Rioter Comments
: adcs are supposed to be protected by their supports so why would they need so much self sustain? and they already have the only revive in the game itemization. in the stopwatch meta they actually have more protection through itemization than they have ever had before and paired with such easily accesable lifesteal its getting sad
Because not every support is capable of defending their adc, either because of their kit or because the player is bad. Why the hell would somebody want to play a position where them being able to play is decided by how good their support is. Nobody would want to play the role that's entirely dependent on how competent their support is. Nobody wants to play a role that becomes a grey screen simulator because the support is autofilled or just not playing a good healing champion.
: Riot won't fix bot lane come mid-season
Calling it now, they're actually going to nerf adcs, but not gut them, so you still won't be happy.
Terozu (NA)
: What do you mean by a safe lane?
When i say safe lane, i didn't actually know it was a dota term. I mean a lane that is pushed near toy our turret or against the turret, in a situation where it likely won't get ganked(maybe a few of the enemy is dead, or in another lane.
: Why are you lone? Is your support afk?
No, but it's probably not a good idea to have 2 people in the same spot to just simply farm a lane. That means that only 3 of your teammates are trying to influence the rest of the map.
: "If I am an adc and you are a jungle taking safe lane cs" you said, "safe lane" ... BEGONE THOT YOUR DOTA 2 TERMINOLOGY IS NOT ALLOWED IN THIS HOLY SANCTUM OF OUR LORD {{champion:17}}
thats from Dota? thought it just meant a lane that isn't super pushed adn can be farmed safely
Ratpie (NA)
: I love when I go in and gank or protect a turret as JG, and I last hit a few minions that the tower was going to kill anyway and the ADC gets all snippy. Happens when you do the same thing as support. ADC, if you are not there, I am going to last hit any minions you are going to miss when you are out of lane.
That's fine. This is for junglers who when given the choice to farm a safe lane or jungle, they choose the lane.
: Probably Unpopular opinion; I think Rageblade adds nothing but problems to the game
Phantom proc has always been a problem. It has been ever since it first came into the game as sated devourer.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Jøkèr (NA)
: I think out of all the cc available in the game, the one...
The problem with silence is that it's deceptive compared to most cc. Other cc's you'll usually notice it immediately. You'll "feel" the cc as soon as it's on you. Silence however, is much more subtle. You won't really feel it, until the moment you need a spell. It almost always catches you offguard.
: ADCs are being used to dominate Jungle by smurfers
Whoo whee, that 47.25% winrate with .85% pickrate twitch jungle! gotta nerf that. way too strong. I'll give you kai'sa, but thats probably because they buffed everything about her kit within one patch of her release. This tends to happen with new champions.
: > [{quoted}](name=xToxicOsirisx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AguIPObP,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-02T02:03:05.956+0000) > > Go ahead. Keep thinking that damage is absolutely the end all everything that matters about a champion. Not even burst damage. Only sustained damage. Want to know what happens when ap dps is strong? We get Ryze. We get Azir. You know, those champions that warp high ranked play and need to be nerfed/reworked every few months? > > If you seriously think that a champion like Orianna, a champion with fantastic utility, should do as much damage as a champion that only deals damage, you're already lost. Ryze can't even come remotely close to adc damage potential and I'll take a champion that can't endlessly auto through with unmissable attacks and has skill shots over adcs any day. Also if Caitlyn critting you for half your hp as a squishy isn't burst damage I don't know what is. Damage isn't all that matters yeah, unfortunately the only other thing that matters is locking down and protecting for your adc. Look at the damage discrepancy.
Probably because he has a aoe teleport, a point and click snare, shielding, and a build that makes very beefy compared to most squishies. Caitlyn only does that once she has IE, SHiv, and RFC. Before that point, you have the advantage. Also you probably walked on her snare. The point is that she can't just do that whenever she wants. Reliability also matters. Ryze luckily enough, can do exactly that. If you let him get in w range, he will probably burst you for more than half your health while shielding himself. You're only hope for survival is a tank coming in to save you. A good Orianna will: Group up enemy champions with a well placed ult, allowing them and their team to do large aoe damage/enage. They shield themselves or other squishies. They burst key targets. A good caitlyn will deal damage to turrets. They will deal dmage to frontlines. They will position well to avoid dying so that they can take objectives. She will also set up snares to help in sieges and zone choke points. One role almost only deals damage. The other provides much more utility. Are you really surprised that there's a damage discrepancy? Does it really not make sense that there will be a large damage discrepancy? And if you go out of your way to relate everything to the adc, it will feel like everything is in relation to the adc. Does orianna landing a 4 man ultimate make her a support to her jarvan jungle because it allows him to get an easy 4 man ult? Does taric shielding his mage make him the mage support? Does teemo blinding the enemy adc make him a support because it protects his team?
: > [{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AguIPObP,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-02T01:25:24.897+0000) > > Look at that. Can't say I'm shocked. People keep saying "well hurr adc is sustained so it's fine" but every other class gets nerfed when things like that benefit them. Adding counterplay or delay. Meanwhile adcs are the strongest mid game and the only thing that matters late and some are even strong early like ezreal. I mean Jesus look at the damage chart. Just open it and look at it. Look at orianna even compared to ezreal who isn't apparently strong late.
Go ahead. Keep thinking that damage is absolutely the end all everything that matters about a champion. Not even burst damage. Only sustained damage. Want to know what happens when ap dps is strong? We get Ryze. We get Azir. You know, those champions that warp high ranked play and need to be nerfed/reworked every few months? If you seriously think that a champion like Orianna, a champion with fantastic utility, should do as much damage as a champion that only deals damage, you're already lost.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AguIPObP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-02T01:23:38.919+0000) > > Yes, because an hour+ game with lots of tanks is obviously not going to favor consistent DPS champs in the damage charts.
His rank and champion choice doesn't make him wrong. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a champion who's supposed to deal large amounts of sustained damage, consistent damage over time, is going to deal a lot of damage over an hour long game. That's by definition, what sustained damage is. Damage that isn't very much over a short time period, but will add up over a very long time period. On top of that, it's a 74 minute game. That means that the game was in the late stage for the majority of the game. Why wouldn't a class that scales not have a high amount of total damage by the end of the game.
: duh.. adc players are highly self loathing and self destructive, didn't you know that?
Bern (NA)
: Vayne's tumble gives 1s invis during ult, but doesn't proc duskblade. Why is this @_@
You need to wait for the invisibility to fall off to gain the effect of duskblade. If you auto before that, you won't get the proc.
Venompaw (NA)
: Jinx E stops Kaisa's Ult.
Don't ult through a delayed snare wall? JSYK, veigar e also works like this.
Yenn (NA)
: Scale the dodge penalty from 5 to 15 minutes, as the dodge gets closer to the game starting
I literally just dodged a game because I was with a 4 man premade who looked at all my picked and banned them. I waited until the every end of the off chance that somebody on the enemy team would dodge, then dodged when that didn't happen. Should I really be punished with an extra long timer?
: I'm really getting frustrated by those nerfs instantly getting cancelled each patch
These nerf followed by small buffs the perfect method to balance a champion. If that champion goes below certain threshold they aim for, they can partially roll back on the nerf to try and get that champion into that ideal sweet spot. Riot doesn't want to gut champions, Riot wants to balance them. And idc how much you may hate Zoe, she needed buffs. 43% winrate on a champion with a 2% playrate is unacceptable and completely unfair to people who enjoy those champions, regardless of how frustrating those champions may be.
ryona (NA)
: When Riot claims to "look into something" like TP, what's there to assume other than deletion?
Because removing tp would probably push a lot of top laners out of viability. It would turn top lane into an even bigger island than it already. Riot wants top laners to be able to interact with other lanes and removing TP would significantly reduce top lanes ability to do just that.
Rioter Comments
: Big Locket of the Iron Solari Change
tfw you would totally consider this item as a defensive item on an adc.
: Ok, imo rapid fire cannon is one of marksmans biggest problems.
TBH I don't think its rfc, I think its SS. Statikk is what really makes RFC hurt, RFC by itself isn't that damagy and it also has the lowest AS among the zeal items. Statikk also gives waveclear.
Saibbo (EUW)
: >I'm not a fan of this system. it just ends up being a slow attempt at stalling out the game that'll usually mean nothing anyway since the other team will probably outscale you because of dragons, or just get together and end. It isn't satisfying. Well i guess you didn't read the 8.4 patch notes, since they made sure that the teams the get the buffs can win more easily once they snowball
I did read the patch notes. I'm saying i'm not a fan of those changes. I liked the dragon that gave gold better than the buff dragons because even though it was a good snowball objective, it would eventually not matter once teams finished their items. Now it's just straight permanent stats that the other team won't be able to match unless they have a much better late game comp.
: It's not supposed to be easy? Why should it be easy If you fuck up multiple times? Meanwhile if they fuck up *once* at min ~35 you're basically back into the game.
I agree, it shouldn't be easy. But as it is right now, I think it's too difficult to pull off and takes too much time to do so. The argument that i'm making is that it only makes a bad experience. Here how it goes: You surrender and move on You draw out the game another half an hour, the enemy doesn't screw up and you lose. you draw out the game, the enemy screws up, and you end up winning. I'd argue that all of these options feel bad, even the third one. Personally I feel the least bad when its the first one because at least I don't end up being at the mercy of one team for half an hour. I'm not really arguing about how possible or impossible it is, i'm arguing that overall, it creates a negative and draining experience for those on the team that's behind.
YuGiHo (NA)
: your suggestion sounds like something that would kill assassins as a class seeing how they are barely hanging on at all at this point.
Meh, I didn't really think through that suggestion. it was more to throw it out there so it isn't just a regular complaint, even if it mostly is. The idea is that I think it's too rewarding to camp the same lane or focus the same person over and over again. I think a successful snowball should involve killing everybody on the entire team, not just focusing one dude or lane.
Subdue (NA)
: It's not supposed to be easy to turn things around after you've already made numerous mistakes. But really, the stats show that comebacks are possible and occur at about the rate you would expect. 40% of the time the team that loses first blood takes the win. 30% of the time the team that loses first Dragon takes the win. 25% of the time the team that loses first tower takes the win. 20% of the time the team that loses first Baron takes the win. This is about what you would expect out of fair games. Losing early should make the game harder, but not impossibly so.
Not trying to attack you or anything but where did you find those stats? I didn't know there was a source for stats like those.
: actually had a jhin buy all these items, we couldnt catch him, we coudlnt kill him
The Fast. Also that's cause jhin passive gives him MS on crit based on his bonus AS.
: If you can stall, watch for the winning team to have a lull in focus and start splitting aimlessly. The further the game goes, the less gold matters. Have a surgical strike with a power play if you know one of their carries or tanks are in a sideline. All it takes is a good fight to turn the game around. I lost a game today because our team didn't keep tempo and finish.
It's stalling out the game another half an hour on the off chance that the enemy team makes a big mistake. Instead of back and forth fighting, it's holding out in the base until the enemy either screws up or stops wasting time and ends it. That last part takes some coordination however. So usually it'l end up being a ton of stalling out or the enemy just getting more and more kills and snowballing more, until it becomes a cake walk to end. The recent changes to elder dragon and baron don't fix anything except make it even more impossible to come back late game. Except it doesn't change anything until very late game. And all it does is kill the tiny chance that the behind team has at making a late game comeback. That's the problem that I have. I'm not complaining that it's impossible. I'm complaining that it feels bad to play. I'm not gonna speak for other people. I don't find it fun. Maybe some people do, but I certainly don't.
Rioter Comments
XeroKimo (NA)
: Nothing really got nerfed, except runaans, I just shifted the power between statikk and rfc, statikk's burst is clearly toxic, and when it's strong it can overlap with runaans, taking away it's ability to be really good against champions makes sure it can never really overlap. Meanwhile if statikk is weak, Runaans tends to take over statikk's role, so by giving it a light nerf, we can avoid this. Note that it's total AD damage used to be 25% on bolts, and was fine for a long time, even for wave clearing. 75% damage on bolts will make it act as if it deals 30% on minions, and 60% on crit 75% with IE, which will hurt the wave clearing ability a bit, but not too harshly Lastly, RFC is definitely making anyone who doubles it with statikk some safety in applying it's burst damage. I think it's fine, but being able to apply statikk to many targets was not. Giving it the ability to crit, while increasing it's damage will appeal to people that only runs, or used to run RFC without statikk, while also giving it damage to take turrets down faster
You made IE scale crit damage to the point where its weaker at every point until level 18. RFC got somewhat shifted, so i'll give you that one. Something you misunderstand however is that people don't take shiv solely for the waveclear. They take it for the burst. Around 200-300 magic damage on a single auto is hilariously broken. People take Runaan's on champions who can synergize with the extra on-hits, like jinx or twitch. The waveclear is secondary. There's no reason to hit the waveclear because it isn't taken for the waveclear. I guess i'm more angry cause it's a circle jerk that crit item are overpowered when the only problem item is Shiv.
XeroKimo (NA)
: ADC Crit items are bonkers!
I like how your argument is that these items are hurting adc diversity and to address that, you decided that every single crit item had to be nerfed. Cause that's somehow going to affect item diversity. The only one I would argue that needs a nerf is Shiv. Otherwise, lots of adcs build different zeal items based on their kits. Lots of adc like sivir go IE and ER, with one zeal item of their choosing. Some go IE and 2 zeal items, Shiv and RFC being popular cause shiv is stupid. Even vayne used to go PD before shiv and RFC became popular.
: Tristana has Been Utterly Disgusting for 5-6 straight Patches
Good thing they're nerfing her not only this patch, but they also have other things planned for her for 6.5.
: Fixing Critical Strike: A Proposal.
I was actually just thinking about a style of crit and meaning to make a post about it after i'd done some number crunching. Glad you were able to make this though. I'm curious if you took any inspiration from the game Warframe, since they have a crit system very similar to this idea. It also may potentially add zeal items as options to other champiosn who rely on auto attacks, like Shyv or xin.
Aria (EUW)
: Why are they looking at Ahri's Q movement speed?!
Ahri is a balanced champion. She's not doing badly. That's why they're looking at her movement speed. If they buff her w, or any damage at all really, they need to take that power from somewhere else.
: ADC Mains Gold Plat and Dimound
Cull- almost never go for this unless you had to back without enough gold to get a higher ad item like BF or pickaxe. Some champions like Jhin or xayah like to go for items with long swords as part of the build, in which case you should go towards the long swords and the item that they build into. Only buy cull if you're playing a champion that rushes IE, but you don't have enough gold for pickaxe or bf. dorans blade- I usually start with this item nowadays. When in doubt, pick this. I usually don't go double dorans blade at any point. I'll usually opt for cull should the situation arise. Doran's shield is good in matchups where you know you're not going to be going for aggressive plays and you know you're going to need extra sustain. You might consider purchasing it into champions like MF, Brand, draven, or lucian. Doran's ring can be a good purchase on adcs who like having mana early game, like jhin and MF. if you plan on buying this, buy it at the start. Not really a good idea to buy this as anything else other than a starting item. Another start to consider is long sword+3pots. Some champions like Jhin and MF like to go right into lethality items like youmuus and duskblade. This allows you to build long sword right into serrated dirk and caulfields hammer on first back and can help you spike earlier. Don't buy relic shield as adc. It would have been a good idea two patches ago, but it's not worth it anymore. the zeal items that you pick up will depend on the champion you're playing and the state of the game. In general, you want to buy IE/ER and one zeal item and your first 2 items. You're third item is more situational. You may want your third crit item if you're snowballing. You may want some defense/sustain if things aren't going well. You might want armor pen if the enemy has a few tanks. some zeal guidelines: RFC is good if you want to be poking people with AAs every now and then, or if you're planning on getting SS. Champiosn with high AA ranges work well with this item, like Cait, Jinx, and Trist. Runaans is good for champions with strong on hit abilities, like kog, varus, and kalista. It's also good on Jinx because of her AOE autos. SS is good for champions who like to burst, like vayne and twitch. it's also good for waveclear. PD is good on shorter range carries like vayne or xayah who need to be closer to the action and constantly move. it's also good if you know the enemy has an assassin that's going to go ham for you every fight, and you may need the damage reduction.
: Good argument. But, to fix the problem, where does one start? My suggestion would be to start at the ADC issue (this comes from an ADC player, mind you): - Nerf Statikk Shiv in particular (that item accounts for a lot of ADC burstiness) and Zeal Upgrades cost in general (2900 gold or so) - Infinity Edge to 3800 gold (and possibly 75 AD), or 4000 gold and 75-80 AD, **and** - Retool Cloak of Agility: Builds from BF Sword + Brawler's Glove, total 2000 gold, 45-50 AD & 20% Crit Chance; an intermediate powerspike item for crit ADCs to not go all the way back to "ADC in 2k17 lul". Builds into Essence Reaver and Infinity Edge. - Lord Dominik's and Mortal Reminder go back to 45% bonus Armor Penetration to better deal with tanks from the ADC side **and** - New effect for Black Cleaver: Unique passive - Last Whisper: Gain 10-15% bonus Armor Penetration against targets with 6 stacks of the Cleaver debuff (to allow sustained damage fighters, Cleaver's intended users, to better deal with tanks, without making the item overbearing if stacked with Last Whisper on the same user) - An intermediate item from Pickaxe and Vampiric Sceptre to build into Bloodthirster (+ BF Sword), Death's Dance (+ Warhammer) and Ravenous Hydra (+ Tiamat). Again, an intermediate power consolidation item on the respective build paths to allow smoothened power progression and the ability to sit on a mid-tier item. All three of these items suffer from their 3-component build paths unless they are built first item with lots of open item slots. This would help both ADCs (BT and DD) and fighters (RH and DD).
I gotta give it to you, the changes you listed are the only ones that I've seen that actually makes an effort to not completely shaft adcs, like "nerf crit damage to 150% total ad". They actually seem like good changes too. Well done.
Elohaven (NA)
: Seeing the suggestions for gameplay balance with ADCs vs Tanks vs Assassins vs Supports
> People say "the better botlane" wins but every instance of the "better botlane" involves a third party like a jungler, midlaner, or toplaner giving that lane an advantage if they're behind or not. Often that help allows their lane to come back - so it's not the better botlane. There's evidence other lanes have impact. This right here. It's not the better bot lane. It's the bot lane that had more attention from other lanes.
kyN1 (NA)
: Maybe Caitlyn's 90 Caliber Net should block abilities like Yasuo's Wind Wall But for real, she's already a safe carry, a little on the weak side tho. It's really just numbers she needs, not a whole new mechanic, and a strong one at that.
: What was the reasoning behind Jinx Buffs?
Don't use It's known that it isn't as reliable. According to and lolaytics, she's sitting at a 49.44% and 50.45%. Slightly above what she was before, but not ridiculously more. > > [{quoted}](name=1CreepAbove,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r3fv3BYf,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-28T16:51:56.072+0000) > If someone from Riot balancing team reads this, something has to be done about Zoe and Galio Q. Why would any of them listen to you after you just personally attacked one of them?
: What to do if your team does alright but you are feeding?
Basically, become a support for your team. Do what you can to not die. Find ways to enable your team to take objectives, get kills, take advantages. It actually takes some knowledge and skill to be good at being carried. It's a bit more of a passive style of play where you are trying find every little advantage you can take without risking much.
: Actually, if i remember correctly, it was total attack speed before. If you look at the patch notes on the wiki page, the patch where they added the stacking attack speed also says total attack speed.
Aalydon (NA)
: @Riot Please Confirm Patch Notes Missed Changes for Jinx's Passive
Actually, if i remember correctly, it was total attack speed before. If you look at the patch notes on the wiki page, the patch where they added the stacking attack speed also says total attack speed.
Mojihito666 (EUNE)
: Why did you nerf Jinx
They didn't. You just have to actually use minigun now, instead of keeping it as a farming tool.
Sasogwa (EUW)
: If big shields, constant kite and peeling are a staple ;
Shielding and healing are not a staple because other supports exist, such as brand, leona, or sion. Nerfing the base defensive stats of adcs will result in 2 things. it will either kill off the marksman class, because they are already pretty squishy, or it will kill off alternative supports; supports without peeling/shielding. This change would probably make healing and shields a staple because adcs wouldn't be able to survive anything without it. Big shields and peeling are meta rn because of the overheal/targons start. This made hypercarry adcs like Trist and vayne popular because it allowed them to survive the poke heavy meta we had before. I think this is going to change because of the nerfs to targon and in particular, the removal of the shield from completing the quest.
KuraSei (NA)
: Jinx perma slowing me late game is fun
Jinx w is hands down one of the easiest skillshots in the game to dodge. It has a noticeably high cast time and is highly telegraphed. Her chompers are also delayed. If you are having trouble with her cc of all things, only one thing can help you. Git Gud.
: Nah they were a problem but kog was shreding us while i tried to kill them.
So their frontline did their job by distracting you and keeping them away from kog'maw. The lulu shielded kog, while kog did damage. Everyone on their team did exactly what they needed to do. And you somehow want to be able to win that? You got counterpicked. If you picked an assassin into a lulu, or she picked after you, you got your ass countered. Why would anyone take lulu if she couldn't even protect her adc. And if for some reason you were trying to dive alone against her and your adc, why would you be able to win a 1v2. That would be stupidly unfair.
koshkyra (NA)
: I love going 5/0 as lux mid and still losing because my botlane lost
One fed person vs two fed people/1 super fed person. Which team do you think is doing better? Doesn't take a genius to do basic math. Also, why would a jungler camp another lane if he could camp two of his teammates at the same time, near the dragon pit, against enemies that are lower then the jungler.
: There is more counterplay to a fed mage than there is counterplay to a fed marksmen. All the marksmen have to do is auto you 3-4 times with their 100% chance to hit auto attacks, there is no way anyone can screw up auto attacking. Mages have to deal with cooldowns, every weakness of skillshots, more expensive items etc. Lets not forget they also have a role that's dedicated to protecting them making killing that fed adc even harder LUL.
If the marksman is in range to auto you, you're not using your range and cc. If you're trying to kill an adc with a support by yourself, you are 2v1ing. Why should you win that. Skillshots almost always have more range than auto attacks. Mage items are more expensive because item by item they are more impactful per item.
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