Pinboard (EUW)
: This is perhaps the worst balancing "suggestions" I've ever seen in my life. **- Range reduced from 500 to 350.** **- Akali no longer flips backwards, looks more akin to a kennen Q** Let alone you ignoring the very concept of combos, but you thinking turning her into a cannon minion that gets out poked by everyone including tanks.... Just... {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}}
I wouldn't say "my whole life", but it definitely is a contender for the worst of the week. Can't say worst of the month, as he's got some competition with the guy that said that every week, 30 random champions should be made unpickable automatically. EDIT: Add the guy stating that Assassins shouldn't have mobility.
Jaspers (EUW)
: Then a warning should be enough, you know, something simple like "Yo, you need to own the skin to use this, yeah?" Or something as formal. We've seen alot of people mention this exact problem since they started doing this stuff and it still happens.
Why? It's obvious what a chroma is, you can't use a chroma for something you don't own yet.
Glory97 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Jng Account,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GQAW4Tmg,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2020-01-27T21:45:15.793+0000) > > Can we stop this myth? Majority of champs that were problem in proplay, were/are insufferable in high elo soloQ as well(Azir, Kalista, Akali, Aatrox and to some extent even Tahm and few more)... My argument is still valid though. When azir was extremly powerful the average silver player couldn't really handle his kit.
And why should they? Azir is supposed to be a champ you can't play unless you put in the time. That mentality of "every idiot has to be able to play the champ" is toxic and needs to go.
DiPiStyle (EUW)
: I understand your points, but again, I think the scopes both you and Tribbles have on are too short sighted Again, if I understood well, your points are these: 1) Every champion needs skill expression 2) With the changes, most champions will be nothing but a stat check 3) Numerical changes need more variables to truly balance the champion Let's begin with the first one 1) Every champion needs skill expression The issue with such statement is a preliminar one: how much skill expression is enough? You brush aside "general skills" as if they don't correlate with the champion at all and all that matters is how much you can do with X champion. The greatest problem in your answer (and mainly in your description of Akali) is that at its basis there is the following statement: as long as I'm good, I'm not supposed to be at a disadvantage. This would be 100% flawless if we didn't account the fact that it's a pvp game. It's not the videogame "Godhand" where the game gives you all the tools to never get hit and stunlock enemies. It's an ARTS game where you fight against your opponent with both of you piloting a character with its own strength and weaknesses. Now, here come into considerations 2 points: 1) depending on your strengths and weaknesses some general strategies are more suited to you than others; 2) depending on your strengths and weakness some champions/concepts are BOUND to counter you. However, this doesn't happen for a very simple design flaw: avoiding damage is safer than tanking it. When I first spoke about creep, i did not mean simply the damage one, but also the mobility one. Consider this: most of the most discussed champions are those that are both safe and able to deliver high amount of reliable damage, while immidiately after there are those with just reliable damage (see, Aphelios, but that's a whole discussion by himself). Now, here's the question from before, but slightly altered: should the fact that a champion has access to mobility and damage allow it, through skill experience, to mostly discard the efforts of his opponents where his worth can be measured in general play skils (in this case, for example, counterpicking)? Because if your answer is "yeah, they should counterpick", then I raise you another question: why with certain opposing champions it is more of a matter of choosing to counterpick them instead of them being choosed to counterpick? Yes, there is a reason behind astronomical ban rates (while they don't have the last word, they help) Skill expression by itself cannot be allowed to make or break a champion, for the very simple fact that, as it is happening, all the other champion choices will end up towards those picks that offer the least weaknesses when played optimally. By following your reasoning (and in effect you directly admitted it), anyone who doesn't counter the champion is bad. However, this is an online game. While skill matters, it is NOT everything in play. You cannot disregard the fact that certain designs (the ones we tried to address) offer less agency for the opposing player when the odds are more stacked towards one end. You cannot disregard the very same "good people" at high level when they admit that certain champions can be abused more than others So, again, our point still stands: skill expression is important, but it can't be allowed to polarize the state of an online game when the game in discussion is about strategy (it is called ARTS for a reason) 2) With the changes, most champions will be nothing but a stat check Now, here we're entering an interesting topic. You claim that Akali will turn in this way into a stat check. However, a question: isn't she kind of one already? The stats given by her abilities make her able to outrade most opponents, or am I wrong? Or maybe one champion is allowed to be a stat check only when enough of a skill ceiling is given? I do not think your definition of a stat check is right, as well as the tentative to apply it to the proposed Akali. If we follow your reasoning, then every assassin is a stat check, but hear me out: every assassin brings something on the table WHILE STILL (if balanced) bringing accessible means to counter them (or, in better words, enemy agency) The rework we thought of kept some of her traits, but also tried to still keep the general idea, behind assassins, of needing to commit instead of having multiple saving nets. There is a reason why most of the current picks cannot trade against Akali. Your answer might be that she counters them, but in this case I want you to give me a honest answer: how many champions in the current meta (which means, elegible to be picked for the lanes she's in) are counters and how much disparity is there between her counters and those she counters? If she has more countered than counters, then we have a problem Again, with the stat checks you brought as an example there is one little problem: they all have general ideas regarding countering. Either they have limited means to approach their targets (example: no means to go past walls) or have currently some problems (as we DID include Yi in the rework). So yes, invisibility, a free dash and 3 conditional dashes are, in our opinion, more than enough to allow both enough skill expression, as well as not force her into "stat check" status, all this coupled obiovusly with our means to recalibrate her damage 3) Numerical changes need more variables to truly balance the champion Here is the problem: your way to see numbers is too much superficial. Example: if I remember correctly, Graves was once THE go-to jungler. To balance that out they reduced a part of his stats (the damage probably?) to affect his clears. You see where am I going? The numbers we refer to are not just skills ones, but also the very ones that make a champion: attack damage, movement speed, health, starting resistances and so on. I mean, you as well brought the Irelia autoattack range as an example. Your point both applies and does not apply here because even if we use a reductivist point like yours (10 is good), you still didn't add ALL the other variables to it Our major point is, again and again, this: if the problems are the numbers, they only need recalibration; if the problems are the kit parts, they need to be reworked on; why? Because a broken kit will ALWAYS be more difficult to balance than a broken number I hope I did answer your concerns. However, I'd like to hear more of your general view instead of both nitpicking my points as they serve you better, both offending certain kinds of players because apparentely they're scrubs in front of your superior skills. I do know that Akali nerfs are problematic, but we think it is like that also because we believe in a different approach. As a last word, if you REALLY think what we're saying brings so many problems, you can always share this on r/akalimains, I'd love to hear the opinions for other people as well Again, thank you for your time. I do appreciate it
I'll try one last time to explain myself. This may be a bit messy as I'm losing patience. Generic knowledge doesn't fully translate to skill expression because it's not something specific. If my trading pattern, say Garen, since he's one of the most stat check champions in the game currently is this: press Q > aa enemy > press E > follow enemy while spinning > press W to go out or press R to kill. All the skill expression Garen has is "who do I Q?", it's not when, nor why, it's who. Because after Q, unless you got like Ahri ult to be able to get away in a very long distance, you die. There is no deviation, either Q > AA > E > R or Q > AA > E > W away. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no skill expression there. Sure, the way I stay back is more unique to him, as I'm waiting for the passive, but knowing when to go in or not, is not skill expression. It's simple knowledge. I either have the stats to kill you when I go in, or I don't, there is no other scenario. Simple as that. If my only option on Akali will be to go in or not, and by that I specifically mean towards the enemy champion, it's not skill expression. The trade patterns will be too binary to allow skill because I can't use them in any other way. Let's look at an example, comparing the live version of Akali to your version of Akali. Say enemy Lux has 600 HP, I have 500, so I can't afford to get hit by more than her E and 1-2 autos, if she hits Q and E, I die, but if I only get hit by E, I have a chance to kill her. Just a scenario. With live Akali, I can use my R1 to bait her Q, by that I mean moving towards her then R1 to dodge her Q, E to get a tag and passive on her, E2, AA, Q, AA since her E alone can't kill me yet, hold R2 until she starts ult, R2, AA and get the kill. Obviously, it won't be as easy, it's just an example, but it's something I'm able to do. Your version of Akali won't allow it. All Lux has to do is hold her Q because I don't have anything to dodge and close the distance. On live version, I'm behind, but if I play it perfectly, I get a kill, if I fail, I die. Your version doesn't have that. She either is too impatient and throws Q and I side step it, then I get the kill, or I don't do anything and she forces me out of lane with E because I can't kill her. I have no agency. Why did I say it's easy to balance her if you balance her only for high elo or only for low elo (please don't)? Because there is a precedent, 3 to be precise: Azir, Ryze and Kalista. All 3 were nightmares to balance, then one day, Riot goes like this: "we decided to only balance them for high elo". What happened afterwards? The average Jhonny from Plastic 12 can't play them, but they are balanced. They aren't oppressive anymore, mains had (for Ryze and Azir, Kalista had a different issue) around a 53-54% win rate, which was nice, they made pro play appearance without being busted, everything was nice. What did it took? To refuse to make a middle ground. You either had to get good, or play another champion, simple. And that's what I want for Akali as well. You seem to think that "skill expression means I have no weakness", no, that's not it. Akali has weaknesses, lots of them, elo difference is a thing, sure, but overall, Akali was perfectly balance before patch 9.23, she had a 48-49% win rate, 6% play rate, 20% ban rate, in Challenger, the same place she's a problem now. Skill expression doesn't mean I have no weakness, it means that if I'm good enough, I can go even in lanes that should be stomps, but not fully win them unless the opponent makes mistakes, skill expression means that if both players play it perfectly, we're equal at the end despite the fact that the match-up is bad for me. It doesn't mean "I need to win every lane". If I use my Akali W offensively, you have counter play, don't stay in it, then go ham when it's down, I don't have it for 20s. If I'm forced to use it defensively, I can't go in as efficiently so again, you can go ham when it's over. It's a tradeoff, exploit it, don't ask others to hold your hand because bad. You talked about "if Akali has counters more than she's countered by", so here are 8 different scenes: mid/top, plat+/challenger 9.22/10.2. Win rates above 52% means she wins the lane, between 49% and 51% are skill match-ups, and bellow 48%, she loses. - Mid, Plat+, 10.2 - - 38 match-ups - - - Akali wins 7, Xerath being the easiest, Rumble being the hardest of her winning match-ups. - - - 6 Skill match-ups, with Vel'Koz being even at 50% and Veigar being the hardest of her skill match-ups. - - - Akali loses 25 match-ups, with Orianna being her easiest of the losing lanes and Pantheon the hardest. - Mid, Plat+, 9.22 - - 39 match-ups - - - Akali wins 2, Irelia being the easiest and Sylas the hardest - - - 1 skill match-up, Ezreal - - - Akali loses 36 match-ups, with Nocturne being the easiest of the losing ones and Malzahar the hardest. - Mid, Challenger, 10.2 - - 18 match-ups - - - Akali wins 9, all at 1 game, so 100% on all - - - 1 skill match-up, Yasuo, at 50% - - - Akali loses 8 match-ups, with Syndra being the easiest, all others are 0% win rate for Akali - Mid, Challenger, 9.22 - - 46 match-ups - - - Akali wins 20, Lucian being the easiest, Diana the hardest - - - 5 skill match-ups, - - - Akali loses 21 match-ups, with Qiyana being the easiest and Pantheon the hardest. - Top, Plat+, 10.2 - - 42 match-ups - - - Akali wins 8, with Pantheon the easiest, and Rumble the hardest - - - 6 skill match-ups, with Sylas the easiest and Lucian the hardest. - - - Akali loses 28 match-ups, Teemo being the easiest, Yorik the hardest - Top, Plat+, 9.22 - - 43 match-ups - - - Akali wins 4, with Irelia being the easiest, Tryndamere the hardest - - - 7 skill match-ups, Cho'Gath being the easiest, Aatrox the hardest - - - Akali loses 32 match-ups, Jayce being the easiest, Maokai the hardest - Top, Challenger, 10.2 - - 19 match-ups - - - Akali wins 7, 6 being at 100%, and Sett at 66% - - - 0 skill match-ups - - - Akali loses 12, Renekton and Aatrox at 33% win rate, everything at 0% - Top, Challenger, 9.22 - - 37 match-ups - - - Akali wins 14 match-ups, with Garen being the easiest, Jax the hardest - - - 3 skill match-ups, Qiyana the easiest, Kayle the hardest - - - Akali loses 20 match-ups, Lucian being the easiest, Heimerdinger the hardest. So except for mid, in Challenger, since all are at 1 game, could be fluke on some, there isn't and wasn't, a place where Akali counters more champions than she has counters, so by your definition, she's decently balanced, maybe a bit weak. Every players should have the potential to play any champion, not the ability. Riot proved with 3 precedents that that is possible, if they don't try to look for a middle ground. At how much Akali is losing in match-ups, I mean, 39% win rate in challenger top lane and 45% on mid, with 46% in P+, the way you nerf her will turn her into a stat check because she already struggles, and the only things you can buff on her are damage, no-one wants Tank Akali back, no-one, not even me, and that was one of my most favorite builds on her, so either buff damage to ensure she can kill, or she doesn't do enough, and she has no option to outplay, she can't use her spells to dodge anything, the passive is just Sheen, so contributes to 0 outplay. I made a whole thread regarding outplay and counterplay, go read it, as it's obvious you have no idea what those are. You can outplay a Zed by predicting where he throws his spells or he can outplay you by dodging with his Shadows, you can outplay a Kat by predicting her stuff or she can outplay you by dancing, etc, but for your Akali, there is nothing to outplay for either side, she press R on you, does passive point blank, press Q, passive point blank, E, passive, Q, passive, R2, dead. At best you can dodge her E, but nothing else, but if she's that close to you, hard to do. That's what I mean with "stat check", neither side has much agency, Akali having 0, the other wiffs his spells and Akali can go in, or they don't and she's useless, afterwards, she either has the damage to kill you, or she doesn't. You don't understand balance, at all, you have rose tinted glassed on the idea that "everyone has to be able to play her and play against her". Her counterplay is there, both champion wise with her counters, and player wise, you just need to be good. The reason why high mechanical champs are so rewarding right is that Riot wants a middle ground, but they shouldn't do that, right now, the only way to get that middle ground is to give enough damage so bad players can carry, but if you remove that so you need to get good, problem solved, it was done with Azir, with Ryze, and it proven successful, but the players didn't like it because they don't want to put time. You don't understand what skill expression means, you barely understand what counter play is. Just read that thread: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/7qh7rwZW-lets-talk-fair-game-counterplay-and-outplay-boards-vs-reality I'm sorry if I'm harsh, but I lost my patience with you. I tried to explain, but you don't understand. You say that base mr/armor or hp/5 are good ajustments, no, they aren't. If the balance is close, yes, they can be, but if all else you have is damage in that kit, as simple kits aren't allowed to have much else, they are meaningless. Akali can have 0 HP regen, 0 MR and 0 Armor, if she has the damage to kill you, they mean nothing, as you're dead, that's how important they are. But if she doesn't have the damage, she either has the stats to go tank, which is toxic for someone like her, or she doesn't have the stats and she's a minion. Your Yi change means nothing as he either has the stats to kill you or he doesn't. Most of your changes either mean nothing, or ruin the champion completely because you have no understanding of how balance works.
: Enforcing - Some new rules for people to play ranked - current system is flawed
What do you define trolling as? Offmeta or stuff you don't like? If my friend locks in Kha'Zix or arek'sai support do you call it troll? What if I tell you he has 60% win rate with Rek'sai support in over 100 games, with most of his losses being exactly the people thinking he's trolling, while his Kha'Zis support has a near 70% win rate in close to 60 games, same reason for most of his losses. His stats show he's not trolling, so how can you define a troll based on pick alone? Had a Feedamere in a game a month or so ago, he saw the enemy pick Soraka top and started insulting her for trolling, after he went 0-6 in 10 mins to that solo lane Soraka he started Flaming me for not ganking his lane. So again, how do you define a troll pick?
: > [{quoted}](name=IP Masquerena,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=YJj562Eo,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2020-01-27T12:09:50.422+0000) > > I don't recall, were you one of those over sensitive ones who removed comments even for stuff like "kid" or such? > > I know I got 2 comments removed for having the word "kit" and this is the exact quote from the Discord discussion I had with one of the mods: "The first comment was removed for containing "kid, you're delusional" and the second had "kid, grow out of your fan made theories"" > > And like a few days ago had another comment removed for "I'm not saying there are good, just better than you", because that was considered harassment. No, but depending on the board I could see why calling someone delusional would get you in trouble at least.
> [{quoted}](name=ChickenWrap,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=YJj562Eo,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2020-01-27T14:17:28.601+0000) > > No, but depending on the board I could see why calling someone delusional would get you in trouble at least. It was in one of thread about a guy who can't climb out of Silver after over a thousand games, crying how it's a "forced 50%", after I prove him with statistics that it's not such a system, even doing math for a scenario where such a forced system would exist and it showed that its still impossible to make that system, he calls me a caveman, claiming that if I think that skill wins games I'm dumb, and claims that not even challengers can get out of bronze because of such a system, then I call him delusional, point out all the smurfs and "iron to diamond" or "unranked to diamond series", he claims that those are fake and that its not a "hard forced 50%" but a "soft forced 50%" where you can go a bit over or bellow 50% but can't get too high, so I say the 2nd line, to grow up.
: Since I'm no longer a mod, does that mean I get to shitpost again?
I don't recall, were you one of those over sensitive ones who removed comments even for stuff like "kid" or such? I know I got 2 comments removed for having the word "kit" and this is the exact quote from the Discord discussion I had with one of the mods: "The first comment was removed for containing "kid, you're delusional" and the second had "kid, grow out of your fan made theories"" And like a few days ago had another comment removed for "I'm not saying there are good, just better than you", because that was considered harassment.
Sucction (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=IP Masquerena,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2PxMhLUq,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-26T17:54:59.239+0000) > > What's the problem if she can dash around while dealing 0 damage? > > A mosquito is annoying but it can't kill you. Because she can still do almost all the game-breaking stuff she does now. Also, I said half, not 0.
Because her damages are already low if not ahead or able to repeatedly combo Q - AA - Q - AA. Reduce them to half or less, and she has no damage.
Laura ß (NA)
: I would realy love for a Riot balance team member to tell me how poppy is balanced
Mind showing us the game? None of the tracking sites I used show you playing a game in the last 4 days. Also, no offence, but an unkillable Poppy in Iron is nothing unheard of.
Sucction (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=metroman450,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2PxMhLUq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2020-01-25T17:43:24.592+0000) > > Well Sett needs a little nerf but I wish the person who designed Sett has also designed Akali. {{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}} Sett is great design and I love it He's simple yet effective, has adequate and obvious counterplay, without being especially strong early or late. Yes, his numbers are currently overtuned, but that is *so easy to fix* compared to an entire kit being busted like Akali. Halving Akali's damage wouldn't stop her from dashing away 3 times and then stealthing and dashing AGAIN.
What's the problem if she can dash around while dealing 0 damage? A mosquito is annoying but it can't kill you.
DiPiStyle (EUW)
: Ok, only now I noticed the Akali profile picture. Although it is bad that I noticed, since from one side I'm tempted to see your posts as written with bias, from the other I'm tempted to answer accordingly. If I end up doing so, please do correct me, thank you From what I can judge, there are certain points in your reply that I think may organize in this way to answer in a better way: 1) My intention is to make the champion easier to play against 2) My intention is to help people play against her 3) My intention is to turn the champion into a stat check 4) My intention is to keep ALL numbers the same 1) My intention is to make the champion easier to play against This is correct, but I'd reformulate: my intention (or our, to be more precise) is to give a champion clear strengths and weaknesses. I'm not saying this equals to destroy the skill necessary for the champ, the difference between good players and bad players must be preserved. However, this is the point: to understand when the problems come from skills and when from balance. The actual problem with Akali is that played at her peak she has very few weaknesses compared to the strengths she brings on the table. There was a time, mostly represented by the Assassin update (which still brought up other problems, to remember that the patch we're proposing it's not perfect), where Riot tried to give each assassin a specific role determined by what they could bring on the table. Katarina? Aoe assassin reliant on kills. Talon? High roam accessibility. Fizz? Lock from afar on one target to then engage and disengage. The point being, while bringing strengths they also brought weaknesses, with the problem arising ESPECIALLY when supposed weaknesses weren't actually real (see Tank Fizz/Ekko) or when they were too real (see Le Blanc). This said, WIth Akali we're trying to do the same: reduce strengths without exacerbating supposed weaknesses. One major strength we addressed is the movement speed, since it is pretty clear that avoiding damage is the best form of safety, especially when combined with the dashes and the invisibility. Yes, the ring passive is for skill expression, but we deemed it useless if we wanted to remove the mov speed, which also brought up with the change on the damage on passive. W change is mainly to not force her to use W to actually deal damage, so that in turn she can rely on just the Q and the E for damage and keep the W for safety. R change is again in terms of safety: it still can be used as such, but needs more skill expression to do so 2) My intention is to help people play against her If with this you mean giving her CLEAR strengths and weaknesses so that you can properly work on when needed, yes. If with this you mean that, as you suggested, people are bad, then no, considering that it is extremely disrispectful to think such thing. Especially if we account Akali stats at higher levels 3) My intention is to turn the champion into a stat check Our intention was not as such. There is still skill expression in our idea: you must think about keeping enough distance so that you can proc your passive, the management, the added mobility with E and R (remember, R travels a fixed distance in our vision, which means that you can use it to also go past the target), the stealth with W that also provides bonus health regeneration. When you tell me "stat checks", the first ones I think of are champions like Mundo, Trundle and SInged, which I do not remember have either dashes or invisibility 4) My intention is to keep ALL numbers the same This is probably the most important point. When we proposed the changes, we considered Akali in a blank state: imagine the champion, with the skills; remove ALL numbers from them, no cooldowns, no energy costs, no ratios, no damage, nothing if not the effects of the ability (what happens when I click X); then, after applying the changes, start building the numbers up coherently to what a champion should do and what should not, remembering to give her yes proper weaknesses, but also proper strengths. For example, you say that in our change Akali doesn't have enough energy for more than one Q. This applies if we keep the Q numbers as with the current version. One can increase the cd and reduce the cost, increase both cd and the cost, reduce both. This comes after, It does not enter in our proposal scope, we do not know as of right now with this meta state the exact numbers. Same thing with other skills: how much bonus range on passive? How much energy refound? How much health regeneration? How much R cd? "Dunno, it comes after" I hope that I answered the points I think you brought up. One thing that we may have made a mistake on is the slow: if the plan is to hit your autos after a skill, the slow can help. I'll look forward what you think of it, as well as what may others think of
Ok, I seem to understand why you have such a grasping problem. I want to state from the beginning, if any of the following things I say offends you, please contact any person that cares. Another thing I want to mention is that yes, I'm an Akali main, and no, it's not bias what I'm talking about. I mained her for the past 3 versions of herself. Seeing from the responses you gave both me and Tribbles, you seem to lack the understanding of why things are as they are, that coupled with bad game knowledge is the root of the main problem we have with your suggestions. You think that said Akali version you made has skill expression because....I don't know. >you must think about keeping enough distance so that you can proc your passive It's called spacing, and every champion can and should do that. Why are people pissed that Irelia has 200 AA range instead of 150-175 as other melee? Because if she spaces correctly, she can attack them but they can't attack her. AA range spacing is not a display of skill with a character, but a general one. Current Akali's circles after spells are a display of spacing skill with Akali because she's the only one that has it. So yes, you remove one aspect of skill expression. >the management Management of what? Resources? Cooldowns? That's something every champion has to manage (HP is also a resource, even if you don't have to pay it for spells most of the time). Again, that's nothing related to Akali and skill expression. >the added mobility with E and R (remember, R travels a fixed distance in our vision, which means that you can use it to also go past the target) You have made no changes to her E, so there is no "added mobility to her E". Regarding the ult changes, that's also a removal of skill expression. Your vision is clouded by something, because currently, R also travels a fixed distance. No matter where your cursor is, it still travels it's whole distance. Again, being the exact same "skill expression" you talk about, but it also makes it so she can get her passive if she plays it perfectly. Without the passive it has no skill expression in it. Making both targeted, on top of removing her passive removes all champion related skill expression. Simple kit =/= skill expression. Skill expression in simple champions isn't related to the champion but to the player, and it's called "damage foresight". You either have the damage and you get the kill, or you don't and you die. Match-up knowledge on when to stay back or go in? That's also not something related to your character specifically. When your tool is either "go in or don't go in", there's no skill expression. The difference between a bad Garen and a good one (like there is such a thing) is simply that the better player knows his damage. That's all. If knowing your damage is skill expression, I'm sorry but you're delusional. Having the ability to use different combos based on different circumstances or to know what skills you need to get a kill on a specific champion and which you don't is a sign of skill expression, how you perform your combos, and in Akali's case, her passive dance, that's all skill expression and you want to remove it in order to make her easier to play and play against, but she's not a problem to play again. Good players can play against Akali, the high elo stats are a whole different game, because what they got in Challenger is something you will never have in Bronze. The highest Akali I played against was a Diamond 2 in normals, she had around 100k master and was playing only Akali, and guess what? I won that lane. Why? Because her weaknesses are clear. The only difference is that you're not hand held to them, you got no-one to hold your hand while you win the lane, you either are able to do it yourself, or you aren't. If you aren't, shut up and get good. Akali is not a champion you can play against on auto pilot, your "making weaknesses more clear" is exactly that, making it so you can play against her on auto pilot because you're bad. A stat check champion is what all the changes you want to give to her will do to her. >the stealth with W that also provides bonus health regeneration. See, this is a problem. If she doesn't need to use it to trade, it will turn her into female Garen. Why is another reason why Garen is so oppressive right now? Because he can take bad trades then just heal up. That's what Akali will be as well. Takes trades, either good or bad, then removes all the damage you did to her by just sitting around. And all those things combined are a stat check. If the stats on W are too low, it's a useless ability, if they are too high, you can't win trades against her. There is no middle ground on where "the stats are just right". If her passive is just a Sheen proc, again, STAT CHECK, either has the stats to kill you, or she doesn't. Stat check champions aren't champions that "have no dashes or invis" but champions that bring one thing to the table and nothing else. Yi, Feedamere, Foodyr, Garen, Mundo, those bring one thing only, damage. You either have the stats to kill them, or they kill you and your changes will put Akali in the same spot, because she has nothing else. Curent Akali has the tools to work with lower stats. Why did I say that the changes you made with her current numbers will turn her into a minion? Because she doesn't have enough numbers, but her kit allows her to function. The only way to make her function is to up her numbers drastically. You say up her CD? Then the base stats have to be high, she's an assassin, high CDs means more base damage and scalings. No matter how you balance the CD, Cost and damage, if those are the only things you can change to the champion, it will either have too much power or too little. You told Tribles that "his changes are just numerical", yes, they are all numbers, but what do those numbers do? Let's use an example. Say you want to reach 10 points where 10 is perfect balance, but you must use 1 even number and all others are odd numbers. Where anything above 5 is more power in the kit and bellow is less. Say the even number is damage, as your champion should always have some sort of damage in the kit to be able to at least either clear jungle, harass the opponent or farm, hence why the even number is mandatory to have. On Senna, if she has say 5 places where you can change numbers, cooldowns, damage, cc, healing, costs: - 1 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 1 = 10 - 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 5 = 10 - 4 + 1 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 10 You can reach 10 in multiple ways. The look at something like Yi where you got only 2 things where you can change numbers, being cooldowns and damage: - 4 + 5 = 9 - 7 + 4 = 11 Because Yi has only that, either has the damage to kill you or he doesn't. You either have too much damage for the cooldowns, or too little damage for the cooldowns. Let's say you have 4 places to balance Yi, damage, cooldowns, costs and mobility: - 4 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 9 - 2 + 5 + 1 + 1 = 9 - 6 + 1 + 3 + 1 = 11 - 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 8 No matter how you change the numbers, there aren't enough numbers to change to get the correct balance: either doesn't have enough or has too much. The less numbers you can tweak, the more stat check a champion is. See the problem? You can't fine tune something with too little levers to pull. You just don't have the space, they either have too little, or too much. The simpler the kit and less skill oriented, the more harsh the balance on numbers is. Either too much or too little.
DiPiStyle (EUW)
: The problem with your point is that it assumes we have all the numbers necessary to balance the champions. There is a reason why I added the X element (I did forget to add it to Akali, my bad). Also, no, the intention is not to make a "female Garen" Our intention was to make simpler kits (whose abilities still synergize with each other) because they are easier to balance: balance nightmares happen when the kits are so convoluted that anything from there can make or break the champion. Why people think Akali is a bad design? Because she has all the tools to turn most situations that should be her weakness into manageable ones. It doesn't matter how much you change the numbers, the mechanics themselves will still allow her to have an edge over others I'm not bringing it into a good/bad players argument, considering that it is the basis of such games that better players win. However, you cannot deny me that certain champions have less weaknesses than the others. There is a reason why damage creep is discussed upon. There is a reason why people talk about a meta. The idea, utopistic you may say, was to make weaknesses and strength more clear for each champions (or most at least. there were others we wanted to add, but we did not aggre upon them) But how you make weaknesses clearer? By making the champions with simpler design. Adding stuff over stuff to skills make them always more powerful, which in turn make them also more difficult to balance. The fact itself that Yasuo was designed to need critical chance will always make any possible change to critical chance weighted. With simpler kits, if an ability finds itself lacking, you can change the number while reducing the overall impact that may have. There is a reason why most junglers are balanced in this way. That is also the reason why we decided to change both Akali R in this way, to avoid giving too much agency to certain skills when there are others that still weight things in play I do not think this rework as well as the others we thought are bulletproof, but as well we do not think that it forces such a disparity between good and bad players. Or better, the disparity is still there, the difference between a less and more skilled Garen can be seen (unless you truly think otherwise), only that it is not that polarizing About your specific thoughts on Akali, the idea was that instead of giving her free energy from W, she regains it from mostly one element like other energy based champions. Given the concept, you then work around the numbers: add cds, lower cds, more energy, less energy, more damage, less damage. The important thing is that when MECHANICALLY we weight what she can do and what cannot, the result is not pending towards only one end
You seem to not comprehend balance at all. When all you can balance are damage and cool down, the champion is a stat check. Because there is nothing else to balance, that champion isn't balanced and never will be, stat checks are either OP or UP. Also you don't seem to understand why Akali has what she has. Her passive circle is there to balance it out while the ms is there to ensure she can actually proc if played well. It's a skill gate. It would be a net buff removing everything but the empower auto, because it removes all the need to space correctly and judge your fights. The energy on W is another thing to balance her out, not to overload her, it makes it so she is forced to use it when she wants to trade, when she uses it, you got 20 sec to trade with her when she doesn't have it nor does she have enough energy to use more than 1 Q. Your suggestion would make her into a stat check as you remove every outplay potential from her kit. She will either have the stats to kill you or she will be a glorified minion if she doesn't. Thats the problem with simple kits. They are harder to balance than more complex kits because you don't have much to cut away. Also, your "make counter play more clear", why? Like really, why? People shouldn't get it easy just because they are bad. Her counterplay is easy to spot if you treat Akali for Akali instead of playing against her on auto pilot, which is what most people do. Sure, she's strong now due to Conqueror and Presence of Mind but she still has a good amount of counterplay. And you're the one that kept saying "remove handholding" so why add handholding there then?
DiPiStyle (EUW)
: The 201 Years Patch proposal
I have only one question? What's your problem with complex champions? No offence, but that mentality is toxic and bull from the ground up. "Hey, I can't play X, make it easier to I can play X without putting time". I'll use Akali as the example, she was made to be a high skill cap hard to play champion, so why is she a problem to balance? Because Riot wants to reduce the disparity between good players and bad players. If you balance her only for the good players, she's easy to balance, if you want to kill her and make her a female Garen in terms of complexity, she's also easy to balance, look at her old self, that's what you get. There is no middle ground, that's the problem. "Balance nightmares" are just that, the attempt to bring complex or braindead champs at an "I can win with this no problem" for both high skill and low skill players. So why are you trying to do the same, make problems where there are none? Good players won't be able to use that Akali kit, those are all garbage changes. You buff the passive but she can't kill people because she's balance around having energy refund on her W, but if you remove that, she simply won't be able to fight without her ultimate, her passive gives too little energy, but you also gut her ult just because you feel like it. Your "rework" simply makes her a stat check and removes all skill. You can't manage energy on that, her passive simply isn't enough and that's something you'd know if you played her for more than 2 games. The only way for her to actually kill someone with your rework is if she has her ult, otherwise she's a minion because she simply won't have the available damage, but if you buff her damage to compensate, you get a stat check. So yea, explain, why is it a problem that some champions can't be played by bad players? Just apply the same patch From Software told players to apply, done.
: I find that hard to believe when it's specifically written as "Counter's Gold Difference", but I may be wrong. Considering U.GG doesn't show lane win rate, just game win rate, it can't be stated who actually won the lane except for that stats, and as I said, it's stating that "Counter's Gold Difference is +500 gold". To me, that means that Akali's lane opponent had more gold in the lane, and seeing the Sett match-up, I'm even more so inclined to believe that what I see is right, as I know how stupidly hard that match-up is due to Sett's low W CD.
That's why I said in a previous comment that it should show more than gold/xp @ 15, and instead show both those along cs at 5, 10 and 15 mins. By showing that we have an easier view when the match-up is easier/harder. Sure, Akali and other assassins can roam and help with objectives, reducing the gold difference, so if we see like a 50 gold difference at 15 mins, can we actually say what happened? If we see more stats at different times in the game, we can see actually who wins the lane. If there's a big cs and gold difference at 5 and 10 minutes, but that difference in gold is much lower at 15 minutes, we can actually see that the lane itself is indeed a counter, but when the laner starts roaming, it reduces the difference and can help the laner come back in the game.
: I find that hard to believe when it's specifically written as "Counter's Gold Difference", but I may be wrong. Considering U.GG doesn't show lane win rate, just game win rate, it can't be stated who actually won the lane except for that stats, and as I said, it's stating that "Counter's Gold Difference is +500 gold". To me, that means that Akali's lane opponent had more gold in the lane, and seeing the Sett match-up, I'm even more so inclined to believe that what I see is right, as I know how stupidly hard that match-up is due to Sett's low W CD.
Which is kinda inconsistent, other sites show that both definitions are true.... League of Graphs for example states that in Darius vs Nasus, Darius indeed has that more gold, but others such as the Sett vs Akali are shown to that Sett indeed has more gold than her, and U.GG has it as Akali vs Sett, counters gold difference showing -gold, pointing out that in my reasoning, Sett has more gold, while your's has Sett has less gold. As for lane win rate, I guess having more stats as in: CS count, Gold, XP @5, 10 and 15 mins would be much better. Sure, having less gold from CS is one thing, but one kill with or without a jungler, then taking a plate or two can remove that gold lead really easily based on how much the gold lead was, so seeing more stats than just a "this is how much they had at 15 mins" would be much better and more accurate.
: Any plans on hitting some of the dominant junglers? Ekko, Lee Sin, Olaf, Elise have been running rampant and pushing other choices out of the jungle.
Elise as a whole doesn't need nerfs, she kinda is in that situation where she's good when the rest are bad, so simply making others better will turn her down a few notches. That's how it always has been for her.
Kiitzu (NA)
: For Akali: making her passive a bit easier to activate, like making the circle smaller, would help her in lower elo. I feel like her passive is probably the area that most lower level people have the most trouble utilizing to maximize her damage, myself included. If it was potentially reduced in size by 30% or so it'd lower the complexity of moving in the best direction, to moving in good directions. Right now it feels like if you are off just a little bit about which way you move to activate the passive then you don't get to utilize the damage.
That would require nerfs in other areas as people who already are very good on her will get a bigger buff from it than what the lower elo players will. So if you do that range reduction, the damage needs to be reduced as well. No offence, I have nothing against you, I just don't like it in general when people want to make stuff easier to play instead of getting better because it removes the need to improve and rewards the mentality of "keep crying and it will change". Again, nothing against you in particular.
: Quick Gameplay Thought: January 24
May I ask one question? What is your opinion on champion difficulty when it comes to an old motto for League of Legends, which is "anyone can find a champion to play and love"? Most of the time you guys are talking simply about "reducing the disparity between good players and bad players" and to do that, you take away from the good players, and my question comes from the fact that that motto is no longer taken in consideration. I like complex champions, but they keep getting removed or changed so everyone can have an easy time playing them, instead of them being balanced so only the people who put in the time can reap the rewards, which is how it should be if the champion is classified as "complex". Why not just push the bottom part of the skill levels up instead? There was this old Dota 2 guide about mid lane that I've read, and it had one statement that I remember to this day, "if you want to increase the skill of the players as a whole, you make the lowest end go up, that alone will force the rest to become better or be left behind", and that guide was doing exactly that, exposing lots of mechanics that lower rank players never heard of or even thought possible, and teaching them how to use them. Why can't we get the same here? Help bad players get better and be able to match the better players by showing vids in the client from the best LoL content creators such Skill Capped, Pro Guides, Game Leap, Virkayu, Neace, Nastee, Aatrix etc, add quizzes during the time players search a match.
aIRaymond (EUNE)
: you're reading the stats wrong here, what you think is ori having more gold and xp is actually akali having the lead. you can figure this out by looking at other matchups if you'd like.
I find that hard to believe when it's specifically written as "Counter's Gold Difference", but I may be wrong. Considering U.GG doesn't show lane win rate, just game win rate, it can't be stated who actually won the lane except for that stats, and as I said, it's stating that "Counter's Gold Difference is +500 gold". To me, that means that Akali's lane opponent had more gold in the lane, and seeing the Sett match-up, I'm even more so inclined to believe that what I see is right, as I know how stupidly hard that match-up is due to Sett's low W CD.
: Yea I remember him mentioning it on an episode of his unranked to Diamond series. I meant to watch the game but I don't think I ever got around to it at the time. But he was definitely convinced it could be done. He says multiple times over several of his videos that anything can work in Plat and below.
He did make it work. Was a fun watch, so I won't spoil it for you.
aIRaymond (EUNE)
: >I do know U.GG, as I stated, the main reason why I used the one I used is because the boards went bonkers when I didn't use that one for a match-up, so hey. I thought you said people went bonkers about the "blitz app" which is blitz.gg. >And well, even U.GG states the same as I did, Ori beats Akali, so....there's that as well? according to u.gg akali has both an xp and gold lead leaving lane >Let's say your other card is a 6, the flop is 2 2s, an ace, a king and an 8. Your Qiyana is a 2, but your opponent has a Kalista that's also a 2, but their other card is a 4. yes poker has a luck element to it, when you have 3 2s its still a great hand you want to play but when you just have a opening 2 its a shit hand. >the vast majority of people I see talking about OP.GGing their team mates before a game start crying how they know from the start that game is lost, that they have no reason to play it, etc. you're supposed to opgg people to dodge lost games not to cry about lost games, if you're not willing to dodge there's no point in checking your team. you should be telling people to dodge when they see bad teams not "just close your eyes bro". >but I once won a game where I went all in with offsuit 2 and 10! yes it happens, you want to have statistically the most advantageous chance at winning not the worst though despite it being possible to win with both.
>I thought you said people went bonkers about the "blitz app" which is blitz.gg. I didn't say I used U.GG, I just said I know it. People were mad that I didn't used the one they gave. I did use Blitz and got told "their site is better". >according to u.gg akali has both an xp and gold lead leaving lane There's no challenger games, and just 1 Grand Master game for this patch, and for Masters, Orianna has the more gold, the +/-@15 is what the opponent has, and since Akali is champ who's match-ups I'm looking up, the opponent is shown having the more gold. I changed to 10.1, since the current patch is just too new, and these are the result, for situations with more than 5 games, as let's be honest, 1 game can be too situational to be taken in consideration. Challenger - 1 game, not considered Grandmaster - 14 games, Ori has 334 more gold and 348 more xp at 15 mins Master - 10 games, Ori has 115 less gold but 290 more XP Note: for me this indicates she was ganked a bit more in some games, as she was still able to force Akali out lane to gather the XP lead, but couldn't get as much farm due to ganks. Just a speculation, the number of games is too low, 1 or 2 hard stomps like the one in Challenger can tilt the scales. Diamond - 421 games, Ori has 152 more gold and 54 more XP. Platinum - 1300 games, Ori has 118 more gold but 40 less XP. The match-up is scarce in higher elos, but even so Ori is shown to have the superiority. Lower elos, I did state, lack of game knowledge causes Ori player to misposition, take bad trades, etc, giving Akali wins in lanes she shouldn't have.
aIRaymond (EUNE)
: well generally speaking u.gg is used for stats as it was stated by riot to be the best one. >you're seeing the champs they pick, your "hand" is those champions. to go back to this if I see a qiyana on my team in a gold game its a hand you'd usually fold, lets say qiyana is a 2 for example here but now if you had some magical foresight that let you know that there would be 2 more 2s in the flop you'd absolutely play that hand. the great thing about league is you can have that info by looking up the player and seeing if its the average 14% wr gold qiyana or someone that's actually good at it.
>well generally speaking u.gg is used for stats as it was stated by riot to be the best one. I do know U.GG, as I stated, the main reason why I used the one I used is because the boards went bonkers when I didn't use that one for a match-up, so hey. And well, even U.GG states the same as I did, Ori beats Akali, so....there's that as well? Now, to the poker example, let's elaborate a bit more. Let's say your other card is a 6, the flop is 2 2s, an ace, a king and an 8. Your Qiyana is a 2, but your opponent has a Kalista that's also a 2, but their other card is a 4. Now, if my memory serves me, in that situation, the winner is the person with the higher card as their 2nd. You can see the opponent's cards, but you can't see how the flop will treat them or you. But as you said in your previous comment, yes, the main reason I said it is because many people tilt way too much when watching those stats. If you're someone who can be calm about it, then it's a good thing, but if you're someone who goes from Anivia to Brand upon checking it, maybe it's simply better not to check at all. I just used a generalization simply because the vast majority of people I see talking about OP.GGing their team mates before a game start crying how they know from the start that game is lost, that they have no reason to play it, etc. Those players will often times refuse to help the team and cause the game to be lost mainly because of that, as the other team has a bad hand as well. I had a game where our Lux mid fed Syndra and rage quit, Yi and Sivir were spamming FF@15, and we won it. Me and Senna made up for it, sure, I didn't had a big score, I was playing the role of bait and making sure the enemy never stays as 5, meaning I occasionally couldn't get away, and Yi even went to all chat with "Report top", but in the end, we won. Had a Malzar a couple days ago straight up refusing to help me because "I was autofilled jg", now, I wasn't, jg is my secondary role and I'm quite good at it, but was having a bad game because of his reasoning of not helping because it's not my main role. We still pulled it off and won, but didn't change the fact that Malz and Shen (his duo) refused to help me all game. Shen always had ult for the rest, but always refused to use it on me, even when it would've been the thing that made the fight work. And the examples in lower elos can go on and on. Most people are toxic towards their team mates because of the OP.GG stats. They refuse to help, etc. Being a team mate is lower elos is much more important than being right about the fact that the ally you had is a feeder. I mean, how can your ally be a feeder that you had to carry but couldn't and he lost you the game if you help him and he's not feeding?
aIRaymond (EUNE)
: what you're talking about here is "don't opgg your team mates if you're an emotional player" not "don't opgg your team if you're playing low elo". I can tell you from personal experience that without dodging your winrate going from unranked to diamond will suffer by about 20%~ and take you much longer to complete the climb, I'm assuming this is even more severe if you're actually playing at your elo. >If you already dodged 2-3 times, you still have to take the game yeah na you really don't, also there's always the option of locking disco nunu :^) >Right now there aren't enough games of that match-up in Challenger, but there are in Masters, Ori wins most lanes: https://www.counterstats.net/league-of-legends/akali/vs-orianna/middle/master you use some real weird fucking sites my guy, any "real" site will tell you that akali is ahead in both xp and gold early game in the matchup.
>you use some real weird fucking sites my guy, any "real" site will tell you that akali is ahead in both xp and gold early game in the matchup. Ok, please bring the sites. I normally use Blitz, which also showcases Ori winning against Akali, but when I stated the use of Blitz, the boards said the app's not good and that site is the best one, so I present that one here. If you have better ones, please do.
aIRaymond (EUNE)
: nah just kill the champion just like they are doing, it doesn't happen often that people stand behind the balance team in their decisions but this is one of those times.
Meanwhile there are many more people that hate Akali stating that the nerfs are too bad. Point being, currently many more Akali haters are against these nerfs than supporting them, and you should realize that if people hating a champion say its too much, it more that definitely is. But hey, bias is bias, can't change it.
Kuponya (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Highwiseene,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qIj3N1A,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2020-01-24T04:52:40.170+0000) > > There's no counterplay to his wardhop flash R --> Q combo You mean besides flashing, using a mobility spell, or a cleanse?
If he gets to cast his R on you you can't move since it roots you for the rest of the animation that leads to the kick and it has a decent cast range. So sure, if you got cleanse you could move and cause him to kick you in a different direction but you still get kicked.
SëttUps (NA)
: RIOT PLEASE CONSIDER, STOP REMOVING AUTO CANCELS FROM CHAMPIONS.
The game gets balanced in such a way to reward worse players as they are the majority. People cry Riot doesn't listen, but they do listen, they listen to the crowd that cries to make stuff easier.
: > [{quoted}](name=IP Masquerena,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7qh7rwZW,comment-id=000200030000,timestamp=2020-01-24T07:31:35.989+0000) > > Care to explain? > > There's a lot of logic in there, unless your own beliefs are the exact opposites of what I'm talking about and you won't accept otherwise, but then again, that's a YOU case, not a "thread has no logic". You're entire argument is a strawman. You start by posioning the well. You resort to reductio ad aburdrum multiple times. It's really unclearly what you're actually trying to argue because you're trying to argue multiple things at once that aren't really related.
The unclear start is a joke on the fact what a "fair game" means is different for everyone. Everything is related to different definitions on what "fair game" mean and how they are disproven by the fact that outside factors that can't be controlled by the match making tilt the scales.
: I mean, can you say the same about Reddit as well?
Kai Guy (NA)
: Here is a conversation topic I find interesting. Complexity vs Overloaded. Lets take a look at Akalis Passive. If we remove the circle, remove the energy, remove the extra range, remove the MS. The ability basically is just a {{item:3057}} . Hit a spell empower her next Auto. I would argue ultimately that it would overall be a buff, despite the removal of many aspects. Many players however think that the more "ands" you add to a sentence make an ability "OP!" and "overloaded" {{champion:875}} for example will have folks complain no doubt about his W. Being aoe, and true damage, And a massive shield, AND NO MP COST!. Very curious how to get folks to engage in discussions where realistic usage is considered rather then on paper best cases.
Would be a big overall buff, because spacing would no longer be required for Akali. The move speed is needed if you keep the circle, because if most of the time she has to run away from you, how is she supposed to even get her passive proc off? Many times it's already hard even with the MS from passive, especially in laning stage, but that comes down to spacing and timing and location based on minion wave, minions themselves, etc. As for Sett, I think he should be gated by cooldowns. Except his E, everything in his kit scales so well just be base cooldowns, let alone the fact that he builds CDR early and plenty. Think the nerfs I'd give him would to have his shield start decaying as soon as he gets it, not after the ability deals damage and have that thing get an actual cooldown. Sure, it starts at 16, which ok, but goes down waaaay too much, to actual half, 16/14/12/10/8, making it have a cooldown of 4.8s at the max rank of the ability with 40% cdr. Which could be another point of discussion between overloaded or not, the ability is strong because of how many times he can use it.
aIRaymond (EUNE)
: >don't use OP.GG to "check team mates" this is like telling poker players to not check their cards before making decisions lmao you are also talking about the akali ori matchup like ori hard wins it while in reality akali beats ori in lane at every elo, the reason oris win rate goes up is because she out scales bad akali players. it also makes no sense to talk about statistics when it comes to champions like akali, azir or irelia because the mass majority of people playing them can't play em.
>this is like telling poker players to not check their cards before making decisions lmao Close but no cigar. First I want to say that I specifically said that if you're in low elo you shouldn't do it because it can only lead to make you tilted. And that's simple really, your opponents aren't challengers, if you think you're good enough and deserve the climb, take away as many aspects that can make you tilted. If you already expect your team mates to be bad, why you need to get a confirmation of that before game? If you already dodged 2-3 times, you still have to take the game, so why get tilted? Keep your dodges for actual trolls, and just let it be how it is, if you get bad team mates and you expected to have them, then it's nothing out of the usual, while if they are good, you're pleasantly surprised. Let's say you are on a 10 game losing streak because you got bad team mates, you check the 11th game and see all your team mates on losing streaks. Can you prove they aren't the same as you? If you'd take that game and they were just like you, it's gonna be a good game for you, but if you just dodge or decide "they aren't worth helping" and you lose. OP.GGing at lower ranks breeds more toxicity than it's needed, many players would actually refuse to help someone because of what they saw on OP.GG, and again, can you prove that they are doing bad because they are bad or because you refuse to help them? This last reason is why so many people in lower elos "do bad" even if they don't deserve it. They aren't good enough to keep up without help from the team, but the team refuses to help them because of what they saw on OP.GG. And back to the poker comparison, you're seeing the champs they pick, your "hand" is those champions. You already see your hand and can and should make decisions based on that in lower elos. Sure, if you're close to Diamond or above, OP.GG can be helpful and should be used, but in lower elos, your team mates are as good as you, otherwise you wouldn't be there for long in the first place. If you're good enough to climb really fast, then your allies don't really matter, so it's pointless to OP.GG, if you're not good enough to climb, focusing on your team mates' stats on OP.GG will just make you lose more because you start games tilted causing you even more problems to climb, and if you're just slightly better, why not use the games as learning opportunities or limit testing and be more prepared next time? Overall, OP.GGing in lower elos is contributing to more losses than wins, and if you want to climb, taking away tilt influencers is a good step. Yes, I know OP.GG can be helpful, but that's for higher elos, not low ones. As for your final statement on how "Akali beats Ori in lane at every elo", that's BULL{{champion:35}} and stats prove it otherwise. Right now there aren't enough games of that match-up in Challenger, but there are in Masters, Ori wins most lanes: https://www.counterstats.net/league-of-legends/akali/vs-orianna/middle/master Wonder why Akali has a higher "come back from bad lanes" than Akali if she wins most lanes? Gosh, that's a paradox, like, how can you win lane and lose lane at the same time? Only thing Akali has going over Ori in a general game is number of kills, but gee, another "inconsistency", an Assassin having more kills than a Control Mage during a game, hodatot? So no, stats prove that Akali DOESN'T WIN LANE against Ori at higher elos, even in Plat she still loses lane to Ori. Only places where I found that Akali beats Ori in lane consistently is Bronze and Silver, with Gold being iffy,
: > [{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7qh7rwZW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2020-01-22T23:49:12.281+0000) > > Why is this downvoted exactly? This is well structured... It's just a wall of text without any real logic.
Care to explain? There's a lot of logic in there, unless your own beliefs are the exact opposites of what I'm talking about and you won't accept otherwise, but then again, that's a YOU case, not a "thread has no logic".
: If you loved the old one more, why do you favor this one? That seems a but contradictory.
I love the old one more because I didn't get to spend as much time with the new one, mostly because for quite a while after her release, I simply couldn't get to practice her, every jungler and support would hard camp me, occasionally even the top lamer would come and at the time, I just couldn't 1v2-4 them. As for why I don't want her back, she was too binary. She was fun to play but she was just a stat check. You either have the stats to beat her or you don't.
xelaker (NA)
: op has a history of telling people they suck and nothing is wrong with the game. All while being anywhere from diamond to silver in rank from season to season. That's my guess anyways, I recognize the name a little bit and his posts are always like this. He's not exactly wrong, but he also never really acknowledges that Riot is a lot to blame.
I never said nothing is wrong with the game, If you recognize my name, you should probably also recognize that I'm one of those who stated multiple times that they hate the direction in which the game is going, I personally loathe the mindset of "everything has to be played by everyone". But that's what the community wants, there was a guy in a thread like a month ago stating he want stuff to be easier to play because he has no intentions to get good, he just wants to have fun. Why I make these threads? Few reasons really: - I have fun seeing the reactions. - I'm tired of seeing how dumb the comments on some other threads are and I'm trying to explain what is what and why. - The only way to raise the skill level of the playerbase is by pushing the bottom upwards. Sure, I'm not friendly most of the time, I'm not perfect, as something had to be done to compensate for beauty and smarts, but hey, what can I do?
aIRaymond (EUNE)
: because the points are fucking stupid probably.
: You're wanting and reinforcing just as much as an ignorant & narrow-minded echo-chamber as the people you criticize. Notice, the number of downvotes on people who tell you that you're wrong, provide fair reasons & get no response. Seems suspiciously similar to the threads about how Shaco needs to be buffed because 52% that grows with rank really isn't enough.
Such as which comments? I usually try to reply most of the time to the people disagreeing with me, but there is a point where I just get tired. Fair reasons? Again, such as? Also, I permaban Shaco, he could have a 0% win rate and I'd still ban him just in case.
: Considering your replies i think its quite clear whats your opinion xD So if i understand correctly yasuo gets special treatment because he is squishy? Other champs are squishy too but dont get this treatment. Yes he cant move during the animation but thats the trade off for everything a yasuo can do and trust me there is a lot of shit he can do while other champs can move and cast abilities. I mean if yasuo gets such a treatment because of an innate quirk (being able to basically extend a displacement) why doesnt em, idk, kled gain bigger hp regeneration when he is dismount? (yes its not the best comparison but it kinda works, both of them have a state where it helps them, yet harms them as well. One is immobilized and the other will be most likely 2 aa from dying. ) Yeah by default he is tankier. But if both of them are 30 hp, chances are that ww will die. Whereas yasuo wont get even targeted. Why give him such an advantage? They could just reduce the animation and be done with it. Besides correct me if im wrong but, the turrets shouldnt even target yasuo until he had dealt dmg. Considering turrets target champs when they deal dmg or trigger combat effects (https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Turret). Yasuo's ulti doesnt seem to count as combat effect (which considering the list it should, https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Combat_status).
>Considering your replies i think its quite clear whats your opinion xD Not really, I don't play him, feel free to check my match history. If you want, I can toss you a screen shot as well. I don't play either, just a fyi. I simply don't care. As for the Yasuo, his ulti deals the damage at the end. And well, again, what you think is fair and what is not is your own opinion. I don't have an issue with that, as there are other things that make him more annoying than he should be, but his ult isn't one of them for me.
Hayaishi (NA)
: IMO the fairest thing could be if autofill worked the same for both teams. If my team has an autofilled midlane then it should be the same for the enemy team.
They did say they are working on such a feature, also equalizing the number of auto fills per team as well, so if you have one, the opponents are guaranteed to have one.
: Akali main, please God don’t revert her. Just don’t gut her either. Some of those changes are ok, just don’t send them ALL to live.
Seconded. I'll never understand many of those supposed "Akali mains" asking for a revert. I loved the old one more than I love the current and yet I'd still rather have the current one over the old one. If they say just revert her because they are tired of seeing nerfs, then sure, that's a point, weak point but still a point.
: > I think the main problem with Sylas is the same with Akali, Riot trying to reduce disparity between good Sylas players and bad Sylas players by both making the champ easier while also keeping the higher damage/scalings. I feel like this doesnt quite answer my question. Why is it fair that sylas can get a strength of a damn tank (or a mage or a support), while keeping his identity as a skirmisher. And you miss entirely the problem with yasuo's ulti interaction. It literally positions him so he wont get turret shot. If i, as ww ulti at the edge of enemy turret, i will get shot. If yasuo ulti at the edge of enemy turret, he wont get shot.
"Fair" is relative. To quote Morticia, "what is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly". It is "fair" because it follows suit with the current balance mentality. If the balance mentality was different, maybe it wasn't fair, but as it is now, it is. Do I believe it is fair? For better or worse, I will withhold my opinion. And now regarding Yasuo, I did not miss the point at all, you just didn't understood the reply, and with Warwick, you chose a very poor comparison. Yasuo's innate shield nor Windwall stop tower shows and Yasuo himself is squishy for most of the game, especially to towers. Now look at Warwick, by default he is tankier, he get healed during his R and to top it off, if timed correctly, WW can have at least 35% damage reduction (based on ability's level) for close to 5 seconds, and that does reduce tower damage as well. What that means is that Warwick can enter the turret range, take shots and survive in the 1v1 even if it disables himself, while Yasuo cannot do the same, hence why he gets placed outside if you are at a certain distance from your tower when he casts it.
: While we are on the topic of fair game and counterplay, whats your opinion yasuo's ulti interaction with turrets on the edge and sylas ability to gain the ultimate of his enemies. 1 outright cheats the way the ability should behave while also being withheld from the players. The other gives the champion capabilities that his class and as a champ shouldnt have. He takes amumu/brand? Suddenly he can nuke your team and you cant group up (despite this being his weakness). He takes nautilus ulti? He can knock up your team and nuke your team. Just as im writing this i faced a sylas while i was shen. He took my ulti and gave his vayne a shield that shen can only dream off.
I think the main problem with Sylas is the same with Akali, Riot trying to reduce disparity between good Sylas players and bad Sylas players by both making the champ easier while also keeping the higher damage/scalings. As long as that mentality is existent, Sylas will be a bit harder than needed to balance, same as for others who have the same issue. As for Yasuo, well, he kinda disables himself as well, and while that true, in a 1v1 it is irrelevant that he can't do much either, in that fight isn't 1v1, then it does mean a bunch, similar to Malz in a way. I for one don't really find issues with them, except one thing for both: Yasuo's interaction with ToB and RH from Domination and the fact that Sylas can steal an ult you yourself don't have access to. I think that should be a thing for Sylas, he gets your ult at the rank you have it, or maybe even have the 2nd cast cost mana, not just the first.
2gudaiya (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=IP Masquerena,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7qh7rwZW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2020-01-23T05:28:39.761+0000) > > I haven't done one yet. > > What's on your mind? well i don't believe one can get across to the larger unknowing community how fair play, counterplay and outplays happen without going through mechanics first. raw ability, champion knowledge, range, conceptualisation and execution, comfort, spacing, what summoner spells even are, and how core archetypes look to conceptualise and execute their gameplay loops. but i wouldn't bother typing out explanations for them again lol, last guy that wanted to know didn't care.
Just give them this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKjY1WKL2gI
King Lego (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=IP Masquerena,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7qh7rwZW,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-23T06:48:10.728+0000) > > As I stated above, most plbalance problems come from Riot's desire to allow anyone to play everything because that's what players want. > > Few days ago soneone proposed a super good Akali rework idea that would make her balanced yet still challenging to play, but many in the community shut it down because "Everyone should be able to play her". > > A-Sol's rework? Reduce disparity between good players and bad players. Sylas? Same. Their goal for Akali? You guessed it, they want to reduce the disparity. > > But the main reason why hard to play champs and damage in general are so oppressive is to allow bad players to feel good and carry. > > As long as that balance mentality exists, we won't have good balance, but mNy don't want balance anyway. Everyone should be able to play a champ but that doesn't mean the champ shouldn't be challenging for the sake of bad players. But for Akali's case, her kit design is just horrible that she's just a mere overload lead more than complex even. Even aphelios is not complex despite being assumed to be hard. I'd agree that all players matter in terms of frustration and enjoyment but for the sake of being bad but still rewarding is just absurd. There's a saying "practice makes perfect". Like, I bet if I played Lee Sin, I would go 0/10 cuz I'm not use to him but as I pick up on him, I get better and feed less.
The way I see it is like this: (Gonna use the chart most tier lists have) There are 4 difficulty tiers for champions: easy, medium, hard, intense. Considering 50-52% win rate as the set goal, this should be the number of games required to reach that goal based on difficulty: - Easy: ~5-10 games. - Medium: ~10-20 games - Hard: ~25-50 games - Intense: 50+ Every player has the potential to stomp on any champion, if they put the time in it, but it would not be made easy for the bad. Either turn good or keep being bad. And regarding Akali, she was actually balanced between 9.19 and 9.23, and the rework in that thread made her balanced again keeping her slick and fun BUT punishing every bad mistake. That's kinda the point of having those difficulties, and if the balance sticks to that aspect, those intense champions won't be as punishing when mastered as now, because the high damage they have now, thanks to the "Jhonny from Plastic 12 has to be able to play them" mentality, they are too strong when mastered, but nerfing them results in everyone who's bad at them being worse, so Riot simply tries to reduce disparity instead of embracing it where needed. Most Akali's I see in my games tend to have decent scores, but they just can't win because despite their numbers allowing them to get fed, the player sucks at knowing what to do. Last Akali that wasn't me that I had in my team lost us the game. Sure, I made it harder for the team (thank you Riot) by having the game stuck in the loading screen and had to reconnect, getting to lane when Sett was lvl 4, but I made up for it, while Akali was fed, kept taking kills, but doing nothing with the gold, at one point even stating she needs farm and goes pushing bot lane, we die in our base as the enemy was attacking our Nexus towers and Akali is like "wtf team, why you fight when I'm not with you?" (when she was with us tho, she would either be the last to die by waiting for us all to die then going 1v2-5 depending how many were alive, or the first to die by going 1v5 from the get go). The get kills because the damage is high, but have no idea what to do with that lead and lose it. What Riot should nerf at her is that damage, not her outplay potential.
: 90% of low elo players have some kind of mental deficiency, something more bans can't fix. I have no doubt that at least 60% of low elo players would go 0-7 vs lane Ivern given half a chance. We gonna ban Ivern too? Funny, I remember this one time a YouTuber who goes by the handle JaySea was trying to de-rank an account so he can do an unranked to Diamond series. He showcased a game in which he went Soraka mid in the hopes that he would still lose even if he tried. The result? He won the early game going like 3-0. Low elo is filled with high grade trash, even in fuckin Gold. They will fail playing anything and playing vs anything. Sorry, but the only bans that would work is banning these shit stains themselves. Anyone who dies more than 6 times before 20 minutes should be banned from ranked for a week. That will solve everything.
Jay even had a "Tryndamere Support" game that he still carried.
: My understanding is that those words mean whatever the person screaming them wants them to mean... which is usually "That I am right and awesome and that any losses I have aren't my fault, but my wins are all pure skill". Really, this game is like 90% Dunning Kruger effect and 10% people playing less to win and more to make other people miserable.
TL:DR - rename game from League of Legends to Ego of Legends.
Warmas (EUW)
: This might get removed, because apperantly you can't say a diamond player is better than bronze in 2020. What you are saying is mostly true but most people who read it won't understand, that's a general problem with forums. But hint if you are trying to defend Akali you can forget about that :). She is one of the most toxic champions ever released, melee champions don't have any counterplay available they rely on akali walking up to them and not using W,E and she is called broken by every non-akali player both high and low elo. The community never wanted Garens, Draven is still one of the more skill required ADCs, they wanted Zeds, Lee sins but riot doesn't get why those champions work and make Akali. In short, I could go on with the Akali problem.
I said a Draven that doesn't have to catch axes. And I know, some people will never accept that maybe it's them that's at fault. And if you read bunch of my previous posts regarding Akali, I'm not defending her as in "she needs no nerfs", if they won't fix the stuff that made her broken when patch 9.23 hit, then she does indeed need nerfs, but what she gets are wrong ones. I made a whole thread about this a while ago. The nerf she needs are to Q and passive.
King Lego (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7qh7rwZW,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2020-01-23T00:45:46.944+0000) > > Many posters believe that Riot is the root of all sin in games and don't take well to hearing about player impact in a PVP game. Because gameplay generated by players is entirely in the realm of dev control. > > Also the OP has pissed folks off. Some folks just downvote a name if they dislike the poster regardless of content. As far as riot goes, they aren't that sinful but also not even complete saints. League has problems of its own and to be honest, they came both from the playerbase high demands and riot themselves. Apparently players wanted a fast paced match?? And we got it which I personally dislike and don't know why would someone would want a snowballing game. Assuming such thing even happened. And Riot's side is how their design philosophy is very questionable. The 200 year experience bs has gotten them at an embarrassing state if you ask me. I mean who even says that? Pro players are not the same as designers or regular players. For all we know, Faker can be a beast in league but his imagination is little to non-existant (Or in this case, pro players).
As I stated above, most plbalance problems come from Riot's desire to allow anyone to play everything because that's what players want. Few days ago soneone proposed a super good Akali rework idea that would make her balanced yet still challenging to play, but many in the community shut it down because "Everyone should be able to play her". A-Sol's rework? Reduce disparity between good players and bad players. Sylas? Same. Their goal for Akali? You guessed it, they want to reduce the disparity. But the main reason why hard to play champs and damage in general are so oppressive is to allow bad players to feel good and carry. As long as that balance mentality exists, we won't have good balance, but mNy don't want balance anyway.
2gudaiya (NA)
: i think you need to do a mechanics thread first, or have you already done that?
: It's a completely sound thread that isn't the usual mind numbingly stupid baby raging so we downvote it.
Logic? We can't have that on the boards. No can do boss.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Wanna point out that synergy and matchups are also impact on a fair game. A teamcomp w synergy and favored matchups vs a teamcomp lacking multiple classes and difficult matchups. In a "fair game" this match goes south pretty fast. I feel like you will understand what i am saying but gonna take a moment to define terms a bit. Synergy is champion interactions that add more power then the individual parts. when 1+1=3. Its interactions between kits that add to or simplify the best case usage of abilitys. Its {{champion:21}} With AOE cc teammates. Its {{champion:157}} getting to wombo off {{champion:54}} Its Ball delivery {{champion:61}} and {{champion:254}} If Riot wanted to force better team parity they have to Demand players conform to specific champions and comps. Most folks don't want fair games. They want to win 60-80% of their games.
The main part I was referring to when talking about "Fair Game" is exactly this: >Most folks don't want fair games. They want to win 60-80% of their games. Synergy is something I do plan to talk about in more detail in another thread, probably on Friday, as that one needs a bit more editing that these simple "Let's Talk" ones, but although synergy is something that is indeed needed for for a team to succeed, it isn't something that needs heavy description here, tho I can put it up there. Mind if I use an exact from you? This one to be precise: >Synergy and matchups are also an impact on a "fair game". A teamcomp with synergy and favored matchups vs a teamcomp lacking multiple classes and difficult matchups. In a "fair game" this match goes south pretty fast.
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