Hotarµ (NA)
: > I have plenty of intent to improve the game, however when you say anything constructive to about 90% of players you get either ignored or called out for "flaming", telling people not to do things a certain way is almost always looked at as patronizing regardless of intent. Speaking of intent, it is entirely within my rights to cite someone's stats, regardless of the intent - stating what is out there and plain to see, not something subjective whatsoever, is not an insult but rather a fact, regardless of how I said it. > Clearly not the same intent as you stated. Now, is it something objectively nice and positive? No, but that doesn't change the fact that I am stating facts. The worst thing I said was to call a player hardstuck, which, while not necessarily nice either, is not an insult and rather a fact. I myself could be said to be hardstuck, I've had multiple accounts that peaked at a certain elo and I never got them further than that. Just because something isn't nice, that doesn't mean it cannot be said or should be taken as an insult. Ultimately if your goal is to win, you have to work with people and be the bigger person. Flaming someone isn't going to get you anywhere (and only serves to set you up for punishments) but if you say something in a constructive way, you have a much better chance of reaching that person. It's not flaming when you're actively trying to help someone, at that point you should just mute the player and focus on what you can control. A false report doesn't do anything, there's absolutely no downside to trying to work with your teammates. It might be within your "rights" to cite their stats, that does not mean it's justified and not breaking the rules. >My purpose there wasn't to put someone down, but rather to render his opinion on the subject irrelevant, I personally don't take advice from lower ranked players with over 10 times my games played but carry a negative winrate. You don't get to cite someone's statistics with the sole purpose of rendering their opinion "irrelevant" and then claim that it's not negative. Work **with** your teammates, not **against** them. The way you said that was inherently negative. > People who play this game have this tendency to take every negative comment on their play as a person insult to their person, as if I, or whoever makes them, is attempting to ruin their very livelihood. Newsflash folks, you're not all streamers living off this game, and you deserve to be called out for making awful mistakes, you will never improve if everyone tells you you did fine when you flash flay a cannon minion. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, you don't have to coddle people and you don't have to be their best friend. You just have to not flame them. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has missed a flash hook or flash flay, that shit happens to everyone and "calling them out" for making that awful mistake only serves one purpose, to put them down and not help them improve. Saying "Thresh, that was dogshit, don't ever try to flash flay again" isn't going to improve the situation. Ever. > As for the last thing you said, yes, the overwhelming majority of the community is not in "high elo", regardless of where the line is drawn, be it plat, diamond, or higher. The problem here is that, and I am sure quite a few lower ranked players would agree, there are simply far more players who do not take the game seriously in lower elos; I use high elo as an example of player dissatisfaction because A) players at high ranks are the best we have at the game, B) they look at the game more accurately and care a lot more about soloQ. I'm sure quite a few lower elo players would agree with the idea that chat offenses are being punished too harshly in comparison to anything else. > > The simple fact is that in low elo resides a significant number of people who do not care whether or not they win games, they simply "play for fun", regardless of outcome. Different discussion though. You're right, that is a different discussion. Personally I do think those people should be playing norms and not ranked, but I don't have any control over that and others may disagree with it.
"It might be within your "rights" to cite their stats, that does not mean it's justified and not breaking the rules." That would be exactly what within my rights means in this context. As for wanting to win, if I really want to win a game more so than usual, I just mute everyone, instantly makes the experience easier for me since people most often don't type anything of note. "Saying "Thresh, that was dogshit, don't ever try to flash flay again" isn't going to improve the situation. Ever." Not something I say, or have a desire to say, however if you see someone fuck up a play dozens of times in a game, you start to lose confidence in their abilities. The issue here is that even when you tell people something nicely, it is taken as flame the majority of the time - I'm sorry but if I'm playing an AD that can somewhat safely stay in lane alone and play weak side, since my jungler has decided to split the map and play topside for... some reason, if my support keeps making awful mistakes and getting either , or both of us killed, I will straight up tell him "Please leave the lane, roam to wherever you feel is best", and I have had people very often respond to this by flashing in place in front of the enemy botlane. Sorry but people seriously need to learn they arent infallible. Better players can call you out for mistakes, and should be allowed to do so, and calling someone bad in a competitive environment should NEVER be labeled as toxic.
zPOOPz (NA)
: You have a choice to walk away. You don't have to respond to him. If you look at the lower right corner of every comment, there is the Report button if you feel the need. Unlike in-game, you don't have to put up with anyone on the board for X amount of time and you can walk away at any time.
