: I highly disagree on Leona, she needs a modernization to her kit due to how binary it is.
Her kit's a lot like Ashe's, it's simple and that's what makes it excellent. It's a high risk kit, it has a single goal sure, but it's not like it's Veigar levels of "Nuke or be useless". You really want to get an engage in as Leona, but you can also function as a peeling tank.
Rioter Comments
Doozku (NA)
: Not to say all rework a work like this. {{champion:91}}'s rework redefined his play style while {{champion:107}}'s didn't. Guess which rework was better.
How did Talon's rework redefine his playstyle? Before he was a super bursty mobile assassin who typically controlled the game with his early dominance via roams, now he's a super bursty mobile assassin who typically controls the game with his early dominance via roams. Talon is still basically the same as he was in terms of playstyle. Rengar's also destined to be a toxic lump of trash until Riot removes his instakill. He's a champ who's very in need of a large scale rework eventually.
: And you cannot really consider Sion a rework Original sion was literally made as a joke they just decided it was time to do something about it and make him an actual champion Though that is a long time ago now and he could use a small update to modernize him a bit The current tank update would have been a perfect time His kit doesn't really need any changes, just a few touch ups and modernization would have made him perfect again Imo a far better candidate then sejuani who would arguably needed more work then what the tank update offers in order to satisfy her player base theme and niche
I actually don't think Sejuani needed much of an update at all. All she needed was a small buff to her passive IMO, it was honestly underwhelming and she was a clearly underpowered champ anyway, it would have been a great time just to touch her passive up a bit. Just something like "Sejuani gains armour equal to 5+0.003(HP) and MR equal to 0.003(HP), this bonus is increased by 50% for every enemy champion Sejuani has CCed" would have been great. Just a simple upgrade that played to her theme and role rather than a full overhaul.
: Class Updates shouldn't be used to redefine champions
At bare minimum if they are going are going to try to redefine champions (which to be clear they shouldn't) they should at least pick champions who actually need to be redefined. If 6 months ago you asked me to name 5 tank champions who I thought would be the least valuble to work on I think I would have said something like Sion>Poppy>Zac>Sejuani>Leona. I think the only moderately justifiable choice of tank to work on for one of these large scope reworks was Maokai. I'd personally say they went the absolute wrong direction for the tank reworks however. Rather than trying to do an in-depth rework on 3 champs who didn't warrant it anyway they should have looked at small scale updates (like the Amumu one) for 6 or 7. The thing about tanks right now is that they're either already pretty solid as in the cases of {{champion:12}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:154}} or they're utterly abysmal and need larger work like {{champion:31}} {{champion:3}} (old) {{champion:54}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:223}} . The only tank I think falls between them and would have benefited from changes on this scope is {{champion:98}} , but I think it's still too soon after his rework for Riot to admit it's anything other than perfect. IMO what they should have done is smaller scope changes for Amumu, Gragas, Leona, Maokai, Naut and Sej, I don't even think Zac needed smaller scope changes. They also should have bundled Galio with this and marketed him as part of the tank update rather than a sole rework. No actual changes other than a later release date, just make that the focus of the rework rather than trying to work on tanks who don't need it.
: >Mordekaiser was shoved into a lane and position that none of his player base wanted. He was given abilities that interacted with teammates and the ability to control dead dragons. So he did get more ghosts to play with. Mordekaiser was given very little counterplay and none of his previous issues were really solved. Where was his old lane & position ??? What's was his identy ? i see many b*tching for him... but nobody say what's he should be. >Garen was given a new passive, true damage against Villians. He also gained the ability to do more damage while spinning. However he can't control who the villian is, nor was he given any way to reliably get to the villian. So unless Garen is actively fighting the villian he doesn't deal tons of damage, but if the enemy is the villian they stand little chance of beating Garen by themselves. Once again Garen gained no counterplay and lost input. His whole kit is basic and troublesome to play and play against. >If you look forward at the upcoming tank rework Sejuani looks to be ready to repeat this problem. Her ult is losing much of its power and so is her empowered Auto. Instead she is getting the ability to have allies get an opponent ready to be stunned. Sejuani is both losing counter play and player agency, with one ability/passive getting most of her power. I think most here don't understand this rework goal...
