: League of Graphs makes a point about Sona
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/bronze/champion/Sona/ As of the last patch she's not even overperforming in Bronze. A 50% WR for a champ as easy as Sona is a massive underperformance. This also shouldn't even be a consideration when balancing her, bronze games involve so little skill that balancing champs around them is absurd. The biggest problem here is that Riot's balance team has simply displayed utter incompetence or a massive bias when dealing with Sona. Either they actually thought these changes were OK which shows they have no idea about the game or they didn't think they were OK which shows that they hold inconsistent standards and bias. There's no way around this, at least one of these has to be true.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BAN5PEIa,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:15:55.462+0000) > > My belief is that if any melee sits on you as a ranged champ you should be in a lot of trouble, you've failed to utilise one of your key strengths at that point. 'cept for {{champion:6}}
It's different when the champ's only really a ranged champ by name. Rakan, Urgot and too a lesser extent Graves need to be in melee to be at all effective, so they're essentially melee champions. That means it's fine for to drastically outperform other ranged champs in melee.
TehNACHO (NA)
: Fair, still my belief that when a Rammus or Malphite wants to sit on you though, you're in trouble if your champion isn't specifically equipped to deal with them.
My belief is that if any melee sits on you as a ranged champ you should be in a lot of trouble, you've failed to utilise one of your key strengths at that point.
: Engage tanks shouldn't be able to kill squishies. They already have enough cc.
So an engage tank should get around the squishy's strength by closing to melee then just lose to the squishy's damage even if the squishy fails to properly kite? That's complete bullshit. The player that plays around their strengths better in a 1v1 should generally win, for some champions their strength is 1v1ing and these champions obviously have huge advantages in 1v1s. If we're talking about tank VS squishies there's three distinct possibilities. * Tanks VS ADCs or sustained damage mages: An ADC who plays around their strength correctly and kites properly will win a fight like this. For the ADC to lose they have to fail to play around their strength * Tanks VS burst mages and assassins: I don't know why anyone would expect these matchups to go in favour of burst champs considering that one of a tanks main strengths is surviving burst. What do you expect, if you fail to burst someone tanky down they can just grind you down with their base DPS, they could literally 200 DPS and they would grind you down because your DPS isn't much better if it even is, your a burst and your strength has been nullified. * Tanks VS skirmishers: Nothing to see here, skirmishers like Yi, Fiora and Riven have a huge advantage VS tanks, which makes sense considering they lack either the ranged safety or extreme burst of the other two types.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BAN5PEIa,comment-id=000100010001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T01:45:54.029+0000) > > No thatโ€™s how Juggernauts work. > > Squishies are squishy. I'd argue that juggernauts are just bad design and that doing tons of damage and being tanky is bad. "Squishes are squishy" isn't really an excuse when you can pick juggernauts and do both.
It's almost like the vast majority of squishy champs have a huge strength that Volibear doesn't in their long range and those that don't have masses of mobility to make up for it.
Vekkna (NA)
: >Her percentwise AP scaling is far higher than Zyra's. She's more reliant on AP than Zyra is since her bases are weak. Regardless of if she actually scales better she needs AP to function which holds her mid. I'll just send you here: https://www.reddit.com/r/zyramains/comments/6y5293/3110_but_idk_why_im_winning_all_the_time/dmncwdi/?context=3 Also, it's just absolutely nonsensical to say that lower damage and a lower AP ratio is somehow "better" than higher damage and a higher AP ratio for no other reason than the lower numbers have higher % scaling. You also neglect the fact that Zyra is well-suited to mid lane because she scales far better with exp than most of the champs in the game. She also gets as much damage out of items as most mages most of the time. I think your argument is that Zyra doesn't get a big enough damage increase from moving from support to mid. That might be true. My counterpoints are simply that 1) her damage per point of AP is on par for mid lane, and 2) the poor gold scaling on plants is largely compensated by damage per level that's inflated by layers of multipliers. It's not literally exactly the same kind of damage scaling, but that doesn't automatically mean she gets less damage from a purchase than an opponent or that she's lacking damage late game.
>Also, it's just absolutely nonsensical to say that lower damage and a lower AP ratio is somehow "better" than higher damage and a higher AP ratio for no other reason than the lower numbers have higher % scaling. Her Q's on a lower CD than anything on Zyra's kit, she has a shield that scales up with AP and she's far better at layering her damage across multiple targets than Zyra, considering all of her skills can hit multiple targets (sans passive) while a large percentage of Zyra's damage is on her single target plants and her E is much less likely to hit, let alone hit multiple targets than anything on Ori's kit. Also Ori's passive is probably quite similar damage to a single plant anyway assuming she can land it, if you're PoE and you build Nashor's (which is admittedly niche) then it's probably close to two plants persistently AAing as long as Ori can AA. There's a lot of factors that lead to Ori's damage being a lot closer to Zyra's than you estimate, in many cases even exceeding. >2) the poor gold scaling on plants is largely compensated by damage per level that's inflated by layers of multipliers. Your default assumption seems to be that I'm fine with this and I'd just like to see ratio buffs, which is not at all true. I also want to see Zyra's Q take a base damage/level hit so she has increased reliance on AP and better scaling once she has some with less damage when she doesn't itemise any at all.
Vekkna (NA)
: Heimer's turrets have double the AP scaling as plants, and he needs 320 AP before a turret attack breaks even with the base damage on a lvl 18 plant attack. My point is that base damage is still damage. Multipliers are still there, they're just less dependent on AP. In many situations that's an advantage, not a disadvantage. "Doubling the base damage" isn't the bar for AP scaling. The bar is the nominal ratio, and Zyra's is very much on par with other mages. Let me ask it this way: do you think Orianna scales better with AP than Zyra? Show the numbers.
>Heimer's turrets have double the AP scaling as plants, and he needs 320 AP before a turret attack breaks even with the base damage on a lvl 18 plant attack. And how often do you see Heim played as a support? He can't because he can't abuse high base damages and he doesn't get dicked by low ratios. >Doubling the base damage" isn't the bar for AP scaling. The bar is the nominal ratio, and Zyra's is very much on par with other mages. Using damage to double or ratio to base damage is to only way of measuring this that even remotely makes sense. How else do you compare something like Karthus Q with low overall damage but a short recast to something like Veigar W which is the opposite? >Let me ask it this way: do you think Orianna scales better with AP than Zyra? Show the numbers. Her percentwise AP scaling is far higher than Zyra's. She's more reliant on AP than Zyra is since her bases are weak. Regardless of if she actually scales better she needs AP to function which holds her mid.
Vekkna (NA)
: That's a bit of a canard when it comes to Zyra, tbh. Yeah, it takes 760 AP to double the damage of a plant attack, but you can double that damage by getting a second attack, a second plant (of a different type), or ulting a plant that attacks twice. It's true that a plant attack doesn't scale well with AP in a vaccum, but that doesn't mean that Zyra has poor damage scaling. Part of what has always made her such a reliable damage support is the fact that a large part of her damage scaling is intrinsic to her kit. 114 + .15 AP looks bad on paper, but you get a good ult with 4 plants, and that ability is doing 1539 + 2.0 AP over ~3.5 seconds with a max output of double that. It's also incorrect to say that she scales poorly with AP. In the attainable scenario I mentioned above, you're getting 2.0 AP from plants and 1.8 from spells, which is a total of 3.8 AP on a great combo. Even with a large margin of error, Zyra's total AP ratio for an all-in is on par or ahead of most mages. In fact, her upper limit is one of the highest in the game (...mostly in theory, less in practice).
>That's a bit of a canard when it comes to Zyra, tbh. Yeah, it takes 760 AP to double the damage of a plant attack, but you can double that damage by getting a second attack, a second plant (of a different type), or ulting a plant that attacks twice. That's not how this works in the slightest. If your plant attacks twice you still need 760 AP to double its damage, if you have multiple plants you still need 760 AP, this number never changes because all these things scale plants base damage as well. >It's true that a plant attack doesn't scale well with AP in a vaccum, but that doesn't mean that Zyra has poor damage scaling. Part of what has always made her such a reliable damage support is the fact that a large part of her damage scaling is intrinsic to her kit. That would be her damage scaling with levels and cheap pen items, not with AP. >114 + .15 AP looks bad on paper, but you get a good ult with 4 plants, and that ability is doing 1539 + 2.0 AP over ~3.5 seconds with a max output of double that. Let's break that down, if you have a fairly realistic 400 AP that's still 800 extra damage. The damage is still being dominated by base damage. I don't see what point you're trying to make, but you're failing. >It's also incorrect to say that she scales poorly with AP. In the attainable scenario I mentioned above, you're getting 2.0 AP from plants and 1.8 from spells, which is a total of 3.8 AP on a great combo. If you land this absurd combo you're talking about Zyra likely killed someone with just her bases anyway.
: > Do you remember the matchups and which were best and worst? Most matchups felt pretty similar - the ones that stand out are.... I remember we played her into Galio a number of times and she was able to punish him really hard. Was difficult for him to ever walk to the wave and he had to default to clearing with Q. The other memorable one was Vel'Koz - who'd I expect would do relatively well once he has Lost Chapter and some points in his waveclear, but my ability to play aggressive early made it difficult for him to find a good back to get the item and the sheer number of "tanky" plants that I had made it difficult for a jungler to gank because he couldn't walk up. > As we know, this ended with a nerf to plant hp on champ hits. A common question on reddit and discord was what the playtesters saw in Zyra's shoving and engage deterrence that was overpowered when compared to Heimer, Malz, Anivia, Azir, or Xerath (or Yorick in top). We don't solely balance champions based on power. In Zyra's case, playtesters found her ability to shove along with the difficulty in killing her plants exceedingly frustrating to deal with - moreso than Heimer's turrets or Malzahar/Anivia's waveclear. A lot of those playing against her felt that it wasn't sustainable or healthy gameplay, but also acknowledged that having that many plants probably feels great for the Zyra player. Reducing plant health rather than hitting how many she could have seemed like a sound compromise. > The plant damage per level and damage multipliers make her better than most at turning an xp advantage into damage. Were you noticing a buff to power when ahead (also caused by catchup xp change)? Or were you noticing her damage fall off much harder than before because of the mpen changes? Or both? Hard for me to say if it was a buff to power when ahead because I, admittedly, didn't have a super great read on mid lane Zyra's ahead-case power level on live at the time. That said, I felt like I was able to push a lead pretty well with her if I worked with my jungler to invade, set up/deny vision, and look for picks. Also was very hard for the enemy team to walk into neutral objectives like Baron and Dragon if I had time to set up plants. Super late game fights felt relatively difficult to play well because of the large cast delays on her abilities along with her extreme immobility so I think if I didn't do what I could to close out a game with a lead I'd eventually get outscaled. That said, I didn't notice her damage falling off super hard. > Also, how did you build her? Wondering if you tried a Luden's + Electrocute build to double-down on mid game? Could you increase late-game value by splashing Overgrowth + Font of Life and going Liandry's > Rylai's > Void > GLP? If your damage falls off anyway, you may as well have an Ardent heal for your whole team when they attack anything you hit.> I built her pretty standard mid-lane DoT mage - Morello's for CDR into boots/Liandries/Rylais/Void and spec'd Sorcery/Inspiration - grabbing Arcane Comet, Manaflow Band, Celerity, Scorch, Magical Footwear, and Cosmic Insight. Lane dominance from Comet/Manaflow/Scorch is pretty great on her imo and Celerity really helps her a lot with positioning. Magical Footwear also helps with this and Cosmic Insight provides a lot in terms of CDR. If we had the opportunity to get more games on her I definitely think I should have explored different builds/runes options like the ones you suggested. Unfortunately, at the time we had a _ton _of mid lane test points and didn't get to be as thorough in our testing of Zyra (and Morgana mid) as we would have liked. It's something we're working to get better at. > I feel like Zyra's counterplay there is fair, but it's too exacerbated by layers of cast times, skill delays, and travel times. Do you think there's room to trim the Q delay to .5 sec, lower the self-cc on E, or cut the ult cc delay to 1.5 sec? I personally think there's room to trim some of her cast times - I really noticed them when playing her mid and I totally understand that they feel pretty constraining. :\ Unsure if there's room to actually adjust them. I didn't really inquire much about them with the designer, but it's a conversation I'm willing to bring up. > I haven't tried this yet, but it's on my to-do list. Mostly because the exp advantage makes TP a very attractive option. Ignite is free gold at lvl 3 and 6. Flash is mandatory. Barrier/Heal is helpful late game to survive your own skill delays. > > Going to try TP + Ignite start for most lanes to get an early kill and tp back to lane with an item and xp advantage. Then trade TP for Flash at 8 min and ignite for barrier at 14 min. If losing or really struggling, would probably trade ignite for flash or barrier with 2-min shard. Having swapped to Unsealed Spellbook on my own main - Cassio - I'm pretty sure it's super good on Summoner-reliant champions and would highly recommend trying it out. I feel like it's extreme versatility lends itself well to these champs too as you have called out. > Idk if you saw this comment from a few months back, but do you think these Zyra buffs have done anything to move the needle? Do you theorycraft Zyra to be strong, and is it possible for her to have a place in the mid meta? I think these changes probably have slightly moved the needle, but I think Zyra mid still has some problems that make her less appealing a pick than other mages mid - largely immobility, range, and the ability to truly control the minion wave. I would say that she's a totally fine pick in solo queue, but I don't expect pros to pick her up any time soon - especially in a meta where poke is very powerful. I imagine that Zyra really struggles into poke heavy comps with her limited range and slow movespeed.
>I think these changes probably have slightly moved the needle, but I think Zyra mid still has some problems that make her less appealing a pick than other mages mid - largely immobility, range, and the ability to truly control the minion wave. I would say that she's a totally fine pick in solo queue, but I don't expect pros to pick her up any time soon - especially in a meta where poke is very powerful. I imagine that Zyra really struggles into poke heavy comps with her limited range and slow movespeed. I think her lack of scaling on her main offensive ability is the biggest issue. Her immobility, range and wave control aren't really worse than someone like Anivia, there's just no reason to play it since she doesn't actually gain a large benefit from AP. It takes 760 AP to double the damage her plants deal, that's the biggest issue.
Meddler (NA)
: We'd want the new option to be a reasonable choice on skirmishers if they're facing a tough lane and need to go into resolve to survive it, make it so that's not so punishing a choice you should never do so. Unlikely to be something that's a common default choice for them though, assuming they more often want to be in a more aggressive tree. Possible there's the need for another keystone in Precision. Fiora wise, from another post here we're not currenting buffing Fiora due to a "combination of Tiamat buff, Bramble nerf and generally improving performance as players are picking different runes on her."
>We'd want the new option to be a reasonable choice on skirmishers if they're facing a tough lane and need to go into resolve to survive it, make it so that's not so punishing a choice you should never do so. What use would that serve when Resolve/Precision and Precision/Resolve give the same stat line. It's not like a 3rd rune in Resolve gives any more durability so the gains would be marginal at best.
Talon12 (OCE)
: > * Start the game with a Starforged Plate with the unique active "Increases armour and MR by 20% for 4 seconds, 60 second CD". This effect can be used up to 3 times and the plate builds into 4 items. > {{item:3143}} : Active radius increased by 200 units, for 4 seconds after using the active the crit damage reduction is increased from 20% to 50% > {{item:3065}} : New active: For 4 seconds 25% of all magic damage you and your nearby allies take is converted into healing for you. 60 sec CD. > {{item:3083}} : New active: For 4 seconds you and your nearby allies gain Warmog's Heart even when in combat. 60 sec CD. > {{item:3190}} : Active duration increased to 4 seconds and decay is slowed appropriately, as long as the shield lasts affected targets have 20% increased armour/MR. CD reduced to 60 seconds. Translates as cancer to me.
You're overestimating it because you're looking at the strength of the items and considering that as the strength of the rune. Firstly the rune is fairly weak until you complete the item anyway, a 20% increase in armour and MR is 33% weaker than just the %boost on Aftershock before even considering the 20 flat boost to each and the damage, the only advantage this rune has early is a 1.5 sec increase in duration. Earlygame this rune is pathetic and horribly out-competed by Aftershock. Even in the late game this rune wouldn't necessarily be better than other runes, it has an edge as it should given the early weakness but it's not always going to be stronger than Guardian or Aftershock.
Zerenza (NA)
: The most Petty thing i'v seen in a game so far.
What in the actual fuck? In high elos the only way to get kills outside of teamfights 90% of the time is to use people as bait. Misplays are generally not super common because people understand their limits better than lower ranks, so the only way to kill someone is to make them think they have a favourable trade when they don't, to bait them in some way. Low HP allies is one of the most common baits.
iLBGAMing (EUW)
: [Discussion] List your Favourite Champions by each role
Top: {{champion:113}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:102}} Jungle: {{champion:113}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:28}} Mid: {{champion:134}} {{champion:143}} ADC: {{champion:22}} Support: {{champion:37}} {{champion:40}}
: I think resolve should be divided into two trees, one for engage and one for peeling. Engage tree can have aftershock and grasp (although it would likely need to be reworked). Peeling tree can have Guardian.
Agreed other than Grasp needing a rework, we'd have a new keystone slot to work into a bruiser rune and Grasp has a niche, for some of the other runes Offensive tank tree * Unflinching Defensive tree * Font of Life * Conditioning * Overgrowth * Revitalise * Second Wind Please just kill * Demolish * Iron Skin * Mirror Shell Since there's obviously a lot of free runeslots now here's some ideas for what could be done with them -------------------------------- Offencive Keystone * Your AAs build stacks, deal bonus damage per stack based off of your max HP Basic runes * Gain a burst of MS for a short time after damaging a target, has a CD per target * Heal for a percentage of your maximum HP after dealing at least 25% of a targets max HP, CD per target. * Dealing damage grants bonus stacking resistances, taking damage grants bonus stacking adaptive AD/AP * When you drop bellow 30% HP gain a burst of tenacity and resistances, 30 second CD * Deal bonus damage for a duration after CCing targets * The last target you attacked within 5 seconds deals reduced damage For this tree I think many of these effects would make sense being stronger on melees than ranged ----------------------------------------- Defencive Keystones * Start the game with a Starforged Plate with the unique active "Increases armour and MR by 20% for 4 seconds, 60 second CD". This effect can be used up to 3 times and the plate builds into 4 items. {{item:3143}} : Active radius increased by 200 units, for 4 seconds after using the active the crit damage reduction is increased from 20% to 50% {{item:3065}} : New active: For 4 seconds 25% of all magic damage you and your nearby allies take is converted into healing for you. 60 sec CD. {{item:3083}} : New active: For 4 seconds you and your nearby allies gain Warmog's Heart even when in combat. 60 sec CD. {{item:3190}} : Active duration increased to 4 seconds and decay is slowed appropriately, as long as the shield lasts affected targets have 20% increased armour/MR. CD reduced to 60 seconds. You can only build one of these items. * No idea's for a second rune, maybe you'd want something to favour Juggernauts a bit here Basic Runes * Take reduced damage from targets who attack from over 400 range away * Gain a large burst of bonus movement speed towards allies who drop bellow 30% HP, 30 sec CD per ally * Gain bonus armour based off MR and bonus MR based off Armour --------------------------- If anyone has other ideas I'd love to see them as well. Obviously these are just ideas too, may not be perfect but I do believe they'd make a better foundation than what we have now.
: I agree stacking Sona's spells to have bonuses like this adds more depth to her playstyle. However, I think you can go a bit further. Instead of spamming just one ability for the 3x Bonus, it should be possible to combine different basic abilities together as well. For example, you can combine Q>W>E for a minimal bonus of all three spells. Other Additional Combinations: * Q>W>W * Q>E>E * Q>Q>W * Q>Q>E * W>E>E * W>W>E This way players can find intuitive ways to use the bonuses for specific situations.
>Instead of spamming just one ability for the 3x Bonus, it should be possible to combine different basic abilities together as well. For example, you can combine Q>W>E for a minimal bonus of all three spells. That was actually what I meant, sorry if it was unclear. You're always casting 3 spells, so all of those combos would be there. A Q/W/E would slow for 40%, reduce damage by 25% and deal 25% bonus damage. A Q/Q/E would deal 25% bonus damage in an AoE and slow for 40% in an AoE, that's actually why Q2 bonus is the AoE. >This way players can find intuitive ways to use the bonuses for specific situations. Yeh, that was pretty much the point. I wanted to add depth without massively hiking the mechanical skill needed to use Sona. In my opinion the best way to do this is to add a lot of mutually exclusive options so the champion has the potential to do a lot of things but requires the player playing them to have a deep understanding of their champ.
: my (arguably extreme) Sona rework.
I don't mind some of the ideas but the kit seems disjointed and not really like Sona to me. Still it's probably better than what we have now so I'll give the upvote. What I'd do however is this ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Passive: Powerchord Sona plays her basic spells as a three spell Powerchord, after casting her first and second spell she puts her basic spells on a 0.5 second global cooldown and after casting her third spell Sona puts all of her basic spells on a longer cooldown, additionally if Sona doesn't cast a spell for 2 seconds during a powerchord all of her spells go on this same longer cooldown. Only the first spell Sona plays costs mana and her basic spells mana cost scales with her level. Additional spells hitting the same target within a single Powercord have only 50% of their normal effect. After completing a Powerchord Sona's next basic attack becomes empowered gaining additional magic damage and bonus effects based on what spells she played during her Powerchord. * Qx1: Powerchord deals 25% bonus damage * Qx2: Powerchord's damage and effect are applied in a 200 unit raduis AoE around the target struck * Qx3: Powerchord deals an additional 40% bonus damage, additive with the 25% from Q1 for a total 65% bonus * Wx1: Powerchord reduces target damage output by 25% for 2 seconds * Wx2: Powerchord reduces target damage output by an additional 25% for a total of 50% and lasts for 3 seconds * Wx3: Powerchord reduces target damage output by an additional 25% for a total of 75% and silences the target for the first 1.5 seconds * Ex1: Powerchord slows the target by 40% for 2 seconds * Ex2: Powerchord slows the target by an additional 20% for a total of 60% and additionally grounds the target for the duration * Ex3: Powerchord roots for 1 second after it hits and the slow is extended by 0.5 seconds, lasting 1.5 seconds after the root ends Magic Damage: 10/lv+(25% AP) Powerchord CD: 14/11/8/5 at 1/6/11/16 (affected by CDR) Manacost: 80/100/120/140 at 1/6/11/16 ------------------------------------- Q: Sona fires a line missile with a small AoE on target hit which deals magic damage and debuffs enemies hit. Enemies attacked by Sona or her allies with a debuff on them take bonus magic damage. Damage: 30/80/130/180/230+(60% AP) Debuff damage: 4/13/22/31/40+(20% AP) Range: 900 (slightly shorter than Karma Q) Radius: 200 Debuff duration: 2 seconds ---------------------- W: Sona heals herself and a target ally, after 1 second if Sona is still within the cast range and both her and her ally are alive both gain a shield equal to the heal. This shield can stack when a target is healed multiple times. If Sona does not have an ally nearby she can self cast the heal and always gains a shield for half the listed value after 1 second. Heal/Shield Value: 15/40/65/90/115+(30% AP) Shield Duration: 2 seconds Range: 600 units ---------------------------- E: Sona grants herself and a target ally flat bonus MS for 3 seconds, repeat casts on the same target extend this duration by 1.5 seconds but do not increase the MS amount, Sona will always receive a 1.5 second extension for casts past the first. Additionally targets under this effect gain slow resistance. Flat MS: 28/36/44/52/60+(0.1 AP) Slow Resist: 15/20/25/30/35% Range: 600 units Duration: 3 seconds -------------------- R: Same as live sans the CD reduction on her basic spells since this is now incorporated into the way her passive works.
FireDrizzle (EUNE)
: Grasp on pbe not just favouring fighters
Fighters generally don't need AD/AP, they typically want AS and on-hits, with AD just being one of the on-hits they could gain. There are exceptions to this, but most of them are currently happy with Electrocute, Phase Rush or Kleptomancy. If Riot wants to make a Resolve keystone which favours fighters they need to do something like "your auto attacks deal bonus damage based off your HP which stacks per attack", rather than just being time gated. Something like this would favour bruisers because tanks generally aren't going to have the AS to use it. Also this rune should be introduced as a 4th keystone, not as a replacement to Grasp, grasp should be positioned as an alternative option for tanks and juggernauts more than fighters IMO. Removing diversity of tank keystones to help bruisers just kicks the problem down the line.
: Firing CertainlyT
He needs to be paired with a conservative designer who can veto his ideas when they get too extreme.
: Look at the support list of OP.GG. It is DOMINATED by tank supports; that is half the reason that Leona is in the no. 1 spot. Tank supports _aren't getting 2-shot in this meta._ The ONLY support in the top 10 that isn't a tank is Janna, who, as the peel queen, can disengage these tanks. The other half is- Leona is an ultra-early kills support, in a 'meta'where snowballing is paramount. The fact that a gank down bot will give my jungler and adc like 4 eyeballs each and 2 stacks of whatever else they're running, ontop of the gold, increases the impact of her early game success way more than her kit was balanced around. I don't want to see _her_ nerfed because her winrate is a symptom of a more widespread disease, and I desperately want that disease to be tackled. I mean, nerf her, fine, she won't be permabanned and I can play her when I want. But Riot's got a bad habit of hotfixing champs, fixing issues, and then forgetting they exist.
>It is DOMINATED by tank supports; that is half the reason that Leona is in the no. 1 spot. Tank supports aren't getting 2-shot in this meta. The ONLY support in the top 10 that isn't a tank is Janna, who, as the peel queen, can disengage these tanks. Clearly heal/shield items are a problem right now though.
: The little love tap to Leona hasn't done anything
Next patch she gets indirectly buffed by her competition getting nerfed. Got to be honest, I have no idea what Riot's balance team has been smoking this preseason.
MerloJohn (EUW)
: Heimerdinger nerf 8.1
Even if Riot thinks he is a bit strong these nerfs seem overly harsh. Half the damage off the beam is insane. Seems like the Sona nerfs from last patch all over again to me.
EkyonKun (NA)
: The plan was giving more safety to weak early laners. Unfortunately, this meta doesn't allow such strategies. If you're not dominating by 10 minutes, you aren't a deciding factor in victory most of the time. Remember, this is 10% less damage to CHAMPIONS, not everything. Imagine if the average game length was 10 minutes longer. This would be great on scaling champions such as {{champion:75}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:10}} or even champions who are more useful for their CC rather than their early game damage {{champion:154}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:14}} just as some examples who who MIGHT take it. The rune itself is a good idea, it just has the same problem as Gathering Storm. The meta just doesn't suit it.
>Remember, this is 10% less damage to CHAMPIONS, not everything. Imagine if the average game length was 10 minutes longer. This rune doesn't need longer games, it needs closer games. Even then I don't think anyone would run Body if the effect remains variable from somewhat negative to marginally positive.
: Jesus christ what the fuck is Zoe?
Jesus christ what the fuck is Zoe? 1. A CertainlyT champion 2. A mistake Some would say that's only a single point however.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lupan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PtVTI33V,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T19:41:09.484+0000) > > Quite fair except for that you guys forgot to mention Yasuo is immobilized during ult as well and would take multiple tower shots without means to avoid/dodge it oh no wow 2 tower shots. How about NOT DIVING UNDER FUCKING TOWER LIKE EVERY OTHER SQUISHY MELEE!?!??!?!?!
I actually don't disagree with the guy, Yas's shield activating on his R to towers and specifically on his ult only would be fine if he didn't get placed outside of tower range. If we just had his shield instantly pop when he ulted but he lost the tower safety net that would be far fairer. If he takes a dumb dive he's at least being dropped in a position where you can CC him under an amped tower since it's already shot once.
abca98 (EUW)
: Well, first examples I can think of are {{champion:240}} and you still tank the first shots, except you lose aggro, and {{champion:80}} , and he can only block the first (maybe another one with W) Using {{item:2420}} or {{item:3157}} can also help. But all of them have the risk of suffering damage while Yasuo presses R and hits you while he is suspended faaaar away from the tower.
You're not quite making the right comparison. Yas getting placed outside of tower range would be like Kled being automatically pushed out of tower range if he was dismounted under tower, not like Kled dropping tower aggro.
: Honestly I don't have this problem with Yasuo. Look at a champ who does a somewhat similar thing: Malphite. When ulting someone near the edge of tower range he has the option to hit them with the edge of his ult while still being outside of tower range. This is because he has control of where he ends up, and it is something a good malphite player will do. Yasuo on the other hand has no control over where he ends up, so it does make sense for him to be placed outside turret range because any champ who can control which side they end up on will try to place themselves outside of turret range. It makes more sense for an ability to act in a way that players normally would than to punish good players because the ability isn't flexible. Yasuo's ult doesn't do anything players wouldn't do if they got to choose which side they ended up on, which anyone with a ground targeted dash DOES get to choose. Now some people might argue that it should act like Akali ult, always putting you on the other side of them. However you have to keep in mind Akali ult doesn't CC herself under enemy turrets. As such she isn't actually being as heavily punished as Yasuo is, who would CC's himself for a full second under turret. When you consider that a single turret shot does more damage than Yasuo's ult does in the early-mid game it would just make Yasuo never use his ult on someone under turret, which is kinda dumb considering Yasuo is meant to be a pretty decent diver despite his inability to break aggro. If your ult is already locked behind use conditions it is kinda dumb for you to not want to use it to get a kill. ------------------------------- Frankly I am not a big fan of Yasuo, but his ult placing him outside of turret range if possible makes sense when you consider that it is just doing what any player would naturally do if they had control over his ult placement, especially since ulting under turret makes you take more damage than they take.
>Honestly I don't have this problem with Yasuo. Look at a champ who does a somewhat similar thing: Malphite. When ulting someone near the edge of tower range he has the option to hit them with the edge of his ult while still being outside of tower range. This is because he has control of where he ends up, and it is something a good malphite player will do. This is the wrong comparison. Yasuo's ult is not at all like Malphite's ult in the way that matters for this discussion, casting parameters. Yasuo's ult is a point and click, Malphite's ult is a ground targeted AoE. Malphite's ult can be aimed anywhere, it's up to the player aiming it. Yasuo's ult can only be targeted at enemy champions. A fairer comparison is Vi's ultimate. Vi points and clicks and always dashes to the enemy champion all the time. She doesn't care if there's a tower there, she goes to the enemy. When Yas uses his ult in the open this is exactly how it behaves, he blinks directly in front of the enemy champion. What we're asking for is complete consistency, as a point and click Yas's R should always act like Vi R, Zed R, Akali R, Camille R ect. He should always dash to the same position relative to the enemy champs. As with all the others if he wants to end up outside of tower range he should have to target an enemy outside of tower range, just like every other point and click in the game.
: That is not what I said at all, you can stop making hyperbolic statements now. Not a single one of those besides the Frozen Mallet and Trinity force gives health. Trinity force is extremely expensive as well as the spellblade passive is wasted on many marksmen and I already addressed that Frozen mallet is by far the inferior of Black Cleaver.
>With no slightly tanky alternatives left open to Marksmen, I am fully against this. You said that. You said exactly that.
: Can Cosmic Insight perhaps get some decent competition?
>Celestial Body is just straight shit. Your damage goes down to 90% effectiveness for 10 minutes against enemy champions and monsters. While you do permanently gain 100 health, it just isn't worth it. You surrender your ability to actually deal damage early game to get 100 health, which is worth 266.6... gold, and is literally outclassed by the Resolve and Inspiration-Resolve runes. The only time I can really see something like this being half-useful is when using Resolve-Inspiration + this mastery, giving you 245 health. But still, the amount of damage you lose early game makes it unacceptable to use in 99% of situations. Here's a suggestion for revamping the mastery, while keeping its core identity the same(Self-granting early-game risks for permanent benefits): I'd like to point out that most early game champions have something like 60 AD. When you run this mastery you essentially lose at least 6 AD from your pool of 60. 6 AD is already worth 210 gold, just short of the 266.6 you gain before even considering the base damage drops. Words can not explain how shitty Celestial Body actually is. It's the only rune in the game which actively hurts you. If you're running Celestial Body you're actually weaker than if you just didn't have a rune. Unfortunately none of your suggestions actually fix the problem. A rune which forces you to give up early power will always be shit. Celestial Body just needs to be completely reworked into something that doesn't shaft you when you take it.
: With no slightly tanky alternatives left open to Marksmen, I am fully against this. Melee already has {{item:3053}} the only other relevant stats on marksmen would be between {{item:3071}} and a very distant 2nd of {{item:3022}} . So no... {{item:3044}} item trees are too valuable for marksmen to let go. Especially for marksmen that need to be able to kite in an increasingly mobile game. EDIT: Please look at responses before you post again. Also I would like to make a statement that for everyone of you complaining about a somewhat tanky item on a marksmen, others are crying about {{item:3147}} being too OP on marksmen. So what the consensus is on the board is to nerf the marksmen class in all aspects besides mobility. That is if you aren't talking about the Phage movement passive, which would only be granted on a largely wasted, highly expensive item such as Tri-Force, or the largely inferior Frozen Mallet. No tanky items =/= No defensive items, tanks build substantially more HP than resistances, as resistances have diminishing returns. I am talking specifically about the HP granted by the Phage item tree.
{{item:3026}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3156}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3111}} {{item:3047}} . There's absolutely no defensive items for them to build though, none at all.
: Black Cleaver and LW items should be unique
Considering Sterak's and Hex don't stack I don't see why these should.
: That's the thing, some champions like Jayce probably really do need this nerf, but other champions are going to really struggle to get by with this nerf, I hate to bring her up but Sona for example is going to be hurting with this.
It's almost like they shouldn't gut a champion right before they nerf them in 3 indirect ways.
: Tanks need their %max health damage toned down across the board
Toning down their damage means that they need even more CC and even more absurd bulk to make up for the loss in power. It actually makes tanks worse to play against. When tanks get more CC your actual window for reaction goes down and trying to duel them becomes more frustrating. A better solution is to allow tanks to have decent damage over time but cut their CC and durability a bit so that there's actual options against them.
: It feels like there's been a trend of giving damage to champions Riot has had trouble making scale in a satisfactory manner otherwise. Tanks make games last too long when they survive for more than a few seconds, so many of them have had their damage increased instead, and now Janna has an on-hit damage effect (!) instead of shields that scale too well with the healing/shielding stat. Whether or not this feeds into the larger problem of damage creep (I think it does), damage is not meant to be a strength of Janna's, and the fact that she's given damage as a reward, instead of more CC or utility, doesn't really feel appropriate to me.
>Tanks make games last too long when they survive for more than a few seconds, so instead many of them have had their damage increased instead What world do you live in? The tank rework took 3 typically offensive tanks and butchered their damage.
: Do you think the forbidden idol nerf on top of the sona nerf will be too much for sona?
The nerf iteself was too much for Sona. Of course it is, they just don't care.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5JAWLQQ0,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-08T05:06:52.640+0000) > > 9 actually. Youre probably looking at op gg. Thats out of 17 as well. Is it bad to be looking at op.gg? Please let me know if they have faulty information and where I can find more accurate numbers, I don't want to be spreading misinformation
It's a good idea to at least cross check another site though https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/detailed/ Lolalytics says there are 6 botlaners, 5 of whom have relevant pick rates above a 50% winrate, so I'd say the point's still relevant.
Scarland (NA)
: So are we gonna do something about Ezreal or do you guys just give absolutely zero fucks?
Na, they're just going to nerf Sona again (I wish this was a joke).
: Meddler said: > Worth calling out the LDR change in particular, which is that the Giant Slayer passive now requires the target have 2000 more health than the user to get the maximum damage increase. The way I read that is: they get the same max % bonus, but only when there's a bigger hp difference. So, exactly what you said, unless there's something I'm missing.
That's what's on the PBE now. At the time I posted this it was increased to a max 25% at 2000 HP difference.
: LDR buff rationale "fighters are usually only around 1000 health up on ADCs" - Meddler
Not to mention ADCs don't currently need increased damage in any case. Their damage output is already unrivalled and gamebreaking. If they want to do this change what they should do is just a straight 1:2 scale where LDR gets a straight nerf. ADC items are out of line anyway, so this would be a solid start.
: I agree that Syndra seems to have lost quite a bit of power. I think there are a couple reasons we need to be careful about buffing her however. 1) She was obviously a dominant pick in pro play for almost the entirety of last season, and previous nerfs (such as the W radius reduction) seemed dent her priority but not remove her from relevance. It still remains to be seen just how weak Syndra needs to be in solo Q to not be a pro pick, although the small sample of Kespa Cup seems to indicate we may be there. 2) In general Comet/Aery mages just seem to be stronger than Electrocute mages currently in Mid. Ideally Electrocute would be a strong option for burst mages, and as such I'd expect it to be Syndra's primary keystone. Right now it seems the Domination tree's non-keystone runes just don't match up to the corresponding options in Sorcery for mages Mid, and as a result burst mages are struggling compared to their more poke focused opponents. I think we should probably address this issue and see where Syndra stands before buffing Syndra individually.
>1) She was obviously a dominant pick in pro play for almost the entirety of last season, and previous nerfs (such as the W radius reduction) seemed dent her priority but not remove her from relevance. It still remains to be seen just how weak Syndra needs to be in solo Q to not be a pro pick, although the small sample of Kespa Cup seems to indicate we may be there. Casual play needs to take priority. Champions should not be left gutted in ranked because of a very small subsection of games. Syndra's been excessively weak in ranked for a long time. She's needed buffs for a long time. The preseason isn't an excuse, you just need to stop with this BS policy.
Cocho (NA)
: https://imgur.com/GcwueJP lol
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sona/ lol
: Personally, I felt like nerfing her was warranted. She has been sitting at a high win rate for a while and she received a substantial amount of lane power from Klepto, Scorch, and Manaflow Band. With that being said, I didn't really like the direction as it made her lane phase even more volatile. She wasn't picked during pro play despite it being an Ardent Censer meta (my opinion is due to her lane phase being unreliable) and I feel like this pushes her even further away. From playtesting the changes, the mana nerfs were quite noticeable in the lane phase, but feels like it goes back to normal once you build Tear.
>She has been sitting at a high win rate for a while It's almost like easy champions typically have high winrates. >From playtesting the changes, the mana nerfs were quite noticeable in the lane phase, but feels like it goes back to normal once you build Tear. [The initial winrate change on live](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sona/) suggests these changes were a fair bit more than noticeable, more in the realms of an absolute unwarranted gutting. >Personally, I felt like nerfing her was warranted. Why weren't the nerfs to Sona held until after the masses of indirect nerfs on the PBE went through anyway? She's already one of the worst champs in the game post nerf, likely the worst support and if these changes go through she'll probably just end up being the worst champion in the game by a large margin. Isn't this something that Riot's specifically said they wanted to avoid?
: > [{quoted}](name=Ekitaih,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiuYdAPO,comment-id=000b00000000000200000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T17:39:11.768+0000) > > Out of curiousity, is there a way you can take a picture or anything for the current stats? Anywhere that I look on this site shows that she's currently sitting at a 50-51% win rate for the current patch. LankPants already linked it. And no. Lolalytics is just predicting. It is not stating out for tomorrow or looking at another time zone. The Winrate is 45.05% RIGHT NOW. Of course it is early but that is a HUGE drop in winrate. Just keep watching that graph. All the 12/07 means is that they are looking for it to be that when the day ends because of current data.
The reason why it said 7/12 for me is because Australia is about 14 hours ahead of the earliest American timezone, so it is and has been the 7th for about 12 hours.
: I personally think Sona was in need of nerfs. Runes Reforged pushed her to one of the top champion outliers thanks to synergies in the Sorcery/Inspiration tree. Despite coming off as heavy handed, I think the nerfs were reasonable in our playtests.
They're not fucking reasonable. They're a complete gutting. Also the fact you nerfed Sona right before nerfs to all of her items and runes despite saying you wanted to avoid exactly this 2-3 months ago strikes of complete hypocrisy on the balance teams part.
Ekitaih (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Darkeus Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiuYdAPO,comment-id=000b0000000000020000,timestamp=2017-12-06T17:05:41.784+0000) > > Fair points. But it is showing a disturbing statistical trend, whether it is too early or not. Early evidence is not good for her right now. Not going to claim victory yet (Not like I want to. I just want my main back not watch as she becomes worthless) but the stats seem to be skewing towards exactly what most of us have been saying. Out of curiousity, is there a way you can take a picture or anything for the current stats? Anywhere that I look on this site shows that she's currently sitting at a 50-51% win rate for the current patch.
https://imgur.com/a/rOUZp That's what I see right now, but as I said it's almost certainly better to wait at least a few days before drawing conclusions, this is just the preliminary number.
Ekitaih (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiuYdAPO,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T16:42:27.313+0000) > > [The one day data from lolalytics on patch 7.14](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Sona/) is already at 47.14%. It's not the be-all and end-all and one day is subject to fluctuation, but it's certainly not a good sign. The problem with this data is that it's skewed. The reason it's skewed is because it doesn't take into consideration any variables. Plus there is a very low amount of games that have been analyzed. The variables that I mentioned are these: 1. Summoners are used to a certain way the champ is played. They have been playing this champ quite a lot and any change can have a big impact on how they play. They haven't had an adequate amount of time to appropriately compensate for the nerf. 2. As you and I have said, it hasn't had enough games to offer an accurate summation of the champ. 3. People are aware of the nerf and they are taking advantage of that fact. Ultimately people haven't quite adjusted to the new Sona, so I don't believe we'll get accurate data until probably a week or so. We'll see in time. She could very well drop this low, but I don't believe this will be the case. If so, I'm usually one to admit when I'm wrong. So we shall see! c: {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
>1. Summoners are used to a certain way the champ is played. They have been playing this champ quite a lot and any change can have a big impact on how they play. They haven't had an adequate amount of time to appropriately compensate for the nerf. Irrelevant. The way Sona is played hasn't changed, she's just weaker. >2. As you and I have said, it hasn't had enough games to offer an accurate summation of the champ. Correct. That's why I'd wait at least 3-4 days before calling anything definitive. >3. People are aware of the nerf and they are taking advantage of that fact. If people taking advantage of the Sona nerfs causes her to fall to 47% winrate it shows the nerfs were to harsh. This is another non-point.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
Thoughts on Sona? To me it already seemed like the nerfs on 7.14 were way too much but then a whole new set of indirect nerfs shows up on the PBE which are likely to take her from overnerfed to unplayable. Isn't this what you said you were trying to avoid when you were holding off on Janna nerfs with Censor? Why the massive hypocrisy now?
: > [{quoted}](name=RedCyclone,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiuYdAPO,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-12-06T14:23:48.104+0000) > > I'll be monitoring her winrates for the next few days > > The moment she goes below 50% I am going to write up a storm Get ready soon. I predict it will be below 50% by tomorrow, maybe even tonight, IMO.
[The one day data from lolalytics on patch 7.14](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Sona/) is already at 47.14%. It's not the be-all and end-all and one day is subject to fluctuation, but it's certainly not a good sign.
FireDrizzle (EUNE)
: I dont think Grasp needs any more power and this will favour champs who scale with AP or AD on a resolve keystone, which is weird. Cho with 7000hp could have 112 free ap with this.
Grasp straight up needs more power. It's hard outclassed by Aftershock.
Penns (EUW)
: What exactly makes "all fighters unplayable"?
Jayce, Panth, GP, Rengar and the way Wukong is played currently do not constitute fighters.
ShadeDi (EUW)
: Is taking sorc shoes over defensive boots a good idea?
Assuming you're talking about mages, defensive boots outpace Sorcs only when they're in a highly advantageous scenario. If you're VS all AD then Tabi do tend to be better than Sorcs by quite a bit. Mercs are significantly weaker and their use case is less clear, but they can be good into AP+lockdown heavy comps although this use case is much rarer than the one for Tabi. Sorcs are actually one of the highest damage options avalible to mages, VS a squishy target they can increase your damage by around 10% which makes them amongst the best damage/gold items in the game. Giving up Sorcs is a huge price because of this.
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LankPants

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