IainG10 (EUW)
: If they cut CDR from mages, they need to take it from assassins and brawlers as well. You should have to choose between hitting often and hitting hard. Now to be fair, I am all for that. I just don't want to see assassins become even more oppressive (and remember, that will force more mages into supp, where they don't belong).
To be fair, CDR is actually overall less degenerate on Mages than it is on Assassins and Bruisers. Mages are overwhelmingly immobile, which at least gives them an exploitable weakness for some of their strengths. Even if they hit hard and often they tend to be easy to kill. The same thing cannot be said about bruisers and assassins.
: Point and click cc, which only a few champions have ex: {{champion:9}} {{champion:53}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:4}} and for roaming/travelling mobility ur pretty much screwed since {{item:3142}}{{item:3117}} gives massive amounts of out of combat movement speed
> [{quoted}](name=0cean Mann,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=GVdI78m7,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-10-20T03:30:31.535+0000) > > Point and click cc, which only a few champions have > ex: {{champion:9}} {{champion:53}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:4}} > > and for roaming/travelling mobility ur pretty much screwed since {{item:3142}}{{item:3117}} gives massive amounts of out of combat movement speed The issue with this is that point and click CC doesn't actually specifically work to counter mobile champs, it just punishes mobile and immobile champs equally, as opposed to the majority of things in the game which punish immobile champs more.
Meddler (NA)
: We'll likely add some power to Sejuani soon. Not sure which patch yet. We're not going to be doing much balance work to individual champs in 9.22 since preseason's just about to hit and we need to reassess everyone after that anyway. Possible we do do a few changes in 9.22 though and Sej would be one of the more likely candidates if so, given she's noticeably underperforming in solo queue and not meaningfully present in Worlds either.
Great, I'm ready for her to go back to being busted in pro play, again then get gutted to the point of being unplayable in soloqueue, again. Repeat ad infinitum. At some point you guys are just going to have to admit that her rework's a dumpsterfire. The same problems crop up over and over with no feasible ways to fix them. Sej needs more than just balance changes.
: First of all, I never said they were bad. They aren't great, but spellpen kind of makes them useless mid-late game. They are definitely okay in the early game, but not good by any means. Against one mage, sure. Against 3 of them?, 4?, it takes a very specific subsection of champions to become immortal. Maokai, Mundo, the like. I also completely disagree that it takes a Spirit Visage alone to invalidate a mage. If you are laning against someone who will buy a big MR item early on, you get Sorc Shoes, Morello, and sometimes an early Void Staff. But with the first two alone, you negate almost the entirety of Spirit Visage's MR. Yes yes. It's 4100g vs 2800, you can add Merc Treds in there, etc. etc. Frankly, if your damage profile is so heavily invested into one type of damage you deserve to lose, which is not even the case any more with all the penetration in the game.
Yeah, 3-4 mage teams that lack in AD is the best thing you can see as a tank player, and I'm speaking from experience here. They're exceedingly rare because they kinda suck against tanks. Stacking up Mercs, Adaptive, Spirit Visage and Warmogs lets you just ignore mages completely. You can round that out with Mask, Locket (which is pretty underrated in an AP heavy situation), Gargoyle's or situationally a QSS. Alternatively you can just stack on another HP item because most mages are really bad at dealing with large HP pools and moderate MR anyway. Also, Sorcs/Morello's gives 33 Mpen, Visage gives 55 MR. You're up 22 MR and 1300 gold in this scenario. Yes, they have extra AP from Morello's as a combat stat but you have extra HP and CDR from Visage. In every way this is a huge advantage to the tank player. As a tank player what I dread isn't AP comps due to lack of itemisation. The variety is low but the items power level is more than enough to deal with AP comps easily. The main issue is full or heavy AD comps. Armour itemisation is just woefully inadequate to deal with the damage that ADs can bring in League's current state.
: What do you guys want in a champion?
I want a coherent game philosophy across all champions which makes the game less bursty and more balanceable than it is now. Recent champions have been an affront to this. I'd actually prefer simpler champions that reduce the amount of bullshit in the game.
: ?? I mean at one hand people are sympathetic to Sej because she has low winrate in solo queue but good competitive showing and at the other hand {{champion:517}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:39}} get gutted and people still want them to get more nerfs (yes I agree some of them got buffed, but they are still a shell of their former self)
I'm certainly sympathetic towards Akali, Irelia and Aatrox. They all got garbage ass reworks in a similar vein to Sej.
Kazekiba (NA)
: Seju is far from boring (or even bad), and it wasn't that long ago they increased her E damage by ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY PERCENT
A 150% increase on an ability with low damage already doesn't do that much, It's not nothing but it won't make her a huge damage threat by herself. On the other hand, a 50% reduction on your main damage ability, her passive is a huge nerf. This pretty much insures that Sej's damage will be pathetic. Considering she was already a bad soloqueue champ before this change, she's hot garbage now.
Juice (EUNE)
: Sejuani is one of the most broken junglers in the game. It has nothing to do with 'pro' play. She is the most popular jungler in Diamond + elo and she's a tank , who are notoriously boring to play - that's a SIGN that she is overtuned. Stop whining , please. Just because your champion isn't flashy and doesn't get penta kills doesn't mean they can't be OP.