>I think most here don't understand this rework goal... I fully understand it but it's a bad goal.
Meddler (NA)
: What's on your mind?
Why on earth is Sejuani's W physical damage? This just makes no god damn sense from a balance and design perspective. Magic damage better slots her in to a role as a late game team fighter and synergises better with items like Abyssal and Liandry's giving her better offensive build paths.
: First off, thanks very much for linking to your quote source. It brings a joyful tear to my eye whenever I see anyone do that. :') As someone else in the thread mentioned, that article you linked is about how games with different champions should feel different from each other. Like, there being a Blitzcrank in your game means it's different than if it was a Soraka, or a Leona, etc., etc. Ideally, champions each bring a different flavor to their role, so that you can adapt your strategy to what you're facing. If the only real difference between champions is power level, then you just pick who has the best numbers, vs picking a champ who does something unique that you enjoy. But anyway, I won't just rehash the article. Let me try and answer your actual critique, which sounds like something along the lines of "Why is it ok that, in a game of 130+ champions, I see the same ones a lot more than others?" (Feel free to let me know if this isn't your question) Champions can be popular for a lot of different reasons. Sometimes it's definitely because they're too strong - if a character has a 75% winrate, you'd best believe everyone wants in on that elo train. But othertimes maybe its because that character is really fun to play, or has a really strong thematic that resonates with players, or because they counter something else in the meta. A champion being popular doesn't necessarily mean they need nerfs, but it probably means we should take a closer look and try and figure out WHY they're so popular. It's very important that all champions have meaningful strengths and weaknesses, but it's not as important that all champs have an equal playrate. There will always be favorites. 10 bans will probably make it easier to get rid of that one particular champ who always seems to be a thorn in your side. For me it's Caitlyn. Laning against Caitlyn tilts me instantly and I fly into an uncontrollable rage and tower dive at level 2.
>It's very important that all champions have meaningful strengths and weaknesses, but it's not as important that all champs have an equal playrate. There will always be favorites. We know, Lee Sin's been your favourite for years now, we're all sick of it. It's good to see Riot's learned nothing at all about PR since the whole FizzEnthusiast fiasco, always entertaining to see the comedy of errors when Riot tries to address their favourite champion. >But anyway, I won't just rehash the article. Let me try and answer your actual critique, which sounds like something along the lines of "Why is it ok that, in a game of 130+ champions, I see the same ones a lot more than others?" (Feel free to let me know if this isn't your question) We're well beyond that point now. Lee Sin's pickrate is now higher than the bottom 24 junglers combined. It's also higher than the next 2 highest pickrate junglers, Graves' and Elise's pickrates combined. He does all of this with a sizable 26% banrate too, giving him the 6th highest stable ban rate (sans Xalya and Rakan) of all champions. Lee Sin is picked or banned in 3/4s of games. This is just out of hand. It's not OK in any sense of the word.
: She's not out of meta. She's just not Jungle Queen anymore, but she still does have the best kit for Jungling in the entire game. Not too mention she's still played frequently to high success.
Go look at Season 5. She was legit garbage throughout, like completely unplayable at all levels. This has never been true for Lee Sin.
: tanks do way to much damage
>im sorry but if im building damage and your not you should not be able to hit me with three attacks and drop me to half health. "If I'm building damage and not durability you shouldn't be able to hurt me". There's a serious lack of logic of any kind in that statement.
: Which champion is currently permabanned in your games?
: Maokai's new ult is going to be insane counterengage, zoning and for displacing teamfights
You can outrun the ult from ~100 units in front of Maokai. It's an example of a spell with virtually no use cases, at best You'll see Maokai's W-Ring to extend the snare a little.
UrZedM8 (NA)
: They aren't going to look at low elo bans though. So there probably won't be any changes to Yasuo lol.
Sciela (NA)
: Riot knows Lee is broken. They openly admitted it a while ago on the forums, and also said they will never significantly nerf him because he makes money at LC$ -- of course, that post was deleted, and I'm sure that guy was fired.
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6EEk9efX-musings-on-fun-and-clunkiness?comment=00000000 Post was never deleted.
: Tell everyone how to beat your main.
{{champion:113}} : Legit just don't be bad. You don't have to do anything special, you're basically guaranteed to win early, just don't give her free opportunities to get into the game. {{champion:39}} : Watch your friendly minions HP, don't stand near dying minions, pay attention to yours and her HP, be aware that if you're significantly higher than her you're very vulnerable to ganks. If she is low you need to get out a ward ASAP.
Penns (EUW)
: Fizz gives up a 370+% AP scaling combo to build full AD/tank with his meta build
Fizz will always be a cancerous champion, AP or tank as long as he keeps his E.
Lexy123 (EUNE)
: 1000/136=7.3529 Anything higher is high playrate and anything lower low playrate. The end.
The words you're looking for are above average and bellow average. Something that's above average doesn't have to be high, it can be about average but marginally above. In Ivern's case he's bellow average pickrate but only marginally so.
Lugg (NA)
: You failed math didn't you? You can't have a higher number than 1 if you have more than 100 champs. .7% is the correct number. Go find a math wiz and confirm.
>You can't have a higher number than 1 if you have more than 100 champs. 10 champions per game buddy. The formula is 10/136, 10 for the number of champs per game and 136 for the total number. This gives 0.0735, or 7.35% pickrate per champ.
: > [{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sK88G2KZ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-04-23T15:31:28.539+0000) > > pick rate of junglers: > {{champion:107}} 6.04% win rate 45.4% > {{champion:76}} 5.78% win rate 47.55% > so considering 23 junglers have pick rates of 2% or higher , ivern's 4.75% pick rate isnt abnormally high idk where you are getting your statistics... but {{champion:76}} 's winrate is NOT that high..... i mean it _reaches_ that high in plat +... but that's already ignoring 92% of the player base for 70% of the playerbase her winrate is sub 45%. and obviously nid is going to do better in higher elo... she has no form of CC... but very high burst damage early-mid game. if u get teammates who can actaully set up a CC for you when you gank... your effectiveness skyrockets. (which is why she is amazing in pro play, because the biggest issue she has (lack of any form of hard or even SOFT cc... can be negated by good teamplay) and until riot realizes that that cant balance her based on the assumption one of her teammates is CC the enemy every time she comes near and realizes they needs to balance her around HER not having any form of CC. she wont become balanced
http://lolalytics.com/champion/Nidalee/ 47.3% http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/nidalee/platinum 47.5% https://champion.gg/champion/Nidalee/Jungle?league= 48.49% https://na.op.gg/champion/nidalee/statistics/jungle 47.6% on NA https://euw.op.gg/champion/nidalee/statistics/jungle 47.6% on EUW https://www.op.gg/champion/nidalee/statistics/jungle 47.6% on KR I'm sorry buddy, 47.5% is about correct if not a fractional underestimate. >idk where you are getting your statistics... but 's winrate is NOT that high..... i mean it reaches that high in plat +... but that's already ignoring 92% of the player base Low ranks barely even matter for balance.
Escheton (EUW)
: Has anyone toyed around with on-hit Xayah? And care to share?
The double hit doesn't proc on hits, I could see BotRK being good on her right now though, mostly because it's a broken item.
: I created a new item, is it good?
3.5K gold of attack, 6.8k worth of total stats, broken active/passive. This isn't the memes and games board mate, if you're suggesting something here at least make an attempt to make it reasonable.
jama655 (NA)
: cuz sejuani got the brunt of it
That's still not a good reason to not have threads on Zac and Maokai. Of course Sejuani needed the feedback thread more than Zac or Maokai, but that still doesn't mean they don't need one.
: Dont forget about me {{champion:143}}
Ah yes, the most blatant example of Riot utterly ignoring all community feedback ever. At most 5% of people on that thread wanted Zyra to be a support and a strawpoll ran on thousands of people said 68% of people wanted Zyra to be a primary mid. Of course that means you should cripple her mid and force her bot.
: Is a Ninja Tabi nerf coming?
