: Dont worry there will be no more class updates.
: While it's true that there are quite a few champions with mobility, AoE damage and engage in practice, I'd be wary of making that a dedicated subclass, in part because that description alone comes quite close to divers, who are also tanky damage champions with engage, but also because I feel a lot of it comes from damage or CC being tacked onto abilities that don't need much of it. Because the core weaknesses of juggernauts are a lack of engage and mobility, I feel pointing out champions who can achieve comparable damage and durability, while having neither of those weaknesses, says more about those kits being overloaded and having too few weaknesses, than it does about truly establishing a proper subclass. Additionally, I feel grouping those champions together doesn't necessarily paint the clearest picture of what such a subclass would do: Jarvan technically has AoE on all of his offensive abilities, but generally wants to go kill a single target, and by contrast Amumu really wants to catch as many enemies as possible. Champions like Renekton are picked for their kill threat, whereas champions like Gragas or even Singed are much more valued for their disruption. I definitely agree that Sejuani should have been made a tank-juggernaut hybrid, but I don't think there are that many more champions out there like her, who feel equally comfortable with both disrupting the enemy team and killing them all themselves.
>Additionally, I feel grouping those champions together doesn't necessarily paint the clearest picture of what such a subclass would do: Jarvan technically has AoE on all of his offensive abilities, but generally wants to go kill a single target, and by contrast Amumu really wants to catch as many enemies as possible. Champions like Renekton are picked for their kill threat, whereas champions like Gragas or even Singed are much more valued for their disruption. I definitely agree that Sejuani should have been made a tank-juggernaut hybrid, but I don't think there are that many more champions out there like her, who feel equally comfortable with both disrupting the enemy team and killing them all themselves. Look at how shittily the Vanguard class fits together. Amumu is in the same class as Nautilus. Those two are far further apart than Amumu and Renekton, especially in teamfights where the two do exactly the same thing with slightly different tools. They go in, drop AoEs, much of which is damage and draw aggro, that's what every champ in that class does in a teamfight, it's actually very uniform except maybe Singed who's about half way there on everything. >I'd be wary of making that a dedicated subclass, in part because that description alone comes quite close to divers, who are also tanky damage champions with engage The distinction is AoE VS single target. That's actually very important, it completely changes how a champion plays. You could probably throw most of the champions in that list in the diver class though and have it make sense.
LankPants (OCE)
: >I don't understand how you'd think if only Draven and Sion existed then Draven would just be stat checking Sion. If you mean damage to armor, then sure but that's not how I fully define it being both champions have to play with their mechanics and around the enemy mechanics in order to win. It wouldn't, in this case Draven would literally start ignoring his own mechanics and just build a fuckton of crit and focus on dodging Sion's abilities over catching his axes because your axes don't matter in a case where Sion can't touch you. >I feel more skill gets involved there rather than fighting a Mundo. There's more skill playing VS Sion than Mundo, there's not a significant more skill playing as Sion than Mundo. As Sion you're just fishing with your abilities and praying the enemy isn't smart enough to avoid them or your ally CCs them for you. >That's why I'm not a big fan of reliable abilities. I'll still use them, but I don't feel like I'm having much agency with them. When you use Sion's Q in plat/diamond people run in the way that gets them off the ability the quickest. When you R people generally run back to tower instantly. People understand how to respect Sion and once you respect Sion his impact on a game pretty much ceases assuming he's a balanced champ. You don't get agency as Sion, you give everybody else a way to play around you. It was the exact same with Cho'gath 3 patches ago. There's a reason I keep bringing up Cho'gath too, he's a perfect example of how unreliability can lead to a very poor design. For him to ever be viable he needs to be absurd, Sion is basically a lesser version of this.
>Except Draven can't dodge a point blank ult unless he's flashing. If he's just not going to use his Q, then he's wasting out on a bunch of damage that Sion can build against and he can still catch Draven by slowing him with his E or hitting him with his W. OK, get into pointblank R range. >People don't play Cho for his Q, hell I don't think his W matters that much anymore. All that matters are the most reliable parts of his kit being his ult and E. The parts they made broken. Cho's E and R are far from reliable. Kitting is a thing that exists in League, it is counterplay and it is very effective VS Cho'gath. All of Cho'gaths abilities are unreliable, even more so than Sion's.
Ralanr (NA)
: I don't like stat checking because it just removes your ability to really play around people. I guess if I was to better explain it, it's like fighting a fed Yi or Tryndamere compared to fighting them evenly. On even ground you feel like there's more of a chance even if they stat check you a little. But if fed, their stats are so high that you don't get to play around them. I don't understand how you'd think if only Draven and Sion existed then Draven would just be stat checking Sion. If you mean damage to armor, then sure but that's not how I fully define it being both champions have to play with their mechanics and around the enemy mechanics in order to win. I feel more skill gets involved there rather than fighting a Mundo. The ability to avoid everything a fed player has is what I consider healthy because it showcases your skill and your opponent. I want to beat them with my skill over my stats. That's why I'm not a big fan of reliable abilities. I'll still use them, but I don't feel like I'm having much agency with them.
>I don't understand how you'd think if only Draven and Sion existed then Draven would just be stat checking Sion. If you mean damage to armor, then sure but that's not how I fully define it being both champions have to play with their mechanics and around the enemy mechanics in order to win. It wouldn't, in this case Draven would literally start ignoring his own mechanics and just build a fuckton of crit and focus on dodging Sion's abilities over catching his axes because your axes don't matter in a case where Sion can't touch you. >I feel more skill gets involved there rather than fighting a Mundo. There's more skill playing VS Sion than Mundo, there's not a significant more skill playing as Sion than Mundo. As Sion you're just fishing with your abilities and praying the enemy isn't smart enough to avoid them or your ally CCs them for you. >That's why I'm not a big fan of reliable abilities. I'll still use them, but I don't feel like I'm having much agency with them. When you use Sion's Q in plat/diamond people run in the way that gets them off the ability the quickest. When you R people generally run back to tower instantly. People understand how to respect Sion and once you respect Sion his impact on a game pretty much ceases assuming he's a balanced champ. You don't get agency as Sion, you give everybody else a way to play around you. It was the exact same with Cho'gath 3 patches ago. There's a reason I keep bringing up Cho'gath too, he's a perfect example of how unreliability can lead to a very poor design. For him to ever be viable he needs to be absurd, Sion is basically a lesser version of this.
: I agree with this, and I think part of the problem comes from how all-encompassing the vanguard subclass is. It's technically meant to designate offensive tanks, but there is such a large variety to what offensive tanks can do, i.e. initiate, disrupt, lock down, and so on, that trying to make newer vanguards do all of that at the same time has led to very samey designs with far too much hard CC. In spite of his once-legendary crowd control, Nautilus is mostly focused on single targets, and cannot effectively disable multiple opponents at once. By contrast, champions like Galio, Zac and now Ornn can continuously lock down multiple enemies at a time, while also possessing more mobility, more damage and comparable reliability. Whereas Nautilus once set an upper limit for CC that was considered undesirable to exceed, modern vanguard designs have set an upper limit that is practically impossible to exceed, short of giving newer designs AoE knockups on every ability, including their passives. This also creates a pretty crowded design space where it's difficult for newer vanguards to express themselves in a unique way, and has also largely contributed to an environment where melee champions cannot operate without spending most of their in-combat time getting hard-CCed. In order to remedy this, I think we need to start making a distinction between **lockdown tanks**, i.e. champions who are very good at locking down one target _and one target only_, and **disruptor tanks**, i.e. champions who can affect multiple enemies at a time without necessarily outright disabling them. In order for disruptor tanks to be valuable without laying down as much crowd control, Riot needs to start looking really hard into interesting debuffs: Amumu's magic damage amp is a good example, and Ornn's Brittle effect would be similarly good if it didn't amplify CC on a kit already loaded with knockups. Historically, Riot has shied away from debuffs because stat reductions didn't feel fun or impactful, but that still leaves plenty of room for other interesting effects, such as Stoneborn Pact's healing rune, damage marks like Leona or Ornn's, impairments to select effects like healing, shielding, projectiles, basic attacks, and so on. In the case of disruptor tanks that are part-juggernaut, which I think is the case for Sejuani (or, at least, pre-rework Sejuani), part of their disruption could be expressed through strong damage of their own. In essence, a lockdown tank should draw focus from the enemy team because they'd be taking one of their allies out of the equation (which should encourage them to focus priority targets like the mage or marksman, rather than the enemy fighter or tank), whereas a disruptor tank should draw focus from the enemy team because otherwise they'd keep putting them at a constant disadvantage by messing up their capabilities. To me, one of the most fundamental aspects of a tank is that they _want_ to take damage. No matter how much crowd control you pile onto their kit, if a tanky champion does not care whether or not they're being focused, they're not a tank, they're a fighter. This is why I think most modern vanguards like Galio, Maokai (who shouldn't be a vanguard in the first place), Sejuani and Zac are actually just CC-heavy bruisers, because literally none of their offensive power is conditional upon them taking damage, and many of them apply so much CC that their gameplay ends up focusing on preventing the enemy from applying damage at all, rather than drawing it upon themselves. This is also one of the reasons why I think the update worsened the confusion between fighters and tanks, because their playstyles ended up becoming even more similar. In order to create truly successful tanks, I think Riot needs to look at them with a completely new mentality, and needs to start making their power conditional upon drawing threat from the enemy team. In the case of Wardens this is likely going to be easier, as champions like Braum and Shen are designed to throw themselves in harm's way in order to block damage for their allies (though I feel Shen's W might need to change in order to redirect damage to him, as it currently anti-synergizes with his innate and forces him to have sub-par stats), but in the case of vanguards, that means they need to start giving the enemy team more room to actually fight back against them.
>I agree with this, and I think part of the problem comes from how all-encompassing the vanguard subclass is. It's technically meant to designate offensive tanks, but there is such a large variety to what offensive tanks can do, i.e. initiate, disrupt, lock down, and so on, that trying to make newer vanguards do all of that at the same time has led to very samey designs with far too much hard CC. I've mentioned this before but there's a logical subclass between Vanguard and Juggernaut. Champions with very high AoE damage, moderate mobility and who generally function as primary engage. This class would be {{champion:32}} {{champion:3}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:113}} (post revert please) {{champion:102}} {{champion:27}} (maybe) {{champion:72}} They all fit together better than some of them fit in their own classes. Probably would have stopped Sej being butchered if Riot saw it too.
Ralanr (NA)
: Again, Zac and Wukong's ults were used for the same purpose of teamfight disruption. Their kits are different, but the way they used their ults felt too similar to Riot. As for the team game part, yes I know. But Sejuani has a history of being really oppressive without needing her team to back her up in a 1v1. Giving her a bunch of slows and more damage might just make her a top laner over a jungler or make it so it's impossible to run from her if she catches you out. I'm not saying new Sejuani is great. I find her design awful. But it's not like old Sejuani was never an issue and it feels like people want the worst parts of her kit back.
>As for the team game part, yes I know. But Sejuani has a history of being really oppressive without needing her team to back her up in a 1v1. Not really. Her curve made that not a thing that happened often. In the early game every bruiser or mage and many ADCs would destroy her because she just lacked early power. In the late game sure, she'd 1v1 a mage, carry, tank, support, assassin and certain fighters without counterplay if she caught you. What the fuck are you doing away from your team in the late game for a Sejuani to catch you 1v1 though. >Giving her a bunch of slows and more damage might just make her a top laner over a jungler or make it so it's impossible to run from her if she catches you out. Only if you're retarded enough to give her that damage early game. Sej top was never played before the rework (it's better now than it was before BTW) because she couldn't trade and she couldn't farm. >But it's not like old Sejuani was never an issue and it feels like people want the worst parts of her kit back. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sejuani With the sole exception of when Cinderhulk was actually retarded nobody banned Sejuani. People didn't view her as a problem, she was below a 1% banrate for most of her existence, I believe she rested around a 0.2% banrate, basically a margin of error because nobody viewed her as a problem. The simple fact is a straight Sejuani revert would be a colossal improvement and Sejuani mains want that back overwhelmingly anyway. Why wouldn't people suggest that Sejuani gets any part of her prerework kit back considering how cancer she is now, long term players prefer old Sej and community at large gave 0 fucks about Sej pre rework.
Ralanr (NA)
: Hug you to death is basically stat checking. It's not fun to fight against or even as. I don't feel like I'm doing much if all I'm doing to trying to stay close to them. Unreliability allows for more skill expression. I firmly believe that champions should be more unreliable in their abilities (all abilities, including escapes) in order to better show skill expression. Otherwise we just have whichever champion is the most reliable always be taking the head of the meta. And frankly that's boring. I don't want to see a Draven or Sion only do well because they are busted, I want to see them do well because they are being played well.
>Hug you to death is basically stat checking. It's not fun to fight against or even as. I don't feel like I'm doing much if all I'm doing to trying to stay close to them. Statcheck hate is something I've never understood. Someone has to have the best stats, let's say for a second we remove every champ bar Sion, Cho'gath and Draven, Draven now statchecks Cho and Sion. There's always room to play against them anyway, since statchecks tend to have very strong and obvious team based counterplay. Do you know what I personally don't find fun to play as? Shitty clunky champions. I don't understand why anyone would subject themselves to playing Sion when all you're doing is testing how retarded your enemies are. I played Cho a few times recently and it's the same shit, if your enemies play well you're fucking worthless. >Unreliability allows for more skill expression. I firmly believe that champions should be more unreliable in their abilities (all abilities, including escapes) in order to better show skill expression. >Otherwise we just have whichever champion is the most reliable always be taking the head of the meta. And frankly that's boring. I don't want to see a Draven or Sion only do well because they are busted, I want to see them do well because they are being played well. If every champ was like Draven or Sion I'd quit LoL on the spot. I'd never play another game and I'd never look back. I want to play a reliable champion because I don't want to play game after game testing how terrible my enemies are which is what these champs ultimately do when they're not insanely out of line.
Ralanr (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=0003000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-22T16:15:59.638+0000) > > Try to play a teamfight as Wukong with a standard build by Eing in and Ring before any of your team do anything, there's a very high chance you die pathetically without accomplishing anything because you're just not tanky enough to do that. > > Wukong plays a secondary engage role, he's a lot like Yasuo, in a pinch you can maybe pull something out of your arse but you'd really prefer to follow a Malphite or a Zac into a fight. > Except Wukong's and Zac's aren't engage ults. They are disruption ults. If a Zac was using his R to engage over his E then he fat fingered his keyboard. > Her W never slowed before her rework, that's like saying "Sej's W is a stunning, high damage, spammable skillshot, how is that fair?". It makes no damn sense because you're talking about two abilities as if they're one ability. > Her W may not have slowed, but with her E it was the same effect. Ice sunfire cape. > PAoEs are also effects that create a lot of play, just like skillshots are effects that create a lot of play. There's very clear counterplay to a PAoE, get the fuck out of it, just like there's very clear counterplay to a skillshot, dodge it. > Except passive AoE effects don't have as wide a pool of champions that can effectively use that counterplay in order to win a fight. Everyone can dodge a skill shot. That doesn't mean anyone can effectively fight someone that's doing constant AoE damage whenever they try to make a melee attack. Plus if you had it slow beforehand (or if old Sejuani's E was off cooldown) then she makes it directly harder to do the counterplay towards it. That's like a skill shot that slows you while traveling to you. It reduces its own counterplay. > I disagree with that assertion in the first place. I don't think tanks having hard CC on their ult only is the problem, the problem is that tanks now have 3 hard CCs by default. > My only problem is when the abilities are too reliable. At least Poppy requires a wall or a dash to make the most out of her base kit hard CC (yeah she has her knock back but if she isn't getting a stun for it then you're already dead or she fucked up). > That's making the assumption that there's already no way for Ashe to escape the slow. Assuming the ability's balanced correctly everybody can escape. What adding a ground does is balance the field, it becomes as easy for Ashe to escape Sejuani as Ezreal because Sej doesn't need some insane slow to hold down Ezreal. > ADCs have a movespeed of 330 at base (I think) and don't go past 400 unless they have air dragons. If your grounded slows allow someone like an adc to escape as easily as someone naturally faster (which is technically impossible since the faster person would escape first) then your slow is garbage. > You might want to look up support Nunu and how it worked. You literally played as a Zeal for your ADC. The ability's not that much weaker now than it was then. It's more just that supports do more now, still this is an ability that carried Nunu against champs like Janna in pretty much her current state ability wise. And other people do that better. Hence why we don't see Nunu support over Nunu jungle.
>Except Wukong's and Zac's aren't engage ults. They are disruption ults. If a Zac was using his R to engage over his E then he fat fingered his keyboard. Zac has the tools to engage and Wukong doesn't. You're pulling at straws at this point and you understand that. Zac and Wukong are inherently different from each other because of how different the rest of their kits are. You could copy/paste Zacs R onto Wukong and they would still play differently. >Her W may not have slowed, but with her E it was the same effect. Ice sunfire cape. Her W may not stun, but with her E or an Irelia it has that effect. Fuck Irelia and her 4 AA point and click stun whenever she has a Sejuani on her team. >Except passive AoE effects don't have as wide a pool of champions that can effectively use that counterplay in order to win a fight. >Everyone can dodge a skill shot. That doesn't mean anyone can effectively fight someone that's doing constant AoE damage whenever they try to make a melee attack. Plus if you had it slow beforehand (or if old Sejuani's E was off cooldown) then she makes it directly harder to do the counterplay towards it. >That's like a skill shot that slows you while traveling to you. It reduces its own counterplay. >ADCs have a movespeed of 330 at base (I think) and don't go past 400 unless they have air dragons. If your grounded slows allow someone like an adc to escape as easily as someone naturally faster (which is technically impossible since the faster person would escape first) then your slow is garbage. All of this can be rebutted with a single phrase, LoL is a team game. A champion doesn't have to offer you personal counterplay to be fair, what do you do against a Zed as Kog'maw? If your team does nothing to help you there's actually nothing you can do, he doesn't offer you counterplay, he offers your team counterplay. Old Sej was a lot like this, you couldn't personally counterplay her unless you could either dash away from her or turn and outstat her. She wasn't very hard to peel though, should your team drop a decent slow on her she's probably not going to keep up with you and if they knocked her away she just had to give up. Peeling for your team is a form of counterplay, if it wasn't League would have a lot of very broken champions. >And other people do that better. Hence why we don't see Nunu support over Nunu jungle. Nunu support is a historical relic, not directly forced out by any large scale nerfs but rather made irrelevant by meta shifts. The simple fact it existed however is a testament to how strong of an ability Nunu's W is. It gives a fuckton of stats, saying it's not good is like saying adding 3 daggers to your inventory isn't good.
Ralanr (NA)
: Fair point on the quote, I'll accept that. Missing an ult that's a skill shot usually does mean it does nothing. Sion's Q does not need to always hit. Sion is not a reliable heavy CC tank, he's meant to threaten CC to zone out opponents or draw aggro. That's the point of him being super telegraphed. If Sion can get an enemy where he wants them to go by missing his ult, then he used his ult effectively without actually landing it. I know my rank shows my difference in skill level to other players. Which is honestly why I'm shocked that people want to encourage mechanics that usually revolve around hugging your opponent to death or just spamming abilities to hit targets to make them easier to hit with other abilities.
>Which is honestly why I'm shocked that people want to encourage mechanics that usually revolve around hugging your opponent to death or just spamming abilities to hit targets to make them easier to hit with other abilities. It's because champs like Sion, Cho'gath and Draven turn to shit in high elo when they're not absurdly broken. They're too easy to play around. Champs need a degree of reliability to actually function when balanced. You can go too far in the other direction and get Garen or Sona and that's just as big of a problem. There's a sweetspot and old Sej was pretty close to it. "Hug you opponents to death" also isn't a bad mechanic. It creates play, you have time to get out.
Ralanr (NA)
: But her slows don't make her unreliable, it just makes her unable to lock down targets like Yi or other mobile champions. Against immobile champions she'd be very reliable and you're giving her more damage for her _lack_ of reliability when that lack is severely gone against immobile champions. She'd make shit worse for fighters.
>But her slows don't make her unreliable, it just makes her unable to lock down targets like Yi or other mobile champions. I hate to point out the flaw in your logic, but she still wouldn't be able to lock down Yi with slows.
