: I am saying this only because I got a little insight into how these specific Developers work on champions. She is a passionate player who used to main Karma. I feel like with every fiber in her being, she wasn't allowed to do what she wanted because of massive restrictions, no help, and feedback from higher ups who have a history of not actually addressing problems with Karma. From what she actually said, Naomi had to remain impartial working on Karma. There was a lot she honestly tried and wanted to bring back, but sometimes it just doesn't work out when you don't have the support, resources and time to get it all done. These Developers have to work within the parameters and art that already exists on the champion. They have horrible time constraints and every second wasted means more time is being taken away from something else on the champion. Let's also add in the fact she was fighting an uphill battle on a kit that was made a mess by previous Developers. There is a MASSIVE divide between Old and New Karma players that would make either side incredibly upset about the changes. Is the rework successful? No it isn't. Instead of tackling Karma's problems and really trying to find a compromise between Old and New Karma players, we have a rework that continues to cater one side of Karma. Karma has problems that were not originally solved with the relaunch or actually completed, which is a gameplay identity. The type of work Karma really needs is way out of the scope of what Naomi did with the rework. It's the God's honest truth. She was doomed from the start. I appreciate Naomi and her willingness to actually communicate with us about Karma, because that is something I and so many others have been trying to do with Developers like Meddler and Reav3s for years. The failure of this rework falls on Meddler and Reav3s, because they waited too long to actually address this champion and it still seems like neither of them understand the division they created.
This is why I say let NeuroCat move on with her idea baby. It doesn't have to be implemented. At this rate, even if NeuroCat coughs something out, it'll add to the list of glaring problems that Karma already has. But besides that, I would have to say that despite NeuroCat trying to bring back the old stuffs, I can't help but a part of her was being very selective about the feedback. No shield bomb? That's okay. No tether, sure. But how about looking at Q/RQ? Why is that ability left untouched for so long? Instead, what NeuroCat does is shift the values around, tinker with unnecessary base stats instead of working on giving Q some meaningful tools to be a good damage and waveclear tool. Nothing good will come out of forcing NeuroCat to implement changes that don't make sense, like the W Harmony or Soul Alights. We've always been taken for granted because I don't think any pro players, league streamers have ever spoken about the controversy of Karma's case. Neither of us are reputable enough for people to realize Riot isn't quite good at keeping promises. Months ago, I read about how Riot underwent staffing changes, released a memo stating they'll do better, will be more responsive towards to community feedback. Yet this here, this is the total opposite of that. NeuroCat, being a Karma main and knowing full well how these changes would bring significant backlash, carried on with the changes. That is not how things should be done. Like I said, we all appreciate her diligence, but the diligence she's putting forth in the changes have resulted in sheer stupidity. At this point, it isn't about minding a Rioter's feelings. It's more so of ensuring a larger mess isn't created. If NeuroCat can't solve the problem, then she could at least not create more problems. I stand by what I said. NeuroCat just isn't the right person for the job. She was definitely a step towards improvement, but quickly took a step backwards. Literally, we had the entire playerbase giving her the resources she needed to accomplish the job. But yet we ended with a mechanic that just doesn't feel like it fits nicely in to Karma's kit. Two words is all there is needed to be said. Move on.
: Hi all, I'm glad there are a lot of people really excited about the changes, but I think that I've heard two main negative sentiments crop up. I'll try to address them as best I can.     #\#1 - Karma's Ally W is broken with certain champs or will be super strong in coordinated play, forcing us to nerf her/balance her around her new W First, the new Ally-W is a strong effect. We wanted to give Karma a tool which has really great strengths when used effectively - experienced Karma players should be able to use this to the best of its abilities. However, we did very intentionally take a number of steps to try to mitigate these risk factors. 1. We gave Karma her _Souls Alight_ passive to help Karma understand when its valuable for her to use W without having to be on voice comms. Additionally, the flat Cooldown Reduction is applied fairly flexibly, opening up the number of picks that its useful with. We've noticed it feels great with Tanks, Mages, other Supports, ADCs with long cooldowns or mana hungry ADCs, so we're hoping that there are a lot of different viable targets and team compositions that feel nice with Karma. 2. The cooldown reduction applied has a stipulation to prevent outright abuse cases of back-to-back spellcasts (chain hard CC). Karma's W attempts to apply CDR every quarter second, but it will not reduce an ability's remaining cooldown to a point of coming off cooldown within 3s of the last time it was cast. This ensures a "3s buffer" between spellcasts affected by Karma's W. We believe this mitigates most of the straight up abuse cases associated with Karma's W. We understand that there's still some risk here, and will be actively monitoring anything that gets too out of control.     #\#2 - These changes feel like they are shoving Karma strictly into the support role/as a solo-lane Karma player, I feel underserved by these changes This is fair feedback. The biggest, coolest change is definitely the Ally-cast W, which primarily serves to help your allies. I'd argue that Allycast-W has a lot of applications for solo lane Karma, whether that's jungle ganks or teamfights. However, I think something I failed to deliver was the scope of buffs and tuning changes we're planning with these changes (since I did not include numbers). So I'll preview the tuning changes below. **Please keep in mind that these are not final numbers - we may change these drastically depending on initial balance reads from the PBE**: * Base Stats * Move Speed: 335 >>> 330 * HP Regen: 5.5 (+0.55/lvl) >>> 7 (+0.6/lvl) * Armor: 26 >>> 30 * Passive - Gathering Fire * Kindled Spirit * Cooldown reduced on Mantra from damage dealt: 2/3/4 (levels 1/7/13) >>> 3/4/5/6 (ult ranks) * No longer halved on auto-attacks * Now works against large monsters * Now operates on a charge system * Karma gains 1 charge per 7 seconds, to a cap of 3 charges * [NEW] Souls Alight * Karma can see an indicator for her ally's total basic spell cooldowns * Q - Inner Flame * Mantra - Soulflare * Bonus Damage: 25/75/125/175 (+30% AP) >>> 35/105/175/245 (+45% AP) * Detonation Damage: 35/140/245/350 (+60% AP) >>> 25/110/195/280 (+45% AP) * W - Spirit Bond * Cooldown: 12 >>> 16 * Mana: 50-70 >>> 70 * Damage per tick: 30/55/80/105/130 (+45% AP) >>> 50/75/100/125/150 (+60% AP) * Mantra - Renewal * Healing (per tick): 20% (+0.01% AP) of missing health >>> 15% of missing health + 25% AP * [NEW] Ally Cast: * Reduces an ally's basic ability cooldowns by up to 10s total over the bond duration (2s). * Mantra - Harmony * Plus 20/30/40/50s cooldown reduction. Returns 20% of Max Mana to the ally. * E - Inspire * Shield: 70/95/120/145/170 (+50% AP) >>> 75/100/125/150/175 (+55% AP) * Move Speed Bonus: 40/45/50/55/60% >>> 35/40/45/50/55% * Mantra - Defiance * Shared Shield Percent: 30% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets * Shared Movespeed Percent: 100% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets We believe that solo lane Karma is properly served by the base stat changes, adjustments to AP ratios, and relative strengths of the Enemy-W cast as a alternative option, but we will definitely see how these land and make sure that solo lane Karma players feel like they can play their champion effectively. However, I will reaffirm that proper choice of which cast of W to use in a given situation is an important skill for Karma in any lane - good Karma players will exercise the proper decisionmaking, both through the modal W cast and Mantra choice, her signature spell.
I'm sorry, NeuroCat. But please just move on with your idea baby and call it a wrap up. I'll gladly wait for the next Rioter whose bold enough to come in and make significant changes so much so that those changes are actually worth it. I'm happy that you're putting in the effort to improve Karma, but the more we tread along the dicussion of Karma changes, the more obvious it gets that you're not the right person to work on Karma. Even with numbers and scalings revealed, you're doing what most devs have with Karma, going back to square 1, buffing her values and then slapping on a new mechanic. This isn't anything new to us. No matter how subtly you word it, how differently you phrase your context, the changes are still the same and its the same ol, unintuitive approach to Karma. I find it sad that after all the effort you've taken just to build a rapport with us, you threw it out of window so quickly with just 2 dev posts, what more when your earlier post mentioned how solo-lane Karma isn't an intended priority of yours and now coming over to word it as a "misconception". No matter how much numbers you give to Karma, we're working with the same kit that makes Mage Karma underwhelming. I said this before. 70% of the posts are calling for Karma to have her shieldbomb back, but instead of playing with that option, you play with values involving her base stats, HP regen, shifting damage portions around. This is frustrating. What more when you've been asking for feedback and feedback is right before you. Players are telling you exactly what to do, but you turn a deaf ear to things and go the other direction. And eventually, you're just going to fault Karma as a champion when things don't work out. Just move on, NeuroCat. Really, move on. You have all the diligence of the Riot devs we've seen working on Karma thus far, but you're too afraid of stepping out of your comfort zone, and it's just making things for all of us. Even with the majority being happy with changes, you know deep down that these changes don't solve long-term issues, glaring ones. It's just sad that you still insist on working on the current kit when you have so much more to offer and give to improve Karma. You tried all versions internally, but without let PBE players try them out. You don't give yourself a chance to make drastic changes to improve something, and you stick to the conventional path and make things worse. All these changes just aren't cutting in, Naomi. What's the point of having RQ's detonation now? What's the point of all these changes knowing that they don't solve Karma's issue? What's the point of working on Karma's kit knowing full well you're tackling the kit at the same angle like the past devs, which doesn't work anyway? When you started working on Karma, you should have realized that a part of making Karma better meant having to be controversial with the changes. That means doing away with what you knw. And by controversial, I mean controversial for Riot, not the players. Meaning stepping out of that Karma zone that Riot wants to be in and going in to the zone that Karma players are. Again, just move on, Naomi. Just move on and icebox the ideas. We don't blame you. Hopefully someone better will come along and make the bold move that you were too afraid to do so.
SanKakU (NA)
: Not even going to read all of that giant wall of text but I read a small part of the beginning and I have to disagree with you. If you wanted her to change drastically then I would say your opinion is invalid. Riot has been deleting champs for no good reason, the last thing we need is another champion deletion.
If you're not going to read the whole post, the don't bother commenting. Because you're just replying based on a list of assumptions vs. what I really said. Not going to apologize either. The only way Karma will actually be at a decent spot is if Riot actually does a significant amount of work on her.