Almost everyone's spaming AD champs but clearly Tabi, which have been the exact same for years are the underlying problem.
: Why the Fuck isn't there a Zac or Maokai Feedback thread
My best bet is that Riot didn't plan to make any threads for any of the three champs and made the Sejuani thread only as a snap response to the overwhelming amount of criticism they were receiving. Still I agree with you, there should have been a thread released for each one of them on the day they were released on the PBE.
TEKadeo (NA)
: I won't argue with you, I assume we are all sej mains here and we want her to be strong. However, what is your reasoning on why she should deal the most damage of all the tanks? Just curious. She kind of has lots of CC (well, had...still does kinda?) and that typically is one of the scales with which they balance (others being inert toughness ---ie not what you build/spec--- damage, utility and mobility. I guess now that I think about it, we are losing a lot of CC. Even with the added slow on W2, we simply are losing a ton of CC on her Ult as well as a very reliable slow on her E. Not quite sure we are gaining in other places? I guess we are gaining toughness by our passive, but tbh that isn't much. Technically her ability to use W while still moving adds a level of mobility too. Can't really say we are gaining damage though. Maybe? Right now on Live, her wheel thing has her as a 2 on damage, 2 on toughness, 3 on CC, 2 on mobility, and 1 on utility. I would have to say we drop to a 2 on CC with this rework.
>However, what is your reasoning on why she should deal the most damage of all the tanks? Just curious. She kind of has lots of CC (well, had...still does kinda?) and that typically is one of the scales with which they balance (others being inert toughness ---ie not what you build/spec--- damage, utility and mobility. Because her CC and durability at least at current and to some extents (more for CC, less for durability) on the PBE are far lower than average for a tank. The way I've always viewed it is that tanks have 3 main balancing levers, their durability, their CC and their damage. You could construct a triangle with tanks and tank-like champs (excuse my paint skills) and it would look something like this (I used old Sej square to represent current Sej and new Sej to represent PBE) http://imgur.com/a/l72Pz Basically the idea is that relative to other tanks Sejuani is squishier with less and less reliable CC. I believe this is true of both live and PBE Sejuani, although it's more true for live. I also don't believe mobility is a balance leaver for the vast majority of tanks. Almost all of them have the same amount of mobility. Out of the tanks tagged in the client we have Single dash: {{champion:12}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:154}} Multiple dashes: {{champion:3}} {{champion:59}} No dashes: {{champion:53}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:27}} That means 65% of all champs tagged as primary tanks have a single dash with a further 12% having 1 basic and 1 ultimate and 18% of tanks having a strong speed boosting ability. This leaves 16 of 17 tanks in comparable ranges of mobility, only Cho'gath is significantly bellow. >Even with the added slow on W2, That slow lasts for around 0.25 seconds, it's enough to make W>AA feel less clunky but not enough to be a substantial CC. >Not quite sure we are gaining in other places? I guess we are gaining toughness by our passive Definitely. The biggest thing Sej is gaining from these changes is durability, although I think she's still far from true tank levels of durability. She's not going to be Alistar, Leona, Poppy or Naut in terms of durability, she'll probably end up falling in line with champs like Zac, Shyvana and Darius. >Technically her ability to use W while still moving adds a level of mobility too. Last I checked live Sejuani doesn't need to stop moving to W. She needs to stop moving to AA, but so does every other champ in the game bar Kalista. >Can't really say we are gaining damage though. Maybe? Definitely not. Live Sejuani deals 12% max HP over the course of her W, on the PBE this is slashed to 7% (23/4) and it's physical damage which is a huge downside. The % enemy HP is up from 6% to 10/15/20%, but it's more conditional, single target and less spamable. E's damage is slightly down and massively less spamable, R's damage is less reliable and down VS the target it hits in most cases. Losing 5% max HP damage is huge, when we have a 4k HP pool and we're hitting an enemy with a 2k HP pool 5% of our HP is 10% of theirs. Add to that that W is physical and we've lost huge chunks of damage off of W. I don't believe that even at 20% the shatter makes up for this loss against an average enemy. If you get multiple Es and/or Ws on live Sej she puts PBE Sej's damage to shame. In essence PBE Sej is gaining burst, but I really don't think anyone, Sejuani player or otherwise wants this. It's better for Sej to stay a high DPS tank. >Right now on Live, her wheel thing has her as a 2 on damage, 2 on toughness, 3 on CC, 2 on mobility, and 1 on utility. I would have to say we drop to a 2 on CC with this rework. The wheels are a flawed way of looking at this IMO, because it's trying to compare every champ to every other champ. Comparing Sejuani to Syndra is pointless, what matters is how she compares to other tanks. Even here though I believe there's a small amount of insight since all tanks are either listed as a 1 or a 2 in damage, so her being a 2 puts her on the higher end of damage for tanks.
