: Nidalee Players Want Riot To Step Up And Fix The Mess Riot Created.
I've advocated for Nidalee to be reworked even when she was strong in the jungle. It's just not fun, unless you're snowballing hard, but that's fun no matter who you're playing. Check out the changes I suggested in the way back with some fake patch notes, may not be perfect but definitely what I want Nidalee to head towards. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zopGzPGV-leaked-73-patch-notes
: Sounds a lot like Yasuo to me. Super overloaded kit. His only weakness is bad players trying to play him
People using the word overloaded without knowing what it means is fun. Overloaded means their kit provides too many things at once, Yasuo is definitely not overloaded. Also Yasuo has clear weaknesses the are easily abusable if the person playing against him isn't a "bad player". I'll copy paste what I said to the other person: His weakness is low range, no safe/good waveclear, reliance on minions to engage/disengage, low base stats. They aren't covered, he gets stomped by anyone who gets ahead or has a kit to abuse these facts. His counters completely nullify him. Annie, malzahar, Pantheon, a fiora that knows how to W, Riven, Fizz, Kayle, the list goes on. Being semi decent at any of those champs, especially Pantheon, means Yasuo doesn't get to exist for 20-30 minutes.
Kurbeh (EUW)
: **1.** Powerful reactive defenses _(Yes he got that with his W, and he also gets a shield for some reason)_ **2.** Very short windows of downtime, short cooldowns _(Q and E)_ and spells you can hold for reactive plays while still being highly effective _(W)_ **3.** Many abilities with low or no cast times _(Q and E screaming for attention, W is instant and blocks even if cast at last second)_ **4.** Very strong waveclear or wave control _(Q tornado, dashing around the minions)_ **5.** Fallbacks cover weaknesses too well - for example a “weak laning phase” champion that has tools to farm perfectly from afar _(Q tornado to farm, free passive shield, tons of dashes, windwall to block harass, melee champion that covers ranged weakness perfectly)_ **6.** Wall crossing abilities _(technically his ult and maybe in a few situations his E aswell)_ **?.** Very high dash speeds _(his R is instant, does that count?)_ **?.** No early game counter matchups _(No idea, which ones does he have? I just know that he totally shits on Lux and Ahri because of his W and E)_ If you wanna be really picky, you can get to 7 or 8 things, really.
I actually had to log in just to address how wrong this is. 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Q and E have slow cast times early game and speed up with items 4. He has God awful waveclear, he has to be melee range to even get stacks for tornado and a max rank tornado with early game items won't kill the wave. This is just a dumb point in general. 5. His weakness is low range, no safe/good waveclear, reliance on minions to engage/disengage, low base stats. They aren't covered, he gets stomped by anyone who gets ahead or has a kit to abuse these facts. 6. You can't count an ult that relies on a knockup as a wall crossing ability. Even counting an ult without that mechanic would be grasping at straws. His E only counts if you're in the jungle, mobs are alive and the Yasuo knows the exact angle. Stuffing it up will mean certain death for Him. 7. Again, an ultimate that relies on a knockup is not something to count for "fast dash speeds". If you were going to use an ultimate as an example you'd use Akali R. For non ultimate think fizz Q. 8. No early game counters? Really dude? He's bad enough early game but his counters completely nullify him. Annie, malzahar, Pantheon, a fiora that knows how to W, Riven, Fizz, Kayle, the list goes on. Being semi decent at any of those champs, especially Pantheon, means Yasuo doesn't get to exist for 20-30 minutes. 2 things he has 100%, and a third thing he has later in the game after a few items. This is what happens when you blindly try to make something fit what you want it to.
Reav3 (NA)
: The rework is going well, I will have more details on his design direction in the next Champion Roadmap which should be shortly after Swain. Current plan is to give him all new VO.
can you guys PLEASE make AP Aatrox viable again? All the non meta builds are being killed off one by when they're not broken, they just have a niche. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnrNBr4ScWU I used to main Aatrox in diamond, he's one of my mastery 7's and now I can't touch him.
Meddler (NA)
: We're still evaluating the impact of the hotfix. Looks like it's had around the desired power impact overall at least. That probably means more Aatrox buffs in 7.7. Not sure on details beyond that or specific problems we'd target yet sorry.
Can you guys revert his E so I can play him AP again? ]^: I don't see why Aaptrox needed to be killed in the first place.
: think you miswrote ranged damage carries near the end. i agree it wasnt hard to balance but anytime riot says something about not wanting to do something they make the excuse that its hard they are part of the reason i cant get my bronze-silver teammates to not surrender at 20 just because they didnt snowball early but its hard ill just try next game and idk what it is this happens to me 3-5 of my games.
