be better than what we have right now.

It's Essence Flare dawg. Same exact thing, horrible concept.

You and me both my friend. Though, I don't actually play any of the champs I listed, save for Akali, but only when I really really need an AP. (Like, full AD, support and everything).

Even Akali mains desparately wanted that shroud nerf (not hiding from turrets). It made her unplayable because of her ban rate. As far as her healing, that and some the interactions introduced from the last patch she was in. It made it so it took her longer to restealth, left a shadow behind where you could see her, and doesn't let you cancel targetable attacks the same way entering a bush without vision would. The last thing is terrible, and as for the other two, most people say one or the other would have been enough If they just made her Q heal not scale as hard (so she can survive in lane) it would have been a good nerf. With what they did, however, you cannot use Akali's shroud defensively. ONLY offensively. Which is what they wanted to AVOID.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but if you are not, then good. It shouldn't happen.

Yi required (though he wasn't the only champ that caused this) an entire systematic change in the game, specifically because of pro play. Funnel opop.

Aatrox wasn't balanced for the jungle, was he? He always seemed strong in lane to me, but not blind pickable. I'm not familiar with his winrate numbers or anything, so I could be wrong.

I don't entirely agree with you. I think that a champion with a high skill floor should be allowed to have a higher skill cap. In other words, if a champion is difficult to master, it should be rewarding to do so. Not obnoxiously so, in my opinion, but rewarding.

Oh, of course not. When a game as popular as League announces an e-sports League, fans eat it up, plain and simple. They didn't have to advertise.

There's an option.

I don't know if I'd agree with this. I wouldn't want pro players playing entirely different versions of champions than me.

The first option isn't an option. It's not what I want, or, I think, what anyone wants. For your second option, I don't think anything is strong in noob tiers just because they're simple. Nor do I think Garen is simple. His mechanics are braindead easy, but he has no outplay potential. So, to play Garen well, you have to optimize your build differently in every single game. This makes his itemization difficult, while his mechanics are easy. Meanwhile some of the "harder" champions in League, like Draven, are hard mechanically, but their itemization never changes. "Braindead" in that aspect. I do, however, think this is closer to what they need to do than your other suggestion. They need to nerf what stomps in low tiers because it stomps. If the only reason someone gets to a certain ELO is the champion they play, and it's not because they are just exceptionally good at that champion, that champion needs a nerf. In other words, if you're climbing because "noobs can't handle your champion" then no matter what the context, that champion needs changed. For the third... I don't think full reworks are required. Mini ones, like the Ezreal one, maybe.

How long have these champions been in this position? Ryze is an acceptable casualty, in my opinion, because of the coordination he requires. It's not something the soloqueue environment can pull off. But Azir? Kalista? Nerfed just because talented players make good use of them? They're talented players! Of course! I understand the need to nerf them, but this nerf shouldn't come in the form that it did. Like you said, they require big kit work. WHERE is this kit work?

I know, and it's a horrible design. The level of effort they're putting into their balance changes is unacceptable.

If the only change that they made to Akali was remove her true stealth, rather than the other changes they made to her shroud, and did not remove her sustain, she would likely not be banned, and Akali mains would still be happy to play the champions. If this were not the case, they could explore further options. What Riot did instead was nerf everything EXCEPT what people complained about, then nerfed what people complained about anyway.

Except you're not. I'm not suggesting the game be balanced around low elo, or just solo queue in general, exclusively. (I edited my OP earlier to more accurately portray that). What I want is balance for ALL levels of play. No champion should be outright OP at one level and useless at another (unless you're smurfing or something), and no champion should be nerfed for one level while completely disregarding its impact on another level. The only time I can think of that this should ever be acceptable is with champions that REQUIRE coordination to play well, notably, Kench, Shen, and Ryze. However, champions like Azir and Akali should NOT suffer from this because the problem with their balance is not the same. And the thing about getting better at the game or whatnot... What even are you talking about? The points I put forward are shared by Challenger players and Iron players alike. If your reponse to a Challenger player about a balance change that is bad for the game is "get better", I don't know how to even explain the flaw in that. It's not about pro players being better. It's about a different environment entirely. They practice team comps. They have voice comms. The know each other, understand their habits, they have sophisticated game plans. These are all things that are completely and uncontrollably unavailable to soloqueue players. So saying "git gudd and these champs won't be a problem" is a completely invalid and irrelevant argument to make, I would pose.