: About Those Karma Buffs - Riot Can We Talk?
How long are we going to keep repeating the same things? I don't think that Riot hates Karma but I don't think that they care either. No one can hit me with the "they care because she wouldn't be getting a buff". The only reason she is getting a buff is because she is getting a skin and that is what Riot cares about. Not Karma. Not her theme. Not her issues. These can be pushed aside until one day a Rioter decides that he/she likes Karma and maaaaaybe he can squeeze a little bit of his/her free time and do some work on her. But still, I really hope that Riot will see our concerns and they will think about it.
: The Back and Fourth Karma Buffs/Nerfs Needs to Stop. Give Her a GU and Prioritize It.
Don't worry! The cycle continues just like Karma's reincarnation. Except Riot doesn't carry on their memories and forget. The "Riot never learns" is meme no more.
Falrein (EUW)
: What are your biggest fears regarding your favourite champions/regions' future?
1. That LoL won't live long enough to tell enough stories. 2. They will keep giving popular/favourite characters more and more lore while the others will keep with bare bones. While some may tell me to have more faith in the lore team, all I can say is that the worst stuff happen when you expect them the least. So far the lore team has done incredible job and occasionally little "mistakes". It's up to time before they make a move with massive disappointment. Maybe they already have and I just didn't feel the impact.
: Karma - Forever a Divided Community?
> affected enemies take 30/35/40% (+1 per 50AP) increased damage I see what you did there! {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} Anyway I think that the rework is really nice but I have a small concern. > Shield- and healingpower also increases Karma's magic damage. It's not a complaint, neither would I call it a nitpick but rather something to consider. What if Riot decided to remove shielding/healing power? We know Riot has done removing a stat from the game in the past and while the chances are slim that they may again...well let's just say we know how quickly is Riot to change their minds. I love the idea though.
lceWolf (NA)
: I can agree with you on the %dr I was aiming to keep armor/resistance around around as a built in weekness, since i had it scaling with distance. Which would also be unique to Karma. In terms W/RW, i have a question: do you think the current slow Q and snare W is better than what im proposing? The W slow i propose is weaker than the current Q, even at max bonus, though lasts longer. The RW slow is also weaker than the current RQ. Neither of these options snare in my current build either. On paper, my rework is, and should be, a nerf to Karma's control capabilities, even at max bonus on the W/RW. Thank you for the positivity and the discussion, it means a lot.
I think that Karma with less CC is better. It's not her niche and can be used as her weakness. What you propose is, indeed, weaker than what we have now but it's even weaker vs ranged champs. Right now it's incredibly annoying to fight artillery champions. Even when you have a powerful slow and root, you just can't pin them down because they use their CC and run away from you before W hits. So I much more prefer if the CC was stronger the further my enemy was because this way I can punish ranged champs that misspositioned. It's also like a "second chance"..."Hey! Your enemy got far away from you but worry not! Here I am slowing him/her a bit more. Maybe you will manage to take it to full advantage." I don't even need CC vs mele champs. They jump on my face so I can unload my kit on them. Mele non-mobile champions already suffer in the hands of mobility and range. Do we really need mechanics which enhance it even further, no matter how strong it is in comparison to what we have now? I would much more prefer if I had tools to deal with range and mobility a bit better than make meles' life worse. Why do you think that Karma is played top? Because she can build tank? Why is that not a thing on mid then? Because her CC is too strong on meles and too weak vs ranged. That is why I think the "boosting" effect should be reversed. Of course at the end, this is just my own, personal, subjective opinion and it is as far as it can go. This is YOUR rework. Whether you want to consider my opinion or not is up to you. Maybe you will find a middle ground, a compromise. Just know I won't be mad or angry because I already like your rework idea much, much, MUCH more than what we have now.
lceWolf (NA)
: Hey, thanks for the feedback and taking the time to read! Im completely down for her numbers to be tweaked. If 300 is too much theres plenty of wiggle room to adjust it like, AP per stack or her stack capacity. Remember though, her set up in my rework is a reward for 30 separate ability hits, or attack/ability hits from buffed allies (W/E), or attacks on debuffed characters (W). With stacks decaying out of combat, it should take her some time to get all those stacks. The slow on her W RW is weaker unless she RWs and is on top of you. Without the snare from W and RW, she more vulnerable to leaps and dashes to keep up. My current design was with her current and old tethers in mind* requiring that karma stays in range of somone to get the full value out of it. I feel inversing the slow would come at too high a cost for karma's survivability. I went with armor and magic resistance buff on her W instead of a % Damage Reduction so she keeps some weakpoints that are counterable by items and true damage. E is a bit bland, but since i moved the ms buff from it to the W, i gave it some extra power and duration. Definitely down to add something to it, not sure what to add without making it op or adding yet another capability to Karma, since she has so much already. Thanks again for the read and the feedback! Definitely some things to consider.
I understand what you mean with the W/RW but my problem with it is that it punishes mele non-mobile champions the most. We don't need to promote people into picking champions with dashes and blinks. Maybe instead of making the slow stronger if the enemy is near Karma, it can ground instead? I don't think that % DMGR is that problematic. If it was Riot wouldn't be throwing it like cookies into the new/reworked champs. Of course with Karma will be different since she can give it to someone else but it can easily be balanced. Ori already gives resistances with her E maybe Karma can be unique in that she give % DMGR instead. But at the end of the day what is important is that the ally W needs to gives defenses no matter what they are, rather than _***cough**_ ability cdr _***cough**_. Keep up the good work and don't get demotivated by the downvotes!
lceWolf (NA)
: In a sea of Karma reworks, I give you mine.
Hey there, I don't have much time right now but here are my thought on some of your ideas: - 300 ap from passive is just too much. It's luden + rabaddon(and it's passive) worth of AP. Needs lower values. Passives don't need to be impactful for all champions. What matters is, if it conveys Karma's theme. - W and RW slow strength based on how close you are to the enemy needs to be reversed. Mele champs already have enough trouble as it is against Karma. Reversing it makes it easier for meles to counter it as they need to get close to someone anyway to do something. You wanna slow enemies harder who try to get away. It also supports her joke that karma always catches up to anymone hehe. Also can you elaborate what you meant about the % dmr vs resistance? Sorry I am not native speaker. - E is a bit bland. Maybe it can give ap to the ally based on how much Karma would get from the stacks? I like everything else though! If you want I can re-edit my post once I have a bit more of free time.
: > [{quoted}](name=Daddyissuess,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEngcOLb,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-10-27T10:52:15.507+0000) > > {{champion:14}} {{champion:518}}
: Legends of Runeterra: Freljord Lore
I thought that Anivia, Voli and Ornn represent the Freljordian land? Anivia is the snow, Orn is the mountains and earth and Voli the storm and wind. Am I missing something?
: > Yes, maybe I shouldn't have dove so deep or mention any numbers because what matters is the idea, theme and direction of the proposed changes. Maybe, but I don't mind going a bit more in-depth with a select few who enjoy it as much as I do. > When I said that I would like % missing health because she can then build tanky, what I had in mind are battle mage items like RoA, Morello/Liandry(with the extra HP) It bears repeating, but I believe that an increase in tankiness increases RW's effectiveness already, because it allows you to get the second proc. Very often mage/support Karma's can only afford to take the first proc and then disengage. If we let the heal scale with both health and then the double proc, it is easy to create a double scaling which could be too much. Surely, this is just a fear for me, I couldn't tell for sure. This takes playtesting and I am willing to trust any game designer worth their salt to know it better than me anyways. My main point is that the current heal is inadequate and as long as it moves away from those pure tank scaling, I am happy. EDIT: I forgot to mention, that one of Karma's strongest counters is CC. If she doesn't get to use her shields and selfheal, she falls quickly. A healthbuffer is Karma's way of reliably countering that problem, which is another reason why I don't wanna overdo the healthscaling on the heal itself. > considering that you waste the ability for defensive purposes, you don't proc your passive(if it retains) and you use your ultimate, which should be champion's ability with most impact, don't you think that the RW heal on the ally, regardless if it's squishy or tank, should also have impactful outcome? Sure! You could have a % damage reduction on RW in addition to simple resistances on W. Generally I think of mantra as more of a modifier or extended toolbox, instead of the semi ult some people want it to be. Having the same thing very often can be fun (see URF), but it gets tiring way more quickly than a rich and versatile kit does. So no, I don't desire _power_ in her mantra, I desire options, that don't necessarily need to be impactful all the time. > What I meant is that instead of having a mantra that directly deals damage maybe we can make the mantra buff Karma or de-buff her enemies and this way dish out this extra damage trough her other abilities. I agree in principle, resistance shred is something that could fit her to contrast the resistance buff on W, that I'd like to add, but... I don't think Karma should go the path of a buffer/debuffer. Historically she was about retaliation damage and protection and I think you can build enough uniqueness on that. And leave the shredding to someone who fits it better. Just imagine an RQ that did _% current hp damage_ which could work as an initiation tool for her team (chunk enemies and slow them), which would also make her "stronger" the stronger her enemies are, but somewhat more merciful against low hp enemies (this also gives her impactful damage even as a support). Similarly her RE could scale with the target's %missing hp, making it deal additional damage on low hp allies. This too would be unique and would fit her concept, defying those who prey on the weak. It's worth noting too, that Karma is the only champion who could apply a shieldbomb to OTHER champions, which is at least a _bit_ unique. Maybe not enough in today's league, however. > So when it comes to potential mechanics I prefer to look at original Karma, rarely for the current iteration. Same here. There was a lot of potential in her old kit, that got discarded without too much thought. Getting inspired by old Karma to help out new Karma is also a good way of sewing the split community together again. > Removing the AoE shield would be better since it's non existent at this point. It also would remove the interaction of giving your whole team censer buff which is much more utilized in pro scene. Those are valuable points. Mind if I steal them :D? > I also wanted Karma to get back a clothes-lining effect on the W/RW and let it heal allies who pass trough it. There is a... private Karma rework I have on my PC, which is my favourite atm. It lets Karma connect two targets of her choice with W (making it similar to Irelia's E). This also would directly solve the issue of Karma not having enough agency, or not being tanky enough, or not being able to use it properly if built as a support; just link someone else. With alt+W you could still quickly link yourself to a target you like and regain the ability to manipulate the tether yourself for its duration. I don't know what NeuroCat tried out, she only shared a few steps of her journey. To me it appeared like she got carried away by inventing new things to do with W and fell in love with the Zilean thing. I wouldn't know if she tried every clothsline option, or something like my version. That's why I just can't throw it out.
> My main point is that the current heal is inadequate and as long as it moves away from those pure tank scaling, I am happy. Yea, it's understandable. I find % missing health heal kind of unique and you fear it may cause a follow up of issues. I won't really bother you with it anymore. In the end, what is important, is that we agree on the most fundamental problem of the heal, the excessive tank scaling. > Those are valuable points. Mind if I steal them :D? I am pretty sure other people/players had these "points" too. So it's not like they are mine. I may have stolen them myself. So sure, you are more than welcome to steal them as well, just don't rat me out if you get caught! :D > I wouldn't know if she tried every clothsline option, or something like my version. That's why I just can't throw it out. Me either. I just won't push it too hard on anyone. If we ever get the opportunity to communicate with the new design artist, like NeuroCat, I will definitely suggest it.