AP Aatrox oneshots ranged carries, he has trouble against the overstrong tanks.
Meddler (NA)
: Well, looks like I'm bad at numbers as well as words early morning. I can't edit that thread title alas so I guess we'll be stuck with that today.
It's the 3rd of march in Australia. You're fine.
: league had options? several season ago but it was hard to balance so not anymore unless you are an adc
It wasn't hard to balance, they just never tried to. As soon as a champion was played AP when they weren't designed for that Riot would immediately completely neuter them. AP Alistar; base damages reduces significantly, AP ratios reduced significantly, ultimate % damage reduced significantly. AP Trynd: E made physical, Base damage reduced significantly, AP Ratio on Q Destroyed, cd on Q increased, crit chance up with fury not based on HP. AP Yi: AP Ratio removed on Q, AP ratio reduced on heal. I could go on. It's really not hard to balance if they just put a tiny bit of effort into it. Hell, AP Aatrox is already near balanced. They don't need to touch him at all, they just need to nerf tanks so they're not so dominant.
: I mean, AP Aatrox has a 1:1 AP scaling AOE nuke, with high base damage, on a really short CD. Also, at this point in time, Aatrox doesn't excel in the laning phase.
No, he has a 0.6:1 AP scaling, even then his E doesn't get reset by anything, it's a slow moving skillshot and he's lacking the 1.5-4.0 AP Ratio heals that AP Trynd and Yi safely had. That's why I said he's a tamer version. Aatrox only excels in the laning phase, his E poke allows him to trade and push without taking damage, which many top laners can't do. On top of that he has good all in, so he sets up with E and all in's when the fight will be in his favour. I've been able to outlane nearly every champion, as AP or AD.
5050BS (NA)
: Riot does not like hybrid champs other then the two they have (and only one is really liked, the other they crapped on too)
I build pure AP not Hybrid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnrNBr4ScWU
: While I enjoyed playing AP Aatrox, with one of my favorite builds being a hybrid mix of Gunblade, Rageblade, and Nashors, the changes are quite a buff for AD Aatrox. Now, your E works with DD, BC, and scales better with the potential BoRK changes. While keeping alternative playstyles a thing is nice for Riot to do, I don't want them to keep Aatrox weak, to allow for these playstyles. Think of old AP Tryndamere or Yi. The kits of those champions were pretty severely nerfed because of how unbalanced AP builds made the game. That's not what I want to happen with Aatrox.
AP YI and AP Trynd were builds I literally invented and pushed hard to people to try out before they were meta. They were broken beyond belief. Threads for reference: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=938025 http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1312457 AP Aatrox is in a state nothing like either of those two. They had completely broken numbers and built in healing in their kits which scaled ridiculously with AP, as well as a 1:1 AP scaling AoE nuke with high base damage and the ability to reset their nuke. Aaptrox is a tamer version of them, all of his AP ratios go to his burst, he has healing but it scales with AD and requires him to put himself in danger. On to the changes, his E isn't even the issue as AD Aatrox. It's the ability nearly every Aatrox player maxes first regardless of whether he's top, mid or jungle. By buffing it they're either going to do nothing, or make his laning phase far too strong. Where Aatrox already excels. He needs help in his teamfighting.
Rioter Comments
: Any number of routing or configuration changes by your ISP or the partners they work with in order to route your connection to our servers could have caused the latency change. In order to see what your network route looks like, we'll need to run a traceroute logs with [**WinMTR**](http://winmtr.net/). After loading up the application, simply plug **104.160.131.1** into the host field and start the trace. After 5 minutes has gone by, export the results as text and paste them in a reply. Let me know if you run into any issues with this.
Sorry for the format, I assume if you copy and paste it into a notepad it will go back to normal though. If I were to take an uneducated guess I'd say the issue would be with i-52.tlot-core02.bx.telstraglobal.net, which is part of Telstra's network (an Australian ISP). What are your more educated thoughts?
: Any number of routing or configuration changes by your ISP or the partners they work with in order to route your connection to our servers could have caused the latency change. In order to see what your network route looks like, we'll need to run a traceroute logs with [**WinMTR**](http://winmtr.net/). After loading up the application, simply plug **104.160.131.1** into the host field and start the trace. After 5 minutes has gone by, export the results as text and paste them in a reply. Let me know if you run into any issues with this.
