: I just want this game to be fun again
I'll just leave this here......If you guys don't think it's dying, well, you might want to look at this. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%2Fm%2F04n3w2r
BroLane (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=PhearBunny,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8Aho9zap,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-23T20:36:52.876+0000) > > No game in history has ever recovered from the downward spiral of staleness. > LoL is in a spot where its just a matter of time before the next ground breaking game steals all of its players. > Were ALL waiting to get out of here. You're wrong. I agree that LoL is on the decline currently. Perhaps even past the point of no return. But to say that "the next ground breaking game" will steal all of its players is utterly inane. People have said that about DOTA 2, Hearthstone, Overwatch, Fortnite, and many other popular multiplayer games, and they were always wrong. LoL continued to survive with a pretty large chunk of its player base for a long time. If the game falls off at this point, it will NOT be because of a competitor. It will occur because Riot or at least their balance team will make terrible decisions for multiple patches, similar to what they are doing now.
> [{quoted}](name=BroLane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8Aho9zap,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2018-04-24T03:58:40.192+0000) > > You're wrong. I agree that LoL is on the decline currently. Perhaps even past the point of no return. But to say that "the next ground breaking game" will steal all of its players is utterly inane. People have said that about DOTA 2, Hearthstone, Overwatch, Fortnite, and many other popular multiplayer games, and they were always wrong. LoL continued to survive with a pretty large chunk of its player base for a long time. If the game falls off at this point, it will NOT be because of a competitor. It will occur because Riot or at least their balance team will make terrible decisions for multiple patches, similar to what they are doing now. Except now instead of slowly pushing the game off a cliff Riot now has a team which is dangling it off the same said cliff edge and the rope can snap at any moment.
: Ok, seriously, I am tired of this, can you gut Janna until you find a way to fix her?
This is literally like the Mercy situation Overwatch had after her rework. Luckily Blizzard nerfed her so she needs half a brain to play now, so all those boosted e-girls and trash players have gone down to their real ranks ^_^ The moment Riot does that we'll see the same results.
: {{champion:55}} was the only assassin rework that actually made the champ better
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmhdE8M9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-23T12:40:45.861+0000) > > {{champion:55}} was the only assassin rework that actually made the champ better The rework made {{champion:55}} for viable in exchange for her almost completely losing identity as the Reset Queen as well as her overall fluidity (she's very clunky now) and she became a lot less exciting to play due to delays. Katarina was certainly made more viable, but after the slew of nerfs she's received she's back to where she was pre rework, a mid tier situational champion. What was the point of reworking her to have a better laning if you're just going to gut her laning? What's the point of reworking her to have more mobility if you're just going to nerf that? So I have to disagree when you say it made her "better". It made her a lot more viable and selectively fun to play, but it also made her a clunky balance nightmare that can never see the light of day unless Riot wants her to go back to having a 54%+ winrate and a 10%+ pickrate. As for the braindead argument I can debunk that. Kat's daggers are conceptually easier to understand than Kat's old kit. Anyone could pick up old Kat, but not everyone understood her kit. Sure, it's similar with the current Kat, but when you get 2-4 Shunpo resets it's a whole lot more forgiving than only having one Shunpo to work with. Also she could never braindead 1v5 the enemy team, that's just a myth :3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **Note:** Katarina main of 8 years btw.
Arakadia (NA)
: Overwatch was made in a much more stable environment than League. But anyways, League used to have 4 different maps, and were supposed to have 3 maps with the weekly game mode, so if Riot reimplements the rotation we're pretty good.
> [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BlmbRwZX,comment-id=0003000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-23T14:45:47.238+0000) > > Overwatch was made in a much more stable environment than League. > > But anyways, League used to have 4 different maps, and were supposed to have 3 maps with the weekly game mode, so if Riot reimplements the rotation we're pretty good. >Overwatch was made in a much more stable environment than League. 2.3 billion dollar net worth indie games company btw.
: Top 5 Pickrates: {{champion:7}} {{champion:103}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:105}}4 Assassins +Yas Top 5 Winrates: {{champion:26}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:105}}3 Assassins + 2 random 1% spammed by OTP. Srsly - Dat Zilean was my WTF of the day. x'D - But actually just proofs the point. Zilean is THE answer to Assassins and why should an anti-Assassin be strong when they arent META. So keep talking - but the raw numbers kinda proof you you wrong. The changes to Mages are SOLEY targeted on ProPlay where they're without a doubt the superior choice - but the wast majority of SoloQ is ruled by Assassins... Lately #AssassinMains becomes more hilarious the famous #ADCMains... ------------------ BTW: I'm actually looking forward to the overall changes - yeah they'll negatively impact the overall gameplay for a while but since I'm not really a fan of the current state of the game I welcome any systematic change.
> [{quoted}](name=Titanium70,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3tig1EqZ,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-04-23T13:47:36.985+0000) > > Top 5 Pickrates: {{champion:7}} {{champion:103}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:105}}4 Assassins +Yas > Top 5 Winrates: {{champion:26}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:105}}3 Assassins + 2 random 1% spammed by OTP. > Srsly - Dat Zilean was my WTF of the day. x'D - But actually just proofs the point. Zilean is THE answer to Assassins and why should an anti-Assassin be strong when they arent META. > > So keep talking - but the raw numbers kinda proof you you wrong. > The changes to Mages are SOLEY targeted on ProPlay where they're without a doubt the superior choice - but the wast majority of SoloQ is ruled by Assassins... > > Lately #AssassinMains becomes more hilarious the famous #ADCMains... > ------------------ > BTW: I'm actually looking forward to the overall changes - yeah they'll negatively impact the overall gameplay for a while but since I'm not really a fan of the current state of the game I welcome any systematic change. Assassins have mediocre pickrates. That's why their winrates are so high. Unless you're overbuffed like Zed is......
: {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:84}} look at this poor champions riot please buff so they can have 85 prec winrate. they can't deal enough damage.
> [{quoted}](name=REDCOLORED,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=4UzYfzmT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-23T21:56:31.411+0000) > > {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:84}} > look at this poor champions riot please buff so they can have 85 prec winrate. they can't deal enough damage. We want fluidity again. Winrates don't matter to us.
: Mages getting nerfed meanwhile all i play against mid is....
Assassins lack consistent and effective waveclear as well as hard CC. This is why mages are disgusting, you can just shove them under tower for the entirety of laning phase and get your jungler to camp them and there's really not much they can do. Plus, people are saying that one touch from an assassin can kill mages. That's not true at all. You can outplay assassins, just play patiently and don't try to overcommit. The moment you force an assassin to recklessly use their mobility options to actually get to you and not use them for damage is the moment when you know they're getting desperate. Mages win the war of attrition. Assassins may have a higher pick rate but they sure as hell don't define the mid lane meta, that's the mage class' job. There has never been a meta where assassins have dominated mid lane, it's always been mages. It is because of this that I do agree with Riot that mages need to be toned down. But I disagree with the mana changes, they're going too far. Note: {{champion:157}} isn't an assassin......
Skorch (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lovesick,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BlmbRwZX,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-04-22T19:47:51.698+0000) > > Your question should be: > > **Why aren't they permanent?** Queue times. If every game mode was always available, they would each have 10ish min unbalanced queue times. And normal modes would take a 1 to 2 min hit.
> [{quoted}](name=Skorch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BlmbRwZX,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-04-22T23:52:10.512+0000) > > Queue times. If every game mode was always available, they would each have 10ish min unbalanced queue times. And normal modes would take a 1 to 2 min hit. Then enable them in custom games. There you go, now a group of friends can enjoy playing League, but not play the usual LoL match where everyone picks meta and games are ResidentSleeper
Almighty (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lovesick,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BlmbRwZX,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-04-22T19:47:51.698+0000) > > Your question should be: > > **Why aren't they permanent?** _"We don't have the resources"_ - Riot before they axed Dominion. Honestly, i feel like the game might become a bit clunky if all game modes are enabled at the same time. There is also a high chance of Game modes stealing attention away from the main game mode and the LC$, and we all know how much Riot wants us to watch LC$. Not to mention that there is a hight risk of permanent game modes getting boring and resulting in removal (Dominion). http://www.auplod.com/u/dpoula9d885.png
> [{quoted}](name=Almighty,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BlmbRwZX,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-04-22T22:05:02.093+0000) > > _"We don't have the resources"_ - Riot before they axed Dominion. > > Honestly, i feel like the game might become a bit clunky if all game modes are enabled at the same time. > There is also a high chance of Game modes stealing attention away from the main game mode and the LC$, and we all know how much Riot wants us to watch LC$. > > Not to mention that there is a hight risk of permanent game modes getting boring and resulting in removal (Dominion). > > http://www.auplod.com/u/dpoula9d885.png Only having one gamemode is an embarrassment to League. The fact that there is no support for the casual playerbase in terms of gamemodes is just a laughing stock. As for the LC$.....Riot needs to get a grip and stop directing all their attention towards it. They'll kill the game if they continue to do this. Players are already leaving by the masses, if they do it past midseason I reckon we're going to see the numbers increase in terms of players quitting League.
: You should play around peel in the first place as an assassin thats why they all have easy engages. You should wait out shield being used on any other target. But Because of adc power there is no reason to shield any other target adcs 3 shotting anyone is the real problem and those other problems are only problems because adcs 3 shot you and if it wasnt adc's 3 shotting you in just over 1 second it would be mages 1 shotting you in just under 1 second
> [{quoted}](name=LordGeovanni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i8XwTEAo,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-04-23T00:13:10.166+0000) > > You should play around peel in the first place as an assassin thats why they all have easy engages. You should wait out shield being used on any other target. But Because of adc power there is no reason to shield any other target adcs 3 shotting anyone is the real problem and those other problems are only problems because adcs 3 shot you and if it wasnt adc's 3 shotting you in just over 1 second it would be mages 1 shotting you in just under 1 second I can't play around peel if I have 2 seconds worth of delays lmao.
Arakadia (NA)
: People know those games exists it's just League is so much more where some people play it more.
> [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BlmbRwZX,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-23T03:53:41.106+0000) > > People know those games exists it's just League is so much more where some people play it more. But Overwatch also has 4+ arcade mode game types AND you can adjust almost everything in terms of custom game settings.... {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
Almighty (EUNE)
: Why are "Rotating game modes" not rotating weekly anymore?
It gets even better when you remember that Riot removed Crystal Scar which housed many many custom gamemodes and they promised us that they'd fix that issue. Yeahhhhh they never did, the custom gamemodes are dead and the casual playerbase is dead. Good moves Riot.
Arakadia (NA)
: The ques would suck probably. They would also have the same effect of making Urf permanent. The only one I think that should be permanent is Ascension.
> [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BlmbRwZX,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-04-22T21:25:02.796+0000) > > The ques would suck probably. > > They would also have the same effect of making Urf permanent. The only one I think that should be permanent is Ascension. Every single other game out there lets you play different gamemodes whenever you want. It doesn't matter if the queue times suck or not since: 1. you'd have custom games to play them in and 2. at least you'd have the option to mix things up as opposed to playing standard League 24/7.
Azadethe (NA)
: Not even close to true. Mid top rankers are {{champion:55}} {{champion:238}}
> [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wi77FLtM,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-22T00:07:10.156+0000) > > Not even close to true. Mid top rankers are {{champion:55}} {{champion:238}} Hahahahahahaha. Name one time where Katarina was ever pick or ban in pro play? ONE TIME. Zed I can understand though, he was a good pick in seasons 3-4.
Almighty (EUNE)
: Why are "Rotating game modes" not rotating weekly anymore?
Your question should be: **Why aren't they permanent?**
: Assassins were popular until the Assassin rework but its mages fault?
Hahahaha, who's going to play an assassin when your targets get stacked shields on them, multiple tanks peeling for them as well as a support and if it's the ADC they 1-3 shot you.... I'll answer that question, no one. It doesn't help that Riot just loves nerfing assassins into the ground. They let Janna run rampant for 8 years but noooooo assassins are the issue apparently.
: I doubt they'll be reverted. They're good as they are
> [{quoted}](name=TheCancerousCrab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X3lzVdol,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-04-19T19:03:57.143+0000) > > I doubt they'll be reverted. They're good as they are Good? Yes. Functional and fluid? No. They're more viable but they're far less fun to play, more clunky and their kits rely on forced mechanics.
: Playing reverted lb made me realize
Now for a Talon and Kat revert and I'll finally have the bois back.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lovesick,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEzoEG54,comment-id=002e,timestamp=2018-04-18T10:21:39.382+0000) > > Eh, I think this is a healthy set of changes since mages have ALWAYS been viable in the mid lane. There hasn't been a single meta where mages didn't just rule mid lane with an iron grip. Funny joke
> [{quoted}](name=Alevity Xiaku,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEzoEG54,comment-id=002e0000,timestamp=2018-04-18T16:22:00.427+0000) > > Funny joke It's not a joke.
: So all mages are getting nerfed hard on the PBE
Eh, I think this is a healthy set of changes since mages have ALWAYS been viable in the mid lane. There hasn't been a single meta where mages didn't just rule mid lane with an iron grip.
Hibeki (NA)
: I had a thought, should we create our own league of legends subreddit? Where its actually moderated fairly? Lower size means it wont need heavy moderation, and Esports wont be the entire front page.
> [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QYQWo4ys,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-04-17T23:20:51.316+0000) > > I had a thought, should we create our own league of legends subreddit? Where its actually moderated fairly? > > Lower size means it wont need heavy moderation, and Esports wont be the entire front page. Tell me about it, they say they're superior and yet all we see on the bloody front page EVERY SINGLE DAY is LCS related content. It's effectively the same as what Facebook is doing right now.
Pika Fox (NA)
: ADC damage items only give them a lot of damage 3 items deep. The only exception being guinsoos, which just got reworked because its an extremely niche item that only a handful of champs can even use, and is only good when they are good. Crit items are trash unless you have 2.5-3, one of which needs to be IE or ER. Thats a lot of gold investment before you even become relevant. Until then, you have a sunk cost that would be better with most other damage items. Being able to afk in one game that one time and have it work out doesnt mean it would always work. It rarely will work, and the only time it would ever work is either the 4 remaining are so far beyond the skill level of the 5 that you dont matter (and thus the ADC also doesnt matter), or they managed to close the game quickly before they lost due to sheer stats force (also skill, because an adc level 18 full build will still die in 2 seconds to someone with a CC) Their pickrates are irrelevant. Ezreal is a safe pick with multiple build paths. He will have a high pick rate as a result because he can change things for the situation as needed and fit a wide array of teamcomps. Conversely, kai sa is an assassin, who is garbage into most picks, and thus youd only pick her into comps where you do well, meaning shed have a highish winrate from that. ADCs also have a relatively small pick pool.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AggRQ5H,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-16T23:42:15.032+0000) > > ADC damage items only give them a lot of damage 3 items deep. The only exception being guinsoos, which just got reworked because its an extremely niche item that only a handful of champs can even use, and is only good when they are good. Crit items are trash unless you have 2.5-3, one of which needs to be IE or ER. Thats a lot of gold investment before you even become relevant. Until then, you have a sunk cost that would be better with most other damage items. > > Being able to afk in one game that one time and have it work out doesnt mean it would always work. It rarely will work, and the only time it would ever work is either the 4 remaining are so far beyond the skill level of the 5 that you dont matter (and thus the ADC also doesnt matter), or they managed to close the game quickly before they lost due to sheer stats force (also skill, because an adc level 18 full build will still die in 2 seconds to someone with a CC) > > Their pickrates are irrelevant. Ezreal is a safe pick with multiple build paths. He will have a high pick rate as a result because he can change things for the situation as needed and fit a wide array of teamcomps. > > Conversely, kai sa is an assassin, who is garbage into most picks, and thus youd only pick her into comps where you do well, meaning shed have a highish winrate from that. ADCs also have a relatively small pick pool. Ezreal may be picked because he's safe.....but almost an almost 50% pickrate, come on man, that's just problematic. Kai'sa right now can be picked into and against any team comp. since she's overbuffed and overloaded. As for crit. items I disagree. Shiv. grants far too much for its cost and IE grants enough AD to deal a relevant amount of damage (and that's excluding the passive). Sure, they're strongest 3 items in, but they're still quite strong 1-2 items in. Crit. items are not trash, they're probably among the best items in the game right now.
: ryze changes that Riot didnt want you to see
I like the changes. Locking his root behind E is a good change since he has so many bonus effects from his current combos. Plus, Riot did say they want to stray away from point and click to win abilities (like what they said with Kat). His ult changes are fine imo. He becomes a TF who is one of the best at waveclearing in the game and he brings a lot of damage to a fight. 300 seconds is insanely long, but let's be real, most players will wait for their Flash to come back up in a lot of situations, so it's pretty much just like that.
: 300 sec cd ult either make him a 3 spells champion, or rework his ult because this is becoming a joke
> [{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iBepJ3XW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-17T11:05:46.970+0000) > > 300 sec cd ult > > > either make him a 3 spells champion, or rework his ult because this is becoming a joke 4000 range though. He'll be like a TF.
Hópe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mhihnj,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AggRQ5H,comment-id=000400020000,timestamp=2018-04-16T12:14:31.410+0000) > > he is talking about a recent lcs game statistics You mean Cherry picked games because i see a lot of mid laners doing atleast 30% of teams damage
> [{quoted}](name=Hópe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AggRQ5H,comment-id=0004000200000001,timestamp=2018-04-16T16:23:28.574+0000) > > You mean Cherry picked games because i see a lot of mid laners doing atleast 30% of teams damage And the ADCs do like 50-70% of the team's damage PogChamp
Pika Fox (NA)
: Right, let me know when teams, hell even champions, have one CC. Merc is great to save you from one big budget CC. Its not going to save you from a leona, ali, naut, or really anyone that matters. It just means scar/ww/malz cant just press R and kill you, or a low CC mage or jug cant just CC kill you. No, on paper and in reality damage is a terrible stat to build, only being viable when you are ahead in gold so you can press an advantage before the enemy can build resists, which heavily outscale damage. If damage and ADCs were as OP as you want to claim, youd see 5 man ADC teamcomps. Instead, you see 1 carry teamcomps whos entire job is to kill towers and objectives, and 4 teamfight centric picks to support the fact that ADCs are intrinsically terrible at teamfighting because theyll just die. Also not true. AFK when your ADC is ahead. See how far that gets you (hint, youll instantly lose, because ADCs are garbage on their own) Again, zero evidence. You have opinionated claims at best with no statistical backing up. You also list 3 ADCs at approx 50% winrate, so again, not indicating much of anything, other than at best your "problem picks" are pretty balanced if your idea of balance is a 50% winrate.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AggRQ5H,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-16T21:48:48.055+0000) > > Right, let me know when teams, hell even champions, have one CC. Merc is great to save you from one big budget CC. Its not going to save you from a leona, ali, naut, or really anyone that matters. It just means scar/ww/malz cant just press R and kill you, or a low CC mage or jug cant just CC kill you. > > No, on paper and in reality damage is a terrible stat to build, only being viable when you are ahead in gold so you can press an advantage before the enemy can build resists, which heavily outscale damage. If damage and ADCs were as OP as you want to claim, youd see 5 man ADC teamcomps. Instead, you see 1 carry teamcomps whos entire job is to kill towers and objectives, and 4 teamfight centric picks to support the fact that ADCs are intrinsically terrible at teamfighting because theyll just die. > > Also not true. AFK when your ADC is ahead. See how far that gets you (hint, youll instantly lose, because ADCs are garbage on their own) > > Again, zero evidence. You have opinionated claims at best with no statistical backing up. You also list 3 ADCs at approx 50% winrate, so again, not indicating much of anything, other than at best your "problem picks" are pretty balanced if your idea of balance is a 50% winrate. Point 1 I can agree with. Point 2 I disagree with, I suggest you re-read my reply and you'll understand why (ADC damage items give them a looooot). Point 3, I have actually done that (not on purpose, I had to go out). We won that game because I got my ADC to be 10/0 by 20 minutes. Point 4, please look at their pickrates :)
: Why should Riot care about someone that's claiming to leave forever, but is only going to be back within the next two months, because their stream will hit 12 people **tops** without League? They're bitching and "quitting" because it's popular. Not because they're actually upset. Sure, ***maybe*** the first guy to do it was. And ***possibly*** the second. Everyone else? They're doing it for the sole reason that it's popular.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=EBBIvmVK,discussion-id=iqRBct5j,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-16T19:14:30.373+0000) > > Why should Riot care about someone that's claiming to leave forever, but is only going to be back within the next two months, because their stream will hit 12 people **tops** without League? > > They're bitching and "quitting" because it's popular. Not because they're actually upset. > > Sure, ***maybe*** the first guy to do it was. And ***possibly*** the second. Everyone else? They're doing it for the sole reason that it's popular. You do realise I'm talking about content creators here, not streamers or content creators' streams, right? (As well as the overall purpose of League being competitiveness > fun) Riot should care about the lack of diversity League content is currently facing Riot should care about the game not being portrayed by casual players who are relatable. Riot should care about the game when the overall community is simply centered around the LCS. Ross does not want to leave forever, and he does not want to stop making League content. However, with the lack of support for *original* content creators there's little he can do since he's losing money by trying to do that and not just uploading stream highlights. I am *not* talking about people who are claiming to quit here, I am talking about how there's little to no unique and wacky content for League anymore because it's been killed off by stream highlights. Maybe if you had watched the whole video and read the whole post you would have understood my intended point :)
Rioter Comments
Pika Fox (NA)
: Again, Carries have all the power budget because damage is a terrible stat to build. Its more effective to have 1 person do damage to kill objectives than to split it between 5 because all it takes is one CC and the person who builds offense over damage dies. All the ADCs you listed are terrible at ganking. The only one half decent is twitch, and its entirely due to stealth. Even then, he still lacks CC or general utility and can only effectively gank when youre already in a terrible spot or the lane has the CC to back him up. ADCs are bad at ganking. Single target low utility = terrible ganks. Youre just claiming ADCs are "op" without providing real evidence of such and making grandiose claims. Also, mids job has always been to gank since the meta became 1 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jungle, standard ADC bot and AP mid. Thats LITERALLY the entire reason mages and assassins go mid. They scale best with levels and are gank centric, and mid is the center of the map making ganks easy. Literally the entire reason.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AggRQ5H,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-15T23:10:33.983+0000) > > Again, Carries have all the power budget because damage is a terrible stat to build. Its more effective to have 1 person do damage to kill objectives than to split it between 5 because all it takes is one CC and the person who builds offense over damage dies. > > All the ADCs you listed are terrible at ganking. The only one half decent is twitch, and its entirely due to stealth. Even then, he still lacks CC or general utility and can only effectively gank when youre already in a terrible spot or the lane has the CC to back him up. ADCs are bad at ganking. Single target low utility = terrible ganks. > > Youre just claiming ADCs are "op" without providing real evidence of such and making grandiose claims. > > Also, mids job has always been to gank since the meta became 1 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jungle, standard ADC bot and AP mid. Thats LITERALLY the entire reason mages and assassins go mid. They scale best with levels and are gank centric, and mid is the center of the map making ganks easy. Literally the entire reason. >"....all it takes is one CC and the person who builds offense over damage dies.'' If only an item existed which could remove CC.....oh wait, an item like that DOES exist and gives damage. Mercurial Scimitar btw. >".... damage is a terrible stat to build." On paper yes, in actuality no. ADCs currently have far too many options to work with compared to any other class. They have items that grant waveclear, longer range, dueling power, more dueling power+lifesteal+a shield, 4 options for tank buster items, a second life+AD, MR+CDR+a magic damage shield+sustain, almost complete immunity to burst and then there are on-hit items..... In their current state ADCs are rewarded far too much for acquiring very simple purchases such as a Zeal item and later on an IE. Every single time an ADC purchases something they get exponentially stronger. Even Ezreal who used to be an early-mid game champion now functions as a good all rounder. This wouldn't be a problem if ADCs in general weren't strong early as well, because currently they're far too strong early. Let me put it this way, if you put an ADC into a solo lane right now they would be the lane bully....and a hard one at that. Plus damage isn't even that bad to build when your support covers your remaining weaknesses. >"Also, mids job has always been to gank since the meta became 1 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jungle, standard ADC bot and AP mid." Yes, but back in previous seasons solo lanes could gank for selfish reasons like getting themselves fed to solo carry. At this point that's borderline trolling since your ADC does THE most work on your team bar none when fed. Even snowball assassins pail in comparison to a fed ADC. >"Youre just claiming ADCs are "op" without providing real evidence of such and making grandiose claims." Real evidence.....well there's the constant reminder from notable streamers such as Imaqtpie, NB3, Shiptur, scarra, Hashinshin (lol), Faker, Apdo, Cowsep and NEACE (who has now quit). Additionally there's the personal experience of being borderline useless unless you're getting your ADC rolling (or you're smurfing). Also let's not forget how if you have a bad ADC you almost insta-lose. If none of these seem relevant to you then you must be lucky enough to play in low elo where almost nothing bloody matters. Also, if you want some stats. here you go: Ezreal winrate 51.54% pickrate 44.63% Xayah winrate 51.24% pickrate 24.45% Kai'sa winrate 50.98% pickrate 17.94% Those are the main problem champions right now, but honestly.....most ADCs have least have a semi-high pickrate and their winrate isn't even that bad. Compare these stats. to every other role and you start to see the problem. ADCs are the most picked class right now....yet they're sporting above 50% winrates most of the time even if they're new to the role. But like....almost a 45% pickrate. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
: Didn't they have a post with like a bunch of statistics when people were talking about how "top is a useless role" and they went and showed a bunch of statistics how until very high elo, top's influence on the game was usually more than jungle/support? (also the claim that mid has low influence on the game is ridiculous, damage is not the only way you influence a game). They also addressed looking into how to make top more influential in high elo. Also... they made a whole post addressing the "matchmaking claims" too. I feel like people on boards QQ and don't even read the devblog posts Riot makes that _specifically_ address their issues.
> [{quoted}](name=Disembark,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ljZuQ9bX,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-16T12:44:13.845+0000) > > Didn't they have a post with like a bunch of statistics when people were talking about how "top is a useless role" and they went and showed a bunch of statistics how until very high elo, top's influence on the game was usually more than jungle/support? (also the claim that mid has low influence on the game is ridiculous, damage is not the only way you influence a game). > > They also addressed looking into how to make top more influential in high elo. > > Also... they made a whole post addressing the "matchmaking claims" too. > > I feel like people on boards QQ and don't even read the devblog posts Riot makes that _specifically_ address their issues. Those top lane stats. were taken from Vietnam's server btw xD
: Being a team game is not good or fun, it doesnt show your true skill. CsGo: You can solo carry. Call of Duty: Can solo carry. Dota 2: Can solo carry FortNite/PubG: Can solo carry your team. And what do all these games have in common? Popular, teams, fun. Imagine if League has always been this way. Faker might not even be popular because he would've never gotten the spotlight of his skill, outplaying the enemy team, and carrying the games. Look at Faker today, the best player in the best team, Skt, didnt win Season 7 worlds. In Season 7, if you even watched worlds, Faker couldnt do anything. His team mates kept dying, he sat in mid just getting camped over and over again, and its all because catchup exp doesnt punish those for roaming, and jungler loses no health for smiting the camps. Faker couldnt win lane due to all the roams and couldnt do anything in general. The better adc was winning those games every time, while everyone else just sat in their lanes farming and hoping not to get ganked. If you want to play in a game that revolves around 0 skill, players spamming abilities and walking up to everyone to do damage, then i feel sorry for you. Edit: Not flaming, but you are Bronze 2. Most people in that elo dont care what happens because they just play for fun, not for competitive gameplay.
> [{quoted}](name=JAAAAAAAAAAAAYCE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5GyfKYze,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-04-15T18:53:54.468+0000) > > Being a team game is not good or fun, it doesnt show your true skill. > > CsGo: You can solo carry. > Call of Duty: Can solo carry. > Dota 2: Can solo carry > FortNite/PubG: Can solo carry your team. > > And what do all these games have in common? Popular, teams, fun. > > Imagine if League has always been this way. Faker might not of even gotten popular because he wouldnt of got the spotlight of being good at the game, outplaying the enemy team. Look at Faker today, the best player on the best team Skt didnt win Season 7. In Season 7, if you even watched worlds, Faker couldnt do anything. His team mates kept dying, he sat in mid just getting camped over and over. Because catchup exp doesnt punish those for roaming, and jungler loses no health for smiting the camps, Faker couldnt win lane due to all the roams and couldnt do anything in general in any game. > > If you want to play in a game that revolves around 0 skill and just players spamming abilities and walking up to everyone then i feel sorry for you. > > Edit: Not flaming, but you are Bronze 2. Most people in that elo dont care what happens because they just play for fun, not for competitive gameplay. Even in Overwatch and TF2 you can solo carry, and those games immediately scream "WORK AS A TEAM" right from the get-go.
: I'll refrain from commenting on katarina, as I know I'll be heavily biased. As for shyvana, I believe her nerfs came at around the time people were pushing early red buff ganks, and she was at or near the top for winrates at the time. That being said, warwick has been near the top for a mighty long time, and there still haven't been any significant changes.
> [{quoted}](name=Jon 678910,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1UbZdRKB,comment-id=00180014000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-15T01:27:27.819+0000) > > I'll refrain from commenting on katarina, as I know I'll be heavily biased. > > As for shyvana, I believe her nerfs came at around the time people were pushing early red buff ganks, and she was at or near the top for winrates at the time. That being said, warwick has been near the top for a mighty long time, and there still haven't been any significant changes. Mmm it's concerning that Riot refuses to change him in any way.
Puppet33r (EUNE)
: Correct me if I'm wrong but {{champion:429}} can jump over it and {{champion:67}} can tumble through it since the wall is still coded as minions. Also I never checked/saw but can't {{champion:432}} drop his tunnel on it? And since the wall is minions {{champion:6}} and {{champion:240}} might be able to E through it.
> [{quoted}](name=Puppet33r,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WU5s1NGX,comment-id=000600000000000100010005,timestamp=2018-04-14T08:23:14.537+0000) > > Correct me if I'm wrong but {{champion:429}} can jump over it and {{champion:67}} can tumble through it since the wall is still coded as minions. > > Also I never checked/saw but can't {{champion:432}} drop his tunnel on it? And since the wall is minions {{champion:6}} and {{champion:240}} might be able to E through it. They fixed Vayne Tumble and Riven Q. They can no longer pass through J4's ult.
: > You guys are promoting nye-unkillable tanks such as Sejuani and Maokai as well as completely overtuning both bot lane positions just so there's a guaranteed way for pros to win if they stall for long enough. While I'll agree with the second part of your statement, I disagree that riot are promoting tanks. Most top lane tanks are mediocre in terms of both play and win rate in solo queue. While they are nerfing tanks, it's being done on a general level through runes (i.e aftershock), rather than looking at individual problems. The only thing keeping tanks around is the ability to peel, and with the strength of ADCs, this is a priority. > What's this, Katarina has been played 4-5 times in the current LCS split across all regions and has won 1-3 matches? Oop, better nerf her like 6 times. I'm pretty sure the katarina nerfs were not because of LCS, but as a result of her having both a 50+ winrate and a good playrate at higher elos. On top of that, I'd disagree with your statement on high damage champions like shyvana, who were pretty dominant on the ladder as well. I understand having issues with LCS, but high elo solo queue meta should still be the main factor when it comes to balance. That being said, I do agree with your conclusion. A lot of the newer champions have been overtuned to the point where they took heavy nerfs which left them weak in solo queue while still leaving them relevant in LCS (Zoe,Ornn).
> [{quoted}](name=Jon 678910,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1UbZdRKB,comment-id=001800140002,timestamp=2018-04-14T02:35:00.660+0000) > > While I'll agree with the second part of your statement, I disagree that riot are promoting tanks. Most top lane tanks are mediocre in terms of both play and win rate in solo queue. While they are nerfing tanks, it's being done on a general level through runes (i.e aftershock), rather than looking at individual problems. > The only thing keeping tanks around is the ability to peel, and with the strength of ADCs, this is a priority. > > I'm pretty sure the katarina nerfs were not because of LCS, but as a result of her having both a 50+ winrate and a good playrate at higher elos. > > On top of that, I'd disagree with your statement on high damage champions like shyvana, who were pretty dominant on the ladder as well. I understand having issues with LCS, but high elo solo queue meta should still be the main factor when it comes to balance. > > That being said, I do agree with your conclusion. A lot of the newer champions have been overtuned to the point where they took heavy nerfs which left them weak in solo queue while still leaving them relevant in LCS (Zoe,Ornn). Yeah I will admit that I over-exaggerated by examples. However Katarina was a lil bit odd since she was only really played by one tricks, and still is. That's probably just another personal gripe though. In saying that the nerfs have made her sooo bad in lane, in higher elos anyway and honestly those nerfs seemed rushed since the meta didn't even have time to properly form by the time she was nerfed. Additionally, I mentioned that champs who get played in the LCS likely get nerfs because there is probably some truth to this since Riot is pretty shady in some their nerfs and their reasoning behind it. As for high damage champs I have an issue with them nerfing Shyvana because she's far from being a driving force in the meta. She's always been a niche pick at best. Now, if Riot REALLY wanted to nerf meta junglers they'd target Sej and Warwick.
: Can you decide wether J4 is a diver or a oneshot bot?
I love how J4 can just buy {{item:3147}} and suddenly he has like triple the fucking burst of a Rengar, Zed and Shadow Kayn all merged together. Don't believe me? J4 can literally insta-gib with ONLY an ult+auto post Duskblade.
: well on the other hand it isn't really fun to be useless the entire game because "oh they picked x, well guess i dont get to play the game"
> [{quoted}](name=Duchess Charlie,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRZEAlFK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-12T11:06:17.233+0000) > > well on the other hand it isn't really fun to be useless the entire game because "oh they picked x, well guess i dont get to play the game" That's the point of counters, and why you should learn more than 1 champion for each role.
: To start off, you're 100% correct in expressing frustration when you feel the game **you** play is negatively impacted by balance decisions that are made focused on the highest levels of play. You're opinion is one that's certainly shared by a large group of players, but it's also only one of several of the demographics that make up our playerbase that we're trying to serve with both solo queue and the professional scene. Let me elaborate: Group A - Just wants to play League doesn't care about the pro scene Group B - Enjoys League, tunes in occasionally to watch the pro scene (usually for big things like playoff finals, MSI, Worlds) Group C - Enjoys League, watches LCS religiously (every weekend they make time to watch every game or atleast the games with their favorite teams. Group D - Used to play League, doesn't anymore, but still watches the LCS because they like the pro scene Group E - Never played League before, but I friend told them it was pretty cool and got them to watch a few games. *These groups are not all encompassing, but what I'm trying to outline is that the number of people that care about there being some amount of focus put on pro play balance is far greater than just the players that actually play professionally. Now, more direct to your point, I have a desire/goal for a future where we don't have to make as many changes to champions based on their performance in pro play nearly as much as we do now. Right now we're beset by two conflicting goals, we (Riot) really want pro play to be as exciting as possible, and professional teams really want to win, more or less regardless of the tactics. Why these conflict is that the path to victory is often one of min maxing for risk/reward - which manifests as choosing more generically strong champions with less pronounced weaknesses, and then out macroing the shit out of your opponent. Why choose Zed when you can pick Ryze who's proven to have far fewer weaknesses when playing in a low ping, highly coordinated environment as an example? In order to make Zed a more likely pick in pro, we'd likely need to buff him drastically to overcome his weaknesses/counterplay - which is a surefire way of putting him in crazy territory for our average solo queue warrior. Since that isn't really a great option, we need to find another way. We're currently putting some brainpower in how we could help shelter pro play from specific points of imbalance, letting us put less focus on pro play in regards to balance and focusing more on the regular game. It sucks to have your champion heavily nerfed, especially when it's for something you don't care about, we totally understand that, and ideally we can find a world where that can become less of a thing that we need to do. Potential avenues could be exploring changes to the drafting phase beyond 10 bans. There really isn't much to talk about yet though. At the end of the day we highly value League as a spectator sport, and we'll continue to make changes that we believe help achieve that. We just need to make sure we're doing our diligence when we're making big changes that could impact the way the players actually engage with the game and make sure the cost is worth it. I stand by our decision to remove trackers as an example, as I firmly believe the value in terms of "quality of game" we get both in pro and normal was worth the cost of removing that one item. To close off, we simply can't shackle ourselves by only making decisions that all players will find agreeable, as doing so would mean we should probably just stop making any meaningful changes to the game period, and that's not a world that I think we should be moving towards. ps - the archangels change is only archangels. Once it's upgraded to Seraph's you get the full 3% ap again. Right now it's simply too good as a rush item when it's intended to be more mid/late game scaling power spike.
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1UbZdRKB,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2018-04-11T21:58:02.750+0000) > > To start off, you're 100% correct in expressing frustration when you feel the game **you** play is negatively impacted by balance decisions that are made focused on the highest levels of play. You're opinion is one that's certainly shared by a large group of players, but it's also only one of several of the demographics that make up our playerbase that we're trying to serve with both solo queue and the professional scene. Let me elaborate: > > Group A - Just wants to play League doesn't care about the pro scene > Group B - Enjoys League, tunes in occasionally to watch the pro scene (usually for big things like playoff finals, MSI, Worlds) > Group C - Enjoys League, watches LCS religiously (every weekend they make time to watch every game or atleast the games with their favorite teams. > Group D - Used to play League, doesn't anymore, but still watches the LCS because they like the pro scene > Group E - Never played League before, but I friend told them it was pretty cool and got them to watch a few games. > > *These groups are not all encompassing, but what I'm trying to outline is that the number of people that care about there being some amount of focus put on pro play balance is far greater than just the players that actually play professionally. > > Now, more direct to your point, I have a desire/goal for a future where we don't have to make as many changes to champions based on their performance in pro play nearly as much as we do now. Right now we're beset by two conflicting goals, we (Riot) really want pro play to be as exciting as possible, and professional teams really want to win, more or less regardless of the tactics. Why these conflict is that the path to victory is often one of min maxing for risk/reward - which manifests as choosing more generically strong champions with less pronounced weaknesses, and then out macroing the shit out of your opponent. Why choose Zed when you can pick Ryze who's proven to have far fewer weaknesses when playing in a low ping, highly coordinated environment as an example? In order to make Zed a more likely pick in pro, we'd likely need to buff him drastically to overcome his weaknesses/counterplay - which is a surefire way of putting him in crazy territory for our average solo queue warrior. Since that isn't really a great option, we need to find another way. We're currently putting some brainpower in how we could help shelter pro play from specific points of imbalance, letting us put less focus on pro play in regards to balance and focusing more on the regular game. It sucks to have your champion heavily nerfed, especially when it's for something you don't care about, we totally understand that, and ideally we can find a world where that can become less of a thing that we need to do. Potential avenues could be exploring changes to the drafting phase beyond 10 bans. There really isn't much to talk about yet though. > > At the end of the day we highly value League as a spectator sport, and we'll continue to make changes that we believe help achieve that. We just need to make sure we're doing our diligence when we're making big changes that could impact the way the players actually engage with the game and make sure the cost is worth it. I stand by our decision to remove trackers as an example, as I firmly believe the value in terms of "quality of game" we get both in pro and normal was worth the cost of removing that one item. To close off, we simply can't shackle ourselves by only making decisions that all players will find agreeable, as doing so would mean we should probably just stop making any meaningful changes to the game period, and that's not a world that I think we should be moving towards. > > ps - the archangels change is only archangels. Once it's upgraded to Seraph's you get the full 3% ap again. Right now it's simply too good as a rush item when it's intended to be more mid/late game scaling power spike. Also I'd like to add that League USED to keep me going in life and gave me meaning to life. I'd get home from high school and be like "Time to get better at this game!" or "Time to play with friends and have fun!" but it seems that times have changed, haven't they? The reason I'm being personal now is because your comment is no less than disrespectful to me, a player who has sunk many years into this game (as well as 3k of my wallet) and it's an insult for my continued support of your company. All my friends have since quit League and moved onto other (better) games such as Fortnite, Overwatch, PUBG, CS:GO and games of the sort. I can no longer get better at this game because this game has become less about your individual skill and more about winning the lottery and getting 4 other half-decent players on your team (because solo-carrying is next to non-existent unless you're smurfing now). It doesn't help when both of my favourite champions were reworked for the worst..... Furthermore, me devoting 6k+ hours into League has pigeon holed me into ONLY being really good at one game. This is an issue since League promotes the egotistic side of a person, and as such I cannot play a single other game without having unrealistic goals implanted into my mind upon initially playing it. Due to this I just can't play any other game for a long amount of time as nothing can fill in the gap for League. As such this leads to me being depressed and is probably the main reason as to why I procrastinate so much right now, despite the fact that I know I could do anything if I apply myself. But that's the problem, I can't. My mind refuses to do so since it's so used to that "be better than everyone" attitude that I cannot just view a task from a fun or productive POV. Case and point, I do my university assignments, but I get so competitive that I lose all enjoyment that I should get from doing them, since that is clouded by "I want to beat everyone in my course" mindset. ------------------------------------------------- I know you probably do not give a damn about how League effects your community's lives due to the fact that money and popularity are your primary goals, but please....listen to me. League means so much for so many people. Believe it or not this game is a whole lot more than a game to some people in this day and age, despite how farfetched this sounds. You saying that the goal should revolve around pro play even more is nothing short of spitting in your community's face. Who do you think funds your company? That's right, the players. Who supports you in your decisions? The players. Who gives you feedback on your decisions to further improve the game? The players. However it seems apparent that Riot has since abandoned "the player comes first" mindset for "the e-sports scene comes first" mindset. It's no surprise that Fortnite is already seeing more success than League has been seeing these past few years. Fortnite focuses on the player and the player's experience in the game. Even if an e-sports scene does kick off for it in some way it will remain as a "for the player" game since that's what its devs. have agreed upon and shown in their work. Now then, on that note, what has League done FOR the player over the last 3 years? Well, we've gotten a new client, lootboxes as our primary means of earning in-game currency, new runes, many new champions and complete revamps on champion lores. But wait........the players didn't ask for those changes at all. No one complained about IP, no one complained about the old client, no one wanted new runes and no one wanted new champions added nor lores changed. Even with the "it's to make the game more enticing" mindset it still doesn't compute to any current players. Why fix what ain't broke? Also, need I mention the assassin update? Yeaaahhh you probably know that was a complete and utter failure right now, however you'll never acknowledge it because Riot lacks the courage it once had to admit mistakes. If your comment is 100% authentic then I suggest you continue to read feedback from your players, especially veteran players who have stuck with you guys since many seasons ago (such as myself), since you really need some further insight into why changing the game for one specific group is simply the wrong decision. IF you did get around to reading this I must thank you, since it means a lot. I mean well, however I have to take a jab at your comment since it's not logical at all.
: You need two versions then. Sorry - it's what is necessary BECAUSE the skill disparity and motivation to play ARE so different. And, let's be honest. RIGHT NOW the games are not the same. LCS is 2-3 patches behind, nigh constantly. There are changes in 2-3 patches that shift EVERYTHING about how the game is played. That may not be desired, but it's the reality as it stands. The best example I have, and it sucks but I'm sleepy is suggesting what it would be like if any sport of your choosing suddentl redid it's rules ALL the time, BUT now the groups who play in the weekends casually at the gym HAVE to play that way too. Over and over again, and it will be different next month, possibly next year too. Because you now have a spectator sport that's a consideration you have to have for your players and if not, it's because they're not your focus. Fact is your players are struggling because they are not the focus any more. That's probably not a bad thing, objectively, but if you all are confused by the vitriol, that's why you're feeling it. It's the natural progression of small, indie companies (not the meme, I actually wayyy back when LoL WAS niche) who then grow huge but you all may be the first to spike so hard and fast into a MASSIVE international spectacle, what with the franchising and general exposure and validity you've brought to E-sports. You're trying to create parity between two totally different beasts who sport the same colors. What is enjoyable to watch for a casual, play for a casual, watch for a pro AND play for a Pro ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Players need to understand that complexity but maybe that complexity predicates the need to look into this. I dunno what the solution is, but that's what's happening. You're heading in a completely different direction than your players want you to go or thought they would go, and they don't -know- it yet bc you're not really saying so. I feel you're trying to grow your brand and international presence, which you NEED to do because I feel you all are pioneers for legitimacy in Esports, but either you're okay with the casual side (SoloQ) repeatedly getting left behind or you'll address that, and I don't know how else you could tbh, other than separate the realms, so to speak. You, you're, your, and yours = Riot btw. I'm still playing just about every day and I genuinely feel enjoyment - a good deal- of the time. I will admit it has dropped a fair amount in the last two seasons, but mostly because for me, I can't find consistency anymore in LoL. *I get it - Riot will flourish more greatly by focusing on it's success in ESports, at this point I feel that is undeniable. What's sad is you're not able to find a way to not ostracize the players who got you there, so to speak. it's a tough af dilemma, but know that a lot of the negativity comes from a legit place of enjoyment that they can't find anymore.
> [{quoted}](name=Super%%%%%,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1UbZdRKB,comment-id=00180015,timestamp=2018-04-12T14:24:07.929+0000) > > You need two versions then. Sorry - it's what is necessary BECAUSE the skill disparity and motivation to play ARE so different. > > And, let's be honest. RIGHT NOW the games are not the same. > > LCS is 2-3 patches behind, nigh constantly. There are changes in 2-3 patches that shift EVERYTHING about how the game is played. That may not be desired, but it's the reality as it stands. > > The best example I have, and it sucks but I'm sleepy is suggesting what it would be like if any sport of your choosing suddentl redid it's rules ALL the time, BUT now the groups who play in the weekends casually at the gym HAVE to play that way too. Over and over again, and it will be different next month, possibly next year too. Because you now have a spectator sport that's a consideration you have to have for your players and if not, it's because they're not your focus. > > Fact is your players are struggling because they are not the focus any more. That's probably not a bad thing, objectively, but if you all are confused by the vitriol, that's why you're feeling it. > > It's the natural progression of small, indie companies (not the meme, I actually wayyy back when LoL WAS niche) who then grow huge but you all may be the first to spike so hard and fast into a MASSIVE international spectacle, what with the franchising and general exposure and validity you've brought to E-sports. > > You're trying to create parity between two totally different beasts who sport the same colors. What is enjoyable to watch for a casual, play for a casual, watch for a pro AND play for a Pro ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Players need to understand that complexity but maybe that complexity predicates the need to look into this. > > I dunno what the solution is, but that's what's happening. You're heading in a completely different direction than your players want you to go or thought they would go, and they don't -know- it yet bc you're not really saying so. > > I feel you're trying to grow your brand and international presence, which you NEED to do because I feel you all are pioneers for legitimacy in Esports, but either you're okay with the casual side (SoloQ) repeatedly getting left behind or you'll address that, and I don't know how else you could tbh, other than separate the realms, so to speak. > > You, you're, your, and yours = Riot btw. > > I'm still playing just about every day and I genuinely feel enjoyment - a good deal- of the time. I will admit it has dropped a fair amount in the last two seasons, but mostly because for me, I can't find consistency anymore in LoL. > > *I get it - Riot will flourish more greatly by focusing on it's success in ESports, at this point I feel that is undeniable. What's sad is you're not able to find a way to not ostracize the players who got you there, so to speak. it's a tough af dilemma, but know that a lot of the negativity comes from a legit place of enjoyment that they can't find anymore. Preach it. We need Riot to go back to its roots and once again become the "for the player, by the player" company that it once was.
: Balanced for everyone until pros actually took off and the LCS became a force to be reckoned with, sure. Did you know that rules and balancing for traditional sports have been changed due to the extraordinary talents of individuals? Here's an article about it here: http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/03/athletes-who-forced-sports-league-rule-changes/bob-gibson Look, I'm Gold V, hardly one to talk about balance, but I find pro play to be super exciting. I get to see people who pull of moves and feats I can only dream of doing right now. The skill of these players is insane. But claiming all Riot needs to do is backtrack 5+ years of balancing is absurd. And I do believe balancing for everyone can be possible, but its gonna be really fucking hard. The better you are at a game, the more precise you the mechanics of the game need to be not only to offer challenge, but to also make sure you cant just abuse mechanics meant for less skilled players. For example, mouse and keyboard vs controller. Console shooters normally have some bullet magnetism because its harder to be super precise with a joy stick. However, bullet magnetism is nigh non existent on PC because mouse and keyboard is way more precise. Play CoD on console and then on PC - its a completely different experience. That's why its hard to compare balancing on PC and consoles for the same game - it just isn't possible. Certain weapons and abilities may be stronger with bullet magnetism enabled vs not enabled so it changes the game. Same goes for league. Riot is trying to find a way to give us lower elo people some bullet magnetism while also making sure pro play and high elo soloq warriors can't abuse it. Its a delicate process and honestly? I think they are doing a good job so far. For me, pro play is still interesting to watch and soloq is still shit tons of fun. Anyway, that's my rant on the subject. Let me know if I am unclear at all, I'll try to further explain it. I'm just not used to posting online so I don't know how to explain this super fluently. Thanks for reading mate, and have a good one.
> [{quoted}](name=weasley009,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1UbZdRKB,comment-id=001800140001,timestamp=2018-04-12T18:54:24.829+0000) > > Balanced for everyone until pros actually took off and the LCS became a force to be reckoned with, sure. Did you know that rules and balancing for traditional sports have been changed due to the extraordinary talents of individuals? Here's an article about it here: http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/03/athletes-who-forced-sports-league-rule-changes/bob-gibson > > Look, I'm Gold V, hardly one to talk about balance, but I find pro play to be super exciting. I get to see people who pull of moves and feats I can only dream of doing right now. The skill of these players is insane. But claiming all Riot needs to do is backtrack 5+ years of balancing is absurd. And I do believe balancing for everyone can be possible, but its gonna be really fucking hard. The better you are at a game, the more precise you the mechanics of the game need to be not only to offer challenge, but to also make sure you cant just abuse mechanics meant for less skilled players. For example, mouse and keyboard vs controller. Console shooters normally have some bullet magnetism because its harder to be super precise with a joy stick. However, bullet magnetism is nigh non existent on PC because mouse and keyboard is way more precise. Play CoD on console and then on PC - its a completely different experience. That's why its hard to compare balancing on PC and consoles for the same game - it just isn't possible. Certain weapons and abilities may be stronger with bullet magnetism enabled vs not enabled so it changes the game. Same goes for league. Riot is trying to find a way to give us lower elo people some bullet magnetism while also making sure pro play and high elo soloq warriors can't abuse it. Its a delicate process and honestly? I think they are doing a good job so far. For me, pro play is still interesting to watch and soloq is still shit tons of fun. > > Anyway, that's my rant on the subject. Let me know if I am unclear at all, I'll try to further explain it. I'm just not used to posting online so I don't know how to explain this super fluently. Thanks for reading mate, and have a good one. Ok, so real sports are a whole different ball game (hehe pun) than e-sports. Real sports have consistency in how the roles are played, video games have a HUGE variety of different angles to which you can approach the game from because you're given options such as different guns and characters. Additionally, why not have two different games for the LCS? Sure, there would be the issue of "our team would lack practice", but hey, if you're the best players in the world you can surely adapt. Also, most sports nowadays have their rules shared between casual and professional play. The only exception to this is when refs. are more lenient when it comes to some rules in casual play. What do you find exciting about pro play right now? If you seriously find a low kill meta which revolves around tanks, supports, ADCs and 5v5 deathballs then you really need to watch some LCS matches from season 2 to season 5. Excuse my french but back then it was a shitfest, kills happened everywhere and anywhere, and there was no guaranteed way you could stop it without giving up XP and gold. Currently teams can just win by utilising catch-up XP and by winning just ONE 5v5 deathball fight. There's really no downside to playing passive anymore since one fight can generally turn the game around since the game in its current state is just volatile, towers can be taken down in less than 3 seconds and baron just melts in a similar timespan. Your point regarding the different mechanics for different ways of controlling yourself in FPS games is borderline irrelevant since League does not have this. Riot has never tried to give low elo players anything, except for nerfing certain pubstomp champions in the past (such as Kat and old Fiora). I can't tell you whether or not you should find solo queue fun, however my opinion of solo queue is the opposite. Solo queue is hell. You're put on a team with 4 other players who are more than likely toxic and wish you were never born and just ONE bad teammate can result in that big red Defeat icon showing after only 15-20 minutes of you playing. Plus, even if I play my best it won't bloody matter because my bot laners are chimps from the local zoo who don't know what a "?" ping means besides it being used for BMing your own teammates. So tell me, what do you find fun about this current meta? I'd love to know because I've pretty much given up on solo queue at this point despite my many attempts at getting close to reaching Chall.
Centur (EUW)
: Let's be fair, as a cutting edge raiding WoW player myself, I'm well aware Ghostcrawler wasn't the only motive why pvp went downhill (which has always been bad even during WotLK). He's got a team behind him with A LOT of people. He's just the man that gotta speak up, and everyone points their guns at him.
> [{quoted}](name=Centur,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L7p7Gpwq,comment-id=000600020001,timestamp=2018-04-12T15:35:50.364+0000) > > Let's be fair, as a cutting edge raiding WoW player myself, I'm well aware Ghostcrawler wasn't the only motive why pvp went downhill (which has always been bad even during WotLK). He's got a team behind him with A LOT of people. He's just the man that gotta speak up, and everyone points their guns at him. Yeah, but he had some questionable motives for a guy that only played healer and had no real knowledge of the other roles.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lovesick,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L7p7Gpwq,comment-id=0006000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-12T11:00:19.806+0000) > > Hey, I never said CertainlyT was better than Ghostcrawler, quite the opposite. I just want people to know that CertainlyT is far from the biggest problem to do with LoL and Riot games. But you can't deny that CertainlyT's actions are more apparent, and as much he does fuck up and get rightful hate for it, he doesn't threaten the stability of the game overall.
> [{quoted}](name=DragonShea,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L7p7Gpwq,comment-id=00060002000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-12T11:39:33.329+0000) > > But you can't deny that CertainlyT's actions are more apparent, and as much he does fuck up and get rightful hate for it, he doesn't threaten the stability of the game overall. Yeah, I can agree with that.
: To start off, you're 100% correct in expressing frustration when you feel the game **you** play is negatively impacted by balance decisions that are made focused on the highest levels of play. You're opinion is one that's certainly shared by a large group of players, but it's also only one of several of the demographics that make up our playerbase that we're trying to serve with both solo queue and the professional scene. Let me elaborate: Group A - Just wants to play League doesn't care about the pro scene Group B - Enjoys League, tunes in occasionally to watch the pro scene (usually for big things like playoff finals, MSI, Worlds) Group C - Enjoys League, watches LCS religiously (every weekend they make time to watch every game or atleast the games with their favorite teams. Group D - Used to play League, doesn't anymore, but still watches the LCS because they like the pro scene Group E - Never played League before, but I friend told them it was pretty cool and got them to watch a few games. *These groups are not all encompassing, but what I'm trying to outline is that the number of people that care about there being some amount of focus put on pro play balance is far greater than just the players that actually play professionally. Now, more direct to your point, I have a desire/goal for a future where we don't have to make as many changes to champions based on their performance in pro play nearly as much as we do now. Right now we're beset by two conflicting goals, we (Riot) really want pro play to be as exciting as possible, and professional teams really want to win, more or less regardless of the tactics. Why these conflict is that the path to victory is often one of min maxing for risk/reward - which manifests as choosing more generically strong champions with less pronounced weaknesses, and then out macroing the shit out of your opponent. Why choose Zed when you can pick Ryze who's proven to have far fewer weaknesses when playing in a low ping, highly coordinated environment as an example? In order to make Zed a more likely pick in pro, we'd likely need to buff him drastically to overcome his weaknesses/counterplay - which is a surefire way of putting him in crazy territory for our average solo queue warrior. Since that isn't really a great option, we need to find another way. We're currently putting some brainpower in how we could help shelter pro play from specific points of imbalance, letting us put less focus on pro play in regards to balance and focusing more on the regular game. It sucks to have your champion heavily nerfed, especially when it's for something you don't care about, we totally understand that, and ideally we can find a world where that can become less of a thing that we need to do. Potential avenues could be exploring changes to the drafting phase beyond 10 bans. There really isn't much to talk about yet though. At the end of the day we highly value League as a spectator sport, and we'll continue to make changes that we believe help achieve that. We just need to make sure we're doing our diligence when we're making big changes that could impact the way the players actually engage with the game and make sure the cost is worth it. I stand by our decision to remove trackers as an example, as I firmly believe the value in terms of "quality of game" we get both in pro and normal was worth the cost of removing that one item. To close off, we simply can't shackle ourselves by only making decisions that all players will find agreeable, as doing so would mean we should probably just stop making any meaningful changes to the game period, and that's not a world that I think we should be moving towards. ps - the archangels change is only archangels. Once it's upgraded to Seraph's you get the full 3% ap again. Right now it's simply too good as a rush item when it's intended to be more mid/late game scaling power spike.
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1UbZdRKB,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2018-04-11T21:58:02.750+0000) > > To start off, you're 100% correct in expressing frustration when you feel the game **you** play is negatively impacted by balance decisions that are made focused on the highest levels of play. You're opinion is one that's certainly shared by a large group of players, but it's also only one of several of the demographics that make up our playerbase that we're trying to serve with both solo queue and the professional scene. Let me elaborate: > > Group A - Just wants to play League doesn't care about the pro scene > Group B - Enjoys League, tunes in occasionally to watch the pro scene (usually for big things like playoff finals, MSI, Worlds) > Group C - Enjoys League, watches LCS religiously (every weekend they make time to watch every game or atleast the games with their favorite teams. > Group D - Used to play League, doesn't anymore, but still watches the LCS because they like the pro scene > Group E - Never played League before, but I friend told them it was pretty cool and got them to watch a few games. > > *These groups are not all encompassing, but what I'm trying to outline is that the number of people that care about there being some amount of focus put on pro play balance is far greater than just the players that actually play professionally. > > Now, more direct to your point, I have a desire/goal for a future where we don't have to make as many changes to champions based on their performance in pro play nearly as much as we do now. Right now we're beset by two conflicting goals, we (Riot) really want pro play to be as exciting as possible, and professional teams really want to win, more or less regardless of the tactics. Why these conflict is that the path to victory is often one of min maxing for risk/reward - which manifests as choosing more generically strong champions with less pronounced weaknesses, and then out macroing the shit out of your opponent. Why choose Zed when you can pick Ryze who's proven to have far fewer weaknesses when playing in a low ping, highly coordinated environment as an example? In order to make Zed a more likely pick in pro, we'd likely need to buff him drastically to overcome his weaknesses/counterplay - which is a surefire way of putting him in crazy territory for our average solo queue warrior. Since that isn't really a great option, we need to find another way. We're currently putting some brainpower in how we could help shelter pro play from specific points of imbalance, letting us put less focus on pro play in regards to balance and focusing more on the regular game. It sucks to have your champion heavily nerfed, especially when it's for something you don't care about, we totally understand that, and ideally we can find a world where that can become less of a thing that we need to do. Potential avenues could be exploring changes to the drafting phase beyond 10 bans. There really isn't much to talk about yet though. > > At the end of the day we highly value League as a spectator sport, and we'll continue to make changes that we believe help achieve that. We just need to make sure we're doing our diligence when we're making big changes that could impact the way the players actually engage with the game and make sure the cost is worth it. I stand by our decision to remove trackers as an example, as I firmly believe the value in terms of "quality of game" we get both in pro and normal was worth the cost of removing that one item. To close off, we simply can't shackle ourselves by only making decisions that all players will find agreeable, as doing so would mean we should probably just stop making any meaningful changes to the game period, and that's not a world that I think we should be moving towards. > > ps - the archangels change is only archangels. Once it's upgraded to Seraph's you get the full 3% ap again. Right now it's simply too good as a rush item when it's intended to be more mid/late game scaling power spike. Ok Mapple, there are just a few issues with what you've said. ---------------- Issue one: >"we (Riot) really want pro play to be as exciting as possible" Why say this when LoL's professional play is currently THE most boring it's ever been both as a spectator sport and as a sport which our pro players play? You guys are promoting nye-unkillable tanks such as Sejuani and Maokai as well as completely overtuning both bot lane positions just so there's a guaranteed way for pros to win if they stall for long enough. Furthermore you guys are also anti-assassin in terms of pro play since apparently they're toxic to watch as a spectator, which I could not disagree with more. You mention Zed here: "Why choose Zed when you can pick Ryze who's proven to have far fewer weaknesses when playing in a low ping, highly coordinated environment as an example?" and yet he's always Riot's scapegoat in terms of getting assassins into pro play. Other assassins do exist y'know......and believe it or not they're actually MORE healthy than Zed is. Additionally, Riot loves to instantly nerf high damage melee champions when they're picked in pro play, despite the fact that Ghostcrawler once said that melee champions in this game need some loving. Where am I coming from with this? Well, you instantly nerf any assassin that is seen in professional play, as well as some niche high damage bruisers (such as Shyvana). Case and point: What's this, Katarina has been played 4-5 times in the current LCS split across all regions and has won 1-3 matches? Oop, better nerf her like 6 times. Oh? Leblanc is getting picked in pro play? REAL SHIT. What's this, Xayah and Ezreal has a 51%+ winrate with a 40% pickrate in solo queue and a near 100% pickrate in the LCS? Nah, we'll wait to them. Also Janna......seriously a 54%+ winrate across ALL elos and ALL regions, with a 15%+ winrate and NO (relevant) nerfs. If that isn't bias I don't know what is. Another example of a champion that is just boring to face in both forms of play (as well as powerful) is Ryze. Like....where are your changes to make him more fair to play against? This is purely a personal gripe, but seriously, this champion is nuts and Riot has done nothing about him apart from heavily buffing him with the AP itemisation update. ------------------ Issue two: >"Potential avenues could be exploring changes to the drafting phase beyond 10 bans." Just stop releasing champions, plain and simple. There are far too many champions for a normal human player to keep track of, and the only reason any CAN is because they've devoted 4000+ hours to the game like I have. The game doesn't need more champions right now, it needs to be further refined in how it's balanced and in its lore. We do not need more than 10 bans in this game, we just need the number of champions to not increase for a bit, and for the already existing champions to be properly balanced so we don't have to deal with the current situation where we have other 50 problem children which all need to be banned. --------------- Issue three: >" I stand by our decision to remove trackers as an example, as I firmly believe the value in terms of "quality of game" we get both in pro and normal was worth the cost of removing that one item." Yeah, and you guys pretty much neutered what was originally Lee's most fun aspect for picking him, his ward hops. It's like you guys completely forgot about Lee when you removed BOTH Sightstone and Tracker's....and I doubt you're ever planning to release an item just for Lee to use. It's funny because Lee is arguably the most popular champion in the game, or at least **WAS** until the game became more bot lane focused and solo carrying deteriorated. -------------- Issue four: >"....strong champions with less pronounced weaknesses." That sounds exactly like most of the current viable champions in the LCS :D ------------------------ Issue five: >"To close off, we simply can't shackle ourselves by only making decisions that all players will find agreeable, as doing so would mean we should probably just stop making any meaningful changes to the game period, and that's not a world that I think we should be moving towards." League was once a prosperous game, and in that time the game was indeed.....**balanced for everyone**. You saying that Riot cannot shackle yourselves to do so is simply to do with the hole which all of you have dug for yourselves. Right now you guys can't balance for all players purely because you've been balancing for a specific area that if you *did* start to balance for everyone it wouldn't work because your current playerbase is filled with toxic egotists who only care about winning and seeing an increase to the number on their shiny little medal known as their rank. Now, that's not to say you *can't* balance for everyone, you definitely can. All Riot needs to do is backtrack to when the game was once amazing and then reconsider their balance choices as well as their design choices. League should stop trying to be like every other game and just go back to being League. League is not Crysis where graphics mean everything. League is not Overwatch, we do not need nor want lootboxes as our primary means of progressing in level. League is not Sm4sh, we do not need to only focus on pro play when making balance changes. League is not Hearthstone where we should have an overabundance of content (champions) that we need to take in just to get better at the game. Believe it or not, you can't just paint a turd and make it look like it isn't turd. By doing that you've just made a shiny turd that everyone will now notice. That is my analogy for League right now. You guys are trying to make it look amazing with your recent choices, however at the end of the day it's still just a shiny turd which is only doing well because players refuse to give up hope and quit, since they believe there will indeed be light at the end of the tunnel if they stick with League.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lovesick,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L7p7Gpwq,comment-id=00060002,timestamp=2018-04-12T09:32:10.287+0000) > > We know what Ghostcrawler brings to the table, he ruined WoW almost entirely to the point where entire guilds just quit raiding for year and quit PvPing. Then I'd like to know the specifics, many people will just say, GHOSTCRAWLER IS A RETARD SHFOSTHNSONETOSN !!¤="u0423. But I am not interested in that bullshit. What I want is facts because the very people that are complaining about GC are ironically his biggest defenders as their ranting is creating a smokescreen for his antics, We know exact what CertainlyT does, he makes game breaking champs that have unique abilities that is beyond the norm. As a semi-retired WoW player I can tell that there are similarities with GC's changing/"ruining"(I am being generous here) the game, I see a change of favoritism towards ranged damage dealers, nerfing fighters while leaving skirmishers free from the nerfing, Tanks are OP and so are Enchanters. Ignorance of negative impacts of the game for periods unheard of, more distacts between the devs and the player base in general(still better than WoW) Thing is, ambiguity is a powerful weapon and armor.
> [{quoted}](name=DragonShea,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L7p7Gpwq,comment-id=000600020000,timestamp=2018-04-12T09:55:58.976+0000) > > Then I'd like to know the specifics, many people will just say, GHOSTCRAWLER IS A RETARD SHFOSTHNSONETOSN !!¤="u0423. But I am not interested in that bullshit. What I want is facts because the very people that are complaining about GC are ironically his biggest defenders as their ranting is creating a smokescreen for his antics, We know exact what CertainlyT does, he makes game breaking champs that have unique abilities that is beyond the norm. > > As a semi-retired WoW player I can tell that there are similarities with GC's changing/"ruining"(I am being generous here) the game, I see a change of favoritism towards ranged damage dealers, nerfing fighters while leaving skirmishers free from the nerfing, Tanks are OP and so are Enchanters. Ignorance of negative impacts of the game for periods unheard of, more distacts between the devs and the player base in general(still better than WoW) > > Thing is, ambiguity is a powerful weapon and armor. Hey, I never said CertainlyT was better than Ghostcrawler, quite the opposite. I just want people to know that CertainlyT is far from the biggest problem to do with LoL and Riot games.
Azadethe (NA)
: Why is Riot even experimenting with this stupid Archangel's Nerf?
{{champion:13}} <----- This fucker ruined the item and it's almost like Riot completely forgot that Ryze has an insane synergy with this item. The moment the rework for Archangel's was announced I knew it would make Ryze even more broken.
Poske (EUNE)
: Main issue with this item the fact that ap assassins dont care about ms boost {{champion:7}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost {{champion:55}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost {{champion:84}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost {{champion:38}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost {{champion:105}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost give us something else
> [{quoted}](name=Poske,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A0TEhvdV,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-04-10T22:49:43.172+0000) > > Main issue with this item the fact that ap assassins dont care about ms boost > > {{champion:7}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost > {{champion:55}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost > {{champion:84}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost > {{champion:38}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost > {{champion:105}} - doesnt give a fk about ms boost > > give us something else Kat does give a fuck about a ms boost. It's just that she cannot wait 100 spells to effectively do it.
: Then what about Ghostcrawler, people talk so much shit about him but there is rarely anyone that sets the record straight about him, is he good, is he ok, or is he an utter gobshite, Unlike CertainlyT, we dont know what stuff he does that is good or bad and at least we all know what CertainlyT brings to the table.
> [{quoted}](name=DragonShea,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L7p7Gpwq,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-04-11T10:08:33.614+0000) > > Then what about Ghostcrawler, people talk so much shit about him but there is rarely anyone that sets the record straight about him, is he good, is he ok, or is he an utter gobshite, Unlike CertainlyT, we dont know what stuff he does that is good or bad and at least we all know what CertainlyT brings to the table. We know what Ghostcrawler brings to the table, he ruined WoW almost entirely to the point where entire guilds just quit raiding for year and quit PvPing.
: What do you guys think is the strongest role in the game?
ADC->Support->Jungle->Mid->Top That's my personal order of influence in terms of roles.
: Anybody else notice how quickly the ADC hate threads died down since Trist and Twitch got nerfed?
Yeah, now it's Xayah and Kai'sa. But hey, Trist is easily more bs than both of them since her mobility, self-peel and pushing power+tower taking power are all obnoxious.
saltran (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lovesick,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jj43HQ5Z,comment-id=00030001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-10T02:49:39.546+0000) > > Good abilities = good laning phase > > Q = free attack speed steroid+semi-stealth (repositioning) > W = slow+faster stacking for E > E = a nuke at 6 stacks > R = a really good fighting tool (bonus AD+line damage+bonus range) No, he's garbage in lane and you have never played him or you are lying if you think he's strong in lane.
> [{quoted}](name=saltran,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jj43HQ5Z,comment-id=000300010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-10T05:23:08.382+0000) > > No, he&#x27;s garbage in lane and you have never played him or you are lying if you think he&#x27;s strong in lane. I'm mastery 7 with him and he's my 2nd most played ADC :) He is strong in lane, it's just that he's not strong as in "LUL harass", instead he's strong in the sense that he wins most all-ins and he can win forced trades due to his high sustained damage. The only times I lose lane as Twitch is when my support literally does nothing and the enemy support is allowed to do w/e they want.
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Lovesick

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