You're entirely correct on that, but I'd love to try and understand why this person thinks that doing what he's doing is in any way or capacity NOT worse than what I did in game, I like understanding why people think what they think.
: Heh, alright, I'll leave it be. Sort of a side note, but I notice you've been pretty calmly explaining why the behavior was problematic and I'm curious, how often would you say that gets through to people? See, I've been thinking that these people will never understand why what they're doing is unacceptable, but do you have success with that on here sometimes?
Says the one doing something cited as unacceptable? Weird stuff
Hotarµ (NA)
: > Calling someone bad and citing their winrate is rulebreaking beahvior? So, you're stating that it is fine for them to be bad, to play poorly, to have awful stats and yet it is NOT okay for me to mention it? Sorry, that's not how logic of any sort works. This is where the conversation starts and ends: Your **_intent_ **is what matters. You are not trying to say "Hey, I noticed you have a _x%_ winrate. You should do _x_ to get better." You're citing that winrate and performance in order to put them down. By definition, you are being toxic and negative. You have no interest in improving the "competitive environment" because if you were, you'd be putting more effort into helping your teammates rather than beefing with them all game and trying to use their statistics to dismiss them entirely. You can try to spin it as having a competitive attitude, that does not change the fact that your intention was negative and the way you said it was inherently negative. > I do agree that it is easier to ban people based on filtered language rather than more complex ingame actions, but this has little bearing on my account's permaban, does it not? Well, I wasn't the one who brought it up in the first place. In your original post you said: "NOTHING short of praise can be said, you could have people openly trolling, griefing, wintrading, intentionally feeding, any of the above, and you will NEVER get punished for ANY of it, but god forbid you tell someone they shouldn't troll you? INSTANT permaban." Which I responded to talking about how they are banned, which is how that entire tangent started. >You yourself stated that nothing I said was filtered, I was simply argumentative and negative overall. The majority of players may be able to follow the rules, as am I the majority of the time, but people step out of line sometimes. The issue here isn't that Riot's rules aren't humanly possible to abide by, but the idea that people are dissatisfied with their rules, especially the higher elo you go and talk to better and better players. Even if that were the case, which I doubt and it would require substantial evidence to convince me otherwise, that doesn't change the fact that the rules are incredibly transparent and easy to follow. Skill level is irrelevant when talking about behavior and rule systems. [**Even so, only 10-15% of the community can be considered "high elo", everyone else is in Iron to Gold / Plat.**](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/rank-distribution)
I have plenty of intent to improve the game, however when you say anything constructive to about 90% of players you get either ignored or called out for "flaming", telling people not to do things a certain way is almost always looked at as patronizing regardless of intent. Speaking of intent, it is entirely within my rights to cite someone's stats, regardless of the intent - stating what is out there and plain to see, not something subjective whatsoever, is not an insult but rather a fact, regardless of how I said it. My purpose there wasn't to put someone down, but rather to render his opinion on the subject irrelevant, I personally don't take advice from lower ranked players with over 10 times my games played but carry a negative winrate. Clearly not the same intent as you stated. Now, is it something objectively nice and positive? No, but that doesn't change the fact that I am stating facts. The worst thing I said was to call a player hardstuck, which, while not necessarily nice either, is not an insult and rather a fact. I myself could be said to be hardstuck, I've had multiple accounts that peaked at a certain elo and I never got them further than that. Just because something isn't nice, that doesn't mean it cannot be said or should be taken as an insult. People who play this game have this tendency to take every negative comment on their play as a person insult to their person, as if I, or whoever makes them, is attempting to ruin their very livelihood. Newsflash folks, you're not all streamers living off this game, and you deserve to be called out for making awful mistakes, you will never improve if everyone tells you you did fine when you flash flay a cannon minion. As for the last thing you said, yes, the overwhelming majority of the community is not in "high elo", regardless of where the line is drawn, be it plat, diamond, or higher. The problem here is that, and I am sure quite a few lower ranked players would agree, there are simply far more players who do not take the game seriously in lower elos; I use high elo as an example of player dissatisfaction because A) players at high ranks are the best we have at the game, B) they look at the game more accurately and care a lot more about soloQ. I'm sure quite a few lower elo players would agree with the idea that chat offenses are being punished too harshly in comparison to anything else. The simple fact is that in low elo resides a significant number of people who do not care whether or not they win games, they simply "play for fun", regardless of outcome. Different discussion though.
Hotarµ (NA)
: > Aww. I thought this was exactly that place. Any idea where that place is? > That isn't allowed anywhere on the boards. > The punishment is good and deserved. It's bonkers to me that people don't understand that no matter how lame your team is playing, it's always worse to say rude or crappy things to them. Congratulations, doesn't give you the right to go out of your way to provoke and harass someone. Again, just move on please. If morals and good behavior are so important to you, offer constructive advice to this person in particular or be the bigger person and walk away.
No, this is what is done. He is happy to criticize my in-game comments, but then takes the first chance to take an even more negative and sadistic approach to his conversation with me while offering nothing of value in return. Fun times arguing with people who think toxicity is such a large issue.
: Hahaha you told him to report your and then you got banned. Omg that person must be so satisfied I'm legit jealous. Side note: it's amazing to me how people really trying to go RIGHT UP to the edge of what they consider to be punishable toxicity. Like, you were being a jerk here, no matter how crappy your team is. You figured that because you avoided the big no-no words you'd be fine, and free to be a jerk. After all, there's always people more toxic than you, so why would you get punished? Turns out that wasn't the case, huh bud? XD
I don't get why you're so happy and smug with yourself. I was mean to people? Sure, I wasn't being nice, but what they did to me in game far outweighs what I typed, remember, you can mute someone, no matter how toxic or annoying or whatnot they might be, but there is nothing I can do when my jungler decides to do drake 5 inches from my face while the enemy toplaner is solokilling me, nor can I do anything about him spamming an emote as I die. Toxic chat behavior is negligible when compared to toxic gameplay, teammates refusing to assist you in any way shape or form, supports picking mages and outright taxing entire waves off their ADC, people spamming emote on you when you die after they baited you, teammates openly refusing to cast spells just so you can die and they can have a laugh while typing out "please report X for inting" in allchat. Maybe don't be so smug and happy that someone got banned, it shows way too much sadism.
Hotarµ (NA)
: > There's no point in attempting to explain anything from my end, because we are having a conversation about a game company that thinks saying "youre bad" is toxicity in a competitive online experience. I've been banned on other accounts for even less than these logs, albeit this alone is utterly insane. Sure, league continues to be a popular game, but maybe one day people at Riot will realize what everyone and their mother has been saying for years, actions matter more than words. Especially when said words can be COMPLETELY ignored and actions cannot. One thing I'd like to point out is that you're not being duped or tricked here, the rules have been transparent from _day one_ and the consequences of these actions are very clear. You're supposed to work **with** your teammates. It's a team game, calling someone bad is the definition of toxicity/negativity. It's not constructive in any context. If you feel differently, that's fine. You're welcome to that opinion. But that isn't going to change the rules, if you can't abide by them then maybe League isn't the right fit for you. > But, as the meme says, it can't be us! It's all the players that are out of touch! Can't remember where I found the statistic, but Riot themselves have confirmed that the large majority of League players have never received any sort of punishment. Polls that have been held here and on Reddit also suggest the same thing. Statistically and factually speaking, Riot _isn't_ out of touch as the majority of players can abide by and agree with the rules. > Something people seem to lack the capacity to understand in general is that it is disturbingly easy to grief with no repercussions, but saying something about it gets you banned - a support can simply decide to not cast spells for the entirety of a laning phase and lose you the game alone, but will never get punished for it - however you will, if you say something negative about him/her. Because one is readily apparent and the other is not? Yes, someone _could_ grief by say, not casting spells or using them at inopportune times. You know who could also do that? Someone who is new to the game, someone who is trying out a new champion, or someone who is genuinely underperforming. If Riot is overly strict with the system, new players and underperforming players are unfairly punished. If Riot is not strict enough with the system, actual rulebreakers go by unpunished. It's not as black-and-white as something like a chat offense where you can simply check if certain words, phrases, or behaviors are being used. >This notion that a negative attitude should be reportable and punished is beyond delusional to me, it is a competitive setting and I am not allowed to be unsatisfied? What? What's next, gonna ban Faker or Rekkles or someone else from competitive play cause they cried on stage? This is just hilarious to me > I see this argument come up a lot, and the answer is always the same. You _do not_ have to coddle other people, you _do not_ have to be polite to them, you _do not_ have to act fake and be everybody's best friend. You just have to not flame them. It's that simple. Get upset with the state of the game, get annoyed with your teammates if you want, the second you start doing nonconstructive things (such as citing someone's winrate and then saying "yikes" in an attempt to discredit them or call them bad like you did in this game), that is considered rulebreaking behavior. It's that simple. > EDIT: Remember that post of the guy who intentionally griefed and inted what, twenty games in a row in bronze or silver or something? Posted his opgg and proof it was him on the boards, took Riot 2 weeks to punish him? If all he did was say a few chat banned words, he'd have been out for the count. Again, because one is readily apparent and easily detected. The other is not. Even so, obvious games where someone goes 0/30 will still face certain problems. Did they effectively hide their actions? Did anyone report them? If they were reported, there is still a _massive_ queue for these games to be reviewed.
These arguments miss the mark. The idea that a NEW player or someone having a bad game could be the one literally not casting spells? Come on, you know as well as I do that is simply not the case. The idea that saying someone is bad is toxic, no, I refuse to believe that you genuinely think that calling someone out for being bad is toxic in a competitive environment where everyone is supposed to have a desire to win and improve. I simply refuse to believe that you genuinely think that, you seem smarter than that. Toxicity would be going so far as to insult people, but calling their in game actions bad is anything but toxic, it is commenting on the state of the game and the idea that you can say comment on someone's actions so long as you're telling them they did good and not bad, is just insane. Calling someone bad and citing their winrate is rulebreaking beahvior? So, you're stating that it is fine for them to be bad, to play poorly, to have awful stats and yet it is NOT okay for me to mention it? Sorry, that's not how logic of any sort works. Next you'll be telling me it is a greater offense for me to state someone is inting, than them actually inting. Sike, the joke here is that it actually is, you will sooner get punished for calling someone an inter than soft inting, and often hard inting games. I do agree that it is easier to ban people based on filtered language rather than more complex ingame actions, but this has little bearing on my account's permaban, does it not? You yourself stated that nothing I said was filtered, I was simply argumentative and negative overall. The majority of players may be able to follow the rules, as am I the majority of the time, but people step out of line sometimes. The issue here isn't that Riot's rules aren't humanly possible to abide by, but the idea that people are dissatisfied with their rules, especially the higher elo you go and talk to better and better players.
Hotarµ (NA)
: > Hilarious stuff, somehow thinking this is how you go around things. People aren't banned for negatively impacting games anywhere near as much as they are for what they type, and you're right, that doesn't justify it, what does justify my behavior is the existence of the mute button. While I agree that it would be nice to see gameplay offenses punished _more often_, the point is that, at the end of the day, it does happen. According to Riot's ruleset and transparent explanation, the existence of a mute button **doesn't** justify that behavior. If you feel differently, sorry, that's not going to change the fact that you will be punished for it. >I love the report for "negative attitude" which basically says, so long as youre acting nice and happy, you can do what you like! Glad to know that so long as you have a good attitude about things, you can get away with murder. Uh... what? Being "nice" doesn't give you a pass when you're intentionally feeding. Gameplay and chat punishments take place on separate ladders, nobody is going to slip by because they said "GLHF" and didn't curse you out. >People grief, troll, etc. but they don't flame anyone, so who cares, am I right? Except **literally nobody** feels that should happen, and that's not what happens. If someone is feeding, I still don't want them in my games. Doesn't matter what they say or how they go about it. > I don't believe I'll get unbanned of course, riot is far too delusional to ever do something like that, but I think it's funny that we live in an age where literally the majority of high elo streamers are calling riot out for a lack of policing soloQ, where people actively attempt to ruin the game for others but dont get punished, yet typing does. Unfortunately, I don't believe you'll get unbanned either, mainly because you ignored the warning(s) you were given. Maybe (if you actually haven't had any prior punishments like you claim) and you can explain the 2-week ban was made in error, just maybe it will be overturned. Every person interprets the punishment system differently. If we're being realistic here, half of those high elo streamers should be punished for frequently being toxic in their own right. >Speaking of which, since when is arguing with my teammates and having a passive agressive approach to things a permaban-level offense? Asking for a friend. When you _just_ got off a two week suspension with a reform card that explicitly stated "Any continued negativity will result in a permanent ban." That's when.
There's no point in attempting to explain anything from my end, because we are having a conversation about a game company that thinks saying "youre bad" is toxicity in a competitive online experience. I've been banned on other accounts for even less than these logs, albeit this alone is utterly insane. Sure, league continues to be a popular game, but maybe one day people at Riot will realize what everyone and their mother has been saying for years, actions matter more than words. Especially when said words can be COMPLETELY ignored and actions cannot. But, as the meme says, it can't be us! It's all the players that are out of touch! Something people seem to lack the capacity to understand in general is that it is disturbingly easy to grief with no repercussions, but saying something about it gets you banned - a support can simply decide to not cast spells for the entirety of a laning phase and lose you the game alone, but will never get punished for it - however you will, if you say something negative about him/her. This notion that a negative attitude should be reportable and punished is beyond delusional to me, it is a competitive setting and I am not allowed to be unsatisfied? What? What's next, gonna ban Faker or Rekkles or someone else from competitive play cause they cried on stage? This is just hilarious to me EDIT: Remember that post of the guy who intentionally griefed and inted what, twenty games in a row in bronze or silver or something? Posted his opgg and proof it was him on the boards, took Riot 2 weeks to punish him? If all he did was say a few chat banned words, he'd have been out for the count.
iBuild (NA)
: tbh try reading your comments again? Riot isn't the one delusional here.
Meaning what exactly?
Hotarµ (NA)
: >A similar set of logs got me INSTANTLY 2 week banned from honor 3, no chat restriction, no prior offense, and now this? It is literally impossible for that to happen. You cannot receive an immediate 14-day suspension for a chat related offense **without any prior punishments** unless you use racist slurs, homophobic slurs, sexist slurs, or other incredibly offensive terms (such as telling someone to kill themselves.) >What is wrong with this company? What delusions exist in the brains of the game devs at work here? While it's true that you didn't sling any hyper-offensive insults, you spent the large majority of this game arguing with your teammates and making some passive-aggressive/aggressive comments. Bloodloss: pro tip, dont go fleet on kaisa Bloodloss: any pro player Bloodloss: who would tell you the same Bloodloss: XDDDDDDD Bloodloss: XDDDDDDDDD Bloodloss: Thats why he doesnt lmfao Bloodloss: yikes Bloodloss: you have no idea what fleet does Bloodloss: And youre taking it cause you saw someone use it once Bloodloss: 388 games 46% Bloodloss: must be rough Bloodloss: 389 games Bloodloss: 46% Bloodloss: yikes Bloodloss: thast why youre hardstuck Bloodloss: rofl Bloodloss: how about Bloodloss: you Bloodloss: play the game Bloodloss: and dont tell me what to do Bloodloss: lmfao Bloodloss: considering you had a jungler Bloodloss: 4 griefers pogU Bloodloss: yikes player >NOTHING short of praise can be said, you could have people openly trolling, griefing, wintrading, intentionally feeding, any of the above, and you will NEVER get punished for ANY of it, but god forbid you tell someone they shouldn't troll you? INSTANT permaban. People are banned for intentionally feeding, griefing, and wintrading. Even if that weren't the case, that still doesn't justify your behavior. >Good stuff, democracy at its peak when 9 godawful players have the say over one person who knows what theyre doing. Cool! Good news for you, that's not how the system works. Multiple reports do not do anything. One report is all it takes to trigger a game for unbiased, automatic review.
Hilarious stuff, somehow thinking this is how you go around things. People aren't banned for negatively impacting games anywhere near as much as they are for what they type, and you're right, that doesn't justify it, what does justify my behavior is the existence of the mute button. I love the report for "negative attitude" which basically says, so long as youre acting nice and happy, you can do what you like! Glad to know that so long as you have a good attitude about things, you can get away with murder. People grief, troll, etc. but they don't flame anyone, so who cares, am I right? I don't believe I'll get unbanned of course, riot is far too delusional to ever do something like that, but I think it's funny that we live in an age where literally the majority of high elo streamers are calling riot out for a lack of policing soloQ, where people actively attempt to ruin the game for others but dont get punished, yet typing does. Speaking of which, since when is arguing with my teammates and having a passive agressive approach to things a permaban-level offense? Asking for a friend.
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Bloodloss

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