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | WinMTR statistics | | Host - % | Sent | Recv | Best | Avrg | Wrst | Last | |------------------------------------------------|------|------|------|------|------|------| | 192.168.0.1 - 0 | 391 | 391 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 0 | | No response from host - 100 | 78 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CPE-58-160-248-1.wa.bigpond.net.au - 0 | 391 | 391 | 10 | 14 | 28 | 14 | |bundle-ether4.win-edge901.melbourne.telstra.net - 0 | 391 | 391 | 10 | 15 | 31 | 14 | |bundle-ether11.win-core10.melbourne.telstra.net - 0 | 391 | 391 | 11 | 16 | 32 | 17 | |bundle-ether12.ken-core10.sydney.telstra.net - 0 | 391 | 391 | 22 | 26 | 49 | 29 | |bundle-ether1.pad-gw11.sydney.telstra.net - 0 | 391 | 391 | 22 | 27 | 49 | 25 | |bundle-ether1.sydp-core04.sydney.reach.com - 0 | 391 | 391 | 22 | 27 | 48 | 25 | | i-52.tlot-core02.bx.telstraglobal.net - 0 | 391 | 391 | 199 | 203 | 217 | 199 | | i-0-5-0-3.eqla01.bi.telstraglobal.net - 0 | 391 | 391 | 168 | 173 | 191 | 174 | | zayo-peer.eqla01.pr.telstraglobal.net - 0 | 391 | 391 | 167 | 172 | 202 | 173 | | No response from host - 100 | 78 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | ae0.cr2.lax112.us.zip.zayo.com - 0 | 391 | 391 | 198 | 202 | 227 | 202 | | ae16.er2.lax112.us.zip.zayo.com - 0 | 391 | 391 | 200 | 207 | 270 | 206 | |64.125.170.174.IPYX-089814-750.zip.zayo.com - 0 | 391 | 391 | 226 | 230 | 268 | 251 | | 104.160.133.35 - 0 | 391 | 391 | 225 | 231 | 258 | 235 | | 104.160.159.100 - 0 | 391 | 391 | 251 | 255 | 274 | 252 | | ae34-br01.chi01.riotdirect.net - 0 | 391 | 391 | 252 | 256 | 273 | 254 | | 104.160.131.1 - 0 | 391 | 391 | 256 | 260 | 277 | 262 | |________________________________________________|______|______|______|______|______|______| WinMTR v0.92 GPL V2 by Appnor MSP - Fully Managed Hosting & Cloud Provider
: Due to your physical distance from the NA servers, there will be limitations to the latencies you can achieve. I know this because I play with a lot of my friends in Australia on the OCE servers and I get about 200ish in latency, regardless of what configurations I try from my end. The best thing you can do is ensure your local network settings are configured properly for League, according to our [**connection guide**](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752664-Troubleshooting-Connection-Issues). If you have any further questions, let me know.
I've been able to deal with 220 ping to a degree but 260 ping is making it really hard, and seeing has I had 220 ping just a few weeks ago there might be some way to get it back again. Is there any known reason why my ping would have spiked from 220~ to 255~ after the most recent patch?
Rioter Comments
  Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: We'll probably make it so the first mark spawns on a Scuttle crab consistently, rather than sometimes on Raptors, given how hard that camp is now for them to deal with. Was a problem case someone called out on Boards the other day that looks like an example of bad RNG (low room for adaptability, little cross team fairness, feeling of 'get screwed'. Beyond that not at present. Some interest in looking at their scaling/power curve once we've got the mid-season stuff figured out, nothing concrete nailed down though.
What about the Kindred changes I came up with for my fake patch notes? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zopGzPGV-leaked-73-patch-notes >' Kindred's jungle clear in her prime was too quick and safe, however the subsequent nerfs made her a low tier jungler for a long time. We want to reward Kindred players for using Wolf's Frenzy aggressively, whilst making its power in the jungle a little more visible. ' >W - Wolf's Frenzy REMOVED Against monsters slows attack speed by 50% for 2 seconds. NEW 100% of Damage against champions and monsters by wolf is stored up. Kindred is healed for 50% of stored damage when Wolf's Frenzy ends. (Max 80-360 based on level). Numbers could be messed with if need be, but I feel like the idea holds up.
Norak (OCE)
: Leaked 7.3 Patch Notes
Does commenting on these forums bring posts to the top like they used to?
Dengeden (EUW)
: I'd wanna see you forced to play Ryze whenever you play mid and I'd also lock you out of playing Ashe or Trundle. I'd also like to mention that there is no way for the current Rengar to "delete" you if he uses empowered W.
Rioter Comments
: solution: make new nid a laner.
: > [{quoted}](name=Norak,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=igNPiijW,comment-id=0003000b00020000,timestamp=2017-01-07T06:19:13.402+0000) > > Your post doesn't make sense; you agree that old Nidalee was viable in more roles, in more lanes and with more builds, yet you say she was very one dimensional. Those two are contradictory. If you were to say that she's one dimensional in her playstyle as an AP mid specifically, even that would be false. > > Current Nid can only throw a spear, if it hits she has to decide to go in, or not go in. Other than that going cougar is not worth it. Cougar was designed around Hunt and as such it is weak without Hunt's bonuses. Enemies know this, so Lane Nidalee cannot exist unless she's absolutely broken number wise. This is truly one dimensional. You have only one role she will work in (Jungle) and in that role she has one playstyle, one decision to make during the whole game; Spear->Cougar or Spear->No Cougar. > > Old Nidalee worked as a top AD/Bruiser split pusher, mid AP poke/siege teamfighter, and less so in the other roles as ADC, support and jungle but she could work. In her role as a top lane champion her build would be extremely flexible dependent on who her opponent was and how she had to patch her weaknesses against them. Nid Mid was only one dimensional in the sense of pre-6 she had to dodge skillshots and land her own, while providing lane pressure with traps and also providing a little bit of a safety net against junglers. She had very little options to win lane pre-6 but it was possible if she played well. After 6 she was a whole new ball game. Her cougar was very strong, but could be used to waveclear too. So she could either randomly cougar to trade an opponent who was too far forward, or she could try to use it to waveclear and roam, which is a bit risky against a few midlaners. > > I think Current Nidalee is boring not because of nerfs, but because she's just plain boring. I played Nid for years, and after the rework I played her on PBE and tried playing her on live after she came out. I never found her fun other than the fact that I was winning. post rework nidalee also worked a as AD/Bruiser She became alot more fun to play becuase you could actually go in and fight people before 6
Note what I said in my comment: >Cougar was designed around Hunt and as such it is weak without Hunt's bonuses. Enemies know this, so Lane Nidalee cannot exist unless she's absolutely broken number wise. Top Nid existed, and sure I agree was more fun because cougar existed pre-6. However it was broken because on release her numbers were stupid. As soon as they nerfed Nid's numbers to be in check she stopped being played top at all, which is why I assume they turned her into a jungler. They realised a binary champ like her should exist with the other binary champs that can't lane; amumu, fiddlesticks, etc. In the jungle.
: Pretty sure he's referring to the time Nidalee was a bruiser top. Nidalee has had many incarnations, not just two.
Venedictos (EUNE)
: Good-at-all-stages? That's just pretentious. She was good in mid game where the advantages she accumulated by clearing the jungle super fast and then pressuring the lanes and counterjungling really shined. But that's all there was to it. She never had a good late game, you can't compare her to any late game mages and heck, she itemises for full AP usually. Now she doesn't even have a strong mid game.
She was extremely strong early game, strong mid game and filled a very useful role in the lategame. That is "good-at-all-stages", not pretentious. Think of champions like Amumu. He's weak early, mid game where teamfights start he's a lot stronger, and lategame where teamfights define games he's extremely strong. This is like a reverse Nidalee, except lategame she's not really weak, she provides poke, vision control and heals for her team/adc along with a steroid, mobility and good objective control. [EDIT] Also you said she itemises full AP, that's usually only for arrogant solo Q players or low elo. She builds AP to start snowballing then she builds off tank with Spirit etc.
Venedictos (EUNE)
: You are making some fair points, but I feel like current Nidalee has way more things to be excited about, compared to old Nidalee. Old Nidalee was very one-dimensional and you can argue all you want that she was viable in multiple roles but the reasons she was might be irrelevant right now, or certain aspects that allowed her to work in the roles might be considered unhealthy. Revert her back to her old iteration? With a nerfed spear hitbox? Yeah, cool. I can feel even more pressured to land my spears now and my enemies can feel even worse that they got chunked for 80% of their health bar from 1400 units away. Will she be viable again? Possibly. Fun? Enjoyable? Healthy? Maybe not. I believe the reason you feel currently Nidalee is boring is because two years of nerfs have finally caught up with her now that she can't abuse the systems around her as hard as she did for those two seasons. If anything, I'd love it if spears were just a bit more rewarding to hit and hell, I REALLY wish her traps were meaningful again outside of proccing your passive. But these are all moving parts of her kit and now she's got way more levers to pull depending on what they'd like to push her into. Personally, I'd love to see her Cougar E apply a "bleed" of sorts. Makes sense thematically and will bring her teamfighting up a fair bit, while still requiring her to dive into the thick of the fight. But that's just my ideas and that won't help AD Nidalee at all. I also would love it if she could feel better about her itemisation, but that isn't a Nidalee-specific problem. She currently likes CDR very much, she needs health to get into melee and she still needs to itemise around Luden's if she wants to have any presence in the game. Almost feels like I need a 7th slot on every bruiser-ish mage, just because Void Staff is so mandatory, yet I still need Rabaddon's because the rest of the items hardly give any AP anymore. On the other hand, she's pretty diverse with her itemisation depending on how you wanna play, which is nice.
Your post doesn't make sense; you agree that old Nidalee was viable in more roles, in more lanes and with more builds, yet you say she was very one dimensional. Those two are contradictory. If you were to say that she's one dimensional in her playstyle as an AP mid specifically, even that would be false. Current Nid can only throw a spear, if it hits she has to decide to go in, or not go in. Other than that going cougar is not worth it. Cougar was designed around Hunt and as such it is weak without Hunt's bonuses. Enemies know this, so Lane Nidalee cannot exist unless she's absolutely broken number wise. This is truly one dimensional. You have only one role she will work in (Jungle) and in that role she has one playstyle, one decision to make during the whole game; Spear->Cougar or Spear->No Cougar. Old Nidalee worked as a top AD/Bruiser split pusher, mid AP poke/siege teamfighter, and less so in the other roles as ADC, support and jungle but she could work. In her role as a top lane champion her build would be extremely flexible dependent on who her opponent was and how she had to patch her weaknesses against them. Nid Mid was only one dimensional in the sense of pre-6 she had to dodge skillshots and land her own, while providing lane pressure with traps and also providing a little bit of a safety net against junglers. She had very little options to win lane pre-6 but it was possible if she played well. After 6 she was a whole new ball game. Her cougar was very strong, but could be used to waveclear too. So she could either randomly cougar to trade an opponent who was too far forward, or she could try to use it to waveclear and roam, which is a bit risky against a few midlaners. I think Current Nidalee is boring not because of nerfs, but because she's just plain boring. I played Nid for years, and after the rework I played her on PBE and tried playing her on live after she came out. I never found her fun other than the fact that I was winning.
: No to the first two, yes to where she actually has to take a risk if she wants to kill after a Q. I just don't want ICBMs back without her having to take a risk.
You're taking the best part of old Nid and the worst part of new nid and comparing them. If you want to compare them compare their bests with their bests and their worsts with their worsts. Best: Old Nid could 1/2-3/4 chunk you with a decent spear as a mid lane champ. That is the slowest skillshot in the game, single target, her only non melee damage source and it has to hit you at a far range. She was strong because of this in a siege position. If you let a Nidalee siege then you were not playing against her correctly, unless you have one of the champions with kits to counter siege (yasuo, braum, etc.). New Nid, when not completely terrible due to numbers, completely shits on enemy junglers with very little counter play. She will kill them multiple times in their own jungle and escape without his allies being able to clean her up due to her pounce over walls. She still sieges okay, so she transitions well into the mid-late game, she just has a lot less counters overall and is a much more boring champion. Worst: Old Nid had a very weak laning phase, was easily pushed into tower and outroamed pre-6. Her spears were her lane presence and she had no mobility to get away from ganks. Her mid-late game relied on her team grouping and sieging with her, but an enemy team with hard engage countered that. New champs/items will also make it even easier to deal with her specifically if need be. New Nid has to all in, but typically early game that doesn't matter as she is invading jungle. Lategame she will build tanky to be able to survive all ins and/or she will just siege with her team, just a weaker siege to her old self.
: I would still rather not _die_ because she hit one spear after fishing for one the entire mid/late game.
She only literally one-shot with spears when she was thousands of gold ahead and landed a max range, slowest skillshot in the game. It took 2-3 spears normally, and if you're running into 2-3 spears, without engaging as a team, then you're playing against Nid wrong. Would you rather play against the Current Nid who clears ridiculously well, kills your jungler 5 times and oneshots you with a Qcougar?
Bârd (NA)
: There was a time period between "Old Nid" and "Jungle Nid". Old Nid was cancer. Her spears would instantly kill any non tank, and had hitboxes about the size of Morgana Q. Her pounce was clunky as hell to boot. The "New Nid" was still a laner for a long time; it wasn't until Riot shoehorned her into the jungle that people started to play her there. Jungle Nid ended up being toxic as hell, and instead of just reverting the change that made her clear well, they ended up nerfing Nid so much that she became completely unplayable in lanes (eventually in the jungle, as well).
If you read the whole comment, I said keep the hitbox small on her spears, keep her fixed cougar W. She still has more counterplay in her pre-rework form than in her current good-at-all-stages, jungle domintant, binary Spear-Cougar-Combo form.
: Old Spears as in the nuclear warheads the width of a tree? If so, please god no.
New champions/items exist now that would make old Nid a lot less viable. If need be the spears could be nerfed a little, but that might not be necessary with champions like Kled/Braum/Yasuo now, and items like Edge of Night and Protobelt. Also I said in the post, keep the width as small as it is now. Not only is it harder to land then, but it makes for cool between minion spears at higher levels.
Meddler (NA)
: We'll be buffing Nid in 7.2. Not sure what changes yet, would be aiming for a fairly sizable power increase given her current state though.
Has Riot ever seriously considered reverting to old Nidalee? New Nidalee is not only harder to balance but she's so much less fun because she's binary. Laning will never be balanced on her because of her playstyle. She lands a spear and goes in, that's it. if she doesn't land a spear she doesn't go in because cougar is too weak without the perks of hunt. If she lands a spear, her enemies immediately know she's going to go in and can mentally prepare themselves for it, making it impossible to lane against certain champions. Old Nidalee worked in mid as AP, top as AD/tank and even in jungle back then, though it was rough. She could be played support or even adc, though she wasn't top tier in those roles, you could manage it. She was balanced around her playstyles; top AD was great at splitpushing and 1v1ing but provided a lot less to teamfights. Mid AP she was incredibly weak early and had a lot of trouble csing because she didn't have cougar level 1, she won lane by outplaying her opponent and consistently landing long range spears. If she didn't land spears she wouldn't be winning lane, if she did land spears she would be winning lane. Until 6, where she could have a lot more mind game pressure with cougar form. You could be csing and randomly cougar all in an opponent, if you did it right then you could actually out trade people. AP Nid was squishy and fell short against hard engage, or even just an assassin that can keep up with her/cc her. Please consider changing her back. New Nidalee is the epitome of boring. Spears don't feel rewarding, traps are a literally useless ability now. Cougar feels terrible unless you land a spear and even then they expect it so it's fairly common to be predicted and turned on because of how obvious your decision train is. Old spears, old traps without %mr/armor shred, old cougar, keep cougar W direction change with the rework, keep the smaller hitbox on spears to make it harder to land them / allow cooler spear plays between minions (which we don't get to see after rework anyway because she's a jungler). Doing that would make Nid a fun, flexible champion again, she'll have counterplay and be easier to balance as you don't have to account for best/worst case scenarios of hunt. You can just balance her as a champion as she is.
: Not sure you remember what the rework itself did. Cougar form wasn't very useful at all, and all Nidalee had to do to contribute to the game pre-rework was land one or two spears during a mid-lategame siege, either chunking squishies for most of their hp or just ending their life. She was broken in her own way back then: she didn't even have to engage to oneshot high-priority targets.
Cougar was stronger base damage and AP scaling wise on W and E at all ranks before, Q was weaker. Hunt wasn't a mechanic so W didn't have its hunt range and there was no way to reset cougar cooldown. Her spears did more damage, her traps were a flat damage that scaled with AP, so they weren't useless. She could not use cougar until level 6 though.
Meddler (NA)
: We'll be looking at possible Nid buffs, aimed at improving both jungle and lane Nid like the recent base AD change, early next year. Whether or not we do those, or what specifically they are, is going to depend on how Nid performs over the rest of 6.24 and 7.1.
Has Riot considered reverting Nid to pre-rework state like Kog? She felt like she had clear strengths and weaknesses, where as post-rework she's been constantly buffed/nerfed and, in reality, has not been healthy when she's viable. As someone who has played her for years, she was even more fun pre-rework. Her cougar felt more rewarding, spears felt much more rewarding, early game was a struggle but you could lane vs most champions if you played really well and dodged skillshots/landed spears. New Nid is boring/terrible in lane and binary/broken in jungle.
: All it takes is people to realize "If I stop ignoring my Kog'Maw... and start protecting him" and start forming team comps around Kog'Maw instead of him just being *there* for shit to get real. Yeah, I tried Juggermaw in PBE. It's insane when done right.
You're not playing Juggermaw right if you're playing it with new Kogmaw most likely. Old Juggermaw was Kog + Lulu + Ori or something similar, Kog frontlines and, with the movement speed buff from Lulu, gets free autos on enemy team by running up to them, then running away. Meanwhile Ori and Lulu are shielding Kog to stop any poke from getting through. This also lets him siege towers for free. Without being able to use the W + R + Trinity force and movement speed from lulu in between those to quickly reposition for more safety, you're an easy target for skillshots. Current Kog'maw seems best with On-hit AS items and as a stationary, over-the-wall artillery, not Juggermaw. Current Jinx is just a better version of Juggermaw than Kogmaw is.
Meddler (NA)
: Fiora's being actively worked on right now, both in terms of gameplay and art adjustments. She's not one of the next updates out (those'll be GP and MF), but will probably be one of the next updates after them. On the gameplay side the guiding pillar's remained 'Grand Duelist', with abilities focused on dueling enemies, with speed and timing emphasized. Single target damage and mobility are likely to remain her strengths. She'll probably end up with a bit of situational CC and a bit more disengage than at present, though in exchange have a somewhat less guaranteed combat pattern (e.g. we've been testing a Q dash that's free targeted, rather than certain to hit once cast). In terms of existing weaknesses we expect she'll continue to lack AOE power and will still be a non tanky melee damage dealer. More details/discussion to follow closer to her release of course.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzNct5tV,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-06-24T06:41:53.503+0000) > > Fiora's being actively worked on right now, both in terms of gameplay and art adjustments. She's not one of the next updates out (those'll be GP and MF), but will probably be one of the next updates after them. > > On the gameplay side the guiding pillar's remained 'Grand Duelist', with abilities focused on dueling enemies, with speed and timing emphasized. Single target damage and mobility are likely to remain her strengths. She'll probably end up with a bit of situational CC and a bit more disengage than at present, though in exchange have a somewhat less guaranteed combat pattern (e.g. we've been testing a Q dash that's free targeted, rather than certain to hit once cast). In terms of existing weaknesses we expect she'll continue to lack AOE power and will still be a non tanky melee damage dealer. More details/discussion to follow closer to her release of course. Would you guys take suggestions for her rework hit? I enjoy working with numbers and kits, been doing it League wise since 2009. I've started my idea for a Fiora rework, if you'd like to see it (I'd be more comfortable showing it to you guys when it's finished though). P.S. I have your email on hand already.
Meddler (NA)
: That's not Singed either, though fair question certainly.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=3ixt4amr,comment-id=000300040002,timestamp=2015-05-11T03:55:47.416+0000) > > That's not Singed either, though fair question certainly. What have you done to Vi man, jesus
: > Passive: ... It's important that only the first of each ability is amplified so that she doesn't have weird dps spikes with Cooldown Reduction, mainly. > Javelin Toss: ... Javelin Toss still does meaningful amounts of damage, as well as offering you an engage opportunity onto champions if the situation allows it. > Bushwhack: ... I'm currently playing with Bushwhack tuning so that they're better at fighting tankier dudes despite losing the resist shred. As for AOE farming in lane, she has Cougar form at level 1 now. This should help, despite it putting her at a bit more risk to jump into the minions. > Primal Surge: ... The current version of Primal Surge we are testing uses an increased base and a decreased ratio, not just a double nerf. This is subject to change, but the idea behind it is that it serves her better when behind, and not so crazy well when ahead. > Cougar: ... You don't start the game with 1 rank in Q, W, and E still, so you will have all three by level three at the soonest. Our testing hasn't shown that trapping up the lane is particularly dominant at level 1, but we'll continue to look into it. > 20MS loss in cougar ... Nidalee's brush passive grants her greatly increased Movement Speed toward visible champions in a 'large' radius. We have test a radius as 'large' as 5500 units (TF ult range), and she has been an incredible roamer in these cases. > Base damages and ratios adjusted in cougar ... Since she gets to use all her damage abilities more easily, her overall damage is probably a bit too high. For now, the version we're playing with has Takedown dealing significantly more damage on average, and Pounce and Swipe dealing a bit less. I really like the way you organized your thoughts here by the way. It made it very easy to respond to your questions. Thanks!
> Passive: ... Wait, did I misinterpret? The first of EACH ability, as in, you're hunting someone and you can use QWE in cougar form, all 3 will be enhanced but only once? That's much better than what I thought you guys meant. I take back what I said (because that's essentially what I wanted, I thought of it as more of a rengar-esque enhance). > Javelin Toss: ... Is it atleast scary pre-1000 range (early on especially)? At the moment I land spears quite a lot in laning phase, but they only begin to hurt around level 3-5 (rank 2-3 spear) and when I land them long range. The ability itself is hard to land (slowest projectile in game, hits minions, single target) and yet I find myself never pushing my enemy out of lane, no matter how many spears I land early. Especially if they have any sustain through abilities/runes/items. > Bushwhack: ... I didn't take into consideration the level 1 cougar. Farming will be a lot riskier but Nidalee with have waveclear early on. I can see this being a problem (as in possibly being too strong). > Primal Surge: ... I misread the changes, when I read adjusted I assumed both base and ratio were nerfed. We were on the exact same wavelength with this. Haha > Cougar: ... I assumed it would work like this, I just couldn't be sure. > 20MS loss in cougar ... I didn't know the range on this, I agree this seems like a fine change. > Base damages and ratios adjusted in cougar ... Will this be affecting her level 6 ability to W E caster minions with 50~ AP and kill them? Her waveclear is already dangerous enough as it is, having to auto attack each caster after burning your burst on them melee range feels really wrong. I think in general, most of my concerns are based on not knowing numbers, and misreading things slightly. I'd be eager to try the changes out first hand and tell you what I think, usually my in-game thoughts are close to my out of game assumptions. Are these changes on PBE? If so, can I have a PBE account? I had one before I moved to OCE, but I heard Riot did a purge of PBE accounts and now only invites players from NA. > I really like the way you organized your thoughts here by the way. It made it very easy to respond to your questions. Thanks! No problem! I have a lot of experience giving feedback, especially to Riot. Been here nearly 5 years! Thanks for answering all my questions/concerns.
: Upcoming Nidalee Gameplay Update
High Diamond 1 (chall level imo) Nidalee main here. My thoughts: **Passive**: It seems like a mouthful to be honest. Both Nidalee players and enemies will be overloaded with that much in a passive. I like the idea of hunting, but does it really have to only affect the first ability? If you're hunting them I would expect that it's a consistent thing, a hunt continues until the prey is hunted down. **Javelin Toss:** If you're going to reduce it's AP Ratio and damage, give some incentive, or nice mechanic to make up for it. Execute? It would match her cougar form Q, so it's intuitive. Remove the minimum range (based on her AA range) from her Q? At the moment medium range spears are extremly underwhelming. It doesn't punish nid for letting enemies get close range, it punishes her for landing an extremely slow skillshot at 700~ range. Otherwise you're nerfing her Q into oblivion with the damage and CD changes. **Bushwack:** The removal of MR/Armor shred and multiple target trapping is absolutely huge. Damage of the traps should be increased to compensate. At the moment Nidalee's laning stage is extremely hard with her Q damage nerfs (spears don't ramp up until after her AA range), her backup method for farming against good opponents is to trap minions, this is killed with the changes. The shred also hurts her ability to trade, her utility in general and her spears late game (a lot). **Primal Surge:** I feel like changing both the base AND the AP ratio is going to make this extremely underwhelming. What you should do instead is nerf the AP ratio slightly, leave the base (or buff) and make the cooldown higher at lower levels and scale down to it's current CD. At the moment bad Nidalee's are trading terribly and just healing up constantly, and lategame her heal is just really strong. Address these issues instead of just blanket nerfing the ability. **Cougar:** Level 1 cougar seems interesting to say the least. Assuming it works like current Nid where you can't use Q W or E until you've levelled them. This means W first Nid is probably going to be dominant (at the moment Q first nid is better for level 1 trading if you can land spears, E first is better against opponents who you can auto trade with). After these changes W will be dominant, just cougar form, pounce to lane, trap everything up and farm. Boring. Loss of 20 movement speed is really big, this hurts Nidalee's roaming substantially. Do you want her to just become a farm bot in lane? I thought teamwork was promoted. From the way you've worded her abilities, her W has a really long cooldown now and is reduced when you land E (cougar) to it's normal cooldown. So I imagine Nidalee's roaming is essentially dead at this point. Base damages and ratio's being "adjusted" scares me a little. You're shifting a lot of power into her cougar form, are you nerfing it substantially to make up for that fact? Does that seem logical? I like the W and E cougar form change, where they go towards your mouse cursor. Though it does take some skill ceiling from Nidalee away, Cougar form was the hardest part about Nidalee. But catering to the people who don't main her is probably a smart idea to make her easier to pick up. **TL;DR:** Nidalee Human Q needs to have more incentive/rewards for being hit most likely. Execute or removing the minimum distance are best contenders. Primal surge's early CD should be hurt instead of it's base heal amount. Cougar loses it's roaming strength, pushing nid into a sit-in-lane-and-farm champ, promotes selfish plays instead of teamwork.

Norak

Level 120 (OCE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion