: Hey all, Nimbus Cloak/Ultimate Hunter are still bound for 8.11 patch and will be returning to the PBE for further testing soon.
Great, can you change the caption on Sorcery from 'Unleash Destruction' to 'Run Really Fast' while you're at it? There's far too many runes in this tree that increase MS already, another is completely unneeded. With this rune it's entirely possible to just take effects that boost MS for the whole tree, does that seem like what Sorcery should be about to anyone?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 11
Since I don't see anyone talking about this yet I'll say it, straight up buffing Sej is a horrible idea. I say this as a Sejuani main. Her kit as it stands is too poorly designed to accommodate buffs, she actually needs reworks or reverts, not buffs. The only good thing that could come of these buffs is her skyrocketing back to 100% P/B in pro play and confirming that her kit is unworkable forcing you guys to actually do something about her.
: Modernizing Malphite's Kit
>The updates to Sejuani and Zac during the tank update were better directions as they put power out of their main engage ability and redistributed cleanly along the rest of the kit. Their instant highs became lower, but the echoes of their kit that were so blatantly power still were preserved in the kit. They finally became contested in proplay while being relatively balanced in Solo Q. (cinderhulk meta sejuani anyone?) Nice joke mate. Sej is in a far worse state now than she was before her fucking rework. Have you looked at her recently? She's at a [46% win rate in soloqueue](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sejuani/) while still drawing out competitive bans. The rework was a colossal failure. It should not be used as the standard for any future reworks at all.
SatomiKun (EUW)
: I hope not, at least not a full revert. I really want to keep the ice shattering mechanic.
The ice shattering mechanic is retarded and has to go. Giving a tank that much burst was a horrible idea.
: > [{quoted}](name=AetherArising,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j2WoIiLl,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-05-06T07:10:50.469+0000) > > I appreciate the well thought-out thread, you did your research my dude, but skepticism isn't wholly unwarranted considering the favoritism towards ADCs for the past several years. If riot *does* tune IE and ER well (and stormrazor is a biiiiit op right now, yknow, just a tadddd. I do think that'll get tuned properly though since its a new item and not a pre-existing rework) then i'll be content with the upcoming changes, > > but i gotta be super skeptical considering that almost every change as of late has been "Oh nah don't worry we'll fix it by pre-... i mean mid-.... uh, NEXT season" kind of change. > > Good post, 9/10, but i wouldn't trust riot to know what they're doing so blindly, personally. Definitely only a 9/10. After like 3 hours of typing and getting the borders in there and the bold face and then actually doing the research (I actually included everything except that new keystone xD).... yeet, couldnt really bring myself to make it picture effin perfect xD. I appreciate the feedback though, thanks. And I see what you're saying totally, but I'm having faith right now. Think about the state of the game right now. There might be slight role imbalances. But there are a LOT and I mean LOT of viable champions per role right now. I think the balance team is getting a lot better. I think they knew Kaisa was broken for the past couple patches; they just wanted to let a champ reign as a pick/ban for 2 patches. And then they nerfed her, appropriately. Kind of going into that a little, I really think the Kaisa nerf this patch was underrated. It was a nice and medium-heavy, needed nerf. I honestly think we're about to have a great league experience in a couple patches. Again, thanks for the input fellow summoner.
>but I'm having faith right now I have no faith in Riot anymore. My faith has been lost by almost 3 years of poor choices on their behalf. >Think about the state of the game right now. There might be slight role imbalances. But there are a LOT and I mean LOT of viable champions per role right now. Better the other way around TBH. A few overbearing champs can be banned out and even when they're not they only ruin a limited number of games. The current major (not even remotely slight) role imbalances ruin the vast majority of games. >I think the balance team is getting a lot better. I see evidence to the contrary. I see many champions gutted out of viability in solo queue because of pro play. I see examples of gross incompetency such as the recent Poppy 'buffs' which reduced her winrate by 2% and made her amongst the worst champs in the game and I see examples of certain champions such as Kai'sa and Kha'zix being left in god like states for patches on end while the balance team nerfs fucking Poppy. Can't say as I see why you'd have faith in the balance team at the moment, they're not really giving you any reasons to do so.
: I feel botlane importance is relatively similar to Live (both of which are very botlane-oriented). I do feel like it's harder to come back from losing botlane but from my observation that's more due to the ADC that's behind being less useful than a live ADC that's behind moreso than the enemy ADC being stronger than they would be.
Won't that make the game even worse since it simply heightens the importance of snowballing your ADC? IMO the problem is that botlane importance is far too high, if the changes don't address that then you're failing.
: The Poppy nerfs went a bit too far
These changes convince me even more that the balance team is utterly incompetent.
6KEMBE4ORBA (EUNE)
: Depends of the gains you get for the wasted stat/gold and at what time you get those gains. It's not efficient and it's a nerf and it's not only about IE- I'm not gonna waste time explaining it to you any further. My previous post is enough.
You're gaining up to 1400 gold worth of crit due to your passive crit being doubled. That can't be ignored, as you are trying to. With IE/PD at max fury you lost 1050 gold worth of crit due to being over cap. No matter which way you look at it it is efficient, you still gain 350 gold worth of crit extra from IE's doubling effect meaning with one crit item IE is more efficient on Tryn than any other champion except Yasuo.