: Karma Gameplay Change Preview
I am always late for any Karma-related development post. And considering the fact that I have no access to PBE stuffs, I have no choice but to only read changes via notes and posts. I tried to join the Karma mains discord since you're there, but alas, the mods ban me out for being too outspoken. Anyways, NeuroCat, this is what I have to say. I'm going to be honest. I came in expecting to see interesting iterations being tried on Karma but clearly this version has taken a step back to what we're hoping to avoid. There are so many wrongs here and you've made one of the biggest mistakes that a dev would make, but I'll go through them one by one. The first thing I'm seeing here is we're essentially going back to a Karma kit that does everything, but excels at nothing. So we're still working on a Karma that lacks niche and specific identity. What's changed is that you guys are slapping on another new effect on to her W to make things work and by the looks of it, the thematic it doesn't fit well and feels extremely forced. **"Well, let's just do this because my team on the update team is running out and I've got to get something out." ** Then, perhaps we can justify our changes through a lore-related trait - **Karma is a spiritual leader of the Ionian people, and like all great leaders, Karma has the ability to see the potential in those she works with and help bring out their fullest ability** No, NeuroCat, please don't go down the path of the past Riot Devs. I was started to have hopes for Karma until your second iterations to W came in, and now E. The second mistake I'm seeing here is the refusal to bring back Shield Bomb for reasons going along the lines of "Because current Karma players are attached to it." No, NeuroCat, just no. This sounds very very wrong, if anything, a lot of players, old or new, past or current are all happy to try out Shield Bomb. Many people want to see this ability return despite reasonings such as "positional requirement" or "complexity bar". There is nothing, and I truly mean nothing complex about shield bomb. It's just like any other mages, you need to learn positioning for an ability but it does not raise any complexity bar. This is a horrible excuse and why my opinions are being swayed away. I rather have the oldest version of Shield come back, high value, single target shield that when mantra-ed becomes an AoE damage ability. Work on that one NeuroCat, whether people love or hate the current shield, work on the oldest version of Shield Bomb. I think it's a bad sign of a developer to write of an ability for reasons that aren't important -"Current playerbase are too attached to the new version." or "Too much complexity", or "Too much work". Your role with the team started out with a mini-rework, I assumed you're going to change W and only W alone. How did we get to changing E ever so slightly and then raising a discussion about what Rioters presume they know best about Karma mains? The third mistake, you went ahead and did what Meddler shouldn't had done - saying that Karma is support more so than a mid-lane mage. After so many patches, so many seasons, so many subclasses and categories being released, even Meddler struggles to define Karma. And yet here you are, saying that Karma is more support than a mid lane mage. What's more ironic is that Karma is currently a battlemage but even back in your first Karma dev post, you listed Karma as a backline mage. The disconnection is glaring but you're continuing to reinforce the same mistake that Meddler made. I think it's been made very clear, Karma being changed for mid is more of a must-requirement than a possible-requirement. We don't want devs to say "I think Karma will be stronger now." or "Karma mid is **possible now**, but she'll still be good bot" and most certainly, we do not want to see "Karma will be a good AP bot carry" now. Oh god Neuro, please please please don't go down that path. You're shattering so much faith that I have in you because of all these justifications that just don't make any sense. This has to be emphasized over and over again, Karma is not a supportive mage. Karma is a mage with supportive tools. Damage, waveclear, teamfight damage and carrying should be her primary concern, not utility. I'm not going to apologize for being harsh, but it seems that most, if not all feedbacks from your first post fell on deaf ears and right now it seems like you're trying on random effects just to get something done before you leave. And then, the gameplay team will have a reason to keep Karma in another half-assed state for awhile so the community continues to be divided with her changes. **You need to get that "Karma is a spiritual leader that sees potentials in others" or "Karma is a backline mage" out of the box. No one ever said that Karma can't be a in the middle of the fray kind of battlemage. ** I think having Karma being the middle of the enemy teamfight is much more satisfying that throwing Qs and Shielding from the back. This will never change, it's boring, bland and just completely uninteractive. I don't know what the discord Karma mains have been saying to you, but we do not want Karma to be flashy. But she should be significantly more interactive than her current version. Please for the love of god, drop the iteration and move on with your idea baby if it doesn't work. But, please don't propose an iteration that makes no sense and continue to destroy Karma and leave her in another state until someone comes along and starts implementing changes without fear of being hated on by the community. You, along with Meddler and the rest, chose to appeal to the bigger crowd in fear of knowing that the backlash from the mid Karma playerbase is less painful to deal with. A smart dev knows when to walk away if their changes aren't working and work on it again when they have time, even if its months or years or never. But please don't, I repeat, don't make changes to Karma like ricklessabandon did and left her in the state that she is now. Also, if you really want to free up power budget for Karma, please take a look at her Q and RQ. Just, for the love of god, look and change that ability more than you would with W and E. The Karma mains at discord says nobody ever mentions of Q/RQ the slightest, but that ability is boring and most importantly, it doesn't waveclear as efficiently as any other standard waveclear tools. It doesn't matter if some Karma mains come along and say "Just aim it at X angle" or "Her Q cooldown is fine". What defines a good waveclear ability is the amount of times it takes for a mage to spam said waveclear ability to effeciently clear. Ahri's Q takes one cast, Orianna's Q+W takes one cast, Morgana's E takes