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/jungle/diamond You know we can actually look up stats for who the most popular jungler in high elo play is right? It's not Sejuani. She's not even close. The actual fact of the matter is that Sej is the 17th most popular jungler and she has the lowest winrate of all junglers in D+, that's all above her and all below her.
: Glacial Buff needs a nerf, BADLY
>Glacial buff, at 4 units, gives a 40% chance to stun, per auto. Ashe with double guinsoos VERY quickly reaches 3.0 attack speed. Ashe alone gives you at least 120% chance to stun per second, add in the other 3 units (more if you throw in two of a unit) and thats a whopping 240% chance to stun units per second, assuming a rough base of 1.0 attack speed per the other units without guinsoos. That's not how the maths for this works in the slightest. You can't just add independent events together like that, they multiply. The actual way to do this is 0.6x0.6x0.6=0.216 chance to not be stunned by an Ashe AAing you per second. This means that Ashe's odds of stunning you are actually 78.4%, not 120%. This is more logical anyway, as you can go a second without Ashe stunning you, even if the odds are not in favour of it.
Voldymort (EUNE)
: See Febos's comment where he adresses active accounts. I didnt think I needed to include it since it's there...
It doesn't really address active accounts because Lolalytics only has access to a sample of the games played on any given patch. We don't actually know what percentage of all games they're sampling. Add to that the fact that patches aren't always the same length, player behaviour shifts over the course of a year and Lolalytics' data not even going back a whole year and there's still a whole lot of issues with attempting to use this data. Ideally what we'd want if we were taking games played as a metric would be some discrete length of time across different years. IE. we'd want the games played in June of 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015 and as far back as we can get data for. To my knowledge there isn't a site that keeps non-sample data going back this far, I don't even think it's possible to create one with Riot's API. The total number of players always sees spikes at certain times and dips at others, for example players tend to be high at the start of the year due to the preseason/season start and somewhat high towards the end due to the end of the season (for ranked) but dip during the middle of the year. This makes patch to patch comparison worthless, we need year to year.
Voldymort (EUNE)
: the "League is dying" argument
There's an inherent flaw to the logic you're using. Inactive accounts are still counted unless they're removed, which only happens to sub level 30 accounts. We don't know how many of the 24,528,211 accounts on EUW are simply sitting inactive. We can't say whether the increase in inactive accounts over the course of 2018 would be less than, equal to or greater than the 2166206 new accounts created or even what fraction of these new accounts are active. Even within your statistics it is still entirely possible that there is a decline occurring. Your statistics do not say anything about player engagement, rather they simply approximate the number of players who have ever played League up to that point. It is almost impossible for this number to decrease due to how infrequent deletion of accounts is. To actually judge if League is in decline or not we'd have to use statistics that told us something about the current playerbase's engagement. These could be stats such as the number of games played compared to this time last year or ideally the number of active accounts compared to this time last year. To my knowledge we do not have statistics that can tell us this.
: Neither player numbers nor revenue are the only measurements of success. :)
As far as anyone on the business side of Riot is concerned, the most important factor of success is revenue and the second most important factor is probably player counts.
: Yea * Mikael's crucible is in need of a rework. Overly ping reliant and can be made to better work for players of all skill levels * Ohmwrecker - tower disable hasn't proven to be a healthy mechanic and the item has nearly 0 users currently * Wit's end was this recently - if our 9.7 changes don't give it a more used niche it would fall in here Some opportunities that we would like to pursue with freed up space * More choice and options in lethality builds * An ap bruiser / ap melee item * All around cleanup of support items, get some more choice in there and dont force players into 5 actives in one build
>Mikael's crucible is in need of a rework. Overly ping reliant and can be made to better work for players of all skill levels What if the active was changed to be something like "Cleanse a CC off the nearest CCed ally" and Crucible put some sort of particle that the owner could see over their ally who will be affected should they activate the item? It would make it weaker in the pro-game case due to limitations being put on the item's active but easier to use effectively due to a visual indicator reminding you of its existence.
: The most accurate is just using the exact formula that *League* uses: * If Resist >= 0: **Damage x (100 / (100 + Defense))** * If Resist < 0: **Damage x (2 - 100 / (100 - Defense))** So if you're dealing 1283 damage into 37 MR, you're dealing 1283 x (100 / (100+37)), or 936.5 damage. Your numbers off for a bit for reasons I'm not sure of. Probably math. Note, however, that this is the *same* as having 27% effective health: both formulas, when properly calculated, return equivalent damage values needed to kill you. Watch: * Effective Health = **Health x ( 1 + (0.01 x Resist))** So with 1000 health and 100 resist we'd be looking at 2000 effective health. Let's test that with the formula above for damage: **2000 = [Damage] x (100 / (100 + 100)).** That gets us **1000 (health we have) = [Damage] x 0.5**, which means we need 2000 damage to kill us. That's *exactly* what our 2000 effective health calculation indicated, and what the **100 MR = 100% more effective health** would indicate. So the secret is they're *both* right! **MATH!**
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=56FPsrQg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-21T12:05:26.521+0000) > > The most accurate is just using the exact formula that *League* uses: > > * If Resist >= 0: **Damage x (100 / (100 + Defense))** > * If Resist < 0: **Damage x (2 - 100 / (100 - Defense))** > > So if you're dealing 1283 damage into 37 MR, you're dealing 1283 x (100 / (100+37)), or 936.5 damage. Your numbers off for a bit for reasons I'm not sure of. Probably math. > > Note, however, that this is the *same* as having 27% effective health: both formulas, when properly calculated, return equivalent damage values needed to kill you. Watch: > > * Effective Health = **Health x ( 1 + (0.01 x Resist))** > > So with 1000 health and 100 resist we'd be looking at 2000 effective health. Let's test that with the formula above for damage: **2000 = [Damage] x (100 / (100 + 100)).** > > That gets us **1000 (health we have) = [Damage] x 0.5**, which means we need 2000 damage to kill us. That's *exactly* what our 2000 effective health calculation indicated, and what the **100 MR = 100% more effective health** would indicate. > > So the secret is they're *both* right! **MATH!** This is all correct, where most people tend to go wrong with E/HP calculations I think is that they forget that after performing the calculation the number left over is effective HP, not actual HP. This is the error the OP makes in his calculation. The enemy wouldn't have 113 HP left, they'd have 113 E/HP left. To get it back to actual HP you'd have to divide by the original multiplier you applied. So the actual remaining HP would be ~82.
: > [{quoted}](name=AeroWaffle,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=50aB6GbJ,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-18T02:33:18.618+0000) > > It's not extortion, it's common courtesy. Often seen as an insult when you fail to tip. When you insult someone it's not an unknown occurrence that they get back at you in some way. Except there are many places in the world where it's actually considered rude to tip. In Japan, for example, people are taught that a job well done is its own reward, and there have been cases where employees will actually follow foreign customers out of the restaurant to return their money if they tip. Tipping in many Asian cultures is considered disrespectful to the server. Why is it "required" in the West? Because capitalism necessitates it, and nothing else.
> [{quoted}](name=L Psy Congroo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=50aB6GbJ,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-18T02:38:27.874+0000) > > Except there are many places in the world where it's actually considered rude to tip. In Japan, for example, people are taught that a job well done is its own reward, and there have been cases where employees will actually follow foreign customers out of the restaurant to return their money if they tip. Tipping in many Asian cultures is considered disrespectful to the server. Why is it "required" in the West? Because capitalism necessitates it, and nothing else. Correction, it's not required in the west, it's required in the US. I worked as a pizza driver in Australia to help pay my way through uni and I was earning 15 AUD an hour, not a great wage but it's OK for what I was doing at the time. I did sometimes get tips but I never actually needed them. This isn't an inherent problem of capitalism, to be clear I don't like capitalism very much in the first place but this is very much an issue of rampant corporatism rather than capitalism itself. In other western countries waiters, drivers and other professions get paid at least minimum wage (in theory, I was slightly below but I never needed more so I never complained) and tips are just a bonus on top of that.
: Shyvana currently has a 2% Play Rate. Stat sites reset their counters today. Champion.GG has tracked 5512 games. Lolalytics has tracked 27,220 games. The BUILDS that are using AP are tallying up to 14,556. That's more than significant. If you're talking about the fact I'm posting Plat +, I can't really easily break down lower tiers, because stat sites are not tracking overall among all ranks. Below Plat they segregate them. https://na.op.gg/champion/shyvana/statistics/jungle Even puts AP at 58-63%, and they don't segregate.
What stats are you reading? Her highest winrate first item is Red Smite/Bloodrazor, ignoring the outlier 0.8% pickup rate Titanic Hydra. Looking at items bought more than 1% of the time as first items the order is Red Smite/Bloodrazor(53.94%)>Blue Smite/Bloodrazor(53.87%)>Blue Smite/Runic(52.19%)>Nashor's(52.17%)>Red Smite Runic(46.14%) Her highest winrate builds are also traditional Shyvana builds. All of her high winrate items are AD or tank items other than Meiji's, Deathcap and Spellbinder, 3 win more items you wouldn't even consider unless you were already winning. It seems to me like traditional Shyv is doing a whole lot better than AP.
Zerenza (NA)
: He reveals himself the second he roar's, i can understand having to target him, as with vayne condemn but i don't play champions that have targeted abilities so i usually just point my mouse and click a button. Though i will add that you can kind of deduce what direction he's in because of the fact his R puts a marker on the nearest enemy and it does have a limited range, i think that's pretty helpful to prepare for him jumping on you since if your prepared for it you can react a lot faster. Also i should add that Rengar's jump takes .5 seconds to complete, during which he is completely unable to perform any action(except prep his Q) so even though the burst itself will come out in .2 seconds(give or take based on how fed he is or isn't.) and i think that .7-1 seconds is pretty okay since you probably also have about 2 seconds to prepare for it before hand when his R gives you that mark on your head.
He reveals himself when he roars, which tells you that he's there, not where he's coming from. You can't target anything based on auditory information unless the only thing that matters is the timing. So you can use the roar to queue up something like a flash or Ezreal's E, but not something like an Ashe arrow, Zyra snare, Condemn or Cocoon. As for ascertaining his general direction and using that, there's niche cases where it's useful. If you have a spell with a wide arc which covers a fairly large area to ensure you can hit the general direction can be good enough, but these spells are typically fairly rare in the first place. The few I can think of not tied to ultimates on someone Rengar is likely to target are Syndra's E, which often isn't going to be used to knock back without a stun anyway, it's really a last resort to do that and Annie's W, which is a conditional stun. Generally speaking reacting with anything other than a mobility spell via sound alone isn't an option. >and i think that .7-1 seconds is pretty okay since you probably also have about 2 seconds to prepare for it before hand when his R gives you that mark on your head. That literally only matters if you're casting a mobility spell, if you're not then you still have to find and target Rengar in all but niche cases. >Also i should add that Rengar's jump takes .5 seconds to complete .5 is still just above human reaction time. That means if you don't react instantly Rengar kills you. It's also worth noting that by flashing before his jump he can actually make it unreactable. I think a majority of players would agree that this isn't OK. The punishment for reacting 0.2 seconds too slowly shouldn't be instant death. This is why Rengar is so overwhelmingly hated by pretty much everyone who doesn't play him and why he's honestly one of if not the worst designs in the game.
Zerenza (NA)
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzIuZudzESo Visual Reaction Time and Auditory Reaction Time are different from eachother. In this video there's a tiny test for your reaction time inside of it, here's what i got. .185 MS Visual and .083 Auditory. In league of legends there's a large number of sounds you can listen to that would help you react to a multitude of things; for example, rengar's Roar when he leaps at you, comes out at the beginning of his jump almost the exact millisecond that he reveals himself. I'v gotten pretty dang good at flashing that shit, or landing a skillshot before he even finishes the jump because all i have to do is press 1 button right after i hear that roar. There's more examples but i feel like Rengar's is the most helpful. I should add that my ping is 63 usually, so we have to add 63 to 185 so 248 with visual and .146 with auditory. My mouse and keyboard have almost no delay so i'm gonna go with it's negligible but i think i have plenty of time between rengar's jump and the damage portion of the jump in order to prevent myself from getting popped, assuming i have the tools necessary to do so.
Nice theory, but Rengar doesn't give auditory warning of which direction he's coming from. There's no way to use the audio queue to align your mouse over him in order to react to him at all. The roar is only useful for allerting you to him, in order to actually react properly to him in any way other than a pre-mediated flash in a random direction, IE to do something like Condemn him as Vayne you actually need to wait the full visual reaction time. Also worth noting, .185 is a very quick visual reaction time, the last time I took one of those tests I was at about .2 and I'm still well above average. The average reaction time is .28, add your 63 ping to that and you're looking at .34 seconds before you can make a meaningful reaction to Rengar. The issue is he can be on top of you in less time than that and burst you in fractionally more time.
: It should just be like other forums where replying to a topic bumps the thread to the top. That way stuff that's actually being discussed is always bumped to the top.
OK, then you can sort by recent. There's really no reason to remove an optional piece of functionality for people who like using them, which is what Hot/Best sorting were. Their existence does not stop anyone from sorting by recent.
0XFallen (EUW)
: Not really when CC and stopwatch exist in this game, adc shouldnt be alone anyway. That and the new PD gives a massive shield and adcs are again stronger against squishies
OK, but everything you just bought up BotRK/extra AS actually helps to deal with. It's more likely that you'll still have something useful to contribute after ulting if you have persistent DoT, meaning Zhonya's is a worse counter into Zed, it's value is already massively overestimated anyway since Zed's R is on about half the CD of Hourglass making it a R for Hourglass trade in Zed's favour as long as you can get away, which you should be able to since you only really need to press R again unless you really fucked up. Extra DoT also helps to break that shield anyway, that one shouldn't need explaining. This isn't theoretical. Zed has had a higher base AS before. When his AS is high he can outduel fighters and kill them with his R, he can deal significant damage to tanks, bursting well over half of their HP if he can AA for the duration of his mark and he still destroys squishies just as hard as he currently does despite all these strengths. It's just a bad idea.
0XFallen (EUW)
: Zed pbe changes opinions?
We've tried Zed with more AS before, he builds BotRK and combines the passive with his R multiplication to shred Tanks/Bruisers while combining the active with his R to burst squishies easy. Changes are about as dumb as I expect from Riot at this point TBH.
: > [{quoted}](name=FioraWillCarry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YYRHGRqT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-09T15:53:15.483+0000) > > Why even bother farming the jungle. Even with 2 full clears uninterrupted you'll still barely be the same level as the support with only slightly more gold. Might as well just gank non-stop or do "supporty" things. The jungle is shit this season compared to previous seasons. and how exactly do you gank and camp lanes as yi?
You don't, that's why Yi and all other farming junglers fucking suck right now.
Sukishoo (NA)
: At this point it'd be another rework not a revert since they don't keep those assets this long. Plus she just got a new skin that didnt previously exist on the old kit, that'd be a lot of resources they are probably using for other things right now.
Visually the rework barely changed Sej. So far as I know she has two new animations and only a few unused ones from her old state. In fact, I'm pretty sure that even with minimal effort the new skin would end up looking better with the old animations, considering one of the new animations is her spine snapping W. No matter how you look at it a rework is far more work than a revert though.
DaBooosh (NA)
: Sejuani is VERY fun to play{{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} We love this champion riot!
You have one Sej game in your match history and seem to have never played her in ranked. Excuse me if I don't take this comment particularly seriously.
Latarnia40 (EUNE)
: Champion without autoattacks
I remember Riot saying somewhere that when he was first in development Ivern not only had no auto attack, but no damage at all. Apparently it felt horrible to chase someone with no way to kill them whatsoever however, so Riot dialled back on this a bit to leave Ivern with a low but still existent amount of damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=kingDeDeDarius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xyJyeG5B,comment-id=00050002,timestamp=2019-01-21T15:03:11.711+0000) > > We all understand the math...you just don't understand the impact of 20%...and the fact that you have the audacity to insult everyone and basically call them idiots for pointing out how broken red smite is...just wow Sure I don't understand at all. Jungle main, played mostly Nunu and had a 60% and higher win rate the entire season. I currently have a 64% win rate playing Riven Jungle. Oh and before you have the audacity to say it's because of red smite, I don't upgrade my Jungle item. Do you know why? Because the Jungle items are literally garbage. They are weak, they don't scale into the game, and outside of the 350g to get the EXP bonus, there's absolutely no reason to buy them when they're worse versions of other items. I've played 50 games on the new account I just made, starting from Iron 4, I'm sitting around 1750 MMR. Just made it into Silver the other day, and I currently have a 60% win rate so far. You can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm trash, whatever. I've been playing against Gold players since Iron I, and I'm still winning consistently. A few matches ago I went 23/2/6 as a Riven Jungle. So yes. I do think that anyone who believes Challenging Smite to be broken a complete idiot. It's not broken at all, there's absolutely nothing special about it. Do you know what's broken? How about this item: {{item:3812}} Do you know what the global win rate on that item is as of this patch? It's 57.0%. It's one of the highest win rates of any item in the entire game currently. I don't see anyone on these boards complaining about it however. Do you know why? Because the people on these boards are just clowns complaining about anything they lose against. I don't care if that feels insulting to you, it's the truth. Almost none of the posts on these boards use real statistical data to back their claims. They're all posting about things making them rage and hoping others will hop on the band wagon. So yes, once again, I think most of the players on these boards are complete idiots.
You realise the passive effect of Death's Dance is literally to delay 30% of all damage taken. Not a significantly higher amount than the 20% on Red Smite and unlike Red Smite you still take damage after the smite wears off. That's before mentioning Red Smite is only 650 gold once you factor in the 350 you have to spend on a jungle item anyway while Death's Dance is 3500 gold meaning you wait a significantly longer time than Red Smite to get any defensive benefit. Sure, the defensive benifits from Red Smite are lower than Death's Dance (unless you build Cinder from it) but it also costs only 1k gold, less than 30% the price of a Death's Dance, even less when you factor in the price of your starting item. Its power comes primarily from early game, where you'll likely either be targeting one person or have 1-2 people targeting you. In the first case it adds more damage than any other item you could spend 650 gold on with a few edge cases, Riven is actually one of these where her AD ratios are high enough that two longswords can be better if you land enough AAs, but even there the defensive benifits of Red Smite put it over the edge in most cases. The simple fact is in the early game 140-200 true damage is a lot and it's hard to get that sort of damage out of items. Additionally a 20% DR makes or breaks duels, if you have say, 800 HP in a theoretical situation and your opponent's combo deals 500 damage + they AA for 75 then without red smite they kill you in 4 AAs, if you Red Smite before their combo it takes them at least 6 AAs even if no reduction is applied to a single AA. That's extremely significant. >Do you know what the global win rate on that item is as of this patch? It's 57.0%. It's one of the highest win rates of any item in the entire game currently. People only buy Death's Dance when they're winning. That's why. If you're losing you're more likely to take an item that's less expensive or a defensive choice to try to avoid being knocked out of the game. Of course Red Smite has a significantly lower win rate. It's a standard choice for almost every if not every champion in the jungle. If both junglers buy an item in almost every game it inherently stabilises at a 50% winrate since one has to win and one has to lose. Just posting stats isn't enough, you also have to understand how to interpret stats. It's rarely as simple as 'the best thing has the highest winrate' unless we're talking about specifically champions who are really out of line. Even in the case of really overpowered items they tend to be close to 50% winrate since there's a high chance that both teams will build them. Niche items designed to make you win a game you're already winning harder will get the best winrates while items designed to stop you losing games you're already losing will get the worst simply because most players will only buy them when they're already winning or losing respectively, and the fact that they're already winning or losing has a bigger effect on the game than the items themselves.
Zerenza (NA)
: To be fair, Shadiversity did make a good point when he mentioned the...Crotch armor of men during very specific ages. I agree with him that if we lived in a world where women fought more throughout history, it would be no surprise that armor that accentuated the female figure would exist. Since men made armor to accentuate their figure's...even if i think having a gigantic bell covering your private part isn't really a good idea and probably would cause more harm that good if you were to smack that piece with a mace or something. Edit: I agree with all your points though, its probably not functional, i mean if you made it out of Steel, it's still steel plating even if the Boob plate directed towards the sternum. A sword wouldn't pierce that plate. Sure, boob plate isn't the best but it's still plausible and advances in technology are what created the "Best" armor, in a world where women fought more, i can definitely see boob plates existing and then being phased out for better alternatives.
>even if i think having a gigantic bell covering your private part isn't really a good idea and probably would cause more harm that good if you were to smack that piece with a mace or something. It actually wouldn't. It would cause about the same damage to be hit with a mace regardless of what steel armour you were wearing. That's the entire point of a mace, it's designed to do more damage to someone wearing solid plate armour than a sword. What the crotch plate does is it adds an area where someone could potentially poke a sword or polearm through. It's still pretty unlikely someone would target there VS an area like the shoulder gap which is far easier to hit, which is of course why people still did it.
: Reminder: Karma Update is Still Supposedly Going to Happen Even After the Extreme Criticism
Not surprised. Sejuani mains pointed out all the faults in that shitty rework before it went live and it was still rammed through with minimal changes. I'm not as active with other champs but I'd be exceptionally surprised if this wasn't the case. Riot's reworks as of late have been abysmal and their complete failure to take feedback from them is even worse.
Meddler (NA)
: Galio - Overbuffed so hard at present to tell whether the changes reduced his pro versus regular play gap, given he's just the right choice everywhere. Should get a clearer read after the 9.2 nerfs. Sejuani - Too early to say. Seeing her get pro play already, not sure if it'll be a healthy amount or not. Her performance in regular play seems around appropriate. Ornn - Missed the mark on power initially at least, though there's a moderate amount of relearning curve and his play rate tripled post changes which tends to depress average performance for a while until new players learn the champ or go back to playing other things. Going to add a little bit of early power (base hp and armor) in 9.2, then reassess where adaptation plus those stats leaves him in both contexts.
>Sejuani - Too early to say. Seeing her get pro play already, not sure if it'll be a healthy amount or not. Her performance in regular play seems around appropriate. If Sejuani does go back to being a busted champ in pro play can finally just call her rework a fucking failure? This shit has happened over and over since her rework, whenever she's remotely usable in ranked play she's busted in pro. Old Sej wasn't like this. It should be clear at the point this happens again that the rework is a problem.
: Need to be careful with external sites when it comes to reporting the current day - there tends to be weird things with how the data gets parsed. See below for an example on Cass - her winrate certainly didn't plummet to 44% today. https://imgur.com/5pnaFmu The image below is what we're seeing in regards to her winrate increase at high mmr (plat+). https://i.imgur.com/rC5edyD.png Can't for the life of me get those images to work inline with the post, but if you hover over them you can see em.
Question, if Vayne, a high skill champion was already at a 50% winrate why the fuck was she even getting buffed? Doesn't a champion who's meant to be hard to play being at a 50% winrate show that they're already really strong?
: I made a thread about this buff some days ago. The entire thing is filled with ADC mains saying its just a small buff and it wouldn't make her overpowered at all because she is still squishy and short ranged. How they don't understand you don't need survivability if you are perma invisible and that you don't need range when you have perma mobility/dashes is beyond me. Can't wait to make another thread showing her winrate skyrocketing through the roof to show them how dumb they are.
Well, yeah. [She's already up to a 54% WR 1 day post the patch.](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Vayne/ADC/) It could still shift around, but it goes to show how little of an idea Riot's balance team actually has.
: I think it is baiscally official that the Akali rework is an unfixable failure.
It's not like Riot's track record on recent reworks has been glowing. Irelia, Sejuani and Zac have all been problematic in the exact same way. Busted mechanics that will never see balance, their old kits preferred by mains, banrates through the roof while usable in soloqueue with Sej and Zac at the next stage where they've been gutted to the point of just being garbage. Riot's rework team really need to stop and evaluate their failures. They won't however.
Moody P (NA)
: Wouldn't adjusting damage also adjust the flow of the game? I can't see how it wouldn't
Of course it would. If you take the most common suggestion of significantly increasing the power of defensive stats early and nerfing the early burst output of keystones there'd be several flow-on effects to gameplay, just off the top of my head * All ins are disincentivised, short trades are more favourable as it's harder to turn around and punish properly. * Junglers clear healthier, meaning ganks are more favourable. Early jungle power would almost certainly need to be toned down. * Fights are far more likely to end indecisively, meaning the average time to take a Drake or tower will go up. * Assassins and kill based supports see a large drop in power while immobile mages, ADCs and enchanters are large beneficiaries. * %pen becomes generally more valuable while lethality and flat MPen are generally a little worse. Those are just the points for how flow and strategic choices such as champ select and itemisation would be impacted off the top of my head, I'm sure I missed plenty. It would be impossible to change something as fundamental as early damage without impacting game flow. Personally I don't see this as a problem since I think game flow is generally still pretty bad.
: That's 1min10 lost every game. Since there are 1 to 3 dodges every game that's a flat 3min added to every game played. I already spend too much time on the client and not enough actually playing the game, so, no, thanks. Also 10 seconds is extremely short with they buggy client taking sometimes like 3-4s to let you select a champion.
It can be cut down to 1 minute flat from 1:40 by banning in the same 1-2-2-2-2-1 pattern as picks. If you're willing to go more extreme and ban in a 2-3-3-2 pattern it can be cut down to 40 seconds, only 10 above the current ban system. It really doesn't take much thought at all to solve this issue.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tormentula,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QQRuNxEr,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-11-17T03:01:04.656+0000) > > I get they didn't intend this game to be competitive and to appeal more casually, but you can make a pokemon game appeal to casuals without dumbing it down with removing matchmaking, removing core mechanics of the game like battling wild encounters, introducing the ability to flee trainers, and gutting several movepools. Not to mentioned the recent pokmeon games already being dumbed down enough.
> [{quoted}](name=Colonel J,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QQRuNxEr,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-11-17T04:21:25.462+0000) > > Not to mentioned the recent pokmeon games already being dumbed down enough. That's somewhat of a double edged sword, in terms of the main game the games have been dumbed down quite substantially over the last two generations, most notably the Sun/Moon/US/UM series. In terms of the competitive scene the addition of Z-moves was actually pretty great for the game. New moves, abilities and held items have made Pokemon you wouldn't even think of using in gen 5 completely viable. This is before mentioning Fairy type, which made Pokemon like Gardivior and Azumaril considerably better and the introduction of Megas, both of which were great for the competitive scene. While I agree the last two gens have been pretty underwhelming in terms of actual in game content with the only exceptions being ORAS (which were still hurt by the lack of a battle frontier) the competitive battling scene has benefited from new mechanics from the games greatly.
Meddler (NA)
: Overgrowth - Needs better control over its scaling for non health builders versus health stackers. % increase was only good on health stackers. A flat version we'd tested internally was terrible on health builders when balanced for non health builders however. Going for a mixture of the two effects as a result. Bone Plating - Want to create better choices in first and second row, and control number of defensive effects that can be stacked, especially given addition of flat mitigation stats in rune stats. Aiming to have the first row be more about effects that benefit from your defensive abilities/stats, rather than straight up survivability as a result. Second row by contrast's very much a 'what style of defense do you need', with Bone Plating an anti burst, especially in lane, option.
>Aiming to have the first row be more about effects that benefit from your defensive abilities/stats, rather than straight up survivability as a result Could you at least aim to make one rune which isn't completely worthless on jungle tanks? They're not in lane often enough to want demolish, they're not around other champs often enough to justify FoL and they generally don't have shields. Every choice on this row is shit for champs like Sej/Zac/Amumu.
Häxel (EUW)
: It is funny as how Sejuani and Zac got shifted in opposite ways and people want a revert seem also ahve diffrent dieas of balance as riot: Zac before Rework: Bunch of Damage Zac now: Bunch of CC, less Damage, harder to balance Sejuani pre and kinda post rework: Bunch of CC, CC got shifted from places and post rework got harder to balance What riot wants to do now similar as they want to do to Ornn and makes people sceptical: Decrease the CC, increase Dmg {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} {{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}} {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
You think Sejuani didn't have higher damage pre rework than now? Just look at her old W. >Sejuani's next AA deals 6% of her enemies max HP as magic damage in an AoE. After this Sejuani deals 40+3% of her max HP/S as magic damage for 4 seconds in an AoE around her. Total damage, 160+6% enemy HP+12% Sejuani's HP. Nothing on Sej's new kit can output that kind of damage to a single target, let alone in an AoE. Sej's damage seems higher to play against, because it's all burst damage now, something the changes on the PBE made even worse. In actuality her damage was much higher pre rework, just spread out over time and over multiple targets. The Sej and Zac reworks both changed the champs in very similar ways, they sacrificed damage over time for more immediate burst damage and more CC.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h2QFr4xl,comment-id=001e00000000,timestamp=2018-11-08T14:34:56.907+0000) > > To make it even more confusing they're now removing Sejuani's hard CC, which is the last remaining part of her old identity sans her Q even if it's insanely bastardised and replacing it with burst damage. I want to know who's thinking of these changes, because they're honestly just baffling. Wait, they’re removing the hard CC? I thought the duration was just reduced? They’ve lost touch with what defines some of these champions. Sejuani, Azir’s original design, Ornn (and Ornn’s designer has been involved with this *disappointed sigh*). It’s a shame. I know I butted heads with you a while ago about her rework, but after trying her again recently in an aram, seeing this, and going through similar with Ornn, I now understand.
You're right that it's just being reduced, poor choice of words.
: > [{quoted}](name=TheGreatTeacher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h2QFr4xl,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2018-11-08T14:11:34.037+0000) > > "Tanks excel in shrugging off incoming damage and focus on disrupting their enemies more than being significant damage threats themselves. > > _Vanguards are offensive tanks. Vanguards lead the charge for their team and are specialize at getting action started. Their explosive team fight initiation seeks to catch enemies out of position while allowing allies to follow-up to devastating effect." > _ > > Source: [https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses) > > Riot has even gone on record pushing the idea of CC and engage over damage. I understand these things change over time and development teams want to experiment but fundamentally changing a character, counter-intuitive to its core design, is obviously going to be met by dissatisfaction. > > I understand that bruisers, assassins, and mages are fun and flashes, and the playerbase doesn't like feeling like they don't do any damage or being cc'd, but tanks are a core class and need to keep their identity. Agreed fully. This is part of why I’m so against the Ornn changes. In the case of Sejuani, i think she was less a vanguard and then got turned into one with insane CC and damage in her stun and shatter, locked behind a gimmick. According to her mains, sacrificing high durability for more dps was her old self, which Riot didn’t like and is now ironically giving to Ornn as an identity. They swapped the two. There can be room for things like old Sejuani as a unique thing, but it shouldn’t be all tanks. Control and defense, not damage.
>According to her mains, sacrificing high durability for more dps was her old self, which Riot didn’t like and is now ironically giving to Ornn as an identity. They swapped the two. To make it even more confusing they're now removing Sejuani's hard CC, which is the last remaining part of her old identity sans her Q even if it's insanely bastardised and replacing it with burst damage. I want to know who's thinking of these changes, because they're honestly just baffling.
Ifneth (NA)
: AP Sejuani, anyone? {{item:1402}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3089}} ~560 AP. 20% CDR. 38 + 40% MPEN.
Almost certainly better to go tanky AP. Something like {{item:1401}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3047}} You could try straight AP, I doubt it would really work though.
: Riot needs to evert sejuani, revert zac and stop fucking their mains over because they have botched their fking reworks by loading them with additional CC. They've crushed 6 tanks purely for pro play. Sejuani: Q, W unchanged. E and R reverted. Her W is more enjoyable and interesting than press for 4 seconds of AOE Zac: revert ult. Potentially keep Q as it is similar to sej W in that it's interesting in a good way. But potentially remove because his old Q did top lane better and wasn't a balance problem
>Sejuani: Q, W unchanged. E and R reverted. Her W is more enjoyable and interesting than press for 4 seconds of AOE I'd prefer just to see a full revert. New W is a super clunky ability that feels terrible to use. It also has next to no power on it other than being capable of procing E, compared to her old W which was actually a pretty strong ability.
Moody P (NA)
: Sejuani - Please, god, not like this
Riot has truly no clue with this rework. They're just throwing shit at the wall and hopping it sticks. Hopefully they can just admit they fucked up and revert her soon.
Squad5 (NA)
: For now I'd like to test out sharpening his identity as a higher damage and CC but lower durability tank. It's definitely possible that something might need to be added back onto the kit - and it could just be placed somewhere else that gives more play for the enemy.
Wow, that sounds a hell of a lot like Sejuani's old identity before you guys ~~butchered~~ reworked her. If you're admitting it's OK for tanks to have higher damage, high CC and low durability can you hurry the fuck up and put the Sejuani rework in the garbage where it belongs? A revert is well overdue.
Ralanr (NA)
: Given Sejuani’s history, a revert wouldn’t help her with the pro play problem.
That's simply not true. Old Sej was never in Pro play and balanced or weak in solo queue. The only time she was ever played professionally was around 2015 when her winrate in solo queue was [around 58-54% while she was being played](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sejuani). Old Sej was always a better champion in solo queue than pro play.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 31
Any chance we could get a comment on Sejuani? A few months back you said she'd likely need work done on her after worlds but we've not heard anything since. She's in a terrible state which renders her one of the worst choices in almost any imaginable context in Solo Queue at present and it just feels terrible as a Sej player to have her left in this state after having a rework which no Sej main really wanted and was quite frankly just bad forced down our throats.
: I mean most champions that want it....will take it. Literally only tanks are going to primary resolve and they ALL want something from that row.
>Literally only tanks are going to primary resolve and they ALL want something from that row. What do I run as Sej, Amumu, Rammus or Zac? All the choices are crap. I don't push enough for Demolish to be good, I'm not in lane enough for Font to be good and I don't have a shield. All the choices are crap for most jungle tanks.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yZ4irKEL,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-10-24T04:03:38.440+0000) > > The fuck do I take as Sej/Zac? > > I'm rarely with allies for FoL heals, I don't tend to be near towers enough for Demolish to be worth it and I don't have a shield. The least bad rune is Demolish, but I shouldn't have to be choosing between three utterly garbage choices. Just curious, Given those situations, when would you have used Bone Plating except when encountering the enemy jungler? Beyond that, any situation for Bone Plating would be similar as those for Font, unless the laner was back at base, Just need to cast W or Q.
Firstly, because of how weak tank junglers are to invades that's actually something that's worth a rune slot to try to mitigate. Font is not similar to Bone Plating in use case either, Font relies on multiple procs over a prolonged period of time to be effective. Bone Plating is effective as soon as you're attacked. Bone Plating is useful during invades, teamfights and ganks, which make it completely justifiable to run.
Meddler (NA)
: Nothing immediately, though that's not to say we're happy with his current delta in performance between organized play and regular games which we've had to balance around.
"We're happy to leave champions in a state where you can't play them because of less than 0.1% of the players in the game" Fucking inspiring.
: I dunno, I actually think Critmaster Garen brought up a good point. I do kinda wonder what people who were picking up bone plating are going to do. I didn't really *like* bone plating, tbh, but it was a good rune for people who didn't want demolish or font of life. Only Demolish really functions for solo lane champs without shields.
The fuck do I take as Sej/Zac? I'm rarely with allies for FoL heals, I don't tend to be near towers enough for Demolish to be worth it and I don't have a shield. The least bad rune is Demolish, but I shouldn't have to be choosing between three utterly garbage choices.
: LOVE the new resolve Runes, Riot
Shield Bash is a really bad rune. It's super niche in terms of tanks who can actually use it without weird itemisation or the Guardian rune. Tanks who can use shield bash: {{champion:53}} (kinda) {{champion:3}} (kinda) {{champion:59}} {{champion:54}} (kinda) {{champion:111}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:77}} Tanks who can't use shield bash: {{champion:12}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:154}} Being realistic, Blitz, Galio and Malph have too little control over their shields for this to be a viable rune on them, they can just technically make use of it not practically make use of it. So under half of tanks can actually use this rune at all. I was also generous as to what constitutes a tank in list 1 and harsh in list 2. The actual pool of tanks who would even look at this rune is J4, Naut, Ornn, Shen and Sion. The others all have better choices. Having a niche rune isn't always a bad thing, but when the other options are Font of Life, a rune that's already niche and Demolish, a rune that you take because you have no other options and don't generally want it's a bad idea. If anything this rune should have replaced Demolish, although I still don't think it'd be a good idea.
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LankPants

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