: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T10:33:50.545+0000) > > I think the only reason you're thinking it's "bonkers" is because you're imaginaning that his autos would do a ton of damage to every minion but you can have a pretty severe damage falloff after the initial targets. > > It's something that you'd have to play around with but I think it's balancable. At which point I must ask, what's the point of the auto's being aoe at that point?
> [{quoted}](name=SpecterVonBaren,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T18:32:02.574+0000) > > At which point I must ask, what's the point of the auto's being aoe at that point? What do you mean? he'd have to be able to shoot through minions to make him a viable ADC and he'd have to have damage fall off after the first target otherwise he'd be broken so those two are just the reality of bringing him into the bot lane, if you want to keep the feel of his current rework then those two changes are almost non negotionable. Also for some reason Riot and some people that play league want Graves to *feel* like he's shooting a shot gun and these changes would make him a viable, unique adc while retaining the shot gun feel. It also allows for interesting and unique gameplay and laning.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:22:34.952+0000) > > My point is, Graves was COMPLETELY removed from the bot lane and the frustrating thing is if you just increased his range to 500 or 525 and allowed him to shoot through minions with diminishing damage after the first target hit, he'd be a REALLY cool UNIQUE ADC, but they don't want to do it, and that shits me the most. He already is a cool unique ADC, just go bot with him, he can do it. He may be better in the jungle, but he's only been "completely removed from bot lane" because of player perception and expectations. Quinn is the other example, she can go bot, but is significantly better at top.
> [{quoted}](name=Paletongue,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2019-06-03T15:12:34.834+0000) > > He already is a cool unique ADC, just go bot with him, he can do it. He may be better in the jungle, but he's only been "completely removed from bot lane" because of player perception and expectations. Quinn is the other example, she can go bot, but is significantly better at top. You should go play 20 games as Graves ADC and post your opgg after and also tell me how much fun you had.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T18:15:20.008+0000) > > I just don't understand why they didn't make the changes I suggested in my post or something like that because I don't think it was too late in fact I still think it isn't too late. Even if the changes you proposed would have gone through then he would the best wave clear in the game. Remember Graves jungle one shotting people with a single auto attack and old dark harvest. Making that hit multiple people on a higher range than it is currently would be game breaking because you could delete multiple people as a relatively tanky adc with either 1 auto+r or 2 autos. As an adc he would still want to get in your face because of his passive that makes him unique meaning he would either have to have stupidly low damages or a single target auto attack, killing the thing that makes him unique. And as a top lane main man I would love to have Shyvana, Vi, Yi, Xin, Kayn and Gragas be balanced around top lane again, but they will probably never be balanced around the lane again, because that would make their jungle (their best roles) be broken beyond belief. Please think about what your suggestions would do to the game if they were implemented in the future.
> [{quoted}](name=thechosenmaster,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-03T17:50:47.866+0000) > > Even if the changes you proposed would have gone through then he would the best wave clear in the game. Remember Graves jungle one shotting people with a single auto attack and old dark harvest. Making that hit multiple people on a higher range than it is currently would be game breaking because you could delete multiple people as a relatively tanky adc with either 1 auto+r or 2 autos. As an adc he would still want to get in your face because of his passive that makes him unique meaning he would either have to have stupidly low damages or a single target auto attack, killing the thing that makes him unique. And as a top lane main man I would love to have Shyvana, Vi, Yi, Xin, Kayn and Gragas be balanced around top lane again, but they will probably never be balanced around the lane again, because that would make their jungle (their best roles) be broken beyond belief. Please think about what your suggestions would do to the game if they were implemented in the future. I've played a lot of Graves latley and let me tell youI've almost never one shot anybody with 1 auto. Besides that you have to remember his autos would have a severe damage fall off after the first target hit. It's part of the reason why I originally thought his reload speed should remain the same the entire game and not get faster but people argued he'd be way too weak late game if that was how it worked. But I think it's balancable, you'd just have to tweak his reload speed, you could also reduce the width of his cone aa since he has extra range now.
Leetri (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=JackMcSnipeyz,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-06-03T11:01:53.614+0000) > > The biggest crime is the reason Graves was reworked in the first place was because him and Lucian filled the same niche - Burst ability based marksmen. > > But for some reason, instead of keeping him botlane and changing Lucian, they scrapped the original burst marksmen. > > I'd pay money to be able to get his old kit back.. They changed Graves because the theme fit Lucian better. Graves used to be my 2nd favourite ADC, but I understand why they changed him.
> [{quoted}](name=Leetri,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-06-03T15:46:52.415+0000) > > They changed Graves because the theme fit Lucian better. Graves used to be my 2nd favourite ADC, but I understand why they changed him. My question wasn't why did they rework him it's why did they **remove him from the bot lane** you can rework Graves and keep him as an ADC, it's a real shame that they essentially turned him into a jungler.
: I miss Graves ADC, and the concept of a manly man IS missing from the role (I like primarily tanky chicks like Leona, but here we are with the crickets otherwise). But if you step back from this, Graves would NOT be very unique if you put him in bot with your changes. A dash, a minor utility AoE, and short range. Also to boot, his kit would be absolute ass for anything other than wave clear... Which he'd still suck at. His numbers would have to go way higher, which would end up busting him because he'd get played again in the jungle anyways. His q and primary damage is reliant on walls and quick burst, and 2 shot autos would be highly exploitable, leaving him insanely mana hungry for constantly dashing or just getting straight shoved in.
> [{quoted}](name=Darwin Award,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-06-03T11:39:03.807+0000) > > I miss Graves ADC, and the concept of a manly man IS missing from the role (I like primarily tanky chicks like Leona, but here we are with the crickets otherwise). > > But if you step back from this, Graves would NOT be very unique if you put him in bot with your changes. A dash, a minor utility AoE, and short range. > > Also to boot, his kit would be absolute ass for anything other than wave clear... Which he'd still suck at. His numbers would have to go way higher, which would end up busting him because he'd get played again in the jungle anyways. His q and primary damage is reliant on walls and quick burst, and 2 shot autos would be highly exploitable, leaving him insanely mana hungry for constantly dashing or just getting straight shoved in. When you say step back do you mean revert him? because honestly I'm all on board for that.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:37:17.059+0000) > > Let me clarify, I would give him those range buffs but I would take away the knockback so his jungling isn't insane and also what are you talking about? he's be incredibly unique. > > He'd be the ONLY ADC that has autos that do aoe cone damage, one of only 2 ADC's with a reload mechanic, he'd have a pretty low range of 500 or 525 which would make his playstyle very different to any other ADC, his autos not only go through minions but they deal less damage to evrything after the firt target which would give him a unique laning phase, I mean seriousy. His waveclear would be bonkers, do you not understand what having a resourceless, aoe, ranged waveclear means?
> [{quoted}](name=SpecterVonBaren,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T10:20:27.841+0000) > > His waveclear would be bonkers, do you not understand what having a resourceless, aoe, ranged waveclear means? I think the only reason you're thinking it's "bonkers" is because you're imaginaning that his autos would do a ton of damage to every minion but you can have a pretty severe damage falloff after the initial targets. It's something that you'd have to play around with but I think it's balancable.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T18:15:20.008+0000) > > I just don't understand why they didn't make the changes I suggested in my post or something like that because I don't think it was too late in fact I still think it isn't too late. The changes you suggest make his jungling even more oppressive. As long as he has the knockback on his autos for monster in the jungle he will be a jungler as it makes him able to take minimal damage from jungle camps. Your suggestion of range increase makes it worse.
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T04:28:57.032+0000) > > The changes you suggest make his jungling even more oppressive. As long as he has the knockback on his autos for monster in the jungle he will be a jungler as it makes him able to take minimal damage from jungle camps. Your suggestion of range increase makes it worse. Yeah, you'd definitley have to remove the knockback, I thought I edited that in my post but I didn't, I will now though.
: Because he was just a worse Lucian. They INTENDED for him to be an ADC, but he just worked far better as a jungler. I'm pretty sure they intend for Vlad and Ryze to be mid laners, but they work out better in top. They went with what the players liked, and they evidently liked Graves jungle. But nothing is stopping you from going Graves ADC. I used to play Kindred ADC.
> [{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-06-03T00:51:21.545+0000) > > Because he was just a worse Lucian. They INTENDED for him to be an ADC, but he just worked far better as a jungler. I'm pretty sure they intend for Vlad and Ryze to be mid laners, but they work out better in top. > > They went with what the players liked, and they evidently liked Graves jungle. But nothing is stopping you from going Graves ADC. I used to play Kindred ADC. You're saying they went with what players liked but as far as I know there's a very large portion of players, especially at the time of the rework that didn't like the new direction even today you have a lot of people who wish he was never reworked in the first place, me being one of them. You're saying they reworked him because he was a worse Lucian (something I disagree with) but my question wasn't *why* he was reworked it was *why was he removed from the bot lane* once he became a jungler they didn't make any effort at all to return him to the bot lane and honestly, I don't remember people loving jg Graves to the point where they just didn't care he wasn't an ADC anymore.
: > I mean none of these are really comparible, most of them besides the COMPLETE reworks like Poppy are very recognizable to thier previous selves either mechanically or you can still play them in the lane you played them before. Graves is also very similar to what he originally was. He's still a very durable short ranged ADC that actually makes sense when he outduels you in melee range. A lot of his damage is still AoE conal. As you can see, the little differences in mechanics and aesthetic can totally change how a champion feels. You had Graves taken from you, see if you can empathize with all the other reworks that took champions away from other people. It was necessary with Poppy, needed with Sion, but not everyone has been lucky as Heimerdinger's been (on both occasions) with reworks. > Graves is literally DELETED from bottom lane. In the words of the Super Top, Riot Ponytail: >Bruisers are just being removed from top lane. Jax is a jungler now. Xin is in the jungle. >Kayn top was the most fun I had had in years. Riot didn't like how corrupting pot allowed Kayn to transform too quickly so they fixed the interaction and removed him from top lane saying "oh, we'll rebalance him to be able to lane, don't worry". A week later, no one is paying attention and they say "no, we're not doing that anymore, we lied." It's like bruisers are in The Thing or something, being picked off one-by-one saying "oh, nothing is going on here, we're fine", we're constantly just being replaced. >Meanwhile what, Graves and Corki are removed from bot and ADCs scream bloody murder? When their picks are always viable and they only ever have to go up against one another?
> [{quoted}](name=Glaricion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T21:46:51.753+0000) > > Graves is also very similar to what he originally was. > He's still a very durable short ranged ADC that actually makes sense when he outduels you in melee range. > A lot of his damage is still AoE conal. > > As you can see, the little differences in mechanics and aesthetic can totally change how a champion feels. > > You had Graves taken from you, see if you can empathize with all the other reworks that took champions away from other people. > > It was necessary with Poppy, needed with Sion, but not everyone has been lucky as Heimerdinger's been (on both occasions) with reworks. > > In the words of the Super Top, Riot Ponytail: Graves is just a completely different character to what he was before so I wouldn't say he's pretty similar. I don't even mind his kit I'm just saying Riot should find a way to bring him back to the bot lane. I don't really sympathise on this issue because if I was a nidalee one trick, I can still play Nid mid or top, if I liked Trist before I can still play Trist as an ADC etc you get my point, the closest thing it comes to is the comoplete reworks like Yorick and GP and Poppy, they're just gone and I feel for them because I was an old Yorick main and I miss him but I understand why he was reworked. But even so, bringing up the fact that other champions have been reworked and it sucks for those players too is a nonsequiter because we're not talking about those champions, we're talking about Graves. Yeah but isn't Jax top really good right now? also the champion pool for ADC's is so much smaller so it sucks when one of them, especially if you really enjoyed them isn't really playable anymore and while ADC's aren't drastically different from each other, the small differences when you're an ADC main really matters and you really enjoy them and when they're gone it just sours the whole role a lot.
: Graves was incredibly generic as a carry, and completely failed to deliver his "shotgun guy" fantasy. The rework was awesome thematically. He was really the "get close and personal ranged carry". But he ended up being played in the jungle, and they had to balance him in that role. Subsequent and necessary nerfs made him unviable in his now secondary role. You can't really have "shotgun fantasy" with shots that go through minions and are high range. And it wouldn't even be balanced having best of both worlds, with range AND close up damage.
> [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-06-02T21:39:22.605+0000) > > Graves was incredibly generic as a carry, and completely failed to deliver his "shotgun guy" fantasy. > > The rework was awesome thematically. He was really the "get close and personal ranged carry". But he ended up being played in the jungle, and they had to balance him in that role. Subsequent and necessary nerfs made him unviable in his now secondary role. > * You can't really have "shotgun fantasy" with shots that go through minions and are high range. And it wouldn't even be balanced having best of both worlds, with range AND close up damage. Here's what I said to somebody else about his gun still feeling like a shot gun. >Also, his gun would 100% still feel like a shotgun because A: you have 2 bullets B: he has to reload and C: His autos still do aoe cone damage that falls off after every enemy hit, just like how pellets do less damage the furthur they're shot. >Also, shot guns can shoot a lot furthur and a lot more accuratley that people think they can, because of video games people assume all shot guns have an effective range of like 3 or 4 feet or something and then you're accuracy goes to shit but just google target shooting with shot guns on youtube, they're more accurate than you think they are. >So really if you want to get into the nitty gritty of it, it would highly depend on the type of shot gun Graves has. But like I said I'm confident that it would still feel very shot gun like. Remember 500-525 isn't huge for a marksman. I mean, he wasnt generic to me, what constitutes as generic? because if Graves was then imo so is Jinx and Sivir and Vayne but I don't want them to be removed from the bottom lane. About balancing I think you can balance it, you'd have a hard damage fall off, maybe his autos don't do full damage unless super up close, I'm not the guy to figure that stuff out because it gets pretty complicated but and I could be wrong I do feel like it's balancable. Also another thing about this shotgun fantasy that you're bringing up, I do think my proposed changes still fullfills this role because how far do you want to take it? otherwise Twitch shouldn't be shooting **through** people with a crossbow.
: the reason was because all of the ADCs were pretty much interchangeable (with a few exceptions) so they changed him to be more unique. He ended up being a strong jungler so they let him be a strong jungler.
> [{quoted}](name=Marshbouy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-06-02T20:53:13.794+0000) > > the reason was because all of the ADCs were pretty much interchangeable (with a few exceptions) so they changed him to be more unique. He ended up being a strong jungler so they let him be a strong jungler. It's just really a shame they did that to him.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:51:39.410+0000) > > -Nid is still a jungler and honetsly feels very similar to old Nidalee. Nid as a jungler was a weird off-role thing that some people did originally. > -Skarner is still a jungler and to me he just feels like a better version of his original self nothing extremely drastic. Is basically a dead champion w/ no ability to lane anymore. > -Xin is still a jungler and again just feels to me, like an upgraded version of the original. Used to also lane too. > -Poppy, still a top laner. She was a grumpy assassin w/ a fighter off-build, she's now an extremely lovable and adorable tank. > -Sion still a top laner. Sion had two weird disparate builds, AA heavy fighter w/ huge sustain or a cheese burster. Personality was also very action B movie corny. Now is a serious tank. > -Taric still a support. Used to be able to burst at the cost of his defensive capabilities with a good cheese laning build. Dazzle stun also had an interesting damage versus stun length trade-off with its range. > -Trist still an ADC and pretty similar honestly to old Trist at least mechanically Mid AP build no longer viable. > -Urgot still a top laner Plays completely differently, locked autos and an execute ult versus role reversal and landing a poison tracer to create a lock for your Q missiles, from medium-long range to a much shorter faux-melee playstyle. Not much of an anti-carry caster, more of an off-tank. > -Zac is still a jungler. He's a tank w/ low damage versus the popular AP assassin he used to be. Also used to occasionally be played as a laner around 20% of the time iirc >-I don't know enough about Karma but as far as I know nothing TOO drastic, not on GP levels, also she's as far as I know still played in the roles she was before. Removed shield bomb, removed AoE conal healing nuke, tether acts completely different, no more getting stronger as your health falls, her iconic fans were relegated to her traditional skin's emote. I think her lane playrates were heavily moved around w/ the rework, but it has been so long that it is hard to recall. Really do enjoy Qarma, but she's a completely different champion.
> [{quoted}](name=Glaricion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T20:10:55.636+0000) > > Nid as a jungler was a weird off-role thing that some people did originally. > > Is basically a dead champion w/ no ability to lane anymore. > > Used to also lane too. > > She was a grumpy assassin w/ a fighter off-build, she's now an extremely lovable and adorable tank. > > Sion had two weird disparate builds, AA heavy fighter w/ huge sustain or a cheese burster. > Personality was also very action B movie corny. > Now is a serious tank. > > Used to be able to burst at the cost of his defensive capabilities with a good cheese laning build. > Dazzle stun also had an interesting damage versus stun length trade-off with its range. > > Mid AP build no longer viable. > > Plays completely differently, locked autos and an execute ult versus role reversal and landing a poison tracer to create a lock for your Q missiles, from medium-long range to a much shorter faux-melee playstyle. > Not much of an anti-carry caster, more of an off-tank. > > He's a tank w/ low damage versus the popular AP assassin he used to be. > > Also used to occasionally be played as a laner around 20% of the time iirc > > Removed shield bomb, removed AoE conal healing nuke, tether acts completely different, no more getting stronger as your health falls, her iconic fans were relegated to her traditional skin's emote. I think her lane playrates were heavily moved around w/ the rework, but it has been so long that it is hard to recall. > > Really do enjoy Qarma, but she's a completely different champion. I mean none of these are really comparible, most of them besides the COMPLETE reworks like Poppy are very recognizable to thier previous selves either mechanically or you can still play them in the lane you played them before. Graves is literally DELETED from bottom lane.
: >With every rework Riot **tries to keep the feel** of the champion **and** hopefully tro to allow the champion to be **played within the same lane** : X {{champion:76}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:3}}
> [{quoted}](name=Glaricion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:44:32.442+0000) > > : X > > {{champion:76}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:154}} -Nid is still a jungler and honetsly feels very similar to old Nidalee. -Skarner is still a jungler and to me he just feels like a better version of his original self nothing extremely drastic. -Xin is still a jungler and again just feels to me, like an upgraded version of the original. -Aatrox is still a top laner, his change is the most drastic so far but he feels very good to play. -Corki isnt ADC anymore but his actual abilities are extremely similar in how they behave mechanically. -GP is still a top laner and he's got recognizable abilities, he's very different though that's true. -I don't know enough about Karma but as far as I know nothing TOO drastic, not on GP levels, also she's as far as I know still played in the roles she was before. -Poppy, still a top laner. -Sion still a top laner. -Taric still a support. -Trist still an ADC and pretty similar honestly to old Trist at least mechanically -Urgot still a top laner -Zac is still a jungler. See what I'm getting at here? a lot of these reworks either kept a similar mechanical feeling to the champion while introducing new abilities OR they at least didn't make the champion convert to an entirely different lane like Graves was. I'm not even against Grave's new kit, I actually like it, like I said in my post all I'd want is his range increased to 500 or 525, shoot through minions (deals less damage after firt target hit) and no knockback (otherwise his jungling is obviously ridiculous with the increased range). I actually like his new kit and I think if they made these changes they would've accomplished what I THINK they wanted to originally and make him a more diverse, unique ADC instead of literally making him UNPLAYABLE in the bot lane and all of a sudden he's a JUNGLER.
Dynikus (NA)
: > if you increase his range to something like 500 or 525 and allow him to shoot through minions Those would be fairly substantial buffs to a champion that definitely doesn't need them. I'm also not really sure how making him more similar to every other botlane adc would make him more unique than he currently is.
> [{quoted}](name=Dynikus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:26:45.586+0000) > > Those would be fairly substantial buffs to a champion that definitely doesn't need them. > I'm also not really sure how making him more similar to every other botlane adc would make him more unique than he currently is. Let me clarify, I would give him those range buffs but I would take away the knockback so his jungling isn't insane and also what are you talking about? he's be incredibly unique. He'd be the ONLY ADC that has autos that do aoe cone damage, one of only 2 ADC's with a reload mechanic, he'd have a pretty low range of 500 or 525 which would make his playstyle very different to any other ADC, his autos not only go through minions but they deal less damage to evrything after the firt target which would give him a unique laning phase, I mean seriousy.
: Reworks aren't supposed to preserve how the old champion played. They're supposed to get rid of the old champion and bring in a new kit.
> [{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:14:55.078+0000) > > Reworks aren't supposed to preserve how the old champion played. They're supposed to get rid of the old champion and bring in a new kit. I'm not sure what you mean by "played" I said the same feel and hopefully the same role. Kayle still feels like Kayle just updated and even if she doesn't she's still a top/mid laner. GP retained some of his skills and he's still a top/mid laner, Ryze with all the reworks he recieved is still a top/mid laner. My point is, Graves was COMPLETELY removed from the bot lane and the frustrating thing is if you just increased his range to 500 or 525 and allowed him to shoot through minions with diminishing damage after the first target hit, he'd be a REALLY cool UNIQUE ADC, but they don't want to do it, and that shits me the most.
l MrD l (NA)
: he was made for bot still but jungling proved to be stronger .. increasing the range of his autoes would remove what he is ... he wants to get into your face and be rewarded with more damage by getting close and by making his autoes go through minions that removes the shot gun feel riot are quite big on themes and they try to preserve it as hard as they can
> [{quoted}](name=l MrD l,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-02T18:43:44.049+0000) > > he was made for bot still but jungling proved to be stronger .. increasing the range of his autoes would remove what he is ... he wants to get into your face and be rewarded with more damage by getting close and by making his autoes go through minions that removes the shot gun feel > > riot are quite big on themes and they try to preserve it as hard as they can 500 and 525 is pretty low range for ADC's which is the range I suggested so he'd still have to get pretty close as far as ADC's go and remember I'm trying to get him back into the bot lane where he was supposed to be and those ranges are pretty small. You could reduce his tankiness because of the gained range I don't care but for an ADC that's pretty close. Also, his gun would 100% still feel like a shotgun because A: you have 2 bullets B: he has to reload and C: His autos still do aoe cone damage that falls off after every enemy hit, just like how pellets do less damage the furthur they're shot. Also, shot guns can shoot a lot furthur and a lot more accuratley that people think they can, because of video games people assume all shot guns have an effective range of like 3 or 4 feet or something and then you're accuracy goes to shit but just google target shooting with shot guns on youtube, they're more accurate than you think they are. So really if you want to get into the nitty gritty of it, it would highly depend on the type of shot gun Graves has. But like I said I'm confident that it would still feel very shot gun like.
: He was a stronger jungler than they expected and made the mistake of thinking they could balance him for both roles rather than axing his jungle right away. By the time they realized there was no way to keep him balanced for both he had already been skewed so heavily towards the jungle it was too late to go back.
> [{quoted}](name=Quality Content,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-02T18:11:17.634+0000) > > He was a stronger jungler than they expected and made the mistake of thinking they could balance him for both roles rather than axing his jungle right away. By the time they realized there was no way to keep him balanced for both he had already been skewed so heavily towards the jungle it was too late to go back. I just don't understand why they didn't make the changes I suggested in my post or something like that because I don't think it was too late in fact I still think it isn't too late.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 24
Hey Medller, are there any plans to make Graves viable in the bot lane again via some sort of mini rework? or possibly even reverting the rework altogether?
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:20:30.269+0000) > > While I agree Twitch chat is horrible I don't think we should default to > > "nobody reads it anyway" > > I'm not saying it's the focus of every single person watching I'm 100% sure it's a minority that reads chat and even engages with it but it's still problamatic. > > What if Raz knows that every time he's on stream Twitch chat is just spamming TriHard or CmonBruh? Again we'd have to ask him directly how he felt about it but what if he didn't like it? and even if Raz couldn't care less, what if a black person from the community doesn't like it? > > I just think Riot could do better with the chat. I understand the problem with it, but responding to it in any way is what they're trying to do. They want to provoke a response. Ignoring it honestly is the best way to deal with the situation.
> [{quoted}](name=OurLestrade,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2018-10-01T16:15:19.977+0000) > > I understand the problem with it, but responding to it in any way is what they're trying to do. They want to provoke a response. Ignoring it honestly is the best way to deal with the situation. I just feel like if it were banned than they woul lose thier ammunition if you will, disarmament is the decision here I think and it also doesn't solve anything if you ignore it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:54:16.143+0000) > > Just because you don't have an issue with it doesn't nobody else will so while it's nice you're fine with people spamming TriHard Chicken and cmonBruh everytime Raz is on stream you shouldn't apply the way you feel to everybody else. I'm not? Im not saying that everybody else will feel the same way I do,im saying that if they feel offended,that that's their own problem for getting offended by an emote most people use jokingly. There are just some things you shouldn't get offended by imo. > I pointed out that no rational person has an issue with the Twitch emote in of itself but you're taking away all the context, spamming cmonBruh incessintly when Raz is on stream can make people feel excluded and opens the floodgates to edgier jokes which I've already demonstrated. How does it make people feel excluded?that makes no sense. > I'm not alone in this either in another comment I pointed out Blizzard banning it in thier OWL stream and Asmongold a very popular World of Warcraft streamer banning cmonBruh because of the context it was being used in. And my opinion is that it shouldn't be banned. > Again while it's nice *you* don't have an issue with it doesn't mean there isn't an issue to be dealt with. Imo,there is no issue to be dealt with. Twitch emotes are nothing to be taken seriously. > In fact if you have no issue at all with it, whether it becomes banned or not shouldn't phase you so, why are you seemingly against it being banned? Because i akcnlowdege other people like using the emote,and I don't like stopping people from doing things just because somone personally might dislike it.
> [{quoted}](name=R107 Games,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T16:06:34.588+0000) > > I'm not? Im not saying that everybody else will feel the same way I do,im saying that if they feel offended,that that's their own problem for getting offended by an emote most people use jokingly. There are just some things you shouldn't get offended by imo. > > How does it make people feel excluded?that makes no sense. > > And my opinion is that it shouldn't be banned. > > Imo,there is no issue to be dealt with. Twitch emotes are nothing to be taken seriously. > > Because i akcnlowdege other people like using the emote,and I don't like stopping people from doing things just because somone personally might dislike it. Seems like you're actually looking for some discussion which is nice. >I'm not? The crux of your argument in your first comment was "Man,who cares? Its just a twitch emote" and "Even im black and i think its funny. Just move on with your life." First of all this ignores all the context that was brought up in the post as to why TriHard has become a problem in the LoL Twitch chat, secondly by "you shouldn't apply the way you feel to everybody else" I meant that just because *you* as a black person don't have an issue with it doesn't mean nobody else *should* your argument isn't valid because not everybody feels the same way you do so it's not logical to basically say. "Well, I'm ok with it so why aren't you?" People are more complex than this, you've acknowledged this in your reply "Im not saying that everybody else will feel the same way I do" I'm just trying to clear up why I said "you shouldn't apply the way you feel to everybody else" >that that's their own problem for getting offended by an emote most people use jokingly So basically it's your fault that you're offended. Hm, Twitch chat spamming TriHard Chicken which is a play on a racist stereotype is the persons fault for being offended. While they may be making edgy jokes I think it's a better place for everybody if racist edgy jokes weren't spammed constantly. Another thing to consider is that this type of spam can make actual racists feel like they're accepted. Don't confuse my words, I'm not saying if you spam TriHard Chicken or TriHard when Raz is on screen that you're racist, I'm saying that type of behaviour can open the door for actual racists to come into the communtiy and take part in it. All in all I think the community would be healthier without the TriHard spam. >How does it make people feel excluded?that makes no sense. Again, I'm going to ask you to think about a black person who feels differently to you, it's entirely possible that when a black person sees Twitch chat spam TriHard only when Raz, a black person is on stream that the person watching feels like they're over the meme and starting to get sick of it. When they see this every.single.time. it's entirely possible that not only can they be sick of the meme and over it but possibly even become annoyed from it and therefore feel excluded from the community that chooses to spam TriHard when Raz is on stream. >And my opinion is that it shouldn't be banned. I've stated real examples of when actual Twitch streamers have decided to ban the emote because of the culture it creates on thier streams and the type of behaviour it attracts, as well as recorded racism happening in LoL's Twitch stream as to why I think TriHard should be banned and your only real argument against all of this is basically "People shouldn't get offended" I mean if that's all you're bringing to the table man, you're not doing a great job of trying to make me see why banning TriHard in the LoL Twitch stream isn't a good idea. It's fine to have your personal opinion and you may love the memes but like I said I feel like I've backed up my position pretty well beyond just personal opinion. >Imo,there is no issue to be dealt with. Twitch emotes are nothing to be taken seriously. On thier own yes, but again we need to look at the context of why and how the emotes were being used. >Because i akcnlowdege other people like using the emote,and I don't like stopping people from doing things just because somone personally might dislike it. While people may enjoy using the emote I think once in cultivates an unhealthy culture and opens the door to actual racist jokes in chat I don't think peoples enjoyment should overule the ban.
damabevi (EUW)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=damabevi,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T16:09:34.746+0000) > > ok then ban KKona too if we're gonna ban emotes that are used to make fun of people of certain races. but oh, sjws only think whites can be racist and being racist against them isn't possible. I'm talking specifically about the LoL Worlds day 1 broadcast where the chat was filled to the brim with TriHard only when Raz was on stream. You know what I didn't see when white people were on stream? KKona spam. So unless you can provide me with when Twitch chat was being racist to white people on the LoL Worlds 2018 day 1 broadcast, because I certaintly didn't see it. I'd prefer it if you didn't make false equivalences.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:55:08.952+0000) > > I mean, I could engage with you but I know it'll be a waste of my energy, have a good day though lul. You already wasted your energy by making this post. I mean, it might be 2k18 and people already get offended by every bullshit but a twitch emote? Try again in 2 years.
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:57:32.200+0000) > > You already wasted your energy by making this post. > > I mean, it might be 2k18 and people already get offended by every bullshit but a twitch emote? > Try again in 2 years. Yeah pretty much what I expected, I was correct that you're a waste of energy.
damabevi (EUW)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=damabevi,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:59:04.256+0000) > > SJW normies can't get in on the memes so they want them banned OMEGALUL > > sjw life must suck tbh, 24/7 triggered at everything on the internet smh Ahh being against racism means you're an SJW there we go. inb4 it's not racist.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:41:19.385+0000) > > Seems like you're part of the problem then. what problem? the problem that was made up by some random player? Emote spam in twitch chat is a problem? lul
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:52:50.338+0000) > > what problem? > the problem that was made up by some random player? > Emote spam in twitch chat is a problem? lul I mean, I could engage with you but I know it'll be a waste of my energy, have a good day though lul.
: Man,who cares? Its just a twitch emote,don't let it bother you. If someone is offended by it then its their problem,its litteraly just a *twitch emote*. Even im black and i think its funny. Just move on with your life.
> [{quoted}](name=R107 Games,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:48:09.688+0000) > > Man,who cares? Its just a twitch emote,don't let it bother you. If someone is offended by it then its their problem,its litteraly just a *twitch emote*. Even im black and i think its funny. Just move on with your life. Just because you don't have an issue with it doesn't nobody else will so while it's nice you're fine with people spamming TriHard Chicken and cmonBruh everytime Raz is on stream you shouldn't apply the way you feel to everybody else. I pointed out that no rational person has an issue with the Twitch emote in of itself but you're taking away all the context, spamming cmonBruh incessintly when Raz is on stream can make people feel excluded and opens the floodgates to edgier jokes which I've already demonstrated. I'm not alone in this either in another comment I pointed out Blizzard banning it in thier OWL stream and Asmongold a very popular World of Warcraft streamer banning cmonBruh because of the context it was being used in. Again while it's nice *you* don't have an issue with it doesn't mean there isn't an issue to be dealt with. In fact if you have no issue at all with it, whether it becomes banned or not shouldn't phase you so, why are you seemingly against it being banned?
: nah let twitch chat be cancer that's why i love it
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:40:29.732+0000) > > nah let twitch chat be cancer > > that's why i love it Seems like you're part of the problem then.
SS Pappino (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:17:32.610+0000) > > Yikes don't tell me I've encountered an edge lord already, care to expand? :D
> [{quoted}](name=SS Pappino,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:22:44.181+0000) > > :D Can't say I'm surprised.
Drugoth (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:20:30.269+0000) > > While I agree Twitch chat is horrible I don't think we should default to > > "nobody reads it anyway" > > I'm not saying it's the focus of every single person watching I'm 100% sure it's a minority that reads chat and even engages with it but it's still problamatic. > > What if Raz knows that every time he's on stream Twitch chat is just spamming TriHard or CmonBruh? Again we'd have to ask him directly how he felt about it but what if he didn't like it? and even if Raz couldn't care less, what if a black person from the community doesn't like it? > > I just think Riot could do better with the chat. Trihex is a popular speedrunner, famous for games like Yoshi's story. If anything I would take it as a compliment that they're spamming his face.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yung Sheets,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:23:11.562+0000) > > Trihex is a popular speedrunner, famous for games like Yoshi's story. If anything I would take it as a compliment that they're spamming his face. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, I'm aware of Trihex's stream and am a fan and am also aware he as I doesn't inherently have an issue with the emote however like I said in the context of how Twitch chat was using it, it's quite problamatic I can back this up by Blizzard banning the same emote in thier OWL stream for similar reasons. Asmongold a popular WOW streamer has banned the cmonBruh emote from his stream because of the context of how it was being used, no rational person has an inherent issue with these emotes but when they're only used incessantly when a black person appears on stream it's clear that people aren't using it to honour Trihex for example, it also tends to open the floodgates to other questionable behaviour like I pointed out in my post of where Twitch chat was spamming 'Chicken' alongside TriHard.
: Stream chats tend to be lowlife anywho, no one pays attention to it
> [{quoted}](name=OurLestrade,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:13:52.110+0000) > > Stream chats tend to be lowlife anywho, no one pays attention to it While I agree Twitch chat is horrible I don't think we should default to "nobody reads it anyway" I'm not saying it's the focus of every single person watching I'm 100% sure it's a minority that reads chat and even engages with it but it's still problamatic. What if Raz knows that every time he's on stream Twitch chat is just spamming TriHard or CmonBruh? Again we'd have to ask him directly how he felt about it but what if he didn't like it? and even if Raz couldn't care less, what if a black person from the community doesn't like it? I just think Riot could do better with the chat.
SS Pappino (EUNE)
: X fucking D
> [{quoted}](name=SS Pappino,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:15:53.840+0000) > > X fucking D Yikes don't tell me I've encountered an edge lord already, care to expand?
Rioter Comments
: Here's what I want to know. Is your dispute on a global scale or is it just local because it's what you personally watch? Apologies for being conescending but the discussion calls for it. There's like no factoring of any other region - especially the LPL - so why should the LCS, specifically NA, _need_ to act like a sports league? That's what I don't understand with a majority of these posts.
Blyted (NA)
: NFL players don't really have an off season. For the top players the commitment to nutrition, work outs, and practice is pretty much non-stop. Also all the car collision level impacts probably take more of a toll than wrist and finger fatigue.
> Also all the car collision level impacts probably take more of a toll than wrist and finger fatigue. I'm not comparing the physical condition clearly but I do think LCS pros need a much larger off time. The psychological and emotional stress is very, very high. It's what causes burn out and burn out as I pointed out in my post. Shortens careers and reduces the amount of players we could see in the LCS due to people not being able to handle the extreme regimine as well as teams not being able to preform to thier highest potential. You could say something along the lines of "Well, that's how it should be" or "If they can't handle it don't become a pro". But when the stress of this lifestyle gets difficult for the worlds best to handle, you have to ask the question is there a better way? and yes, yes there is. The OWL gives thier players a sizeable off season to decompress and allows everything I've talked about to happen. >nutrition, work outs This is just par for the course, just like a pro playing solo queue in thier off time, and in fact unlike in the LCS, it matters more in traditional sports because they *have* to be in peak physical condition. So it's not fair to say because they have to maintain thier health they don't have an off season. They definitely do.
: Sure. But why? Pro players can accrue up to like 5 months of collective off time on the year which includes missing playoffs, Worlds, the preseason and even All Stars. But that clearly wasn't taken into equation was it?
Don't have to be condescending in your response. I assume you mean if they're not succesful the off time would be accumiliative to 5 months. That "off time" of 5 months is during the season, regardelss of whether they win, they're still in season which means they're still practicing and planning. It's not really off time. Also accuimilative time is very different from a set number of months, it feels different and behaves differently. >Sure. But why? Because of all the bullet points I mentioned. On top of this as a competitor it's not acceptable that the only way you're able to get a decent amount of off time is essentially if you're bad. And if you're bad you won't be in the sport for very long, which means getting that accumilative "off time" is directly damaging your career where a real off season in no way wouldn't.
Rioter Comments
: Don't worry, post-game chat is also logged and can result in a punishment. Therefore a simple report is enough :)
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Fizz Change v2 Heading to PBE
Wow these changes look absolutely amazing guys! really looking forward to trying them out on PBE thanks so much.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=LPPTzfgo,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-06-26T19:40:15.241+0000) > > The CD of his E is actually pretty high despite how it may feel. > > 16 / 14.5 / 13 / 11.5 / 10 > > I think it's a core piece of Fizz's kit and I would never want it changed. So you think it's core and iconic that he gets mobility, burst and defense on something as low as a 6 second cooldown. That's part of the problem when it comes to only mains discussing something. They have a tendency to be biased and ignore issues with the skills that have more toxic design. It also means that such thought process puts most of the power budget into a single skill, and forces everything else to be weaker. If you want Fizz to be less of an Ultimate Bot, you'll need to cut power from his R and E. Why do you think it's fair that he gets everything (offense, defense, utility) on a single skill? Why should he be allowed to straight up negate a ton of damage while escaping every 6 seconds? The point I'm making is that overloaded skills tend to break kits and be anti-fun for everyone except the user. His Trickster is one such skill and there's often very little an opponent can do about it. Feeling outplayed means you didn't feel like you couldn't do anything. And more often than not, you tend to be helpless rather than outplayed when it comes to Trickster.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=LPPTzfgo,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-26T19:49:10.146+0000) > > So you think it's core and iconic that he gets mobility, burst and defense on something as low as a 6 second cooldown. > > That's part of the problem when it comes to only mains discussing something. They have a tendency to be biased and ignore issues with the skills that have more toxic design. > > It also means that such thought process puts most of the power budget into a single skill, and forces everything else to be weaker. If you want Fizz to be less of an Ultimate Bot, you'll need to cut power from his R and E. Why do you think it's fair that he gets everything (offense, defense, utility) on a single skill? Why should he be allowed to straight up negate a ton of damage while escaping every 6 seconds? > > The point I'm making is that overloaded skills tend to break kits and be anti-fun for everyone except the user. His Trickster is one such skill and there's often very little an opponent can do about it. Feeling outplayed means you didn't feel like you couldn't do anything. And more often than not, you tend to be helpless rather than outplayed when it comes to Trickster. You're thinking of his ability in a vaccum where any ability could sound ridiculous, it really isn't an overly powerful ability. >If you want Fizz to be less of an Ultimate Bot, you'll need to cut power from his R and E Again, he's E isn't that big of an issue Riot didn't even touch it in the rework so I don't think it's worth talking about, as for the thought process of his E needing to be nerfed for him to be less of an ult bot, I'm not sure where you're making the connection. In his current itiration Fizz would be an ult bot with or without his E and if you want to talk about reworks to his R like the two I suggested where either guppy shark deals more damage or guppy is completely removed and the entire ultimate deals more damage I again don't see how his E factors into this in any way. Let's talk about both rework ideas and break them down. Rework idea 1. Guppy deals more damage while max range deals less. Keep in mind that in this theoretical itiration his W would remain the same as live. In this itiration, guppy deals more damage so Fizz players wouldn't feel as punished for landing a melee or mid ranged ultimate as they do now. This means as a Fizz player you're now not tied to the max range ultimate but of course since Fizz has become deadlier at a closer range now his maximum range ultimate damage should be reduced to compensate. Now if Fizz were in this state I don't see why Fizz E should be touched, the CD and mana cost are still high, he's just able to engage more pheasibly at different ranges now. Rework idea 2. W is reverted except it scales with AP instead of dealing % max health damage like the original did. This would return the old feeling of Fizz being able to do reliable dps in teamfights and again would release some pressure off of him from being an ult bot, the damage would remain the same on his ultimate and it would behave the same way, again I don't see why his E should be touched. I personally feel both should be implimented, the W scaling with AP and the guppy shark dealing more damage with the max range shark dealing less. This would answer the concerns that Fizz mains currently have and return him to having more options in teamfights. I just don't see how his E factors into any of this at all.
: My biggest issue with Fizz is that his trickster pops virtually everything. With its cooldown as low as it is, he feels much too slippery especially when it's tied to burst damage. I would feel better if it didn't pop projectiles and had a smaller window of untargetable state. Not even Blade Waltz was so thorough in breaking out of effects.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=LPPTzfgo,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-06-26T19:37:00.255+0000) > > My biggest issue with Fizz is that his trickster pops virtually everything. > > With its cooldown as low as it is, he feels much too slippery especially when it's tied to burst damage. I would feel better if it didn't pop projectiles and had a smaller window of untargetable state. Not even Blade Waltz was so thorough in breaking out of effects. The CD of his E is actually pretty high despite how it may feel. 16 / 14.5 / 13 / 11.5 / 10 I think it's a core piece of Fizz's kit and I would never want it changed.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=LPPTzfgo,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-06-26T19:08:38.407+0000) > > Thanks, I think it's important for Fizz mains to speak up on the forums because of the skewed perception he has by the general playerbase, I'm just hoping to show Riot that although we weren't happy with the W rework it doesn't mean we want no change at all. Ya that makes sense. I threw out a post about orianna just a little bit ago similar to that. Mine's less serious and some of the stuff i suggest would take too much work for Riot to take on with how buisy they are. But back to your point, I am curious about a few things since im not familiar with Fizz before or after the mini-rework. What are the differences (explained like I've got an understanding of the "Troll poll", his dash, and an empowered auto and nothing else. and the fish of course, cant forget that massive fish ult)
> [{quoted}](name=ZaneShadow,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=LPPTzfgo,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-26T19:13:27.726+0000) > > Ya that makes sense. I threw out a post about orianna just a little bit ago similar to that. Mine's less serious and some of the stuff i suggest would take too much work for Riot to take on with how buisy they are. But back to your point, I am curious about a few things since im not familiar with Fizz before or after the mini-rework. What are the differences (explained like I've got an understanding of the "Troll poll", his dash, and an empowered auto and nothing else. and the fish of course, cant forget that massive fish ult) Well, the gist of it comes down to he's become an ult bot, he no longer has reliable dps and because of these changes his gameplay has become linear. Old Fizz felt like a mixture of an assassin and a fighter, you could delete someone but you could also deal dps alot of Fizz mains really enjoyed this and opened up options, ie, you don't HAVE to delete someone to be affective, if you miss your ult you're still useful. Nowadays you basically need to land a max range ult on a squishy target during a teamfight to kill anybody and well that's kind of it, of course you can sill use your abilities but that's essentially your job. As for the W a lot of players don't like that you're delaying the damage on an assassin so much, it feels clunky to play, especially when we're living in a world where Leblanc and Rengar got reverted who are netorious for one shotting.
: I liked reading your thoughts. I hate that little blue devil, but I get where your comming from. Hope your changes work out!
> [{quoted}](name=ZaneShadow,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=LPPTzfgo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-26T19:05:20.835+0000) > > I liked reading your thoughts. I hate that little blue devil, but I get where your comming from. Hope your changes work out! Thanks, I think it's important for Fizz mains to speak up on the forums because of the skewed perception he has by the general playerbase, I'm just hoping to show Riot that although we weren't happy with the W rework it doesn't mean we want no change at all.
Rioter Comments
: Fizz Change Heading to PBE
Could you explain the logic behind removing the CD reset of his W after killing a minion? A lot of Fizz mains actually liked this change and it greatly helped getting through tough laning phases like Azir, Ryze, Malz, Brand etc. I just feel like his laning phase either playing agressively or defensively have been severely weakened by this change.
darkdill (NA)
: @Riot: Is "Star Guardian" a skin theme you want to make more of?
Star Guardian Gragas please !! :D or Garen <3

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