one cast, Lux's E takes one cast, Taliyah's W+E, Q takes one cast. You get the point. All mages clear waves in one rotation, while Karma relies on two Qs, that's 6-8 seconds for a waveclear to happen. Please, please, please for the love god, look at Q/RQ and give her something much more interesting than one-shotting people because that's not the point of a poke ability. If you want Karma to be a backline mage, IF anyway and that doesn't mean it should continue to be that way, Q and RQ needs to be more impactful because this ability just sucks for any midlane Karmas to teamfight with. And lastly, please please please look at Mantra. It's just a massive disappointment that you're not looking at Mantra AT ALL. 70% of the posts have been suggesting Mantra to be on a charge, but you still reinforce the idea of an "ultimate". I think that sums it all for my post. I may never have access to PBE, the changes may even help Karma, but it certainly doesn't hit the node that you, nor I, nor some Karma mid players or many diehard Karma players hope to achieve. Your second WIP clearly shows that you're going back to square 1 and more importantly, that you're moving back in the Karma comfort zone where so many developers are afraid of moving out of. The changes, if any don't look interesting for me to want to go to great lengths to access PBE. I really am happy that you're working on Karma, building rapport with Karma players, but all of that rapport feels like it's been thrown out of the window by refusing to acknowledge Shield Bomb was a mechanic that made Karma iconic and unique. Instead, you went along the routes of saying X champion is preferred by X community currently. This just means you don't have enough respect for the champion to make the changes. And what more by saying X champion is more support than mid when it was the other round. This is no different from Zyra who had to go bot because she can no longer compete with ridiculous mobility at mid. By the time you leave the team to focus on whatever projects you're supposed to do, I bet you Karma will be in a shittier spot than she is. Please just leave and move on with the idea baby if your time is limited. Having limited time doesn't mean you need to enforce something. I'd rather you stay for an infinite period of time to work on Karma, or don't work on her at all if you're going to leave soon. Elect someone whom you'd believe will do a good job at listening and they can continue the good positive attitude that the Karma playerbase likes you for. But don't go throwing all of that out by forcing something and then leaving something bad in your name. You're only going to continue the cycle for Karma devs at this rate.
: Clothesline Karma Mini-Retrospective
Thanks for posting NeuroCat, but I'm particularly confused about one thing. > We wanted to validate or invalidate this, since Karma’s role and League in general has changed significantly over the last 5 years. > In the end, we aren’t shipping the clothesline on Karma, but honestly, our playtesters had a ton of fun with it in the versions we tried. I could see this mechanic being really successful and fun with characters that have reliable ability to get into the backline, have flanking patterns, and/or have high mobility. Having gone through the clothesline iterations on Karma, what is the conclusion for Karma as a champion? Does this mean clothesline will never see a place in her kit? And how did this validate or invalidate the statement the gameplay team made in 2013? To me, it just looks like the team tried a bunch of changes, felt like it didn't hit the mark, and just threw a towel over their backs said "welp". I like that you are communicating about the changes regarding Karma though. This is the first time we actually had a discussion on Karma where changes aren't being forced through and then communicated later on. It's definitely a step towards an improvement in terms of player communication and I think y'all deserve to know that. There's also one thing that I'd like to highlight, which is the constant emphasis on Karma being a backline mage. Which I don't see the entire playerbase talking about. In fact, I doubt any of us think Karma being a backline mage is that all important. If any, most mages are all backline mages, someone needs to get in to the fray like Ahri are probably mid-range mages, but nonetheless are all backline mages in that they sit back and throw spells to do damage. But I do think that the team having this perception that Karma is a backline mage is initially what caused them to classify her as an artillery mage, before being shifted over to a battle mage/enchanter hybrid. I wonder, have you guys ever thought about scrapping off the "backline mage" identity, because if any, it's not a very solid identity either way. Perhaps that's the reason why neither of you guys felt like the clothesline changes wasn't representative of a "backline mage".
Meddler (NA)
: So would I, changes to her though will be after the Worlds patch to avoid unnecessary risk of excessive buff or nerf.
Meddler, when are you going to make changes to Taliyah in such a way that she's a solid mid pick again? She's viable now, but certainly not a champion you will pick for Mid unless we're all underdog lovers. The changes to her Q have essentially shoehorned her in to a jungler and it's not fun to see people tell me a champion designed originally for mid is now optimally played jungler, and thus should follow in the footsteps of meta. What are your thoughts of gutting her roaming power - i.e.: a static 10-15% on Rock Surfing with current iteration of Weaver's Wall. Then bring back Q AoE? Ever since the loss of Taliyah's Q power, she's been relatively stiff to play, and there's no fluidity in using her Q. Can we see her being played as a teamfighting mage that roams just using her ultimate rather than shoving lanes at level 3 and then roaming? I'd love to see her power curve go in to late game and not early game.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Evenstar (OCE)
: Can we just revert Taliyah's AoE/Wave clear potential and nerf her roaming potential?
Jungle Taliyah is the worst role to have happen, suck it ma jungle mains.
Meddler (NA)
: Both are still a way out. Visual effects work on Liss has started, but is a rough draft. Once that's done we'll then need to get some audio done too to go with it. Karma's still at the testing different possibilities stage, so will be further out again. Expect we'll share details about Karma plans before they're live once we've got a direction we think's promising.
Do you mind sharing what directions is the team likely to take with Karma? Is a VGU one of the options considered, though at the bottom of it?