: I agree, vast improvement. I can't say I share the common opinion that giving her bonus damage to monsters feels bad. At worst, it feels like balance training wheels. I certainly don't want her to hit live, then hit the trashcan next patch because she was busted on release. Of that means she's got a crutch to keep her from being overtuned that's something I can live with.
The reason I'm not a fan of bonus damage VS monsters on Sejuani is because out of all of the tanks in the game Sejuani feels like she should deal the top damage or at least close to it to champions. She just shouldn't need all this extra damage, her base line damage VS everything should be good enough to clear the jungle. The changes to her CDs in this list also almost definitely push her much too far in how well she can clear. The 4 second CD E will absolutely rip single camps to shreds and the 30% bonus damage on her W with the other damage increases will let her nuke down both single target and AOE camps far too fast.
TEKadeo (NA)
: These changes are fantastic. Good step in the right direction. Wish the CD on W stayed the same though, since they took a chunk out of E's damage for it basically. Wonder what the DPS difference is between Old W vs New W though. Rito hates me and won't let me on PBE :( OH and could you test a couple things for me please? First, how does this passive work for her now? Do you really get to keep those massive resists for your entire jungle clear? That seems a bit OP but I'm not mad. If graves can be ranged and never get hit when clearing, why not everyone? Second, if you buy the new/changed Bubble item (I think it's still Banshee's Veil), does it protect you from popping your passive? Would be some nice synergy, even if the item isn't as great for Sej now (both due to lack of HP and poor AP scalings.)
>OH and could you test a couple things for me please? I don't have a PBE account and these changes are yet to hit the PBE. I can still tell you what I think will happen though. >First, how does this passive work for her now? Do you really get to keep those massive resists for your entire jungle clear? That seems a bit OP but I'm not mad. If graves can be ranged and never get hit when clearing, why not everyone? No, she doesn't. Large monsters will still break her passive and I think small monsters probably still stop its recovery, it's hard to say though. If small monsters don't stop its recovery then you could get it up a lot of times over the clear. This also does mean that in a case where you can burst down the Large Raptor with smite before it hits you you'd theoretically keep the DR for the entire camp. >Second, if you buy the new/changed Bubble item (I think it's still Banshee's Veil), does it protect you from popping your passive? Would be some nice synergy, even if the item isn't as great for Sej now (both due to lack of HP and poor AP scalings.) It should prevent your passive from procing, it's almost certainly not worth it though.
: stop bullying me
He's not bullying you, he's raising a point. You're jumping to conclusions far too fast. There's still room for change on Sejuani on the PBE, Solcrushed has actually been making quite a lot of positive changes. Saying you're concerned about the Sejuani rework is fair enough, I am too, already saying it made you stop playing the champion isn't. There's still plenty of ongoing change on it.
Ralanr (NA)
: The kit would still be functional but it'd have a lower skill ceiling and arguably less counterplay for his opponents.
The point is that the blade just feels crap for the Shen player. You lug this worthless piece of crap around behind you and all it does is slow you down. It's like a rework where you have a hobo that follows you around and you have to stop every 5 seconds to feed him. It just makes Shen less fun to play, regardless of what it does for his skill ceiling and counterplay which is ultimately the reason why Shen is a failure.
Ralanr (NA)
: I found it made him more fun in lane and it did help showcase how he's a force of balance for spirits and mortals with a blade for the soul and a blade for the flesh. And it did make his laning more risky since before he could just hang back and throw his Q at minions to last hit.
The thing about Shen is that you could remove his spirit blade completely and his kit would still be functional. His blade only serves to act as a restriction on Shen, it never actually feels like it's helping you. You could just as easily create the dodge field at yourself and have the next 3 hits be instant and it would flow far better. Shen's blade doesn't empower him as you'd expect from such a large element of a kit, it chains him.
Azureee7 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mordepool,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mRUzZoyi,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-04-22T16:13:44.606+0000) > > Mordekaiser The CertainlyT Rework made me Quit League for 1 year. The Balance teams fix for Morde is bearable in small doses. It's why I continually take 2 week breaks from league Morde, Kog, LB, Rengar and Malz are the top 5 worst reworks Riot has done so far bar none. I'd put Ryze there too but his gameplay was fun until Riot gutted him.
>Morde, Kog, LB, Rengar and Malz are the top 5 worst reworks Riot has done so far bar none. Sona's rework was easily worse than Kog's. Arguably Cass's original rework, Skarner's reworks, Shen's rework and Karma's rework should be up there too. I'd be reluctant to name a top 5 simply because there have been so many failures.
Ralanr (NA)
: Shen's spirit sword was an attempt to make his laning less safe, forcing him to play more risky to get results. It more or less worked.
It destroyed his character and made him far less fun to play. It makes utterly no thematic sense, does nothing at all for his gameplay and just feels clunky and unneeded. Shen's rework did anything but work.
Ralanr (NA)
: Personally I enjoy reworks, but I'll admit some just don't work (despite how much I feel about that champion in general). For example: I absolutely HATED Malzahar before and after his rework. Still kinda do. But after seeing his main strength of the rework (minions) nerfed to oblivion, I have to wonder if there was a point to reworking him instead of just nerfing his pool ult combo. Failed reworks are the result of trying to keep portions of the original kit in game when it's clear that those portions don't really work or can't be balanced. Leading to full VGUs to better identify the champion. We have yet to get a full VGU from on of the failed reworks however, which I think should be Riots next attempt at a VGU.
>Failed reworks are the result of trying to keep portions of the original kit in game when it's clear that those portions don't really work or can't be balanced. Leading to full VGUs to better identify the champion. They can also be the result of Riot trying to hard to impose what they want a kit to be onto a kit that has no space for that element. Good examples of this are Shen and Mordekaiser. Shen's spirit sword is forced, not fun, makes no sense and just detracts from his kit overall. Mordekaiser was forced botlane for some reason and it was horrible. There's certainly reworks where had the champion have stayed more like they were originally they would have came out the other side better. Riot has tried to change some kits too much.
: u dont take tower as braum, and i can 1v2 ashe and zilean
It doesn't matter. Having Braum around means that you're less likely to die to ganks while shoving up and he makes it harder for Ashe and Zilean to turn and kill you. The's just no reason to ever feed over pressure for free.
: I want to know if im right or wrong on this
You're on the wrong side. The pressure you lose from Braum dying is worth more than the bonus gold you'd get from him increasing the enemies gold if you know what you're doing. If you have that 8 kill lead use it to shove the tower down, take Drake, steal buffs, if you can't do these rotate mid and start pressuring. By going mid you either get another tower, or you force the behind enemy ADC to come mid and not get CS effectively freezing your gold lead over him in place. Basically there's better things your Braum can be doing than wasting 40 seconds off the map and those 40 seconds aren't worth the gold.
Bultz (NA)
: @Meddler, About the tank update...
>Metallicize: Increases maximum and current Health by 40% and increases champion size, but reduces damage dealt by 60% for 4 seconds (90 second cooldown). If Stone Skin is active, the Health increase becomes 100% instead. An important fact you forgot to mention, this is current HP. If you pop this at 200 HP, you get 400 HP. You need to Stoneplate early for it to be at all effective. From what I've seen you don't even want this item on a tank with decent damage like Sejuani or Amumu (and Sej has HP ratios) let alone something like Bruiser Akali. It's pretty much an item for Leona, Naut and Alistar, who do literally 0 damage anyway. Also Cho'gath, it seems absurd on Cho'gath which I think is the one case it's legit to be worried about this item in.
: What I would've done with Sej is sinply change her passive. I would keep all her kit the same but create a new passive. New passive; 'Battlecry' Whenever Sejuani hits 2 or more enemies or monsters with a single ability (second cast of W counts) she gains bonus armour and magic resist (10/15/20 at levels 1/7/13), gains bonus movement speed (20/30/40% at levels 1/7/13) and rallies allies towards Sejuani (20/30/40% bonus allied ms at levels 1/7/13) for 3/4/5 seconds (at the same levels as before), Battlecry has a (?) second cooldown (maybe scaling with levels again?). Obviously it's a rough concept but there you go. Now Sej wants to make proactive plays, she's great at clearing multi camps, good at counter ganking and great for teamfights, it also can't be abused in lane unless being ganked. Obviously my numbers would probably need changes and maybe more granularity but I think that'd work way better than the current changes.
Alternatively if they really wanted to change the W what they should have done is >On activation Sejuani swings her flail around herself 4 times over a 4 second duration dealing 10/17.5/25/32.5/40 (+1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5% Max HP) (+15% AP) to all enemies hit. At the end of this effect Sejuani slams down her flail at a target location, by default this is the direction aimed at when W was cast but it can be changed by recasting W. This deals 60/90/120/150/180 (+6% Max HP) (+40%AP). Basically just a fusion of live W and PBE W to take the better aspects of both. It's possible that the numbers could be a little off, but it's the actual design that matters. If I was going to keep her stacking E with this I'd increase the stack number to 8, make her W ticks apply one stack each and the hit apply 2. I feel this would also be good as it would make melee allies less impactful for her too, they get her a quicker stun but almost none could get a stun by themselves while Sej is more than capable of getting the stun in for herself.
Azureee7 (EUW)
: Let's talk reworks.
Personally I hated the Zyra rework because it killed mid Zyra, which is the funnest way to play her. The original Sona rework probably goes down as the worst rework for me though. I'm also fairly worried about the Sejuani rework on the PBE, although thankfully unlike every other rework for a champ I play the Rioter in charge seems to be taking feedback seriously, so it could still end OK. While I hate it less than the reworks I listed above as of yet the only one that's made me fully stop playing a champion was Shen's. I just don't enjoy him at all anymore. I think the last exceptional rework Riot performed was Ashe's small scale rework. That was an example of Riot keeping everything that made the champion unique and actually paying respect to the original champion. Before that both Sejuani's original rework and Yi's rework were very good.
Neddoreo (NA)
: I think it's physical because she's literally just hitting someone with a big metal ball on a chain. Don't get me wrong, from a balance standpoint it should totally be magic. It just makes more sense numerically. The flavor could be fixed with something like "the True Ice in the flail is what actually does the damage, the flail is just a method of delivering it" or, hopefully, something better with more than 15s of thought put into it. That said, given the current flavor, I can see the logic behind physical damage.
If Alistar headbutting you can deal magic damage then so can Sejuani swinging her flail. Seriously though, it's not that uncommon for champs to have abilities that don't fit their logical damage type when there's a good gameplay reason for it. For example everything Katarina does is magic damage, primarily because she's balanced around buying AP items and not AD items. If you were going to go entirely by logic Kat should certainly be an AD champ, the only spell you could justify as magic damage logically is Shunpo. There is a few good reasons for Sejuani to have a magic damage W over physical. Firstly magic damage tends to be a more effective damage type if you're itemising minimal or no pen, since MR numbers are lower. It also opens up some offensive itemisation options which are probably good for Sej to have. If she deals magic damage then she can build the new Abyssal Sceptre and Liandry's. I firmly believe that these semi offensive item choices should stay a part of Sejuani's arsenal and with a physical damage W they probably won't.
: Just pased 60 Sejuani skins
I love the idea behind Pool Party Sejuani. Animating it would probably be impossible but it's my favourite concept behind a skin I've ever seen.
: Suggestion for new Sejuani stacking passive.
I'd personally like to see the ally interaction completely removed and make Sejuani able to stack her E up with all of her abilities. 1 stack on R impact (for whole AOE), 1 stack for R explosion and 1 stack for Q. She gets back some of her lost teamfight threat by having stronger options for AOE stacking and loses the dumb ally interaction which only serves to detract from her kit. I do agree that if the ally interaction has to stay something like what you suggest would certainly be better than leaving it in the state it's in now. The absolute bare minimum change IMO would be to force Sej to be the one to initiate the stacking.
: Can we fix her skins while we're at it?
I'd love to see that as well, the Frost Armour just looks ugly on the majority of skins.
: Then pick Trundle. And you'll never get crushed by anybody again. Better yet, you'll head over to their jungle and crush them rather.
Not actually a tank though. He's firmly a bruiser. He also still loses to early game powerhouses who plague tanks like Lee and Elise anyway.
WDx (EUNE)
: yeh lets make all tanks be able to outtrade early game powerhouses so the said early game powerhouse becomes irrelevant mid game come since tanks are unkillable during midgame. Stop crying and start warding. If you are that afraid get trackers knife for further protection smh. ANd give me that summoner icon i neeeeedzzzz itzzzz
I don't want to be able to outrade them, I want to be able to clear fast enough that I can outpath them and with enough HP that I have some hope in hell of surviving if they do enter my jungle. Give me the tools to outscale them so that I don't just lose every game immediately VS a competent Lee because I'm forced into predictable, slow and unsustained pathing due to my shear lack of options. Also if you think Lee actually falls off that hard you're smoking the finest of ganja. A 3 item Lee is worth about the same as a 3 item tank, it's not until very late in the game that you'd really rather have the tank over the Lee.
Eedat (NA)
: Uhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmm can you link me where Riot said that? I don't think you understand what quotation marks are
No problem. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/pcT3hhuA-mid-season-tanks-update-sejuani >Lack of interesting / interactive combat pattern Sunfire Cape has never won awards for creating deep combat patterns, so it should come as no surprise that Sejuaniā€™s current kit is lacking in this department. It's paraphrased, but it's not really out of context.
: Overall I think sejuani is going to be messed up or release, but could be fixed by removing a lot of power from the E and putting it into the W, which is now kinda worthless.
Also, I don't even think it was ever really in question, but W should deal _**MAGIC DAMAGE**_. It dealing physical damage on the PBE is just confusing as hell. They changed Abyssal to be a great item for Sej, then they changed Sej so she can't use it effectively. There's just so much wrong with physical damage W.
jadelink (OCE)
: Yes, but what tank jungler DOES live when invaded by any of those duelist early game monstrosities ? But yes, Sej seems to be even weaker now in personal damage, and will need it all the more now that her ulti is much weaker (or at least, more conditional in its CC).
That would be why you don't see tank junglers right now. Sej on the PBE at current though would be even weaker in this regard than any tank jungle on this patch. I think after Riot implements the next set of planned changes she'll probably be a lot better though, if not a little too good in this regard.
Zeanix (OCE)
: I really don't understand the Sejuani complaints
>I really don't understand the Sejuani complaints Of course you don't, you don't even play her. I didn't really understand the complaints about Mord until I saw him in game, but I respected the opinions of Mord players who knew a lot more than me and I trusted that they were right on this issue because they know a hell of a lot more about Mord than I do. >And when she's finally released, don't go into the boards and just say "she's shit now thanks riot", give actual good feed back. I'd like to believe I have been giving good feedback. I've let my disdain for the rework be known but never directly attacked anyone or just came out with a thread that's said it's crap or even beyond repair. I've always pointed to problems in the rework and tried to point out ways that they can be solved. From what I've seen this is how the majority of Sejuani players have been doing. >In other Sejuani thoughts, I feel like she's gonna be better in the top lane due to her E and W. That E does maximum health damage so it's gonna be great for trading and her passive as well. You just answered a big part of the reason why people don't like it. I'd identify as both a Sejuani main and a jungle main. The very last thing I'd want is to see those become incompatible and be forced to give one up.
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LankPants

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