6KEMBE4ORBA (EUNE)
: It's not 40% true dmg, the build path is way worse, it lost 50% crit dmg, Trynd dosn't need double crit mechanic - by the time he gets the new IE, games are pretty much over + he will go over 100% crit and waste stats/gold, new ER is trash = NO CDR while everyone continues to bath in free CDR way more cost efficient items, increased cost to Zeal items. **All of the item changes are huge, HUGE nerfs to Trynd. They hit him the hardest than any ranged ADC while Riot says that ranged ADCs were the target?** He won't be viable and borderline unplayable past Gold elo.
You realise the fact that IE+Zeal gives him 100% crit chance isn't a nerf because he's losing efficiency right? Getting 100% crit chance off of 1.5 items is efficiency, it doesn't matter if you slightly over 100%. If there were two items you could build for 50% CDR you'd do it, the 10% extra literally doesn't matter. What this means is that past Tryn's standard core of IE+Zeal upgrade he can build entirely situationally. He can fit 3 whole items+boots into whatever game he's playing. He can go for an early LW into armour, an early QSS into CC, an early GA to stay alive or an early BotRK if he just needs more flat damage. All of this while essentially having his core damage completed at 1.5 items. That's the sort of flexibility that makes a relativity simple champion like Tryn actually good in high elo.
: It's not as powerful as you think. It does more damage to those with 250 armor or more, but less damage compared to IE now. Trynd also loses out a bit by rushing IE. No starting crit, so building up his passive is harder. No attack speed. Less damage overall.
>No starting crit, so building up his passive is harder. I haven't done the maths on this so it may not be a perfect assessment of what's happening, but wouldn't this be greatly offset by the fact that you're building double the crit with every AA? Also if at any point you do score a lucky crit that's liable to snowball your crit by giving a huge sum of bonus crit chance due to IE's doubling effect. >Trynd also loses out a bit by rushing IE. Is anyone suggesting that? I think at bare minimum you'd still want a Zeal before IE. Maybe you can get away with Brawler's Gloves, but I doubt that.
: Still doesn't make sense to add a item like that. ____________________________________ Effects I think they should give to items aimed to ADCs: * Damage ramp up per AA on the same target, in rapid succession.(Ranged Only - So Yi, Shiv, or Jax doen't abuse it) * An active that marks a target and for the next x seconds it converts part of your AA damage to true dmg.(Ranged Only - So Yi, Shiv, or Jax doen't abuse it) * An active that gives you more range on your AA but reduce your AS for x seconds. (Ranged Only - So Yi, Shiv, or Jax doen't abuse it) ___________________________________-- Effects Riot gives to items aimed to ADCs: * Tons of damage. * Tons of damage on the first AA. * Tons of damage in AoE.
>(Ranged Only - So Yi, Shiv, or Jax doen't abuse it) I really don't think that's needed. Shyv/Yi/Jax already have disadvantages due to being melee, further disadvantages to ranged champs really aren't needed. Other than that I generally agree with this though.
: {{champion:23}} loses out massively because {{item:3508}} lost its crit chance and its no longer a good item on him, whereas before it was 100% a core item
On the otherhand he can now go Zeal>IE and get 100% crit with ~90% fury. I don't think Trynd's going to be hurting, he'll find alternatives to ER just due to the extra item slot opened up for him VS other crit champs due to his inherent 35% crit being multiplied to 70% due to IE.
: Krugs are too far away and take too long
The camp should face the other way if Riot wants to make these changes. Makes the investment to take slightly more for Botlane and slightly less for Jungle.
: Opinion: Elise Human Q feels terrible
I'd like to see Neurotoxin reworked into an actual toxin. Simple DoT, possibly a skillshot. Add some interactions with some other skills as well, maybe the stun could be longer if it hit a target afflicted with Neurotoxin, her human W could spread Neurotoxin to targets in its AoE if it hit a poisoned target and the spider form Q could deal extra damage to poisoned targets. Obviously you'd have to rebalance most of her kit to do this, but it could make her Q actually fit into her kit pretty well.