: Saved the best for last :D I really like your comment! > everyone would still downvote and write down that they do not care about anything and would rather see him stay in a very, very weak state. Yeah, I know that painfully well. My strategy has become to convince other players how the health of certain heroes also directly impacts their enjoyment of the game. If Yasuo just is unhealthy by design, it's better to fix it, than to cherish the few moments he has luckily fallen out of the meta. Because, let's face it, Riot will always try to make all champions viable, so we should rather come together and campaign for something that's enjoyable for everyone. In my experience, people react very well to this kind of reasoning. > Anyway I hope I can be excused for these philosophical stuff, that no one asked for anyway, and just let me share what I think of the suggestions: Nono, I like that. Those are good and valuable points. It is necessary to look at the meta situation as well and I am glad more than just me do that. > My only grip is the damage from the initial hit. It need to be reduced and compensated by increasing the damage on the second half of the ability, the ground explosion. That's very perceptive and I agree. I completely let out the numbers discussion, because quite frankly, barely anyone engages in that on the boards. But you are right, the numbers would have to be adapted for this cause. Currently, hitting someone close to you is easier too, because the amount of things that CAN be between you and the target is just smaller. If they are too close, not even minions can block the explosion anymore. But generally, I agree, the change requires a lot of adaption; projectile speed, percentage of damage in initial explosion and maybe even area size would have to be reassessed. > I think a much more preferable iteration of the heal was the one from original Karma Values similar to her original heal could work too, of course, but since we don't have the "low HP - much AP" scaling from her passive anymore, I think the values need to be exeggarated on the ability itself. Usually I propose something like 40hp +3% per 1%missing hp (at start/finish, which makes it a ~10% heal at full hp and 120hp or 25% of her hp at lvl1). Again I think it's necessary that it's an emergency tool, not a sustain tool, to keep Karma somewhat healthy and close to her original concept. Secondly we need to remember that Mage and Support Karma are her primary roles, which means we should not expect her to build tank scalings. Because if she is tankier, she can guarantee the second hit of the heal more likely, essentially doubling the amount of healing in most cases. And even more importantly if her RW can heal others, I want a heal that can't be abused as easily on tanks. Of course I could be off with my assessment and your values are closer to what she should end up with, but that's what playtesting is for, imo. The both of us will never know for certain. > I guess it would be unique because no other champion can give % reduction to others(if I am not mistaken). I think you are right. Ever since the reworked Mao'kai's ulti. But there's probably a reason for this; shields are more interesting to play around and visually impactful (that's why they changed' Sona's W from resistances to shields) and resistances scale better on squishies than tanks. This incentivices certain abilities to be used on carries, while not making it broken if used on tanks. If you think that Karma would be a great champion, who should be used in conjunction with bruisers, for example, a %damage reduction could be a great addition tho. Then the flat+percentage healing on RW would make more sense too! > At least I don't think Karma needs damage into all her mantras directly. Back when all mantra's did damage Karma had her damage spread through 3 abilities (Q,W,R), which made it easier to distribute her damage healthily through her kit. Having it in Q and W alone makes it waaaaay too spikey. I also think the question HOW to apply Mantra's damage (risky but high AoE on Q, reliable solo on W, or safe AoE damage on E) in combination with what kind of utility she needed (increased range & slow, emergency heal, or team protection), made her a champion with incredible depth. Sure there are other ways to make a great Karma; Old Karma worked well with opposite mantra effects, but I honestly think mantra damage appears like the most healthy. Champions who only have her damage in 1-2 spells are REALLY obnoxious (see AP Nidalee or Yui). Having a damage passive and at least 3 damage abilities makes for fairer, but at the same time usually also stronger mages. > First of all the game itself. New runes, new masteries, new/reworked champion, new/reworked items...they all contributed indirectly to her state. That's fair. Maybe I missed something, but what do you... actually suggest here? Her RE is obviously problematic AF now. Do you want the AoE shield to go? Or the AoE MS? > CC on RW: I guess the enemy RW extra root is to change into extra damage like "good" old days? It appears to me as the simplest workable solution. Maybe there is a better one, but I haven't heard any yet. > What is the point of discussions if people are not willing to invest into reading a little bit more anyway. You are a blessing. I feel very honored I even got 50 people to read and upvote this and a healthy discussion in the comments, but I realize I am still shy of actual reach. However, getting to people like you is what I hope most anyways. I need the people with good arguments and understanding for game mechanics on the same quest as me. Don't really care for those who won't read more than 3 sentences per thread.
Thank you! I am happy that you value my opinion and others' too. Here's what I think on some of your points: > I completely let out the numbers discussion, because quite frankly, barely anyone engages in that on the boards. But you are right, the numbers would have to be adapted for this cause. Yes, maybe I shouldn't have dove so deep or mention any numbers because what matters is the idea, theme and direction of the proposed changes. I just wanted to tip on some issues, some personal and some that I observed from other people. And as you advocate, everyone's opinion matters regardless of who they are or what they play. And then, I wouldn't like Karma to be reworked and after that nerfed in the wrong places(we are quite familiar with this) because the general community would find her too strong or overloaded. About RW heal: I think that you made some really fair points about the RW heal, like being a heal that is preferable for mage/support role, but I think that you missunderstood what I meant. When I said that I would like % missing health because she can then build tanky, what I had in mind are battle mage items like RoA, Morello/Liandry(with the extra HP). Simply put without % heal, building items with HP won't feel that satisfying but on the other hand, if you did have a % heal, it would feel rewarding. Even if the difference would be small like original Karma, who had like 5% missing health heal, it would give you the incentive to build a bit more tanky which is the right choice for a battle mage. Ofc not to the extremes of tank Karma. I agree that the donated RW heal could easily be abused into tank comps but considering that you waste the ability for defensive purposes, you don't proc your passive(if it retains) and you use your ultimate, which should be champion's ability with most impact, don't you think that the RW heal on the ally, regardless if it's squishy or tank, should also have impactful outcome? We are "talking" about the frontline here, someone who has the potential to be focused by 5 people and if the heal would have only raw numbers, it would feel good on squishy ally, useless on tanks. I don't think original Karma abused it with tanks. It really comes down to numbers. Of course that does not mean that I find your proposition bad. I just feel that having % missing health wields a bit more benefits. Or maybe it doesn't and I just need to be proven otherwise hehe. About damage on all mantras: I think that you misunderstood me here as well(maybe it's my bad since I don't have good wording). I think that Karma having damage on every ability is indeed essential. The things that you pointed are something that I agree with. What I meant is that instead of having a mantra that directly deals damage maybe we can make the mantra buff Karma or de-buff her enemies and this way dish out this extra damage trough her other abilities. Kind of link all her abilities. I just proposed an idea of what a reworked RE could be. I personally have nothing against shield-bomb. I loved that ability for what it was even if I had very little time to play with it. But now that so many champions have a shield-bomb like ability, it doesn't feel as unique to me. So I feel apathetic. I want something unique. Something that only Karma can do. Maybe I am being selfish but I, just like many others, want Karma to feel better...unique and that's all. If I could get something more original that does directly or indirectly damage then I will more than welcome it. > Maybe I missed something, but what do you... actually suggest here? Her RE is obviously problematic AF now. Do you want the AoE shield to go? Or the AoE MS? When it comes to things that should and should not be removed I tend to look at original Karma. I never played her and when I joined the Karma community I was a die hard of her current iteration(before the 5.10 changes). It took me time and a lot of discussion with you and other fellow Karma players. But I took this time to learn and understand that Karma and when it finally hit me I felt very satisfied that I did. Her kit, no matter the flaws, had such a genius idea to it. So when it comes to potential mechanics I prefer to look at original Karma, rarely for the current iteration. Original Karma had an AoE move speed. It functioned differently but she had it so I prefer to keep it in her current RE. Removing the AoE shield would be better since it's non existent at this point. It also would remove the interaction of giving your whole team censer buff which is much more utilized in pro scene. It gives a reason to make a defensive ally RW. A compensation, sorts of. I also wanted Karma to get back a clothes-lining effect on the W/RW and let it heal allies who pass trough it. It would be even more reminiscent to original Karma who could AoE heal her team. Unfortunately Riot NeuroCat made some tests and came with the conclusion it doesn't work so I made peace with it. If Riot decides to give it another go I will be more than happy to support it.
: Why Are Karma Players Upset about the Phoenix Video?
It's nice and all to gives these suggestions but do they really matter when it's like talking to a wall? Even if the Karma community agrees that she needs a rework(not all really but lets just pretend for a moment) the others from X champ community don't. 1. Take the Yasuo hate for instance. Even if someone made a very constructive thread about that champion, everyone would still downvote and write down that they do not care about anything and would rather see him stay in a very, very weak state. 2. Then we have Karma who is not so much hated like Yasuo but she suffers from the problem of having a very small community, so small it just can't make a difference when it comes to suggestions or requests...and for that we need help from "outside"(people who don't play/main Karma). But then you return to point 1 so we are pretty much left in an endless cycle with no solution. I think that the Karma community can't fight this battle alone. And since others don't care we are left in a very desperate place. The rework suggestions of fellow Karma players are almost not engaged. Everyone is tired. How do we really keep on? Anyway I hope I can be excused for these philosophical stuff, that no one asked for anyway, and just let me share what I think of the suggestions: 1. RQ ground targeted: It's fine mostly. Right now it's easier to hit RQ at max range and much harder at close range. We are familiar with that RQ that flew "2 microinches" away from the enemy that was near us. Making this ability ground targeted will reverse the range difficulty and make look more like a battle-mage and less of an artillery. My only grip is the damage from the initial hit. It need to be reduced and compensated by increasing the damage on the second half of the ability, the ground explosion. Before the R and RQ ap ration nerf, which needs to be reverted, Karma's RQ hit for too much and by making it ground targeted you take away counterplay from the ability. People can't hide behind minions anymore and for that it would feel oppressive. No, making it harder to hit is not an excuse because that account if the enemy is far but if it's close then it's much easier. That's the drawback. For making it pass trough minions it needs another drawback, in my opinion. Besides you can fire it when someone goes for a minion last hit. 2. Flat RW heal: I agree that in it's current iteration is not healthy but making it pure flat number is like going to the other extreme, in my eyes. I think a much more preferable iteration of the heal was the one from original Karma. It had a mixture of both flat and % values. Making it only flat numbers will feel very punishing if you go for a bit more tanky build. It wouldn't matter if you would have 2k or 3k health. It basically forces you to build only ap. The heal from original Karma rewarded you for building ap because it had good ap scaling but it also rewarded you for gong a bit more tanky because of that % missing health. Of course what and where were the number and scaling is a different thing. What I try to make count is the notion. 3. W/RW ally function: I agree. We can even make it a small % dmg reduction with a threshold if it isn't way too powerful. I guess it would be unique because no other champion can give % reduction to others(if I am not mistaken). 4. Damage from all Mantras: I don't view it as something fundamental. At least I don't think Karma needs damage into all her mantras directly. For example I don't think that Karma needs to get back ___exactly___ her shieldbomb. She can have a new RE and create a spiritual area around the target marking enemies who step inside as defilers and make Karma deal more damage to them. Of course it doesn't mean I am against shieldbomb coming back(don't bully me hehe x) ) 5. Healthy RE and shieldbomb: I wasn't sure if I wanted to add the idea for new RE here or in the previous point so I just kept them separated. I don't think I can argue whether Karma's old RE was healthier back then than right now. Her current RE has worse AOE shield and worse AOE move speed(until you max her E) and no damage(with passive interaction). It just has more shield on primary target and that is not enough to call it stronger. There are a lot other factors that contributed to this. First of all the game itself. New runes, new masteries, new/reworked champion, new/reworked items...they all contributed indirectly to her state. Then we have the fact that we have more cooldown reduction for her mantra(45% with cosmic insight and/or 25% with ultimate hunter) and that it is even easier to get than before. Add in her passive which was buffed to reach "astronomical" numbers and you get a Karma that spams RE giving locket + shurelia + censer buff to her whole team on demand while using her basic skills to reset her Mantra. Changing back her RE to shieldbomb won't solve these problems. Her mantra would need longer cooldown and/or weaker passive and/or some utility removed from RE like the AOE shield(which is barely existent at this point). For the last point it could justify for a new RW ally function. Right now it suffers from the problem that it holds all the utility in Karma's kit(like her RQ holds all the damage). Disperse it a little bit around her kit. 6. CC on RW: I guess the enemy RW extra root is to change into extra damage like "good" old days? As for how long are your threads, just don't worry about it. What is the point of discussions if people are not willing to invest into reading a little bit more anyway.
: Karma 3.0, its time.
Unfortunately Karma is not popular enough to warrant a rework of any kind. The community doesn't care about Karma. They hate her and raged when she was picked at pro play. Everyone that doesn't main Karma will say that she is fine and other champions deserve a rework more even if Karma has been in a need for the longest. It's sad, it's shitty, it's unfair but it's the very bitter truth and I and many other Karma mains hate it to the very depths. But I really like your rework. The solution is not new mechanics or skills and dividing the community further. It's unifying the unique mechanics of old Karma with the modernised archetype of current Karma.
: Karma is a tank/top laner now?
Her RQ ap ratio was also nerfed from 60% to 40%, just not stated on patch notes.
: Ryze is a big problem in proplay. Karma isnt. Lux/ezreal skins dont have anything to do with reworks.
> Ryze is a big problem in proplay. Karma isnt. I am not quite sure what you are trying to imply here but if you mean that Karma is not a problem at all in pro play then I disagree. She has received multiple nerfs because of pro play and even this nerf which is part of worlds patch already indicates that she is a problem. If you mean that Ryze is bigger problem then I already know and here is what I think on the matter: > I don't mind if Riot goes and reworks Ryze 7 times because I see that he is a problem as well and much more popular than Karma so she can wait until she gets work done on her. But when she has to wait not 1, 2 or 3 years...but 6...don't you think that maybe it's time to take on the drawing board and do something already? --- About the skin thing, it was a hyperbole.
: "Only" 3 months to think of a goddamn concept? 3 months to come up with a fucking concept is more than long enough. It's not getting the champion ready for play, or even the initial coding. **Just the idea of what the fuck to do with her**. Assuming a month is 4.5 weeks, that means 13.5 weeks of time, for 67.5 workdays, for 540 total working hours. That's not counting weekends or time he's off work but still trying to think of a concept, and that's assuming he works 8 hours a day for 5 days a week. Even if he just spends an extra 10 minutes a day trying to think of the rework (which isn't terribly unlikely), that's another 15 hours (and 10-20 minutes, depending on whether or not he spends that extra time before or after work). 555 hours. For a full release, that'd probably be a very short amount of time. For a proof of concept that's probably reasonable. For a concept? That's not "not any time". That's more than enough to come up with a fucking **idea** of what to do with the champion. Not even specifics, just an idea.
I agree that 3 month for coming up with concepts and ideas is a lot(and enough) but the time that was given to the rioter also included play-testing the concepts and ideas, round up those that made trough successfully and then enqueue them for new FXs engineering. Unfortunately it didn't made it past the engineering part. Also the rioter herself explained to us that the time that was given to her was very short and not enough. I understand if you are frustrated that we claim these stuff but we don't base them on pure speculation either because we had these discussions with her on boards, reddit and discord. I don't mind if Riot goes and reworks Ryze 7 times because I see that he is a problem as well and much more popular than Karma so she can wait until she gets work done on her. But when she has to wait not 1, 2 or 3 years...but 6...don't you think that maybe it's time to take on the drawing board and do something already?
: its also possible that they have not found a decent rework kit for her
How can they when they don't stop reworking Ryze and releasing Lux/Ahri/Ezreal skin every 6 months? When someone wants something he/she always finds a way to achieve/get it. Riot is no exception.
Falrein (EUW)
: OMG thank you so much T_T If you like those... Well, I assume you're gonna like what's next... 'Cause it's gonna be huge! I assume at some point she would notice the changes, but so far I'd say her judgement is clouded by her anger. And in turn, given Ionia's current status (some sort of... weird... civil war), a lot of people would either try to kill her or use her. Obviously some people would be more forgiving (as seen in Confessions of a Broken Blade) tho! The problem is so far she's only met people trying to kill her, manipulateur her, and they insulted her. I think Syndra's path is gonna be influenced a lot by her next encounters. The more people will try to come at her with malicious intent, the more she'll turn into a big bad. But if she met people trying to be nice, to understand her, she would probably turn "nice" (well, things are not as binary but you get the idea!). I personally think Syndra should be an actor in whatever conflict is going on in Ionia, and that she should actively try to do her thing and change Ionia... She probably believes Balance is responsible for everything that happened to her... So would she try to change it? After all, isn't balance but a barrier, preventing Ionia to see its true potential...? Of course it's questionnable, some would say it's good, some wouldn't, so that'd be an interesting angle to tackle... But that's just me :p
Yes, I guess it depends on the individuals that she meet. The problem with the common folks(the villagers in her bio) was that they lacked the mental ability of acceptance. As pacifists, they just couldn't handle change. The Spirit of Ionia on the other hand seemed to have been quite opposite. It could punish her for destroying the ghost-willow and kill her during her outrage but instead kept her alive. The problem with the Spirit however, was that it's methods, on how to handle things, were kind of bad...actually very bad. What Syndra needs is someone who has the mentality to accept her but also approach her in a more humane way without insulting/disrespecting/harming her. You will probably hate me for this but it's very ironic to me how Syndra, someone who preaches freedom and not being controlled, became a prisoner of her own emotions. While anger can be a very powerful feeling to act as a power boost for a small time it can become your own condemnation if you let it keep up for too long, and that will start eating you up from inside. So yes I believe she really needs to meet the right people who can help her asap. I haven't thought much about the Balance stuff but to me, Ionia trying to return to pure Balance and nothing more is a bad thing. It's like staying in the grey colour area forever. Sometimes you need a little bit more black and sometime a little bit more white. People may argue that pure black and white is boring but when all you have is grey...well doesn't that become boring as well? I think that Syndra should definitely do things herself. We have a saying in our country, and pretty much all the countries I am sure, that if you want something done then you have to do it yourself. If Syndra thinks that the people are afraid of change then she should show them(in the right way) that there is nothing to be feared. Yes, she was betrayed twice but does giving up, and letting her negative emotions take control of her, going to fix her problems? This path of "surrender" is one that everyone can take but the other one where she keeps going no matter how much she is betrayed, how hard it is, is one which few walked, struggled and passed...and one that puts her above the rest since she achieved something that few did. It makes her more, not just in raw power, but like it's her own type of enlightenment...growth. Of course I don't want her to become pacifist hehe. *imagines Syndra in monk robes sitting and meditating xP Ofc this may come as confusing to you but I am no native english speaker so if you have questions or something go ahead. Have a good day beautiful human being(I am no ass-licker! I just return the favour ;)).
Falrein (EUW)
: Syndra's timeline and her cursed name
You know, maybe the people might be annoyed by the amount of Syndra threads that you make and even that you try to fit her in, in everything and everywhere...but I, at least, don't care. Your dedication to your champ is so big that you come up with those amazing headcanons and theories. And what is better than trying to come up with ideas that make your favourite champ more than what it already is... I am really curious, since Syndra was imprisoned during a time when Ionia was full pacifist mode and now when she awakened from her prison after the Noxian war, would she notice the change trough which the land and people went(if they did at all)? So that it could act like a testimony that people can change and maybe accept her for who she is? She is flying with a half fortress after all so she should be able to observe. And even then, would their judgment be clouded by her curse name even if it was used only to scare delinquents?
