: Sion's lore has had contradictory elements since Swains update, infact sion might be the only 'modern' champ in a truly desperate state for brand new lore. But I'm not sure why his connection to Jarvan's somehow reflects negatively. Anyway I think we all just lack the complete understanding of what's being set up, and what's being reconnected so that we can have a cemented and cohesive canon. This first half of the year is going to be heavy on Demacia related content. And we know from other stories being enhanced to make may for new developments, modifying things so they mesh with lore that has and hasn't quite been released to players yet. And I have to say I thought it was J4 first updated lore that was the inferior. At least his capture was pretty much a giant plot of stupidity and convenient coincidence. I thought the first edition could have been done better.
I would argue Xin is in the same position. His lore still mentions people think he is an indebted rune mage in rumours. How does that even makes sense given the current lore? And I more meant there is no place to provide the blood but like it is still considered canon by way of new Swains quotes. But yeah Sion is in a very weird spot and this change doesn't make it better. I do 100% agree with you here tho. We are just going to have to wait for more and see what happens. I guess my issue is as a whole the new bios for Garen, Lux and now Jarvan just gut their lore a little and it's quite noticeable with the change of this section of Jarvan's lore which has been with him since release. And that's fair, you can have that opinion. Honestly yeah tho, Noxus is kinda dumb in it, but now Noxus feels stupider to me because we have Noxus FAILING to capture and 18-19 year old running in the forest instead of capturing him and then losing him in a battle. BUT I don't know how they could fix this at all without Noxus just straight killing this man.
GreenLore (EUW)
: Overall I think this might have been done to make the noxians less "incompetent" looking. I mean J4 is pretty much the most valuable hostage they could ever have,yet they failed to bring him into safety and let him escape. Sure this was due to Garen attacking the camp,but how did Garen even know where J4 was located and how did he get there in time? It honestly feels a bit too conventient how things played out for J4 in this case.
I hate how true this probably is. Though as for J4 breaking out, he can dent the literal earth out of pure strength, I think I'll let this bit slide.
: The problem with Jarvans old lore is that it makes Noxus seem kinda r%%%%%ed, utterly so, and the Demacian nobility as well. First up, he didnt have any kind of guard or adviser who told him that charging dick first into enemy territory is a terrible idea or tried to stop him , then he somehow got conveniently separated from his top level elite royal guards and then despite extended combat he didnt get help and instead got captured. He, his guards and his advisers all look mentally disabled here. Then the Noxians as mentioned ,caught him, had him prisoner for weeks while moving deeper and deeper into Noxus, but somehow conveniently despite Jarvan was a top level important prisoner the camp was still so poorly defended that a troop lead by Garen could sneak up on them and cause such a big commotion that despite not reaching him Jarvan somehow broke free and escaped on his own although injured. Noxus looks like they were all collectively smoking something very damn potent during that entire sequence i mean, why the hells does a top level priority prisoner get kept in some remote and averagely defended camp? Why could Jarvan escape on his own? No guards or chains? Why the fuck could a fully armed troop from Demacia manage to follow a extremely important Noxian convoy for weeks into Noxian territory without anyone realizing they were there? How in the worlds could Jarvan escape despite his injuries? Travel for weeks through unfamiliar lands to get back to the borders of Demacia and only then collapse and be found by Shyvana? How in all the sodding hells could the Demacians not realize there was a very big problem with Shyvana´s appearance? Its very clearly not human and for them to realize that she isnt the very opposite of everything they stand for would be a absolute miracle. The new narrative removes so many of these giant ass problems and the only strange part left is the fact that he was allowed to ignore his advisers and go dickfirst into enemy territory, but its not unreasonable for him to escape a losing battle into a nearby forest and then over the course of days then lose his companions due to Noxian scouts but still getting close to friendly lands in the process but collapsing before he could reach due to his injuries and exhaustion. ...To be honest i´d probably petition the writer to have the lore changed to him attempting something like a surprise raid only to get ambushed instead, makes more sense and people dont seem to stupid. Then given that he was right on the border of Demacian land and inside a forest with his followers having somehow held back the scouts its not impossible for him to somehow make it so close to getting back as he did before collapsing of injuries, which makes encountering Shyvana much more reasonable. And given that the forest was a border area with people not visiting frequently it makes sense for Shyv to hide there, which makes her finding him due to the smell of blood a almost given conclusion...... i mean he just barged through bleeding so a dragons nose wouldnt miss that. Then because she is the abused loner she is its no wonder she decides to be nice, and we already saw that the border villages dont follow the "no magic" thing as much so its not strange once again for them to welcome her when she comes carrying a passed out and wounded soldier of theirs. And given that she was a loner who never had friends is not strange to long for it once she saw how the villages stuck together and even helped Jarvan out despite him not being a direct part of their community. Then the entire dragon attack thing before jarvan taking her back to the capital, a bit more iffy but given that he is the crown prince and the only royal child and Shyvana is his savior its not too odd for the nobility to be unable to say or do anything about her given her merits which makes her joining Demacia work much better. All this until now fixed so, so, so many plotholes and its great. And you seem to have misunderstood, its not j4´s blood that was used to reanimate Sion. Its the blood of his killer, j1, apparently Noxus got his corpse.
