Meddler (NA)
: Neurocat's investigations into Karma changes were based on our belief that the 3.5-5.9 and 5.10+ audiences were similar enough to serve together. Conclusion was however that that wasn't the case and that what looked like clear wins would actually end up being detrimental to currently engaged Karma players. Things like putting the Shield Bomb back on instead of the Haste being a good example of that.
> Things like putting the Shield Bomb back on instead of the Haste being a good example of that. The saying "Where there's a will there's a way" comes to mind. Locking the whole AoE portion of the spell behind a brief delay perhaps could've worked. But i'll take your word.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 15
Hey Meddler, in regards to Karma: what's stopping her from seeing changes similar to LB, Kog and Rengar? When NC was announced to be working on Karma, that was what was expected to happen - which made the end result confusing and disappointing for much of the community. Her 3.5 - 5.9 and 5.10+ versions are similar enough not to cause much disruption, and undoing certain changes from the 5.10 version could solve some of her current game health issues.
GetBlood (EUW)
: If I have to play against another mage top I will litterally kms in game obviously(hehe xd)
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEngcOLb,comment-id=00240000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-02T16:31:36.035+0000) > > Let's not argue for the sake of arguing. You said the name Karma is from Buddhism, so she can't be read as black. I said that point is invalid because my brother who is black has a name derived from Buddhism. That's all. Yeah. However, her abilities also derives from Buddhism: Mantra. Her clothes have Asian influences. Her mantle is Asian-themed with the twin dragons. Even her tattoo glows a dragon when you activate Mantra. Her old style was also Yin-Yang based (Taoism). > But "white" and "Asian" can? I'm not arguing that she's "black", I'm just saying it's not unreasonable for her to be read that way, because there are "black" people who look like that. > > For some reason that seems to offend you, but only you can know why. You're the one arguing that she's not Asian due to it being Runeterra, so it's up to you to make the argument why she can be read as black. Either our racial ideas applies to Runeterra (e.g. White, Black, Asian) or it doesn't. For some reason, you want to white knight a poster whom you don't even understand the reason why. I've also explained why. You just chose not understand it. > Except, this isn't cultural appropriation. The poster said the voice and facial features remind them of someone African, and if you're familiar with East Africa you'll see why they'd make that connection. If only that was true. As I said above, the poster isn't admiring Karma for her having relatable African traits; she's actively saying that she's against a VGU as it would somehow remove said traits and would make her less black looking. I mean...Rachel Dolezal with transracism. > That's like... their opinion, man lol. They read her as a "black" woman and they like that. You read her as Southeast Asian and you like that. Problem is, it offends you that anyone could see her as anything but that. As you said, Riot said Karma is Asian-inspired; not African inspired. So that case is closed. It seems like you are the offended one, as you're the one making countless arguments that I've refuted time and time again. You can simply make a poll as well. From the poster, they have received comments that said Karma was Asian, but chose to believe that she is black. Those who would considered her as Asian would outnumber those that would consider her as black. > I doubt the Asian community is pressed that Karma seems like a "black" woman to some people. Anybody who is bothered by that needs bigger challenges in their life. The Asian community wouldn't be offended if Karma looks like a black woman to some people. They would most definitely be offended by a black person yammering away that they are black when they are not and argues that they should be kept being soley black based on some minor facial features. See: Rachel Dolezal; Would she be black because she has black features? I think not. > Lol Fulani isn't my culture, but I wouldn't be against something like this. Personally, I think it's cool to see different cultures reflected in fantasy worlds - especially when done in interesting and expected ways (like a white woman with Fulani braids). Since you aren't even part of the AA community, why act like you understand the microaggressions that plagues those who are? Any social media platform would have a field day with a white woman wearing Fulani braids. And they have. Multiple times. Perhaps you need to read up on why minorities get upset when their cultures are taken away carelessly. Minorities are often underrepresented in the media. This includes the AA community, as well as Asians. As LoL is a form of media, having access to a variety helps those within those communities feel like they have a voice. That said, the poster crowding out on a culture that is blatantly not theirs is a problem. Social topics are often a good learning tool. Google is your friend. > Lmao, bless her. Now, as I said before: this is an entirely different conversation. There are many layers to the Dolezal situation, none of which apply here. The theme is very applicable: Transracism. Rachel Dolezal looks black, yet, there was a huge backlash with the AA community. She should have been considered black, based on your argument for Karma. As you mentioned above already, you know nothing about these racial topics, so why act like you do? Whitesplaining is a real thing.
> Yeah. However, her abilities also derives from Buddhism: Mantra. Her clothes have Asian influences. Her mantle is Asian-themed with the twin dragons. Even her tattoo glows a dragon when you activate Mantra. Her old style was also Yin-Yang based (Taoism). Ok. I wasn't arguing against that. > You're the one arguing that she's not Asian due to it being Runeterra, so it's up to you to make the argument why she can be read as black. Either our racial ideas applies to Runeterra (e.g. White, Black, Asian) or it doesn't. The poster already said why they interpreted her as "black", citing her voice and facial features. As I said, there are black people who have this kind of look - what's the problem? You were the one who said Karma IS Southeast Asian. Not inspired by or reminiscent of, literally IS. You brought real world racial ideas to Runeterra, not me. > For some reason, you want to white knight a poster whom you don't even understand the reason why. I've also explained why. You just chose not understand it. I've stated the reasons why several times, you've even quoted me, so I reject the claim that I don't understand the reason. I'm not white knighting anyone. I jumped in because you made some extremely ignorant comments that I felt needed to be challenged. No white knighting and nothing personal. > If only that was true. As I said above, the poster isn't admiring Karma for her having relatable African traits; she's actively saying that she's against a VGU as it would somehow remove said traits and would make her less black looking. I mean...Rachel Dolezal with transracism. And? They're entitled to that concern. That's their problem. > As you said, Riot said Karma is Asian-inspired; not African inspired. So that case is closed. It seems like you are the offended one, as you're the one making countless arguments that I've refuted time and time again. You haven't refuted a single thing, and far from being offended I'm mildly amused lol. A black or a white character can have an Asian inspired design, for example; Elliot in Dead or Alive, and Leroy in Tekken 7. Those aren't Asian characters yet they wear Asian clothes and use Asian fighting styles. We could also add Raven from Tekken to the that point, since he's a black ninja and ninjas are a Japanese concept. > You can simply make a poll as well. From the poster, they have received comments that said Karma was Asian, but chose to believe that she is black. Those who would considered her as Asian would outnumber those that would consider her as black. And here's the issue you seem to be having: you think I'm trying to argue that Karma IS "black", or that more people consider her "black" than Asian. I'm not concerned with that, it's irrelevant. I said she can be read as "black", evidenced by the fact that some people have (and still do) interpret her that way - whether you like or not. My point has remained consistent and still stands. > The Asian community wouldn't be offended if Karma looks like a black woman to some people. They would most definitely be offended by a black person yammering away that they are black when they are not and argues that they should be kept being soley black based on some minor facial features. See: Rachel Dolezal; Would she be black because she has black features? I think not. Right, and if you were as committed to reaching an understanding as you are to "winning" an argument, you would realize that nobody is saying "Asians are black". You're also still talking about Rachel Dolezal despite her having nothing to do with what we're discussing - or at least what I'm discussing. Perhaps we're having two different discussions, which would explain a lot. > Since you aren't even part of the AA community, why act like you understand the microaggressions that plagues those who are? Without getting too deep into the rest of your presumptuous tangent; you don't know what community I'm apart of. All you know is what I've told you: **Fulani is not my culture**. If you know what Fulani is, common sense should make it apparent that not all African Americans are even descended from the Fulani. Throwing around buzz words like "microaggressions" and "transracism" does not make you progressive, or knowledgeable in the things you're trying discuss; it just make you sound like an ideologically possessed individual. Period. > Rachel Dolezal looks black, yet, there was a huge backlash with the AA community. She should have been considered black, based on your argument for Karma. As you mentioned above already, you know nothing about these racial topics, so why act like you do? Whitesplaining is a real thing. And just to make it crystal clear for you, since you clearly haven't understood my argument: I never said "Karma is black", I said she can be read that way and explained why. You don't have to like or accept the explanation, but you've got it several times. To answer your question directly, no - that doesn't make Rachel Dolezal black. However, she **can **easily be **read **as "black" by someone who doesn't know her, because there are black/mixed people who look similar. And as for "whitesplaining": you've used so much racially charged rhetoric in this thread that I'm now beginning to wonder if you yourself are a racist. Make me the last person you ever "go there" with. Because it's not a good look, at all.
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEngcOLb,comment-id=002400000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-01T11:37:53.198+0000) > > That means nothing. I have a brother literally named Zen, and he's black. Yeah, and it's still from Buddhism. So there you go. > Yes, Asian-Inspired, but it's not Asia. Runeterra is a fictional world which doesn't adhere to the rules of our own. So if that's the case, then she isn't black. As being "black" can't be applied to Runeterra either. > To them it does. Why do you care so much? Cultural appropriation. Or would you like to defend the white people who culturally appropriate from other minority cultures? > 'Black' people don't all look like Senna, Lucian or Ekko. Some 'black' people actually look like Qiyana, Karma, Illaoi and even Nidalee. Not saying any of them are, but they can totally be read that way. The poster can relate to whoever they want in whichever way they want, that's their prerogative not yours. They can relate to whomever they want to. However, stating that Riot shouldn't change the champion because it would somehow make them look less "black" is a problem, as Karma isn't a black woman to begin with. > By who, specifically? Because I feel like this statement can apply to any group, including white people. The poster's opinion hurts nobody and they're entitled to it. The Asian community at large. Yes, it can apply to any group. In this case, it's the Asian community. > So what? Please dont allow other's opinions to be a personal attack against you. Because that's what this sounds like; you feel personally attacked by the way someone else sees Karma. Not that it's a personal attack to me. However, it is still a problem. If the poster in question is going to bring up race, then there's going to be a discussion on that subject. Please let me know when you start defending white champions having Fulani braids. > The true selfishness here is you not allowing someone to their own opinion. They can have their own opinion. Doesn't mean it's not problematic. See: Our current president. But I digress. > The fetish thing seems to be a different conversation entirely. It goes hand in hand. As stated above, it's not so much that the poster is just relating to the champion because she has "black" traits, but because they basically said that Riot shouldn't change her model because it would make her less black. It's a Rachel Dolezal level of fetishization.
> Yeah, and it's still from Buddhism. So there you go. Let's not argue for the sake of arguing. You said the name Karma is from Buddhism, so she can't be read as black. I said that point is invalid because my brother who is black has a name derived from Buddhism. That's all. > So if that's the case, then she isn't black. As being "black" can't be applied to Runeterra either. But "white" and "Asian" can? I'm not arguing that she's "black", I'm just saying it's not unreasonable for her to be read that way, because there are "black" people who look like that. For some reason that seems to offend you, but only you can know why. > Cultural appropriation. Or would you like to defend the white people who culturally appropriate from other minority cultures? Except, this isn't cultural appropriation. The poster said the voice and facial features remind them of someone African, and if you're familiar with East Africa you'll see why they'd make that connection. > They can relate to whomever they want to. However, stating that Riot shouldn't change the champion because it would somehow make them look less "black" is a problem, as Karma isn't a black woman to begin with. That's like... their opinion, man lol. They read her as a "black" woman and they like that. You read her as Southeast Asian and you like that. Problem is, it offends you that anyone could see her as anything but that. > The Asian community at large. Yes, it can apply to any group. In this case, it's the Asian community. I doubt the Asian community is pressed that Karma seems like a "black" woman to some people. Anybody who is bothered by that needs bigger challenges in their life. > Please let me know when you start defending white champions having Fulani braids. Lol Fulani isn't my culture, but I wouldn't be against something like this. Personally, I think it's cool to see different cultures reflected in fantasy worlds - especially when done in interesting and expected ways (like a white woman with Fulani braids). > It's a Rachel Dolezal level of fetishization. Lmao, bless her. Now, as I said before: this is an entirely different conversation. There are many layers to the Dolezal situation, none of which apply here.
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEngcOLb,comment-id=0024000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-01T01:17:26.890+0000) > > Ok, this really needs to stop. Karma can be read as 'black' just as much as she can be perceived as Southeast Asian because everyone connects with these characters differently. 'Black' people are not homogeneous, so saying her rework made her "sound blacker than she was supposed to be" is both false and obscenely ignorant. > > If he/she recognizes some type of 'blackness' in Karma that they relate to, let them enjoy it - it's not hurting anyone. Her name legit is from Buddhism, so she can't be read as black. Her backstory has elements of Buddhism in it. Ionia is also Asian-inspired. So the player can relate to her because of the voice actress or facial features? Doesn't make Karma any more black just because of that. Would the player also relate to Ryze being a black man because of his facial features or voice as well? I get that the AA community doesn't have much representation, however, it doesn't mean you can barge into another minority culture and appropriate them or make them become what they aren't in the first place, just because of the minimal representation for your own. As said, Senna is coming out soon. Lucian and Ekko are currently in the game. Why isn't the poster relating to them instead? Instead, they chose to pick someone who sorta looks/sounds black, who clearly isn't. Finally, it IS a PROBLEM and does hurt the Asian community as a whole. Asians are still exploited, fetishized, and marginalized to this day. You would think another POC would understand that. The poster in question basically said that they didn't want a VGU, as it would take away said clothes or features that would then diminish Karma's "perceived" blackness. That's beyond selfish and delusional. Asians are not here to be your fetishes.
> Her name legit is from Buddhism, so she can't be read as black. That means nothing. I have a brother literally named Zen, and he's black. > Her backstory has elements of Buddhism in it. Ionia is also Asian-inspired. Yes, Asian-Inspired, but it's not Asia. Runeterra is a fictional world which doesn't adhere to the rules of our own. > So the player can relate to her because of the voice actress or facial features? Doesn't make Karma any more black just because of that. To them it does. Why do you care so much? > Would the player also relate to Ryze being a black man because of his facial features or voice as well? They might, what's the issue? > As said, Senna is coming out soon. Lucian and Ekko are currently in the game. Why isn't the poster relating to them instead? Instead, they chose to pick someone who sorta looks/sounds black, who clearly isn't. 'Black' people don't all look like Senna, Lucian or Ekko. Some 'black' people actually look like Qiyana, Karma, Illaoi and even Nidalee. Not saying any of them are, but they can totally be read that way. The poster can relate to whoever they want in whichever way they want, that's their prerogative not yours. > Finally, it IS a PROBLEM and does hurt the Asian community as a whole. Asians are still exploited, fetishized, and marginalized to this day. By who, specifically? Because I feel like this statement can apply to any group, including white people. The poster's opinion hurts nobody and they're entitled to it. > The poster in question basically said that they didn't want a VGU, as it would take away said clothes or features that would then diminish Karma's "perceived" blackness. So what? Please dont allow other's opinions to be a personal attack against you. Because that's what this sounds like; you feel personally attacked by the way someone else sees Karma. > That's beyond selfish and delusional. Asians are not here to be your fetishes. The true selfishness here is you not allowing someone to their own opinion. The fetish thing seems to be a different conversation entirely.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rowanstar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEngcOLb,comment-id=00240000,timestamp=2019-10-28T14:20:48.551+0000) > > MY fear with reworking a more modernized champ is that her skins look great and I worry that a vgu would ruin those skins. Also I like that Karma feels like an african culture type person. I know ppl say she is more asian, but her voice sounds more african and she looks this way in the face. I enjoy having black characters in the game (since im black) and as such hope this isnt removed. Karma is Southeast Asian, with her dark skin features. Her voice actor was changed during the shoddy relaunch to make her sound blacker than she was supposed to be. You're getting Senna pretty soon, who is actually black. Sit down and be patient.
> [{quoted}](name=ZapMyHeart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEngcOLb,comment-id=002400000000,timestamp=2019-10-28T20:44:08.159+0000) > > Karma is Southeast Asian, with her dark skin features. Her voice actor was changed during the shoddy relaunch to make her sound blacker than she was supposed to be. > > You're getting Senna pretty soon, who is actually black. Sit down and be patient. Ok, this really needs to stop. Karma can be read as 'black' just as much as she can be perceived as Southeast Asian because everyone connects with these characters differently. 'Black' people are not homogeneous, so saying her rework made her "sound blacker than she was supposed to be" is both false and obscenely ignorant. If he/she recognizes some type of 'blackness' in Karma that they relate to, let them enjoy it - it's not hurting anyone.
: Yeah no. The majority of karma players have most likely never seen that version and would not like it. Also it was reworked for a reason it was bs. The reason karma is bad and hard to balance actually has very little to do with the kit it's the players since riot can't balance her for mid and support since her kit can't do that. If anything karma should just stay a support and kill off mid karma. Mid karma is bs and most people probably think it's just a support champion going mid anyways.
> If anything karma should just stay a support and kill off mid karma. Mid karma is bs and most people probably think it's just a support champion going mid anyways. Actually, It's the other way around. Karma was most balanced when she was played primarily in Mid. She became "bs" because of changes aimed at improving her as support (patches 5.10 and 6.6). Those changes drastically reduced her counterplay, lowered her skill-floor and skill-cap, and created the 3-lane-4-role flexpicked mess we have today. > The reason karma is bad and hard to balance actually has very little to do with the kit it's the players since riot can't balance her for mid and support since her kit can't do that. It's **everything** to do with the kit. Karma is a problem (mostly in pro-play) because she can flex pretty much anywhere and do 'ok', because her Mantras each scale with vastly different builds. Her utility is too reliable and scales too well for such a safe lane bully. Riot can't revert her rework because her old model and kit are gone, but they can revert the changes which broke her rework and improve her from there.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: senna jungle with funnel except the support mid laner takes the mid farm
Probably not, the passive looks like she gets a temporary buff which is consumed by auto attacking. This is likely her incentive to be aggressive in lane since she readies the passive landing by autos, and can collect it with either Q or autos. Edit: I stand corrected... it actually stacks 0_0
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mig5BbRq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-29T13:54:26.009+0000) > > These are some cool, simple and effective changes. But what about RE? Oh I left untouched. Will clarify. Do you think there should be any particular changes to RE? Just as a further note, I decided to only partially return the 'shield bomb' with the R + R. An aoe offensive radius, but only around Karma herself and no shield with a smaller radius then currently. This is because I feel that Rito would never bring back her old shield bomb as it was.
Personally I think her RE should be reverted back to when it dealt damage; partly because that was an iconic ability, and also because it was more balanced. The current RE forces Karma's passive to be inflated to compensate for the fact it no longer procs it. This is **part **of the reason she's been a problem in pro play.
: Hopefully My Last Karma Rework
These are some cool, simple and effective changes. But what about RE?
: What Do YOU Want Karma to Become?
I see no reason all these options couldn't be delivered on somewhat simultaneously. Current Karma is basically a blank placeholder with inflated numbers allowing her to function. Reverting the 3.5 shield bomb doesn't take much effort, and is healthier (more interactive) than the current RE. Reverting RE also allows Riot to fix the real issue plaguing her kit - her f****** passive. The uptime on her Mantras is too high for too little effort, and it's making "ok" for players not to be thoughtful when using it. Nobody complained about Karma back when her passive was at 2 seconds at all ranks. Now it scales to 4, and she can just sit back and refresh her Mantras faster than most basic abilities. That's broken, and it's making everyone hate our champ to the point that crowds boo when picked in competitive. The twin dragons seem mostly like a cosmetic thing that could be added even without a rework.
: Point taken and understood. You know even though champions or items have intended uses doesn't mean they can't be excessive. I don't know how my suggestion is baff-handedly though. I just want a nerf to her R Q combo damage. A rework would suffice too but in the meantime, just the R Q damage would do.
The nerfs she received recently have already hurt everything but her tank build for top lane. She's lost 20% AP ratio on Q and another 20% RQ; what more do you propose?
: Well obviously taking ALL your health is an exaggeration but she can still take Over half your health with AP items and she doesn't have to be fed. MR isn't that high and for ADCs, MR is even lower. Karma isn't Zyra. She's not supposed to nuke an ADC from one R Q combo. She's supposed to be a utility mage like Sona and Lulu. She has a shield that also gives her and her allies MS, She has a root that also heals her if she uses her R, and her Q slows while doing damage, adding the R to it, it creates an AOE slow hat just so happens to deal a lot of damage. Her kit cries out Utility. Not damage. At the end of the day, she's a support. She's not suppsoed to do that much damage. If that's the case, Brand should have never been nerfed. Zyra's plants would have never been nerfed. Sona's Q would have never been nerfed. Janna's W would have never been nerfed. What is your point? Other mages do more damage, but guess what? Karma still does a lot of damage. You can't say "Why are we talking about this when this is happening." Nothing will get changed. There are multiple threads that are and can be made about other champs but for this thread, I wanted to talk about the champions in the OP.
This here is where the confusion lies: > She's supposed to be a utility mage like Sona and Lulu. You're comparing her to champs who were designed as pure duo lane supports, hence why Lulu is nerfed every time she steps out of bot. According to Riot, Karma supposed to function similarly to champs like: Orianna, Morgana and Lux. > What is your point? My point is that her damage is functioning as intended; she doesn't have as much damage as other mages, but she makes up for it with utility. Read her rework AMA thread on Reddit and her reveal thread on the old boards, Karma was designed as a mid-laner with the ability to flex bot (as demonstrated in her champion spotlight). So while I agree with your general sentiment that she is a problematic champion, I think your solution to just baff-handedly nerf her is wrong. She's already had her shields nerfed consistently for the past 3 years, and her damage was already nerfed like a month ago. She needs a rework.
: She's not though. She's still taking half the ADCs health at the beginning of the game and all of it later in the game. Just because a champ isn't popular anymore or just because YOU might not necessarily play the champ, doesn't mean or excuse the fact that she's still doing too much damage with her R Q combo.
You're either talking about a fed full ap Karma, or you're exaggerating. If it's a fed full ap Karma then she's doing what she's supposed to do, and still doing less than other mages.
: Some Thoughts On Things LOL.
Karma is dead and you're still asking for nerfs? Lmao
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 18
Hey Meddler, are there any plans for Karma during or after preseason?
: i will be surprised if she is white
> [{quoted}](name=7thHeaven,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dtYA0Gz5,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-10-12T11:22:18.059+0000) > > i will be surprised if she is white Why?
: Why Are Karma Players Upset about the Phoenix Video?
Totally agree with the issues outlined and the treatments proposed. Meddler acknowledged duality as something which makes Karma who she is. She ought to be brought back to that design philosophy. Focusing her strengths around damage and protection achieves that. Would also be nice to see Karma's model updated to be like she is in the cinematic, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that...
Zounatic (EUW)
: Possible Karma Mini-Rework?
Myself and a bunch of other Karma mains have been arguing for similar changes for like 3/4 years. P - The passive is fine, but could easily be nerfed back to 2 seconds at all ranks, and moved to her ult to make space for a new one. It's not essential, but would be nice. Q - I agree with shifting some base damage to her scaling. I would reduce the slow, if the goal is to weaken her tank build for top lane. RQ - I would be careful about adding missing HP damage to a supportive mage. W - I agree the base version is fine, but if we want to make her less overbearing for melees, the CC should be streamlined to 1.5s at all ranks. RW - We almost got an RW which scaled more with AP than HP, but that got cancelled. I still think something like that is essential for Karma. E - I don't think any changes here are necessary. I'm all for keep her base abilities weaker, if it means stronger Mantras. RE - Shield bomb is a must, imo.
SiG DxD (EUNE)
: now ? she was for dozens of patches there to abuse melee champions with her opressive cc and healing from W it was just a pain to play against a bruiser or tank karma
Right, but when Karma mains call for her to be reworked out of that style of play - we're silenced... can't win.
: typically mages build ap... karma is to riots expectation not a mage, but a support.. they expect people to build utility items. {{item:3190}} {{item:3107}} {{item:3174}} you know support stuff not {{item:3285}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3165}} supports dont need to worry about scaling in pro play, the games are almost usually over before a support will see 5 items (and before you say "this patch affects us too" yes while it does this is the patch they will be playing on at worlds so dont expect to see any mage karmas at worlds, maybe next patch they might undo it but this is how riot is setting the meta in stone for worlds)
> typically mages build ap... karma is to riots expectation not a mage, but a support.. they expect people to build utility items. That's not exactly true. In Karma's relaunch Reddit AMA (or the old forum post), Riot said they wanted her to be a supportive mage similar to champs like Lux, Morgana, Zilean and Orianna. She was specifically designed for her damage and utility to scale hard with AP, and to have solo (mid) and duo lane flexibility.
: i dont disagree. but in seasons past if you got more then 40% cdr it was wasted stats and wasted gold. but now its not. i also feel that cuz of things like this, buff timers in jungle and other things that have changed has water down the skill/knowledge level needed to tell the good experience players from the casual/bad players
Maxing 40% CDR also meant giving up raw AP and AD back then too, right? I vaguely remember having to choose between raw damage, and lower CDs...
Bârd (NA)
: A Karma rework
I think any rework which aims to make either a full support, or full mage, misses the whole point of Karma. And naturally, reworks should try not to deliberately alienate the champ's player base. This rework caters exclusively to the support role in a way that most Karma support mains probably wouldn't appreciate.
Cat Nøir (EUNE)
: What did it accomplish? It's pretty easy. - Made her easier/more braindead to play, she doesn't even have to aim on the seeds anymore but can throw her spells near them - Made her actually more boring to play. You thought that having more plants would be more fun? Nope. You just randomly throw spells near seeds and hope for the RNG to finish the job - There are more plants which means they had to reduce their survi. Plants are getting 1 shot by about everything. Any aoe/dot destroys them. - Removed iconic part of her skillset (skillshot passive was very satysfying to land and made Zyra a threat even if you killed her)
> Removed iconic part of her skillset (skillshot passive was very satysfying to land and made Zyra a threat even if you killed her) I agree with everything you said, but this passive was one of the most requested things to change. That much I remember. I miss it though. That old passive was fun.
: i understand that was the intention at the time, but that doesnt mean they're wrong to pull power out of flex picking now, if its a strength thats much more valuable in pro play and creating big balance problems there
Being able to flex between roles is not a balance issue in and of itself - Lux and Morgana do it just fine. If that's their intention, then they are totally wrong to take this approach as they're gutting a core part of her identity. And whilst they're killing her off her AP build, her top lane Tank build will only become more popular since that's the only build that'll be left unscathed.
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cRhsm6VL,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-09-14T12:17:24.283+0000) > > She's a battlemage/enchanter hybrid. It's not the heal from RW she should be losing, it's the bonus root. They certainly aren't addressing her as one. All I see is them wanting to shove her into bot lane only.
And that's the problem. They're shoehorning her into a role that doesn't allow her to be distinct. The shoehorning is the issue.
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cRhsm6VL,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-09-14T12:17:24.283+0000) > > She's a battlemage/enchanter hybrid. It's not the heal from RW she should be losing, it's the bonus root. Why should she be losing anything at all? Is the broken in pro play or something?
> Why should she be losing anything at all? Because CC is a strength she never should've had in the first place. Her kit can't take advantage of anything more than a 1.5 second root (to set up RQ), so the potential 3.25s is a excessive and wasteful. Imo Riot should revert RW back to dealing bonus damage because it was less safe, and had a better risk/reward trade for both Karma and her melee opponents. > Is the broken in pro play or something? Her kit is broken overall, but not op. In pro-play she's just a bit of a ubiquitous flex pick. Things like the pure missing-HP scaling on RW, and the bonus root duration encourage Tank builds in top lane. This wasn't an issue back when RW gave bonus damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=FSRER,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cRhsm6VL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-14T06:06:27.576+0000) > > Why do I get a feeling they are nerfing Karma because of her toplane presence? She is a very strong pick for Toplane that hard counters most duelists and since they want Riven to be op again and Karma is a champion that can beat her, she is getting nerfed. Why not remove RW then. No enhancer nor burst mage should have a self-heal in their kit.
She's a battlemage/enchanter hybrid. It's not the heal from RW she should be losing, it's the bonus root.
: thats why. flex picking is insanely powerful in pro, especially this past year. so they've been systematically nerfing things like mid lane aatrox, top/jg sylas, etc in the past few patches
Karma was intended to play as both a solo (mid) laner and duo laner, so they should be updating to better fit that profile - rather gutting her damage. She already has issues with target selection and late game scaling, this nerf is a reach.
: Again, Why Are We Buffing/Nerfing Karma if You are Canceling GU and Doing Nothing?
I think it's clear Riot lacks enthusiasm for some champions, and it just comes across like laziness and carelessness. For the past 3/4 years they have been tunnel visioned on getting Karma into pro-play, and keeping her there by any means necessary. Despite being warned by Karma mains EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. And they ignored us, because you know - _things change, we're stuck in the past, we need to get over it, the devs know best etc..._ The devs clearly don't know best, they're not fking interested, they don't care. They have proven that they only care to maintain the cheap, boring, oppressive, one-dimensional sh*t show we see in competitive, with simple number adjustments... just because it's popular. Sick of it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nea104,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d4xUAa51,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-09-13T21:50:03.135+0000) > > Absurd buff to Riven, absurd nerf to Karma, and some people are **happy** :D > > The kind of people who are still enjoying this game in its current state, and that will keep playing when everyone else will have quit. > This is an _**actual snowball effect**_ , about making the game less and less pleasant :D riven shouldn't be getting buffed, we already know this, that doesn't make karma a good design though.
We know Karma is a bad design, but that shouldn't make it okay for Riot to gut her like this. They're gutting the ratios of a champ who already falls off late game, and essentially removing her from the solo-lanes she was intended to play in... that's just plain wrong.
5050BS (NA)
: Yes because her Q is stupid. Her kit is stupid too. Lets put ALL her damage in one spell. Its like Zoe.
The only reason her Q/RQ is stupid is because it's her ONLY damage option. It was never an issue back when RW and RE were also damage options. Riot destroyed her the moment they pushed through the 5.10 changes.
: Karma hard nerfs???
Riot always finds new ways to disappoint. I don't know whats more disgusting: their treatment of Karma, or the blatant cash-grab buffing of Riven because of her new skin. Never been so disappointed in Riot. I'm disgusted.
Roigaar (EUW)
: What? Please tell me this is a joke. @Meddler Karma players don't deserve this.
: I agree. This completly kills her AP solo lane. Nerfing her only dmg output by that much... It nerfs her waveclear too. And it's both a nerf to her base Q and RQ, since RQ is additional dmg to base Q. Even nerfing her RQ AP ratio by 20% would be better than this... They don't want her to exist.
They shouldn't nerfing ratios at all. If they want to hit her damage, it should be base damage. And even then, that should be exchange for larger ratios so she can actually scale. They're doing all this instead of just reverting the changes which broke Karma's kit. It's just sad.
: What is the direction of the {{champion:43}} nerfs? I'm assuming the nerf is pro focused, so maybe target something that really affects pro? Maybe hit the RE movement speed? Or another type of nerf focused on RE? This one would affect solo q a lot, but maybe take off a bit of RQ damage and transfer it to W? Anything but base stat nerfs and base Q nerfs hopefully.
They are nerfing her Q damage ratio from 60% to 40% for some reason I wish I knew... Literally condemning her solo-lane to hell I-...
: [Gameplay Update] Aurelion Sol, The Star Forger
I like this a lot, partly because I suggested swapping around his E and R myself not too long ago. I love how you incorporated his current Q into this new R, and I hope Riot actually does something like this.
Jenivie (NA)
: honestly I just want a new passive, a shield animation, and for her model to reflect how she looks in the awaken cinematic. They made her look so beautiful with her bracelets connecting to her cloak, then we get karmas ingame where her legs clip through her dress (Im looking at you traditional karma >:o )
I think she needs a bit more than just a new passive and shield animation, but I agree the design from the cinematic is superior. She actually looks complete in the cinematic, whereas her in-game never looked finished.
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Inh8Ut1d,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-08-30T14:37:00.934+0000) > > Are there any plans to revisit Karma's gameplay update at some point? Please. I knew from the get go her rework was gonna be a shitshow she went from someone with unique thematic gameplay to the world's most generic mage, and this whole top lane karma thing (YEARS LATER BTW) has only reinforced that. I have no idea how LeBlanc and Kog'Maw got reverts but not Karma, my fucking god
Before her update was previewed, it was sold to us like it would be similar to Leblanc's and Rengar's - which were essentially reverts. If they had gone that route for Karma, it would've been perfect. Instead, they ended up focusing too hard on the wrong goals and alienating most of the community.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 30
Are there any plans to revisit Karma's gameplay update at some point?
Reav3 (NA)
: yes, we will still do VGUs that aren't chosen by the poll.
Hey Reav3, is the next Champion Roadmap coming after the new marksman teased in the last roadmap?
: > [{quoted}](name=Bugog,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=JqitP2za,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-19T22:07:13.982+0000) > > I think pro teams over value some champions that seem to always underperform. > > Karma is one of those, where I've seen her picked a number of times mid and top. It always seems like she putters out @20 minutes and if the team wins it's not because she's bringing anything to the game. On the flip side I've seen her fall off that cliff @20 and the enemy laner wins the game because split push pressure. It seems like she is a terrible pick but pro teams keep picking her. > > Same thing for tahm. The one devour and die just doesn't affect the game like other supports, but teams keep picking him. Again I've seen him win a few times, but I think his presence far outpaces his performance. > > Kind of wondering if there are other champs who other people see this in. Id argue that the reason they play these champions is to compliment their team or they are facing someone they need to stall out for and play safe. Karma mid or even top lane is a pretty safe pick vs many champions she's hard to kill same thing with tahm. The things they offer is reliability safety and a boat load of utility. In solo que they might not seem like the hard carry type but in a well coordinated team they just might be what you are looking for.
To add to this, in regards to Karma - she's easy, safe, and one-dimensional with strengths universally applicable to all champs (speed boosts and shields). She's decent at everything, including lockdown with up to a 3.25s root (something she was never supposed to be good at), but excels at nothing.
: Karma is a free win basically.
> She does high damage with no items This could be tuned down in exchange for mid-late scaling, I agree. > Her spells are dumb cheap and she can lane forever An exaggeration, but okay, I guess. > She has a speed boost the damn near gets her out of everything..... A mild MS boost (very mild compared to {{champion:117}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:61}} ), should be least of anyone's worries in the League of Mobility. > She also becomes tanky with AP items... As she should, she's a Battlemage. Sustain is a quintessential Battlemage quality, and something which has been core to her throughout her existence.
: Both Varus and Kalista on Average have about 4 - 2 decent non-skill based match-ups
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2019-08-14T21:39:40.015+0000) > > But even with the lore, as people always say: "this is Runeterra, Earth races/culture don't exist there". > > I just find it interesting (and sad) that it's only the darker skinned champs that face the scrutiny of what Earthly race they'd belong to. You raise an interesting point here. But I feel like not a lot of people are really clued into the assorted facial features and other genetic quirks that might divide parts of Europe for instance. (When I find someone else who is, though, funny things happen, because I am essentially an Eastern European Jewish mutt and some people have a knack for figuring out exactly where parts of my family are from.) They're just things we take for granted, and it's always easier when skin tone makes it obvious.
> [{quoted}](name=KestrelGirl,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=0000000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-14T22:38:08.660+0000) > > You raise an interesting point here. But I feel like not a lot of people are really clued into the assorted facial features and other genetic quirks that might divide parts of Europe for instance. (When I find someone else who is, though, funny things happen, because I am essentially an Eastern European Jewish mutt and some people have a knack for figuring out exactly where parts of my family are from.) They're just things we take for granted, and it's always easier when skin tone makes it obvious. That's very true. Europeans are not a homogeneous group, but are typically lumped together as "white". We could go a step further and say pale skinned or "white" passing people from anywhere in the world, are referred to and accepted as "white". For "Black" people on the other hand, they are limited to just being West Africans and their descendants. When it comes to dark skinned peoples, lines start to be drawn, and it becomes less about skin, and more about individual features. It's strange to me.
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2019-08-14T16:11:52.068+0000) > > Karma and Illaoi are easily read as "black" not only for having darker skin, but because of their voice actresses being "black" women. > > They look "black", and sound "black", to those who aren't familiar with any "Indian" or "Pacific Islander" design influences on these champions. That's like saying Edward Elric from Fullmetal Alchemist is Asian and is also a girl since in the original Japanese dub he's voiced by a Korean-Japanese voice actress. Except he isn't. He's a white person who lives in a fictional nation of Amestris that is based of Germany and is male. The same argument can be applied to the majority of characters in JoJo's franchise that routinely takes place in non-Japan nations with often non-Japanese protagonists facing off non-Japanese antagonists, but ofc all voiced by Japanese voice actors. Are we also saying none of the talking animals in The Lion King are wild animals but are in fact all humans since they talk and are voiced by human voice actors? Hell, let's look at League for yet another example. Yasuo for instance, is voiced by a white American voice actor. Does that mean Yasuo is somehow not coded Asian? The list goes on. Since when the voice actor is the one that defines the characteristic of the character they play? Voice actors may or may not play _some_ parts in defining a character, but it is their job to PORTRAY and not to DEFINE. **It's obvious canon comes before the actors doing the portrayal, and NOT the other way around.** Of course the characters are defined by their in-universe characteristic according to canon first and foremost. Just because some people stay intentionally ignorant to such an extreme that they treat all people with pigments in skins as the one and the same or something, it doesn't mean we really need to give them any attention nor take them seriously enough to even mention them.
You've misunderstood me: I'm not saying "they are black because their voice actresses are...", I'm saying they can easily be **interpreted** as "black" because they both look and sound "black".
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2019-08-14T16:11:52.068+0000) > > Karma and Illaoi are easily read as "black" not only for having darker skin, but because of their voice actresses being "black" women. > > They look "black", and sound "black", to those who aren't familiar with any "Indian" or "Pacific Islander" design influences on these champions. This is a fair point. I would also be fine with an ordinary person reading them as being black if they've only ever played the game and not read the lore. Somebody who hasn't read up on the lore might not understand the cultural inspirations behind Buhru for instance. But we're on SA&S. Everyone's read *some* lore here!
But even with the lore, as people always say: "this is Runeterra, Earth races/culture don't exist there". I just find it interesting (and sad) that it's only the darker skinned champs that face the scrutiny of what Earthly race they'd belong to.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-13T23:58:41.756+0000) > > {{champion:420}} (maybe {{champion:163}} {{champion:43}}) All three are women of color, but none is intended to be black. Illaoi is coded as Pacific Islander, Karma as Indian, and Taliyah as Middle Eastern. This is our first black woman champion, i.e. coded as being of African descent.
Karma and Illaoi are easily read as "black" not only for having darker skin, but because of their voice actresses being "black" women. They look "black", and sound "black", to those who aren't familiar with any "Indian" or "Pacific Islander" design influences on these champions.
: As a pyke main, please nerf him
Honestly, whenever I let a Pyke into my games I regret not dodging. He is bullshit incarnate.
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IxtaliKing

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