: For the love of god, revert Shaco already.
All of the class reworks honestly need to be looked over, I could name 5 or 6 class reworks where the game could be made better with simple reverts. The class reworks simply weren't good.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cwxXNlmp,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-10-17T07:54:37.642+0000) > > Probably better to do that just by AAing or hitting spells. > > It 29 damage/second at level 18, after MR it'll never hit more than 20 in a best case. 20 DPS is such a pathetic hike I'd just prefer the advantages any other Armour item can bring. When you consider it in a sense that 5 seconds of say 20 dps is effectively 100 damage, that's a lot if you're up against a squishy adc. 5 seconds is roughly the time it takes to get out a full Q and an E. 100 damage added on to raw 60 armor and 450 Hp is definitely attractive enough for me to use, and it more reliably stacks grasp, instead of needing to worry about constantly autoing or burning mana on the minion wave
A max stack DMP does that 100 damage instantly when you discharge the stacks. Why would I want Sunfire which takes a whole 3 seconds to achieve that once you factor armour and doesn't give the same MS boost? If I really want a damage based armour item though Thornmail is the current uncontested king, the absolute minimum damage the item can do is 33 magic damage every time you're hit which is already better than Sunfire's max of 29/second if you get AAd once per second. With some bonus armour, say 100 from other sources your Thornmail jumps to 43 damage drastically outpacing Sunfire before you even consider GW. In fact, try considering what a Zhonya's would do for you as a damage/armour item. Your Q alone has damn near a 200% ratio on it, your kit ratios total to 2.7+4% max HP per 100 AP, meaning an Hourglass alone would add 189+2.8% max HP. With how high Eve's ratios are (I hadn't looked this up until now) I'd actually opt into a more AP bruiser route trying to get multiple rotations of Hatespikes off and shred through frontlines with the 1.95 AP ratio. I'd look at a build like {{item:3102}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3152}} (assuming lane) and almost certainly opt into the middle tree for the 5% extra CDR (30% from build, 10% from runes) running Stormraiders or TLD as a keystone. Probably not what you'd like to hear, but ratios as high as Eve's can't be simply ignored. They're just so much of her powerbudget. Just to give context on how absurd Eve's Q ratio is, with this 360 AP build before runes or masteries Eve's Q would be dealing 702 extra damage. That's pretty absurd and it's something no amount of bulk will really ever offset. New runes make this even better as Eve should easily be able to proc Electrocute, which is far stronger than TLD and is one of the few champions who benefits from every row of the Domination tree, especially since Eve still has the "pinkward tax", it should be fairly easy for her to farm Eyeball collection.
: Then supports and defensive strategies are generally stronger since you have longer to peel enemies off of you, which is STILL a net buff to tanks since they have longer to be healed. You'd effectively make assassins and divers worse since they just throw out their rotation and sit there with nothing else to do. You also make stall tactics in pro games significantly more effective, which would obviously screw up the pro scene and send it back to low-interaction tower trading strats. Just now realizing, you'd also make catcher supports worse since it's easier for enchanters to just shield off damage now that there's less damage to shield. Despite what simpletons clamor for, a net increase or decrease to damage dealt is an extremely dumb solution to in-game woes. Normally you need a set target at what needs fixing and how, not just number changes at random.
>which would obviously screw up the pro scene and send it back to low-interaction tower trading strats. That's inherent to the pro scene. Go watch some games in KR, this is all they do already, it's just the most efficient way to play League. >You'd effectively make assassins and divers worse since they just throw out their rotation and sit there with nothing else to do. Last I checked most divers are AA based or at least rely on a spammy low CD spell like Hec's Q. Based on [this page](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Diver_champion) the only champs I'd see who'd be liable to spend a long time sitting around are Rengar, who's barely if even a diver and Pantheon. The rest of them already have very solid DPS. As for assassins, yes, this is a defining trait of the class. If they can't kill someone they're shit till their CDs come up. It doesn't matter if they kill you in half a second or 2 seconds, this is a fact of the class. The only assassins who get around this do so by not actually being assassins like Akali, who plays more like Fiora than Zed. >Just now realizing, you'd also make catcher supports worse since it's easier for enchanters to just shield off damage now that there's less damage to shield. Riot's already talked about adding a 'shield breaker' item, but what you're talking about is basically boiling down to "It'll break some champs and hurt other". The answer to this is yes, it probably will, that's what persistent balance changes are for.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cwxXNlmp,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-10-17T06:54:23.499+0000) > > I don't think you ever want to buy Sunfire on anyone in the current state of the game. It's just a bad item that lacks use cases. > > My advise for a build if you're going to try this would be something like > > {{item:3025}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3152}} and {{item:3151}} just to make you as adept at closing a gap and applying W as possible with decent damage from Liandry's and Abyssal when you do. The reasoning behind sunfire is purely to keep stacks of Grasp of the Undying ticking, that and during a duel and racks up a lot of damage with your Q spam, but i agree, all of these items would also work
>The reasoning behind sunfire is purely to keep stacks of Grasp of the Undying ticking Probably better to do that just by AAing or hitting spells. >that and during a duel and racks up a lot of damage with your Q spam It 29 damage/second at level 18, after MR it'll never hit more than 20 in a best case. 20 DPS is such a pathetic hike I'd just prefer the advantages any other Armour item can bring.
: My only problem with this theory is her health regen passive needs AP. I'd suggest AP bruiser: {{item:3157}}{{item:3102}}{{item:3151}} {{item:3116}}{{item:1402}} +boots
Sub out Rylai's for Protobelt, it's simply a superior item.
: DO NOT BUILD EVELYNN AP (Read before downvoting)
I don't think you ever want to buy Sunfire on anyone in the current state of the game. It's just a bad item that lacks use cases. My advise for a build if you're going to try this would be something like {{item:3025}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3152}} and {{item:3151}} just to make you as adept at closing a gap and applying W as possible with decent damage from Liandry's and Abyssal when you do.
: Let's talk about New Eve Riot, for the sake of the Eve mains.
I also think that a lot of the issue lies in her W. In the lane phase you can just about work a 2.5 second delay, it's more trouble than it's worth but it's doable. In later game fights Eve's W just ceases to function, a 2.5 second delay is too long for anyone, let alone a squishy champion to work with.
: Then tanks just run you down and you have no answer for that since you just nerfed it...
I thought it was implied that in this world all champions would lose damage, not just high damage ones. To extend the example if it takes a tank 2 seconds to kill a carry now, it would be 4 after.
: My personal opinion on the matter is that the game that was built at the beginning with: Burst > Sustained > Tank > Burst was one that worked. It also has costs, namely people dying instantly with very little counterplay. When we changed unconditional burst to not be a viable strategy (think old LB, old Rengar), we also removed one of the checks for ADC's. On the flip side, mages are now more sustained damage threats in themselves (since their power is translated) and can rival ADC's in mid game as well. Ultimately, we could give sustained AP the best late game scaling (as champs that can miss), but it is not a trivial problem space and there are a lot of run-on problems from solves in this space. Needless to say, we certainly hear you and something we debate about on a regular basis and are not particularly happy with, but again it is a large and difficult project.
To me the solution to this seems to be to translate all damage into being slower and have durability be generally higher. For example if a burst champ were to go from killing you in 1 second to killing you in 2 a sustained damage champ also needs to pay the same cost, going from killing you in 2.5 seconds to killing you in 5.
: NA should lose a spot for Worlds.
The number 1 seed pool should just be divided up 2 for KR, 1 for China and 1 for EU. Better reflect who's actually the top teams.
: But next to RR, MSI is outdated information. This is just you picking an choosing information.
No, it's not. RR was a tournament that meant literally nothing. Longzhu, who is the strongest team in the world right now wasn't even there. Tons of the teams were doing trolly shit for most of the time too.
Arakadia (NA)
: Why does her kitcause her to only be OP or UP? She has SO many balance levers I disagree.
What balance levers? If you reduce her damage she fails to clear the jungle and becomes useless, same for her passive bulk early game. Her CC is the only thing that truly keeps her relevant, so you can't pull that lever without crippling her. Without her lategame bulk from her passive she just explodes in teamfights doing nothing without her AoE CC, so you can't really nerf significantly there. All this leaves one lever, you can nerf her lategame damage, a surefire way to piss off Sejuani mains considering prerework her identity was AoE damage in the late game.
Arakadia (NA)
: Some parts of the rework are good. A full revert would be very bad. And please don't make claims about how people like new Sejuani without evidence.
>Some parts of the rework are good. A full revert would be very bad. Like what? Her W feels like shit to use. Her E is a completely cancerous spell that makes it impossible for melees to play into her. Her passive promotes a hit-and-run style of gameplay with Warmog's which she never had before her rework and no-one was asking for. Her R feels dull and unimpactful for an ult. >And please don't make claims about how people like new Sejuani without evidence. Unlike you I actually main Sejuani and talk to other people who do as well. No, old Sejunai mains are not happy with this rework.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=rafflesz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEuJBjTy,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-10-14T23:24:22.389+0000) > > Meanwhile twitch meta continues with no end in sight... > > lovely. the one tank of two that can engage on twitch though, better nerf her. Nerf BOTH of them. Sejuani is only slightly OP. Twitch will probably need more significant nerfs to be balanced.
>Sejuani is only slightly OP. I strongly disagree. Sejuani's broken by design, you can nerf her all you want but she'll never be balanced. Eventually you could make her useless but the way her kit's structured leaves her as an impossible champ to actually balance.
Cloud273 (NA)
: Sejuani needs to be nerfed...
Sejuani's entire rework was a mistake. It's a complete departure from pre-rework Sej in terms of playstyle and generally disliked by mains who've played since the rework. That's before mentioning it's a cancer design that most people seem to hate playing against. The best move for Sejuani would be a full revert. She was simply a better champion before her rework.
: I thought AHQ was 1st seed? Oh well......doesn't change my point.
Yeh, Flashwolves was the Pool 1 team. They won that at MSI while NA lost their pool 1 seed. TSM was actually pool 2, as were Misfits with WE being the pool 3 coming out of play-ins. Basically the lowest seed teams dominated that group.
archerno1 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=stochastic42,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EzEWrMMW,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-10-14T12:13:48.203+0000) > > Why does it matter if they lose in groups or playoffs? No NA team is going to win worlds unless they adopt the Korean (serious) model. It matters because of future tournaments. This year NA had to play in to get into MSI against other wildcard regions because it was declared weakest of 4 top regions (NA, EU,LPL,LCK). If NA continue this way on international scene, it wont be surprising if they lose 1 worlds spot. It all affects sponsorship and stuff like that.
Honestly, NA having 3 worlds slots is far too much for them as a region given their historical results. If you look at the last 2 years assuming C9 get through groups, which still isn't a forgone conclusion NA will have similar results to Turkey. NA losing a spot to either wildcard or KR (depending on if Riot wants to admit KR deserves a 4th slot based on their complete dominance) wouldn't be unfair at this point. I also think rather than the current MSI model Riot should shift to Pool 1 being KR 1/2, EU 1 and China 1, just based on historical results.
MysterQ (NA)
: I wouldn't say NA, but TSM yes. They even started off week1 saying "Oh we aint cocky this year. We respecting everyone, so we playing turtle defense." But then they disrespect FW and lose to them TWICE.
>But then they disrespect FW and lose to them TWICE. Once. Flashwolves finished 1/5.
: > [{quoted}](name=FableBlaze,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EzEWrMMW,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-10-14T10:56:27.269+0000) > > TSM seems to be the G2 of NA at at the moment Oh really? G2 got 2 KR teams in their group and finished 3-3 which is pretty darn good considering circumstances. Meanwhile... TSM couldn't get out of easiest group they've been given EVER in their careers or at least beat Taiwan that was 0-5. Doesn't look to me that TSM is even close to the level of G2.
>Oh really? G2 got 2 KR teams in their group and finished 3-3 which is pretty darn good considering circumstances. Not quite, RNG is a Chinese team but they're also Chinese second seed who were considered quite unlucky not to get first seed going into worlds. Saying they got 2 KR teams is incorrect, what they did get however was a group with two of the top four teams and arguably three of the top five, almost certainly three of the top seven. They certainly got a group that was incredibly loaded though, no arguments against that.
: Gunblade is such a frustrating item
>Nobody actually wants to buy Gunblade because it's wholistically good on them, Akali does. Out of all champions she's by far the most tied to Gunblade because all the parts work great for her.
: TSM What the heck happened!?
NA's just trying to outdo itself. Last year it went 0/10 in week 2, this year they're trying for 0/11.
hammer3 (NA)
: can we have 4 starter emotes instead of just one
You'll be able to buy at least some emotes with IP in the preseason shop, I'm fairly sure the price will be fairly high though.
Chermorg (NA)
: The rules in League apply to all ranks equally, and Riot does not single certain ranks out for punishments differently than they do other ranks.
I agree, the rules should apply equally at all ranks. Picking a champ for the first time ever in ranked at any rank should not be acceptable.
: "Easy" is an abstract concept.
My best advise would be to watch your own game and critique your plays honestly. If you do something that's absolutely retarded then just ask yourself why you did it and what you could have done better. Actively question what you're doing in game and what value you think it has. If you can't justify why you're making a play to yourself then just don't make it because it's most likely a horrible play.
: Not a Problem at all. Electrocute specificly says that you have to land 3 unique spells or attacks, if only one plant attacks 3 times it's the same as a dot spell that ticks 3 times and won't proc the rune. It would only be activated out of plants if there are 3 different plants attacking the target. And if you think about it it's better that way. Electrocute has a way higher cooldown than Thunderlords and has a higher damage aswell. You don't want to use this rune for poke but rather for an all in, so it's better that it's not proced by some random plant that you weren't even meant to summon. Also Arcane Comet is a better choice on Zyra due to ist low cooldown to my mind.
>Also Arcane Comet is a better choice on Zyra due to ist low cooldown to my mind. Arcane Comet is shit for Zyra mid because she lacks reliable CC of any kind. The Comet's good for people like Ziggs and Xerath who can reliably proc it at very long ranges with 0 commitment and people like Syndra and Ryze who can use a reliable CC spell to ensure it lands. Zyra can't do either of these so assuming they fix the jank with her plants either Aerie or Electrocute will almost certainly be better options.
MSLRA (NA)
: So the next patch Supports get increased armor, Mids got some health...why did Zyra get armor
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/d268h59e-quick-gameplay-thoughts-october-11?comment=0005000100000000
: Predictive Tier List for Patch 7.20
This tier list looks like hot garbage to me.
Meddler (NA)
: We'll be swapping Zyra to HP/HP per level (thought that was already in, guessing not, unless it just hasn't been datamined).
That's a shame, I actually liked the armour more for Zyra mid than bot. It would have made her a really good niche counter to assassins, she already has kit patterns that counter Zed and Talon anyway, add some armour so their attacks bounce off her and they'd seriously start having major problems with her.
ShadeDi (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Penns,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EUu2Gt4b,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-10-11T11:18:36.996+0000) > > 39.0% win rate so far xd > > she isnt as fun as expected cause she does almost nothing until level 6 feelsbad I don't get why they changed it so that she has to be level 6 to get her stealth, would she be too strong with the early stealth or? I guess so but then again she lacks things that other better junglers do, so idk.
Tuning down her early game cheese I guess. I'm not against it, but they really need to give her some late game power in exchange. Live Eve feels like she drops off harder than pre patch with a worse early.
: New Eve is amazing, Riot!
I like her design, but she seems seriously undertuned right now. Her W takes so long to activate and it makes her drop of like a rock into the late game. She also doesn't do much pre 6, so her window of power is really small. I think Riot's probably going to need to tune down the W prime time at later ranks at least somewhat, because 2.5 seconds is long enough for a competent player to put so much distance between themselves and Eve that Eve couldn't catch them with an R>Flash>Protobelt>max range Q.
hammer3 (NA)
: if your gonna troll in norms please do it with a 5 man so i dont have to be on your team
The worst thing is that when there's more than one person trolling at once you can't even FF. I just want to move on to a game where I don't have to deal with them, but I can't because the guy who's inting and his duo vote no to every vote.
: I would argue that they should add a stack and count for aerie. Hopefully I win that argument. Her damage generally feels fine imo. It does still feel weird to me to not try and proc thunderlords in lane though....
>I would argue that they should add a stack and count for aerie. Hopefully I win that argument. If they don't I don't think she'll end up having a usable keystone at all. Meteor already seems iffy on her since her E isn't the most consistent of spells, my assumption was that the best way to play her would probably end up being Aerie using plants to harass and proc repeatedly in lane. Of course Support Zyra will be fine opting into Kleptomancy, so like so many things this just fucks over Zyra mid even harder if it goes live in this state.
: Actually, every hit was 3 times as high as the other. meaning it was X(first Q) + X*3 + (X*3)*3
Yes, at one point every hit was 3x higher than the other, now it's 2x higher than the others. When it was 3x higher it was 1,3,9 rather than 1,2,4. Both of these are multiplicative, not exponential, one just has a higher multiplier.
: They started routinely making open discussions and feedback threads about Champion reworks eg Heimerdinger. Aswell as other line of communication. Meddler game play update s. All that because they fucked up one Champion 2 years ago. They have made strides.
I agree they improved on single champ updates, I disagree they ever improved on class updates. Class updates remained a jumbled mess of mostly garbage in which Riot repeated the same mistakes repeatedly right up until the end where they made the one good decision possible for the practice and killed it off.
: Give me a few minutes to purge some latent rage I had over reading the title Edit ok good now. So as the resident CertainlyT hater I can say that the Rework end result was a vast improvement, how much of what we have now that i can credit to CertainlyT I don't know Ahem However How the entire Rework was handled was a botched mess 1) no attention given to feedback on PBE. 2) a month later Lore update 3) the Title change fiasco. 4) Forcing a role on the player How Riot handled it was bad. they have learned from it for the better of all Reworks to follow, feels like crap for him to be the bad example. That said Mordes is better for it and I really don't think his Performance issues are from him as a champion. They more likely have to do with certain other classes being overtuned. PBE thread for reference https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KhcvQBlG-mordekaiser-change-summary-feedback-thread?comment
>they have learned from it for the better of all Reworks to follow, feels like crap for him to be the bad example. I'd argue they didn't, at least for the class reworks. There's a reason why class reworks are held in such disdain, especially by those who saw a main reworked by them. If you want to look at Sej, Zac, Rengar or LB and tell me how Riot didn't botch those reworks be my guest. The only thing they ever learned from class reworks was to stop doing them, which was easily the best thing they could have learned anyway.
: @CertainlyT, Mordekaiser's Juggernaut Rework in retrospect
>Mordekaiser's exponential Q damage had to be evened out in order to make it more reliable, increase counterplay and make it more satisfying ~~Mord's never had exponential damage at any point. The AP ratio's always been in the base, not the exponent hence he has polynomial damage, not exponential. The powers on his hits relative to the first are ^1, ^2 and ^4, for it to be exponential there'd have to be some AP term in this power.~~ This isn't even right, it has multiplicative damage, it's not even ^2 and ^4, it's just x2 and x4. Mord doesn't even have an exponent anywhere at all, calling this exponential is completely incorrect. There is a case of exponential damage in LoL but it's not Mord. Nami's W on its second and 3rd bounce has exponential scaling, abet with quite a small exponent. Nami's W bounces have powers of ^1, ^0.85+(0.00075AP), ^(0.85+(0.00075AP))x(0.85+(0.00075AP)). There's AP terms in the exponents, hence it's exponential. This is pretty nit-picky but it's also a very common mistake that I see people make when they talk about Mord.
: > [{quoted}](name=Done25,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VRnvArMW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-09T20:22:09.503+0000) > > She needs lower bases and better scaling. They tried that on Zyra before. Didn't help.
No they didn't. They tried it with Annie and it worked. The most they ever did for Zyra was bump an AP ratio by 0.05.
: Wouldn't too much AP ratio on plants cause problems though?
A 0.25 ratio isn't too much, a 0.15 is way too low. Just to put this into context it currently takes 760 AP for Zyra to double the damage her plants deal. With the change I'm suggesting this number would be reduced to 312, which is more in line with most AP abilities. It would break even at 20 AP/lv, so at level 18 you'd deal the same damage with 360 AP. This is pretty much a straight nerf to Zyra TBH, what it's designed to do is balance out the power levels of Zyra support and mid, at which point you could give other buffs, likely base and ratio to Q in order to balance the change out.
: Oftentimes, the feeling that games are too snowbally is actually misdiagnosed as: won games are drawn out for too long. If the game is decided at 10 minutes, forcing players to stick around for the entire time is probably bad. On the flip side, your experience of games feeling like they are over, when they actually aren't may be misdiagnosed as "comeback mechanics are not clear". We do a reasonable job of displaying bounties and other rubber banding mechanics for gold, but not for XP.
Or often it's just that there's a lack of any comeback mechanics and games do end too quickly for any comeback to be possible. It's not that these mechanics are unclear, it's that they don't exist. A team that snowballs has already won assuming they have any idea what to do with their lead because towers are completely and utterly indefensible.
: What does Zyra need to be a more common mid lane pick?
+0.1 AP on plants, -2 damage/level. Super easy.
: Predictions for week 2 of group stages.
NA will go 0/10 including a tiebreaker again.
Tortunga (EUW)
: No that's a perfect way to destroy Cho. His kit is very unreliable, his knock-up is pretty easy to dodge, and his silence has a short range. His spikes is great for early game but barely does anything later on. The only thing he has going for him is being a very large meat-shield and the 1k+ true damage stoneplate gargoyle ultimates. Remove the latter and he is just a large meat shield, as his ult without gargoyle isn't that gamechanging at all.
If the only thing keeping Cho viable is cheese 1K true damage ults then he doesn't deserve to be viable.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZdBE3E3G,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-06T11:42:52.369+0000) > > Sejuani's entire rework was a mess. It simply shouldn't have been given the green light. > > I don't even think she's just overtuned, I think the whole rework is broken by design. exactly how i feel. sejuani was my first jungler and i love her to death, but i HATE the new rework. the only thing i like is that her early game isnt as vulnerable but thats equally if not more just due to jungle itself becoming a little less difficult. imo they should revert the rework and just shift some of her late game damage onto early game tankiness so she can still be viable those first 10 minutes. also pls give us back some "selfish" tank items instead of just all these support items i miss my 8k hp sejuani build :(
I wouldn't even like to see Sej's power shifted if she was reverted TBH. I think that the late game tank identity is something that's missing from League right now and the game's worse off for it. I actually miss Sej as a late game hyperscaling tank and I really don't see why it was changed.
Meddler (NA)
: I think he needs to be sharpened a bit so he's not such a consistently good pick, with clearer strengths/weaknesses game to game. That should help get him out of pick/ban in pro and allow us to put some more power into him for regular play. In terms of changes we're looking at a bunch of number adjustments, not a mini rework (shifting power around rather than changing functionality).
I still can't believe you argued Sejuani had too much power on her ult then released Galio. That's either massive hypocrisy or a colossal lack of insight.
: Sejuani is broken
Sejuani's entire rework was a mess. It simply shouldn't have been given the green light. I don't even think she's just overtuned, I think the whole rework is broken by design.
: Runes Reforged: Resolve Tree Discussion (Iron Skin, Mirror Shell, Conditioning)
I'd prefer to see options other than just raw stats on at least some of the runes. Here's what my ideas would be >**Iron Skin** 2+8% base armour and base MR >**Conditioning** Increase your Armour and MR by 10% at 10 minutes, increased by 5% every 10 minutes after >**Bulwark** Take 10% reduced damage from over 450 units of range I'd prefer if the whole tier wasn't just "which is mathematically the best", which your solution still falls into.
Niaphim (EUW)
: Did I miss something? Zyra used to be free food for Zed in the past, and not particularly stellar against Yasuo (who is generally good against skillshot based mages) or Talon either (who has very strong early game nowadays).
Zyra does really well into Zed especially but generally has some pretty solid strengths into melees in general. It's just really hard to deal with Zyra's plants as a melee and she can always stay at a long enough range that these champs need multiple gapclosers to get to her and while doing that they need to wade through her CC which is great for catching them out of their dashes and Zed's telegraphed blink. As for why she does well into Zed in specific, her ult when used correctly is a hard counter to Zed's. Zyra can easily root Zed out of his R and knock him up before he really gets a chance to combo her. With an Hourglass it's even worse for him since her pressing R and Zhonya's leaves him no proper response other than to give up entirely which isn't always even an option. Quite often Zed ulting Zyra just turns into him getting mauled by plants and/or Zyra's teammates while she's in Zhonya's and he's knocked up by her R. With good enough reaction time she can also do this to Talon when he tries to jump her as well. She also does fairly well against Yas because she can attack around his Windwall with her plants. Her E is also about the perfect projectile for catching him at the end of his E, it's just wide enough and fast enough that it's incredibly hard for him to dodge without a summoner at the end of his dash. Another thing to remember is the page you'll be running into Zed and Yasuo, IMO probably this http://oce.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/preseason-update/8200-8214?build=20202326 Aerie allows you to poke mobile champs better than Comet and from my understanding can be fairly frustrating coming off Zyra as if any of her plants are attacking you when it snaps to her their first attack will send it onto you. As a melee laner VS Zyra this means you're in for a lot of "she just Q>W AA'd me and the plant auto proced Aerie". Basically I think with the amount Comet misses mobile champs and the frequency Zyra can apply Aerie you'll make up for it being half the strength by hitting it over two times as often. The other option would be Electrocute, which although better is in a much worse tree. The other important rune is Perfect Timing, which allows you a very early Zhonya's as well as the free Zhonya's effect, allowing you to make the Zhonya's plays with your R that screw over assassins so hard far earlier and a little more often.
: This is the stupidest thing I've heard. Zyra's base damage is already on the lower end for a mage since she has to rely on AI to do her damage. Harass you can easily just walk away from (there is a reason why the other AI champion, Heim, is primarily played top now) For point of reference, when Kassadin's damage got gutted, his Q and E were reduced to 180 each. The difference with Kassadin is his damage is unavoidable. Zyra on the other hand is all skillshots and sitting at 200 base damage. She is not guaranteed damage like a lot of other champions. Decreasing her base damage will only keep her bot since she will have zero kill pressure in a solo lane and will only be played as a root/AoE knock up bot. Zyra needs kit changes to function mid. Lowering her base damage will cause her to not even function at all early game.
>Zyra's base damage is already on the lower end for a mage since she has to rely on AI to do her damage. Harass you can easily just walk away from (there is a reason why the other AI champion, Heim, is primarily played top now) No it's not. If it was support Zyra would deal almost no damage all game. Since she clearly deals quite a bit of damage and doesn't build AP the only reasonable conclusion is that her bases are quite high. Everybody who tries to make this argument ignores her plants. Her plants are part of her base damage, oddly enough. Plants have the highest AP to double ratio of any spell on a mage I know, it takes Zyra 760 AP to double the base damage on her plants. If that's not a high base and a garbage ratio I don't know what is, and that's the majority of her damage. This is also where I'd like to see changes, I'd like to see her plant ratio buffed by about 0.1 and the damage/level dropped by about 2.
: And how would you balance her for mid? It's a kit problem (primarly E's utility and low effort plant harass), not a numerical one. And I swear to god if you say lower her base damage for stronger ratios...
>And I swear to god if you say lower her base damage for stronger ratios... No shit Sherlock. This is the really simple way to fix this issue, you just create a Zyra who does less with less resources and more with more. It's not a super hard concept. That wasn't the point of this post though. The point was that the 9 armour probably does more to help her mid than bot, mostly due to the fact that almost no other mid lane is gaining that. After this change she'll likely be one of the few midlaners with a positive matchup into AD assassins, which is something she already has but being one of the only potential mids to get +9 armour really solidifies this.
Ralanr (NA)
: Imo? Good.
The more insidious side of this, it makes non-tank runes better on tanks. Pretty much which ever tank can get away with specing another tree efficiently is guaranteed to be broken. I could totally see a world where Maokai or something just ignores the piss weak tank runes and finds a way to get away with running Sorcery (Phase Rush) or Domination (Predator) and simply ignores the weaker runes in Resolve.
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