Ralanr (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=00030001000000000001,timestamp=2017-08-22T15:40:56.518+0000) > > Wukong and Zac inherently fill different niches because Wukong is a fighter and Zac is a tank. It doesn't matter if they have an ability that functions similarly because their classes cause massive difference in playstyle. > Yes the champions had different niches to fill but their ultimates were used for the exact same thing. Making their roles in a teamfight effectively very similar. > Arctic Assault and Vault Breaker are two very similar abilities but they do not cause Sejuani to play like Vi because there are so many other inherent differences between the two champions. > Very similar sure. They are not ultimate abilities however and VI's is used more selfishly while Sejuani's is better in teamfights. > AoE damage. Solved the fucking problem didn't I? It's almost like Sejuani's kit wasn't a problem in the first place. > Right because a slowing Sunfire was such an interactive ability. > Except Malphite has enough unique from Sej to stop them having a huge amount of overlap. The thing that most defines Malphite outside of his R is his E, it's a spell that basically fucks over any ADC you can stick to as Malphite. Sejuani would not get a similar spell. Also I don't think Sej should have the same "fuck all the ADs" thing that Malph has going for him. There's already a ton of inherent kit differences here, far more than Sej and Gragas or Sej and Zac right now. > The point is not their uniqueness, but the inherent flaw of your only hard CC spell as a tank being your ultimate. > Add a ground as well. A slow based kit with a ground somewhere has the potential to be incredibly good and incredibly unique. > Or honestly a little oppressive. Suddenly there's no way to actually escape. > Nunu's W and E will never be useless. They're both very powerful spells. If Nunu had a more usable R and a different Q he'd probably be a very strong champ. Nunu's AS increase isn't that important compared to others and that just leaves his snowball for consistently interacting with people. That doesn't mean they are good abilities.
>Yes the champions had different niches to fill but their ultimates were used for the exact same thing. Making their roles in a teamfight effectively very similar. Try to play a teamfight as Wukong with a standard build by Eing in and Ring before any of your team do anything, there's a very high chance you die pathetically without accomplishing anything because you're just not tanky enough to do that. Wukong plays a secondary engage role, he's a lot like Yasuo, in a pinch you can maybe pull something out of your arse but you'd really prefer to follow a Malphite or a Zac into a fight. >Right because a slowing Sunfire was such an interactive ability. Her W never slowed before her rework, that's like saying "Sej's W is a stunning, high damage, spammable skillshot, how is that fair?". It makes no damn sense because you're talking about two abilities as if they're one ability. PAoEs are also effects that create a lot of play, just like skillshots are effects that create a lot of play. There's very clear counterplay to a PAoE, get the fuck out of it, just like there's very clear counterplay to a skillshot, dodge it. >The point is not their uniqueness, but the inherent flaw of your only hard CC spell as a tank being your ultimate. I disagree with that assertion in the first place. I don't think tanks having hard CC on their ult only is the problem, the problem is that tanks now have 3 hard CCs by default. >Or honestly a little oppressive. Suddenly there's no way to actually escape. That's making the assumption that there's already no way for Ashe to escape the slow. Assuming the ability's balanced correctly everybody can escape. What adding a ground does is balance the field, it becomes as easy for Ashe to escape Sejuani as Ezreal because Sej doesn't need some insane slow to hold down Ezreal. >Nunu's AS increase isn't that important compared to others and that just leaves his snowball for consistently interacting with people. You might want to look up support Nunu and how it worked. You literally played as a Zeal for your ADC. The ability's not that much weaker now than it was then. It's more just that supports do more now, still this is an ability that carried Nunu against champs like Janna in pretty much her current state ability wise.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=000300010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-22T15:47:07.100+0000) > >Higher reliance on soft CCs, more slows, possibly add a ground to her kit but with less hard CC in general. I'd even be fine with her losing the knockup on Q TBH, if we just make her more about slows and damage and just let her have her one hard CC be her big engage R again. nop, not seeing unique utility anywhere except grounded which is a terrible idea, because it works against 70% of league's champs, and tied to a slow making the spell good in any situation there is a reason cass is top pick since a long time and if singed W wasn't hotfixed to get a higher cd he would still be
>except grounded which is a terrible idea, because it works against 70% of league's champs, and tied to a slow making the spell good in any situation That's kind of the idea. If your niche is "do this thing" you should generally be pretty good at doing it to at least a majority of champs. The current state of the game requires that a champ primarily balanced around slows has a way to deal with mobility. Personally I'd be fine if Sej was balanced as a slow tank without this, it would just mean she'd need higher damage to offset her lowered reliability. If you've ever seen my stance on the Sej rework you'd know that's A-OK with me. >there is a reason cass is top pick since a long time It's the insane amount of damage her E does. Turns out having Burst Per Second is pretty fucking good, same reason ADCs are so strong right now. >and if singed W wasn't hotfixed to get a higher cd he would still be OK, but what about Singed after his hotfix? Is he a menace destroying the game? Is there absolutely no way to balance him with that ground? It doesn't seem like it to me. I'd say the ground actually made him a far better champ design wise, it removed some of his worst matchups while the nerf that followed levelled some of his best matchups.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-22T15:29:39.192+0000) > > As for a tank that's primarily soft CC over hard? **Malphite has mainly soft CC in his kit, only his ult has hard**. And you know why Malphite gets picked? His ult. that's why you're all below biglinc on this discussion what he said is to make tanks not cc bots anymore if you give sejuani only one cc on her ult, BUT give her other unique strengths on her base kit she wouldn't "just be picked because of her ult"
>if you give sejuani only one cc on her ult, BUT give her other unique strengths on her base kit she wouldn't "just be picked because of her ult" I think that's pretty much what I was suggesting to be honest. Higher base kit damage and a reliance on soft CC over hard CC would put Sejuani back into a unique spot for a tank, specifically it would put her into the unique spot she held before the rework.
: the second cast could have a 'wind-up' like poppy's ult so you can point-blank ult for a very fast slow-field into stun at close range, but sniping people with it means you've gotta build up for a moment
I still feel like that's going to be clunky as hell to actually use. Can you imagine trying to second cast a Poppy R, that sounds like hell.
Ralanr (NA)
: Again, Zac's and Wukong's basically had the same effect. Riot wanted to try a different niche with him. As for Sejuani and permaslows, it's usually because slows without some more followup don't really work out well. You either need to keep the target slowed for it to have an effect for a tank (especially with how much mobility is in the game) or you need to provide something that is the reward for slowing the target. If Sejuani's reward is just slowing the target, then she _really_ needs to slow the target. As for a tank that's primarily soft CC over hard? **Malphite has mainly soft CC in his kit, only his ult has hard**. And you know why Malphite gets picked? His ult. If you make Sejuani have a mostly soft CC kit with a hard CC ult, you're basically making another Malphite, a design that Riot wants to give a full VGU mind you. Slows are just not good anymore, at least if your kit is overly reliant on them. If Nunu didn't have his counter jungle power then he'd be an actual useless champion.
>Again, Zac's and Wukong's basically had the same effect. Riot wanted to try a different niche with him. Wukong and Zac inherently fill different niches because Wukong is a fighter and Zac is a tank. It doesn't matter if they have an ability that functions similarly because their classes cause massive difference in playstyle. Arctic Assault and Vault Breaker are two very similar abilities but they do not cause Sejuani to play like Vi because there are so many other inherent differences between the two champions. >or you need to provide something that is the reward for slowing the target. AoE damage. Solved the fucking problem didn't I? It's almost like Sejuani's kit wasn't a problem in the first place. >If you make Sejuani have a mostly soft CC kit with a hard CC ult, you're basically making another Malphite Except Malphite has enough unique from Sej to stop them having a huge amount of overlap. The thing that most defines Malphite outside of his R is his E, it's a spell that basically fucks over any ADC you can stick to as Malphite. Sejuani would not get a similar spell. Also I don't think Sej should have the same "fuck all the ADs" thing that Malph has going for him. There's already a ton of inherent kit differences here, far more than Sej and Gragas or Sej and Zac right now. >Slows are just not good anymore, at least if your kit is overly reliant on them. Add a ground as well. A slow based kit with a ground somewhere has the potential to be incredibly good and incredibly unique. >If Nunu didn't have his counter jungle power then he'd be an actual useless champion. Nunu's W and E will never be useless. They're both very powerful spells. If Nunu had a more usable R and a different Q he'd probably be a very strong champ.
Ralanr (NA)
: I can win a teamfight even if I miss a Sion ult. Actually hitting your ult as a tank is not 100% necessary to win a teamfight unless you're champions like Amumu and Malphite who are more or less ult bots (Amumu at least brings increased magic damage. Malphite's AS slow doesn't seem noticeable). If old Sej missed her R, she still had her Q for engage but she'd be at a disadvantage in comparison to when her R hit. If you truly think she did nothing if her R missed, then you're only proving Riot right when they said her ult took too much power out of her kit. Galio's ult is kept in check by requiring an ally. Obviously it's not immune to nerfs, but to assume nothing keeps it in check when it has _a requirement based around your allies instead yourself_ is just ignoring a fact to support your opinion.
>I can win a teamfight even if I miss a Sion ult. I don't really have a way to say this without sounding like a complete arsehole, but that's because of your rank. At higher ranks people are much better at avoiding Sion's Q. If you miss your R you're never landing a Q unless a teammate CCs first and having to rely on a teammate to CC before you as a tank is not a place you want to be in. Sion is absolutely reliant on landing his R, but even in a case where you don't land R it still has a larger impact than Sej's old R did when missed because it moves you from point A to point B. >If old Sej missed her R, she still had her Q for engage but she'd be at a disadvantage in comparison to when her R hit. If you truly think she did nothing if her R missed, then you're only proving Riot right when they said her ult took too much power out of her kit. Can we read the quote again? >At least when Sej missed her R _**it**_ did basically nothing. I have emphasised the important word.
: i should probably actually tell you what my idea for her ult would be it'd be a 2-parter; first cast summons a really big cone from her location (roughly the size of MF ult or bigger) that applies a weak slow in the whole area second cast is the old ult, but with a catch; it's weaker if you don't throw it into the slow field. if you DO throw it, then the stun is stronger and it also erupts the slow field to do heavy damage across the whole area after a short delay, and applies a much stronger slow that sticks with them for a while after they leave it gives her versatility, it could look really cool, and it offers additional counterplay INCLUDING the original counterplay of someone bodyblocking the projectile to stop their whole team from getting frozen.
I've always liked "throw out slow field, if you damage enemy in slow field stun them" Just nice and simple, still good engage, brings back the AoE stun. Your ult could work but there'd have to be a fair delay between the first and second cast so enemies actually have a chance to walk out. At that point it would kind of risk becoming an absolute clunkfest, you have to be thinking significantly ahead and trying to R for a pick would be pretty arse. It could be OK but I have a feeling that something like this could wind up feeling terrible to use.
Ralanr (NA)
: "Old Zac did different shit when he went in" No. Not really. His ult was basically used for the same reason Wukong's was and his Q was basically just an ability he'd spam for extra damage after landing his E. I'm not saying his new kit is better (though I think the ult is). His new Q makes it much more difficult for him to actually fail a gank and it's only redeeming quality is that it actually does require more thought than his old Q. Imo they should have kept his old Q and changed his W. Permaslow Sejuani doesn't sound fun to fight at all for bruisers and would be royally fucked by any ability to reduce slows, making her laughably weak against certain teamcomps while being overly oppressive in others with little middle ground. Not saying the current one isn't already that, just saying that if you want Sejuani to provide something unique, slow spam is basically the least unique thing to give her.
>"Old Zac did different shit when he went in" >No. Not really. His ult was basically used for the same reason Wukong's was and his Q was basically just an ability he'd spam for extra damage after landing his E. His R changed the way he played a teamfight compared to other tanks and yes, it was like Wukong's. It gave him a time of threat, if you could avoid Zac's R for long enough you were generally in a pretty damn good position and it empathised Zac's positional gameplay which the rework gave a solid kick in the teeth. >Permaslow Sejuani doesn't sound fun to fight at all for bruisers and would be royally fucked by any ability to reduce slows, making her laughably weak against certain teamcomps while being overly oppressive in others with little middle ground. Not saying the current one isn't already that, Why when I say a kit that's more reliant on slow do you instantly jump to permaslow? Old Sejuani had a kit that was more reliant on slows but did not actually have a permaslow. There's ways you could implement a permaslow that aren't terrible, one that stacks up and gives time to react before you can't react. TBH I'm not even convinced that permaslowing's as bad as people make it out to be anyway, Ashe isn't a problem, old Skarner honestly wasn't a huge problem either. I just don't see where people take huge issue with this, yes it has a larger effect on some champions, so does a ground which was the other effect I was suggesting and you don't seem to be flipping out about that. >just saying that if you want Sejuani to provide something unique, slow spam is basically the least unique thing to give her. What other tank relies primarily on soft CC over hard CC? The only possible answers to this are Nunu who I think has enough inherent kit overlap to differentiate them anyway and Malphite, who relies more on AS slows to shut down DPS than MS slows anyway. What overlap is there on tanks who rely on 3 hard CCs to function? Zac, Maokai, Leona, Naut, Ali, Galio. It makes a lot of sense to me to have Sej be more of a soft CC tank, it fits her theme, her mains preferred it and it's inherently more unique.
Ralanr (NA)
: Galio's R is held back by requiring an ally to be in the right position (in the middle of the enemy team) and has a wind up to allow people to get out. It's very powerful, but those conditions keep it more in check than Sejuani's old ult. If you want to make Gragas an AP fighter, you should probably have his only CC be in that ult of his.
You can miss every single champion with Galio's R and it can still win you a fight. Even in a case where it misses everyone it's still a Shen R which actually grants more durability abet at a shorter range, while also zoning everyone out of a fight. There's absolutely nothing keeping it in check, it's an absurd ability. If you hit it you can win a teamfight off it, even if you miss it you can win a teamfight off of it. At least when Sej missed her R it did basically nothing. This was hypocrisy 101 on Riot's part.
: > [{quoted}](name=TheHappyReaperz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5pIzV8jY,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-08-22T03:30:22.969+0000) > > Yeah, makes sense. If you can't think of a way to balance it, fuck it, remove it entirely. I mean, unless you have idea to balance it, i doubt stealth will be any fair,in every game i played and there was stealth it was unfun and felt unfair to play against. It goes the same for LoL.
Balance the forms of stealth that are more cancerous to play against firstly. Vayne's stealth should be a camouflage with a small reveal range, considering how hard she already is to stick to someone who does so should be rewarded. The reveal range on Twitches stealth should be increased to +50 units on his AA range so you see him before he attacks you. He shouldn't be able to R in E or E in R so he always obeys this rule at least for the first attack. Kha'zix's stealth should end if he takes damage. It should be more about using the stealth to quickly juke in an unexpected direction, less about "I'm an assassin you can't AA for 1.5 seconds and who can end up anywhere at the end of that". Other stealths I don't feel are that bad, they do what they're meant to. Akali's stealth lets her wait on CDs in a somewhat safe manner but leaves her vulnerable to AoEs. Shaco's stealth mainly just lets him juke and punishes you for not paying attention since you can see the smoke in FoW. Wukong's stealth lets him mindgame and is actually really well designed. Teemo's stealth is a joke anyway.
: if we're bein honest i'd always enjoyed the idea sej Q should be a charge and not a dash. like a mini Sion ult or.. spirit breaker's Q. i'd like most of her old kit, or at least her W with a little skill added and some new way to apply slows. had an idea for an ult change to keep the old potential team stun with more telegraph to it, too {{champion:57}} i'd like his old ult back but condensed into a brief period, to make him the tank you pick when you want to shit on a wombo combo. so instead of it being some potentially 20 second damage reduction it's, say, 2 or 3 seconds where he redirects damage to himself, and then instead of bursting with it he translates the stored damage into extra DPS through autos agree on zac, i don't like either of his new spells. he should be snappy and responsive i think naut should be reverted to pre-s5 where he had less power on his E and his W was his main damage tool. it had more counterplay and was IMO much more interesting than him smashing E until he ran out of mana grag should be an AP fighter like he used to be, most of his mains play him like that anyway
>if we're bein honest i'd always enjoyed the idea sej Q should be a charge and not a dash. like a mini Sion ult or.. spirit breaker's Q. i'd like most of her old kit, or at least her W with a little skill added and some new way to apply slows. had an idea for an ult change to keep the old potential team stun with more telegraph to it, too I don't think Sejuani would actually function as a champion without a dash. She'd wind up like Rammus, too kitable and generally in a state where if she ever reaches you she just autowins because of how hard it is for her to reach you. I don't actually have a huge problem with this other than the fact that it makes Rammus significantly less unique. You could get around this with CC immunity, but I feel like that's just asking for trouble. I hold a very strong opinion that the dash should stay, while a charge may be thematically fitting it's an absolute nightmare from a balance perspective. I also never bought Riot's reasoning for removing Sejuani's old R. Are we really going to say "Sej's R has too much power" then immediately turn around with the Galio rework? Galio's R has 2x more power than Sejuani's ever had, even release Sejuani with her R that you didn't have to hit didn't have an ult on par with Galio. I don't personally see a problem with Sej's old R coming back TBH, the reason for removing it was utter bullshit anyway. Even if it doesn't come back she needs to have some method of actually impacting a teamfight in an AoE, the whole Sejuani rework was basically Riot looking at a champion and saying "how can we maintain absolutely nothing about her playstyle while at a surface level not changing her abilities that much". >i'd like his old ult back but condensed into a brief period, to make him the tank you pick when you want to shit on a wombo combo. so instead of it being some potentially 20 second damage reduction it's, say, 2 or 3 seconds where he redirects damage to himself, and then instead of bursting with it he translates the stored damage into extra DPS through autos I could see something like that working well. I do however think that Maokai's W needs to go. I know the whole "but targeted CC counters hypermobility" argument, but I don't personally think it's worth the cost here. His W's such a huge portion of his power budget for such a dull ability too, if you axed it you could do a lot with Maokai. You could play heavily on sapling/ally interactions to make him actually play like a Warden, rather than whatever the fuck he is now. >i think naut should be reverted to pre-s5 where he had less power on his E and his W was his main damage tool. it had more counterplay and was IMO much more interesting than him smashing E until he ran out of mana That's definitely and option. Naut's one case where I think he should definitely have some bonuses VS Jg monsters though. His clear is probably always going to be godawful without it, with it we might be able to bring him up to bad. >grag should be an AP fighter like he used to be, most of his mains play him like that anyway That would be pretty easy to do, nerf the stun on E to 0.5 sec from 1 sec, remove the slow on W or at least hit it down significantly and give him some better ratios. I'm still not sure how you ever plan on balancing that with his R though, a huge, non-committal AoE displacement is kinda power for an ult on anything that isn't a tank or a support.
MagÊ (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cL9b72da,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-22T12:54:52.557+0000) > > > has some of its power unnecessarily tried to {{item:3078}} which is usually more popular with divers that's an interesting point, sterak should be used with triforce, yet triforce is garbage on juggernauts and sterak is garbage on divers biglinc, don't hate me pls i admire you even as a mage main
>and sterak is garbage on divers It's really not. If you're Irelia or Jax you AA enough that the base AD isn't a waste and you build at least a bit of HP so the shield does about as much as it does for anyone. It's definitely a good enough item on bruisers to where if it wasn't garbage alone and had no synergy with Triforce it would at least be a consideration.
: and yet here i am, getting replies
I'll always reply to your threads when I see them, they're always interesting at the least.
: tanks can and should have strengths beyond CC
Some ideas I think would be good for differentiating tanks in general. {{champion:154}} : Revert. Old Zac already did different shit to other tanks when he went into a fight. {{champion:113}} : Higher reliance on soft CCs, more slows, possibly add a ground to her kit but with less hard CC in general. I'd even be fine with her losing the knockup on Q TBH, if we just make her more about slows and damage and just let her have her one hard CC be her big engage R again. {{champion:57}} : Maybe play up his warden strengths a bit, give him abilities that gain bonuses if they go through allies and let saplings count as allies in cases where none are around or something. What if instead of his Q he had a line root like Zyra's E but a bit slower that expanded in a circle when it hit an ally or a sapling? That way he'd have a sort of "GTFO my carry" ability. You could mix that in with some other more engage heavy elements and make him a tank who starts out a fight with an engage, probably not as good as some others though then tries to peel back and protect his team more while other tanks would prefer to just pick a guy and sit on him. {{champion:79}} : I reckon you play up Gragas as the tank who actually does things at a range. Shift power out of his E, preferably by making the hitbox actually match the animation and reducing the stun a bit and put some power into his Q. Maybe if you W before Q you could gain a bit of bonus damage on Q (less than W though) have a mini knockback around the centre of Q and consume the W buff, I'm not sure if that would be absolute cancer to play against, but at least it gives him something unique that's not just his gravitational pull on E. {{champion:111}} : Play up the CC tank again. Since he clearly needs buffs I'd like to see the slow on E increased a bit and his W gain bonus damage to monsters. Overall I don't feel like Naut's in the wrong direction, he at least makes the tradeoff a high CC tank should.
: another Sterak's thread
>2600 -> 3100 400 HP -> 700 . >Shield value decays over 5 seconds instead of 3 Probably going to have to chose one of those effects, both of them together is pretty absurd, as much as I'd love that as someone who already buys this item on both Irelia as a core and top Sej situationally. You could probably get away with both changes if the HP value was more in the neighbourhood of 500-550, but giving Sterak's damn near Warmog's HP and a considerably stronger passive than it has currently is a lot, to say the least.
: I would take 3% more movement, 50 more HP, 5% more attack speed, 50 more Mana with 30 on hit magic damage on Trinity force if the CDR was removed while having the stinger repalced with a recurve bow and sheen havign 5% movement speed instead of 10% CDR CDR should be a decision to build for. Not something that you passively get form building the strongest all around items like {{item:3165}}, {{item:3078}} and {{item:3071}}
To quote Riot when they first reworked Triforce "Tri's users don't actually want onhit damage" Users of Triforce who like on-hit damage: {{champion:39}} , {{champion:24}} , {{champion:81}} , {{champion:42}} , {{champion:5}} , {{champion:114}} , {{champion:98}} , {{champion:77}} Users of Triforce who are indifferent: {{champion:41}} , {{champion:141}} , {{champion:254}} Users of Triforce who'd be negatively impacted: {{champion:120}} I don't see Riot's argument personally, I've got to admit it.
: Cooldown reduction I think is one of those stats that feels good to practically everyone (fewer downtimes = more casts = more fun), and as a consequence is always something players would like to max out if they had the option. However, whereas previously the stat was on far fewer items, and often forced the player to sacrifice power elsewhere for it, it's now been sprinkled arbitrarily on a whole bunch of items just to make them more desirable (e.g. CDR on Warmog's), often without any real tradeoff, as is the case for Morellonomicon giving 20% CDR on top of 100 AP, a good chunk of mana and two pretty good passives (it's always had CDR, but had significantly less power everywhere else before the Mage Update). We're at a stage where it's possible to max out on CDR _by accident_, and in some cases it's actually a struggle to not go over the cap, which I think is a big red flag. If there is one class who could be somewhat justified in having CDR, it would be supports. Literally no other class has any real business having it: assassins and mages are both gated by forced downtimes via high cooldowns, and so should not be able to reduce one of their core sources of counterplay, fighters and marksmen are largely meant to rely on autoattacks, and so shouldn't be able to dilute the high moments brought about by their abilities, and tanks are the most liable to have hard CC, and so are the first ones to start making life unlivable for other melee champions once they can make their CC chains look more like CC loops. Supports technically do have a lot of CC as well, but also really want to make sure they can use their abilities the moment they're needed once fights start getting hectic, plus they have so few stats to scale with already that it might be better to give them at least this than force even more of their itemization into healing/shielding power. If the end problem is that base cooldowns are too high for most champions due to how they're balanced against CDR, one possible answer might be to tone down those bases in addition to stripping the stat from itemization. Doing so would make evaluating the uptime of CC much more consistent, and would allow those effects to be balanced with much more certainty, as I feel the current overabundance of cooldown reduction also makes people look at base cooldowns and not realize how frequently crowd control is actually being dished out.
>(e.g. CDR on Warmog's), often without any real tradeoff, as is the case for Morellonomicon giving 20% CDR on top of 100 AP These are far from the two worst offenders IMO. Mages feel like a class who probably should have easy and reliable access to CDR and there is a theoretical tradeoff between Morello's, Seraph's, GLP and RoA, it's just that games at current are too short for Seraph's or RoA to really be effective and GLP is quite niche. On GLP users there is a legitimate option to opt for a non-cdr item here. To me this feels like more of a problem with the current game length making items that should be at least decent replacements to Morello's utter horseshit. Warmog's is a niche item anyway. It feels like a place where CDR makes sense. It just gives a lot of HP as its other stat, this is where I'd say CDR makes the most sense, on an item which isn't really giving a ton of other stats, it's a very streamlined choice. Where I think isn't appropriate is on items that already give a fuckton of other varied stats. {{item:3102}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3109}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3504}} . I don't think any of these items really need CDR. Honourable mentions to {{item:3508}} which simply shouldn't exist, {{item:3001}} , {{item:3194}} and {{item:3065}} one of which should probably give 0 CDR and better stats so there's a tradeoff, I'd lean towards Helm. And {{item:3057}} and by consequence it's upgrades, for having the most unneeded addition of CDR ever, although I think all its upgrades would be fine at 10% CDR considering they're at least somewhat niche items.
: I play Sejuani because I like making other people do my job for me
I just want my interesting and unique bruiser/tank back rather than the current cancer tank she was reworked into.
: > [{quoted}](name=GayFluffyUnicorn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R9BEw6E8,comment-id=000200010001,timestamp=2017-08-20T19:18:39.612+0000) > > if we go by league standards then yes. > If we go by what supports actually mean then no. > Supports should support the team and not buff and shield the adc alone. > Also supports should be able to be played jungle or top or mid imo. {{champion:427}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:117}} all champions who can be played mid and/or jungle that are supports. Supports are not just champions who go to the bot lane. The ones who are played bot are because they are designed to do well with little gold so they are put with someone who needs the gold more but aren't lvl reliant which most top and mid laners are
>all champions who can be played mid and/or jungle that are supports. Zyra is a mid champion who can be played as a support, not the other way around. She has nothing in her kit that actually makes her a support, she's a true mage who is co-opted into the support role because of shitty balancing.
: Rakan isn't an enchanter. He doesn't buff his ADC at all; he barely even shields them. He's basically Leona but with mobility instead of tankiness.
But because he has a shield and a heal and he can build Censor right now he should build Censor. It has nothing to do with what item logically seems the best on him, Censor just grants the biggest bonus to your ADC so you buy it.
: Wait what, Sejuani and "spammable stun" in the same sentence? Sejuani has to stack 4 hits on an enemy and then stuns for 1-2 seconds, with a 10-8 timer before your can restack (Can't be reduced by CDR by the by. Internal timer). Her old kit actually had more spammable CC, with permaforst being a 6 second CD that could be reduced by CDR. Sejuani also lost the aoe stun on her ult in favor of a single target. If anything, Sejuani lost CC. In terms of Janna, Janna absolutely does not have "less going for her" in her kit. Sejuani brings three-ish stuns, two slows and some DPS to a fight. Janna brings a shield with AD boosting, a heal, a knockback, a knock-up, a slow, and movement speed to and from her. Janna's got utility on top of pretty damn good CC despite already being a supportive monster. I completely disagree that Janna is a better design. Janna by existence invalidates melee champions and makes a melee champion's job exponentially harder just by being in the same game. Comparatively, Sejuani is a tank with a small bit of synergy but enough tools to function on her own without making anyone else far weaker. Neither may be perfect, sure, but I'll take Sejuani design-wise over Janna any day. Your choice isn't entirely correct. Naut originally had the most but now he has a few champions who are on-par with him.(So 5 skills, one being a passive) Of course, characters being on-par/close to Naut aren't new. Leona had three abilities with hard CC. * Naut: Root, Hook, Slow, AoE knock-up (4/5 abilities have CC. 3/5 are hard CC) * Zac: Displacement/Slow, Knock-up, Pull (3/5 abilities have CC. All are hard CC albeit Q has a slow/displacement combo) * Sejuani: Knock-up, slow, stun and stun. (4/5 abilities have CC. 3/5 are hard CC) * Poppy: Knock-back/Stun, Slow, knock-up. (3/5 abilities have CC. Technically 4 if you count cripple. 2/5 are hard CC) * Maokai: Knock-up/slow, Slow, Root, root. (4/5 abilities have CC. 3/5 are hard CC) * Galio: Taunt, Knock-up, Knock-up. (3/5 abilities have CC. All hard CC) * Gragas: Knock-up, slow, knockback. (3/5 abilities have CC. 2/5 are hard CC) * Sion: Knock-up, Knock-up, slow. (3/5 abilities have CC, 2/5 are hard CC) But really, the point is being side-stepped. Nerfing CC won't truly solve anything. There needs to be balance among CC in a healthy way so that everything has a counter/weakness. In much the same way Burst > Sustained > Tanking > Burst, there needs to be a way to keep things in check. Hard/Soft CC should be longer than normal but be affected by tenacity. Stronger without tenacity but can easily be weakened. Displacement should be uncounterable but the shortest duration. A static time but you can't reduce it. Suppression should be uncounterable and "long" but requires a channel. The single strongest effect but you're unable to do anything. QSS in the center of this triangle to counter everything. It's not something everyone will agree with but with unique balance, you can opt for more interesting strategy than simply picking whatever is the longest CC. Nerfing CC in general won't truly fix anything. It'll just make everything fun-size and continue this downward trend of nerfing things rather than remaking the system that encouraged this problem in the first place. EDIT: As a quick addition, I'm not saying "Buff all hard CC and make it 30% longer" without any compensation. Tenacity should be improved to coincide with the effect. Give melee stronger tools to fight CC while ranged are weaker to it.
>Wait what, Sejuani and "spammable stun" in the same sentence? >Sejuani has to stack 4 hits on an enemy and then stuns for 1-2 seconds, with a 10-8 timer before your can restack (Can't be reduced by CDR by the by. Internal timer). Her old kit actually had more spammable CC, with permaforst being a 6 second CD that could be reduced by CDR. Sejuani also lost the aoe stun on her ult in favor of a single target. If anything, Sejuani lost CC. Absolutely. It's spammable in so far as stacking it on multiple targets is utterly trivial assuming you have a melee ally. You can spam the fuck out of Sejuani's E in a fight or skirmish where you have an Irelia, Braum, Renekton ect. present. She certainly didn't lose CC either, considering how weak a slow is comparative to a stun. A stun is worth several slows in terms of impact, quite often a 5 man slow will be worth less than a 1 man stun. >Sejuani brings three-ish stuns, two slows and some DPS to a fight. Three stuns, two slows, some DPS, some burst on E, she's durable, she's mobile, she can engage, peel and duel reasonably well. Sejuani has a lot more options and a lot more in her kit than Janna, this is actually undeniable. >Janna brings a shield with AD boosting, a heal, a knockback, a knock-up, a slow, and movement speed to and from her. Let's break apart the utility and the CC here. The utility is the heal, shield and MS, the CC is the knockback, knock up and slow. There's a reason I'm doing this, you seem to be implying that Janna's utility is somehow amazing. Let's just take a second to compare it to some actual utility supports. Sona has a heal that is far more reliable than Janna's, a speed boost that's larger than Janna's in all directions, a shield that's smaller, but AoE and an AoE on hit damage boost. Nami has a larger speed boost in all directions, a better heal, and a triple onhit damage boost for an ally. Lulu has a larger speed boost in all directions, a shield with an on-hit very similar to AD and a very similar ultimate to Janna's. In terms of CC these champs also stack up fairly well with Janna, especially Lulu. Janna's problems are primarily to do with Coin and Censor, not her kit itself. This is why Riot has been reluctant to nerf her, it's very clear in this case exactly what's happening. >Your choice isn't entirely correct. Naut originally had the most but now he has a few champions who are on-par with him.(So 5 skills, one being a passive) Of course, characters being on-par/close to Naut aren't new. Leona had three abilities with hard CC. Other champs have longer or more impactful CCs than Nautilus. Naut can't compete with Zac's displacements, Sejuani's E spam on multiple targets or Gragas's fuckoff ult. Not every CC is equal, not even every hard CC is equal.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=000200000000000200000000,timestamp=2017-08-20T21:42:53.504+0000) > > This is a problem only in the minds of the people who create the problem. > > Sejuani before wasn't a bruise and wasn't a tank, she was somewhere between. She had CC which was fairly tank like, durability more like a bruiser and damage somewhere between. This hybridisation wasn't bad though, it made her feel more unique. Riot's insistence that every tank should fit into a box is basically what makes them feels so shit. > She was somewhere between in that she lacked an identity either way and she had a hard time being balanced. Not to say new Sej can be balanced any easier, although I can almost imagine she is, but lets flashback. Not that common before Cinderhulk, Cinderhulk came around and broke her to where she had to be severely nerfed. Being a hybrid like that can put her in a similar spot to Gragas, who also can't seemed to be balanced well between all his CC, durability, and damage. Sej was similar as a hybrid in that she had engage, AoE damage scaling off her hp, a no counterplay (or at least binary) slow, and a potentially teamwide stun. oh, and a slow reducing passive in combat. Despite what you say, that's a lot of CC power there and something had to give between that and her damage. And her "bruiser" durability didn't matter because she built tank items, getting a lot of resists (combined with her passive), and a lot of HP, off of which her W scaled. > It's still what leads to him feeling generic due to his loss of anything unique to define him over any other tank. Tell me, why do you ever pick Maokai over Zac at current? There isn't an appropriate answer to this because Maokai and Zac do the exact same thing and Zac does it better. A few patches down the line Maokai may do it better and we end up with the reverse problem. Such great design there. So a long range, lane wide root isn't unique? For one, Maokai's engage can't actually be stopped with a displacement ability. Using his ult allows for longer range engages. Maokai has a strong gision game with saplings. Stronger tank against casters with how his passive cools down with spell casts. Zac has the unique gank paths, his revive passive, and lots of displacemnt which can't be stopped by anything. Every one of them has something unique going for them, they all have a place against different comps and, for some, in certain comps (amumu, sejuani), but all people see is that they all CC, and that's it. People don't care that it's all different types of CC, different ranges, different ways of applying it, of approaching fights with it, just that it is all CC.
>She was somewhere between in that she lacked an identity either way That was her identity. Why do we struggle to see this when other champions do the exact same thing and people accept it? Ashe is somewhere between an ADC and a support, does that mean she lacks identity? Of course not, her supportish attributes are literally the entire thing that separates Ashe from any other ADC. >and she had a hard time being balanced. Not to say new Sej can be balanced any easier, although I can almost imagine she is, but lets flashback. Not that common before Cinderhulk, Cinderhulk came around and broke her to where she had to be severely nerfed. You seem to convieniently leave out a lot of context here. Sejuani was a balanced champion before Cinderhulk, she wasn't "not that common", she had a 5-7% pickrate in the months leading up to Cinderhulks release. She was also balanced for a few patches when Cinderhulk was strong, after her initial nerf before Riot destroyed her with the Cinderhulk nerfs. Again in Season 6 she was once more balanced when she received a buff to her E which significantly helped her clear, once again she's a reasonably common pick at around 5% before preseason 7 roles around and utterly destroys her. Source on that: https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sejuani It doesn't seem to me like she was at all unbalanceble, she spent about 3 months pre Cinder balanced, about 1 month post her initial nerfs balanced and about 6 months in season 6 balanced. Compared to new Sejuani who's been nonstop busted since her rework this is an absolute homerun. >Being a hybrid like that can put her in a similar spot to Gragas, who also can't seemed to be balanced well between all his CC, durability, and damage. Sejuani lacked the durability or CC that Gragas has. His Body Slam is a longer displace, more reliable and more spammable than Sej's old Q (yes there's differences) and is also an actual AoE that can hit multiple targets. He gets up to 18% DR with a near 100% uptime while Sej got 25 armour. His Q is a ranged slow which Sejuani's E could only be if she either got into melee range at one point or used her R, it also slowed for longer than Sej's E. Gragas had a lot more going for him outside of his damage than Sej ever did, whenever Sej was a viable pick it was off the back of her damage, which was actually a unique reason for picking a tank. >a no counterplay (or at least binary) slow, People love throwing that word around without even thinking about it. Sejuani's slow had counterplay, you could kite her. If you're a melee champion you're in melee range of her if she can mark you with her E, so peel her away and stop her marking your caries. Do you know what lacks counter play? Her new E, which asks you to do absurd things to avoid getting stacked and punishes you harder than her old E ever did. You have to stay out of melee range of Sejuani, dodge her W, and somehow find a way to dodge her fucking Irelia or Renekton who can stack up her E far faster than she can anyway. Dodging Sejuani is reasonable, she only has 2 spells to really help her get on top of you and one is a long cooldown ultimate. Trying to stop an Irelia, Leona, Fiora, Jax or Braum from either getting stacks themselves or making it absurdly easy for them and Sejuani to get stacks is next to impossible. >And her "bruiser" durability didn't matter because she built tank items It did matter because bruisers actually have innate durability, far more than +25 armour. Let's just take a look at some, Renekton R and Q heal, J4 W, Irelia W and R heal, Jax R, Lee Sin W and W heal, Fiora W, P heal and R heal. Sejuani's defensive itemisation advantage is what bought her up to bruiser level durability. Where they get some defence for free and buy some offence early Sejuani got some offence for free and bought some defence early. Sejuani was also on the more extreme scaling end which meant that like Jax and Fiora (when balanced) she was more about late game power than early which made sense for a high damage tank. If old Sejuani had to itemise like a bruiser she would have had significantly less defence than them. Sejuani's kit at a baseline was less tanky than champions who weren't even tanks or juggernauts a lot of the time. I could respond to the others but I think this is long enough already.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=00090000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-21T02:23:42.908+0000) > > You fundamentally misunderstand what makes a champion function as a support. > > He wouldn't be a viable support due to his lack of overall CC, his selfish passive and general lack of utility compared to meta tank supports. His R wouldn't make up the difference in the same way it didn't before his rework. > > Besides the niche you are talking about in bot lane is already filled by a champion with a much better defensive ultimate than old Maokai R. Taric already does what you are suggesting you'd pick support Maokai for 2x better than Maokai would. *Looks at mastery 7 badge on Taric* uh huh. Lets look at Maokai's kit. A pssive heal, not the greatest given he's against an ADC, but still helpful. He has his knockback/slow on Q, a root on W, vision and saplings with E, and his lane-wide root ultimate. He does lack shielding or healing for his ADC though. But even with his current kit he works well as a support, and I've done it quite a bit. He has strong lockdown potential, and his old ult wouldn't change that much. Now, Lets look at the meta tank supports, shall we? Alistar has his combo (headbutt into knockup), a stacking mechanic on E leading up to a stun, and his cc breaking, damage reducing ult. His passive heals those around him after certain criteria met. Braum has a stun for his passive after 4 stacks, his Q is a decaying slow, W is a leap to ally and armor/mr buff, E is wall, and ult is his slow and knockup. Blitzcrank has his hook, a self MS and AS boost, his E knockup, and silence ult with random lightning strikes. His passive shield is only for himself. Leona, not meta, but is more diving engage focused than all three above, and only her passive actually interacts with her allies. Taric is a warden-enchanter hybrid with 1 CC ability with a delay, his invincibility ult is on a delay, and only lasts a few seconds. Maokai's old ult was a damage reduction for himself and all allies from champ damage. If it was back, he could easily end up as a support. What would separate it from Taric's ult was that it was instant, and was a toggle. He could activate it at any point when it was off CD, then leave it on as long as he could or needed to, then switch it off and damage enemies. I'm not saying he'd be automatically a support, but I can see him ending up there with that ult, coupled with the low cost of support items (imagine that ult while also having a Knight's Vow).
>Maokai's old ult was a damage reduction for himself and all allies from champ damage. If it was back, he could easily end up as a support. What would separate it from Taric's ult was that it was instant, and was a toggle. He could activate it at any point when it was off CD, then leave it on as long as he could or needed to, then switch it off and damage enemies. You seem to miss the point. His new R is actually better for a support than his old R was. His old R was just counter intuitive for a support. Either you Rd on top of your ally and blocked damage while contributing nothing else since all your CC is melee range or you use your CC and your ally isn't in your R anyway because they're ranged. His new R on the other hand works fine for bot lane since he can actually cast it, go in and still get effect out of it. The reason why Taric's R works bot is because, A it's more powerful, B it doesn't require him to hug his ADC, C even if it did Taric is a more effective champion when fighting at a range.
: Sejuani is a bad example because she's a tank. Tanks generally have hard CC. Maybe she's too mobile, sure, but she's got a fair amount of it. {{champion:40}} would be a better example. A ranged character who has a knock-up, a knockback and a slow. But really, it's not directly CC being overabundant but displacement spells. Most champions coming out usually have some form of displacement (Usually like a 0.75 second knock-up/back) and a slow or snare. Urgot? Slow, Displacement and Suppress. Rakan? Knock-up and a Charm. Xayah? Root. Kayn? Slow or Knock-up. If there's better hard (non-displacement) CC and better tenacity, there's actual pros/cons to CC now rather than "Just get as many knock-ups so you can chain CC with no counter".
>Sejuani is a bad example because she's a tank. Sejuani is the best example, she's the champion who used to be reliant on fairly unreliable long CD CC and who had a spammable stun crowbarred into her kit. >{{champion:40}} would be a better example. A ranged character who has a knock-up, a knockback and a slow. Janna would be a worse example because she has less going for her in her kit outside of her CCs. Janna only has her CCs, her shield and her R heal, she deals pretty much the least damage of any champion in the game, she's immobile and she's squishy as fuck. Sejuani deals a significant amount more damage, she's tankier, she's mobile and she has an extra CC on Janna with her knockup/slow/stun/stun(slow), that's before mentioning how much more spammable all her CCs are comparatively. Regardless of Janna's current state of balance she's a far better design than Sejuani, she has a fairly focused kit which has some fairly well defined goals, strengths and weaknesses. It's just at current itemisation and raw number are covering over those weaknesses. >If there's better hard (non-displacement) CC and better tenacity, there's actual pros/cons to CC now rather than "Just get as many knock-ups so you can chain CC with no counter" I don't disagree with that statement, what I disagree with is the statement that CC overabundance isn't the problem. All you need to do to see this is to look at Nautilus. In S2 people told Riot they were insane for releasing a tank with that much CC, they weren't wrong either, Naut was an absolute terror throughout season 2. For 3-4 seasons Naut was undeniably the tank with the most CC. Now I don't even think he's in contention. He just gets beat out by Sejuani/Poppy/Maokai/Zac/Galio/Gragas/Sion. All these new tanks are a very clear case of CC creep.
: All tanks are "supportish" because they set up kills and guard allies..what I mean is it could just push him into a literal support because him and an adc would have strong trades once 6. That's a tough possibility to pass up.
You fundamentally misunderstand what makes a champion function as a support. He wouldn't be a viable support due to his lack of overall CC, his selfish passive and general lack of utility compared to meta tank supports. His R wouldn't make up the difference in the same way it didn't before his rework. Besides the niche you are talking about in bot lane is already filled by a champion with a much better defensive ultimate than old Maokai R. Taric already does what you are suggesting you'd pick support Maokai for 2x better than Maokai would.
: Hell, it's not even CC overabundance. It's that one type of CC (Displacement) is obscenely more powerful than the other CC (Stun/snare/etc.) and that tenacity is a joke. (That surprise, doesn't affect displacement). If less mobile characters had more powerful tenacity options and displacement wasn't nearly as good, it'd be fine. Just nerf displacement, buff tenacity-reduced CCs to compensate and buff the shit out of tenacity.
I'm pretty sure it is CC overabundance. Sejuani is also absurd and generally lacks displacements.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=0002000000000002,timestamp=2017-08-20T16:34:42.577+0000) > > Seems unlikely, Irelia's passive's already garbage and it stacks up like trash with tenacity anyway. She only gets 60% of the effect out of Merc assuming she's somehow getting 40% from her passive, which I don't think actually happens in practice. > > At what cost though? > > Sejuani had a fairly unique kit before her rework, she was the high damage and AoE tank who traded the normal tank things in reliable hard-CC and actual durability for her strong damage, sure there was some overlap with Amumu but his rework actually greatly reduced that overlap anyway. Now she's arguably the least unique and most cookie cutter of all the tanks in the game. > > Maokai also had some unique things going on with his R, he was one of only two tanks in the game who could reduce damage to his allies and he wasn't exactly niche splitting with Braum. While there were positives in his rework at least (unlike the other two) it still feels to me like a solid step back in terms of creating a unique champ. > > Zac is cancer. I am yet to see a convincing argument for this kit somehow being better. 3 displacements on one kit should have never been allowed. I will admit I wasn't exactly sure how her passive stacked with other sources of tenacity, thus the "if". Thank you for the explanation though. The problem with old Sej was exactly that, she supposedly dealt strong damage, when high damage goes against the idea of a tank. If she was to keep her damage, she would've been better off losing what CC she had and being changed to a bruiser or juggernaut. She was deemed a tank though, like she was at the beginning, so she has tweaked to better fit the class. Mao's old ult felt..bland at times. It was unique in that no one could give damage reduction like that, but it was an ability that felt like it really didn't have a bad time to use it, no real consequences. Besides, most people seem upset with other forms of damage reduction now (PD, Knight's Vow), I don't think returning to Mao's old ult would get accepted too well. His new ult, to me, feels like it has actual thought to it. When should I use it? Best angle to throw it? Save it for close range in the engage but for a shorter duration, or the less reliable longer range but longer root duration? Zac....I can't defend. I agree that 3 displacements like Zac's is crazy on one champ (Orrn's feels more reasonable, like needing a wall or properly headbutting his ult), and if he is to have that much CC that isn't affected by tenacity, he has to lose something in return. Damage was brought down already, maybe his reliability?
>The problem with old Sej was exactly that, she supposedly dealt strong damage, when high damage goes against the idea of a tank. If she was to keep her damage, she would've been better off losing what CC she had and being changed to a bruiser or juggernaut. She was deemed a tank though, like she was at the beginning, so she has tweaked to better fit the class. This is a problem only in the minds of the people who create the problem. Sejuani before wasn't a bruise and wasn't a tank, she was somewhere between. She had CC which was fairly tank like, durability more like a bruiser and damage somewhere between. This hybridisation wasn't bad though, it made her feel more unique. Riot's insistence that every tank should fit into a box is basically what makes them feels so shit. >Mao's old ult felt..bland at times. It was unique in that no one could give damage reduction like that, but it was an ability that felt like it really didn't have a bad time to use it, no real consequences. Besides, most people seem upset with other forms of damage reduction now (PD, Knight's Vow), I don't think returning to Mao's old ult would get accepted too well. His new ult, to me, feels like it has actual thought to it. When should I use it? Best angle to throw it? Save it for close range in the engage but for a shorter duration, or the less reliable longer range but longer root duration? It's still what leads to him feeling generic due to his loss of anything unique to define him over any other tank. Tell me, why do you ever pick Maokai over Zac at current? There isn't an appropriate answer to this because Maokai and Zac do the exact same thing and Zac does it better. A few patches down the line Maokai may do it better and we end up with the reverse problem. Such great design there.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=0009000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-20T16:10:02.385+0000) > > There's a very simple solution to this keeping something almost identical to his old R. > > Maokai reduces damage to ~~himself and~~ his allies in an AoE by x%. > > Then you could shift Maokai's durability away from his R and onto his passive while leaving his old unique R in tact. > > I'm not convinced it's 100% needed, but it's a very simple solution to implement. I thought we wanted less %damage reduction, not more. To me that just pushes his kit back toward support.
Maokai always was a supportish champion. He's never literally been a support outside of a one patch period post rework, his kit just generally pushes him towards top with his high waveclear and overall safety. None of that means that he can't play the role of a support in teamfights, which he traditionally has.
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: > Last good tank in terms of design and uniqueness Fair enough > To summarise, why pick any tank over any other tank? Numbers. That's all. Not really . When i said complicated i mean its too complicated why pick a champ over the others. > If you're a player trying to win you currently pick Zac>Maokai>Cho>Gragas>Sej>other tanks who are rare picks. Im pretty sure mao would be first because he has point n click hard cc. Also it depends on your teamcomp. If there is a braum on your team sej would be the first to take in consideration.
>Im pretty sure mao would be first because he has point n click hard cc. Also it depends on your teamcomp. If there is a braum on your team sej would be the first to take in consideration. Zac is still stronger than Maokai when played by a good player. Sej is maybe better than Gragas if you have a Braum, she's still worse than Zac, Maokai and Cho unquestionably though. Even still this isn't you picking Sej because she brings something unique to Gragas, it's you picking her because a variable's been tweaked in such a way as to actually make Sej a better champ than Gragas. The rigid order's still in place, it's just that Sej has literally became a better champ, not that she's better in one area and worse in another and you're just favouring her strengths, which is what it should be.
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: We arent korea mate. I dont know whats going on korean matches and frankly i dont care. Ive found that those things work. And idk you should give them a try.
I think you missed the point. If the best players in the world can't find the counterplay it doesn't exist. What you do is probably effective VS bad Zacs. The problem is that counterplay fails once you're pitted against a good Zac player.
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: > He's the last good non-support tank. Im pretty sure maokai is doing great too. > Here's the actual question, why pick Zac over Sejuani over Gragas over Galio over Sion over Poppy over Maokai over Rammus over Malphite? Thats a bit complicated.... > The answer is you pick whoever has the most CC or durability at any time, whoever has the best numbers because everything else is secondary and doesn't actually matter to their kits. This isnt always the case. Some might prefer the reliable cc of malphite even though its only his ultimate. Others might prefer the cc of rammus and etc.
>Im pretty sure maokai is doing great too. Last good tank in terms of design and uniqueness. There's several broken tanks right now, Zac, Sejuani, Maokai, Gragas, Cho'gath. Amumu isn't one of them. >Thats a bit complicated.... To summarise, why pick any tank over any other tank? Numbers. That's all. >This isnt always the case. Some might prefer the reliable cc of malphite even though its only his ultimate. Others might prefer the cc of rammus and etc. If you're a player trying to win you currently pick Zac>Maokai>Cho>Gragas>Sej>other tanks who are rare picks. There's a very rigid order in tank's strength enforced by their similarity to each other.
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: Well 1st of all many champs can destroy his e. Some of them are (on a daily basis) , janna, thresh, draven, darius, yasuo, lee sin, gragas, sej, well timed q from aatrox, vel koz and many others. Its true that he has 3 displacements. One of them has been nerfed and its range is pretty much melee. His e can be stopped. And his ulti can be avoided.
Tell that to pro players in Korea mate, they still haven't worked out how to effectively play around him so I highly doubt you have.
: Outside his ult, hasn't Maokai almost always been able to do that? I don't want tanks more like amumu because we run into similar overlap. A lot of people wanted tanks to have unreliablilty in CC and damage like Sion, and that's effectively what we got in the update. The overall heavier slows i see as an issue, as are displacements since they can't be reduced. My problem with being like Amumu or current Malphite is that it doesn't feel like you do much after that ult, and sucks even more if your ult goes wrong because you don't have anything else. Beyond that, Amumu is poor without ally mages, and Malphite has to mostly W-auto and E. Last time I used Malphite, his attack speed slow felt like it didn't do much to the enemy adcs past laning phase, although that could be due to an abundance of burst. I wouldn't mind less displacements for more meaninging debuffs overall..or pulling Cc from other classes so it's mainly tanks and supports that can have a lot, maybe mages with one. But right now, Mages have CC, Tanks have it, certain Juggs (but theirs is super limited, no complaints there), adcs have it, pretty much every class has some form of CC. Pull some of the CC from classes that don't need it (do Fizz, Talon, or Kha really need slows?) so a tank's CC doesn't feel overwhelming since they might be the only one on the enemy team with it, and also be willing to give tanks meaningful debuffs if extra CC doesn't quite fit. And make tenacity feel worthwhile (even if Irelia's passive needs to change to allow that).
>And make tenacity feel worthwhile (even if Irelia's passive needs to change to allow that). Seems unlikely, Irelia's passive's already garbage and it stacks up like trash with tenacity anyway. She only gets 60% of the effect out of Merc assuming she's somehow getting 40% from her passive, which I don't think actually happens in practice. >I don't want tanks more like amumu because we run into similar overlap. A lot of people wanted tanks to have unreliablilty in CC and damage like Sion, and that's effectively what we got in the update. At what cost though? Sejuani had a fairly unique kit before her rework, she was the high damage and AoE tank who traded the normal tank things in reliable hard-CC and actual durability for her strong damage, sure there was some overlap with Amumu but his rework actually greatly reduced that overlap anyway. Now she's arguably the least unique and most cookie cutter of all the tanks in the game. Maokai also had some unique things going on with his R, he was one of only two tanks in the game who could reduce damage to his allies and he wasn't exactly niche splitting with Braum. While there were positives in his rework at least (unlike the other two) it still feels to me like a solid step back in terms of creating a unique champ. Zac is cancer. I am yet to see a convincing argument for this kit somehow being better. 3 displacements on one kit should have never been allowed.
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: Why pick amumu over galio? To amplify the magic dmg of your ap carry. To disarm the enemy adc. On the reverse, why pick galio over amumu? For spammable aoe taunt, and a semiglobal ~~shen~~ ulti. Also galio is naturally stronger against ap champs. Why pick sej over zac? Because sej works better with melees. And she can catch better than zac enemy champions out of position. Why pick zac over sej? Because zac offers better ways to gank lanes, isnt restricted to melee, and he also sets up wombo combos.
>Why pick amumu over galio? To amplify the magic dmg of your ap carry. To disarm the enemy adc. On the reverse, Amumu is the unique tank. He's the one who didn't get fucked completely by the changes. He's the last good non-support tank. Here's the actual question, why pick Zac over Sejuani over Gragas over Galio over Sion over Poppy over Maokai over Rammus over Malphite? The answer is you pick whoever has the most CC or durability at any time, whoever has the best numbers because everything else is secondary and doesn't actually matter to their kits.
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: Hooo. Why so?
Because Zac's an utterly absurd and busted piece of shit in spite of multiple nerfs. He has 3 displacement effects on his kit. You can't QSS him, you can't buy tenacity against him. He's just the best tank at everything right now and should be prioritised as such.
: old mao ult is not the answer to fixe his current garbage ult old mao ult was unique, gave him a reason to be picked over other champs, but gave him NO REASONS TO NOT BE PICKED OVER OTHER CHAMPIONS moving his tankiness from a no counterplay spell to his passive, where he can be cc'ed and kited to not attack people to heal is way better just because new mao ult needs to be reworked again doesn't mean old mao was better
>moving his tankiness from a no counterplay spell to his passive, where he can be cc'ed and kited to not attack people to heal is way better There's a very simple solution to this keeping something almost identical to his old R. Maokai reduces damage to ~~himself and~~ his allies in an AoE by x%. Then you could shift Maokai's durability away from his R and onto his passive while leaving his old unique R in tact. I'm not convinced it's 100% needed, but it's a very simple solution to implement.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=00030000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-20T15:45:35.124+0000) > > > Here's the question though, if new Sej is at least equally cancer, does it not make sense to bring back the more unique champion that Sej was before her rework that Sej mains at least seem to prefer. > no, what would make more sense is to rework her again > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=00030000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-20T15:45:35.124+0000) > > Before you bring up "more people play Sej now than before", more people played her when Cinder was broken than now, people play broken shit. before cinderhulk was buffed she had 4.9% pick rate which was higher than pre-rework
>no, what would make more sense is to rework her again I agree, rework her again in the vain of old Sejuani. More damage, better AoE, less CC, less durable. The fact still stands though, that takes time, until you can actually rework her again you need to either have old Sej or new Sej. Where I fall on this argument is that old Sej was significantly better than new Sej, so it's overall better to revert for now then use her old kit as a jumping off point for a second (third?) rework that respects Sejuani as a champion unlike the last one. >before cinderhulk was buffed she had 4.9% pick rate which was higher than pre-rework https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sejuani You see that giant fuckoff spike in 2015? That was Sejuani when Cinderhulk was legitimately broken, not just somewhat out of line like it is now. Also look at her pickrate before the spike, that's when Sejuani had her first glimpse of legitimate viability since a 1 patch period in S4. She was strong but not broken and was picked about 5% of the time. The same thing can be seen in 2016 when Sej got a buff to her E which made her a legitimate jungler again until S7 rolled around and fucked her harder than any other champ not named Yi or Shyvana. If you look what her PR dropped to in the period between her initial nerfs and Cinder's buff it just so happens to be about 4-5%, the PR she had in other seasons when she was a relatively balanced champion. The crux of this argument is that people pick broken shit. When Sejuani was broken, in S5, straight after her rework and now people pick her. When she's relatively balanced she rests at about 4-5%. When she's weak like she has been for most of her existence she's quite obviously lower than 4%.
: you have no fcking clue what you're talking about old maokai WAS the cancer with undodgeable 2 sec snare on low cd, and Q that made him stick to targets to apply a snare again his ult made him tankier against everyone, he was a spam pick to give 20% damage reduction TO HIS ENTIRE TEAM with no counterplay at all, against all damage new maokai tankiness was shifted toward healing which can be reduced by GW, and can be reduced if you don't pick spell spammers against him, but rightclicking champions just shut the **** about maokai, stick to sejuani because that's all you knew
Old Maokai also had a unique ultimate which gave him a reason to be picked over other champions. I'll cede that I think Maokai is the least bad of the tank reworks, I think reducing his W duration was the correct call and putting its power into Q and passive was also correct. What I don't agree with is the rework to his R, his new R just feels like it has so much overlap with everyother tank ultimate in existence. It removed what was unique about Maokai to other tanks. In short I like the changes to Q/W/Passive, I could take or leave the E changes but I despise the R changes. Given a choice between the two kits I'd chose old Maokai, given 15 minutes to work on him I'd make a middle ground with something resembling his old R but many of the new kits mechanics. I will agree that this is less cut and dry than the other two though, I could understand a preference for new Maokai, I just personally preferred his old kit because it was more unique to other tanks, which is my biggest complaint about the whole fiasco which was the tank rework, every champ who went in came out less unique and more cookie cutter tank.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=000300000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-20T15:30:59.658+0000) > > Old Sej never built IBG. It was niche at best most likely never built on her. > sure LUL > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=000300000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-20T15:30:59.658+0000) > > IBG is actually something that came around with new Sej and her new super spammable W and E Sejuani had a stronger base AD Sejuani literally built it in every fcking game but that's also because IBG was broken > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QcpbTEF9,comment-id=000300000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-20T15:30:59.658+0000) > > If your argument is Sej builds IBG and perma slows then it makes more sense when aplied to new Sej than old i don't really care, new and old sej were both cancer to melees
>Sejuani literally built it in every fcking game but that's also because IBG was broken At the time when Sejuani built it it was also being spammed by tank Ekko, Poppy and Maokai to far greater effect. You really shouldn't judge what a champion builds based off of what is strong at current, because what is strong at current will likely be nerfed and IBG was rightfully nerfed. After the nerf Sejuani did not buy IBG because she could make up it's 70 odd damage with the 500 HP from a DMP or a Randuin's after the HP boost from Cinderhulk thanks to the scaling on W. By the time IBG was significantly outdamaging those items it ceased to matter anyway because of the fact that IBG is physical damage and physical damage tends to get DR'd away more than magic damage. If we're talking about busted tank Ekko IBG then yes, Sejuani built that. She also built busted Runic Echo's for about two patches, should we also base the amount of damage she dealt off of that time? >i don't really care, new and old sej were both cancer to melees At least you've come around to accepting new Sej cancer. It's a solid start. Here's the question though, if new Sej is at least equally cancer, does it not make sense to bring back the more unique champion that Sej was before her rework that Sej mains at least seem to prefer. Before you bring up "more people play Sej now than before", more people played her when Cinder was broken than now, people play broken shit.
: bring back old 2 sec point and click snare of mao xd
Better than the cancer that's in the game now.
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LankPants

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