Rioter Comments
Nhifu (NA)
: Aatrox is the new Yasuo
He's meta and now appeals to the mass audience... it's very unfortunate for players like me who liked Aatrox long before he was seen as being 'good' :( RIP OGTROX.
: Fear of Tank Metas vs What We Have Now
Depends on which tank meta, S4-S5 was pretty good as it had good diversity for every lane. The tanks at the start of S8 with their interaction with runes and what not? I'll pass. You don't understand how oppressive they were, it's not that bruisers were unviable because they had a slightly tougher time popping off, it was because tanks were literally choking the fuck out of them even in early trades as well as scaling the fuck out of them. You could not play a bruiser top lane in the early stages of S8, either you met an abusive ranged top laner or you met a tank that was both an unstoppable force as well as an immovable object. I don't mind tanks tanking but fuck me, they should not be doing a billion damage unless they sacrifice something in their kit and show some weakness. With the current state of the game, I wish we could just revert back to no keystones/reforged runes and tone damage down.
Jenivie (NA)
: Thats how youre gonna deal with Irelia?
Honestly, as 'unique' as having a massive AOE disarm that refreshes her main damaging ability is, I'm not sad it's gone. The rework was overly ambitious and quite frankly failed on delivering a core style of gameplay as well as made her a pain the arse to balance and play against. Her kit was overloaded and let's not pretend like it wasn't, otherwise why else would she be regarded as another yasuo, nerfed/changed multiple times in a row and still maintain such a ridiculous ban rate. She had the burst and mobility of an assassin, dps and tankiness of a bruiser/juggernaut whilst also having the utility of a tank. Hopefully they will be able to put her in a better place with the upcoming patches but to be honest, I'm not convinced this current Riot Games knows how to balance the game at all.
: aatrox
To beat Aatrox you need to bait out his Q and preferably his Auto Attack passive, after that you need to hard engage and reign hell on him. Darius is a very skill dependent match up but I find Darius players who go Phase Rush are incredibly difficult to deal with. As Darius you want to be abusing your slow/auto reset to threaten his life every time he does something stupid, your Q is probably your least reliable ability against Aatrox. A Darius that gets on top of Aatrox after he wastes an E + Q has basically guaranteed him some nefty gold to spend. Also once you get to mid-late and you have armour and he doesn't, watch as he can't do shit to you and you can run him down as you please. Also a Darius who goes swifties AS WELL as Phase, well, there's no way in hell Aatrox has any chance of escaping that. Jax is actually disgustingly strong right now and if Aatrox makes mistakes and wastes his Q, Jax can run him down into the ground and Aatrox won't be able to catch up because he can't afford to build resistances and fall behind. In essence, Aatrox is an oppressive champion but he's not without total weakness. He has no resistances and is very vulnerable to a hard engage after wasting his abilities (his cooldowns are SIGNIFICANTLY long so abuse his ass when he wastes stuff! also he only starts with 1 dash early, if that's gone and he's in a bad spot, you can mess him up real good). He can't trade back against divers with attack speed because his attack speed base isn't fast enough to do anything, for every 3 autos Irelia can do to him, he can only do 1 back at best and that's not a good spot to be in. Good luck amigo, spam norms or match ups against him to earn the experience of how to play against him and one day, he will be no more than a fart in the wind. Know yourself, know your champion and know his cooldowns, the rest is taking the initiative. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: Galio and Aatrox literally build full damage and takes 0 damage back
I barely even play the game anymore but what I do know is Aatrox and the current Aatrox is heavily team/momentum reliant. In a team that's doing well, he's nigh immortal and feels like what you're describing where he can do so much damage for free but that's because when his team is doing well, who the fuck is gonna focus him. The truth is he has 0 real resistances and he's much more on the fragile side of a juggernaut, being forced to build more like a bruiser/assassin hybrid than a true juggernaut. If you play another juggernaut against him and are at the same exp and gold as him from like lvl 11+, he literally can't do shit to you.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Zeta 1313,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ni02AA2s,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2018-12-29T22:16:37.131+0000) > > Aatrox's old kit was simple and unhealthy > > All he ever did was Q-E autospam > > The only skill expression in his kit was his W and Revive > > I personally like the new Aatrox, and i think that they kept the core mechanic, healing, alive Does no one remember when strategy used to be a skill? Anyone over 25 that is.
> [{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ni02AA2s,comment-id=001b0000,timestamp=2018-12-29T22:40:17.242+0000) > > Does no one remember when strategy used to be a skill? > > Anyone over 25 that is. The game has changed quite dramatically over the past few season and somewhere down the line I feel a lot of people have missed out on the concept of being good at strategy. Skill expression now seems to be completely tied with 'outplay' potential but how much of that is based on champions just having more things in their kits, especially get out of jail free cards (Fiora's Riposte, Irelia's Defiant Dance, Akali's Shroud, etc) than actually being better than your opponent? Maybe it's just my backwards way of thinking but I feel if someone took a champion as simple as Garen and got him to the top 10 challengers in the rankings, he'd be infinitely more impressive and 'skilled' than someone who's only good at abusing obnoxiously strong champions. Obviously not to downplay the skill of any player that's as good as that as they both are in top percentile and have gotten there with their own skill, I just feel playing a champion like Garen is simply playing the game on hell mode at that level.
: I loved Aatrox before and I had to learn him after. Initially I wasn't thrilled about the change but I like he has more personality that isn't atypical of a God of war. On the surface Aatrox seems hella angry but as you play him you here several lines where he takes about his desire to look normal again, his hate of all the bodies he's had to take over, his sassy levels, and his actual love of his brothers. I did like the silent strong aura of previous Aatrox but I like that he's more vocal about his torment. I've learned to take reworks in stride and try to focus on the positives of them.
> [{quoted}](name=OtakuBurrito,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ni02AA2s,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2018-12-29T01:16:54.922+0000) > > I loved Aatrox before and I had to learn him after. Initially I wasn't thrilled about the change but I like he has more personality that isn't atypical of a God of war. > > On the surface Aatrox seems hella angry but as you play him you here several lines where he takes about his desire to look normal again, his hate of all the bodies he's had to take over, his sassy levels, and his actual love of his brothers. > > I did like the silent strong aura of previous Aatrox but I like that he's more vocal about his torment. I've learned to take reworks in stride and try to focus on the positives of them. Oh, don't get me wrong I actually really like the current Aatrox, it just feels regrettable that I can't have the old one as well. They play so differently from each other and are pretty different in personality and drive that I wonder why they didn't just make the new Aatrox a different champion. It's just... there's no substitute for the champion that made me really fall in love with League in the first place.
: The sad thing is he was finally being played and was actually good when they finally reworked him. Truly tragic.
> [{quoted}](name=the shy top,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ni02AA2s,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2018-12-28T22:40:34.581+0000) > > The sad thing is he was finally being played and was actually good when they finally reworked him. Truly tragic. Indeed... it came at the worst time. Within the last 10 patches before his rework, he was actually doing really well and he had such a nice range of builds to compliment different styles of play. It was only the newly found titanic + rageblade + conq combo that truly pushed him a bit over the board. I wanted the rework to define his strengths and weaknesses better but this was not the way I intended to go down :'(
: Old Aatrox was so very different. I miss so many aspects of him. I was never an Aatrox main. I didn't play too much of him but I always had fun when I did. I felt a bit how you do when they removed the old Twisted Treeline over 6 years ago. I loved that game mode, and the replacement isn't anything close to the same even though I still enjoy it. It's sad losing these things. This is why I am not looking forward to another Mordekaiser rework.
Man Morderkaiser... he's in a bit of a pickle isn't he? I hear the Juggernaut rework they did to him was a big miss but who knows if the next rework will be even worse :x
Asamas (EUNE)
: Aatrox is actually still there. Actually he is the very first champion that you see bcs his name starts with two A(s). And it's funny how Aatrox got more popular for the first time since ever but his three old mains don't like him now when he is actually any good.
Hey man, that was my heartfelt post for a champion I truly cared about. I know you didn't read a damn thing I wrote but aren't you being a bit too rude with that reply?
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Slave Knight,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=KsQAdElL,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-12-16T06:13:36.919+0000) > > If you compare old Aatrox to Xin then new Aatrox is Riven 2.0, is that fair? You can't have it both ways, either they are both different or they are both the same. Xin is a close comparison to old Aatrox though. Old Aatrox was a sustained damage autoattacker that also healed and mostly statchecked his opponents to death. Xin Zhao is a sustained damage autoattacker that also heals and mostly statchecks his opponents to death. The main 'difference' is Xin Zhao has to somewhat aim his W, his gapcloser has shorter range and does not freely go over walls, and his R is significantly more powerful. Riven is not remotely close to new Aatrox outside of both having 3 part Q's. New Aatrox is a relatively immobile juggernaut with high damage sweetspots he has to line up and land. Even trying to compare him to Riven requires the player not have ever played a single game as, with, or against either champion.
> [{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=KsQAdElL,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-16T06:25:02.173+0000) > > Xin is a close comparison to old Aatrox though. Old Aatrox was a sustained damage autoattacker that also healed and mostly statchecked his opponents to death. Xin Zhao is a sustained damage autoattacker that also heals and mostly statchecks his opponents to death. The main 'difference' is Xin Zhao has to somewhat aim his W, his gapcloser has shorter range and does not freely go over walls, and his R is significantly more powerful. > > Riven is not remotely close to new Aatrox outside of both having 3 part Q's. New Aatrox is a relatively immobile juggernaut with high damage sweetspots he has to line up and land. Even trying to compare him to Riven requires the player not have ever played a single game as, with, or against either champion. While you're right that Xin is closer to old Aatrox than riven is to new Aatrox, my comment was more to suggest that on the surface level, they are very close depictions of each other. You already know new Aatrox is vastly different to riven in play and execution, but did you know old Aatrox had a distinct feel in how he played and handled too? I LOVED old Aatrox and when he was picked or banned away, I would sometimes pick Xin Zhao in his stead because, I know they have very similarly functioning kits. I can tell you from experiences, while they have similar kits, those small differences make a world of difference especially in the top lane where the mindset is to duel your opponent to death (at least for the players I come across).
: > [{quoted}](name=Slave Knight,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=KsQAdElL,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-12-16T06:13:36.919+0000) > > If you compare old Aatrox to Xin then new Aatrox is Riven 2.0, is that fair? You can't have it both ways, either they are both different or they are both the same. Well, the problem with that is it's simply not true. What you _could_ say is that new Aatrox is a juggernaut version of Riven. Where Riven's passive having no cooldown and her ability to animation cancel every ability allows her to burst, Aatrox's fixed casts and long cooldown on his passive prevent him from doing so. They're different subclass versions of almost the same kit. It's a great way of reusing ideas without making them feel recycled. Aatrox and Xin, on the other hand, were in the same subclass and functioned practically the same. I'll again paste the response I've written several times on other threads: Every single strength the old Aatrox had, Xin Zhao had but better. He was only any good when Conqueror was released because they removed the cost on his W's damage. They would've nerfed him soon anyway. But just to spell it out for you why Xin was better: * Xin Zhao also has a dash to close in on enemies, and a knockup. But his knockup is guaranteed, and it's not on the same ability as the dash. * His attack speed boost isn't tied to an ultimate cooldown. * He has/had both of Aatrox's W's effects without the cost. * He has a quicker cast ranged, slowing poke on his W than Aatrox's E, that also counts as a hit for his 3-hit passive. * And his ultimate makes it so rather than jump into enemies, die, and revive, he simply knocks away anyone who might kill him besides his target and becomes immune to their ranged attacks, making it so he doesn't need the revive in the first place. Aatrox was, in every sense kit-wise, a weaker Xin Zhao. ***** The fact Aatrox was top instead of jungle wasn't because he was better than Xin at top, it was because he was worse than every other AA fighter in the jungle, where that subclass is best. So he was instead forced to rely on his revive to cheese tower dives for a lead. Is it a shame the only time he'd ever been top tier was right before his rework was done? Yeah. That really sucks. But that was still his time in the spotlight.
You're not wrong that Jungle Aatrox was pretty weak, but don't take away the fact that Aatrox was indeed superior to Xin top. You're also not wrong that they have very similar kits and functions but the minor differences are very pronounced when you get to learn the individual champions. Xin Zhao functions more similarly to an assassin and does not have power spikes as strong as Aatrox in the top lane. Aatrox functions more similarly to a 'melee carry' where he can prioritise in dps and survivability as his kit offers him more in fight sustainability and power than Xin. Xin wants to offload all his damage in one go whereas Aatrox had good upfront burst with dps to back it up afterwards. This isn't even a build thing, Aatrox's old 5 hit passive, 'hell bent' along side his on demand W and Ult offer much better combat power in a 1v1 than Xin. This is bit more of a nicher complaint but you won't notice how big of a difference their all in power is until you look into their base values as well as factor in their steroids. Aatrox had extremely good base AD and base AS values and coupled with hellbent, made him an extremely good all inner. Xin Zhao on the other hand, if he doesn't take the target down in the initial dive, has very limited room to create another opportunity. I know you'll chalk this up to stats but stats make up a big part of the original character's vibe and design. Aatrox was an auto attack focused champion that focused more on his auto attacks than Xin Zhao, hence why he had a kit full of attack speed steroids and auto attack amplifiers. While Xin Zhao too has good auto attack amplifiers, they aren't nearly as specialised as Aatrox's in its function to duel someone to the death. Finally, while it's nice that you're suggesting someone else that has a similar kit to the champion we once had, as an old Aatrox player I liked Aatrox as a whole, not just because of his kit. I miss the old, mysterious, mass-murdering 'artist' that was old Aatrox. I miss the sound effects, the animations, the quotes and the atmosphere of the champion. Xin Zhao is a cool champion don't get me wrong, but I play Xin Zhao when I want to 'defeat the huns' and not necessarily when I want to revel in playing a demon born and bread for slaughter.
: {{champion:5}} Look at old Aatrox and compare him to Xin Zhao. If you want old Aatrox, just play Xin.
If you compare old Aatrox to Xin then new Aatrox is Riven 2.0, is that fair? You can't have it both ways, either they are both different or they are both the same.
: Lol trueeee I feel like Aatrox was a bad choice for a Blood Moon skin. If I were to choose someone I'd say Ekko, even though he just got the Halloween skin I feel it'd work much better than on Aatrox, or most other champs.
I feel like he fits the 'Final Boss Oni' theme pretty well but the execution could be a bit better. Still a solid skin though, if they pushed it to legendary tier that'd be even better tho, new voice would match him really well.
: I'll say it again as I've said it before: Aatrox's old playerbase were just people who didn't like to be mainstream and pick Xin Zhao. Because old Aatrox was just a worse Xin in every single way. Every strength he had outside of his base-stat-gimping gimmick, Xin matched but better. You have a champion in the style of old Aatrox. His name is Xin Zhao. Aatrox's rework wasn't FOR the people who played him. No rework should be for the people who like the current iteration of a champion. Because what they like has flaws that don't mesh well with the current game. Reworks should extend a champion's playerbase and usability, and Aatrox's did just that by giving him a new, unique kit.
If Xin Zhao is akin to being a better Aatrox SOMEHOW because they have a similar kit even though they play noticeably different to one another, then I guess Newtrox is akin to Riven 2.0 amirite? I mean 3 q's, e dash, w cc, ad steroid on ulty, PRACTICALLY THE SAME RIGHT? What a joke.
Moody P (NA)
: settle down, mate
I reckon I'm gonna get banned one of these days, you keep up the good fight however bro.
Moody P (NA)
: ? xin zhao is a dive champion who kills squishies and only squishies because he's 80% burst. Aatrox was a melee carry with an ult designed to let him orb walk almost like a marksman, which Xin Zhao is completely incapable of doing. I can guarantee you only understand either champion at face value, else you wouldn't say something so outrageously wrong.
Oh my god, these fucking non-mains with their smug and arrogant beliefs. Imagine thinking mains only played Aatrox SOLELY for his kit and imagine thinking, despite not playing him, that another champion with a similar kit plays exactly the same LUL. You can't win with these people because in their heads, they somehow think they're right. Absolute lunacy.
: I wish Yorick rework was loved the same way they love Irelia, Aatrox and Akali
Same love as the Aatrox rework hahaha... are you sure you want that buddy :sweat_smile:?
: Riven is still...Riven. She's still strong as hell in experienced hands and useless in inexperienced. Her early game was nerfed a bit a while ago I think. Don't remember how or when, though. Runes? I believe she either uses Conquerer or Electrocute as a keystone. No idea about other runes.
Nerfed? She hasn't been nerfed in a long time. She's just out of the meta right now.