: Hello Meddler can we see liss and karma changes this patch or the next patch? and sorry for asking over and over every week but I love these champions so much and I want them to be good again have a great day :D
You gotta give time for the team, especially with the Karma changes. Keep rushing it and we might end up with another half assed update on Karma.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: We'll likely talk about Fizz at least after mid-season. The W I could see us adjusting potentially. The R power scaling by distance by contrast I think has done good things though (optimal play not being to just use your skillshot point blank as a non dodgeable CC).
So with Aatrox, Akali and Nunu all slated for updates. Are the remaining candidates after the trio Kayle & Morgana? Then following our heaven-hell duo, Karma? By the time you guys finish off the sisters, I'd imagine that's about 70% of the League roster modernized, updated and kept relevant for seasons to come. The only one I can think of there and then who needs more work, and could use more improvement is Karma. And you guys HAVE mentioned Karma needs work but never got around to specific dates, so why not? Judging from your update list, it does seem like there's a need to be done with the major ones first though.
: A retrospective on Karma's Lore
Thanks for putting this out. To be honest, I never knew Avatar Karma's lore would have garnered so much attention, for the right reasons. I'm happy to see that the entire Karma player base is actually NOT okay with the direction Karma is going. I'm not one for intricacy, and the recent lore updates have since made me stop reading their entries because everything is just too complicated and unnecessary to read. This post summarizes the direction the team went, and how they wanted to present Karma, and to be honest, even after reading the summary, I still don't feel positive nor happy about the way Karma went. So instead of being wishy washy about complicated lore and all, I'll just get straight to the point. Amongst all Karma lore that we had, easily the best one that I've enjoyed so far is Pre-Rework Karma's lore. It was clear, concise, enjoyable to read and easy to grasp. The lore itself could have been expanded further and modernized according to Riot's needs. The best identity Karma has had was to be young lady with a force of will, a pacifist who isn't afraid to fight the front lines with her comrades like you said. Design wise, everything ranging from kit to her voice lines carefully conveyed the fantasy of a champion whose power manifested in her resilience. > **For her devotion and charisma, Karma was made the figurehead of the Ionian resistance. She never compromised, and she shared every hardship with her people, even when it came to combat.** By tapping into her inner resilience, she discovered that she could bring great force to bear against her foes on the battlefield. Bolded words are the most inspiring part of the lore for me. This is the exact reason I clung entirely on to the Old Karma, and the very reason the new Karma had never left any form of fondness in me. The Old Karma had something going in her story, character and personality. I fell in love with Karma's character, and when she got reworked, I had none to love until Taliyah came along, because Taliyah embodied that strong will that Karma had, albeit with a bit plunky optimism that I didn't like. And Riot massively screwed up the lore since Rework Karma. Rework Karma was bland and just boring and they never expanded her story since then. I waited time after time, and yet didn't feel like Riot was putting in the effort, lore and gameplay wise. And yes, I'm still looking at you @RiotHunaan whatever your name is. Had the transition from old to new lore been smoother, I wouldn't be so upset with Hunaan. That girl never left an impression, she left as quickly as she came. The reason why I stopped reading Riot lores these days? The narrative team always needs to spice things up by giving a champion some dark, unseen side of them. They tried too hard to make everything far too realistic and should have just left some character fantasies untouched. For example, I particularly just enjoyed reading Ahri's lore as a nine tailed fox who wanted to be human and when she did, suffered guilt and remorse. I love that theme and wished Riot would have continued that path. Instead, what they had done was revamp the system by coming up with huge changes like Vastayans and shit and then giving Ahri a story about how she killed a man she was in love with. That to me was unnecessary depths, some might disagree with my perspective but that's what stopped me from reading the rest of League's lore, and it doesn't surprise me why the people who critic the lore are only a small group of people. The very same reason Karma's change in lore doesn't captivate much attention, not just because Karma had a small base to start with anyway, but also because Karma never quite left an impression with her reworked lore after that. Scathlocke saying inb4 is a good indication even Riot is tired of the shit we've been throwing at them, but again, when it comes to Riot, they have done zero stuffs for me to have faith in them. It feels like Scathlocke is just saying it in case someone comes along and says something that will put him in his place.
Mcsquzzy (NA)
: P should stay health, this way it can be prepped with w Q losing the ms is fine but putting the mana return here can be a good tradeoff for that safety net removed W needed the fixes E changes both yours and their ideas debatable, for me removing the damage and giving a 15% amp seems fair R this is a straight up buff, which i would prefer to avoid doing until the other changes are made but otherwise no complaints as someone who has SG, PS, Arcade and Foxfire ahri
I mean, mana issues for Ahri have always been a weakness of hers, I don't even know why they would attempt fixing her laning problems. Whether Essence denotes mana or soul, I'd rather have the passive stay as healing because it interacts with the rest of her kit too. The magic number 9 also resonates thematically on her passive. The entire community is so bogged up on having E deal %dmg amp that the entire changes revolve around it even though the goal from the balance team is to make W satisfying to use. Obviously, it's impossible to have the best of both worlds when dmg amp E and MS Q were equally frowned upon on rework.
Rioter Comments
: Wouldnt the R changes be a buff at rank 2 and 3? More dashes = more damage.
The numbers should be the same with an increase in dashes at rank 2 and 3, Ahri's damage is significantly higher if all 5 dashes hit 3 targets, but it's all on paper unless someone can prove Ahri will use 5/5 dashes in a teamfight for damage. Realistically speaking, you still want to reserve to 2 dashes to play safe. I still think the reduction in value will lower her overall power. Basically, good Ahris will now shine even more and subpar Ahris will suffer more too.
: PBE is testing 2 version of Ahri, let's vote which one we prefer.
If I'm being honest, both iterations suck. One iteration is reverting Ahri back to her 2014 self with nerfs, and the other is an overall power nerf for more mobility. The one thing I agree on is removing Q movement speed, the rest are just adjustment and fixes. Shifting power from her bases to provide hidden power in Spirit Rush. And W is still an overall nerf. That ability has been the go-to nerf in Ahri's kit whenever Riot talks about Ahri balance. Why not do something simple like... Remove Q speed, reduce W subsequent damage, lower E base and ratio, increase R ratio?
: Karma has a pretty low win rate vs other supports
To be honest, we should be happy Meddler hasn't spoken about that Karma rework so soon. I reckon it's because the team is deciding between a large update vs. a small update. Irelia's update should hit in May, so I assume Karma's will come along after that. The fact that they deliberately left the next update after Irelia empty goes to show they're putting a lot of thought in to the next rework. And given how silent they are about it, if it's Karma, I'm willing to assume its now a full scale update, which is good.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Yep, it was too strong. As above, that's one of the reasons we'll also be reassessing Olaf in January, see what he's using and how he's performing.
Meddler, can we talk about Karma's update that you hope to plan for the start of the year. As much as it is what the player base had hoped for, and I myself am personally excited about it. I figured a Karma update on the scale of Shyvana/Xin Zhao wouldn't suffice. There are two reasons why talks about Karma's update flared up, one being her kit designs didn't hit the mark, but the other lesser reason is that her character design wasn't as impressive either. It's not a commonly talked topic, but it is a factor of complaint in Karma's update. If you haven't planned anything solid for Karma yet, I believe it's still possible for the team to focus on another champion within the update roster before going back to Karma. It's just the order of the update has changed. I hope you take this in to consideration because we wouldn't want the design team or the player base to start pointing fingers at each other again. The last thing we need is to be told either the team or the player base didn't communicate well with one another and we're back at the same problem that popped up when Morello led the rework. It's just not going to be a pretty cycle if that happens again.
SanKakU (NA)
: That's what they told us about Sejuani, and look at what they did to her. She was my number one jungle champion. Karma might not be my number one anything, but there is plenty to work on to get better with her.
But her first rework didn't quite hit the mark, and subsequent updates caused her to stray further from her intended design. If anything, the Karma update is intended to correct her faulty rework from 4 years back.
SanKakU (NA)
: Why rework Karma when you could rework something that's broken. Don't Sejuani her, Riot.
Riot intends to update her because her current kit lacks skill expression no matter how well you play her, and yes, objectively is a bad design.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 10
@Meddler, please tell you have plans to help battle mages. All battle mages i.e.: Taliyah, Cassiopeia, Ryze have all suffered following the preseason patch. They're definitely not benefactors of the keystone runes. At least tell me you're going to tweak runes in a way that they favor the Battle Mages class too.
: Could you give examples of which mages you think feel horrible to play?
Currently? Taliyah, Cassiopeia, Ryze. Almost all battle mages are at the bottom.
Rioter Comments
: I think the original pets are the cutest, but I would love to see them all as figures.
Yes, yes, and yes again! I'm willing to buy the complete set x2 to collect them :D.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Offensive Azir E - Now scales with AP, generates a soldier on hitting an enemy champ (tentative mechanic, but testing well), shield duration lower. Karma - Still expecting we'll work on Karma, likely earlier part of next year. Pro versus regular play balance has been an issue with her balance wise, as has lack of a both sufficiently distinct gameplay identity and thematic delivery. Some form of gameplay update is likely, not planning a VGU or art overhaul however.
Will VGU or Art Overhaul for Karma change in time? Meaning to say even though now your current thoughts are that Karma may not need a VGU or art overhaul... that may change when you guys take a look at her. What sort of update are you expecting to work on when you get the chance to work on Karma. It's nice if you could share what abilities would you take a look at so that the rest of us Karma players can know what's likelier to change and what isn't. I for one think Karma deserves a second overhaul, after all you guys have been meddling with Ryze over seven times now. And Karma didn't get enjoy a quality overhaul.
: Would've been better to keep foxfire the same, but hit her Q mana cost and mobility. Her kiting and chase is just retarded atm and no number changes are gonna fix that.
You are right, numbers are not a simple solution to Ahri's balancing because her utility is what makes her strong at the moment. But I believe hitting her Q values will make her initial stages of combos much bearable. After than we can reassess her power and hit elsewhere. Foxfire is the part of her kit that doesn't need any further blame.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Ahri - From memory the two issues the team believe are most worth looking into are reliability of damage and early farming/waveclearing. Early game champs are often more mana than CD gated, especially when it comes to pushing, hence the consideration of higher Q mana costs. In terms of reliability the Q's much less reliable than W/R hence consideration of those for possible nerfs. If looking to reduce early safety or harass Q CD could be a thing to hit though certainly. Jhin - I'd expect Jhin to do poorly in a meta with BotRK as a really good early buy. We'll probably need to trim a bit off Blade which should help him a bit. Looks like we might have overhit the Lethality items as well, so might put a bit of power back in there at some point which, depending on what form that takes, might or might not help him out too. Morde - I'd be surprised if Morde getting XP off Relic shield kills by allies was enough to break him if it's not happening already. He's currently in a pretty stable spot though, which is tough with a kit like his, so wouldn't be inclined to take the risk without stronger reason. It's unintuitive and a bit feel bad however, so seems like a solid fix whenever we want to give him a little bit of extra power.
I don't know if you've noticed this, but W/R have consistently been the go-to abilities to be nerfed whenever Ahri is deemed too strong, don't you guys think it's been nerfed too much already? I'm all for nerfs, but at the rate we nerf Ahri, W/R values being toned every time her balance is concerned, they're just going to be a supplementary aspect of her kit. Why not nerf a majority of her base damage, but give her back her ratios? I don't mind if you gutted her W base by half, but nerfing the bases and not giving any ratio compensation doesn't solve the fact that her late game will be damaged too. Nerf Q's base damage while you're at it, but leave its ratios untouched. But you guys can't keep on nerfing W/R, I'm sensing a pattern here.
Saixos (EUW)
: Why I actually like the new Ahri splash art more than the old one
Thank you for summing up what I've been explaining to people who complained about her splash art changes since 2 years back. The only thing I personally don't like was how they modified her physical appearance to be slightly feral compared to a more humanoid appearance. But I guess it is meant to represent a part of her personality. It is true that her new art captures her identity of being a nine tailed fox more accurately. It's almost as if she's drawing you in by lulling you. The added effects of the trees and leaves swirling around her gives that dramatic effect that she is elusive and mysterious.
: Ahri and Syndra have nothing in common first and foremost Syndra takes a lot of mechanical skill to play properly against good players and in bad match ups. Ahri on the other hand, is extremely safe all around, and her kit is extremely forgiving when she does happen to make mistakes. Part of what makes a champion broken is when they do too many things too well. Ahri can burst like an assassin, sustain like a mage, bring hard cc to a team, roam, gank like an assassin, and escape like an assassin to. Other true mages like Lux, Syndra, Orianna etc have no escape whatsoever and can't use their ults defensively either. Don't compare Ahri to other true mages because she isn't like any one of them. She maintains all the advantages of both an assassin and a mage, unlike LeBlanc.
You're kidding me right? "Don't compare Ahri to other true mages" and then at end of the sentence "She maintains all the advantages of both an assassin and a mage." {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
: Were you around for Season 3? Because we don't talk about **that** Kassadin.
I was around during Season 3's Kassadin. THAT one is an abomination, Satan's offspring, worse than Satan himself ;-;.
Rioter Comments
: Who's more OP alone ?
To those of you who say Rakan is weak, you probably don't understand the full extent of his kit. Mobility is his raison d'etre, he's like the Ahri/Yasuo of supports, because all he needs is his mobility to get the job done. Understand how his E works, and everything else in his kit falls in line to make it work seamlessly. While lacking the safety Ahri has. Rakan boasts better mobility in fraction of seconds. This means he is extremely strong when you play around his mobility rather than his ratios. Those ratios are going to get nerfed, just watch and see. Riot probably gave him high ratios to start with because they predicted players will have a harder time mastering him. But his kit is straightforward for beginners to make a subtle impact. Mobility even after nerfs will always have a strong impact. Xayah on the other hand, just has high damage. Her ult is probably a bit too strong in that it provides invulnerability, but she's slightly above focal point of balance. The reason she's almost pick/banned now is only caused by the fact that Rakan is paired with her. When either one gets nerfed, the other suffers. Xayah is strong, but she has very clear weaknesses to capitalize like what the rest have mentioned. Probably Malzahar/Annie/Anti Dive supports will destroy Rakan in matchups. But Rakan basically excels at making plays against the rest. Squishy supports like Sona, Soraka, Janna, Karma, Zyra are peas to Rakan if he plays his cards well.
Rioter Comments
: @Riot - Banshee's Veil and Abyssal Sceptre
The fact of the matter is, I think lots of people do not like the switch. So the reasoning behind the stat and passive swap was that Riot wanted to make Banshee's a powerful alternative for mages towards spells, thus the spell block. But it also stems from the fact that they do not want a defensive item to provide offensive power too. To be honest though, I rather both items left untouched and the update team come up with new tank items that would supplement the full MR/AR build. As it stands now, Banshee's Veil and Abyssal Scepter are both situational items, WHICH IS GOOD. Because these two items are not dominating any classes. Other than that it really just makes no sense. And it goes against Riot's hatred for a passive or in their book, a boring lane without interactions. Making Banshee's a must have due to its unique passive now is going to make mid lane slightly stale. Let's not forget mid and close range sustain AP damage dealers as well.
Xavanic (NA)
: Malz can kite, brand can kite, vel can kite, lux can kite, ezreal can kite (hes built both ad and ap so he does count), viktor can kite....I can keep going if you like, and yes, all these mages kite on a very similar level to ahri and cass
I can't believe I'm reading this. I actually thought you knew what you were saying earlier on, but this.. The examples you give are mages who are efficient at spell weaving, and maintaining distance. They can kite, but are not considered on the succession of someone like Ahri & Cassiopeia. All kiters have some form movement speed to maintain distance. An immobile mage that throws spell in between running will still get gap closed by other champions, but a kiter will always remain slippery. And guess what? Someone like Ahri has an in built MS on her Q, Cassiopeia gets move speed from her Q, ADCs who kite typically have AS items like Runaan's or Phantom's, which conveniently gives you speed. What separates them apart from your standard mage that can kite? These guys deal substantial amount of DPS, their burst is lower. While the ones you mentioned above deal good burst damage.