Falrein (EUW)
: Ionia's possible storylines and the Noxian problem
I don't know how to feel about all this as well. The first invasion that happened was fine(imo). It does tie Noxus too tightly to Ionia but it's no one's fault considering what Ionia was before that invasion. Layered out pacifism, peace, meditation...it was a boring paradise island. They lived in their own bubble and refused change...absolutely pure stagnation. When you have such pillar/s to start the story of the region what else is there to be expected? Now, the second invasion may or may not be a good thing. I personally have no problem with it as long as it's just not invade, conquer and expand 2.0! It may also be what most people are concerned with as well. Repetitiveness is a bad thing. But the thing is that we don't have enough insight on what is the purpose of that invasion. It leaves us with no answers and very little to debate, very little to craft our own theories(since there isn't much about Ionia).It just leaves us under suspense. ***The Ionian Wars*** I think that they may be a good thing to explore but as long as it wields some kind of importance or consequences/aftereffect in the present. Why bother wasting time telling stories which are just a relic of the past, only to return back to the present, empty handed? I don't think that it will be 100% useless to explore those wars, no, I myself am excited to learn what they were. It's just...that it would be such a waste not to take advantage of them. The possibilities of how to explore these wars are many. We have Karma from whom we can learn a lot. If those wars were very violent and scarring, it could also explain why she is such a traditionalist and pacifist? But then she could be too young to have any idea of what they were. We know that no one knows anything about them...or is it just what some people want everyone to think? What if there are some kind of ancient(forbidden) books and documents about these wars? Some people could potentially try really hard to hide them and prevent anyone from learning anything. Could that knowledge be something disastrous? We can have someone steal that reading mater. But who? The Kinkou? The Shadow order? The last being most likely. Or it could be some random people/group. If all of the above doesn't work, we can have a very old spirit tell the stories to curious kids/people to frighten them? Okay, this probably is not going where I want it to :D. ***The Civil Wars*** To me these "wars" feel very unsatisfying. They don't have enough "meat", enough reason, to make you feel that they may result into something big. It's a couple of insignificant groups and Irelia is on cleaning duties...since she has nothing else to do anyway. It doesn't feel problematic enough. Maybe they are, but I personally do not feel like they offer any real threat. Or is it intentionally looking like that? We have Ionia being about unity. On the other hand it's divided into provinces. So what is it? If we can have the continent divided into provinces with different ideals then why did it become such a big problem after the invasion? ***Spirit Magic and Spirit Realm*** I don't quite understand who tried to shut you up? If they were fans, maybe they can share what they think on the matter and offer ideas how to progress? And if they were Rioters then idk why they would do such an unprofessional thing. Everyone should be open to ideas and discussions! I personally really want to learn more about the Spirit Realm. I know that we got a little bit of insight with Lulu's lore update but I want more(also about the celestial realm). Shen is a such good candidate! We had enough of his drama with Zed and following him after his every footstep(and trying to fix his shit). Give the man a break with a relaxing spiritual vacation. ***Vastaya*** I was thinking...humans harness spirit magic but does that magic disappear forever? Isn't it like energy? People can soak magic but when it's used and released, can't the land reabsorb it back somehow? Like in Rakan's/Zed's/Xayah's video, Zed is absorbing the magic in a quinlon(?) but after Xayah destroys it, it spreads the magic around and the land reabsorbs it. I may be interpreting it wrong but ah well. If someone can shed a bit more light? ***Zed and the Order of Shadows*** It depends on how corruptive his doings are? For the Vastaya it may be really bad but for humans it's indifferent? I haven't read Zed's story/ies much but can he use his magic to corrupt other humans? On what scale? I would probably ask why Shen doesn't sense anything but I have already listed my opinion about Zed + Shen. ***Syndra*** To me Syndra is in a very, very weird place. If she is written to be a "villain" we have no one to oppose her unless you make armies and then in the end it just means she may be killed or imprisoned and never mentioned again(there are other options but are unlikely to happen). If she is imprisoned we can have "a la Jhin, gonna use you for my benefits 2.0" and that is already unoriginal + we know that Syndra is in a such "negative" state only because someone tried to use/control her. Doesn't work. Having her killed is also a wasted opportunity. Now, having someone die is not something I am against. But why have her killed when you can have her live twice longer and thus do twice more and bigger stuff? You literally write a character with enormous/limitless potential only to have her killed after she awakens from her enchantment? I know Riot won't kill her right away but I think that is the less beneficial route to take. But then keeping her alive and sway her on the good site(hello goody two-shoes!xD...not) she has nothing to fight against. Who? The Navori Brotherhood and the Noxians who are humans? Bitch, Syndra will wipe the floor so clean with them that the Immortal bastion will start shining in comparison to their faces. ***Foreign Lands*** I will admit that it does look interesting...but(yes the but)...I don't feel like it will happen in a very long time. We just had a new region and it was received poorly. There is no enough information about the region, others judge it unfairly because of Qiyana. And the thing is, releasing a new region means that the narrative team has to work harder and provide enough material for all the regions and when those region increase...and increase...it will just reach a point where they have to stop and maintain what they have, simply because they have limited time. We also have other potential places to explore...to the south of... Runeterra(I forgot the continent name, I am sucker for names ;/) or north of Freljord. I guess you get the idea. P.S. I see no problem with your thread, it's so nice and constructive. If the boards could only be filled with such nice and amazing discussions/threads it would be wonderful. So worry not! All is good. Thx for the invite btw!
d00mface (EUW)
: Why would they fight? They're boyfriends. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
I mean, couples fight all the time...for everything. Who will vacuum? Who will cook? Who is on top...okay this is going wrong places.
: Aatrox is a pretty big dude, but he's made out of meat so he'd be at least somewhat buoyant. Plus he could reshape his body to swim faster. Morde, on the other hand, is so darn heavy and metal he'd have to walk along the bottom of the pool, so he'd take way longer to get across. I'm giving this one to Aatrox. Oh, you mean like a _fight_ .
Eating contest! They **are** bulky after all hehe xP
Falrein (EUW)
: > And one of the best parts as I have mentioned is that Riot can introduce some crazy threat to Ionia...like the Watchers(or less powerful) which will give them the opportunity to make a co-op story with Syndra and Karma where they try to work together and overcome this obstacle. So here's the thing - YES, I would love that. However, my current problem with Ionia... Is that any attempt of really big threat so far has been with Noxus. I would _definitely_ love an enormous Spirit Realm-related threat in Ionia (and, not just Syndra being Syndra, and Zed saying fck you to Spirit Magic). But again... I feel like it's always about Noxus. I have nothing against them invading Ionia (they'll get their asses kicked again anyway kappa), but like... I don't know how to explain it? D: > I don't think that you should be bothered with that my friend. I didn't mention that Karma is a spirit randomly. From what I understand(and I could be wrong) being a spirit already gives you an advantage and in terms of Karma it's thousands of spirits. So the simple fact that Syndra, a mere mortal, can match and even beat such a thing is remarkable in itself. While this most certainly is true in a general matter, I'm not sure how true of a statement that is in Ionia where Spirit Magic is a thing, especially against someone who's a living, walking nuclear reactor that fucks up Spirit Magic and whose powers do weird shenanigans on souls/spirits! > Well I guess a way to approach it is to make Karma win the first fight because of her advantage( and Syndra's disadvantage) only to have Syndra become stronger later on and beat Karma(the other way around doesn't make sense to me, like becoming stronger and lose to Karma?). But for me this also feels unsatisfying. It _does_ feel like an anime fight where the protagonist loses to the bad guy to then become stronger and win :')! > To have Syndra finally get her first grand battle only...to lose it? This is why I keep repeating on that compromise like someone who is insane, because for me at least it would feel less bad than have either one lose the battle. After that "drawback" we can still have a lot of cool fights where they handle incredibly powerful beings/champions/entities. My turn to sound like a broken record, I definitely would love that last part. Sadly, almost every time we've gotten around Ionia, it was mostly about the Noxian invasion (which is fair given the big shakeup, but feels bad imo but that's another problem altogether), leaving little to no room for a bigger threat (unless they want to make Syndra that threat? I've always preferred thinking that she wouldn't be "Ionia's big bad" but they could pull that out). I'm not sure how much of a compromise there can be, 'cause as I said Syndra is not in the right state of mind to agree to anything - she'd see Karma as just another person who'd try to control her, despite Karma's best intentions. I mean, again I can think of some things but it would involve Irelia and a very cliché type of scene where Syndra's defeated by both and Irelia just goes "Syndra bad, me kill" and Karma "Syndra only misunderstood, me protecc" to show Syndra, in a way, that she has good intentions? Totally random and cliché - It's my jam! x') > would also encourage you to not feel down when Syndra loses a fight because this is a good thing. You may cringe and think "What is this person even talking about?". What I mean is that when I character loses a fight it only means that there is a lot of growth for them to do. And in your case you can only get to relate to Syndra even more, to "join" her on her journey of becoming this powerful sovereign. And don't you think that it will an interesting journey to follow? To see where she arrives at the end...how much she grows? It's not so much about losing as much as it is about who she's losing against. Y'know it feels bad when your character just loses against someone weaker. For instance, Syndra losing to Karma would be fine (well, as a main it would feel a bit bad of course, but it'd be fine), whereas Syndra losing to Lux (I know it's an impossible scenario) would feel really... Let's just say I'd feel enough negative emotions to blow up the entire island I live on. :') I don't know how familiar you are with other IPs, but it'd be like seeing Azshara losing to Jaina. Gods forbid. I definitely agree and think Syndra has a long way to go if she wants to grow, and reach her true potential. The reason why I wouldn't be mad if she lost is because her theme, while definitely including power, has always been about potential and how far she could go if she was willing to learn and focus, so yeah, I'm more interested about just how powerful she can get (it's more of a headcanon of mine and totally tainted by bias, but I think she could surpass every mage that has lived on Runeterra before, and that's the shit I live for! I'm probably wrong tho, but thinking about it feels good). > I can only share that sentiment with you my friend! It is indeed really nice to have a constructive discussion where both sides respect each other's opinions. Yeah, this doesn't feel right. When do we start flaming each other? {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
> So here's the thing - YES, I would love that. However, my current problem with Ionia... Is that any attempt of really big threat so far has been with Noxus. I would definitely love an enormous Spirit Realm-related threat in Ionia (and, not just Syndra being Syndra, and Zed saying fck you to Spirit Magic). But again... I feel like it's always about Noxus. I have nothing against them invading Ionia (they'll get their asses kicked again anyway kappa), but like... I don't know how to explain it? D: I think I understand what you mean and I absolutely agree. I did suspect that they might try the "invaded by noxus yet again" card especially because of Swain's new in-game lines. But I just wish that there were more things in Ionia. Particularly grand threats(not named Noxus as you mentioned). > It does feel like an anime fight where the protagonist loses to the bad guy to then become stronger and win :')! Tbh I have mentioned that I don't wanna see Karma lose to Syndra but not just because I don't want Karma to lose and it will feel bad. It's just that Karma doesn't look strong(and no one is to blame when the only thing she has is her bio and a few snippets of the new cinematic...where Riot for some god damn reason thought it would be good to showcase her how she boost Yas.............Yes I am mad). Everyone thinks that Syndra will snap her fingers and in a second Karma is lying on the ground dead. I don't like this idea. I like to think that Karma will put up a very good and tough fight with Syndra. Heck I would even be up for an anime-like battle where they fight for days. I wanna see them do some crazy stuff...Karma hurling hadoukens and Syndra lifting multiple mountains and throwing them at Karma. For such a fight I wouldn't mind if my champion would lose. But then does Syndra have anyone who can sway her away from her current state if she emerges victorious? I guess Karma can call the Spirit of Ionia for help during the battle? I don't know, maybe at this point I am banal with my repetitiveness so I will stop discussing about it. You already know what I think of it. > I'm not sure how much of a compromise there can be, 'cause as I said Syndra is not in the right state of mind to agree to anything - she'd see Karma as just another person who'd try to control her, despite Karma's best intentions. And this is where Karma shines imo. She may be lacking in raw power in comparison to Syndra but her true strength is her incredible wisdom and knowledge. I think that she can convince Syndra to reconsider her stance. Karma is not like the rest of the elders. The Ionian people may have abandoned her but not the lands. She destroyed an ancient tree, killed her mentor and threw a tantrum and yet the Spirit of Ionia decided to keep her alive? Why? I think it's because it didn't give up on Syndra and the Spirit senses that she has a much bigger and better role to play. Syndra was just betrayed...by her family, the people and her mentor. And if her soul was so much tainted and scarred from these mischiefs then I don't think the Spirit would bother at keeping her alive. There is still hope and I personally don't think she needs to be beaten in a battle to understand it. > It's not so much about losing as much as it is about who she's losing against. Y'know it feels bad when your character just loses against someone weaker. For instance, Syndra losing to Karma would be fine (well, as a main it would feel a bit bad of course, but it'd be fine) Now, now, I know it won't! :D But I understand why. Karma does indeed look weak, like the average mage. So having Syndra being defeated by such a low-looking class mage just takes away from her character and selling points. But I just think that Karma is very underestimated. She is like that old looking book judged by her dusty, worn and old covers but her true strength lies within, the contents. I can ofc be wrong since it is up to Riot to decide how strong she is and whether she is worthy of Syndra's time. > Yeah, this doesn't feel right. When do we start flaming each other? I'll give you the courtesy of a head start! {{sticker:sg-syndra}}
: > Well personally I do think Syndra is stronger than Karma especially in terms of raw power. But that is only because it's Syndra's selling point. Karma is not about that. Perhaps you're right. Although, It seems a lot to me like the Yoda vs Palpatine situation where both represent equal and opposite extremes. Palpatine was more powerful in his raw offensive use of the force, yet Yoda was able to stalemate him because of his skill, wisdom, and power in the light side. Considering Karma and Syndra's designs, they both look like avatars of Ionian magic; one light and the other dark. It would seem weird to me if Syndra was able to just "crush" her (lol). Of course, I could just be reading the characters wrong. > I don't know how you feel about all this my friend but what draw me to Karma was her incredible calm and wise approach to things in combination with her unwavering will. You can put her against someone like Aurelion Sol and certainly condemn her to her death but she will never fall on her knees and accept defeat. I am drawn to the same things. I think her commitment to peace, and her understanding of the "wisdom in war" make her super interesting character. This idea of seeing two paths and finding another in between is quite resonant on many levels. Your Aurelion Sol example is interesting also because it raises questions I have about the hierarchy of magic in Runeterra. How does does spirit magic (in all in it's variants) rank against cosmic or elemental magic? Naturally, I would expect Aurelion Sol to be more powerful than any individual mage, but it would be cool to see how these different powers stack up against one another. > This is why I don't care if there are stronger champions than her. Do I think it would be cool for her to be one of the most powerful characters in the lore? Sure! But this is not my biggest wish for her and as long as the things(which I have mentioned) are present I am happy what she is. After her recton they were not so yes I had issues but after the "fix" I am all good(for now). For sure. Although I'm curious to know, her power level in the lore isn't important to me either. Even if she does to turn out to be comparatively weak to other characters (which wouldn't surprise me), as long as she's the same calm, wise, bad b!tch I talking in-game when I play her, she'll remain my fav xD. > Besides, she doens't need more raw power...she needs a proper gameplay thematic!(sorry I couldn't resist xP) 100% agree, Riot is dropping the ball on her big time lol.
> Considering Karma and Syndra's designs, they both look like avatars of Ionian magic; one light and the other dark. It would seem weird to me if Syndra was able to just "crush" her (lol). Of course, I could just be reading the characters wrong. Tbh I thought of the same thing on multiple occasions, however the recent changes to Karma's and Syndra's lore suggest that it's actually very unlikely. I mean we had them enwrapped in their magic with glowing eyes, both wearing a mantle of decorum and even share a line. But the mantle of decorum was retconned and even the relationship between them on the universe pages. Also if they were from different side of the same coin then I think that it would limit the potential interaction between them. I mean if you are part of the coin then you know what is the other half...what is there to learn more about it? When they exist individually they have much more to learn about each other. They are unique in their own way. You may not understand what I mean but I guess that's what you get when my english is bad xD. > Your Aurelion Sol example is interesting also because it raises questions I have about the hierarchy of magic in Runeterra. How does does spirit magic (in all in it's variants) rank against cosmic or elemental magic? Naturally, I would expect Aurelion Sol to be more powerful than any individual mage, but it would be cool to see how these different powers stack up against one another. Yes indeed it is an interesting question! I guess Riot likes to drop a bone here and there answering some questions...and even on twitter as far as I know? Tbh I wish that the Karma community was more "demanding" from the narrative team and asked questions about her. But when she has so many in-game problems people just don't have the time to think of her lore and place in Runeterra.
: I know this comment wasn't to me, but you raised some very interesting points! xD > Karma is not just a human, she is an ancient spirit. If we talk about the vessel Darha then yes, Syndra will crush her. However because of that spirit(or whatever it is)she is able to enter her mantra state and connect to all her past lives. Now I don't know how the rules in runeterra work but Karma seems to be inspired by the animated show "Avatar: The Last Airbender" where connecting to the past lives allow them to combine their powers. If the same rules work for Karma then it's basically Karma combining the powers of thousands of people/souls. And not just people but elders who are considered to be very strong mages. It's will be basically a Syndra vs an army of thousands of people/souls. That's an interesting way to look at it. The way I see Karma is that Darha is what makes this Karma special; she has the powers of Karma, and the accumulated wisdom, but what makes her truly powerful is her individual will and resolve. Where the previous Karma's were likely pure pacifists, Darha isn't. "I know your spirit, but I must stop your heart." - The words of a powerful woman with the conviction to do what needs to be done. > Karma doesn't just combine her powers but she also receives guidance, wisdom and knowledge from them. I personally believe that knowledge is as important as raw power. I haven't read Karma's bio in a while, but I vaguely remember a line stating that after she blew up the Noxians, the voices "guiding" her disappeared. > Karma herself is inexperienced and has a lot to learn. I mean, she hasn't used her powers offensively for thousand of years and then when she did for the first time, she blows a whole ship. It's just that Karma doesn't look flashy. It's the curse of her character. When you have someone lift a fortress everyone thinks he/she is powerful but if you have someone create a shield and/or heal it looks boring so every thinks that that character is weak. But do we know how difficult is to use protective barriers? I mean a barrier to be able to block a spell has to be as powerful as the offensive spell, no? An excellent point, and one that makes me hesitant to just proclaim Syndra to be _more powerful_ than Karma. Syndra is chaotic and a lot more offensive in the application of her powers, but who's to say that necessarily makes her more powerful? > I think that in a fight it will be 70/30 in favour for Syndra...or even 80/20. But I do think Karma can hold her ground. Maybe I am biased, maybe not. This is why I think the best compromise that can be made is to make them fight, showcase their powers but have no winners. It's doesn't """downgrade""" any of them. See now, I would expect it to be a 50/50 thing if they fought, with both cancelling each other out. At least I would hope so, for the reason you said. Making one beat the other would kinda make one of them look bad. Also, from a design perspective they both look like equal opposites. Two integral forces of Ionia in need of representation... if you get what I mean? xD
> The way I see Karma is that Darha is what makes this Karma special; she has the powers of Karma, and the accumulated wisdom, but what makes her truly powerful is her individual will and resolve. Where the previous Karma's were likely pure pacifists, Darha isn't. "I know your spirit, but I must stop your heart." - The words of a powerful woman with the conviction to do what needs to be done. I absolutely understand what you mean. When she got her third(?) retcon and made her into a pure pacifist it made me so upset and angry that I wanted to make even more condescending thread than any of Winter's(no offense Winter!). But I was relieved after a rioter posted that they listened to our feedback. > I haven't read Karma's bio in a while, but I vaguely remember a line stating that after she blew up the Noxians, the voices "guiding" her disappeared. She can still hear them...just not as loud as before? They are just really upset about how Darha used her powers. But would they keep this "kindergarden" attitude if Karma had to face Syndra? Someone who can wipe Karma from existence forever? They could of course still resolve to their pacifist ideals and decide to die than use action but then they are condemning their land and people to a very long suffering and pain, especially in Syndra's current state. And for someone who wishes to guide his/her people and land to a better future I think that Karma would make a huge compromise and let Darha use all of Karma's offensive power, just for that fight...and any of such a degree really. I mean at the end Darha will slap some sense into these oldies hehe. > An excellent point, and one that makes me hesitant to just proclaim Syndra to be more powerful than Karma. Syndra is chaotic and a lot more offensive in the application of her powers, but who's to say that necessarily makes her more powerful? Well personally I do think Syndra is stronger than Karma especially in terms of raw power. But that is only because it's Syndra's selling point. Karma is not about that. I don't know how you feel about all this my friend but what draw me to Karma was her incredible calm and wise approach to things in combination with her unwavering will. You can put her against someone like Aurelion Sol and certainly condemn her to her death but she will never fall on her knees and accept defeat. "An ideal is nothing...until you fight for it"! This is why I don't care if there are stronger champions than her. Do I think it would be cool for her to be one of the most powerful characters in the lore? Sure! But this is not my biggest wish for her and as long as the things(which I have mentioned) are present I am happy what she is. After her recton they were not so yes I had issues but after the "fix" I am all good(for now). Besides, she doens't need more raw power...she needs a proper gameplay thematic!(sorry I couldn't resist xP)
: > [{quoted}](name=alekzu,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WYKF0lE4,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-27T19:28:15.354+0000) > > I don't think Syndra vs Karma in a 1vs1 fight is impossible. I think that Karma is very underestimated(or maybe I am overestimating her?). > > 1. Karma is not just a human, she is an ancient spirit. If we talk about the vessel Darha then yes, Syndra will crush her. However because of that spirit(or whatever it is)she is able to enter her mantra state and connect to all her past lives. Now I don't know how the rules in runeterra work but Karma seems to be inspired by the animated show "Avatar: The Last Airbender" where connecting to the past lives allow them to combine their powers. If the same rules work for Karma then it's basically Karma combining the powers of thousands of people/souls. And not just people but elders who are considered to be very strong mages. It's will be basically a Syndra vs an army of thousands of people/souls. > > 2. Karma doesn't just combine her powers but she also receives guidance, wisdom and knowledge from them. I personally believe that knowledge is as important as raw power. Off-topic but I always viewed that young mages have a lot of magic and powerful body but lack the knowledge to cast that cool and fearsome spell so they wander trough the world seeking that knowledge until they are ready. But then they are too old and their body can't take the stress from the spell so what do they do? They find an apprentice to pass on that knowledge and make them cast that powerful spell. It's like progression of the generations. Now you wonder why I even write that? Well it's because I believe that even though Syndra has insane amount of raw power she lacks the knowledge to cast them deadly spells. She is not weak, it's just that Karma has the advantage who can tap to that knowledge and cast some tricky spells. > > 3. Karma herself is inexperienced and has a lot to learn. I mean, she hasn't used her powers offensively for thousand of years and then when she did for the first time, she blows a whole ship. It's just that Karma doesn't look flashy. It's the curse of her character. When you have someone lift a fortress everyone thinks he/she is powerful but if you have someone create a shield and/or heal it looks boring so every thinks that that character is weak. But do we know how difficult is to use protective barriers? I mean a barrier to be able to block a spell has to be as powerful as the offensive spell, no? > > 3. Even if Syndra killed Karma then Karma can just reincarnate into her next life and use the experience from the battle in her advantage especially if Syndra doesn't know that Karma can incarnate. Ofc in one of the stories it is mentioned that Syndra does some wierd stuff to the soul so we don't know how it will affect Karma. Will it damage her and weaken her so she won't be as powerful as before after her reincarnation? Or will it permanently destroy her? We don't know really. > > Ofc I won't be denying that I have a lot of bias towards my favourite champion. So seeing her lose will upset me. I don't think anyone likes to see their champion lose because it showcases them as weak and no one wants to be relatable to a weak character right? But I will not deny that Syndra is stronger than Karma in terms of raw power. I think that in a fight it will be 70/30 in favour for Syndra...or even 80/20. But I do think Karma can hold her ground. Maybe I am biased, maybe not. > This is why I think the best compromise that can be made is to make them fight, showcase their powers but have no winners. It's doesn't """downgrade""" any of them. > > As for them being friends...I like the idea. Imagine what they can do together. Teach each other, train and refine their powers. Karma staying in the back and protecting while Syndra going on the front, creating chaos and fear in her enemies. They don't have to be enemies and they can respect each other. What is white without dark? Order without chaos? Same way...Karma uses more...passive approach while Syndra uses more aggressive approach. > > You may disagree with some of my points but I guess it's what makes these discussion so interesting! When you have some one who you agree with in everything there is just...nothing to discuss at all, hehe. I hope I didn't insult you somehow! very good post! I will say though, that last point is kinda negated by the fact that Karma reincarnated would mean having to be born again, learn her powers, and be discovered. she does not just to into another body good as new lol.
Tbh I was left with the impression that no one is born as Karma. Here is a snippet from her bio: > Just when it seemed she would be confined to the healing huts forever, a group of monks visited her village. They had come from a place known as the Lasting Altar, where the divine leader Karma _**had passed away some months earlier**_. ... They recognized the signs immediately. This was their Karma. _**The visions were past lives rushing to fill a new vessel**_. Pretty much it implies that once Karma dies she/he chooses an already born successor to enter/imbue him/her. In her current bio it's a 12-year old girl. But what are the chances that it won't be a grown-up person? Or even an elder? It would probably be a waste to imbue such an old person(who will soon die) but he will at least have easier time to connect to the past lives? Ofc it all depends on how easy it is because in her bio it said that the monks taught her how to connect for years. They don't need to teach her anything else imo. The monks themselves probably learn from Karma so in that case Karma can probably teach her vessel directly everything it needs to know. The hard part is connecting to those past lives.
Falrein (EUW)
: Oh don't get me wrong! I definitely think Karma can put up a fight - out of all the (current) Ionian champions she'd be the one that could put up the best fight against Syndra. I mean she's powerful in her own right. Of course this is something we'll never agree on because y'know, bias :p I understand where you come from, and agree that it always feels bad to see your favourite character lose - but then you can never have actual fights if you know it never ends with a winner! I do think it's fair to expect both wins and losses from them, because it's annoying if a character always wins/loses. I don't think Karma is weak at all. Of course I'd be inclined to say Syndra is more powerful - that's kind of what her theme is about and you're allowed to disagree! Would I be bothered if Karma won to/evenly matched Syndra in a pure 1v1? I would, because it kind of undermines the threat she's supposed to represent if she can be so easily countered. I'm guessing you would be bothered if it was the other way around as well, and it's totally understandable! I view Syndra (wrongly perhaps, I idealize her way too much) as one of the most powerful mortals on Runeterra. She basically threw a tantrum and fcked up a whole island. I think her biggest weakness is her inexperience and her temper, so I'm guessing putting that in the equation would give Karma an edge...? If I'm being truly honest, and it pains me to say so, I think Syndra will be taken down "soon". She'll probably cause some (big) damage here and there, and will then be stopped. I think, in order to grow, that she has to lose at some point (because I don't view Syndra as someone you can reason with in her current state of mind). If Karma is the one to do it then so be it, I can accept that... With bitterness, but it's not like I have the choice anyway :')! As I said I'd rather have it done by several people, but I'm just trying to give Syndra some more importance (and there's a whole Discord server who'd disagree with that :p). Also no worries, I'm always open to discussions :p We just disagree on that because it puts our respective mains against each other - it's neither insulting nor offensive! I'm actually glad to see that this discussion isn't just a dick contest but a more rational one :p
> I understand where you come from, and agree that it always feels bad to see your favourite character lose - but then you can never have actual fights if you know it never ends with a winner! I do think it's fair to expect both wins and losses from them, because it's annoying if a character always wins/loses. I understand what you mean but you can have snip into my reply to RyzeTheSmurfMage which is: > But without any result ever, it'd make fights useless wouldn't it? ----------------- > Yes but I didn't mean that it should happen for all characters and all the time. This is more of a personal wish where I like Syndra enough to not see her lose and as a Karma main I don't wanna see her lose either. Hence why it's a compromise. You can still have them both fight other champions(after their fight) and have winners or losers or you can introduce non-champion threats that are more powerful than both Karma and Syndra individually, like the Watchers for example. Not as strong as Watchers ofc but something that truly force them to overcome their limits and take things seriously. And to add to this and probably sound like a broken record at this point, it will be such a huge benefit for both of them. On the one had we have Karma who has just discovered her offensive and destructive powers and who is better than Syndra to train her? Meanwhile Syndra is lacking understanding and knowledge of her powers meanwhile having difficulty keeping a calm head and who is better than Karma to do that? It's like they are unintentionally pulling to each other like magnets. And one of the best parts as I have mentioned is that Riot can introduce some crazy threat to Ionia...like the Watchers(or less powerful) which will give them the opportunity to make a co-op story with Syndra and Karma where they try to work together and overcome this obstacle. > I don't think Karma is weak at all. Of course I'd be inclined to say Syndra is more powerful - that's kind of what her theme is about and you're allowed to disagree! I don't disagree, on the contrary I said that in terms of raw power Syndra is stronger and has higher chance of winning a battle against Karma. > Would I be bothered if Karma won to/evenly matched Syndra in a pure 1v1? I don't think that you should be bothered with that my friend. I didn't mention that Karma is a spirit randomly. From what I understand(and I could be wrong) being a spirit already gives you an advantage and in terms of Karma it's thousands of spirits. So the simple fact that Syndra, a mere mortal, can match and even beat such a thing is remarkable in itself. > I view Syndra (wrongly perhaps, I idealize her way too much) as one of the most powerful mortals on Runeterra. She basically threw a tantrum and fcked up a whole island. I think her biggest weakness is her inexperience and her temper, so I'm guessing putting that in the equation would give Karma an edge...? If I'm being truly honest, and it pains me to say so, I think Syndra will be taken down "soon". She'll probably cause some (big) damage here and there, and will then be stopped. I think, in order to grow, that she has to lose at some point (because I don't view Syndra as someone you can reason with in her current state of mind). If Karma is the one to do it then so be it, I can accept that... With bitterness, but it's not like I have the choice anyway :')! Well I guess a way to approach it is to make Karma win the first fight because of her advantage( and Syndra's disadvantage) only to have Syndra become stronger later on and beat Karma(the other way around doesn't make sense to me, like becoming stronger and lose to Karma?). But for me this also feels unsatisfying. To have Syndra finally get her first grand battle only...to lose it? This is why I keep repeating on that compromise like someone who is insane, because for me at least it would feel less bad than have either one lose the battle. After that "drawback" we can still have a lot of cool fights where they handle incredibly powerful beings/champions/entities. I would also encourage you to not feel down when Syndra loses a fight because this is a good thing. You may cringe and think "What is this person even talking about?". What I mean is that when I character loses a fight it only means that there is a lot of growth for them to do. And in your case you can only get to relate to Syndra even more, to "join" her on her journey of becoming this powerful sovereign. And don't you think that it will an interesting journey to follow? To see where she arrives at the end...how much she grows? > Also no worries, I'm always open to discussions :p We just disagree on that because it puts our respective mains against each other - it's neither insulting nor offensive! I'm actually glad to see that this discussion isn't just a dick contest but a more rational one :p I can only share that sentiment with you my friend! It is indeed really nice to have a constructive discussion where both sides respect each other's opinions.
: > [{quoted}](name=alekzu,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WYKF0lE4,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-27T19:28:15.354+0000) > > I don't think Syndra vs Karma in a 1vs1 fight is impossible. I think that Karma is very underestimated(or maybe I am overestimating her?). > 1. Karma is not just a human, she is an ancient spirit. If we talk about the vessel Darha then yes, Syndra will crush her. However because of that spirit(or whatever it is)she is able to enter her mantra state and connect to all her past lives. Now I don't know how the rules in runeterra work but Karma seems to be inspired by the animated show "Avatar: The Last Airbender" where connecting to the past lives allow them to combine their powers. If the same rules work for Karma then it's basically Karma combining the powers of thousands of people/souls. And not just people but elders who are considered to be very strong mages. It's will be basically a Syndra vs an army of thousands of people/souls. Any evidence on that? Did she ever do that? It'd be cool if she did but Im just asking for source for sake of fairness > 2. Karma doesn't just combine her powers but she also receives guidance, wisdom and knowledge from them. I personally believe that knowledge is as important as raw power. Off-topic but I always viewed that young mages have a lot of magic and powerful body but lack the knowledge to cast that cool and fearsome spell so they wander trough the world seeking that knowledge until they are ready. But then they are too old and their body can't take the stress from the spell so what do they do? They find an apprentice to pass on that knowledge and make them cast that powerful spell. It's like progression of the generations. Now you wonder why I even write that? Well it's because I believe that even though Syndra has insane amount of raw power she lacks the knowledge to cast them deadly spells. She is not weak, it's just that Karma has the advantage who can tap to that knowledge and cast some tricky spells. Def agree. Syndra has raw power as in telekinessis and bursts of power (ah and the spheres) but she doesn't have the knowledge to cast even more lethal spells (which with her raw power would be devastating) > 3. Karma herself is inexperienced and has a lot to learn. I mean, she hasn't used her powers offensively for thousand of years and then when she did for the first time, she blows a whole ship. It's just that Karma doesn't look flashy. It's the curse of her character. When you have someone lift a fortress everyone thinks he/she is powerful but if you have someone create a shield and/or heal it looks boring so every thinks that that character is weak. But do we know how difficult is to use protective barriers? I mean a barrier to be able to block a spell has to be as powerful as the offensive spell, no? Agreed, but you can't usually beat someone with just shields. You'd need a mix of defensive and offensive power imo. > 3. Even if Syndra killed Karma then Karma can just reincarnate into her next life and use the experience from the battle in her advantage especially if Syndra doesn't know that Karma can incarnate. Ofc in one of the stories it is mentioned that Syndra does some wierd stuff to the soul so we don't know how it will affect Karma. Will it damage her and weaken her so she won't be as powerful as before after her reincarnation? Or will it permanently destroy her? We don't know really. Tbh I dislike the "dies but will come back" argument because incap counts as a win in my book at least > Ofc I won't be denying that I have a lot of bias towards my favourite champion. So seeing her lose will upset me. I don't think anyone likes to see their champion lose because it showcases them as weak and no one wants to be relatable to a weak character right? But I will not deny that Syndra is stronger than Karma in terms of raw power. I think that in a fight it will be 70/30 in favour for Syndra...or even 80/20. But I do think Karma can hold her ground. Maybe I am biased, maybe not. > This is why I think the best compromise that can be made is to make them fight, showcase their powers but have no winners. It's doesn't """downgrade""" any of them. But without any result ever, it'd make fights useless wouldn't it? > As for them being friends...I like the idea. Imagine what they can do together. Teach each other, train and refine their powers. Karma staying in the back and protecting while Syndra going on the front, creating chaos and fear in her enemies. They don't have to be enemies and they can respect each other. What is white without dark? Order without chaos? Same way...Karma uses more...passive approach while Syndra uses more aggressive approach. > > You may disagree with some of my points but I guess it's what makes these discussion so interesting! When you have some one who you agree with in everything there is just...nothing to discuss at all, hehe. I hope I didn't insult you somehow!
> Any evidence on that? Did she ever do that? It'd be cool if she did but Im just asking for source for sake of fairness Depends on what. If it's about connecting to her past lives then it's mentioned in her bio but if it's about combining powers then all I can say it's a presumption/theory of mine, hence why I said that I don't how it works in Runeterra. But the only reason why I believe it may have little bit of truth is because her writer was part of the narrative of "Avatar: The Last Airbender" animated show. > Agreed, but you can't usually beat someone with just shields. You'd need a mix of defensive and offensive power imo. Depends on how you wish to beat them. For someone like Karma it would be enough. She is after all a character who prefers to talk things out first and if she can shield off a powerful spell to protect herself, meanwhile try to resolve the problems/issues with her attacker then she doesn't need to cast spells which destroys half of Runeterra. Also as I mentioned we don't have evidence how much it requires to cast a powerful barrier which may either imply that mages who cast powerful barrier can also cast powerful offensive magic or may not be true at all. > Tbh I dislike the "dies but will come back" argument because incap counts as a win in my book at least Well Karma is about the endless life cycle and also why I guess she was given the power to reincarnate. That itself already implies that she collects wisdom, experience and knowledge. As for her raw power I can't claim anything. Depending on how her reincarnation works she can either come back in business fast and use her experience to her advantage or it may be too slow to matter as a power anyway. But this reincarnation thing should be huge accentuation about her character. > But without any result ever, it'd make fights useless wouldn't it? Yes but I didn't mean that it should happen for all characters and all the time. This is more of a personal wish where I like Syndra enough to not see her lose and as a Karma main I don't wanna see her lose either. Hence why it's a compromise. You can still have them both fight other champions(after their fight) and have winners or losers or you can introduce non-champion threats that are more powerful than both Karma and Syndra individually, like the Watchers for example. Not as strong as Watchers ofc but something that truly force them to overcome their limits and take things seriously.
Falrein (EUW)
: Interesting take on the matter! It's true that Karma (Darha...?) may try and do things differently than what her past incarnations would have done! Really cool analysis thanks! Now that you say it, I can definitely see some sort of relationship going between Syndra and Karma, maybe not as a mentor (Syndra has a bad experience with those :')) but as a friend maybe? I'm not quite sure where Karma is lorewise rn, but I don't recall her having a peculiar goal right now? It would definitely be interesting to see that, since both of them need some relations and goal! Well... I'm torn on that one. On the one hand, Syndra _is_ supposed to be one this incredibly powerful mage, so I'd assume, in term of raw power at least, she would surpass Karma. On the other hand, you can say that she's still young and inexperienced while Karma is a millenia-old... Soul shenanigan? I've always been struggling with that, as I think at some point someone will have to stop Syndra ( _if_ she goes berserk at Ionia of course), and I wouldn't mind that (I would but shhh), so long as it respects her powers you know what I mean? Which is why, at least in my opinion, the best way to both defeat her while respecting how powerful she is would be to make it a grouped confrontation. Put Syndra against 2 or 3 people (actual people, not those goons from The Dreaming Pool :p), make it a good fight and defeat her, I think it's a good compromis? I don't know really D: But well, thanks for the very insightful answer really :D! Super helpful °///° PS: thanks! I'm glad to see people aren't bored out by those haha :p {{sticker:sg-ahri-2}}
I don't think Syndra vs Karma in a 1vs1 fight is impossible. I think that Karma is very underestimated(or maybe I am overestimating her?). 1. Karma is not just a human, she is an ancient spirit. If we talk about the vessel Darha then yes, Syndra will crush her. However because of that spirit(or whatever it is)she is able to enter her mantra state and connect to all her past lives. Now I don't know how the rules in runeterra work but Karma seems to be inspired by the animated show "Avatar: The Last Airbender" where connecting to the past lives allow them to combine their powers. If the same rules work for Karma then it's basically Karma combining the powers of thousands of people/souls. And not just people but elders who are considered to be very strong mages. It's will be basically a Syndra vs an army of thousands of people/souls. 2. Karma doesn't just combine her powers but she also receives guidance, wisdom and knowledge from them. I personally believe that knowledge is as important as raw power. Off-topic but I always viewed that young mages have a lot of magic and powerful body but lack the knowledge to cast that cool and fearsome spell so they wander trough the world seeking that knowledge until they are ready. But then they are too old and their body can't take the stress from the spell so what do they do? They find an apprentice to pass on that knowledge and make them cast that powerful spell. It's like progression of the generations. Now you wonder why I even write that? Well it's because I believe that even though Syndra has insane amount of raw power she lacks the knowledge to cast them deadly spells. She is not weak, it's just that Karma has the advantage who can tap to that knowledge and cast some tricky spells. 3. Karma herself is inexperienced and has a lot to learn. I mean, she hasn't used her powers offensively for thousand of years and then when she did for the first time, she blows a whole ship. It's just that Karma doesn't look flashy. It's the curse of her character. When you have someone lift a fortress everyone thinks he/she is powerful but if you have someone create a shield and/or heal it looks boring so every thinks that that character is weak. But do we know how difficult is to use protective barriers? I mean a barrier to be able to block a spell has to be as powerful as the offensive spell, no? 3. Even if Syndra killed Karma then Karma can just reincarnate into her next life and use the experience from the battle in her advantage especially if Syndra doesn't know that Karma can incarnate. Ofc in one of the stories it is mentioned that Syndra does some wierd stuff to the soul so we don't know how it will affect Karma. Will it damage her and weaken her so she won't be as powerful as before after her reincarnation? Or will it permanently destroy her? We don't know really. Ofc I won't be denying that I have a lot of bias towards my favourite champion. So seeing her lose will upset me. I don't think anyone likes to see their champion lose because it showcases them as weak and no one wants to be relatable to a weak character right? But I will not deny that Syndra is stronger than Karma in terms of raw power. I think that in a fight it will be 70/30 in favour for Syndra...or even 80/20. But I do think Karma can hold her ground. Maybe I am biased, maybe not. This is why I think the best compromise that can be made is to make them fight, showcase their powers but have no winners. It's doesn't """downgrade""" any of them. As for them being friends...I like the idea. Imagine what they can do together. Teach each other, train and refine their powers. Karma staying in the back and protecting while Syndra going on the front, creating chaos and fear in her enemies. They don't have to be enemies and they can respect each other. What is white without dark? Order without chaos? Same way...Karma uses more...passive approach while Syndra uses more aggressive approach. You may disagree with some of my points but I guess it's what makes these discussion so interesting! When you have some one who you agree with in everything there is just...nothing to discuss at all, hehe. I hope I didn't insult you somehow!
Falrein (EUW)
: What would Shen and Karma think of Syndra?
I can't speak about Shen but I don't think that Karma would view Syndra as just a threat and nothing more. If it was one of Karma's past incarnations/lives then no doubt she/he would think like the typical monk and try to...control her or maybe even worse. But she isn't and instead likes to think out of the box. Rather than staying a pacifist and do nothing she wondered what was the point of having powers which can harm and destroy. So she used them. The same way I imagine she would wonder why did the Spirit of Ionia imprison Syndra instead of just taking her live? I think they both can benefit from each other. Karma can teach Syndra to control her emotions(but not control _**her**_ and maybe unlock something that will make her even more powerful) meanwhile Syndra can let Karma try to understand how her unique powers work, why are they so different, give her knowledge about new kinds of magic...or maybe help Karma do some things that Karma herself can't. I also wouldn't mind a battle between each other. Having mountains and hadoukens flying left and right would be quality battle! {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}} But I don't want winners because if Syndra wins then it's means Karma failed to convince her to stop mindlessly destroying everything. And if Karma, lore wise, the wisest Ionian can't then who can? Maybe there is someone but chance are very low(imo). If however Karma wins the battle then it downgrades Syndra's character as that all powerful sovereign...just no thanks. PS: I am happy to see you keep up with the threads! :)
Falrein (EUW)
: Some thoughts on Yi, Wuju and Syndra
> That's usually the part where you tell me "Stop putting Syndra everywhere please you want to see her doing everything" well... That's kind of true, but hear me out! And why is this a bad thing? Since when did caring and being compassionate about a champion become a bad thing? Every person just cares about a champion and wants to find it's place in the role. You are no exception. I myself can't give you detailed opinion on your theory because I myself don't understand much of Syndra. It is why I like reading your threads and theories...and that is coming from someone who played Syndra like...3 times? In aram {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} But all I would do is encourage you to keep making them threads! I always enjoyed reading them.
SSmotzer (NA)
: Tristana got a buff, new splash art, and a new skin like 4 months before they announced her relaunch. Look at Mundo, he got a Winter Wonderland skin and they were primed to throw him into full relaunch development. And it's not like they would change her design much, just give her the Ezreal treatment. Keep it mostly the same, but flashier visuals, better animation, and voice lines for everything.
I know what you mean but then we have this: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/nqE4a8Ey-2019-login-screen?comment=0005000000000000 I guess we have the next year...
SSmotzer (NA)
: Karma is still on the radar for another rework. Let's just hope Riot put more effort into smaller scale reworks, like Ezreal's.
I am not sure about that especially after the buffs she got on the PBE. Usually when they buff a champion or release a new skin for them it means they are not getting a rework, of any kind, any time soon. I don't want to sound negative but they haven't done much good on Karma to warrant an exception either. But who knows, if they surprised us with her introduction in the recent cinematic and a new skin they might do it again.
Adrian70 (EUNE)
: Karma rework
Meanwhile at Riot HQ: Karma? Who's that? {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}}
: What a Karma Mini-VGU Would Look Like
She actually does have mantle of decorum it's just hard to see. One of the tip is above Karma's head and the other above Irelia's. Still we don't know what it's purpose is after the lore retcon. I am still happy they decided to include her in their promo, makes me hope that they might actually give her a proper mini-vgu. On the other hand for 5-6 years we didn't get anything (properly) done on her so it's almost impossible to believe that they will.
: Clothesline Karma Mini-Retrospective
Thank you for taking your time to show us the ideas and direction you tried to take, and still do. I was really hopeful for the clotheslining to return because it's one of the most unique mechanic that Karma had and the only one left that doesn't exist in some kind of a form in the game, possessed by other champs. > For the first iteration, we took the old clothesline and refined the spell to the most fun parts to play with. Karma’s old W hasted allies and slowed enemies on contact - however, the gameplay around maneuvering it into enemies was much richer than the gameplay around your allies running through it, so we focused on versions that only clothesline’d enemies to keep the spell clean. Additionally, the clothesline play is reasonably difficult to pull off, especially in an uncoordinated environment, so we attached a higher reward to successful plays - roots and stuns over slows. Here’s the first version in action. This version was fun, but had some issues. First, the level of attention that it required was high. If Karma put it on an ally, they would need to know what was happening and position themselves well to get the best effect, which can be difficult in a hectic teamfight. When thrown onto an enemy, they could easily misplay by running too close to an ally, accidentally stunning their friend. Karma, as a backline mage, didn’t have a ton of control over the movement of the tether unless she was willing to put herself at significant risk or had the luck of a super well coordinated ally. I can see why it would work better on tanks especially when your allies don't pay attention to the ability. Karma is probably too squishy to risk re-positioning closer to her enemies. But I personally never really looked at the clothesline mechanic as something easy to pull out. Considering how much team-fight potential it would have it would look unfair to be easy. I always thought that it's something that all players have to consider but never occupy their mind all the time. Yes, sometimes the enemies or allies would forget about it and it's totally fine. This is precisely why I think it should be hard...and risky. That is where the trade off is. But I do understand at the same time why it would be unsatisfying especially considering how much lack of control it has. Way too hard in lower elos meanwhile way too overbearing in higher and competitive play. > In the next iteration, we wanted to put a lot more control into the Karma player’s hands. First, we removed the ability to attach it to enemies, and replaced that with a free target cast. If she didn’t have an ally to attach to, she could separate her own spirit from her body (as a pet) and have it move towards a position, giving her some control around both ends of the clothesline. This however, would still put Karma in danger if she wanted full control over the play, so we made the mantra give her a fairly reliable amount of safety. On mantra cast, she would gain massive damage reduction and movespeed towards enemies for a few seconds, and she could recast the spell to “spirit walk” to the other end of her tether. It looked something like this. This version was quite cool, but still had some issues. Giving Karma safety on her Mantra was working as intended (folks made some really awesome Rakan-esque plays), but Karma players didn’t want to dive into the backline to execute well on the spell. When Karma wasn’t diving, the large ally coordination burden was still a pretty large issue in our tests. I find too much resemblance between this iteration and Pyke's E. I also agree that it isn't Karma's thing to dive the backline. It does look kinda interesting though not gonna lie. > The last large iteration we tested was different, trying to push the clothesline in an entirely new direction. Rather than having limited control over your spirit and full control over your own movement, we tried a version where on cast, Karma’s inputs would control her spirit’s movement while her own body was channeling (with the ability to cancel the channel if need be). In this way, she could remain on the backline while maneuvering the clothesline with less risk. A natural extension from this was the ability for her to “proxy-cast” from her spiritual projection, which we also prototyped. However, this mechanic ended up dominating the interaction (though was pretty fun to play), as you can see in this gif. Probably the most fun of all the iterations you have shown us. But you state some really fair reasons why it didn't work out. It makes her feel too much like a mixure of a backline and "pet control" mage. I also have a question for you NeuroCat. In your post you mention Karma a lot as a backline mage. For me a backline mage is an artillery mage or you can also interpret that, in Karma's case, as someone who stays behind and spams shields and bonds to her allies. I am pretty sure the community or at least majority of the people stated they were against it. I mean what else can you do except spam RQs or/and shields if you stay in the backline? It feels way too binary. Or am I interpreting it the wrong way? Could you clarify? Again thank you so much for all the attempts to bring back something unique to the champion.
: Am I the only one who thinks Karma W is bland and should be completely reworked?
This is something majority of the people who play Karma agree with. Along with bringing shield-bomb back, it's the most requested mechanic for a change. Riot NeuroCat said that she will have a look at Karma's kit and see what could be reworked and only then we will see if her W/RW was. So be patient my friend.
: League of Knockups (New Nunu)
I can't wait Morgana's mini-work. [Q] Dark Binding ---> [Q] Enraging Knock-up Now knocks-up a target for 3 sec instead of rooting. [R]Soul Shackles Morgana pulls her targets towards her for 1.5 sec. Tenacity increases the duration of the pull by twice it's value. Sorry I couldn't resist. {{sticker:sg-kiko}}
: What's wrong with Akali?
Nothing except her reworked W. I used it more for overdramatic effect. And even though I did have small issue with her reworked shroud it's gone for now after it was pointed that she is only untargetable but still revealed.
: Why Karma is Considered a VGU
At this point idk if I should just quit LoL. With what Akali turned out to be I don't think I trust them a successful mini VGU(a la Aatrox level). So I'll take the mini-rework for now. {{sticker:sg-kiko}}
: To your question of whether having a resistance buff, heal and a shield would be too good - not necessarily. If Karma opted to heal/resist buff and shield an ally, that would be 3/4 spells on CD and pretty much all her damage sacrificed for that protection. That defensive combo would also have no interaction with her passive, unless the tethered ally managed to AA a nearby enemy (rewarding interaction). It's very _Battlemage/Enchanter_, but whether or not it's too much only Riot could say. I'd like to think the trade offs could justify that kind of flexibility, since she is the "Enlightened One" after all.
Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge giving resistances, heal and shield to an ally isn't too good but giving all that and healing on karma is where it could prove to be troublesome. That is why I prefer the "donation" of either 1(personally preferable) or both of the heals.
: What Karma Needs
I don't think her shield and ally W should proc her passive. It will cause more problems because people will spam shield off cooldown and reduce her mantra with no skill involved. What if the proc happened from her W and E when the tethered target took damage and her shield blocked it? This way you will have to time them just like you need to accurately aim your Qs. And while speaking about her passive I feel it's just too broken. It needs to be reverted back to 2 sec. As for her RW heal share do you mean that Karma and her ally should be both healed twice? Wouldn't that along with W's resistance and her shield be too good? I've seen suggestions where Karma donated it to her ally. I don't fully agree on donating all of it but what if she could donate half of it? Otherwise I agree with the rest.
: I suggest a dragon that gives you bonus mr and armor under a tower structure, or in the river.
This should be the effect of mountain drake meanwhile infernal gets the effect of current mountain.
Fawksea (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Seer Lu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b2oblKpE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-01-27T22:38:03.285+0000) > > The balance team can't test everything...if the testing was done only by them we would see patches every few months rather than weeks. That's why we have PBE, that's why almost everyone got a chance to make an account. If Nunu is so problematic why people who played on the PBE didn't voice their concern and issues? Are people there to try new skins or what. > I know that we are not obligated to test these stuff on the PBE but if we didn't we would have to wait for months to get balance changes. Meanwhile in the duration of a week we see every single champion mentioned at least once with some kind of problems. > Ofc Rioters also have a fault in all this as they refuse to release PBE servers in other regions so the testing would greatly improve. people did, people voiced their opinion, and people even made videos to point out said thing was stupidly broken. riot doesn't listen or care and puts it in live. the fact yi was getting changes from someone who hasn't played league in ages and then thinks they're nice (hint: they werent, it was a big nerf) just doesn't give people hope
I am trying to say that both parties are at fault. Riot because they don't listen for a lot of things and refuse to make PBE servers in other regions. And people/players because they complain without taking action(do PBE testing themselves) and waste time for useless stuff(like skins). I don't know how are the PBE forums right now but back then I remember when testing had to be done about the masteries the only thing I could see was 50 threads and over about the same thing...why people can't earn blue essence and rp to buy skins. People/players/testers didn't even bothered to use the search option. If complaint was done about this however, players have the full right to blame Riot.
: Those Nunu changes just confirmed what everyone was saying about the balance team
The balance team can't test everything...if the testing was done only by them we would see patches every few months rather than weeks. That's why we have PBE, that's why almost everyone got a chance to make an account. If Nunu is so problematic why people who played on the PBE didn't voice their concern and issues? Are people there to try new skins or what. I know that we are not obligated to test these stuff on the PBE but if we didn't we would have to wait for months to get balance changes. Meanwhile in the duration of a week we see every single champion mentioned at least once with some kind of problems. Ofc Rioters also have a fault in all this as they refuse to release PBE servers in other regions so the testing would greatly improve.
: Two years ago I made a post about Karma not having a shield animation
From what I understood their primary focus will be the GU meanwhile leave the animations and particles for later if they have time. Nothing promised.
: Your most Favorite champ in the game
{{champion:127}} - one of the best champions quality wise. The only thing you can complain about is that her passive is kinda unoriginal. But once that get changed she would be perfect. :P {{champion:43}} - I love everything about her and if she didn't have such a bland kit with unfinished animations(pls 2018 come fast for her rework) I would probably spam her 24/7. :D {{champion:25}} - I just love to see people move left and right when I try to engage them. {{champion:26}} - unfortunately everyone can killean me coz I sux him but gosh I love him. ^^
: @Riot Games Lore Team - Yet Again More of Karma's Character Being Taken Away
I personally don't have issues(and I may even say I like it) with the avatar relevance as long as it's done right. Thing is, it isn't. Particularly this: > she rarely uses her magic for destruction, as it always comes at a considerable cost Just like you mentioned Winter it just leaves this uneasy feeling they will make her support, pacifist and goody-two-shoes. I really liked her old lore where everyone was about to give up and surrender to the Noxus invasion but Karma stood up and fought. This is why she is the enlightened one, the wise. One that would try first to resolve around peace and negotiation but wouldn't be afraid to fight as well. Riot said that they would be willing to change any champion's short bio as long as the community voices it's displease. No one however seems to do so for Karma. This is like the second topic regarding her bio. Either fans are ok with it or are waiting for the rework to come before they make any judgments. Edit: What I saw(and maybe many others) is that some people, who were displeased with the short bio of their champs, called the writers and asked them for better clarification and in-depth explanation about the short bios they did. Maybe if you or someone else made such a topic we could get a writer to join and tell us what they had in mind. However, without any intention to be rude to you Winter, it has to be done politely without snarky comments and insults. Once we get that information we can jump to conclusions...or wait the GU.
: Are you sure you never played her prior to this point in time? Playing her while she was free and getting an S score could have given you the box at the time.
You can't earn chests or key fragments for champions you don't own. So I guess it's a bug.
iSeaSalt (EUW)
: Sorry, I meant control mage. Her slows with Rylai's and W shove and her Ult team fight presence is legendary! :)
No worries! :) I think you made such an amazing choice to main her...she is absolutely lovely. :D
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