Yeah lot's of plot holes. So I will say you have brushed over some things that I would see as issues given the newer version. Like how is an 18 year old winning all these battles? Less a plot hole I guess but less realistic than his messing up majorly like in his other lore. But yeah the break out was always a tricky point so I agree with you there, does make Noxus look utterly stupid. I think we could constantly go through these lore bits and pick at plot holes since they only have limited words unfortunately. But as for Sion, no I'm fairly sure I am right, J1 has been dead for a very long time before Sion's mind was returned (not his corpse back to life but his mind). Blood doesn't stay viable for that long, or rather corpses don't not decompose over several decades. It is surely J4. It is mentioned in Part 3 of the Sion Teaser: > The Anchor: > LEBLANC: I haven't had the pleasure of your company for some time, Grand General. > SWAIN: You have my favor. That is enough. > LEBLANC: And yet, I suspect you're here to seek the Black Rose's assistance once more. > SWAIN: The blood of the **Demacian prince**. How much remains? > LEBLANC: After the last charade? Enough that you should be very mindful of how you use it. Whatever you intend had best be brief. > SWAIN: No chicanery this time; my need for subtlety is nearing its end. I must secure my position with bloodshed, and that requires a blunt instrument. > LEBLANC: It sounds as if you have one in mind. > SWAIN: Let me show you. This is definitely Swain's time and I doubt they would be calling a late king a prince. They are very much referring to Jarvan IV in this conversation. And, new Swain has a voice line for Jarvan IV where he mentions his blood is the only useful thing about him. So yeah, JArvan IV's blood.
: Gonna need to disagree with you personally feel it makes him more fleshed out and relay a bit less on the Shyvannas story making both their own character
> [{quoted}](name=TimelessLuck,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=91bAVHVm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-06T09:43:17.162+0000) > > Gonna need to disagree with you personally feel it makes him more fleshed out and relay a bit less on the Shyvannas story making both their own character Hey that's your opinion. I do personally like the extra detail they added to his childhood but I guess I'm more partial to having the greater detail about his emotions and ordeals when he is older :)
: > I ask because I feel Jarvan's character is somewhat diminished with this new lore, his friendships with Shyvana and Garen feel weaker as less time is offered to them, and he seems to get off easy with a weaker consequence compared to his other lore, as well as his lore not actually needing these changes evident in that the overall plot remains the same despite being fully rewritten. "A bio should be informative, like a characterful encyclopedia of that champion to help onboard people. **They should not be stories, and anything that could be told in a story, should be**" - SCATHLOCKE ____ Entire established plot points, character background and development are not being removed without the strict condition that there was a new development that completely contradicts them. Eg. Ryze was originally witness to Icathia's destruction, which was a contradictory thing now removed. If you think something in the bio did change, and that something has been lost. Simply understand that this is a misplaced, almost irrational anxiety. It is not removed from the character's background, but the details presented were just tweaked to focus the biography on what elements are the utmost relevant.
> [{quoted}](name=Whyte Lyon,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=91bAVHVm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-06T08:48:12.352+0000) > > "A bio should be informative, like a characterful encyclopedia of that champion to help onboard people. **They should not be stories, and anything that could be told in a story, should be**" - SCATHLOCKE > ____ > Entire established plot points, character background and development are not being removed without the strict condition that there was a new development that completely contradicts them. Eg. Ryze was originally witness to Icathia's destruction, which was a contradictory thing now removed. > > If you think something in the bio did change, and that something has been lost. Simply understand that this is a misplaced, almost irrational anxiety. It is not removed from the character's background, but the details presented were just tweaked to focus the biography on what elements are the utmost relevant. My issues is not that the bio is changed so that they wrote the events just differently, sorta how you could say 'this is a green tree' or 'that tree is green'. The issue I'm raising is exactly what you wrote about Ryze and the lore changed. Jarvan NEVER gets captured by Noxus anymore, he escapes capture now in the new lore. This is a new lore piece that contradicts the old one. For instance: > Jarvan’s armies won victory after victory… but the carnage he witnessed in the outlying towns troubled him deeply. When word came that the Gates of Mourning had fallen, he resolved to drive onward into Noxian territory, against the advice of his lieutenants. > Inevitably, with the battalions spread so thin, Jarvan was encircled and defeated by Noxian warbands before he even reached Trevale. > Refusing to surrender, the prince and a handful of other survivors fled into the forests, only to be hounded for days by enemy scouts. Eventually, pierced through his side by an arrow, Jarvan collapsed into the shade of a fallen tree, where he drifted in and out of consciousness. That is the new version of Jarvan's lore, and here is the old version: > Jarvan split his troops, ordering some to remain and care for the injured civilians, while he led the remaining soldiers onward. They ambushed the Noxians during the night, but in the chaos of battle, Jarvan was separated from his guards. He fought fiercely and slew many enemies, but was ultimately overwhelmed. The Noxians took Jarvan IV prisoner, to be paraded through the Immortal Bastion in chains upon reaching Noxus. > As Jarvan was dragged further from Demacia during his weeks of captivity, he was ashamed that the rashness of his decision to pursue the Noxians had led to needless Demacian deaths. Crushed by the loss, he came to believe he no longer deserved to live in Demacia, let alone inherit its throne. > One moonless night, Garen and an intrepid band of soldiers known as the Dauntless Vanguard attacked the Noxian encampment. Though the Demacian warriors could not reach Jarvan, he used the distraction to fight his captors and escape. As he ran, a Noxian soldier shot an arrow into Jarvan’s side, but the young prince persevered and fled into the wilderness. Notice the fact that 'The Noxians took Jarvan IV prisoner' in the old lore and that he was 'dragged away from Demacia during his weeks of captivity' but in the new lore 'the prince and a handful of other survivors fled into the forests, only to be hounded for days by enemy scouts'. Those two event are contradictory which means the old lore event of him being captured didn't happen. This causes issues for Sion's lore which works by Noxus using Jarvan IV's blood to regain his sanity. No capture = no blood. There is also the issue with the ending and Shyvana. As I noted in my questions, the lore has changed from 'But they both knew Demacia as a kingdom remained deeply suspicious of magic, and Shyvana vowed not to reveal her dual nature as she fought at Jarvan’s side' to 'He promised Shyvana that she would always have a place among his guard, if she so chose. ... Though the king was overcome with emotion at his son’s return, some of the gathered nobles quietly questioned the wisdom of allowing such a creature to stand with the prince… let alone serve as one of his protectors.' That is a big lore change that affects Shyvana. I can happily make a list of all the changes, so things that were part of the lore but not have something that fully contradicts that. So while I appreciate being reminded of the quote from Scathlocke, it does not apply to this situation as this isn't about reducing details of an event ( a good example of that would be 'He was devastated. He had failed his family, his kingdom, and his brothers-in-arms.' vs '...he was ashamed that the rashness of his decision to pursue the Noxians had led to needless Demacian deaths. Crushed by the loss, he came to believe he no longer deserved to live in Demacia, let alone inherit its throne.' which says the same but far shorter) but completely removing them and replacing them with those of lesser consequence - those consequences once being capture and implied torture for a weeks into hiding in a forest for days. It just doesn't have the same impact.
Rioter Comments
Ask Kayn (NA)
: It is a possible future. A result of the "what if" scenario. I mean, if Kayn wants to become the Emperor, he needs to get rid of the previous one. Rhaast seeks the destruction of the universe, which also implies Jarvan's (and everyone else's) deaths. Given DarkStar Jarvan's past, he might very well die betrayed.
> [{quoted}](name=Ask Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bl6eEUc9,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-09-24T21:46:43.143+0000) > > It is a possible future. A result of the "what if" scenario. > > I mean, if Kayn wants to become the Emperor, he needs to get rid of the previous one. Rhaast seeks the destruction of the universe, which also implies Jarvan's (and everyone else's) deaths. > > Given DarkStar Jarvan's past, he might very well die betrayed. Yeah this is what I had thought. Though we don't know as of yet if Emperor Jarvan in this verse is the one that becomes Dark Star Jarvan, that's what we are trying to find out.
: that, detective is the right question
> [{quoted}](name=Carnival Knights,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bl6eEUc9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-24T20:07:17.248+0000) > > that, detective > > is the right question So my assumptions of: > [{quoted}](name=BaWsMaNn,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bl6eEUc9,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-09-24T08:37:38.245+0000) > So my question is, would it be reasonable to assuming the Emperor Jarvan mentioned in Odyssey Kayn's lore later becomes a Dark Star due to Kayn's actions? And, if so, can we expect to see any Dark Star Jarvan and Odyssey Kayn stuff in the future? are right?! Will there be more lore released on this? Gosh, I really hope so!
SatomiKun (EUW)
: How I understood it, the Dark Star universe and the Odyssey universe are not the same. But somehow, Rhaast (as a corruptor from the Dark Stars) went through the Ora portal and ended up in the Odyssey universe. So Rhaast is basically a visitor from another dimension. In this other dimension, Jarvan got corrupted into a Dark Star. But since these 2 dimensions have significant differences (Odyssey doesn't have the Dark Star, Dark Star doesn't have Ora), it is save to assume that these 2 Jarvans are different entities with different back stories.
> [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bl6eEUc9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-24T13:31:34.133+0000) > > How I understood it, the Dark Star universe and the Odyssey universe are not the same. > But somehow, Rhaast (as a corrupting from the Dark Stars) went through the Ora portal and ended up in the Odyssey universe. > > So Rhaast is basically a visitor from another dimension. In this other dimension, Jarvan got corrupted into a Dark Star. But since these 2 dimensions have significant differences (Odyssey doesn't have the Dark Star, Dark Star doesn't have Ora), it is save to assume that these 2 Jarvans are different entities with different back stories. Yeah, that's how I took it. I figure it goes by this order events: Dark Stars exist in other universe > Rhaast passes through into the Odyssey Universe > Kayn, friend of Emperor Jarvan and High Ordinal, finds Rhaast > Kayn starts disobeying Jarvan > Kayn eventually 'takes' his place as emperor, kills Jarvan in the process and either becoming Cosmic Emperor Kayn or Dark Star Rhaast > either Rhaast rampages or Kayn's insanity leads him to kill everyone > Dark Star Jarvan is born from the ruins. Tho i wonder then, what Jarvan of the dark star verse does?
: Thanks and you’re right but the fact that Carnival Knights didn’t give a clear cut answer as to if the two were linked makes me think they’re not or that it’s a spoiler for a future skin storyline. Even if DS J4’s pretty much spoils it anyway.
> [{quoted}](name=Wife of Jarvan,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bl6eEUc9,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-09-24T12:15:58.217+0000) > > Thanks and you’re right but the fact that Carnival Knights didn’t give a clear cut answer as to if the two were linked makes me think they’re not or that it’s a spoiler for a future skin storyline. Even if DS J4’s pretty much spoils it anyway. Yeah, it's a bit frustrating though. Maybe Carnival Knights will see this tho and clear everything up.
Zapzya (OCE)
: I think they left it open enough that Odyssey Jarvan still has the potential to become Dark Star Jarvan, which would be a good point of connection for the two universes. Or maybe they are just doing the whole parallel timeline thing.
> [{quoted}](name=Zapzya,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bl6eEUc9,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-09-24T12:07:18.668+0000) > > I think they left it open enough that Odyssey Jarvan still has the potential to become Dark Star Jarvan, which would be a good point of connection for the two universes. Or maybe they are just doing the whole parallel timeline thing. Who knows, I hope it's the former! But if they explain the later well enough I would be happy too. I just want answers!
: There are two seperate Emperor Jarvans (Emperors Jarvan? I don't know the correct plural there) in two seperate, but linked universes. Rhaast is from the Dark Star universe (where Dark Star Jarvan exists), but some how ended up in the Odyssey universe (where Emperor Jarvan of the Demaxian Empire, or whatever it's called, exists). Think Crisis on Infinite Earths.
> [{quoted}](name=Nik Nikerson,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bl6eEUc9,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T12:01:23.302+0000) > > There are two seperate Emperor Jarvans (Emperors Jarvan? I don't know the correct plural there) in two seperate, but linked universes. Rhaast is from the Dark Star universe (where Dark Star Jarvan exists), but some how ended up in the Odyssey universe (where Emperor Jarvan of the Demaxian Empire, or whatever it's called, exists). > > Think Crisis on Infinite Earths. Yeah. That could be it, though I would be disappointed personally. I'd like for them to be linked since it could so easily be. Plus I think it would be cooler.
: No, a rioter here implied Dark Star Jarvan was a separate entity to Empror Jarvan and that Emperor Jarvan doesn’t become Dark Star Jarvan. Which makes it more confusing. I try to find you the exact thread. Edit: here you go https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/6Qocoqex-im-confused-with-a-bit-of-odyssey-lore
> [{quoted}](name=Wife of Jarvan,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bl6eEUc9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-24T11:23:27.230+0000) > > No, a rioter here implied Dark Star Jarvan was a separate entity to Empror Jarvan and that Emperor Jarvan doesn’t become Dark Star Jarvan. Which makes it more confusing. I try to find you the exact thread. > > Edit: here you go https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/6Qocoqex-im-confused-with-a-bit-of-odyssey-lore That is really confusing considering their lores, because either way Dark Star Jarvan WAS a space emperor so now we have 2 space emperor Jarvans in one linked universe? Though, in response to the asker asking: > If this assumes Dark Star and Odyssey share the same universe... does this mean that is using the Demaxians as unwitting pawns to solidify the Dark Star's endgame? Or is this universe set before the "humanity and his people lost forever" debacle that led to him becoming Dark Star J4? I could only find this as a response: > Jarvan is just a mortal emperor doing Mortal Emperor Stuff, and Kayn starts actively disobeying him the minute he picks up the scythe. Dude has no idea what a Dark Star is... we do because, obviously, we have Player Knowledge. They do not. Which unfortunately only actually gives us an answer on the first question. I do hope a rioter sees this and clears it up, I'd love to know! (ps. i love the name)
  Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Ryugi Kazamaru,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=iJ62W5JM,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-05T23:27:21.372+0000) > > It seems my [in-universe letter](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/bmExZ8PN-cartographer-seeking-shuriman-merchant-of-the-glowing-life) was removed or deleted because the mod in question must not have gotten that it was addressed to you, and linked to the Shuriman Tablet Map, trying to talk to the character you were playing in that discussion thread. Aw. Sorry. I saw the thread and was waiting until I got home to reply. It was a fun piece of writing too :/ > TL:DR - Can you confirm the scratched-out area is supposed to be Icathia? Pretty sure it is. Yes! Icathia was striken from the record when it turned from a relatively normal place to the beginnings of what it has come to be. An example of damnatio memoriae. > TL:DR - That totally looks like a croc. Would it be safe to assume that the Plague Jungles/Kumungu might be over there? And, if not, what exactly might that be hinting at? Well spotted on the croc! It is, however, not safe to assume that there are jungles over there. There _was_ water there, when the map was created. > TL:DR - That looks like Zilean's clocktower. Would it be safe to assume that might be where Urtistan is? It's not Zilean's clocktower, unfortunately. Shurima did have, at one time, a network of 'lighthouse'-like constructions that were used for navigation through the vast distances of Shurima. They may also have been used for signaling. Doubtful any have survived. > > TL:DR - The mountain to the south is the largest feature on the map, which would seem to suggest that it's Mount Targon, but that's pretty different, which leave it a very confusing development. Can you comment or elaborate on that somehow? ...yeah. So. Let's pretend that the Shuriman creator of the map was mistaken when they put the giant, map-dominating, mountain to the South. Wouldn't put too much faith in that particular representation. > TL:DR - Theories on what that is consist of it being Malphite's new home in new lore (The Monolith maybe?), because it looks like his head, or maybe it's the thing Skarner is guarding? I would suggest that the outcropping has a more... crystalline form than rocky. I know it's really hard to make out in this version of the map, though. > I pulled the Shurima Tablet Map into Photoshop and blew it up and messed with contrast and other things to try and clarify some of the details, and that's what I managed to come up with. Understanding the things I've mentioned would really help me, and others, get a handle on some of the locations of these territories, and help me construct a better map in my head, and on my own time.
> Yes! Icathia was striken from the record when it turned from a relatively normal place to the beginnings of what it has come to be. An example of damnatio memoriae. Just a question about this. Does this mean the original map of Valoran is wrong and that Icathia is now to the west of the continent not to the east as stated in Malzahar's lore? If it's position has moved does it still share borders with the Tempest Flats and the Voodoo Lands? Sorry if this is a bother, I just really enjoy the Void champions and their lore so it is really cool to see Icathia included on the map.

BaWsMaNn

Level 61 (OCE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion