Meddler (NA)
: He'll get some work still, whether as a larger balance change or as one of the smaller number of larger functionality changes we'll still be doing. Will share details whenever I've got some to share.
Honestly at this point just give up on the current aatrox and just minirework him again. The current one is a lost cause due to pro play. Make him a actual close ranged juggernaut/bruiser that can swap between damage or sustain and actually has to commit to a fight instead of just poking and running away. Also just delete the revive (and the knockups), it was literally the worst part of aatrox and is too unbalanced for professional play leading to him becoming the new ryze.
d00mface (EUW)
: Aatrox, my favorite boy
Yeah he is in the same fucking hands as the one that got fucked to make this shit, that would never go wrong. Wait a second, look at the patch notes XD. Good luck lul he is going to get fucked just like the old one, infact he already is {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}} edit: oh no muh internet points Btw old aatrox was my favourite champ, don't trust riot with any champ you like they will just shit on you and leave you to rot
: > [{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MtOVo6zU,comment-id=00030003000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-06T20:31:08.118+0000) > > Balance is objective. Health is subjective. So health discussed and decided on by the wrong people will lead to bad results. Only their best performers who consistently produce very good results should go near health, and they should be paid even more. Balance on the other hand has less grey area, you either scale too much, too fast, too easily, or not enough. Balancing mechanics that have room for error that also give clear competitive advantages is basically impossible, and all you can do is just try your best. You can see what I am getting at. Balance really isn't objective. You can numerically have a "balanced" thing. It's incredibly difficult, yes, but it can be done. If I have an ability that has an exactly 50% chance to instantly win the game, it's perfectly balanced. (Thanos.png) From a health/gameplay standpoint, that feels fucking AWFUL however. You have a 50% chance to instantly lose with no way around it besides hoping you win the coin toss. Of course, there are other reasons why Aatrox was reworked as well. Since inception he has always had a small playerbase number (Under single digits) and most reworks are aimed at improving this. He was also beginning to show his age as a Season 4 champion, although Season 4 champs aren't _quite_ as bad as Season 1-3 in terms of age. He could still have used polish which he got. Either way, Aatrox had a rework coming for ages and it was just a little divine irony that his rework came _just_ as game systems favored him. (Guinsoos, Conq, lane-based meta, etc.)
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MtOVo6zU,comment-id=000300030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-07T00:05:02.418+0000) > > Balance really isn't objective. You can numerically have a "balanced" thing. It's incredibly difficult, yes, but it can be done. If I have an ability that has an exactly 50% chance to instantly win the game, it's perfectly balanced. (Thanos.png) From a health/gameplay standpoint, that feels fucking AWFUL however. You have a 50% chance to instantly lose with no way around it besides hoping you win the coin toss. > > Of course, there are other reasons why Aatrox was reworked as well. Since inception he has always had a small playerbase number (Under single digits) and most reworks are aimed at improving this. He was also beginning to show his age as a Season 4 champion, although Season 4 champs aren't _quite_ as bad as Season 1-3 in terms of age. He could still have used polish which he got. Either way, Aatrox had a rework coming for ages and it was just a little divine irony that his rework came _just_ as game systems favored him. (Guinsoos, Conq, lane-based meta, etc.) Aatrox had a gameplay update comming for ages that was never intended to be a vgu. The origional rework rickless did was pretty much what it was intended to be. This minirework was delayed for a while for reasons. However due to the sheer amount of powercreep that happend in the game the actual need for a rework died out but due to riots policy of not touching shit till its reworked aka poppy style aattox being trash became a meme. Fast forward and they eventually gave up on that policy and buffed him a few times and unsurprisingly he didnt break. Eventually the minirework happened and holy shit it was crap. They buffed the fuck out of it and it became sleeper due to the aatrox is shit meme till rageblade came out. Unfortunately riot had a couple of big brains that forgot the dangers scope creep and misunderstood why people wanted aatrox reworked. They found the character interesting but found him boring or weak to play similarly to how aurellion is viewed to the community. Riot in their brilliance decided they should just remake the character from scratch because people liked it (i can source this shit) This decision caused them to make their own shitty character and force it on aatrox and surprise surprise it didnt work and they realised they had to change the model and voice as well. Cue scope creep and all this shit had to be done meaning they couldn't change a ability once it was locked in. It got to the point where aatrox literally doesnt have joke lines because they fucked up and forgot them but couldnt add them back because time constraints. Eventually it was released and it was shat on because people wanted aatrox reworked not a fucking new character. Riot knew it too and thats why they added the banners back when they wouldn't even touch swains hair. So in the end he was not polished in any sense of the word, he was the worst release they ever did with them having to add shit even when he was on the live gameplay servers. Also 50% chance to win the game character is unbalanced as fuck because it removes player agency which no other character does, winrate does not equal balance.
: > [{quoted}](name=sagabeast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MtOVo6zU,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-10-06T01:40:43.109+0000) > > Watch when they gut your main champion and turn into something totally different I bet you will be bitching on the boards too buddy. I don't main shitty outdated champs lmao
> [{quoted}](name=gabetheguy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MtOVo6zU,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2018-10-06T18:23:59.296+0000) > > I don't main shitty outdated champs lmao Your most played in s7 was fucking tryndamere. Your most played this season is fucking nasus. "I don't main shitty outdated champs"???? {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
: > [{quoted}](name=dimiondo,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qAGAOAHv,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2018-08-13T18:37:09.589+0000) > > Only to be designed into a manaless lane bully who autowins lane and is frustrating to play against Like all lane bullies in the game? > while retaining the old problems being large amounts of sustain and a revive. That wasn't his problem. > kill his lore and background as well even though everyone liked it and was rated one of the most thematic champs in the game, confirmed by riot themselves. Great rework 10/10. Wtf?do you have a source? > But hey at least he isn't a stat check anymore because god forbid a character in this game rely on stats. A stat checker dosnt belong in this game as they offer no counterplay other than"get better stats than me".
No the sustain and revive were very much his problem lul, because thats is arguably what made him stat check, you had to kill him twice and he had a shit ton of sustain which meant you had to out dps his healing when fighting him. Unfortunately grievous wounds existed in this game and pretty much stopped the problem because it severely nuked his healing and that combined with armor countered him pretty well. Who likes playing against a lane bully. Who likes playing against a manaless lane bully. Who likes playing against a manaless lane bully that has sustain so you can't wear him down attacks from ranged abilities and spams the lane with them till he either wins the game or falls off like a rock. See a problem here. Also he was meant to be a juggernaut. A late game damage dealer similar to mord/urgot/garen etc. I actually followed aatrox the reason why the rework even started was morello hated his ass a patch or two after release because he had too much sustain. Due to this he was put up for a mini rework back in 2014, it wasn't intended to be a full gameplay update and it obviously wasn't needed but sure parrot the fuck out of everyone who says aatrox is bad design when he managed to not be a problem for around 5 years and even had a mini rework to fix a bunch of his problems. The source for one of the most thematic champs is a beyond the rift video talking about reworks with reav3s. Now for stats because this argument is dumb. Stat are the core of this game, the whole idea is getting gold, getting items(which give stats), beating enemy harder, winning game, it happens on all champions and is honestly a stupid argument in general. The people complain about counterplay when the freaking counterplay is not feeding your ass off in the first place and then trying to fight the guy who is obviously stronger than you. You try to 1v1 a 5/0 irellia as a 0/2 ivern. You die because she has more stats then you. You try and fight a 5/0 lee. You die because he has more stats than you. You try to fight a 5/0 maokai. Guess what you die because he has more stats than you. At a certain point you actually have to play with your team to beat people with better stats than you, you can't expect to fight a champion with more items than you 1v1 by "outplaying them". If you don't want stats to freaking influence the game go play bloody hots or some shit, but league for its entire existence has been about stats and will continue to be about stats till it dies.
: Because old aatrox had to get completely changed because his kit was terribly designed
Only to be designed into a manaless lane bully who autowins lane and is frustrating to play against while retaining the old problems being large amounts of sustain and a revive. Oh and it also has the problem that azir and has, where he will never be viable but not busted in pro play. Oh is that not enough, well got to kill his lore and background as well even though everyone liked it and was rated one of the most thematic champs in the game, confirmed by riot themselves. Great rework 10/10. But hey at least he isn't a stat check anymore because god forbid a character in this game rely on stats.
: > [{quoted}](name=dimiondo,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=NL3gU6fA,comment-id=000b000000010000,timestamp=2018-06-16T18:03:27.849+0000) > > Okay lets see why renekton is similar to the new aatrox > > -Once honourable warriors that fought for their respective nations(Not fully confirmed for aatrox but i would bet money on it) > Honourable? .....renekton was literally a savage warrior ( the butcher) of an imperialstic tyranical empire!And did their biding willingly! Aatrox on the other side seems to despise the tyranny of targon ( i will find a way to tear down the heavens and reveal you as fiends'') And while he once stood by their side fighting the void they ( for unknown reason ) betrayed him > -Locked away in a prison for ages Check > Again it was renektons choice (his plan) > -Now hate the world and seek vengeance for their imprisonment Check > Renekton hates his brother not ''the world'' ... Aatrox does not ''hate the world'' for no reason humans with the aid of the targonians commited genocide ! His kin was nearlye extinct..so yea the motivations are clearly different! > -frequently make quotes about bloodshed and carnage as well as wanting others to suffer as they have Check > Renekton is a crazy monster with no reason > -are god like beings that are incredibly powerful Check > > -are both insane (unless aatrox referring to himself in 3rd person is something else and he also mentions not knowing if he was corrupted by the void or not) > Being corrupted does not equals insanity .. aatrox chooses to be ''the enemy'' renekton is just xeraths puppet ! > -both are based in shurima Check > Aatrox has nothing to do with shurima aestheticaly,,,,,yes he may have ties with shurima but so does sivir and many more ,... > -both were commanders of their respective armies (unless they changed aatrox from being the leader but i doubt that one) > '' All hail pantheon ! '' ....at some point pantheon was in charge of aatrox !( aatrox once respected him) Also being the leader of an army is nto a character trait ...darius is a commander but that does not make him simmilar to rene or aatrox ..its like saying that ''oh they are magicians '' > -both want to die (renekton references being worried that he cannot die in his lore though this is not as concrete as the other ones) Check > aatrox seems to want to bring an end to all life including himself because he was corrupted beyond beleif by people that was once his allies "**Tricked into this existence**... False slave entrapped by endless life! I shall become a beast feeding on their destruction, and making them **lament my unholy birth**!" Rene doesnt have a motivation to say something like that ...again he is insane aatrox is not.. All in all what you present here are either elements that are not character defining ( place of origin , status ) or ones that further outline the differences of the two characters.. To sum up on the one side we have rene a savage beast that cares only for his butchering people...his unstable mind got even more twisted when in the prison that he choosed to locked himself into xerath ''helped'' him embrace the darkness of his soul....rene was never a hero and he paid the price of playing one! On the other hand we have aatrox a once holy warrior ... a protector of the universe that got betrayed by his own allies and witnessed his race go extinct...to top it all off his real body got desrtoyed and what was left of him got trapped into a prison,,,,,his only hope for escape? attaching himself to a human ...the same creature that is responsible for his predicament! Yea they are very simmilar..
Im sorry but i feel you have to refresh your renekton lore if you think that renekton was just a butcher. Yes thats what he became after he was tortured for centuries but he was clearly honorable beforehand and was a great general even though his methods were brutal. He sacrificed himself not once but twice for the betterment of others thinking that he would die each time. Also there was no previous weakness or darkness that xerath exploited he just overpowered him using time. After this he became a mad beast lusting for blood willing to kill all in between him and his revenge. Yet even then nasus believes that he is redeemable. He obviously hates the world judging by he constantly talks about killing shit and even has the everyone will suffer like i have which is ironically pretty close to aatroxs vo. Aatrox as far as we know also defends shurima as a godlike being except against the void instead of people. Based on his vo he believed himself to follow nobel ideas and was helping targon for whatever reason. However something happend which was likely him getting corrupted by the void and going insane and he was sealed in the blade during the darkin wars. Eventually he got out and now decimates the land seeming revenge against the targonians who wronged him by giving humans the ability to trap him in a blade. He thinks he is immortal only being able to die when everything else is dead. His vo is just as bloody as renektons and involves a ton of random slaughter lines. It hints that he was once a nobel creature but is now just a savage hunting for revenge just like renekton. So we got 2 characters that were both noble warriors at one point that fought for something they believed in and ended up sealed away only to be tortured for ages to eventually be freed. They then seek revenge against the ones they perceive trapped them in there being more than happy to kill everything in their path. They both wish to die and if the void corruption ends up true for aatrox they were both manipulated by a external entity to go insane. Still sounds similar to be honest. In fact aatrox could be a even greater savage than renekton was judging that as far as we know he didnt sacrifice shit and was captured and imprisoned in the blade by force. Though if he does sacrafice himself it just draws a bigger parallel between the characters.
: > [{quoted}](name=dimiondo,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=NL3gU6fA,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-06-16T16:49:22.622+0000) > > I chose to delete the comment because i realised that people would just downvote it because they like the new lore to the point where they would ignore the obvious freaking comparisons to renekton and sion. Maybe just maybe the reason people downvoted your comment was that you are short sighted and ironic.. you, like many others ,didnt even wait for aatroxes full story to judge him or riot .. >There was no point so i went fuck it i'm just going to get potentially flamed in this thread for no reason other than i agree with the guys original post. Did anyone insult you ? no ..did you insult anyone with your post? yes , you even continiue to do so by implying that we are not able to pick up THE ''similarities'' between aatrox and renekton while they are absolutely none...( i have explain that in a my previous post) Also the original post that you are defending was pretty insulting and melodramatic , i quote : '' This isnt a Rework, this is a puplic Execution of Old Aatrox'' sometimes even tolerance can be insulting ..... >Did i insult anyone? Nope. But hey don't worry mate obviously calling me out me for saying the guy didn't need to apologise and that aatrox's old lore shouldn't of been deleted to create anther character that ultimately is the same character archetype as rekenton is really showing how great these boards are and is "influencing the boards in a good way". > {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} Yea iam sorry for ''calling you out'' ..you have the noble cause of protecting the objectively inferior lore of the past by disregarding any positive **change**....i mean its fine if you want to beleive that aatrox turned from a stoic artisian of war that was vague, not because riot didnt had a firm grasp of the darkin concept yet ,but because it was poetic ,to a loud angry edgelord ....however you should then accept potential crtiticism for your swallow and superficial analysis ,as new aatrox is so much more than that ! {{sticker:sg-syndra}}
Okay lets see why renekton is similar to the new aatrox -Once honourable warriors that fought for their respective nations(Not fully confirmed for aatrox but i would bet money on it) -Locked away in a prison for ages Check -Now hate the world and seek vengeance for their imprisonment Check -frequently make quotes about bloodshed and carnage as well as wanting others to suffer as they have Check -are god like beings that are incredibly powerful Check -are both insane (unless aatrox referring to himself in 3rd person is something else and he also mentions not knowing if he was corrupted by the void or not) -both are based in shurima Check -both were commanders of their respective armies (unless they changed aatrox from being the leader but i doubt that one) -both want to die (renekton references being worried that he cannot die in his lore though this is not as concrete as the other ones) Check So how aren't they similar because it seems to me like they have a lot in common.
: Or maybe. Just maybe. Your point wasn't true and you avoided counter argument by running away AAAAAND like that you can play the victim card. Surely it is a way more mature answer.
I doubt you even saw the post tbh, the first one was just pointing out a ton of similarities to renektons character and said that the original poster didn't need to apologise. The second one was a reply to the guy who said garen was like darius, i said that the character was fine and i did not care that he was in the game but the fact that they deleted aatrox's character for it was bad. I then said it would be like if they reworked tryndamere a guy known for his anger to a loyal and devout character like garen. Those two posts are the "inciting hate" that the other guy brought up. I can dislike a change without hating on the person who changed it or believing that they are terrible people. I simply believe that the rework itself is bad because it fails to capture the original character and relates to characters more like renekton than the original aatrox. I literally only got rid of the posts because i went this is only going to start a pointless argument, though i guess that failed miserably.
: ***
I chose to delete the comment because i realised that people would just downvote it because they like the new lore to the point where they would ignore the obvious freaking comparisons to renekton and sion. There was no point so i went fuck it i'm just going to get potentially flamed in this thread for no reason other than i agree with the guys original post. Did i insult anyone? Nope. But hey don't worry mate obviously calling me out me for saying the guy didn't need to apologise and that aatrox's old lore shouldn't of been deleted to create anther character that ultimately is the same character archetype as rekenton is really showing how great these boards are and is "influencing the boards in a good way". {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: Hey I really sorry you feel this way. So I'll try and answer your questions. **On: The loss of old Aatrox. ** I know you loved this "old thing" and you're not alone. Everyone on the team knew Aatrox was loved by a very, very small but very, very loyal group of fans. Unfortunately, we also knew Aatrox's gameplay was problematic, he was difficult to balance, he was item reliant; his model, lore, and VO weren't up to modern standards. And all those elements had to be better interconnected. Would you rather have watched aatrox fall into total irrelevance-- an unsupported, unplayable, "Quit trolling bro" pick? _**He had to change.** _ Because change is necessary. But yes it is hard- (crap, I've now got grey hair and a unfun doctor's appointment tomorrow) But that same change, is a part of what makes League great and what makes it feel fresh. It sucks to see something you liked change. But that's just it.. Aatrox is not dead. He is not a dead wife. He changed. He is reborn-- yes different than he was-- but the good feeling you had playing him? **_That _**is what we were trying to keep--- not the voice, not the gameplay loop, not the visuals. ** _That feeling. _** It's abstract and yes It's a _bit_ different now but I honestly feel if you give him the 30 games it takes to begin to unlock how he really works- how he really _**feels**_- you'll begin to get this is still Aatrox. Perhaps even more Aatrox than the original Aatrox was _Because you can have joy in change and your memories both. _ **On: Gaston vs Mufasa . ** So this is easier Q to answer and a bit more technical. Basically a single line can not capture who someone is (Real or fictional) It is the variance, it is the subtext, it is what people want and how they go about getting it. Creating characters is what I am interested in as I am a writer (and VO director). But the timbre of the voice is not what makes a character-- it can define a performer (actor) sure. But I must choose the actor I can best capture the emotional truth of the character over the actor with a sexy voice every time. (Though if I can get both... sweeeet.) ==note this is not saying the original voice actor was bad-- just he wasn't right for the role. I get that it's hard to see how this is true and matches the previous paragraph -- but it's true. The goal was to make a more Aatrox, Aatrox. Maybe we didn't hit that goal for you. But I'm asking you, humbly, to give him a real shot. Fun fact to end with: Change. Knowing that change is traumatic and yet it also a part of our game-- is part of the reason I built that thematic into Zoe and Illaoi. It's true, I love building levels, irony, and subtext. Thanks for capturing your feelings calmly. WAAAARGHbobo
I do not know how to put this post into words so im sorry if i sound incoherent as aatrox and his lore was a large reason why i started to play this game. Aatrox was a character that had a dual nature that juxtaposed with itself and i feel like that is part of the reason why he was so thematically attractive to most of the player-base like aurellion is. Aatrox was a character that saved people from hopeless battles, turning the tides of war, saving lives a hero to many. Statues were built of him and he became part of history in almost every civilisation. Yet this was a facade to a darker truth, he was a character that delighted in conflict and would save people to cause further conflict down the line. He took pleasure in this, pleasure in tormenting men and turning them into monsters. The people he "saved" weren't really saved at all, instead they were dammed and led down a path they thought would make them heroes saviours of their people but in reality led them down a path of slaughter and violence. They were worshipped as heroes, saviours of their homes, families and people but they eventually learned the truth, that they were just monsters committing atrocities against others. He refers to tryndamere as his greatest creation, a man so bent by vengeance and anger that he dedicated his life just to get revenge. This goes into his VO which is the main complaint from many about this rework. All his lines were prompting people to fight, inspirational quotes and lines delivered in a deadpan voice. But all his lines took double meaning once you considered his lore and theme. He offers a chance at survival, a chance of being remembered as a great warrior of history, but you will only realise the cost far after you accepted it. His very name was arguably a pun on the word atrocity. He was a monster in every sense of the word. This combined with his sheer impact literally determining the fate of wars spiked a ton of interest and fan theories into what he was doing, why he was doing it. A picture of his head appeared on jax's splash and people got excited and made theories on what it meant. Then eventually it was removed and we were left in the dark. The new aatrox is far less subtle (the old one wasn't very subtle to begin with) then the old aatrox, constantly screaming that he will kill things, that he is eager to fight that he was betrayed and trapped. He is very blatant about the type of character he is and the fact that he now has a sympathetic past takes away from the monstrous personality the old aatrox used to have and humanises him. You are meant to feel sympathetic for the new aatrox, that he isn't just a loud mouthed guy that is 80% of his lines that just wants to kill people. Unless there is some major plot twist in the actual bio he is essentially renekton a character with a noble purpose that was driven to madness by pain and captivity and wants to take it out on the world and the ones that did it too him. Is this bad character design. No. His character is perfectly fine. But it is not the Aatrox we knew for the past 5 years, there is nothing remotely in common between the two characters other than they were skilled swordsman. And that blatant removal of a character that people theorised over for 5 years is the problem with this rework and frankly just makes it a huge disappointment. Was his kit stuffed yes. But the old aatrox could of easily fitted into the new lore without a personality or a background change, hell it could of been used to say the darkins were intentionally destabilising the world while they waited for their revenge, or that they were using the wars to build up power for the coming conflict. This disregard for how a character was in the past needs to stop. People enjoy characters just as much as their gameplay and a attempt to at least preserve their character should be made for future reworks. The old aatrox is dead now. Not changed, just removed from the game and everything interesting about him went with it. Instead we have another renekton, a loud, insane character because of a tragic backstory. This did not make the game feel "fresh" it just removed a unique character from the game entirely and replaced him. The real pain was that the visual update didn't even need to happen and that it was forced on because you guys took aatrox and remade him into what you guys wanted him to be instead of what he was. There wasn't even the attempt to catch any of his old lore even though you guys admitted it yourselves that aatrox had one of the more popular themes in the game. https://youtu.be/QgNJVHDnH94?t=36m39s I knew this would happen and that there was no way you would keep his old lore (you can even go through my comment history) after the blunder of a lore rework that was varus. Guess i was right.
Azadethe (NA)
: That's a pretty old video. Old Swain, Old Bounty System, and it's obviously low elo ..... because the only person who even skilled during the entire fight was Swain..... Katarina just ran in auto attack distance, Lucian attacked once and ran. Didn't even Dash. Swain only Ulted, didn't actually use E, W..... And Nocturne didn't even shield vs him or fear. You can't place an old video at a low elo as the Norm....
He is starting to get played competitively now and has been viable for ages. The aatrox is weak argument died a while ago but is still propagated because its a meme.
: Thank you for having a positive opinion about a new rework. Aatrox is my favorite of all time and I main, and it does get to me how all these "enlightened" players who aren't aatrox players just totally dumpster him. There's a few qualms here and there about his new model and VO (gonna miss his perma wings on his old model and he's way too "in your face" with his new VO lmfao). Overall, i love his new attitude, kit seems not as clunky IMHO. But we'll just have to wait and see how he performs!
Dw us other aatrox mains are dumpstering this rework too. We already knew his kit was getting dramatic changes but the fact they screwed up so much about his aesthetics and themes on a champion that was only ugraded to a full vgu because they thought it better than the old aatrox is frankly unacceptable. This rework deserves absolutely no positivity in any way shape or form. The community made it painfully clear that his current vo was great and they fucked it blatantly ignoring the community and his aesthetics can't be called anything but a downgrade. Look at rhaast next to aatrox to see what i mean.
: Aatrox Special interaction
This actually has to be the most disappointing rework riot has ever done. Though of course some people will eat this shit up because "lmao savage haha" what a waste of a good vo.
: Champion Update: Aatrox, the Darkin Blade
Well this was a disappointment and a half. VO seems ruined and he somehow has worse textures then before.
: I remember hearing someone hoping that he wouldn't become a shouty angry man. A moment's silence for that guy.
That was most people who played him, incredibly disappointing vo so far.
: You make a good point for sure. We're still discussing - I'm leaning towards Tabi and Randuin's applying before Infinity Edge.
I'm just going to point out the opposite side here because the boards is biased to hell for anything adc. If you make it that, randuins still blocks 20% of crit and tabis still blocks 12% of physical damage, your critting way less than you used too around 180% from rands then 12% less from that (actually i think it is lower because ninja tabi stacks with armour) of your damage from 230% of your damage then 12% less. If your plan is to make adcs better against tanks late game but weaker against everyone else you dont make them weaker against tanks too. This is not counting armour reducing the rest of the damage from critical strike so it has to be a pretty big conversion to pure damage if your going to go this route. Of course this may be affected by some other internal change that i dont know about, but i doubt that the old last whisper is going to make up for the massively reduce damage adc will have overall without the crit boost from ie.
: They never said he was going to be talking a lot. I think you’re taking that quote way out of context. All they said was that he’s getting a new VO. You seem to be jumping to conclusions here.
> [{quoted}](name=Kairoptra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vFcWt5OL,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-04-20T00:45:02.187+0000) > > They never said he was going to be talking a lot. I think you’re taking that quote way out of context. All they said was that he’s getting a new VO. You seem to be jumping to conclusions here. I don't want a new VO for a champ that already has a great one, and certainly dont want his calm demeanour changed because riot wants to make him discount rhaast where he shittalks everyone for no reason like this quote seems to imply.
GreenLore (EUW)
: Again the animations are very similar but not the same(except for the Q). But overall I can understand you in that regard,if I hadn't looked up the animations on a model viewer and comprared them side by side,I wouldn't have recognized any differences.
The changes in the animation are more to do with the model being changed more than anything else, the q is exactly the same to the point where the legs even crossed like base mf, the walk is only slightly different because it needs to raise her arms more because the guns are bigger and still does the sway exactly the same, the crit does the exact same pose but is slightly different because the model has the exo suit instead of pistols even though it looks really stupid anyway and the idle raises its arms every now and then because reasons while standing in the exact same pose until it does in the original. There are probably some smaller differences i missed but this is what i got from comparing them side to side.
GreenLore (EUW)
: I looked through her animations and only 3 look like they were reused. The basic idle animation,the Q animation and one of the running animations(the one where she has her guns up in the air). However only the Q really seems identical to her original one,the other 2 are slightly different,not to mentiont hat these reused animations might have been necessary due to clarity issues,just like Lancer Bcs walk animation. And honestly what qualifies as a cool animation differs depending on the opinion. I for example think that the unique gun animations and ult animations are all pretty cool.
Its 4 of them, the idle the q animation the walking animation and the crit (this is big because its a adc). Which is frankly ridiculous for a legendary skin yet this is meant to be a ultimate. Galio only got away with it because his had to be remodelled with his update.
: I'll be thinking about the champion only stacking component tonight. Not sure how I feel about it, but understand the concerns. The gameplay being stricter in teamfights is definitely intended, and in fact I do like that part. It feeling entirely bad in PvE scenarios, I'm less confident in. Also going to be considering going away from the phantom hit thing. Unsure if that's right yet, however.
Honestly this change is iffy, the forced stacking on champs hurts pushing power and the percentage damage makes it more desirable for ranged champs who can stack damage and not be punished. Melee users would previously build it first or second item while the enemy damage is lower and they can afford to buy damage then go defensive usually and will hence miss out on more of the bonus stats then their ranged counterparts who can build more damage/ap with less risk. Not to mention melee characters normally splitpush especially characters which build a dps item like rageblade, which this item would be horrid for due to the stats being tied to actually hitting champs. Also this might be actually busted on kayle as she gets 18% extra ad and 18% extra ap not to mention Guinsoo's rage when fully stacked plus has long enough range to actually stack it safely in a fight. Also idk why the guy above is carrying on about it being a hybrid item, its been a on hit item since it was changed from the aoe effect, kayle is the only hybrid character that i can think of that actually buys it and that's because she has a on hit effect. Jax arguably can but i havent seen one build hybrid in a long time. ka'sai seems to do so as well because she has a onhit, her passive but due to her being released i can't say for sure yet. Edit: uh, if you take away the on hit effect almost no one who buys it now will buy it unless it offers something else similar fully stacked.
: Weirdly, the feedback I've seen has been overwhelmingly positive - I've only seen people upset that their headcanon wasn't true, which isn't something I can help with. :-P I think, where before we had a muddy and inconsistent sci-fi Void, we are now beginning to see that it's not some alien race or Stargate scenario. We have started to explore the Void with the three human champions who have been touched by it, and each of them represents a differing level of interaction/sanity afterwards. In all honesty, I am really excited to keep developing the Void, and telling more stories. Kai'Sa is the dawn of something new, something that's never been seen on Runeterra before - the Void existing in symbiosis with another living creature, for reasons no one really understands, rather than devouring it. So, maybe it's because I can see five steps ahead in what we've got planned for all the uncertain or lapsed lore-heads... but I'm really excited that we took this bold first step. :-) It's all downward and darker from here, believe me...
I think the main criticism that has been going around about ka'sai is that she appeared to trivialise the void lore. Before we got the full story it was assumed she fell in the void itself which made people go wtf look at everyone else who remotely went near the void yet this person looks completely normal bar the body suit. Thankfully in the full release she isn't in the void at all however she still sort of trivialises the void lore a bit. The void before it was expanded was seen as a horrible corruption that turned everyone who came in contact with it into monsters, it still is but we know more about it now. Yet we had Kasai just somehow miraculously survive close enough to it that she constantly saw the abominations that came out from it, going so far to have to kill one at the age of 10. She also somehow manages to live in these chasms for god knows how long, at least 8 years probably with no mentioned food source (void flesh rapidly decays outside of the void when dead, and considering she is not in the void she cant be eating that), constantly fighting the abominations that pop out of the void to survive. Then you get the ingame character who seemingly isn't affected by living in a literal hellhole at all, not to mention the trauma of literally killing her entire village by mistake. Yet she seems calm and collected at all times, not in any way scarred or paranoid about constantly being attacked by lovecraftian beings from another reality. She also has seemingly no cares about slowly being transformed into god knows what by her second skin other than a few mentions of it itching. Not to mention being completely isolated while this is going on until she gets back to the surface in which people view her as a monster as well. Yet she seems perfectly fine with this ingame with seemingly no cares. It just feels like ka sai could of been a better character ingame or at least more interesting, because from her lore she should be but ingame she just seems way, way to calm for what she went through. Hell the suit could of made sounds or clicks to interact with her and she would of been far more interesting. You could even of made it so the suit regulates her emotions to explain the seeming lack of emotion. Overall it makes the void seem less dangerous than what it is in all the other lore, and makes the character feel bland while doing so. Also what did she eat down there, i assume it took her a while to get out so she had to of been eating something.? Sorry for the wall of text.
: As I said, hopefully we'll start to build your trust on things like this. Old lore is not necessarily good lore, any more than new lore would be automatically better. I'd always prefer to *develop* the setting, rather than overhaul and retcon bits of it.
The Varus incident tbh was just horrid especially due to the fact that Varus's lore was good lore and didn't hold the dark and secret past problem like most of the old and current lore. He now has the problem of the dank and secret past while also possessing the pantheon problem where he isn't even the same person now. Honestly that event by itself makes me doubt future lore. There was so much misinformation to the point where it wasn't funny. Honestly does the narrative team actually consider that a success because there were rioters claiming that it was a month ago? Also how do you actually plan to not surprise us with the lore updates because they all sort of just pop up randomly with maybe a notice a month beforehand. Also what happend to that Narrative communication about Varus that DyQuil promised a month ago? Is this meant to be it, i assume so but just making sure. Also please for the love of god take Aatrox's old lore into account and do not make him varus 2.0
Reav3 (NA)
: Which is funny since Meddler is the one that said it originally :P
: > [{quoted}](name=Bioluminescence,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=MFKKJvoA,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2018-01-23T18:37:11.655+0000) > > Highs and lows. Is Beatrice at least still part of his lore, now that you cut her from his kit? Also, why was that choice made, and why was his profile changed to be something entirely different? Swain was crippled, he needed a cane to walk, or at least that's what he made people think. Who knows what the truth really was. That was part of what made him an interesting character, he'd succeeded in a nation where strength is -everything-, despite his physical disadvantages. Removing those removes what made Swain, Swain. I mean, I like that he's still the leader, and that you at least still make allusions to him being a great strategist, but his appearance is just entirely different. In all honesty, if I didn't know who he was, I'd have said he was a reworked Vladimir. I've no idea who worked on the update, but can we get some context? Please? I'm trying to keep things constructive, but it's a bit difficult when we have nothing to weigh these massives changes again.
yes he mentions her in one of his lines, how tied in is she we don't know yet.
: #Give Swain a Haircut
Honestly the only thing i can complain about this rework is the visuals, How could they remove swains bird transformation literally the most iconic part of him and why would they decide he needs to have vlads hair. If those 2 things were fixed the rework would be exceptional but until they are it will just sort of be, meh especially because of how dull the ult now looks.
DyQuill (NA)
: Hey all, back again. This is gonna be my last post in this thread, but we’re still working on more Narrative communication to come. I tried to answer questions as best I can without launching into essays for each, combining similar questions where possible but omitting loaded or entirely subjective ones (e.g. “Why the deception when the PBE story leaked” and “Do you plan to address the lore update that was uncalled for and extremely poor in it's creation”). I also didn’t pin it because this is really just following thru on a promise I made to this small group of dedicated Varus mains on Boards, and not meant to be a big announcement. That being said, feel free to link this comment if you see others bring it up who haven’t read it. Thanks for sticking with me on this wild ride - hope we deliver something that resonates with you more in the next one. **WHY DO THIS AT ALL? WHY VARUS SPECIFICALLY?** Super simply put, our philosophy is to keep evolving League - not just the game, but the story and world. In most respects (based on gameplay data + affinity and sentiment surveys), Varus was middling (check out 3m20s mark of the /dev video: https://youtu.be/KnI4es0Bv8I?t=3m20s). If we did our job right, players will now feel a lot more strongly about Varus either way - love or hate - and far less will find him just “ok.” I’ll note that it’s totally conceivable to have done this story with a completely new champ; however, our plan is generally to update older champs like Varus regardless, and we thought this story could be a good fit for him. **HOW DID YOU DECIDE? WHAT IS THE PROCESS LIKE?** This is a good example of the kind of question i think is better answered holistically, about our process for all champion updates of this nature. But I’ll try to be more specific. Some of you have asked for specific arguments for and against updating Varus, which I’m not gonna replicate, because we have meetings, emails, messages, random conversations over lunch, survey data, etc. that all contribute to the “argument.” There was never a “final debate” where one side “won” and the other “lost;” in the end, the team (specifically the writing and creative leads) made a decision on what they thought - given everything i’ve just listed above - was the one to do. That being said - there was a ton of debate internally, among the core team but also Rioters in general. Virtually all the arguments that have come up on Boards and beyond came up during that process. (This next bit is more on the holistic side, and really oversimplified, but for what it’s worth…) we generally view champion updates through the lens of “pain versus gain: how many narrative and character possibilities are we gaining at the cost of losing some of the things players already love? We’re still collecting feedback and sentiment, but so far we think we achieved more gain than pain when it comes to Varus. **WHAT DID THE TEAM CONSIDER "CORE" TO VARUS' CHARACTER? **“The core of the character, to us, was the tragic loss of a loved one, the desperation that leads to a "deal with the devil," and obviously the corruption stemming from a weapon.” First answered here: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7gn1yo/varus_as_we_fall_official_music_video_league_of/dql4545/ **WHY REMOVE THE FATHER ASPECT? THAT FELT CORE TO ME.** Originally answered here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/z1dTsaQ6-so-lore-update-means-throwing-away-champions?comment=000000000002001c0000000100000000000000010001 But yeah, we agree this is fair feedback. Ultimately, we felt that romantic love would be a stronger motivator and bond for this particular story - see the next answer. **DID YOU TALK TO VARUS PLAYERS ABOUT THIS?** We have ongoing surveys that ask about favorite champions, as well as “Player Labs” where we invite mains of champs (among many other participants) to give us feedback on work in progress. For Varus specifically, we looked at existing data for sentiment on his backstory and affinity for his character. Every champion has diehard mains, either of that champ’s gameplay or story or both. We’re fully aware that changing champs always runs the risk of leaving those mains feeling betrayed, and so we apply the “pain versus gain” framework I mentioned above in addition to trying to capture as much of their “core” character aspects as possible - but while still trying to push the bar creatively. There’s a ton (and I mean a ton) of work behind the scenes that goes along with making decisions like this. This article on naming a champ (https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/12/naming-new-champions/) gives a good peek behind the scenes. You may not see the surveys, or the conversations, or the “arguments,” but trust me, they happen. **WHY MAKE VAL AND KAI GAY? WAS THIS A PR STUNT OR MOTIVATED BY SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE STORY ITSELF?** Val and Kai and their relationship was 100% a product of creative story decisions, and nothing more. The /dev video goes into some more detail at 5m11s mark (https://youtu.be/KnI4es0Bv8I?t=5m11s), but essentially we knew that for this story, they would need to have a super strong bond that would both bring them to desperation and then allow them to overcome the darkin presence; they would need to be partners on the battlefield and in life. While that suggested to us romantic love, rather than familial, the particular genders wouldn’t change anything about their heartlight relationship. So from there, the first draft of the script was written, and featured two warriors named Val and Kai. Simple as that. **WHY DOES YOUR COMMUNICATION SUCK? WHAT WILL YOU DO NEXT TIME THERE'S BACKLASH LIKE THIS?**We’d like to think we suck a lot less now, but there’s always room for improvement. You can expect more Nexus articles and /dev diary videos (which have some of the best reach versus cost-to-make ratios), and the usual smattering of comments on forums like reddit and Boards. If you have other ideas of things you’d like to see, like a podcast or more regular blog, let us know so we can point to your comment and say “LET US GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT.” As for handling backlash - we’ll keep listening and communicating, and take action based on those two-way conversations. But it always starts with the conversations. **HOW DO WE COMMUNICATE OUR PLEASURE/DISPLEASURE WITH YOUR DECISIONS?** Honestly, the way you’re doing it now is fine. I think what this question really is getting at is, how do we have more of an impact on the things Riot does? Which is a fair question as well. My best piece of advice is to be proactive, saying what you’d like to see from X champ long before we’ve locked in the story. Feedback after the fact is still helpful and super encouraged, but we’ve likely made our final decision already, and it's more likely to inform our next decision than the current one - whereas proactive feedback about what you'd like to see can be taken into account during the actual development cycle. Obviously there are cases where we revert those changes, but it takes a ton of strong, accurate, and consistently negative feedback for that to happen. **DO YOU INTEND TO CHANGE/REVERT THE LORE? WHAT WOULD IT TAKE?** I know this isn't the answer this group wants, but no, we don’t. There’s no magic formula that has to happen or threshold that has to be reached for decisions to be changed, but as mentioned above, we’d have to see some major negative backlash before totally reverting a decision that’s been in motion for some time. **AT THE END OF THE DAY - DO YOU GET WHY WE'RE STILL FRUSTRATED AND ASKING YOU ALL THESE QUESTIONS?** Yeah, we totally get it. Wouldn’t still be talking if we didn’t. **WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU SAY?** I can’t answer this for you, but I hope as we continue to communicate about our decisions and update League, you’ll see what we’re saying is truthful and that we’re not here to bullshit you. Even when we disagree with one another, we’ll talk it out and keep it real.
Yeah i cant say hating a character due to changes in their lore can ever be called positive no matter how you try to spin that bullshit and if you do go by that damn you certainly exceeded all expectations there. This whole lore change is a disgrace and damn well certainly made me worry about future endeavors that the lore team makes on older champions. God help aatrox with your team on the loose because his concept is almost certainly going to be ruined so you can have more 'character possibilities' when your never going to touch that character for years after the bloody change like every other character you made in this game. The only one you sort of expanded on was mf and that literally brought nothing to the plot other than a tiney bit of personality development which will proberbly only bear fruit late this or next year which is a shame because even though it didn't expand anything it was a good read. Look at jhin for another prime example (this lore is excellent). You guys said you would expand on his story with shen and zed. Nope been 2 years since that was promised any hope of you guys expanding it has been long gone until you rework akali or some bs so you can fit another character in that storyline. Also dont even try to deny that you couldnt change varus's lore back even if you wanted too because of the animation simply invested too much into this crap so the potential waste will never override the fact that anyone who objectively looks at this lore sees that its horrible both from a story point of view and a character view. You pulled another fken panth but instead of one interesting character being randomly taken over by a being we know nothing about its two bland characters instead. Great lore right there 10/10 thanks for getting rid of one of the better old lores and tarnishing the darkin lore with this crap to boot. Also you say that you will take perspectives on lore ahead of time. So here we go even though i know its not going to do much because im pretty sure you screwed it up anyway after you tried to humanise the darkin with the new varus lore. Aatrox is a god damn monster. His saving of people is a act which hides his underlining theme which is turning people into monsters by saving or destroying there lives so that they commit atrocities to other people. Hell its not like you have nothing to work with here, he literally set up runeterra in its current form with proof of his influence everywhere. Also his name is a literal pun on atrocity. Dont make him a hero he is not one. He is a messed up being that derives pleasure from turning people against eachother and commiting horrid acts. Hell he refrences tryndamere as his greatest creation a man he screwed up so much that its rage wont let it die.
Sparkle (NA)
: That's probably love though in that case haha. Maybe a better example would be like 'GUYS I HAVE NO OPINION ON VEL'KOZ' (or whomever).
Honestly in all my time in league i havent seen any complaining against vel koz ever. Hell he is proberbly considered one of the most balanced champions to many including myself.
: I'm RiotMEMEMEMEMEME AMA about Champion/VGU Development!
How is the aatrox vgu going. Are the people working it running into any problems due to the model not being changed. Also is it a poppy sized update in terms of changes or warwick sized where the champ remained same in concept thanks.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Stabby Tabby,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=FZ9TQHbB,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-02T04:32:16.992+0000) > > Is that we can see that Riot genuinely couldn't care less about what the community thinks. There is a ton of backlash against the change and they just _don't care in the slightest._ > > For real, new Varus is terrible writing, downright. As a gay person I actually find a little insulting that they had to change a presumably straight family man character to gay. It's, really slimy. > > And nothing is gonna be done, Riot doesn't give the faintest fuck about what the community thinks, we're basically nothing to them, our opinions mean nothing here. What if they're artists who want to do whatever the fuck they please? Even unpopular things? {{champion:202}} I mean I'm sure they'll be understood. Eventually.
> [{quoted}](name=Dreamspitter,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=FZ9TQHbB,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2017-12-02T18:47:53.585+0000) > > What if they're artists who want to do whatever the fuck they please? > > Even unpopular things? {{champion:202}} > > I mean I'm sure they'll be understood. Eventually. A artist that paints over another persons work is a piece of shit no matter how you look at it.
: Would Thresh, Blitzcrank and Amumu's Qs also happen to have that same feature? There have been a lot of complaints regarding how those abilities very clearly seem to miss, yet at the last moment latch onto something that was not in their line of fire. In the case of Nautilus's Q at the very least, what was the intent behind adding that kind of lollypopping effect? Do you think it still has value now?
100% sure thresh hook increases, pretty sure blitz does as well, not sure about amumu.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 30
Is there a chance we can know how soon can we expect to see more info on the lore of the darkin? Will it be after kayns release or will we be getting some info a bit earlier. Either way very excited to see how it all turns out.
Bârd (NA)
: A new set of leaks
Holy, new urgot sounds sick. Edit: false alarm new victor skin, this can't be real.
dimiondo (OCE)
: His new w 100% punishes you for building around it. You literally have to ignore it and build to survive because its virtually useless in a proper fight now. Oh boy it is taking a MASSIVE nerf to the overall healing of it. Basically his old w tripled under half hp. So a max level w would heal for 120+ 60% of ad under half health. while only 40+20% over it. to put it in comparison, it would take a aatrox missing 3000 hp to even be comparable to a aatrox with 150 extra damage under half hp. The only benefit is that you can stay at full health in lane but because you heal so slow not it never happens anyway so the healing is absolutely terrible now.
Nah there is at least one that works. Swain. He isn't too overpowerd and isn't too underpowerd at the moment. I'm at the point where i have pretty much given up trying to make him work anyway. They will either revert him or they won't if they don't me and many other people who play this champ will just stop because fk playing this load of garbage. Anyway thanks a ton for the rational conversation about him lol, you brought up a ton of good points and made me realise a bit more about the underlying idea of the rework lol. It has good intentions, i just don't think its been done right.
: Aatrox has a 39.02% winrate while Mundo has a 36.03% winrate. So sorry, what I'm seeing is much different from what you are seeing.
http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Top http://champion.gg/champion/DrMundo/Top
: I don't think his W actually punishes him that much or is solely a fallback tool. As you yourself noted earlier building damage only gave a small increase to healing before anyways. I haven't done the math but as he levels up his healing based on raw health should stay mostly in line with that. Since he also likes items like Black Cleaver and Spirit Visage anyways I don't think the healing is actually taking much of a hit when building damage. Rather if he is in a bad situation he can build one of his defensive items sooner and stay healthier in lane where he can farm until he catches up. Since a lot of his power got shifted from early game into mid-late game this is actually a viable strat on him now. So it shouldn't actually be punishing Aatrox unless you go 4-5 damage items now. So long as you have one to two items that give health which is quite normal his healing should be on fairly equal footing scaling wise. It just allows him to build a tank item first if he is struggling in lane.
His new w 100% punishes you for building around it. You literally have to ignore it and build to survive because its virtually useless in a proper fight now. Oh boy it is taking a MASSIVE nerf to the overall healing of it. Basically his old w tripled under half hp. So a max level w would heal for 120+ 60% of ad under half health. while only 40+20% over it. to put it in comparison, it would take a aatrox missing 3000 hp to even be comparable to a aatrox with 150 extra damage under half hp. The only benefit is that you can stay at full health in lane but because you heal so slow not it never happens anyway so the healing is absolutely terrible now.
: The Aatrox bandwagon is actually just dumb
wait You realise aatrox has a 38% winrate right? Mundo has 44%. Wat
: The unhealthiness of an AD scaling on a heal is that it gives survivability based on how much damage you do. While there are similar abilities that function well like this (Take Riven's dash with an AD scaling for example) their healing isn't permanent. Healing is stronger than shielding and by building a healer who scales with damage it means that as they build damage and AS they heal for more and more often while also doing more damage. Many people think this is fine because lifesteal does this too. However there is a core difference here. Grievous wounds. Grievous Wounds cuts healing. For lifesteal this is OK. This is because building lifesteal is a way to amplify a kit, an optional survivability based build path. For a champion this causes issues however because you are negating a kit with an item. Aatrox is heavily balanced around being able to heal himself by dealing damage. Grievous wounds means that he has to be balanced around healing enough with grievous wounds to still be an effective champion without being overwhelming vs enemies without grievous wounds. It is a delicate balance that most items and champions toe. Aatrox however has to add in the fact that he does significantly more damage while following this line, and it scales throughout the game as he gets AS and AD. It changes the two part system into a trifecta of balancing terror. It becomes a feast or famine state of heal or be crushed. As for how this reduces the effectiveness of tank items lets look at it this way. You have option A, it makes you harder to kill. You have option B, it makes you deal significantly more damage and slightly harder to kill. You also have to keep in mind that his heal didn't just scale with AD. It also scaled with AS. AS provides far more effectiveness to how often he can heal than CDR does for other ability based heals because the cap is much higher. By changing his AD ratio to a health based one it still increases how much he heals as he levels while being able to shift dependency off of his drain tank nature. In other words Riot is trying to not make him a drain tank, or at least not a primary drain tank. The health ratio isn't intended to make him build tank, but rather to give him something he can fall back on if he is getting completely wrecked. Having a health ratio on his heal means that instead of building damage and being just as weak against burst he can build a more defensive item and actually be effective with it. It isn't intended to be a primary build path but rather a fallback if he gets too far behind so that he can still be useful. The purpose is to make him less feast or famine which hasn't been reached because he is very weak not because the change is bad. You can't really say he is less feast and more famine as evidence yet because he isn't balanced yet. He still needs tuning so we have to wait for that. The point was that when he is tuned he can be more easily balanced around both due to having scalings on both ends. Is he still struggling too much when behind? Buff health scalings. Not able to get ahead? Buff AD scalings. If you payed attention to old Aatrox's scalings you can see that he had nothing to fall back on when behind. This meant that to buff behind Aatrox you had to increase his base stats. When you do that he becomes even stronger when ahead meaning you have to nerf his scalings. Suddenly he starts building tank because his base values are strong enough to let him do it. That is why Aatrox changes weren't forthcoming for a long time. It is a viscous cycle that leads to the world of tank. The solution is to put a weak defensive scaling in. This gives some fallback in a tank build but you still remain fairly weak unless you add in some damage too. This prevents the issue of a tank that does too much damage or a monster that kills everything before backing. He retains the ability to scale up but has a fallback that doesn't leave him useless. In fact by making it the heal you give Aatrox the ability to build some health than heal quite a lot when behind, enhancing his ability to stay in lane and farm. As for builds on him now I would say that Black Cleaver or BotRK are still good choices. Black Cleaver is even better than before because the E does physical damage. I think we need to give him a bit of time to settle and get buffs before we see a build solidify. Taric is a pretty similar champion in terms of items that he likes when compared to previously but it still took a good two months after his rework before his build finally settled in a good place. As someone on the Taric Main Discord I can say that we still have almost daily conversations about what keystone Taric should use. You would think that something like that would be hashed out pretty quickly but the debates between CotC, Bond, Grasp, and Windspeakers still rage rampant. The new Bond or whatever they called it just reignited the discussion. I mention this because even changes that don't change what a champion wants to build much can still send the whole community into confusion about what to build for months. Also we got a Rioter mentioning that there would likely be followup Aatrox buffs after the hotfix too. They are just waiting to gather some more data and see where the current buffs leave him. PS: I know right? Ima just run back through and upvote all your posts to negate the damage.
Yeah i get what you mean now by building ad to be tankier. However I severely disagree about changing the w to be a fallback. Health is only good if you can do something with it. A yas with a shit ton of health would be bad if he had no damage as he has no way to use that health. That's the problem with aatrox. If he builds pure defensively he sustains more every 3 attacks. So what? He is a q bot. He is useless in every other way. (Holy shit i just realised why riot buffed his q. Fuck them.) He doesn't even heal that well because of his reduced attack speed. Better yet the new aatrox will be even worse with that regard when people just buy grievous wounds first item. He won't be able to sustain in lane and he gimps himself further when building tank to increase the heal. However the idea of giving him a fall back was a good one they just went by it the wrong way while removing too much else from his kit. I agree with most of what you wrote, i just don't want the w to become the fallback tool because i would argue its always been his most offensive tool in the past. I just really hate the direction they are forcing him in and don't want to see one of my favourite champions die because riot wants everyone to be a fken tank. He shouldn't be a tank. He should be a high sustained bruiser like he was before with adjustments to his e and q to make him more reliable when behind and he would of been fine. Taric was a rework done right, they updated his kit, made him more rewarding to play and did it in a way most of the userbase would like by keeping his inherent tankyness, armour scaling and spell spam while giving him a very powerful ult and refining his abilities. They did the complete opposite with this. They made him less rewarding, left his kit virtually the same but worse and pushed him in a direction most of the userbase hates by trying to force him into a tank. Sorry if this isn't coherent at the moment i'm tired lol.
: >I don't get how you say he was overbearing when as you stated it he received almost zero nerfs? Its a common trend that for some reason plagues aatrox. He hasn't actually done anything wrong over the years yet people assume that because riot refuses to acknowledge him there was some terrible time when aatrox was some monster of a champ like ap yi, xin or eve. Simple fact he wasn't. In fact to prevent this riot nerfed him on the pbe. Fun fact do you know Aatrox's ult used to give him health the more people he hit. Not many people do because it was before he was actually released. He saw some competitive use just after release but it was mainly because anything that could survive renekton at that point was used top lane and he had good sustain. He was then nerfed, riot tied his attack speed to the bloodwell (he used to get it seperately) and nerfed his blade of torment base damage (this is the reason he fell out of meta). He was still played for a bit but fell out of meta as stronger champions took his place. He has had 2 buffs since then, one to his ult which gives him bloodwell equal to the enemies hit and the other being a reduction per level in his revive time. He was actually quite strong shortly after his release and he wasn't healthy for the game because he would either do nothing or outheal enemies while building damage. I also mentioned multiple times that the reason he became weak was due to meta shifts and item changes. He was reliant on AS items and when all the items he liked got nerfed such as BotRK Aatrox fell off too. >Now to the real reason aatrox was considered toxic to riot. It was his e blades of torment. You see you don't actually max your w with aatrox and this is where your argument is flawed. This was due to the fact that it had absolutely terrible base scaling. It's heal literally increased by 5 for every level. What you really maxed was your e. This is because it allowed you to consistently harass down the opponent from range while staying safe. It allows aatrox to bully from range for free without actually putting himself in danger and made laning against him extremely hard. Hence why aatrox used to be able to survive renekton and have a competitive spot in the top lane. However when this was reduced he lost a lot of his power top lane and hence was the actual reason that he fell out of the meta. He has not been seen in competitive since, he never fell in and out of meta. He fell out then disappeared. Except this makes no sense. There are a ton of champions that can harass from range. It doesn't mean they have to be nerfed. Aatrox's E is pretty low range meaning that it left enemies the ability to engage on them. There are plenty of other champions that could harass from further range more frequently. His strength lay in his healing because you either beat him out or you didn't. >His W was not unhealthy. It has not changed until since he was released because it was not op in any way shape or form. It has weaknesses to burst and the enemy forking 800 gold out of their pocket and buying grievous wounds. It was a unique element to the game only used in one champ, and even though that champ was weak it was one of the most interesting mechanics in the game and led to interactive play from both sides. Aatrox trying to manage his hp to get the best of both sides of his w. And the enemy trying to work out the best way to burst him down to prevent him from sustaining. The healing was not completely unhealthy, what was unhealthy was that it had such a strong AD scaling. It meant buying defensive items was not as statistically efficient as buying damage items. Defensive items were only bought to survive burst so that he could continue to draintank. >Now about his build path. To be fair it hasn't really changed much over the years. He didn't actually need that much attack speed to the point where people would skip it to the 3rd or 4th item. His build path was kind of fluid and he could build whatever he thought he needed. It wasn't perfect and it had its problems one being you had to snowball to beat the enemy. However its worse now. You need attack speed because your passive is so unreliable. You need damage because building tank is useless. You need tank because if you don't get it you die instantly (worse because no revive without passive). Its a mess and honestly he needs his old w back because of this. You say that like he didn't need AS and Damage before. Tank is more useful on him than before because he actually scales with it and that gives him the ability to fall back on tankier items when behind.
> He was actually quite strong shortly after his release and he wasn't healthy for the game because he would either do nothing or outheal enemies while building damage. I also mentioned multiple times that the reason he became weak was due to meta shifts and item changes. He was reliant on AS items and when all the items he liked got nerfed such as BotRK Aatrox fell off too. Yes you are right he was strong for a patch, what i mean is that he wasn't a terror like some previous release champs such as xin. However he didn't fall off because of item changes that one nerf killed him, because it targeted his main power in lane. How is it unhealthy to have a strong ad scaling? It didn't make building tank obsolete, it had a 25% bonus ad ratio meaning if you built 200 damage. You would only heal 50 extra for each proc. 150 extra under 50%. How does that reduce the statistical efficiency of tanky items at all. You could buy any tank item and get 100% efficiency from that item because there is nothing actually reducing it. And whats wrong with 1-2 defensive items being built to survive burst? How is that unhealthy? Riots trying to push him to become a tankier draintank. How is that any more healthy then a semi tanky draintank? But he does now. They removed his attack speed. They removed his ad scaling on w. They increased his need to build tank. He simply needs to much. Previously your passive attack speed and sustain allowed you to build a damage item to build into other stuff. This is no longer the case. Tank is more useful on him yes, but by being more useful it makes the champion worse. He frankly cannot afford to build tank first, his stats and current stats do nothing to help this. A previous build on aatrox would be something like this: {{item:3074}} {{item:3047}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3071}} Now i don't know what the fuck you would build. Because there is no good starting item on him. P.S new buffs aren't going to do much i bet. I also love the one asshole going and downvoting everything because they don't know shit and hate aatrox.
: Aatrox is in a fine place now, the problem is people still want to go attack speed glass cannon, instead of literally using the common sense your showing. Im going to try out your build at some point tonight
How can you think a 38% winrate with anything is fine?
: His W was always the reason he got out of hand in the past like just about any draintank. It meant that as he built damage he still gained survivability. The reasons he was completely overbearing in the past certainly weren't because his Q was strong or his E is OP. In fact all his abilities are pretty straightforward and aren't issues. A small heavily delayed knockup wasn't the issue. A mid ranged low damage skillshot wasn't the problem. His ult is a decent nuke early game but when he was strong it was his ability to consistently fight enemies so he wasn't ult dependent. His passive was never what made him overbearing in the past for the same reason as his ult. Rather it was his W's ability to heal him. Unlike many other heals though it scaled with AS and AD while also being the main strength of his kit. This turned him into a feast or famine champion. Of course recently he fell out of favour due to item changes. Everything he liked building got nerfed into the ground and the meta grew to hate on AS champions. Top lane became a game of all ins rather than the short trades that he could heal up between before. This is why his W was not recently overbearing despite it being the reason he was overbearing in the past. If you look at the history of Aatrox he has never received a nerf. Rather it was the items he built that were nerfed and as such he fell out of use. All the facts point towards it. AD is more available than before but the AS on items he liked all got nerfed. He has exactly one ability that scaled with AS and it was the ability he maxed. Everything points towards his W as being his balance issue considering nerfs/buffs to items effecting it is what has flung him in and out of play. Now as for him not being able to effectively build tank I apologize that I didn't fully explain it. It was (and is) getting late which is why I probably wont post again until tomorrow. Aatrox gets just as tanky as any other champion when building tank. However he did not get any damage for it. On the other hand building damage increases his survivability, making him effectively tankier. It meant that in terms of efficiency Damage was more useful than Defensive stats because it buffed both stats rather than just one. While Aatrox would build a bit of tank it is like how any lifestealer will build some tank. He built it to survive burst/cc so he could heal back up again. He couldn't rush tank items though because as you mentioned he became nothing more than a Q bot. It meant that while behind he couldn't effectively build tank without falling further behind. Currently however he doesn't suffer anywhere near as much because building health actually increases his healing. This doesn't mean he wont suffer if he ends up having to rush it, but it means getting behind leaves him with a fallback path that doesn't just turn him into a Q bot, and I think we can all agree that Aatrox Q is not an ability you want to have to rely on.
I don't get how you say he was overbearing when as you stated it he received almost zero nerfs? Its a common trend that for some reason plagues aatrox. He hasn't actually done anything wrong over the years yet people assume that because riot refuses to acknowledge him there was some terrible time when aatrox was some monster of a champ like ap yi, xin or eve. Simple fact he wasn't. In fact to prevent this riot nerfed him on the pbe. Fun fact do you know Aatrox's ult used to give him health the more people he hit. Not many people do because it was before he was actually released. He saw some competitive use just after release but it was mainly because anything that could survive renekton at that point was used top lane and he had good sustain. He was then nerfed, riot tied his attack speed to the bloodwell (he used to get it seperately) and nerfed his blade of torment base damage (this is the reason he fell out of meta). He was still played for a bit but fell out of meta as stronger champions took his place. He has had 2 buffs since then, one to his ult which gives him bloodwell equal to the enemies hit and the other being a reduction per level in his revive time. Now to the real reason aatrox was considered toxic to riot. It was his e blades of torment. You see you don't actually max your w with aatrox and this is where your argument is flawed. This was due to the fact that it had absolutely terrible base scaling. It's heal literally increased by 5 for every level. What you really maxed was your e. This is because it allowed you to consistently harass down the opponent from range while staying safe. It allows aatrox to bully from range for free without actually putting himself in danger and made laning against him extremely hard. Hence why aatrox used to be able to survive renekton and have a competitive spot in the top lane. However when this was reduced he lost a lot of his power top lane and hence was the actual reason that he fell out of the meta. He has not been seen in competitive since, he never fell in and out of meta. He fell out then disappeared. His W was not unhealthy. It has not changed until since he was released because it was not op in any way shape or form. It has weaknesses to burst and the enemy forking 800 gold out of their pocket and buying grievous wounds. It was a unique element to the game only used in one champ, and even though that champ was weak it was one of the most interesting mechanics in the game and led to interactive play from both sides. Aatrox trying to manage his hp to get the best of both sides of his w. And the enemy trying to work out the best way to burst him down to prevent him from sustaining. Now about his build path. To be fair it hasn't really changed much over the years. He didn't actually need that much attack speed to the point where people would skip it to the 3rd or 4th item. His build path was kind of fluid and he could build whatever he thought he needed. It wasn't perfect and it had its problems one being you had to snowball to beat the enemy. However its worse now. You need attack speed because your passive is so unreliable. You need damage because building tank is useless. You need tank because if you don't get it you die instantly (worse because no revive without passive). Its a mess and honestly he needs his old w back because of this.
: Weren't the changes to him a big help? It's not like there are a ton of Aatrox mains that got screwed here. He has the lowest playrate in the game.
They destroyed his 2 saving graces his passive and his w. He doesn't sustain as much now and his attack speed is gimped by a stacking mechanism. He also can't revive unless he is blood rushed which just makes his changes worse. Brief summary of changes.
: No, it means making his tankiness be more dependent on building tank rather than it being focused on building damage, making tank only semi viable as building damage on old Aatrox also made you harder to kill causing a heavy feast or famine situation. By cutting that out he becomes much healthier right there. Furthermore he has clear power spikes and openings, meaning he can be very powerful at certain times and weak at others provide another big balance lever. You also say like all his power got shifted into his passive but previously Aatrox had a deceptively large amount of power in his passive due to the AS buff it gave him which was the most complained about thing on old Aatrox, how the revive passive didn't feel strong because you lost all your AS because your passive drained. By making the power easier to access but more windowed it adds the balancing lever of not having to balance around it always being up but rather be able to balance around both when it is up and down. This gives two different areas you can balance him around, thereby making him easier to balance. Struggling in general? Buff base. Struggling in all ins? Buff passive. You complain about all his power being shoved into his passive making him too very weak or very strong. However the way they did it means that both can be used as balancing levers compared to old Aatrox who was either too weak or too strong thanks to his W healing, but rather than being off and on throughout a match he was either strong in the game and unkillable or weak and useless. It is now on or off throughout a match and under the Aatrox player's control rather than being on or off for the entire match based on whether you are ahead or behind/current meta/enemy team.
> No, it means making his tankiness be more dependent on building tank rather than it being focused on building damage, making tank only semi viable as building damage on old Aatrox also made you harder to kill causing a heavy feast or famine situation. I'm sorry but what? I honestly don't get what you mean here. I'm going to assume you meant that building pure tank was unviable on old aatrox and you are correct. But it was because he dealt no damage and was basically a q bot. If you mean that he built too much ad and tried to sustain everything you are wrong because his w while strong was counter'd by a number of things such as cc and grievous wounds. Pre update aatrox build a hybrid of both tanky stats and damage and was a bruiser a type of champ that can take a hit and dish out damage if left unchecked. Similar champ is vi. She builds a mixture of damage and resistances to punch a hole in the enemy front line without dying. She does it through damage and cc, Aatrox does it through being hard to kill while dishing out moderate damage. Your not wrong, but your also misinterpreting his old passive a bit. Bloodwell served two functions, a revive based on how much blood was in the bloodwell and a attack speed boost depending on how much blood was in the bloodwell. The blood was drained when he revived which essentially made him useless soon as he got out of it removing his attack speed. Now this right here is why he is so shit at the moment. Aatrox was useless when he revived because he had no attack speed from his passive. What did riot do. They put all of his attack speed. Into a 4 second timed passive that takes a ton of effort to actually set off. Making him shit when the passive is not up. Hence why i say they put all his power into his passive. The power may have already been in the passive. But they gated both the revive and the attack speed behind this stupid thing. This is why me and many others say the attack speed needs to be independent from the passive. If it isn't no matter what they do except absolutely breaking his passive will make him viable, hence why i said extremely weak or extremely strong on the other post. Nobody ever complained about the attack speed from his old passive. Only the revive, we wanted it gone so he could have actual base stats. However i see what you mean with the balancing gears and you are correct it does give more leavers to balance which is fine however if they don't understand what to tune (Frankly after this rework i highly doubt it) they will still have problems with the new aatrox. However you are wrong about his w. His W healing was balanced and there was nothing wrong with it how it was. It gave him great healing in fights but could be counter'd by numerous things such as grievous wounds or simply bursting him down when he was low. It wasn't too strong because over 50% hp it wouldn't sustain as much meaning he would be around the 50% hp mark in lane half the time if he took a negative trade. The current version however is worse with everything it does. It promotes simply sustaining and staying away from your opponent as you can no longer trade with them making playing against him boring and uninteresting while making it harder to deal with a fed aatrox because they would consistently sustain back up to 100% hp instead of the 50-70% the old aatrox would. It makes him worse in fights as you can no longer reliably trade with your opponent as the healing is frankly garbage compared to the old one and lastly it also screws up aatrox's build path so bad it isn't funny. The current changes to aatrox create a identity crisis because of a couple of things. Firstly aatrox wants to do damage except he can't without damage items because his w got nerfed. So you need at least 1 ad item. Secondly he needs Hp and tank stats as well because his healing is now based on it and he has bad base stats so he isn't destroyed in 1-2 spells or hits. Thirdly he also needs attack speed because he also has terrible base attack speed without his passive up, and it takes 9 attacks and 2 spells to toggle it. However he cannot build this all at once and he is currently suffering for it. Seriously his highest winrate build is 22%. Previously you could build one damage item and rely on your healing (as it used to stack with ad) to keep you alive till you built some resistances. Now most champions either dominate or get dominated when behind but aatrox's 'domination' was frankly not as strong as others. Don't get me wrong he could 1v2 when ahead but so can champs like illaoi and darius. It doesn't make it broken. When people where complaining about that, they were talking about how hard it was to build on aatrox when he was behind. You needed resistances yet you were useless without them and if you built damage you would die in 2 seconds. That's why he was feast or famine. He HAD to be ahead to be successful. If he was even or behind he would more than likely be destroyed by the champion that only had to focus on a simple yet effective build. The changes they made especially to his w only increase this problem making him have to have certain items to do well yet leaving him completely vulnerable in the early game so he has no hope of getting the items before the enemy starts outscaling you. http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Top (the item build stats, between masteries and damage composition.) Now i don't think the rework is complete garbage (at the moment it is but the idea behind it isn't that bad) the passive and w is the problem. If they revert his attack speed so its independent to the revive and attack damage and revert the w changes I believe that aatrox will be in a good spot. I may be wrong and he may need additional balance changes from there and maybe nerfs, but i reckon that would be a good place to start. Honestly though thanks for the reply, you brought up some really good points, especially how the levers work. However i have to completely disagree with the w changes, they were not the source of the problem and shouldn't of been touched in this rework at all. Sorry if there are any grammar mistakes its a bit long.
: No, what we argue about isn't the fact that he still needs buffs after his changes, it is that Aatrox is in a healthier and in a state that is easier to balance. I don't play much Aatrox at all but I did get to play him in multiple PBE games. Furthermore as someone with official schooling in game creation I do have a pretty good idea of what is involved in balancing. I saw an Aatrox main saying that removing his heal AD scaling made him less balanced when that is most of the reason he is never allowed to be strong. We aren't saying that he is in a good spot balance wise, we are saying that he is in a good spot for future balance, two very different things.
So putting all his power into a single passive or ability that makes him either extremely weak or extremely strong is a good idea to balance a champ. Genius certainly worked well with vlads q.
: What do you think we could say that would help? Meddler already announced that he's most likely going to get hotfix buffs. Responding to super inflammatory threads where they're just looking for blood isn't something that really makes me feel like my opinion is valued. We already understand that people are upset -- but that's why we're working on those balance changes.
All we are asking is that you actually take our concerns into account. That is part of the problem and why many people who like aatrox are complaining. Your not going to get rid of the people just hating because they can but you can alleviate the pain the aatrox community is facing right now you just have to look at it from our perspective. The posts riot has made so far have pretty much all been on aatrox hate threads that are basically saying shut up, don't complain nobody cares. Like seriously the first rioter post was on the a OMG YOU THINK RITO DON'T KNOW thread. You think that there wasn't a better thread to post it on? Like any of the threads that had a diamond player or a main talk about whats wrong with it? That just increased the annoyance in the community. Then almost all the questions about aatrox were ignored in a thready literally called aatrox mini update.... Then a ton of OMG MAKE THE AATROX COMMUNITY shut up threads started to appear which was also extremely annoying. Plus the fact that its almost impossible to actually have fun with the new Aatrox. Sorry if you were harassed or felt like the threads were personal attacks, but this whole situation was handled very badly and needs to be remedied quickly. People just want to play the champ they like and frankly that champ feels like shit and isn't fun to play at the moment. Edit: see this shit right here we are getting downvoted for no bloody reason. Do you people doing it think that we are going to stop posting because of downvotes?
: > [{quoted}](name=dimiondo,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jVYYh7PE,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-03-10T00:32:23.567+0000) > > The rework is shit and will be shit till they revert his attack speed and w. The rework was literally just a buff to half his kit and a nerf to the other half. He plays the exact same. The differencw is that this rework was a nerf in disguise while the darius rework actually reworked how he played to be better. > > Ok i don't think i explained myself right > > Aatrox has a problem called identiry crisis. He has multiple things he wants to build to be optimal. These are health, attack damage, resistances and attack speed. The problem is that if you focus too much on anyone of these its bad for aatrox. This is why tanktrox and full ad were generally bad builds. Eventually people worked out that a bruiser build was best for him which was a mix between everything. > > Now rework comes along and messes this up even more weakening everything about him bar his q. He is now more reliant on hp and attack speed because of the changes to his w and passive. But also needs more damage as well because of his reduced w damage as well. Basically there is no good way to build him now. This is why the rework is a failure. It didn't remove much or any of his problems and made the ones already there even more prominent. Or you know... they could have left him as he previous was there's just no pleasing everyone again, I don't necessarily want to hear about it because... 1. Its been like ONE WEEK (not enough data to say anything) 2. He's going to get reworked later right? ... so....
Its a 39% winrate... In a year. Not leaving him in this state for a year would be nice.
: his new kit is awesome way better than the old carnage it was this fits better in the champions reform
I take it you never played the old one then.
: > [{quoted}](name=dimiondo,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jVYYh7PE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-09T22:33:35.028+0000) > > Oh no you heard about aatrox once in 3 years when he got a shit rework. Oh the humanity D: going to be honest here do you rather more vayne, yasuo bitching instead? This rework is shit ofc I'm going to complain. And yes i play the fken champ. Aatrox is too weak right now, but that does not imply the rework was shit. Darius was dog shit when his rework dropped too, and though he is generally on the stronger side he has proven to be a successful design. Give it some time.
The rework is shit and will be shit till they revert his attack speed and w. The rework was literally just a buff to half his kit and a nerf to the other half. He plays the exact same. The differencw is that this rework was a nerf in disguise while the darius rework actually reworked how he played to be better. Ok i don't think i explained myself right Aatrox has a problem called identiry crisis. He has multiple things he wants to build to be optimal. These are health, attack damage, resistances and attack speed. The problem is that if you focus too much on anyone of these its bad for aatrox. This is why tanktrox and full ad were generally bad builds. Eventually people worked out that a bruiser build was best for him which was a mix between everything. Now rework comes along and messes this up even more weakening everything about him bar his q. He is now more reliant on hp and attack speed because of the changes to his w and passive. But also needs more damage as well because of his reduced w damage as well. Basically there is no good way to build him now. This is why the rework is a failure. It didn't remove much or any of his problems and made the ones already there even more prominent.
: I don't want to hear about Aatrox anymore
Oh no you heard about aatrox once in 3 years when he got a shit rework. Oh the humanity D: going to be honest here do you rather more vayne, yasuo bitching instead? This rework is shit ofc I'm going to complain. And yes i play the fken champ.
: you left out the main point of my comment - > that wins lane by pressing E repeatedly obviously it's fine if he's a draintank, but cutting out half of the sentence is silly and unproductive.
Uh you realise that you forced him to do e spam more coŕrect? In fact you buffed it while reducing his trade potentional by auto attacks. You reduced his sustain making trades unfavourable for him and his damage output on his w making his all in worse. Better yet you made him have to spam spells to get his passive making him more likely to harass with e in lane...
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dimiondo

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