: > In reverse actually. Lethality is for penetrating base armor. Lethality penetrates both base and bonus armor, AKA the actual amount penetrated is split amongst both depending of their mutual proportions, but it doesn't matter at all either way since the amount chipped is the same in both cases. A lvl 6 {{champion:238}} with no item has an attack of 76.4 without any items, and with only a {{item:3134}} dirk as an item will have 101.4 attack damage with 7.33 lethality A lvl 6 {{champion:101}} will have a respectable (for a mage that is) 35.7 armor, which gives a damage reduction of 26% damage, meaning that a no item Zed will deal 56.53 damage (reduction of almost 20 damage). If the Xerath has a **_FULLY CHARGED_** {{item:3191}} , he will have 80.7 armor, which is roughly 45% of damage reduction. If we add in lethality, mage boi now has about 73.4 armor (42% of reduction). Now, the Zed with his new toy will deal 58.4 damage (reduction of about 43 damage). Oh wow, what a surprise! The fully stacked defense item is getting not only countered by the lethality one, but it actually gets **surpassed**! And this, without even taking Dirk's effect in the calculations! We could end it there, but **... for the time Seekers will stack, time advances and Xp is gathered, _meaning that the amound of lethality and damage also increases (faster than defenses btw)_**. Seekers needs 30 killed units to be at its peak, meaning you need at least 5 waves to do so. This means that you have more than enough xp to reach lvl 8, meaning {{champion:238}} will have 7.88 lethality and 107.6 damage, while {{champion:101}} is at 87.1 armor (almost 47% reduction without lethality). Now, with the new lvls and the new lethality amount, we get to do about 60 damage. Wow, just by adding 2 lvl, even with both situations having fully stacked {{item:3191}} , we see that lvl growth actually makes seeker more and more useless defense-wise (it gets even worse if we consider either Dirk's effect, or the fact that {{item:3147}} brings even more lethality and even more attack damage while {{item:3157}} brings the exact same armor as its stacked component) Actually, a non stacked seeker's at lvl 6 (with specified stats for this exact level) will let Zed deal a whopping 63 damage. With this, we discover that if we take the time needed for Seeker's to stack, its passive will prevent a mere 3 damage, thats it. Add in dirk's 40 damage effect (reducted to between 20-25 damage depending once again of the armor) and we can safely say that **_{{item:3134}} surpasses completely {{item:3191}} , even if they are both the same price and that the difference only gets worse and worse with time _**. > Your 1100 gold Seeker's negates 9000 gold of lethality items, reducing them to nothing more than bonus AD and passives. Considering every point of lethality at level 18 is worth 22.5 gold based on the wiki, 9000 gold is enough to negate a whopping *400 armor*. At level 6, the lethality from {{item:3134}} is worth about 30.70 each, meaning that 9000 gold of this is enough to negate *293.16 armor*. Of course, this price is based on lethality alone and is only appliable if it was possible to buy pure lethality, but this just shows that lethality, as a stat alone, is EXTREMELY efficient against armor (priced 20 gold per points on the wiki) since it is linked with some absurd damage options (in case you forgot: the biggest part of the price of the items is linked to damage, which lethality needs since it can't do nothing by itself). You see, lethality is just a bonus stat to negate some parts of the defenses, its not meant to 100% counter defense items to be able to make them completely useless, its for decreasing their general value as defense options so the attack damage linked to it will bypass the rest. Thats why even if lethality alone can't counter entirely armor, the damage value its linked item has will make up for it and the combination of both (as seen above) will completely bypass the defense item, making an attempt of reducing damage countered by still doing more damage than before. So, the single fact that you buy an armor item against lethality will not actually decrease damage, but just slow down its growth, and this can only be reliably done by consistently buying armor items, which isn't something that any midlaner in the meta will do. I do look at things properly before making a judgement: I don't declare {{item:3191}} countered by {{item:3134}} just because I feel like so, but because this simple fact has been known for years now for mages and, sadly, you didn't seem to know it yet.
> [{quoted}](name=PaffWasTaken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=0002000300000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T06:22:24.570+0000) > > Lethality penetrates both base and bonus armor, AKA the actual amount penetrated is split amongst both depending of their mutual proportions, but it doesn't matter at all either way since the amount chipped is the same in both cases. > > A lvl 6 {{champion:238}} with no item has an attack of 76.4 without any items, and with only a {{item:3134}} dirk as an item will have 101.4 attack damage with 7.33 lethality > > A lvl 6 {{champion:101}} will have a respectable (for a mage that is) 35.7 armor, which gives a damage reduction of 26% damage, meaning that a no item Zed will deal 56.53 damage (reduction of almost 20 damage). If the Xerath has a **_FULLY CHARGED_** {{item:3191}} , he will have 80.7 armor, which is roughly 45% of damage reduction. If we add in lethality, mage boi now has about 73.4 armor (42% of reduction). Now, the Zed with his new toy will deal 58.4 damage (reduction of about 43 damage). > > Oh wow, what a surprise! The fully stacked defense item is getting not only countered by the lethality one, but it actually gets **surpassed**! And this, without even taking Dirk's effect in the calculations! We could end it there, but **... for the time Seekers will stack, time advances and Xp is gathered, _meaning that the amound of lethality and damage also increases (faster than defenses btw)_**. Seekers needs 30 killed units to be at its peak, meaning you need at least 5 waves to do so. This means that you have more than enough xp to reach lvl 8, meaning {{champion:238}} will have 7.88 lethality and 107.6 damage, while {{champion:101}} is at 87.1 armor (almost 47% reduction without lethality). Now, with the new lvls and the new lethality amount, we get to do about 60 damage. Wow, just by adding 2 lvl, even with both situations having fully stacked {{item:3191}} , we see that lvl growth actually makes seeker more and more useless defense-wise (it gets even worse if we consider either Dirk's effect, or the fact that {{item:3147}} brings even more lethality and even more attack damage while {{item:3157}} brings the exact same armor as its stacked component) > > Actually, a non stacked seeker's at lvl 6 (with specified stats for this exact level) will let Zed deal a whopping 63 damage. With this, we discover that if we take the time needed for Seeker's to stack, its passive will prevent a mere 3 damage, thats it. Add in dirk's 40 damage effect (reducted to between 20-25 damage depending once again of the armor) and we can safely say that **_{{item:3134}} surpasses completely {{item:3191}} , even if they are both the same price and that the difference only gets worse and worse with time _**. > > Considering every point of lethality at level 18 is worth 22.5 gold based on the wiki, 9000 gold is enough to negate a whopping *400 armor*. At level 6, the lethality from {{item:3134}} is worth about 30.70 each, meaning that 9000 gold of this is enough to negate *293.16 armor*. Of course, this price is based on lethality alone and is only appliable if it was possible to buy pure lethality, but this just shows that lethality, as a stat alone, is EXTREMELY efficient against armor (priced 20 gold per points on the wiki) since it is linked with some absurd damage options (in case you forgot: the biggest part of the price of the items is linked to damage, which lethality needs since it can't do nothing by itself). You see, lethality is just a bonus stat to negate some parts of the defenses, its not meant to 100% counter defense items to be able to make them completely useless, its for decreasing their general value as defense options so the attack damage linked to it will bypass the rest. Thats why even if lethality alone can't counter entirely armor, the damage value its linked item has will make up for it and the combination of both (as seen above) will completely bypass the defense item, making an attempt of reducing damage countered by still doing more damage than before. So, the single fact that you buy an armor item against lethality will not actually decrease damage, but just slow down its growth, and this can only be reliably done by consistently buying armor items, which isn't something that any midlaner in the meta will do. > > I do look at things properly before making a judgement: I don't declare {{item:3191}} countered by {{item:3134}} just because I feel like so, but because this simple fact has been known for years now for mages and, sadly, you didn't seem to know it yet. No, lol. You're doing this all wrong. This is totally, completely incorrect. You literally just proved my point, and then stated that you'd done otherwise. All the lethality available on items in the game is 18 + 18 + 21, culminating at 57. Armguard gives 45 armor. The entire purpose of lethality items in negated by a single 1100 purchase. Lethality is most effective against people who have bought 0 external armor due to it being a flat amount. At even a seeker's, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper are much better at penetrating. Going flat AD items like Death's Dance and Hydra give you MORE DAMAGE than buying a ghostblade against anyone with this amount of armor. That's why there's an issue with it. Seeker's counters Dirk. In fact, Seeker's offers enough armor to negate all that lethality, and still surpass it by 35 EVEN at level 18.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T02:23:27.501+0000) > > "LL Stylish's Zed 100-30% a fed Sivir with only E+auto, not landing a single Q. " > > Agree with a decent bit of what you said, but just wanted to point out that this isn't really the champion himself. It's an auto attack plus an ability that does the same or less than an auto attack. > > I'd say that's more a product of dusk + runes. Nothing in Zed's kit was used here except his E, which I'm sure most people agree is a pretty shitty ability. If he's doing 70% of her hp in essentially two autos I think there's a problem with overall damage, or he was surely 5 levels up. Zed's E does 170+80% AD It hits harder than an Akali Q and hits barely below her empowered auto from Q. Fizz's Urchin Strike also deals less damage. Katarina's bouncing dagger is 195 damage + 30% AP, so it does more than her bouncing dagger or Shunpo, which means literally all her damage is sunk into a sinister steel proc. So Zed's E isn't really that bad an ability. It's on par with a Yasuo noncrit steel tempest. The problem is not just items. Zed's autos actually are beefy, it's why the new thing with him in melee match ups is to take Hail of Blades. Laceration, one of the two single Zed challengers in NA (LL Stylish is barely Grandmaster, the guy just has great publicity even tho twtvZaionlol and Laceration consistently outrank him in LoL, but he gets more content of snowballed videos via edited youtube videos), also skills into E when laning against Yasuos and has an easy time out trading them because of it. If Zed hits WE+2 point blank Q's he will virtually out trade any assassin, and to top it off he has animation cancelling. It's a really high potential damage champ and bar none the best scaling assassin. His late game win rate is absurd while most other assassins drastically drop off. I went and saw Talon's 7 year old video, and wow has damage creep gotten ridiculously bad in this game. A full Talon combo was doing at most 40% of a target's health but in return the Talon was also not immediately blowing up if anyone so much as sneezed at him. I think it's the reason assassins are in such a shoddy arms race, because the overall incoming damage is so stupid that they need to blow up a target in 3 seconds or die themselves in the same amount of time.
> [{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T05:10:43.969+0000) > > Zed's E does 170+80% AD > > It hits harder than an Akali Q and hits barely below her empowered auto from Q. Fizz's Urchin Strike also deals less damage. > > Katarina's bouncing dagger is 195 damage + 30% AP, so it does more than her bouncing dagger or Shunpo, which means literally all her damage is sunk into a sinister steel proc. > > So Zed's E isn't really that bad an ability. It's on par with a Yasuo noncrit steel tempest. > > The problem is not just items. Zed's autos actually are beefy, it's why the new thing with him in melee match ups is to take Hail of Blades. Laceration, one of the two single Zed challengers in NA (LL Stylish is barely Grandmaster, the guy just has great publicity even tho twtvZaionlol and Laceration consistently outrank him in LoL, but he gets more content of snowballed videos via edited youtube videos), also skills into E when laning against Yasuos and has an easy time out trading them because of it. > > If Zed hits WE+2 point blank Q's he will virtually out trade any assassin, and to top it off he has animation cancelling. It's a really high potential damage champ and bar none the best scaling assassin. His late game win rate is absurd while most other assassins drastically drop off. > > I went and saw Talon's 7 year old video, and wow has damage creep gotten ridiculously bad in this game. A full Talon combo was doing at most 40% of a target's health but in return the Talon was also not immediately blowing up if anyone so much as sneezed at him. > > I think it's the reason assassins are in such a shoddy arms race, because the overall incoming damage is so stupid that they need to blow up a target in 3 seconds or die themselves in the same amount of time. Yea, damage creep is insane. What I'm saying though is that Zed's auto would've had to deal like 35% of her health...and at that point I mean I don't know what else to tell you. Either he was full build at 10 minutes or he crit with an IE or something. The damage creep is insane but not to the point of chunking 1/3 health in an auto like that
: The passives are not directly comparable and cannot have a value placed on them. Even if I could use the passives to justify the "200% efficient" logic, this guy is then suggesting that Duskblade's passive is worth more than an entire goddamn item, which is complete bullshit.
> [{quoted}](name=TotalJerk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=00120000000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T04:20:30.063+0000) > > The passives are not directly comparable and cannot have a value placed on them. Even if I could use the passives to justify the "200% efficient" logic, this guy is then suggesting that Duskblade's passive is worth more than an entire goddamn item, which is complete bullshit. The stats given by Seeker's do make it the most gold efficient item in the game, and it's a component. Arguing otherwise is just being untruthful. Duskblade's passives are irrelevant, because it costs nearly three times as much. Compare it to Dirk instead, where it outshines it massively.
Saianna (EUNE)
: > Ahuh, I'm sure you know exactly how the "first assassins" worked when you hit level 30 less than a week ago. xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD This account remembers times when LoL was still in beta This account remembers times when there was 1 NA server and my usual ping was 180~ playing the game back then Fun fact I was one of first that started doing ARAMs in custom. I've helped shaping and spreading the rules through playing and educating others how to play it. And actually the moment I joined custom ARAM I stopped playing SR almost at all. This account has about 9k games played, make it about 13k if you'd add customs if I remember correctly. And all of that made before hextech chests were added to the game. Just because I stopped playing when Rito decided to invent levels, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking, boy. If anything I know so much more about lol history than you. Those first assassins were twitch, shaco, evelynn and some even used to joke Garen (because he was brush wookie). Back then there was no such thing as 'divers'. The very first "diver" that came was diana. And even then 'diver' wasn't even invented as a term. You are uneducated fool, have a nice day :D
> [{quoted}](name=Saianna,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=000200050001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T04:09:34.730+0000) > > xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD > > This account remembers times when LoL was still in beta > This account remembers times when there was 1 NA server and my usual ping was 180~ playing the game back then > Fun fact I was one of first that started doing ARAMs in custom. I've helped shaping and spreading the rules through playing and educating others how to play it. And actually the moment I joined custom ARAM I stopped playing SR almost at all. > > This account has about 9k games played, make it about 13k if you'd add customs if I remember correctly. And all of that made before hextech chests were added to the game. > > Just because I stopped playing when Rito decided to invent levels, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking, boy. If anything I know so much more about lol history than you. > > Those first assassins were twitch, shaco, evelynn and some even used to joke Garen (because he was brush wookie). Back then there was no such thing as 'divers'. The very first "diver" that came was diana. And even then 'diver' wasn't even invented as a term. > > You are uneducated fool, have a nice day :D Fantastic, however, Twitch is not and never was an assassin. Evelynn and Shaco both had rather easy ways out with Eve's stun and Shaco's fear + ultimate. You really shouldn't be talking about current game balance when you *don't even play* the game. As someone who joined in late Season 1, I have just as much knowledge about them as you do, except my knowledge actually holds up today because I didn't quit, unlike yourself.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=00120000000000010001,timestamp=2019-02-22T01:59:30.507+0000) > >Go check to wiki. [91.87% without its passives](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Duskblade_of_Draktharr). By comparison: Luden's Echo is [104.09% gold efficient without its passives](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Luden%27s_Echo), and Infinity Edge is [111.76% gold efficient without its passive](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Infinity_Edge).
> [{quoted}](name=TotalJerk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=001200000000000100010000,timestamp=2019-02-22T04:12:00.344+0000) > > [91.87% without its passives](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Duskblade_of_Draktharr). By comparison: Luden's Echo is [104.09% gold efficient without its passives](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Luden%27s_Echo), and Infinity Edge is [111.76% gold efficient without its passive](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Infinity_Edge). Perhaps you should include the passive, since that is a part of the item, hmm?
Saianna (EUNE)
: 1st assassins had no waveclear and no escapes. They could go in, but they had to stick with it and either kill or die 2nd type of assassins still had no waveclear (with few exceptions, like Zed) but they had options to go in, kill and blink away 3rd type of assassins, have fucking everything and then some more. Sucction, please dude stop, you are embarrassing yourself.
> [{quoted}](name=Saianna,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=0002000500010000,timestamp=2019-02-22T03:22:32.051+0000) > > 1st assassins had no waveclear and no escapes. They could go in, but they had to stick with it and either kill or die > 2nd type of assassins still had no waveclear (with few exceptions, like Zed) but they had options to go in, kill and blink away > 3rd type of assassins, have fucking everything and then some more. > > Sucction, please dude stop, you are embarrassing yourself. Ahuh, I'm sure you know exactly how the "first assassins" worked when you hit level 30 less than a week ago. I don't even know why you're complaining when you don't even play this game. The game isn't balanced around your pre-30 normal games. Those "1st assassins" weren't, and are not assassins. They're divers. An entirely different class. All assassins have waveclear. Almost every champion has waveclear. Waveclear is not an assassin's weakness. If assassins had no waveclear they'd be unplayable because they'd be unable to roam.
: Gold efficient until Zed buys his dirk and then it's like you didnt buy an item at all. It's also only gold efficient when it's stacked.
> [{quoted}](name=Ahri Body Pillow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=0002000200010000,timestamp=2019-02-22T02:29:41.540+0000) > > Gold efficient until Zed buys his dirk and then it's like you didnt buy an item at all. It's also only gold efficient when it's stacked. ...? What? You do realise a Dirk gives 10 lethality right? Are you also away that Seeker's gives 30 armor before stacking? Did you know that 10 lethality doesn't "negate" 30 armor? If anything, the armor negates the lethality. Said lethality is providing around 7 or less armor pen at that level, and is completely overshadowed by the 30, soon 45 armor given by Seeker's. What the hell are you talking about? A single CLOTH ARMOR negates the lethality of an entire 3000 gold item.
: > [{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-02-21T17:21:54.394+0000) > > In order for zed to proc electrocute he needs to hit you with double q. Why do you even walk into the second one? Also probably more than half of the mages have spells with range bigger than 650, you can bully him too yknow > > Same "IWIN" r button makes your next position very telegraphed and anyone with a brain will cc you short while after landing. If Zed actually uses his R to dodge your stuff then you got outplayed. And yes, Zed ult multiples his damage, but his damage without ultimate is terrible. And you know what that does? Makes him ult reliant, which is good. And most of the assassins have a way in-way out. Examples. Kha E reset+R. Kata E resets. Evelynn R. Talon E. > > because a simple tournament which consists only streamers is a accurate view of balance. No one else could kill Revenge's Riven because... they were inferior players to Revenge. Also Zed is an assassin with biggest outplay potential in the class. > > Mages can start {{item:2033}} yknow. Pro players do it all the time. And i recently played Gragas mid vs Zed with electrocute, after eating his WEQ+electrocute i lost like 30% of my hp, not 50%. > > And mages job is to hardshove him and don't let him close the gap. 650 isn't that much of a range, most of the mages can waveclear from away. Also, wooo, assassin have a kill pressure on mage after poking him once. HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN, ASSASSINS SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO KILL ANYONE > > Well yes, Zed can lasthit easily. So what? Different champions have different strengths and weaknesses. > > > Overall you're too biased vs Zed to talk rational. Just think a bit if Zed is TRULY that good, and ask yourself how often Zed loses/wins a game. - He has the highest win rate of any midlane assassin in Plat+. Just because assassins in general are not doing great in organized teamplay like pro tournaments does not mean Zed needed buffs while Akali is sitting at a 39% WR and Diana at 47%. - Hitting the double Q is not hard when the shadow E SLOWS YOU. Does Ahri has a slow to land her charm? No, and it has a longer travel and activation time than Zed's shadow E which does damage of his own on top. Does Lux get help to land her binding? No, and if she misses it she does no damage whatsoever, on top of it being a much longer cd than just Q's alone. Talon's Rake not only has less AD scaling than Zed's Q, but it has a 33% longer cd on top and way more counterplay built into it. - What a joke that you would call Talon's E an escape in a TF unless the ADC/supp is literally hugging a wall. Talon has a 575 max range on Q, so he needs to blow ult to even close that range and as soon as he hits that combo he is revealed, at which point he dies in a single mage spell rotation because he is that squishy. Fizz has to use his E to close distance as well or apply kill pressure, which means he also doesn't get an escape. Katarina only gets an E reset upon a kill, which isn't even guaranteed and she's open to retaliation until then. Zed only waits 0.5 secs to be able to swap out and most Zed players buy Edge of night because the spell shield gives that buffer to swap out safely and not get CC'd right out of ult. - "his damage without ult is terrible". You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. LL Stylish's Zed 100-30% a fed Sivir with only E+auto, not landing a single Q. Zed in mid to late game can kill most mages and ADC's even without ult, and he does so because most mages will buy Zhonyas anyways to wait out his ult (only to eat a double/triple Q as they're coming out of stasis, being stationary and all). - They weren't just streamers, every single assassin in there was challenger level. KatEvolved and Yamikaze as assassins even had far more LP on their Katarina and Talon and they couldn't even make it past first rounds because both Katarina and Talon completely get shit on by poke/CC mages and in teamfights where being in melee for more than 3 seconds is suicide thanks to the damage bruisers+ adc's are putting out. KatEvolved has repeatedly beat LL Stylish's Zed in early lane only for it to later not matter in mid and late game because Zed's scaling is so dumb that even when behind in kills can later outduel Katarina and Talon even with one level below them. Zed is the Yasuo of assassins. None of the other assassins being better than Revenge my ass, the other assassins were better ranked than LL Stylish, the difference being Zed can do damage from range and swap out to kite Riven whereas a Talon eats a stun and gets dumpstered if he stays in melee range of the Riven which is the only way he can do damage, and same goes to Katarina whereas the majority of Zed's damage is ranged, he has multiple escape tools, and has a Pantheon passive on top for when his targets get low. - Mages who start corrupting pot have zero kill pressure in lane and will lose on trades against any assassin or enemy mage starting another item. Ignite itself completely nullifies the benefit of corrupting pot for the inevitable lv2-4 all in's that happen all the time in lane. Maybe it works for a totally passive champ like Vladimir or Malzahar who just wants to farm and recover from poke, but most mages won't. And mages shoving Zed into tower won't do a damn thing because Zed will easily get last hits under tower from his passive until he's lv3-4 by which point he has far greater kill pressure. Shuriken is the same range as most mage spells and with shadows Zed actually has the greatest effective range of any "caster". - "Different champions have different strength and weaknesses". LOL, he has all the strength of an assassin but none of their weaknesses (far shorter range). Katarina has longer baseline CD's than Zed on her main offensive tools (Zed's Shuriken is a 6 sec cd, among the lowest cd's of any assassin skills), Talon has mana costs, while Zed has much more rapidly generating energy which outlasts mana users in lane and he has much more range than either Katarina or Talon to contend with mages, on top of an Annie passive. And to top it off, he's the best scaling assassin only rivaled by Fizz and Akali (who was gutted), and both of those are AP champs with far inferior items compared to AD assassins while both Talon and Katarina fall off hard, especially Talon.
> [{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-21T18:08:51.919+0000) > > - He has the highest win rate of any midlane assassin in Plat+. Just because assassins in general are not doing great in organized teamplay like pro tournaments does not mean Zed needed buffs while Akali is sitting at a 39% WR and Diana at 47%. > > - Hitting the double Q is not hard when the shadow E SLOWS YOU. Does Ahri has a slow to land her charm? No, and it has a longer travel and activation time than Zed's shadow E which does damage of his own on top. Does Lux get help to land her binding? No, and if she misses it she does no damage whatsoever, on top of it being a much longer cd than just Q's alone. Talon's Rake not only has less AD scaling than Zed's Q, but it has a 33% longer cd on top and way more counterplay built into it. > > - What a joke that you would call Talon's E an escape in a TF unless the ADC/supp is literally hugging a wall. Talon has a 575 max range on Q, so he needs to blow ult to even close that range and as soon as he hits that combo he is revealed, at which point he dies in a single mage spell rotation because he is that squishy. Fizz has to use his E to close distance as well or apply kill pressure, which means he also doesn't get an escape. Katarina only gets an E reset upon a kill, which isn't even guaranteed and she's open to retaliation until then. Zed only waits 0.5 secs to be able to swap out and most Zed players buy Edge of night because the spell shield gives that buffer to swap out safely and not get CC'd right out of ult. > > - "his damage without ult is terrible". You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. LL Stylish's Zed 100-30% a fed Sivir with only E+auto, not landing a single Q. Zed in mid to late game can kill most mages and ADC's even without ult, and he does so because most mages will buy Zhonyas anyways to wait out his ult (only to eat a double/triple Q as they're coming out of stasis, being stationary and all). > > - They weren't just streamers, every single assassin in there was challenger level. KatEvolved and Yamikaze as assassins even had far more LP on their Katarina and Talon and they couldn't even make it past first rounds because both Katarina and Talon completely get shit on by poke/CC mages and in teamfights where being in melee for more than 3 seconds is suicide thanks to the damage bruisers+ adc's are putting out. > > KatEvolved has repeatedly beat LL Stylish's Zed in early lane only for it to later not matter in mid and late game because Zed's scaling is so dumb that even when behind in kills can later outduel Katarina and Talon even with one level below them. > > Zed is the Yasuo of assassins. None of the other assassins being better than Revenge my ass, the other assassins were better ranked than LL Stylish, the difference being Zed can do damage from range and swap out to kite Riven whereas a Talon eats a stun and gets dumpstered if he stays in melee range of the Riven which is the only way he can do damage, and same goes to Katarina whereas the majority of Zed's damage is ranged, he has multiple escape tools, and has a Pantheon passive on top for when his targets get low. > > - Mages who start corrupting pot have zero kill pressure in lane and will lose on trades against any assassin or enemy mage starting another item. Ignite itself completely nullifies the benefit of corrupting pot for the inevitable lv2-4 all in's that happen all the time in lane. Maybe it works for a totally passive champ like Vladimir or Malzahar who just wants to farm and recover from poke, but most mages won't. > > And mages shoving Zed into tower won't do a damn thing because Zed will easily get last hits under tower from his passive until he's lv3-4 by which point he has far greater kill pressure. > > Shuriken is the same range as most mage spells and with shadows Zed actually has the greatest effective range of any "caster". > > - "Different champions have different strength and weaknesses". LOL, he has all the strength of an assassin but none of their weaknesses (far shorter range). Katarina has longer baseline CD's than Zed on her main offensive tools (Zed's Shuriken is a 6 sec cd, among the lowest cd's of any assassin skills), Talon has mana costs, while Zed has much more rapidly generating energy which outlasts mana users in lane and he has much more range than either Katarina or Talon to contend with mages, on top of an Annie passive. > > And to top it off, he's the best scaling assassin only rivaled by Fizz and Akali (who was gutted), and both of those are AP champs with far inferior items compared to AD assassins while both Talon and Katarina fall off hard, especially Talon. "LL Stylish's Zed 100-30% a fed Sivir with only E+auto, not landing a single Q. " Agree with a decent bit of what you said, but just wanted to point out that this isn't really the champion himself. It's an auto attack plus an ability that does the same or less than an auto attack. I'd say that's more a product of dusk + runes. Nothing in Zed's kit was used here except his E, which I'm sure most people agree is a pretty shitty ability. If he's doing 70% of her hp in essentially two autos I think there's a problem with overall damage, or he was surely 5 levels up.
: Zed isnt trading if they have seekers. He’s shoving them in without interacting. With only seekers the vast majority of mages will have to back every 2.5 waves.
> [{quoted}](name=JamesTheMage15,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=0002000700000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T02:07:27.854+0000) > > Zed isnt trading if they have seekers. He’s shoving them in without interacting. > > With only seekers the vast majority of mages will have to back every 2.5 waves. Fantastic! Do you notice how mages could sustain just fine before Chapter existed? They continue sustaining just fine without! Watch your mana and use it appropriately. If he's not even stepping up to contest the wave, then you've already won If he is, go for trades while he's clearing the wave. This works for every champion. If you're unable to clear as quickly then it's best to use your abilities on the enemy rather than the wave, since it'll be going under your tower regardless. As soon as you scrounge up enough money for a Chapter, you win. Zed's fate is sealed and he nearly auto loses the game by that point. He has 5 minutes before your Seeker's to kill you, then another 5 before Chapter to try and roam. Anything past that, he needs to sacrifice two or more waves to get a roam off, with you potentially following right behind him with twice as much power due to Seeker's.
: this entire comment is meme central Seeker's is and has been a garbage item for a looooong time. And Zed's early game is not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be. Also Zed was viable before these buffs.
> [{quoted}](name=Ahri Body Pillow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-02-21T17:42:15.185+0000) > > this entire comment is meme central > > Seeker's is and has been a garbage item for a looooong time. And Zed's early game is not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be. Also Zed was viable before these buffs. Zed was only viable in mid-low elo before these buffs, because it's the only place where people don't use the tools given to them to counter him. Seeker's is a fantastic item, and the most gold efficient in the entire game. Go look it up some time.
: Seeker's has been one of the worst items in the AP roster for months or even years now and you compare it to dirk, an item who basically counters it?
> [{quoted}](name=PaffWasTaken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2019-02-21T19:07:27.476+0000) > > Seeker's has been one of the worst items in the AP roster for months or even years now and you compare it to dirk, an item who basically counters it? In reverse actually. Lethality is for penetrating base armor. Your 1100 gold Seeker's negates 9000 gold of lethality items, reducing them to nothing more than bonus AD and passives. Please look at things properly before making a judgement like this.
: yeah, mid was kayle's true best lane
> [{quoted}](name=ZackTheWaffleMan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xOeFsaBK,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-02-21T19:24:43.315+0000) > > yeah, mid was kayle's true best lane Whilst I agree that they shouldn't have doubled down on her strengths and weaknesses, omitting the rageblade interaction for your argument is pretty low, considering how completely core it is for her kit. You can't just pick and choose which facts are correct based on whether or not they suit your argument You're a person, not a News Network.
: Seeker's isn't efficient until you get stacks on it. When you first buy it it has the same stats as its components. It takes time to get those stacks, so you can't just say it's super efficient and call it a day. Rod of Ages is efficient too, once it gets some stacks.
> [{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=00020004,timestamp=2019-02-21T19:33:12.724+0000) > > Seeker's isn't efficient until you get stacks on it. When you first buy it it has the same stats as its components. It takes time to get those stacks, so you can't just say it's super efficient and call it a day. Rod of Ages is efficient too, once it gets some stacks. This is true, however, it doesn't take 10 minutes to stack up like RoA does. It's efficient after a single wave of minions is killed and only gets better. Two and a half minutes later it's fully stacked and you're a "squishy" with over 110 armor before 10 minutes.
Saianna (EUNE)
: > but these come at a hefty cooldown cost and remove his only mobility and cc for 24 seconds. an assassin with wave clear AND multi-tool escape. I'm sorry but it's still kinda too much for an assassin with Zeds carry potential late game.
> [{quoted}](name=Saianna,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=00020005,timestamp=2019-02-21T21:01:51.339+0000) > > an assassin with wave clear AND multi-tool escape. I'm sorry but it's still kinda too much for an assassin with Zeds carry potential late game. It's not too much, and that's why he was buffed. Every assassin in this game has wave clear and an escape. Hell, almost every CHAMPION has wave clear and an escape.
: That's a bald-faced goddamn lie.
> [{quoted}](name=TotalJerk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=0012000000000001,timestamp=2019-02-21T21:53:09.327+0000) > > That's a bald-faced goddamn lie. It's actually not a lie. It's around 170-180% or something. Go check to wiki. It's the most gold efficient item in league.
: If they buy seekers first you just permashove them in with your resourceless massive waveclear. Once you get a dirk it takes you 3-4 seconds to kill non-cannon waves and your combo will be back up for the next wave. They’ll be down at least 30 cs by the time they get lost chapter. Trust me, zed has more options than just killing the enemy outright.
> [{quoted}](name=JamesTheMage15,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=00020007,timestamp=2019-02-22T01:27:16.854+0000) > > If they buy seekers first you just permashove them in with your resourceless massive waveclear. Once you get a dirk it takes you 3-4 seconds to kill non-cannon waves and your combo will be back up for the next wave. They’ll be down at least 30 cs by the time they get lost chapter. Trust me, zed has more options than just killing the enemy outright. Not quite. With a Seeker's, Zed loses every trade rather hard. With proper mana management you can do just fine.
B3Prof (NA)
: Kat has similar and worse problems, where's her buff at?
> [{quoted}](name=B3Prof,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-02-21T09:11:42.949+0000) > > Kat has similar and worse problems, where's her buff at? Not sure. She deserves one as well. So do many other champions. Why did it take one and a half years for Zed to get his? Who knows.
Zezilian (EUNE)
: He is too strong, when range abilities without items takes 1/3 HP and it cost no mana.
> [{quoted}](name=Zezilian,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UNY3sRA1,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-21T08:45:13.689+0000) > > He is too strong, when range abilities without items takes 1/3 HP and it cost no mana. He is not too strong. I'm not sure whether you're joking or not.
: I think {{champion:222}} {{champion:22}} {{champion:15}} being meta is generally healthier for the game than certain other common marksmen picks, {{champion:236}} {{champion:119}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:21}}, so I am hesitant to suggest nerfing them directly. You have to consider who would rise to top tier in their place if they were nerfed. Marksmen as a class might be over-buffed right now. I'd say nerf {{item:3031}} a little bit, but leave defensive marksmen items strong {{item:3046}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3080}} so that their survivability isn't hurt. Riot could nerf {{item:3031}} a lot and it would still remain viable if not core on many marksmen. It's a good place to take oppressive strength out of the class while encouraging marksman build diversity.
> [{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aqipeEAJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-21T03:59:21.016+0000) > > I think {{champion:222}} {{champion:22}} {{champion:15}} being meta is generally healthier for the game than certain other common marksmen picks, {{champion:236}} {{champion:119}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:21}}, so I am hesitant to suggest nerfing them directly. You have to consider who would rise to top tier in their place if they were nerfed. Marksmen as a class might be over-buffed right now. > > I'd say nerf {{item:3031}} a little bit, but leave defensive marksmen items strong {{item:3046}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3080}} so that their survivability isn't hurt. Riot could nerf {{item:3031}} a lot and it would still remain viable if not core on many marksmen. It's a good place to take oppressive strength out of the class while encouraging marksman build diversity. Though I think Sivir is also a terribly unhealthy champion with the new PD, the others are great. Having a meta with Jinx/Ashe/Draven/Jhin or something would be lovely. ADCs would have fair counterplay for once, and not stealth every single second! That'd be the day.
Saianna (EUNE)
: Her 16lvl true damage is just powercreep "to secure the win". It's a mechanic to force the match conclusion. Anyone saying TD is fine and she needs it is delusional and definitely affected by damage powercreep. She didn't need it before, she does not need it now. She can be balanced without it.... But it wouldn't be as flashy.
> [{quoted}](name=Saianna,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xOeFsaBK,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-21T06:08:20.785+0000) > > Her 16lvl true damage is just powercreep "to secure the win". It's a mechanic to force the match conclusion. > Anyone saying TD is fine and she needs it is delusional and definitely affected by damage powercreep. > She didn't need it before, she does not need it now. She can be balanced without it.... But it wouldn't be as flashy. To be fair, the new Kayle probably has quite a bit less dps than before due to the other utility she's getting. She's also no longer going to have a reliance on Rageblade, or any real interaction with it beyond her minor on-hit damage. The true damage is a little annoying for sure, and I'm not sure whether or not she'll take the new Conqueror, but honestly most games nobody hits level 16 anyway.
: sounds like a familiar playstyle to a few champions, wonder who..... {{champion:45}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:16}}
> [{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xOeFsaBK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-21T01:57:39.924+0000) > > sounds like a familiar playstyle to a few champions, wonder who..... > > {{champion:45}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:16}} Veigar is ranged and actually has trade potential into most lanes, Nasus only has to wait until level 6 to win, Yi isn't even a fucking laner, nor does he have to wait until 6 to trade even if you DO take him into a lane. Soraka is just a giant mega cancer in general, but again, no. You're totally able to trade as Soraka pre-6.
Zezilian (EUNE)
: Why Zed got buffed ?
He was buffed so he can escape a certain situation which is forced onto him in most games. Assuming both players are decent, Zed will have to concede early lane. He has the tools to pressure waves and to poke, but these come at a hefty cooldown cost and remove his only mobility and cc for 24 seconds. After early laning phase is over and both champions have backed, Zed will return with a Dirk, and the enemy with a Seeker's. This is where it gets worse. Seeker's is a crazily gold efficient item. Although buying it means the enemy mid laner is delaying their other core items like Lost Chapter, it essentially completely denies any threat of Zed's all in. After that point, all a Zed can do is try to hit all his abilities during short trades, while hoping he can dodge all of the enemy's. He has a small opportunity to roam before the enemy buys a Lost Chapter on their 2nd back, but if this opportunity is missed then the champion is relegated to afk farming sidelanes, hoping the enemy top laner is behind enough for him to win a duel to get back into the game. Zed can be very oppressive when ahead, but it's extremely difficult for him to actually get ahead without the enemy disrespecting him or making constant, major mistakes. I can't say for sure whether Zed being viable is a healthy thing for the game, but considering Zoe and Yasuo are both even better, I can't imagine Riot has much problem with Zed anymore. Fortunately the changes actually nerf him just slightly in low elo, where he's doing fine, and are a sizable buff in higher elos, where he was struggling. Hopefully the buffs don't push him over the edge in either elo.
: No champion should be able to Litterally cast every ability in one animation. She has low cooldowns a lot of cc a low cooldown shield and even her ult is on a low cooldown. All of her abilities are aoe too so she aoe one shots an entire team while being tank and can still fight after cause all her abilities will be back up.
> [{quoted}](name=Shiroe Okazaki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zp5yRAxZ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-02-20T15:43:36.046+0000) > > No champion should be able to Litterally cast every ability in one animation. She has low cooldowns a lot of cc a low cooldown shield and even her ult is on a low cooldown. All of her abilities are aoe too so she aoe one shots an entire team while being tank and can still fight after cause all her abilities will be back up. Although I hate Riven and do agree she's rather busted, she can't cast every ability in one animation. Also, quite a lot of champions CAN cast every, or almost every ability in one animation.
: Genuine question: do you think Steven Universe (the character) is a 2-dimensional character?
> [{quoted}](name=DeathBurs7,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0IEctYqf,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2019-02-19T20:15:18.716+0000) > > Genuine question: do you think Steven Universe (the character) is a 2-dimensional character? That entire show is nothing but pandering to a specific community. A community who shares a lot with the undertale community, funnily enough.
: She really didnt need it at all, just overloading as usual on new reworks. Her ult also didnt need an aoe nuke into it aswell.
> [{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=23FXnTxE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-19T19:35:40.489+0000) > > She really didnt need it at all, just overloading as usual on new reworks. > > Her ult also didnt need an aoe nuke into it aswell. She's actually pretty basic. I wouldn't call her overloaded at all. She needed to be more complex than the original or nobody would play her lol
wolvius (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eternal Torment,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=PKbpZuEe,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-18T12:51:50.404+0000) > > Ranked from least to highest > > - A star > > - A Neutron Star > > - A black Hole > > - That yas who can't see how he is feeding ≥ A Shonen Anime's main protagonists. > > - "Vayne ult CD refund will change nothing, you can still burst her" Fixed that for you
> [{quoted}](name=wolvius,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=PKbpZuEe,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-02-18T17:20:41.168+0000) > > Fixed that for you "You can still burst a champion you literally can't click on"
: I feel like "mental boom" loses more games than "feeders".
Actually there's one more thing that loses games at a high rate. Hint: It's the reason we call it "Mental boom" and not something that actually makes sense grammatically.
Seth L9 (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v9B9ybLd,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-16T07:54:13.763+0000) > > You must've been really tired to have a reaction time over 1.75 seconds. Passive aggressiveness aside, no, I got hit by one Ez auto, backed off and then Karth hit a Q+Ez Q+Thresh flay. I'm just surprised Karth Q popped me that hard.
> [{quoted}](name=Seth L9,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v9B9ybLd,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-16T10:09:19.211+0000) > > Passive aggressiveness aside, no, I got hit by one Ez auto, backed off and then Karth hit a Q+Ez Q+Thresh flay. I'm just surprised Karth Q popped me that hard. It didn't. You got hit by two Karthus Q's.
Seth L9 (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v9B9ybLd,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-02-16T04:37:00.937+0000) > > Well, no you didn't. It was two Q's, and I'd hardly call that instant. If you're even getting hit by two isolated Q's as Yasuo (Who also happens to be totally broken right now), IDK what to say. Maybe spam E more often. I legitimately couldn't react to my death, it was that fast. There's a reason why I was laughing so hard while I was in a call with my friend lmao.
You must've been really tired to have a reaction time over 1.75 seconds.
Seth L9 (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v9B9ybLd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-15T13:57:59.995+0000) > > You have 82 magic resistance. Wall of Pain reduces this to 70. Void Staff takes it down to 42. Sorcs and Morello take this down further, to 9. 9 magic resistance reduces his damage by 10%. > > If Karthus had 1000 AP in this situation, he would be dealing 260 + 600 damage, (860) to you with a single Q. Factoring in magic resist, 774. > > It's safe to say that a Karthus with 3 items did not have 1000 AP. You're lying. Stop. > > Not counting runes, Karthus had 80 (Runic Echoes) + 70 (Morellonomicon) + 120 (Deathcap) + 40 (Blasting Wand) + 20 (Amplifying Tome) Ability Power. This equals 330, further increased to 462. > > He would've been dealing 260 + 277 damage, or 537. After MR, 483. He most definitely didn't do what you're saying he did. > > If you look closer, it even says "Mixed damage" while Karthus Q is entirely magic, meaning that the recap is probably failing to do its job entirely. Well I died instantly either way soooo w/e. Damage in general still feels absurd in this game.
Well, no you didn't. It was two Q's, and I'd hardly call that instant. If you're even getting hit by two isolated Q's as Yasuo (Who also happens to be totally broken right now), IDK what to say. Maybe spam E more often.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jMTvej6I,comment-id=0002000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-16T03:14:32.201+0000) > > We weren't even counting his other abilities, but even if we do, they're not dealing 1k damage without a full lethality build. > > You mentioned "70% true damage point and click nuke". Not sure why you'd change that and bring in his Q and "armor". I’m accounting for the adc armor to make your argument strong. And no garen is pressing r before using q. That’s stupid.
My argument is that Garen does not have a "70% true damage point and click nuke". Also, Garen's ult is never affected by armor because it doesn't deal physical damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jMTvej6I,comment-id=00020000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-15T11:03:05.428+0000) > > I don't know if you're trolling or just don't know what "2000" means. > > ADCs have a base health of around 2100 at level 18, which is around 2.5-3 items plus boots generally. > > If Garen has rank 3 ult, 90% of the time his target is going to be somewhere between 15 and 18. Now account for the 1000 damage that comes from his triforce proc q. Reduce r by like maybe 40% for armor (that no adc can afford) 600 damage. You’re nice 2000 hp Adc is down to 1400 and is missing a large chunk of health.
We weren't even counting his other abilities, but even if we do, they're not dealing 1k damage without a full lethality build. You mentioned "70% true damage point and click nuke". Not sure why you'd change that and bring in his Q and "armor".
: If your bot lane gave first blood through an early invade and the jungler isn't getting them back into the game as they fall behind in laning, the game IS over by 5 minutes. That's how stupid all these ADC buffs have been. half the top ladder players are ADC because the bot lane that gets ahead early wins the game, period.
To be fair it was like the before too. Adcs were weaker at one item sure, but not at two, which is what they'd all accelerate too if they got plating and tower.
Seth L9 (OCE)
: So when are we nerfing Karthus?
You have 82 magic resistance. Wall of Pain reduces this to 70. Void Staff takes it down to 42. Sorcs and Morello take this down further, to 9. 9 magic resistance reduces his damage by 10%. If Karthus had 1000 AP in this situation, he would be dealing 260 + 600 damage, (860) to you with a single Q. Factoring in magic resist, 774. It's safe to say that a Karthus with 3 items did not have 1000 AP. You're lying. Stop. Not counting runes, Karthus had 80 (Runic Echoes) + 70 (Morellonomicon) + 120 (Deathcap) + 40 (Blasting Wand) + 20 (Amplifying Tome) Ability Power. This equals 330, further increased to 462. He would've been dealing 260 + 277 damage, or 537. After MR, 483. He most definitely didn't do what you're saying he did. If you look closer, it even says "Mixed damage" while Karthus Q is entirely magic, meaning that the recap is probably failing to do its job entirely.
Rock MD (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=NocturnalSheild,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v9B9ybLd,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-02-15T06:27:37.571+0000) > > Wow...fucking karthus damage nerfs. All karthus has is damage... And? If he has too much of it, it's reasonable to nerf that damage.
But he doesn't. He just applies harvest well.
: Except early game, Karthus is only going to be using his ult to apply pressure to fights, or to quickscope a retreating low health target, whose likely exited the fight. Not a lot of folk are going to have those options early on, especially Lifesteal, Hex, or Hourglass, and their resources are bound to be blown from said fight.
This is true, however, in the early game Karthus can only ult like twice. Even if he uses it on CD I'm pretty sure he'll be hitting level 11 before he can use it a third time.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jMTvej6I,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-02-15T05:54:16.910+0000) > > I mean I'm not really sure how I can argue with someone who isn't able to calculate quarters. > > 425 is less than a quarter of 2000. At 70% health, that means you're on 1400, and missing 600. 40% of 600 is 240. So it's 425 + 240 then? So now you're even further off? Or are we in some world where 425 + 240 = 70% of 2000? Except no Adc is getting 2k hp before 6 items! Da fuq? When did adc becomes a pseudo tank?
I don't know if you're trolling or just don't know what "2000" means. ADCs have a base health of around 2100 at level 18, which is around 2.5-3 items plus boots generally. If Garen has rank 3 ult, 90% of the time his target is going to be somewhere between 15 and 18.
Lyxx (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=feintfiend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n3a3rlJN,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-11-19T10:33:25.476+0000) > > Looks like another buttblasted mage player > "Wow that squishy built full damage and killed me??!?!?! How is this allowed?!?!?" > Meanwhile jax and Irelia kill you with a full rotation and 3k health. > Meanwhile seekers armguard alone absolutely cucks AD assasins > {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} It really doesn't because the lethality items really nullify the armor later on.
Really old post but... No! No it doesn't. 1100 gold seeker's nullifies the entirety of 9k gold on lethality items. : D
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jMTvej6I,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-15T02:13:51.152+0000) > > 425 base is less than 1/4 of your health. If you're at 70% health it'll do 425 + 250 lol Your math is off sir. And I said 1/3.
I mean I'm not really sure how I can argue with someone who isn't able to calculate quarters. 425 is less than a quarter of 2000. At 70% health, that means you're on 1400, and missing 600. 40% of 600 is 240. So it's 425 + 240 then? So now you're even further off? Or are we in some world where 425 + 240 = 70% of 2000?
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BALukR4k,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-14T15:03:33.558+0000) > > Aatrox has 1 dash, and it's tiny. You're correct on Sylas. Neeko has a short speed boost and a .5 second invisibility. > > Neeko is totally immobile. Pyke too he's fairly recent
We shouldn't forget about all the non mobile champs released in the past few years. Recent releases have been just as mobile as champs in season 4/5/6, excepting the reworks on akali and irelia since Riot regrets them both
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jMTvej6I,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-02-14T09:14:00.557+0000) > > I do hate his ult as well, but you have to admit it's not quite 70%. If you’re an adc it is. XD 425 base is almost 1/3 of your health. Then it does 40% missing hp or some shit.
425 base is less than 1/4 of your health. If you're at 70% health it'll do 425 + 250 lol
iDarkWind (EUW)
: You must be joking AHAHAH
It's true. A very large amount of champions have shields, heals, untargetabilities, or something at the very least to negate Karthus ult. A majority of the ones who don't are going to be building hourglass/hex/lifesteal rather early on, and most of the remainder are bruisers/tanks who don't care if it hits them anyway. It falls off hard if the enemy is smart, despite the damage scaling very well. It can't hurt you if it never hits you.
: Ah you're doing what he's doing now. > Vayne is terribly unhealthy, no rework says who? I will say she's strong due to the unnecessary buff a few patches ago, but what part of her is bad for game health? > Yi is equally unhealthy (As much as I love him), yet no rework for him either Sounds like an opinion to me. > They just made Akali, and look how wonderful that champion was for the game? That was DUE to a rework that failed to bring her from unhealthy to healthy. This actually proves my point quite nicely. She WAS unhealthy, so they reworked her. Now they have dumpstered her until they can find a way to make her healthy. See where I'm going with this? A champ being strong =/= a champ being unhealthy
Her compete disregard for all melee champions' existence post two items is a pretty big one. Otherwise it'd be her permastealth that they just added for no reason despite it being terrible for the game and completely lacking counterplay. You can't counter every fact you don't like with "Bruh that's just like your opinion". That's not how facts work. Kha'Zix is unhealthy due to his inherent lack of counterplay beyond "always share xp and never use any trinket except blue"
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BALukR4k,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-14T05:37:31.736+0000) > > To be fair, aside from Akali and Irelia, most of the new champion releases have been rather immobile compared to the ones in season 3/4/5 Aatrox had 2 dashed, sylas is super mobile, neeko is fast and invisible....
Aatrox has 1 dash, and it's tiny. You're correct on Sylas. Neeko has a short speed boost and a .5 second invisibility. Neeko is totally immobile.
Paxon (EUW)
: Yasuo is op with the new crititems? Tryndamere just hit rock bottom
Are you saying he has a 26% winrate late game? Even in the site you linked, he doesn't. It's 44.68%.
: Jhin 4 Infinity Edge working?
He needs RFC, but besides that, yes, it can work. It's really inefficient though. He'll take ER after it gets a buff.
: Sure. So long as the 70% hp true damage point and click execute gets removed.
I do hate his ult as well, but you have to admit it's not quite 70%.
Seth L9 (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=haaaaaaalp,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NIkMUEGv,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-12T12:09:23.827+0000) > > Because he has a healthy base kit. He is a mana based melee champion with reasonable cast times short range no cc and clear drawbacks on each of his spells. The only thing which would potentially cause a problem is resetting mobility which is slower than kat who has also had reserving mobility in the past. He never needed a large rework, just shuffling around his upgrade mechanic which was not well thought out on release. No CC? NO CC? Did you not read any of the patch notes? Did you not read his passive? Trust me, Kha'zix has CC. Reasonable cast times? He doesn't even have any cast times besides tiny ones on Q and W, E is instant. Resettable mobility is indeed an issue, and the thing is....even old Kat had restrictions. Kha'zix still to this day only has one restriction, travel time. Apart from that he can use his jump liberally whenever he wants, it's just the however he wants that matters. Kat isn't even comparable to Kha'zix in this aspect since Kat's Shunpo is still to targeted to this day. "He never needed a large rework, just shuffling around his upgrade mechanic which was not well thought out on release." His passive and Q definitely need reworks. They're the unhealthiest part of his kit and yet they haven't been significantly changed outside of number changes. Hell, his passive was even mega-buffed. Oh, and then we get to his "Evolution" concept, which has honestly **never** been balanced outside of E which is the only somewhat balanced evolution, then you have one of the other 3 being broken until Riot fixes the one and breaks another. Since release this entire concept has been broken. tl;dr Q and passive are broken, W, E and R are fine (although stealth in general needs another rework for counterplay) and the "Evolution" part of his kit is fundamentally broken. ------------------------------------------ Also, Kat had a healthy base kit before her rework and yet she still got reworked, so I'd say there's certainly room for Kha'zix on the rework train.
A single Isolated Kha'Zix Q has 10% less of a bonus AD Ratio than a triple Zed Q. Just thought it was a funny piece of info.
: All of this is just your opinion. What objectively points to him being unhealthy? The answer is simple: He has not been reworked because he's not unhealthy. That's the only logical reason. You're looking for a conspiracy to fit your claim instead of reevaluating your claim. Work smarter, not harder. Edit: I see the denizens of gameplay smelled me defending an assassin and had to intervene, how unexpected.
Vayne is terribly unhealthy, no rework Yi is equally unhealthy (As much as I love him), yet no rework for him either They just made Akali, and look how wonderful that champion was for the game? Riot aren't above mistakes, lol.
: Riot gutted them all with their changes last season. And people still say ADCS are fine lol.
ADCs are currently fine. If anything, they've taken over the game again. This is *just* Xayah, lol.
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Sucction

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