Sasogwa (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Evenstar,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q8TsxnEj,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-31T06:12:17.169+0000) nor does it mean Ahri wins 54% of her matches. Uh, but if she has 54% winrate it means exactly that, doesn't it? http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/018/489/nick-young-confused-face-300x256_nqlyaa.jpg
I should have noticed that mistake earlier. The intended meaning is that Ahri does not win 54% of the games all by herself. You could factor in the elements of how well she fits in to most team comps and team members performing well.
Xavanic (NA)
: this was like 6 months ago, i have literally stopped playing mid until ahri gets addressed, no matter what i do she always wins the lane after she hits 6, no matter how hard she falls behind
I can share with you that I've had success murdering Ahris as Diana mid or Karma mid. And I also realized one thing, it doesn't seem like you were dodging a lot on your laning phases. I honestly think what helps at this point is to watch how pro players play Syndra vs. Ahri. You might pick up one or two things from there.
Xavanic (NA)
: I rushed a large rod, was working on a ludens echo, and i cant dodge her shit when shes ulting right in my face, she was fighting me in melee range and there was nothing i could do about it, after she got 2 kills i started focusing on an abyssal, but she already finished hers and started rushing ludens, at this point whenever i even showed my face in lane she rushed me with her ult and would burst me in a single rotation (Ult, w, e, q, Ult, Ult was the general rotation), her damage ramped up so fast after abyssal that even after i got negatron cloak, her q would chunk me for 20% on the first tick 25 on the second
I think you made the mistake of fully rushing Ludens. Usually what I do is get LNR, then focus on getting Fiendish Codex and completing Sorcerer's Boots + Morello. When you go Abyssal, you're basically not utilizing the item fully because Syndra is a long range mage who doesn't need to get close. A better alternative would be Rylai's or Liandry's. Even Zhonya in your case would be great. But having a Fiendish Codex and Morello by an extension goes a long way for Syndra, since she needs a lot of balls up. And also, if she starts beating you at the game, then it's time you play dirty too. Having tanks soak up her first rotation would really help too. Ahri getting Luden's first means she's planning to overwhelm you with the burst. But you getting Morello means having frequent poke from superior range, including farming. I'd like to play with you, but I'm unfortunately at the Asian servers... But I can tell you in my years of playing Ahri, going up against a Syndra is one of my most feared immobile matchups. Syndra 100-0ing you post 6 is a well known thing.
Xavanic (NA)
: It was 70 to 50 CS (Synda - Ahri) and killwise 2-0 (Syndra Ahri), no ganks, once she got negatron cloak she autowon the lane with sheer aggression, i couldn't do enough damage to burst her down, but with no dmg items her q was chunking me for nearly 20% on both ticks, factor in the rest of her kit and she would constantly kill me until it was 2-12 at 20 minutes
Learning to dodge Ahri's true damage is key. No matter who you play, be it a Zyra or Zed, avoiding true damage is simply key. I'm assuming you didn't bother rushing magic penetration when that Negatron Cloak came out. When Ahri builds negatron cloak, she's essentially rushing for Abyssal Scepter which means she won't be getting a large chunk of AP so soon. And she will depend on multiple pokes and rotation to take you down. Attrition. It's true mobility screws Syndra over and over again, but even in competitive settings, Syndra performs well against Ahri. If Ahri goes aggressive against you, then you ought to weigh if your pressure is stronger than her. At which point if it doesn't, then it becomes a game of defensiveness. Judging by your CS gap, you had a massive upperhand. Perhaps player skill is a factor in this case. What was your build path like before and after Ahri starting winning her lanes?
Xavanic (NA)
: Smart, poking at her when she was open, All ining ONLY if i landed my CC (was playing syndra) and she completely destroyed me
Were you ahead in CS? Was she actively backing away to the base? Did you keep lanes warded? Did she have help from her jungler? Syndra absolutely crushes Ahri at every stage of the game. Her range is way superior than Ahri's and her ult will almost always guarantee she goes down.
Xavanic (NA)
: Last time i was aggressive against ahri as anyone, she killed me 12 times before 20 minutes, once she picked up the first kill she killed me every time i got to lane, she does TOO MUCH DMG, like her burst is overall much easier to deal out then any other assassin, and her skills are up far more often then say someone like talon or kata And fyi, her q missle speed is WAYYYY to fast for mid elo to dodge, properly, like legit, its the fastest boomerang skill in the game from what i've seen
Were you being smart aggressive or dumb aggressive?
Evenstar (OCE)
: 9 points for you to read if you complain about Ahri.
Tarzeus (NA)
: Except when I ult as velkoz she dashes away to freedom... EVERY SINGLE TIME
But you didn't die did you? And you got more farm, yes?
Eedat (NA)
: "Kite mage" is a completely made up class. Most mages kite. Most ADCs kite. "must be strong because everything else got nerfed" Lol nope. Straight up BS. Has has a solid 52-54% win rate ***for over two years now*** http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ahri
You tell me which mage can kite on the level of Ahri and Cassiopeia and perhaps then I'll take you more seriously. Otherwise, I'm calling you BS on your post. Statistics make you look boring and and dumb. As Riot always says, "We're data informed, not data driven".
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Evenstar

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