Rioter Comments
Néékö (NA)
: Would this work with supports shields? {{champion:40}} on allies. {{champion:497}} his passive.
> [{quoted}](name=Looking4aHero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ydv2di0d,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-10-24T01:39:38.323+0000) > > Would this work with supports shields {{champion:40}} on allies. > {{champion:497}} his passive. I'm assuming so, it only says when you gain a shield and doesn't seem to have any restrictions to self shielding or ally shielding.
: Looks like another buff to Tank Viktor...
> [{quoted}](name=Crow Nebula,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ydv2di0d,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-10-24T01:34:51.167+0000) > > Looks like another buff to Tank Viktor... Fuck... I forgot about Viktor.
Rioter Comments
Vhan8765 (NA)
: Mostly it was just bad timing; Aatrox needed a rework, there wasn't a single doubt there. It's just insanely ironic that he got his rework literally the moment he became a viable pick. We had even been seeing some Aatrox in pro play before the rework. Mostly it's a bandwagon, but I can see perhaps some nostalgic feeling from players,
> [{quoted}](name=Vhan8765,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MtOVo6zU,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-05T23:31:40.072+0000) > > Mostly it was just bad timing; Aatrox needed a rework, there wasn't a single doubt there. It's just insanely ironic that he got his rework literally the moment he became a viable pick. We had even been seeing some Aatrox in pro play before the rework. Mostly it's a bandwagon, but I can seem perhaps some nostalgic feeling from players, No doubt he needed a rework, his kit was obviously dated. I just wish they kept the core of his gameplay the same. I really didn't care about him being pro played or not, I just wanted him to feel good for the players that already played him.
Ætheist (NA)
: Why do I see people acting like the old Aatrox was some amazing design compared to the new one?
I really enjoyed playing Aatrox. He was the one champion that kept me playing the game throughout the years. You can say his kit resembles Xin or Irelia but just like how people say newtrox is 'riven 2.0', they play completely differently. Maybe he wasn't exceptional in given the player or the opponent the satisfaction of 'outplay' but he was really never a problem for players like me who stuck with him through thick and thin, through bramble and all to make him work. In my opinion, why delete him when he didn't really harm the game? I don't see why it's wrong to want more simple champions than champions like reworked Irelia, Akali or Kai'sa who when in competent hands, have very little 'counterplay' and are able to take over the entire game. If anything, the rework we had hoped for was meant to turn him into a better version of himself, not an entirely new champion.
Moody P (NA)
: don't expect reasonable discourse on boards where if something doesn't have at least 3 spells dedicated to SKILLSHOTS then it's a bad design and needs to be VGU'd
> [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sRf1Juc9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-28T21:50:18.410+0000) > > don't expect reasonable discourse on boards where if something doesn't have at least 3 spells dedicated to SKILLSHOTS then it's a bad design and needs to be VGU'd haha but buddy, don't you remember? irelia and akali were MASTERFUL reworks! they took all the great parts of the old kits and made them even better! they're super balanced too! :^)
: Yi does need major changes but he ain’t no super drain tank Aatrox, or completely useless Aatrox.
I can't believe people still call pre-rework Aatrox a drain tank. It's fucking pathetic how far out of touch you guys are with old Aatrox but continue to blabber on about things you seriously have no idea about. HERE ARE THE STRAIGHT NUMBERS AFTER HIS LIGHT REWORK: HEAL: 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 (+ 6.5% missing health) on every THIRD hit (keeping in mind he can't use his damage sword, if he uses his healing sword). Wow, now I don't know about you, but those are NOT drain tank level heals. If you think you can tank through the season 8 nukes, generic auto attacks that crit you an excess amount of hundreds of hp+, ignites and what have you with a miniscule 150hp-ish heal every third auto attack, you are quite fucking delusional. This isn't even taking into account the fact that Aatrox is a melee champion and has to get in range to do any form of damage, let alone, healing. HERE ARE THE NUMBERS FOR HIS WINRATE/PICKRATE: http://na.op.gg/champion/aatrox/statistics/top From 8.6 - 8.11, 6 patches in a row where Aatrox was consistent a very strong top champion (sitting anywhere between 1st in w/r to 17th on his bad days where he still averaged a 50% winrate average), Where were the complaints? Where were the bans? oh wait, they didn't exist. This entirely made up story where he was this overbearing, disgustingly broken feast or famine champion that was ruining the game was just a convenient thing for Riot to say and for sheep to follow and agree to the champion being removed from the game. It was ONLY when he became meta, when his new found interaction of Conq + Titanic + Guinsoo was doing very well that he was a 'problem'. tl;dr - Aatrox hasn't been a drain tank for a long time, he didn't even build bork anymore. STFU with that bullshit. If you want to talk about a drain tank, talk about graves but stop spewing bs on a champion you have absolutely ZERO idea about except from the vague clips and regurgitated information you heard in season 3. THANK YOU.
: Darius doesn't need more damage buffs
Thank you for speaking out, I'm sick of seeing these ridiculous changes for the sake of changes. This is how you get champions nerfed to the ground. I DON'T EVEN PLAY DARIUS.
: The reason that champ power is so high is that you can no longer counter build runes in champion select to have a better build against certain enemy teams. Riot changed the game to be more focused on picking op champions instead of being able to adapt individual champions to their enemies when they removed the old rune system. I had 10+ rune pages i'd swap between depending on my role and enemy team makeup. The new rune system is just masteries reforged and runes are gone.
Agreed but Riot Games doesn't want boring balance anymore :[
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Why is Aatrox building like an Assassin?
Quite frankly, the issue is more than the champion itself. Currently the meta still supports the pursuit of damage and one shotting and as Aatrox he's stuck in a tough place right now where he has to decide between getting out scaled and being a dysfunctional juggernaut or forego his intended design and go straight assassin/full damage. It's funny because the rework intended to cement Aatrox's playstyle as a pokey-juggernaut but with how the game works right now, it just doesn't make sense to really play him like that. I'm still trying to make his juggernaut playstyle transition into the late game and 'feel good' and I think conqueror (despite being a flawed rune for someone like Aatrox) is the only answer for that currently. Otherwise, it's dark harvest and building full damage because as far as most mains have experienced, there's not much room for build diversity.
: I just want Riot to remove promos. Why do these two games determine whether I’m worth going into the next tier / division?
> [{quoted}](name=Caramel Frappe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7oE6cgZO,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2018-09-18T02:41:45.646+0000) > > I just want Riot to remove promos. Why do these two games determine whether I’m worth going into the next tier / division? Well, It's either that and being able to not instantly demote the moment you lose MMR/LP thresholds or the opposite where you climb quickly but fall just as fast.
Moody P (NA)
: Kind of feel like old Irelia was more reasonable than new
I agree with you OP, I don't feel like Irelia's or Akali's rework put much thought into the concepts of 'counterplay'. In my honest opinion the majority of reworks seem to just overload previous kits with MORE things rather than cut and define clear weaknesses and strengths in a champion. This is doubly problematic when we take into consideration the poor state of runes and itemisation. I'm probably going to take a lot of flack for this but, I firmly believe the game was much easier to balance when all we had to worry about was overtuned stats. Stats are easy adjustments but new skills, interactions and what have you seriously powercreeps this game and turns an otherwise easy fix into balancing nightmares. On that note however, there has been a very good rework recently (Nunu) and I'm hoping riot takes more inspiration from that rework then the not so great Irelia, Akali and Aatrox (please don't remove champions from the game) reworks.
: > [{quoted}](name=Slave Knight,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=E1jRotNE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-09-12T04:45:56.751+0000) > > Stop trying to impose your laws on how to be respectful and honourable opponents because quite frankly, the people that aren't listening don't care. No one is trying to 'earn' your respect, they're all trying to win. If that means tilting the fuck out of you, well that's what they're going to do. > > I'll be completely real with you, no one cares about your code of honor or conduct when they play league. There are going to be people that are terrible human beings that just want to get under your skin. You need to block those people out because all they're going to do is drag you down and tilt you in your later games. It doesn't matter if they cheesed you, it doesn't matter if they picked the most disgusting shit, it doesn't matter if they told their jungler to camp you and gank you multiple times, as long as you are calm and play to win, then the fight isn't over yet (at least psychologically). > > Don't worry about what they're saying, don't ever communicate back, instantly mute and play on. If they're toxic, report them. Just don't get angry and upset because that's what they want to happen to you. Good luck. You can play to win without being a massive douche. And that applies regardless of whether you win or lose. Excuse the general community for saying "We expect you to show sportsmanship."
I don't think you understand the purpose of my post. I'm not trying to sugarcoat BS to the OP, I gave him real and valuable advice on how to deal with the negative players that don't give a damn about the rules. If you don't realise why my post was worded so aggressively, you may want to read the OP's post again. He's obvious frustrated and came here to vent, but do you not see the tone in arrogance and conceitedness to think that other player should always show him the 'sportsmanship he deserves'? Personally, I don't like the idea of flexing either but I'm being realistic here, what the OP did to express his dissatisfaction for the players he just faced made him look stupid as hell. The post wasn't worded to only talk about the idea of 'ez', I bet that was just the icing on the cake, he wanted to complain about 'try-hards' because he got stomped AND THEN got flexed on. It's like watching one of those arrogant youtubers/streamers that keep spouting things like 'omg he's so bad' when they're getting killed by the other guy using every means to his disposal. Oh yeah, just in case you wanted to know my stance on Irelia/Ignite, yeah I don't think they're in a balanced state right now either.
: If you take Ignite top, won hard & then spam "ez" at my team, I have 0 respect for you
Stop trying to impose your laws on how to be respectful and honourable opponents because quite frankly, the people that aren't listening don't care. No one is trying to 'earn' your respect, they're all trying to win. If that means tilting the fuck out of you, well that's what they're going to do. I'll be completely real with you, no one cares about your code of honor or conduct when they play league. There are going to be people that are terrible human beings that just want to get under your skin. You need to block those people out because all they're going to do is drag you down and tilt you in your later games. It doesn't matter if they cheesed you, it doesn't matter if they picked the most disgusting shit, it doesn't matter if they told their jungler to camp you and gank you multiple times, as long as you are calm and play to win, then the fight isn't over yet (at least psychologically). Don't worry about what they're saying, don't ever communicate back, instantly mute and play on. If they're toxic, report them. Just don't get angry and upset because that's what they want to happen to you. Good luck.
: If you want to discuss about not wanting a champion to get updated/rework...
I can't speak for the other mains but I knew the Aatrox rework was coming. While I really enjoyed the old Aatrox there was definitely room for improvement. It's no lie that his old kit was kind of bland and binary, I didn't want too much done to it but even if they changed all his abilities, if they somehow managed to keep his theme of this aggressive, in your face, fight to the death kind of character, I'd be down for that. Unfortunately, I took the gamble and it didn't pay off too well for me. Not going to lie, I am starting to enjoy Boris a bit more and his quotes are starting to grow on me but... there's no replacement for Aatrox. Oh yeah, we did voice our opinions on what to keep multiple times btw.
: you really gotta feel for old aatrox players
Such is the cruel life of an Aatrox main.
Dolasaur (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Slave Knight,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-08-26T08:30:51.504+0000) > > Maybe it was small in comparison to the rest of the league, but we existed. We just weren't very vocal. If you go months back to when the light rework first hit and they didn't compensate for nerfing the passive and the healing proc, you'll see we were pretty vocal there too. > > But that's the sad part about all of this, we were too small to be noticed or cared about so they could do whatever they wanted to Aatrox. We didn't matter to them. I know you expressed how sad you are over the rework, and I feel you. It sucks when you really enjoy parts of a champion and Riot changes it anyway. I stopped playing Veigar after his E changed from standard cast delay to extra delay, and that was just one moved that killed him for me. I'm lucky none of the champs I enjoy have gotten a full VGU. That said, "we didn't get our way" and "we didn't matter to them" are not the same thing. You're free to have your own feelings about how the VGU ended up. But please don't belittle the efforts of the developers who each spent hundreds of effort trying to make a champion that both veteran Aatrox mains, potential new ones, and the other 9 players in each game would love. This isn't licensed shovelware.
> [{quoted}](name=Dolasaur,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=001100000000,timestamp=2018-08-26T09:28:26.537+0000) > > I know you expressed how sad you are over the rework, and I feel you. It sucks when you really enjoy parts of a champion and Riot changes it anyway. I stopped playing Veigar after his E changed from standard cast delay to extra delay, and that was just one moved that killed him for me. I'm lucky none of the champs I enjoy have gotten a full VGU. > > That said, "we didn't get our way" and "we didn't matter to them" are not the same thing. You're free to have your own feelings about how the VGU ended up. But please don't belittle the efforts of the developers who each spent hundreds of effort trying to make a champion that both veteran Aatrox mains, potential new ones, and the other 9 players in each game would love. This isn't licensed shovelware. I see where you're coming from but I don't think you understand how insulting the rework was. First of all, they were clear it wasn't aimed towards Aatrox mains - https://www.riftherald.com/interviews/2018/7/10/17550874/aatrox-rework-interview-riot-jag They never communicated with us and only allowed various streamers (none of which played Aatrox) to playtest the champion behind closed doors. They took the parts that were 'toxic' from the old kit and strapped it onto the new kit under the guise that it would fix the old problems old Aatrox had - which it didn't because you can just look at the current Aatrox's balance history. Called the original Aatrox 'unbalanceable' because 'stat check' but then defends Yi who many would argue, is an even worse offender. And finally, our designer Riot Jag doesn't even play this champion... granted he is an ADC main but still. Wouldn't playing the very champion you've designed give you a better insight on possible areas of improvement? Especially with how annoying the Aatrox mains are (Yes, I recognize that there are a lot of Aatrox mains that can't simply be reasoned with anymore and are beyond help), wouldn't you just want to shut them all up? I don't know man, this rework doesn't feel very genuine at all. I'm very skeptical it took them the amount of time specified but I do appreciate their effort in making this champion, especially in the lore, music, visuals, and art. I just don't appreciate the excuses for deleting our old champion and forcing us to accept that this new character is somehow the same dude we used to play before.
Thite (EUNE)
: If you liked the old aatrox go to roblox or dota and youll find yourself there.
Old Aatrox was the reason I played league of legends, now I don't really have anything that keeps me wanting to play. I appreciate the suggestions but it's just not the same.
: > [{quoted}](name=Slave Knight,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-25T12:13:28.358+0000) > > I REALLY, REALLY disagree that old aatrox was THAT problematic that they needed to change his entire kit. Especially since Newtrox took everything old aatrox could do besides dueling/dps and made it even better (look at those sustain and ult nerfs lol). > > Refer to this good ol' post (this talks about old aatrox's design even before he got the light rework which made him pretty healthy to play and play against) - http://www.surrenderat20.net/2013/06/morello-on-aatroxsustain-xypherous-on.htm For a while now, it has been known that old Riot designers weren't a fan of Aatrox's old kit, and thought it was some form of toxic or non-interactive. I think I'd understand a rework, if it had been undertaken by Riot's old designers under an actual design philosophy. But it wasnt. Today's designer's philosophy is to keep what makes a champion feel toxic anyway. So you are completely right about that. Aatrox has been shelved and forgotten for so long that by the time his rework came out, there was no need. They didn't actually fix anything that was deemed as the whole reason he "needed" a rework. All they did was take him away from the people who stuck by and loved the champion for the years he was forgotten by everyone else. It's just bullshit.
> [{quoted}](name=Moons of Jupiter,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2018-08-25T19:23:52.147+0000) > > For a while now, it has been known that old Riot designers weren't a fan of Aatrox's old kit, and thought it was some form of toxic or non-interactive. I think I'd understand a rework, if it had been undertaken by Riot's old designers under an actual design philosophy. > > But it wasnt. > > Today's designer's philosophy is to keep what makes a champion feel toxic anyway. So you are completely right about that. Aatrox has been shelved and forgotten for so long that by the time his rework came out, there was no need. They didn't actually fix anything that was deemed as the whole reason he "needed" a rework. All they did was take him away from the people who stuck by and loved the champion for the years he was forgotten by everyone else. > > It's just bullshit. Agreed.
: Lmao nobody even played Aatrox until two months ago, what is this
Maybe it was small in comparison to the rest of the league, but we existed. We just weren't very vocal. If you go months back to when the light rework first hit and they didn't compensate for nerfing the passive and the healing proc, you'll see we were pretty vocal there too. But that's the sad part about all of this, we were too small to be noticed or cared about so they could do whatever they wanted to Aatrox. We didn't matter to them.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Let me know when Yi heals for half his HP bar per auto, when yi gets an unstopable knockup, and when yi gets an auto revive passive.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-08-25T19:30:47.649+0000) > > Let me know when Yi heals for half his HP bar per auto, when yi gets an unstopable knockup, and when yi gets an auto revive passive. This is exactly the type of post that plagues the forums. 1. You can't just point of some random things on old Aatrox's kit and not talk about what makes Master Yi a 'nightmare' to balance as well. 2. While Yi might not have built in sustain on his auto attacks, he has built in true damage and has a resetting mechanic on nearly all of his abilities that allows him to push absurd amount of damage and also mitigate damage (untargettable btw). 3. Aatrox didn't heal for that much AFTER his light rework, at maxed ranks it heals for 90 + 6.5% MISSING health. In a normal build with 3000hp and let's say you've lost 1000hp, that's like... 150hp on every THIRD hit not including any additional healing amps/grievous wounds. Oh yeah, if you leave it on blood thirst, you don't do damage because you need to switch it to blood price but if you do that, well you don't heal! HMM. Not like other champions who can do BOTH (Xin, Old Irelia, Olaf, etc). 4. Man you're really good with these over exaggerations. Unstoppable knock up? Only on the downwards dive and even then it's not guaranteed, the skill was both buggy AND had a long cooldown. Auto revive passive? You're speaking strictly first iteration Aatrox and to compensate for that, he had TERRIBLE base stats and had HUGE health costs. Please read up this: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2013/06/morello-on-aatroxsustain-xypherous-on.html
: He needed a rework, but this rework is also bad. They made him from a champ with a terrible kit and overloaded numbers that made him viable/overpowered (though he was then nerfed and left in the dumpster for years) Into...a champ with an even worse kit, and absolutely absurd numbers. And now he's up for nerfs again. They chose to preserve his revive which is absolutely the least interesting thing about him. Also his healing (which should be the most interesting thing about him) is far too strong in the early game where it is oppressive and should be weak, and is kinda unnoticeable and useless in the lategame where it should be strong. Shoulda made him more like old ad Sion but with more tools/skill expression, or The Butcher from HotS. That shit is fun to play at least.
> [{quoted}](name=Nyandere,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-08-25T18:34:17.476+0000) > > He needed a rework, but this rework is also bad. > > They made him from a champ with a terrible kit and overloaded numbers that made him viable/overpowered (though he was then nerfed and left in the dumpster for years) > > Into...a champ with an even worse kit, and absolutely absurd numbers. And now he's up for nerfs again. > > They chose to preserve his revive which is absolutely the least interesting thing about him. > > Also his healing (which should be the most interesting thing about him) is far too strong in the early game where it is oppressive and should be weak, and is kinda unnoticeable and useless in the lategame where it should be strong. > > Shoulda made him more like old ad Sion but with more tools/skill expression, or The Butcher from HotS. That shit is fun to play at least. Don't know anything about the Butcher, but the rest I agree with. He needed a rework but how they went about it on this project... I'm not a fan.
: I'm going to over all the things you said that are wrong and why you are full of crap and that no one should listen to you: >We get it, you didn't like old Aatrox. You didn't care about the players and you didn't give a damn about the old design... but don't give us all these bullshit excuses on why the removal/replacement of our champion was a 'positive' for the game. You must explain how the replacement of Aatrox is a net negative for the game or why they didn't care about the old design. Riot cared about the old design enough that Aatrox still has their signature revive after death thing. It wasn't positive for old Aatorx mains, who only played him when he became OP, but it was a positive for the new Aatrox mains. More happy new mains than less unhappy old mains is a net positive. >Master Yi isn't a statcheck but Aatrox was? Correct. The term statcheck, meaning you win as soon as your stats are higher,m does not pertain to junglers since Yi's laning is terrible. >Old Aatrox wasn't as beginner friendly as Master Yi? Correct. I'm not sure if this was a reason Riot gave for reworking Aatrox, but it is a correct statement nonetheless. Yi is more beginner friendly and has a simply, non-complex kit. >He didn't exactly excel at anything but covered a good amount of bases that he could flex in what he wanted to prioritize (he could build for a split push, build to frontline and do bruiserish damage or build to TRY and carry). This is just wrong. Old Aatrox excelled at many things. Maybe with your skill level you just couldn't play him effectively. >Let me tell you guys what's the most frustrating part. Having your champion left to rot for 3 or so years before they decide to do any work on him and in that time he has garnered the reputation of being the worst champion in the game (even though he wasn't). I actually agree somewhat. I was an Old Urgot main, but I'm not crying about it now nor did I cry about it months after the rework. There's something special about old Aatrox mains that makes them so volatile. Maybe these kinds of people were attracted to Aatrox's edgy personality and aesthetic. Us old Urgot mains are far more mature and sensible. >I don't really know how to end this post so I'll just say this Riot Games, money comes and goes but trust, trust is something that needs to be earned. And you've lost mine. The money Riot is making from new Aatrox mains pails in comparison to the money lost from old Aatrox mains who most likely already bought all the Aatrox skins they wanted.
I'm full of crap? You're the one talking out of your ass. >You must explain how the replacement of Aatrox is a net negative for the game or why they didn't care about the old design. Riot cared about the old design enough that Aatrox still has their signature revive after death thing. 1. They didn't care about the old design because they didn't even attempt to keep the same style of gameplay. Irelia and Akali reworks were shipped out, and they were 'problematic' champions as well, so I don't see why more effort wasn't put in to keep what players already loved. Mains that played the champion knew the GA revive was one of the things holding him back from having actually strong/good abilities. >It wasn't positive for old Aatorx mains, who only played him when he became OP, but it was a positive for the new Aatrox mains. 2. Old Aatrox mains that only played him when he was OP? Did you even read my post. The majority of complaints came from DEDICATED players. Of course, there were also some rubbish posts too about "why did you change him when he just became OP!!!" but alas, I'm not speaking on their behalf. >More happy new mains than less unhappy old mains is a net positive. 3. More happy new mains than less happy old mains is a net positive? It reflects poorly on the company and the designer that handled the rework and is going to stain his name in all his next projects. Also, how are those new mains feeling about those huge nerfs coming their way for Aatrox? I bet they're REALLY enjoy that he's pick/ban in the pro scene and that he's probably going to balanced around the pro scene right? >Correct. The term statcheck, meaning you win as soon as your stats are higher,m does not pertain to junglers since Yi's laning is terrible. 4. The term stat check or 'ability check' iirc, originated from http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/ability-check. D&D, a tabletop game... a game where you take turns to decide how much damage you actually apply to another player and that isn't happening in real time. In my opinion, the term 'statcheck' has been overused and skewed to fit narratives in this game. In every single game you have players who control their champion's movement, control their champion's spells, control their items and work with their team to try and obliterate the enemy nexus. It's not always going to be a 1v1 auto attack death battle every game and even then, there's always some room for outplay. Statcheck by how it's commonly used nowadays by Riot and the rest is that "if you have more stats, you should win". SO THEN, how the fuck are you going to tell me that the term is only reserved for the lane? So what... if Master Yi goes into his jungle, afk farms and gets all his items and comes out of the jungle he's not 'stat checking' people because he's been in the jungle? What are you even fucking saying. >This is just wrong. Old Aatrox excelled at many things. Maybe with your skill level you just couldn't play him effectively. 5. Old Aatrox excelled at many things? Tell me something where he was strictly the best at. The top of his class. Here I'll even start you off. Dueling? Nope. You've got Jax, Tryn, Yi, Fiora, etc. Splitpushing? You've got the aforementioned champions. Sustain? After the light rework it was similar to all the other top laners, gated by 3rd hits and no real scaling. Tower Diving? Riven & the aforementioned duelists do it on par or better. The thing he excelled at and was known for was the fact that he was a jack of all trades master of none. How the fuck are you going to tell a player who's played the champion for this long "maybe with your skill level you just couldn't play him effectively" lmao. >I actually agree somewhat. I was an Old Urgot main, but I'm not crying about it now nor did I cry about it months after the rework. There's something special about old Aatrox mains that makes them so volatile. Maybe these kinds of people were attracted to Aatrox's edgy personality and aesthetic. 6. I think it's a fair reaction for old mains to be pissed when their champions has been removed from the game without a good reason behind it. You didn't whinge and whine when urgot was changed? Well, that's goods for you or "maybe with your skill level you just couldn't play him effectively" lol. >The money Riot is making from new Aatrox mains pails in comparison to the money lost from old Aatrox mains who most likely already bought all the Aatrox skins they wanted. 7. From what I'm seeing, most new Aatrox players don't have any skins for Aatrox. THEY'RE the bandwagoners that jumped on because the new champion was 'OP', not the old ones. The ones with skins ALREADY owned the champion and skin. So I doubt they've made much money from new Aatrox. Sorry for the shitty formatting.
: > [{quoted}](name=Slave Knight,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T13:23:15.178+0000) > > LMAO. Okay I know you're a new Aatrox player but "champs that rely heavily on stat checking and ARENT JUGGERNAUTS are bound to be problematic" this is so fucking biased it's laughable. Either you live and die by the blade, or you don't. New aatrox player. AHahahaha good one. And why am i biased?
I mean... I even put it in capital letters lol.
: > [{quoted}](name=Slave Knight,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-25T12:57:04.318+0000) > > You don't know how problematic he was but... he just was? You can say that about any champion lol. *sigh* Yes he was. Champs that rely heavily on stat checking and arent juggernauts are bound to be problematic.
> [{quoted}](name=VanaQuish,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-25T13:03:29.110+0000) > > *sigh* Yes he was. Champs that rely heavily on stat checking and arent juggernauts are bound to be problematic. LMAO. Okay I know you're a new Aatrox player but "champs that rely heavily on stat checking and ARENT JUGGERNAUTS are bound to be problematic" this is so fucking biased it's laughable. Either you live and die by the blade, or you don't.
: > [{quoted}](name=Slave Knight,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=lgvNyTx8,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-25T12:13:28.358+0000) > > I REALLY, REALLY disagree that old aatrox was THAT problematic that they needed to change his entire kit. Especially since Newtrox took everything old aatrox could do besides dueling/dps and made it even better (look at those sustain and ult nerfs lol). I dont know in a scale to 10 how problematic old aatrox was. But he was. If he got ahead he could 1v1 anyone and sometimes 2v1. If you could escape you are cool. If not well tough luck. Better luck next time.
You don't know how problematic he was but... he just was? You can say that about any champion lol.
: Pretty well written thread, I must say You got my attention, my support and my upvote amigo
Appreciate it, friend.
: Tbf they rework champs when they are problematic and when they have a clear rework theme. (although i still feel like aatrox's rework it would be better for morde's)
I REALLY, REALLY disagree that old aatrox was THAT problematic that they needed to change his entire kit. Especially since Newtrox took everything old aatrox could do besides dueling/dps and made it even better (look at those sustain and ult nerfs lol). Refer to this good ol' post (this talks about old aatrox's design even before he got the light rework which made him pretty healthy to play and play against) - http://www.surrenderat20.net/2013/06/morello-on-aatroxsustain-xypherous-on.htm
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Slave Knight

Level 66 (OCE)
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