: Responding to different sections in line: > [{quoted}](name=Tormentula,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MQob4lFt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-27T20:15:43.571+0000) > ugh I really don't like that change at all... Sorry about that. It's a bit expected that the change is contentious and won't fit all jungle playstyles. The aim of making junglers interact with each other has been debated at great length. On the one hand, not all of the JvJ interactions feel particularly rich (you get to that below in more length). On the other, encouraging more PvP and success based on how you play around other champions seems like a big win to me. Right now that PvP primarily comes at the cost of heavily modifying the lane phase of one or a few laners. The hope here is that the JvJ interaction has some nuance and tension that is closer to the champ v. champ interactions in lane than it is to a PvE experience. And at the same time, laners get to have more meaningful match-ups against each other because the path to success of 'camp one lane' isn't always optimal. > Its going to feel super snowbally/coinflippy with that scuttle crab, meaning you can't plan ahead on what pathing you'll take because you may or may not be getting scuttle level 2. Not to mention first to get scuttle (which again, is going to depend on which camp start you coinflip to) is going to give one player a lead that the other player won't have the resources to catch up with (like another scuttle to go for..). I like to gameplan at loading screen on which lane I'd be better off assisting, and with this change its instead going to be planning around "ok if i somehow manage to get this scuttle then I can outpressure their jg... if". This also makes invading like the level 2 wolves cheese all the more toxic and uncounterable as that basically gives them a camp, your flash, and their scuttle pretty much free early levels. Planning ahead point: We are asking you to somewhat reevaluate your plans/pathing as the game goes on. That's an intended benefit of the system that will cause some friction. Being able to plan out your first five minutes of pathing in the loading screen leads to a rather stale gameplay experience. Not trivializing your point, as it's probably the main negative point of feedback I've received throughout testing this: jungle players highly value setting up a plan for the game in advance. Then we kind of modify our formula based on our success and eventually get to a few standard game plans that work. This skill test is going to be diminished, hopefully in favor of skill tests of reactive planning and how to interact with or avoid the enemy jungler, as you see fit. > IMO you shouldn't do the random 1 scuttle on the map, that just limits playstyles and makes things was more complicated. Keep both scuttles with the change, IMO that's fine, but contesting one RNG scuttle (or even non-rng) just seems unhealthy and unfun and less skill expressive and more "what champ gets this fastest" into the slipperly slope of "nerf early junglers but wait tanks are faster clearers, w.e we'll leave them alone!" We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't find the contesting over early Scuttle less fun and skill expressive than the current jungle meta. It certainly creates some swings because there's a battle over resources. Think that's more interesting than eking out a small creep lead due to slightly more optimal pathing. > If you wanted to fix the jungle, you should've just mass nerfed a lot of junglers to be strong/weak depending on what their clear strengths are. Example: Is WW an early game champ? I don't know.. he ganks better than all early junglers, he power spikes mid game better then them, he face tanks and still chunks everybody late game.. and he has the healthiest clear in the game to the point of not needing to start pots. I think its fine if a champ for early ganking is early gankiing.. but right now it feels like a lot of champs that play for late game are monsters early game with how healthy and fast they clear, which was previously a weakness of theirs. My original iterations looked kind of like this: I slowed down and made a lot of junglers less healthy early on. There were some benefits: laners felt less pressure. The downside was a lot of junglers returned to PvE as much as possible. So my aim shifted from dramatically slowing them down to instead reducing some of their early spike strength compared to laners and giving them outlets to interact with the other jungler. Then let them grow a lead or deficit more relevant and related to their counterpart. On the Warwick point: he's pretty solidly an early game jungler. He's arguably been overtuned for awhile so he maintains that strength later into the game than he probably should. The constant pressure from junglers isn't really specific to just a handful of junglers, though: it's a pretty standard strategy from most. > I liked when early game junglers camped and their weakness was falling behind later but if they got ahead they could carry the early game for a team advantage... now tanks do that but better, more reliably, and faster without falling off. So basically this is an unchanged problem with these changes and overall the jungle role gets shittier to play. The hope is that early game junglers can flex their muscles in a fashion that's not camping a lane. > ..Or do the simple "delay first camp spawn" instead of this scuttle rework.. or make camps actually respawn faster so there's something else for us to do beside sit in one lane and hope taxing keeps us early game junglers from falling off a building while their tank just naturally has double our pressure and double our CS I don't want to encourage farm-to-six junglers, which I fear faster respawn timers would do. More downtime early game for a jungler sounds pretty painful. Well, rather, can say it is since we tested versions like that. As per the tank pressure I don't have anything too meaningful to contribute. I disagree on how skewed in their favor this current system/balance is. > Oh and how will this work: {{champion:203}} Riot Wrekz is working on some small QoL work for her. We'll be paying close attention to her and other outliers to see if they need additional assistance.
>Sorry about that. It's a bit expected that the change is contentious and won't fit all jungle playstyles. It's not contentious, everyone has already realised this change is utter shit.
: The problem with old Sej. The problem with current Sej.
>No, reverting Sej is a terrible idea, and she isn't, nor was she ever, a diver champion. Sej should be reverted, the rework's an unbalancable mess that completely betrays what Sejuani was.
: Old Sejuani was a clunky mess of confused abilities. She had low sticking power and couldn't do her job, which was soak damage and pressure squishies. Her W was the dumbest ability known to man, infamous for not even working more than half the time and having laughably worthless impact the times it DOES work. Her E was a hilarious joke of an ability; it either did decent damage as Full AP Sejuani or it did fuck-all because you had no AP and the slow was worthless. I will say her current passive is lame, though, because it's just Aftershock without the shatter damage. What I want them to do: - She needs a passive, that's the long and short of it. When it's so easy to break her current passive and keep her from regaining it, she might as well not even have one. At the very least, make it a barrier that shatters after taking enough damage. - Revert her E nerfs. The nerfs to her E were stupid since there's no point in maxing it anymore. The stun doesn't last long enough to get a Shatter proc. - Her ult needs to have its effectiveness-over-range equalized. Why does her ult lose potency if you have to use it point-blank? That just seems unfair for a tank that wants to be in your face. - Her Q hitbox feels inconsistent. This is more of a general League problem, as hitboxes are random and do not work as intended. It goes from hitting at max range, even though it didn't look like you touched the sod, to ramming into someone and very clearly hitting but they somehow don't get hit. (Don't lie to me, you KNOW it's a problem. If you say it isn't, you are just wrong.) - Reduce the slow on her W a bit and put it on the first swing instead of the second. Hitting the second swing is annoyingly difficult right now and neuters her damage output if the enemy isn't walking in a straight line.
>She had low sticking power and couldn't do her job False, she had a spamable slow and a medium CD gap closer. Her sticking power was fine. >which was soak damage and pressure squishies. Also false. She could threaten squishies because her damage was enough to kill them if ignored. She wasn't the best tank for soaking damage and she still is far from it, that was never her job. There are tanks like Ali and Leona who are just better at this. >Her W was the dumbest ability known to man, infamous for not even working more than half the time and having laughably worthless impact the times it DOES work Her W always worked. There were no problems with this ability. It didn't have low impact either, it was the linchpin of her entire kit. It could often output raw damage numbers of around 1.2k in the late game, which was enough to threaten squishy champions. >Her E was a hilarious joke of an ability; it either did decent damage as Full AP Sejuani or it did fuck-all because you had no AP and the slow was worthless. The slow was far from worthless. It was a low CD spamable AoE slow, that's never going to be worthless. >What I want them to do: - She needs a passive, that's the long and short of it. When it's so easy to break her current passive and keep her from regaining it, she might as well not even have one. At the very least, make it a barrier that shatters after taking enough damage. - Revert her E nerfs. The nerfs to her E were stupid since there's no point in maxing it anymore. The stun doesn't last long enough to get a Shatter proc. - Her ult needs to have its effectiveness-over-range equalized. Why does her ult lose potency if you have to use it point-blank? That just seems unfair for a tank that wants to be in your face. - Her Q hitbox feels inconsistent. This is more of a general League problem, as hitboxes are random and do not work as intended. It goes from hitting at max range, even though it didn't look like you touched the sod, to ramming into someone and very clearly hitting but they somehow don't get hit. (Don't lie to me, you KNOW it's a problem. If you say it isn't, you are just wrong.) - Reduce the slow on her W a bit and put it on the first swing instead of the second. Hitting the second swing is annoyingly difficult right now and neuters her damage output if the enemy isn't walking in a straight line. So basically make her entire cancer kit 100% P/B again, great idea. The kit undeniably has problems, these changes would make those problems worse.
: sejuani 46% winrate and declining pick rate - can we revert?
It's time for something to be done, be it a full or partial revert or a secondary rework to put her back more in line with what she was pre rework. I don't really care what they do, as long as she's moved back towards her pre rework state.
GigglesO (NA)
: pics or it didn't happen. I'm confused how you would hold it...
It males sense if you consider a wireless mouse. Basically he's just applying pressure to the buttons by pressing the inside of his thumb or outside of his hand to each button.
: I've seen plenty of games that were steamrolled by a top/jungle duo, your opinion bias is insane. Lol
Sub-optimal things work against bad players. You're playing in what's best described as an average elo. It's very easy for a better player to come into your game an carry from a sub-optimal position. The dude you are talking to is playing at a very high level. Once you reach that level the ability for less optimal roles to impact the game significantly via any method other than bot lane interaction drops drastically. The game is just drastically different between higher and lower elos, I say this as someone who has been in both. Last season my account bottomed out at S3 with about G5 MMR and topped out at P1. I can tell you in Gold I could carry a game with a top laner alone who was good. By Plat I became reliant on my bot lane not sucking.
: wow win rate. Holy sht. Again a special snowflakes come up with *autistic screeching* Bbut win rate eheheheeh it proves everything ehehehehee. like seriously how many times are you going to have to be proved that win rate is not saying anything about if champion is broken, unhealthy, toxic or all the above at once unless it is way off the standard numbers and we must consider pick rate as well if you want to even pick up any stats.
So you'd prefer to rely on your own biases and opinion rather than actual stats? Good to see you're not even worth talking to.
: Yeah maybe. Poor Urgot :(
That's what happens when you have a champ who tries to break all the rules of design though, itemisation is never really going to be balanced around them. It'll probably always be pretty bad of completely busted for them and they're going to have to be balanced around one of these states. Still if you're tossing up removing the item anyway I don't see how it being melee only would be any worse for him.
: I'd honestly be on board with removing Mallet. It makes very little sense to me to have it in the game. If people want that playstyle, they have the option of Glacial Augment at this point (though it could probably use some tuning), and with the exception of maybe Urgot, it's pretty obnoxious whenever it's built on anyone else.
How about trying a completely melee only iteration before removal? I've never felt like the item is obnoxious when it's used by a melee like Shyvana or Trundle, who seem like better and fairer use cases anyway. To me the item only seems obnoxious on the likes of Teemo and Gnar.
: All those nerfs to Galio ryze taliyah for the sake of competitive
Are we just ignoring Sejuani? Riot gave her an absolute clusterfuck of a rework.
: Can we stop pretending that tanks are weak when they win basically every match up that is nor ranged or trundle? Can we look at tanks actually being able to out trade bruisers in auto attack battle after missing half of their abilities? tanks are dominating not only pro play but soloq also because they are so braindead to play and so rewarding at the same time its obnoxious. You can either play passive and never die and farm - scaling to late when bruisers falls of after mid game or just simply out trade bruiser after buing half an item or ninja tabi. Tanks should not be able to dish all that dmg considering survavibility, safety and amount of CC we have now (a lot because of cdr creep).Stop pretending that tanks are weak in soloq.
Tanks are weak in solo queue. Stop and take a look at statistics, they just are. In the top lane there is a single tank with over a 50% win rate, Sion. In jungle there is also a single tank with over a 50% win rate, Nunu. In support there's also a single tank with over a 50% win rate, Taric, some would argue Blitz too, I don't really consider him a tank. Everything else you said are simply your feelings which are at odds with the facts.
BroLane (NA)
: Why nerf Sejuani?
Riot created an unbalancable nightmare, that's why she's getting nerfed. Her kit design since the rework is abysmal and her rework was a mistake.
: New tank design philosophy creates a massive rift between pro and soloQ
Pretty 'stream of consciousness' thread, but certainly something I can get behind. I don't mind if there are some tanks who fill the low damage/high CC/high durability model, champs like Leona and Alistar have kinda always done that. The issue is when every tank is forced into that model and no variation is allowed to exist.
Sasogwa (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJq5fuas,comment-id=000c0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-12T00:00:01.263+0000) > > One of the directions we were looking to pull back on was her single target lockdown (E into Ult or Ult into E) with the changes in 8.7. I'm hoping that the change gives us room to buff her elsewhere (either W or Q potentially). I wouldn't be surprised if she still has too much burst through her passive and could see that being another area to pull back on to put power somewhere else. If you were to change her, how would you? I may not be able to reply to your reply, but you can be guaranteed that I'll read it over the next day or two. Yeaaaah please don't. I (and I hope I'm not the only one) feel Leona is very fine as she is and people need some somewhat range agnostic CC in this game to fight the nightmare that is ADC's. For me at least, she feels like one of the fairest supports in the game. Yeah she can kinda CC lock me for 2-3 seconds but she does have significant cooldowns and not "supereasy to land on melee but hard on range spammable CC" that is so disgusting to face as a kinda tanky melee guy trying to teamfight. EDIT : Apparently missread and thought you were talking about Leona here and not Sejuani, my bad
This is talking about Sejuani, not Leona. Hence the talk of changes to E on 8.7, which was last patch.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJq5fuas,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T23:51:12.016+0000) > > When you do that can you consider what her old niche was from before her rework? As someone who mained Sej pre rework it sucks that Riot basically did a complete 180 on how she played. > > Before the rework she was a teamfight focused AoE tank who relied heavily on sustained AoE damage with below average CC, terrible single target lockdown for a tank and below average durability. > > Post the rework she's a skirmished focused single target lockdown tank who deals all of her damage in single target bust with great durability and absurd CC but generally lacking damage. This is what really gets my goat. In the past, Riot's reworks have all been about sharpening a champs identity in new and interesting ways while adding more gameplay. They've generally done a pretty good job of this and I've been one of the biggest defenders of Riot's reworks for that reason. Riot only changed the core gameplay/playstyle of a champion when the old way was unsustainable, i.e. Poppy, Sion, Yorick, etc. Riot apparently considered Sejuani to be one of the champions needing a drastic change, but I just don't see it. Old Sej had some problems but new Sej has been an even bigger problem while being less fun.
>They've generally done a pretty good job of this and I've been one of the biggest defenders of Riot's reworks for that reason. There's a duality you're missing here. Riot's focused, single champion small reworks and VGUs have generally been very good, especially over the last few years. Their multi-champion class updates have been overwhelmingly terrible. There are so many bad class reworks, Kog, Graves, Garen, Sej, Syndra, Zyra, Zac, Rengar, LB ect. Sej is just part of the fallout from a system that failed.
: One of the directions we were looking to pull back on was her single target lockdown (E into Ult or Ult into E) with the changes in 8.7. I'm hoping that the change gives us room to buff her elsewhere (either W or Q potentially). I wouldn't be surprised if she still has too much burst through her passive and could see that being another area to pull back on to put power somewhere else. If you were to change her, how would you? I may not be able to reply to your reply, but you can be guaranteed that I'll read it over the next day or two.
The first thing I'd do is consider a full or partial revert, because the current state of her E, passive and ultimate doesn't seem tenable to me. The biggest problem with her kit is the pattern introduced by her E and her passive burst. Short of reverts I think ultimately her E as a spell is going to have to see major changes. The current iteration just won't ever work for a kit that's focused around anything other than single target lockdown. For me I think the ideal changes long term would be * remove the burst part of Sejuani's passive * rework E into a sort of combo of old E and old, old W, something like Sej (not melee allies) applies stacks as she damages targets, upon casting E she slows based off stacks and gains an AoE around her dealing damage over time to enemies based off the number of stacks. * rework ult into a slow field that stuns enemies Sej attacks on top of it rather than the current ult In the short term I think pulling a lot of power out of her passive damage, removing her ability for allies to stack her E, adding a lot of power to W, swapping its damage type over to magic to fix up some of her current issues with late game scaling and possibly reverting some of the Q CD nerfs could all be very positive changes. Also thanks for being willing to talk, because I think this is the first time I've seen Riot say anything about the state of Sejuani since her rework and I think it's always been pretty bad TBH. Just as a final cliff note, R>E isn't a thing, you can't do it. E>R is, R>E isn't.
: I actually touched a bit on this topic in another post on the boards - [this one here](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1UbZdRKB-i-really-dont-give-a-damn-about-lcs-balance?comment=0018) I think it's highly likely that we take another look at Sej to try to better carve out her niche and better define what exactly she should be good at, and what she shouldn't be. I'd like us to not have to leave her in this state lest she become pick ban in pro again, but I don't have any concrete plans to share at the moment.
When you do that can you consider what her old niche was from before her rework? As someone who mained Sej pre rework it sucks that Riot basically did a complete 180 on how she played. Before the rework she was a teamfight focused AoE tank who relied heavily on sustained AoE damage with below average CC, terrible single target lockdown for a tank and below average durability. Post the rework she's a skirmished focused single target lockdown tank who deals all of her damage in single target bust with great durability and absurd CC but generally lacking damage. The rework is just so antithetical to what Sejuani was.
devotress (EUNE)
: Please, help me find a player from PBE (it is urgent)
>yes, i realize that all of this sounds like i'm overreacting and you think that he's probably not going to kill himself. But i want to make sure that he is okay... So if you came here to just tell me "stop, chill, relax" and such stuff, don't write it I don't think you're overreacting at all. I thing if there's even a slight chance that this is the way he actually feels this is the best possible reaction.
Häxel (EUW)
: Can we make Sejuani again more of a Teamfight engage champion and less of a 1v1 Skirmisher?
Her E needs a rework. Straight up, it's one of the worst designed spells in the game.
: That would become one of the most overpowered champions in the game. You realize her old ult was what made her (on average) a weaker champion? When you have a potential 5 man stun from decent range, you can’t be very strong in other areas.
I personally just wish they'd revert her straight up. This new iteration has been far more problematic balancewise than old Sej ever was. Plus I found old Sej far more fun to play anyway.
: To start off, you're 100% correct in expressing frustration when you feel the game **you** play is negatively impacted by balance decisions that are made focused on the highest levels of play. You're opinion is one that's certainly shared by a large group of players, but it's also only one of several of the demographics that make up our playerbase that we're trying to serve with both solo queue and the professional scene. Let me elaborate: Group A - Just wants to play League doesn't care about the pro scene Group B - Enjoys League, tunes in occasionally to watch the pro scene (usually for big things like playoff finals, MSI, Worlds) Group C - Enjoys League, watches LCS religiously (every weekend they make time to watch every game or atleast the games with their favorite teams. Group D - Used to play League, doesn't anymore, but still watches the LCS because they like the pro scene Group E - Never played League before, but I friend told them it was pretty cool and got them to watch a few games. *These groups are not all encompassing, but what I'm trying to outline is that the number of people that care about there being some amount of focus put on pro play balance is far greater than just the players that actually play professionally. Now, more direct to your point, I have a desire/goal for a future where we don't have to make as many changes to champions based on their performance in pro play nearly as much as we do now. Right now we're beset by two conflicting goals, we (Riot) really want pro play to be as exciting as possible, and professional teams really want to win, more or less regardless of the tactics. Why these conflict is that the path to victory is often one of min maxing for risk/reward - which manifests as choosing more generically strong champions with less pronounced weaknesses, and then out macroing the shit out of your opponent. Why choose Zed when you can pick Ryze who's proven to have far fewer weaknesses when playing in a low ping, highly coordinated environment as an example? In order to make Zed a more likely pick in pro, we'd likely need to buff him drastically to overcome his weaknesses/counterplay - which is a surefire way of putting him in crazy territory for our average solo queue warrior. Since that isn't really a great option, we need to find another way. We're currently putting some brainpower in how we could help shelter pro play from specific points of imbalance, letting us put less focus on pro play in regards to balance and focusing more on the regular game. It sucks to have your champion heavily nerfed, especially when it's for something you don't care about, we totally understand that, and ideally we can find a world where that can become less of a thing that we need to do. Potential avenues could be exploring changes to the drafting phase beyond 10 bans. There really isn't much to talk about yet though. At the end of the day we highly value League as a spectator sport, and we'll continue to make changes that we believe help achieve that. We just need to make sure we're doing our diligence when we're making big changes that could impact the way the players actually engage with the game and make sure the cost is worth it. I stand by our decision to remove trackers as an example, as I firmly believe the value in terms of "quality of game" we get both in pro and normal was worth the cost of removing that one item. To close off, we simply can't shackle ourselves by only making decisions that all players will find agreeable, as doing so would mean we should probably just stop making any meaningful changes to the game period, and that's not a world that I think we should be moving towards. ps - the archangels change is only archangels. Once it's upgraded to Seraph's you get the full 3% ap again. Right now it's simply too good as a rush item when it's intended to be more mid/late game scaling power spike.
>Group A - Just wants to play League doesn't care about the pro scene Group B - Enjoys League, tunes in occasionally to watch the pro scene (usually for big things like playoff finals, MSI, Worlds) Group C - Enjoys League, watches LCS religiously (every weekend they make time to watch every game or atleast the games with their favorite teams. Group D - Used to play League, doesn't anymore, but still watches the LCS because they like the pro scene Group E - Never played League before, but I friend told them it was pretty cool and got them to watch a few games Something to consider here is the relative size of these groups. Group A is by far the largest, then B, then C the D and E. Weighting them equally would be pretty dumb.
: How would {{champion:39}} be worse than {{champion:56}} at level 1? Honest question. Similar health pools, Irelia has range advantage, Noc gets an aoe auto at the same rate Irelias passive comes on line. His q isn't going to beat the repeat executes you get off Irelia's q at 1.
Noct has a huge AD steroid on an ability that deals decent damage and a large on-hit effect on his passive that's stronger than Irelia's assuming she can't stack it up, which at lv 1 she can't. Also repeat executes aren't a thing against a buff which is almost always the best lv 1. Also Irelia has a base AD of 60, which really isn't helping her in the jungle.
: So....she will be pushed out of jungle at level 2. Practically any meta champion either clears super fast, or do it with high HP. She woulnd't be able to hold her own without some serious babysit and that leaves her prone to early invades
That's the entire issue, isn't it?
: Supports have been mandatory too. Junglers have been mandatory too.
The confusion here is the role vs class. ADC is actually more of a class than a role. That's why it's fair to say ADCs have always been manditory while other classes haven't. Saying that about the role is utter nonsense. With the exception of jungle for a very short period in S4 all of the modern roles have been manditory for a very long period of time. Ironically you chose the two roles that actually haven't always been mandatory. Early in LoL's life time lanes were more flexible, a common lane setup especially in NA was 1/1/1, with a jungler and a roaming support. As mentioned before jungle wasn't always a thing due to the double targon's meta. The other 3 roles have been pretty consistant, it's almost always been 1 top, 1 mid and a bot lane carry, the classes in all roles have not been completely consistant, but out of the roles bot lane carry has been consistant for the longest period of time without any shake up, being the same for at least 7 seasons. In other roles the playable classes have shifted far more. Mages, Bruisers, Tanks and Carries have all been playable top. Tanks, Assassins, Carries, Bruisers, Tank Supports, Mages and Ivern have all been playable jungle Mages, Assassins, Carries and some oddball Utility Supports have all been playable mid. Utility Supports, Tank Supports and Mages have all been playable as supports. Bot lane carry has always been pretty consistently ADCs with the only two non-ADCs ever to gain any traction being Mord and Ziggs.
: I suggest taking a look at Quest talents in Heroes of the Storm and trying something like that for Syndra. Require her to land hits with her abilities on enemy Champions to unlock rewards.
I think this could have some especially interesting implications for her ultimate. Since her ult's a multihit ability it would make sense for each hit to grant stacks meaning higher orb counts would stack up her ult more quickly.
: Low clear speed. I mean {{champion:12}} is superb ganker but his clear speed make him nonviable. Is basically the same with Irelia but to a lower extent
Irelia's pretty quick in the jungle once you get her up to about level 3. The problem is that until then she's super weak, slow, vulnerable and takes a lot of damage. Once you can reliably stack her passive she actually destroys the jungle.
: That zed winrate was from a single day and does not represent him actually winrate which is probably close to 51% but most likely 50%, and on the other hand, don't you think when a champ is played a lot people will start to get better at that champ?
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Zed/ His winrate's been a solid 51.5% for the entire patch. 53% isn't correct, sure but the point still stands. He was massively overbuffed.
: Women's armor in this game
Uhhh, are you sure that {{champion:113}}, {{champion:254}}, {{champion:133}}, {{champion:429}}, {{champion:102}} and possibly even {{champion:60}} don't wear some sort of armour? In {{champion:113}} and {{champion:429}}'s cases it's full armour suits while all the others wear at least as much as Diana.
Cosnirak (NA)
: It would make it harder for the Syndra player but it wouldn't add counterplay to her R. It could be argued that it would add to the effectiveness of existing counterplay from ccing her or playing around her setting up, but that counterplay already exists and is honestly pretty useless for most people who don't also play Syndra a bit themselves. It would do little to nothing to alleviate frustration for her opponents. As long as Syndra can miss all her skill shots and still flash + R + ignite and kill me from 90% hp the moment she hits level 6 just because I didn't take barrier I'm gonna hate playing against her.
The counterplay is avoiding Syndra when she has multiple balls on the ground, engaging on her when she has 1 rather than 2 or 3. It's time gated counterplay.
: i read until he started using "op.gg stats" as relevant data. that site looks at about .1% of the data out there ignoring the other 99.9% by limiting itself the korea plat+ therefore any arguments made based on erroneous data are null and void
Use any site then. Syndra's abysmal on all of them.
: > [{quoted}](name=hhaavviikk,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=hEWbKOO9,comment-id=00030000000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-07T11:53:13.316+0000) > > you know 1 of the things I disliked about the trundle rework is that they made him muscular, before he was some ugly scrawny troll, now he has a 6 pack for...some reason? this seems to me like sexualization. > > but I'm with you in that the personality has to match the sexiness of the character, take a look at bayonetta, she has fan service moments, she's sexualized but the character bayonetta herself is a sexy character, she revels in the fact that she's sexy and flaunts herself that's the way she is. > > now take a look at quiet from metal gear solid, her sexualization has absolutely NOTHING to do with character, she has been sexualized for the sake of sex because sex sells and that's what I hate it > > as someone mentioned old sejunai was the same as well, living in a ice cold country, going into melee, lets wear a bra and a skirt, clearly was also sexualized for the sake of sex because sex sells > > edit; also any character wearing HEELS is just ridiculous, you cannot run on heels much less fight, looking at you leona, your shoe choice is stupid Old Sejuani was ridiculous indeed. Yeah, I think Riot tried to make Trundle ripped because he's a bruiser and should come off as one. (For another example of this, consider that Riot is actually going to mess with Aatrox's model and proportions a bit in his update to give the same effect.) Also, he's the freakin' troll king and should probably look badass to human viewers. Hoping a Rioter can actually give insight on all this.
>Old Sejuani was ridiculous indeed. Making that claim while simultaneously loreing away Braum and Trynd is the worst double standard I've ever seen. Sej's old lore explained why she was dressed the way she was, if it's good enough for Braum and Trynd then it should also be good enough for old Sej.
: Sexualization: What's okay and what's not
>Syndra: Just isn't wearing enough. AND isn't cohesive with the rest of Ionia. We'll see if whatever lore update she gets justifies her outfit. Question, why would Syndra be cohesive with the rest of Ionia? That doesn't make sense based off her lore. The actual material looks pretty in line with what other female Ionian's wear. The style is different. That's what I'd actually expect from Syndra.
Elinz (NA)
: Kayle didn't have boob plate until they updated her splash art
There's a good reason for this. Before her splash update people didn't even know she was a girl. The boob plate was added to make her read as female.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=hEWbKOO9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-07T06:53:15.047+0000) > > Well... we could say the same for Braum and Tryndamere. Actually, yeah, we could. Although we don't actually know whether Braum is even human. He's probably a demigod of some sort, hence the lack of need for a shirt. No, I'm not the first to suggest this. Tryndamere probably wears a lot more most of the time, I imagine, while Ashe's outfit is probably closer to her day to day clothes. Bonus: Not only is Trynda working up a sweat in battle by being in the fray and Not Dying, but he probably has a nice layer of ~~insulation~~ body fat that Ashe and nearly all the women don't. You know those crazy Russian guys who can just go on a shirtless run or something in freezing weather like it's nothing? Yeah, like that. That's Tryndamere on battle rage. Drawing and aiming a bow is tough, but it's nowhere near as intense as swinging around a massive sword and cutting through enemies.
>Bonus: Not only is Trynda working up a sweat in battle by being in the fray and Not Dying, Ashe is doing almost/just as much as Trynd. Try drawing a bow at some point, especially a long bow which appears to be what Ashe is using based of the shear scale of the thing. It takes a lot of effort. Longbows can have draws of around 100 pounds. You have to be strong and put in a lot of effort on every draw. She's also running similar distances, which is pretty important. > but he probably has a nice layer of insulation body fat that Ashe and nearly all the women don't. Bullshit. The average female has a higher percent body fat than the average male. Maybe do the smallest amount of research before you say something. One more thing no-one seems to think of here, where are they battling? It certainly doesn't seem like the Frejord, it seems far warmer. If you actually want to be logical characters from a colder region when put into a warmer region like SR would actually be the first to feel the effects of heat. Have you ever seen someone from Northern Europe in Africa? They struggle with the heat, unsurprisingly. This is a pretty fair comparison for what the Frejord champs would feel on SR.
Ixoziel (NA)
: Except she doesn't scale that well from AD. her E and ult get no damage from it whatsoever and her Q doesn't even have a 1.0 AD ratio on it. Since W has a ridiculous windup time you should only use it if you're going to be stunned, so her AD ratios are just bad.
The reason why it works is because you can hit all your abilities with multiple AAs and multiple Qs really fast, W even works as an AA reset. It's completely feasible for her to R>Q>E>AA>W(tap)>E+AA>Q>Q in just over a second if you know how to combo the abilities correctly. This is where her AD ratios come from, the repeated casts of her abilities. At 18 (for simplicity) this combo has a total ratio of 5.38 starting with 0 stacks on your passive, which is absurd. This is with a no charge W and without slowing down your combo to thread an extra AA between the last two Qs, which you can do if you need more damage. I don't think everything this guy said is correct. Cleaver/Tri is probably pretty bad, I don't see why you'd ever go it over a traditional Tri/Sterak's build. What can work though is a sort of Riven style AD caster build. Items like Death's Dance and Ravenous Hydra are definitely viable options, the only reason I'd steer clear of Cleaver is that so much of Irelia's damage is magic. It's hard to justify pen when 3 of your abilities are magic damage.
: Hotfixed Irelia Discussion
They kneejerk overreacted. Riot's incapable of just taking the action they need to take, they either do pointless shit which accomplishes nothing or go way overboard. What Irelia needed was the base stat nerfs IMO, the nerfs to her CC and Q damage probably weren't needed.
Show more

LankPants

Level 45 (OCE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion