: She's a little strong, but her sustain damage in fights is pretty down. She's a utility carry in the same style as Jhin.
As a Jhin main, I approve of Jhin comparison. She's amazing to play as you are not forced into the usual crit-speed adc builds. As for her balance, she is currently only slightly too powerful - but that might just be my impressions as people don't really know how to counter her yet. I agree that her sustain damage is low, and I can add that her "escapes" (root and invisibility) have a very long activation time. Basically, she can be countered very easily by burst assassins. She could be protected by a disengager support, but that leaves the lane with quite low firepower. Also, she is absolutely terrible at farming under the turret, as her attacks have less speed than turret shots. What I'm saying is: don't let her slowly harrass you down in laning, burst her down, and you win.
: > [{quoted}](name=GTHeavy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=69zlERjR,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-17T10:30:05.950+0000) > > While theoretically very aggressive warding + defensive turret-hug play would counter this, I can't be bothered to 110% tryhard every game. Not all players are diamond+, and even in plat this feels severely restricted and counter-intuitive to play against. This is one of those "unfun mechanics" that Rito wants to prevent. > I was almost ready to agree with you, until I read this part. If you think those things you mentioned constitute "110% try-harding" then I have to question whether or not you actually belong in plat. These things aren't difficult, nor are they restrictive. They are things you should be doing EVERY game, whether you're against Shaco or not. In ranked matches especially, you're expected to "110% try-hard" every single game. You did a good job of listing some of Shaco's current problems, but then you ruined it all when you basically said "Yeah, I COULD counter Shaco, but I'm too lazy, so Riot should nerf him instead". It's not only horrible reasoning, but you're also implying that playing the game properly is unfun, which is the kind of thinking a bronze player has. And Riot shouldn't balance the game around what bronze players think.
Fair enough on the "I should definitely try-hard in ranked" part. But this still does invalidate his problems.
: Twitch and Evelynn are for a strong case. They both do not announce their arrival unless they are within your vision till they become invisible. Evelynn can be noticed by her W kiss which makes a pink effect on the screen and plays her voice in no specific direction (meaning the sound is directly heard even if your screen is away from your champion's current position). As for Twitch, it's a bit of a stretch. He's a ranged champion and you don't seem him until he attacks you at his specific auto attack range. Camouflage was designed for melee champions so they don't appear right in front of you at the cost of a longer duration.
True, but Twitch and Evelynn both have drawbacks. Twitch only has slow, and can be somewhat reliably escaped from even if you missed him coming. Evelynn does have cc, but she has to announce herself to use it. And in both cases, these become visible when coming near champions. As you're saying - camo is for melee champions, but Shaco benefits hugely from being in melee yet still gets large invisibility durations. Sad.
: I just want to point out that Shaco does in fact have an indicator when he uses his Q. Though its not a very good one. When Shaco Q's you will see a small puff of orange smoke where he was standing from when he Q'd. this smoke can be seen even if he is hidden in bushes or the fog of war. Like i said its not a very super helpful indicator but it is there.
Well, thank you. It's something. Although I would find it more intuitive if the indicator was more visible, since usual Rito practice is to shout about everything in huge red letters.
: "i know the proper way to forgo Shaco's aggressive early game ganks but im not diamond and cant be bothered to use my brain everygame to circumvent this so just nerf it becasue im a north american plat player and clearly i understand game balance more than anyone" buy sweeper lvl 1 and sweep shaco boxes put a ward in tri to counter lvl 3 shaco cheese pink ward for when you want to fight revealing any boxes in area or that he puts down the problem is not shaco, the problem is you shaco is a gimmick champion and has an easy solution to literally every play he can make, you are just an NA player and NA players refuse to evolve cringe department from me
I'm from EUNE lol :D . But nice try, you funny NA man. And thank you for the suggestions, I am sure that your diamond-ness grants you infinite wisdom. Go cringe yourself.
Charmy Bird (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=fròstý,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=69zlERjR,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-10-18T10:27:55.380+0000) > > You cant put pink wards in every spot on the map and he can see it just as easily as you can, and since its a blink he can go in any direction he wants and you wont know, especially if you put down the ward and he actually went the opposite way. I'm not saying to fill the map with wards but to carry a ward and when an akali uses her shroud then u pop the ward and be able to have a fair fight because now akali uses shroud and theres no counter. If they're not willing to do that at least remove akali movement speed buffs from her shroud and her passive. I just hope for some counter to stealth because there's rl none. Yea u can see them with lens but u can't attack them
Akali's invisibility has an obvious location, which clearly demonstrates when a counterplay is required. For Shaco, you can't just "place a pink when Shaco comes", because his invisibility allows him to come from so far away that you don't even know he's near your lane. And as frosty said, even if you have pinks pre-placed, Shaco can just as easily fall back, and then approach from a different direction. Even approaching from turret-side (instead of flanking) is viable with 3 seconds.
Saezio (EUNE)
: They are nerfing him. You didn't hear?
Good to hear that, thanks :) . I don't follow League developments much - I want to play a game, not to participate in never-ending Beta for free.
Miudmon (EUNE)
: That's being rather disingenuous. shaco has nowhere near the damage of... well, most of your examples, especially the actual assassins, so he really can't assassinate as easely. to demonstrate with the actual assassins of the group, **Shaco **at 6, e max, full combo, 30% target with backstab... three aa backstabs and 5 solo box aa's to be generous - **400+1.9 bonus ad + 2.1 ap** In the same/a similar timeframe **Akali** at 6, q max, two q's, one double e, two passive procs - **338+3.2 bonus ad +3.2 ap ** **Kha** at 6, q max, Two isolated q's, one w, one passive - **579+6.6 bonus ad** **Talon** at 6, w max, one simple qw combo, passive proc - **370+3.1 bonus ad** **Pyke** at 6, q max, q and e hit - **270+1.6 bonus ad + significant cc** **Rengar** q max, full combo, passive q, and valuing the auto reset inherint in those as about 75% of an auto attack - **300+1.5 total ad +1.8 bonus ad +65% attack speed for 5 seconds +0.8 ap ** in all cases except pyke, who has pretty damn significant cc and survivability to compensate, shaco plain and simple has less damage in his base kit than the others.
Him being a better assassin was not my point. Indeed, he does not have that much damage. The problem is preventing his ganks, as extensive invisibility + blink can go around pink wards easily. Basically, if Shaco gets any kind of early lead, you have to stay tucked in under turret in all lanes, with little other counterplay.
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