: Thanks for the invitation. I could go on for days about his design but I'll try to start with some reasoning around how we ended up where we did. Off the bat your instincts are correct Aphelios' design had to be simple to support the weapons he carries as they need to be fairly clear at all times. I tried to fuse the robes of a religious priest with the classic look of a secret agent (tactical turtleneck!) to create a clear aesthetic that drives his theme. Comparing him to Diana I actually tried to carefully replicate the same materials seen in her design, but arranged very differently. She is a Rakkor raised by the Solari who found the ancient armour of the aspect of the moon - a warrior-avatar of the forgotten Lunari sect. By contrast Aphelios is a monk of sorts, equal parts minimalist utilitarian (the black suit) and divine ritualist (the holy robes). He's not dressed to take a hit, he's dressed to perform a ceremony. He is also dressed in the way of the modern Lunari which have likely made changes particularly because they are few and living in hiding. When they walk amongst the Rakkor they must hide their true selves so when they are free to wear what they want rich forbidden colours are on display. Were Diana welcomed to the modern Lunari I could see them dressing her similarly to Alune for a religious event, celebrating the return of their scion. I'll also just point out that LoL champions represent the most extraordinary characters in the world of Runeterra. They are the ones that really stand out from a background of fantasy tropes. LoR is a great example of what the rest of the world look like but in LoL we are focused on the exceptions to the rules. The weapons were a much longer journey, being designed and redesigned over and over. Originally they were wholly moonsilver like Diana's blade. Diana's blade seems to be able to launch out beams of moonlight, so it's not at all a stretch to see that honed into a projectile weapon, but Aphelios is so different to the rest of the Lunari (and the Rakkor in general) we felt it needed a unique material. Something rare and potentially fragile, something only wielded by him, held and empowered by his sister's magic, something once enervated would be useless to allies and enemies alike. Shaping the moonstone was then a careful balance between the Lunari theme and the gameplay requirements. For each weapon I imagined how he would hold it and tried to connect them to weapons other marksman wield as a way to ensure that if you play LoL, playing as or against Aphelios you'd immediately have some idea of what was going to happen next (oh it's like Caitlyn's rifle, oh it's like Gnar's boomberang etc). Every day I'd have people come by and I'd ask them to guess what each weapon did until I was reliably getting correct answers. On top of that each one was tied to a celestial phenomenon - this served to further reinforce gameplay (Black hole has a CC effect) and give them a colour identity to support gameplay learning and recognition. I imagined the Lunari sort of like the Eldar in 40k, sculpting these smooth graceful shapes inspired by the phases of the moon, swooping crescents and curves of the phases, orbits of the moon, flow of the tides. The one additional element, a flourish added when they were weaponised, the carved ridges present on 4 of the 5 that mimic the shape of the flower 'moonbloom' from which Aphelios' tonic is drawn. The weapons are very sci-fi, his whole aesthetic is quite future-fantasy, but that is a side of Mt Targon; at the base you have the hardy and Hellenistic Rakkor, but the higher you go up the mountain the more alien things become until you reach the top and touch a wholly unnatural space. Each character has different amounts of these two elements but bringing them together is what sets Mt Targon apart from other fantasy locales.
But is his dance a Jojo reference yes or no?
DracoFox (NA)
: Aphelios's Dance
Torture dance. Change my mind.
: New Side Lane Alcove Objectives
> nothing like opening up a teleport portal between top and bot lane for a number of seconds... That actually sounds like a sick way of giving toplane more agency. Wouldn't be very welcome by the players, though.
Jesi Oni (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=mzicio,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ccGMIXP1,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-28T18:46:44.291+0000) > > They've just said his point and click fear is staying, and nothing else. It's very likely to still be a reworked ability, and perhaps it can be counterplayed in ways that you don't expect. Wait, ma boi. Nah... Everyone and their mother is repeating it like mantra that his ability will stay because mobility is cancer. Point and click CC is important to keep and I doubt they will nerf it in any way.
Do you sincerely believe it will be the same as the current fear? It's going to be a reworked ability. Part of it may indeed be a point and click fear, but I am very confident they will change it in one way or another. It may have counterplay we don't expect, think about it. How many times have they said the enemies will have to "find you before you find them"?
Sneakeh (EUNE)
: They said point and click ability not fear, this could mean his E... Am i wrong?
> Fiddlesticks’ new kit will be centered around the concept of fear, but it’ll include much more than a point-click status effect (which is staying on the kit). They are definitely talking about his fear here.
Sneakeh (EUNE)
: Fiddlestick's re-work and heavy point and click CC
They've just said his point and click fear is staying, and nothing else. It's very likely to still be a reworked ability, and perhaps it can be counterplayed in ways that you don't expect. Wait, ma boi.
Wipzzlol (NA)
: I got a chat restriction for this?
Yeah you kinda called him mentally r%%%%%ed, but he deserves some kind of punishment as much as you, if not more.
: Thinking about Surprise Party Fiddle
Yeah there's a guy on the Fiddlesticks discord who pretty much confirmed Surprise Party will be inspired from Pennywise. He's also given details on Praetorian and Bandito.
: There are champions where their kits offer somewhat interactive gameplay and potential to be outplayed (note, nothing here applies to fed champions, you can't outplay fed) {{champion:136}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:497}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:163}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:115}}
I have more than 150k on Azir and let me tell you, he has very little counterplay.
: please let fiddlesticks rework turn into a scarecrow when standing still
It's very possible this will be an actual mechanic, most likely his passive. **_"Experienced Fiddlesticks players will wreak mental havoc on their victims as they question what is real and what is merely a terrifying effigy."_** Perhaps there will be scarecrows around the map, and he can camouflage to look just like them.
: Wow, he could even eat his little lantern :O
Oh, so the lantern has not been scrapped!
: You all hit on everything we've been thinking in this thread <3 Another note on the metal - the twisting, creaking and scraping sounds and that sound of a wire under tension are things that I thought would make a really creepy sound palette! I don't want him to feel robotic and the animations will hopefully help with that, but I do want him to look like a demon that drew together the nastiest old farm materials it could find to make itself a body. If anyone has dance ideas I'd love to hear them. Thanks for the tip on Sons of Perdition! I love the Blackwater Godpel short; I remember watching it when working on High Noon Jhin.
How about something from The Nightmare before Christmas? Xin Zhao and Lee Sin's dance animations are adapted from a movie sequence, I think it could be done equally well. [I think this specific part](https://youtu.be/kGiYxCUAhks?t=143) would look amazing on the new Fiddle, since he's tall and long as heck.
Sergej561 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=mzicio,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=J1P1jqYO,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-20T18:13:42.808+0000) > > Bold of you to assume he'll have a personality! > > I think they're going for the "nameless evil" approach. He's going to be more of a natural phenomenon rather than a living being. Exactly this ^^ Hope they go with this approach. But to add to that, I think a cool thing they could do for his interactions, assuming they'll go for the multi-voice fiddle, is to have him say things that would trigger traumatic memories in champs. For example, with Lucian he could imitate Senna's voice as she blames Lucian for getting caught, while on the other hand he could imitated Lucian's voice when talking to Senna to tell her that he doesn't love what she has become anymore, same could be done for Ashe-Grena, Lissandra-Avarosa and Serylda, Ekko-his dead friends, Ahri-her lover etc etc. Think this could be a cool way to further the lore with Fiddle.
Yes! Pure evil, with no thought or reasoning behind it is what Fiddlesticks embodies. It would be natural for him to know what scares and hurts other characters instinctively.
: I'm excited to see Fiddlesticks' personality.
Bold of you to assume he'll have a personality! I think they're going for the "nameless evil" approach. He's going to be more of a natural phenomenon rather than a living being.
: Riot never stated in the Roadmap that the multilayered voices wasn't working or that they were scrapping it though. Where are you getting this information? They note that a lot of people were excited by the concept and that it was something they were going to do one way or another, they say nothing about being limited by technology. Furthermore, the technology for this is like, not even remotely close to new. All they'd do is just record multiple voices saying the same line, or even one voice and create several files with different filters applied, and then stack them together in a single file. It's been done ad nauseum for years now, so if Riot's not able to do it, then they have something seriously wrong with their sound team.
They stated in the update blog that having multiple voices for a single champion is distracting and confusing for both the player and their opponents. Of course it's not a matter of technical limitations, it's more about sound design and game design taken as a cohesive package.
cheex919 (NA)
: Fiddle stick's future skills guess?
I think we have at least 3 abilities confirmed right now: Passive will be fake scarecrows all over the map. You can stand still to look just like them and play mindgames with your enemies. Q will still be a point and click fear, perhaps not as boring but it's still targeted. R is the same.
: Imagine if Fiddle steals the victim's voice and uses it to terrify the next target. He could use the voice lines of champions he previously killed.
This is precisely what I hope they'll do. "Multi voice" at this point is either what OP said or stolen voicelines with a filter. I think a mix would be great!
GreenLore (EUW)
: I actually liked the bloated version that looked like he could explode into a storm of ~~scare~~crows anytime. Though I understand that this design wasn't used(and well technically its still possible for them to include it in a skill)
Yes I think his ultimate will be precisely that. Also, sorry for being annoying, but if he exploded into *scarecrows* that'd be pretty funny. ;P
: > [{quoted}](name=mzicio,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ilAO1nnd,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2019-10-17T11:49:23.184+0000) > > I absolutely love how they managed to mix every major element people liked about the concept arts! Huge scythe, birdcage torso, peeking eyes, goofy head... Riot really listened for this one. bear trap head for the win
Yeah that's a bit more subtle but it's still good. It's a fusion of the teeth from the "A" concept art and beartrap fiddle.
: When new Fiddlesticks comes out, can we keep some of his meme-y elements in his Surprise Party skin?
Pale Mask (EUW)
: What if Fiddlesticks is the "darkness" that Swain has foreseen?
Wouldn't be surprising, as his new palette is very reminescent of that of Beatrice (black and red). I think that they'll be somewhat connected, even tho I'd personally prefer Fiddlesticks to be mysterious and unexplained.
: The New Fiddlesticks Design
I absolutely love how they managed to mix every major element people liked about the concept arts! Huge scythe, birdcage torso, peeking eyes, goofy head... Riot really listened for this one.
: that sounds like a luchador (masked wrestler) type.
I think he'll be a large, sumo fighter-sized fire eater.
Jesi Oni (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=mzicio,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oeUcEPyX,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-10-16T17:47:15.476+0000) > > Temporary? Aren't dragon souls permanent for the remainder of the game? One guy told me that soul is a thing granted at max amout of dragon buffs. Just like max was 3 in this season but this will be a effect granted at 4th kill or something. People panic over anything without knowing numbers just as I said before 🤣 GL killing 3-4 Clouds
...what? I understood that the fourth dragon killed IN THE GAME gives the dragon soul, then elementals no longer spawn and the Elder replaces them.
: The cloud “soul” Besides giving ultimate cooldown for killing the dragon, the 4th dragon gives a “soul” which gives cooldown on your normal abilities for auto attacking Edit: fixing info
Temporary? Aren't dragon souls permanent for the remainder of the game?
: Dark Passage: Senna Champion Teaser
: What exactly is Jax's weakness?
You have a point and in fact I agree, but please don't list a champion's kit while trying to prove that they're broken/overtuned. It's a stupid and cheap way of making them seem worse than they actually are.
: Seeing as the new Champion was teased with the Black Mist, can we expect updates to Shadow Isles?
: > [{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mvXXpyQr,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-09-29T15:56:25.395+0000) > > When a champion's primary window of vulnerability only occurs when that champ's pilot screws up > > {{champion:84}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:555}} > > A better description is that those champions are fulfilling a "Unilateral power fantasy" > > AKA you have to play my game, and I'm the only one who gets to have fun playing it Sorry, you can't put Yasuo with those two. Yasuo is significantly more gankable than either of those two, and his only CC comes from a third Q proc which won't always be available. Meanwhile Akali gets a low CD spammable Q snare that snares in a cone, does damage, gives her her passive movement speed, an E leap, shroud, and gunblade snare on top, on top of 2 dashes from her ult. Pyke gets a guaranteed self peel through his dash and if he somehow wasted that, he gets a movement speed steroid coupled with stealth. 2 champions are not at all like the other. Wind Wall is significantly more limited than shroud or stealth/stuns. Yasuo can be a really aggravating champion to lane against and who should recharge his passive slower, but as a jungler I at least know he's an easy gank. Akali and Pyke pretty much scream "you can't gank this lane unless you come with a blitz/nautilus on top of the jg and CC me to death before I can use any skill".
You're the type of person that bitches at the jungler when you're losing lane, aren't you?
: What is the LEAST support reliant ADC?
: Please revert the buff to Evelynn.
Uuuuhhhhhhhh Evelynn has been very viable since her release and has been regarded as a solid jungler for a long time now. She has not "poked her head into the meta for a split second". Hell, she's consistently in the top 10 at all times.
: Sometimes, a champion's imbalance is their kit instead of their numbers.
Yeah, that's precisely the difference between overpowered and broken. When something is broken, you gotta do some serious work, not just tuning.
: No I'm just implying that there's a class fundamentally built around unreliability that functions reliably and so adding some unreliability to Malphite's ult in exchange for higher impact elsewhere wouldn't make him unviable if that makes sense.
Ah, I see. I had misunderstood. But I think that Moody has a point here, making it telegraphed would severely handicap Malphite. His ultimate does have a weakness, but it's negligible: the dash speed scales with your movement speed, if i remember correctly. Perhaps it's possible to toy around with some number changes to make counterpicks more valuable. Would still be a pretty pointless nerf, he's fine.
: I think there's ways to add counterplay without making the ability terrible. Unreliability usually comes paired with higher impact afterall. It's the entire basis of Juggernaut design.
Are you implying that Malphite is a juggernaut? Because he's not.
: I feel like skins are a good answer for the conflicting Volibear concepts
On one hand this is a good idea, on the other there are some considerations to make. If they go for the demonic concept, that will presumably be reflected in his abilities in some way: i'd expect a lot of self-destruction, tearing, deformation and oozing as Volibear changes and does whatever an abomination can do. That means the more "sane" skins will have to use a different model, rig and animations (that's a fuckton of work and honestly unrealistical), or else they'd look very weird. Or, worst case, they might choose the demonic path and do it in a boring way in order to make skins more easily. This would be a disaster, as neither Volibear mains nor SFTD fans would enjoy it. In my opinion he should be chill and collected by default and go berserk in combat or while ulting. You get the best of both worlds, and the rig can be recycled in a healthy way.
: I respect all the VGU Riot is making, but there is a champion I had in my mind long ago...
Skarner needs a revert to his old crystal venom rather than a rework IMO.
: dear riot. point click cc is NOT "unhealthy" or "bad design"
> also in my view champions are SUPPOSED to feel "unfun" to play against. thats what makes a champion good in my opinion. how about NO. Champions can be both good and fun to play against. It's a good idea to strive for that when designing new kits.
: Fearing an enemy stops them from getting Blitz hooked
His kit will most likely be very different except for his R. Sorry pal. And I kinda disagree with you saying Fiddlesticks has counterplay. His current iteration is AIDS to play against, even if not numerically overtuned.
: Does she have a skin or something comin out soon? All jokes aside i think they REALLY want to see more AP junglers. Heres food for thought, Make more AP junglers. Every single jungler you have released after Eve have been AD except {{champion:427}} and he isnt even meta. Jungle diversity is extremely poor atm. They even gone so far as to give shyvanna an AP build. Just make more AP junglers.
Fiddlesticks will hopefully become more viable as a jungler after his rework.
UnityOE (NA)
: If Kayn ults Fiddlesticks while Fiddlesticks is using his W he can hurt Kayn inside him.
This happens for all tether abilities. They also still hit Elise and Fizz in their E, for example.
: I'm on my lunch break again! Lets chat :D
Hey, Bazerka! Do you have any spoiler-free thing you can tell us about the upcoming Fiddlesticks rework? (Also thank you for being such an active Rioter here on the boards, it's something we needed. :D)
: Aurelion sol rework is disgustingly horrible.
> Aurelion sol rework is disgustingly horrible. > do you know how hard it is to line up his W The rework is not terrible. E losing its passive is an ok thing to complain about, it was important. New W is just harder to use. Learn it.
: Getting harder is very relative if the players he is talking about are the most recognized Panth players in the world. Also thinking and knowing is harder than hitting one skill shot imo
> [{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HJeO6q2f,comment-id=000200020001,timestamp=2019-08-27T13:35:30.832+0000) > > Getting harder is very relative if the players he is talking about are the most recognized Panth players in the world. Also thinking and knowing is harder than hitting one skill shot imo "Thinking and knowing" and "hitting a skillshot" are separated skills. Being good at the one that's "harder" doesn't make you automatically good at the other. And it's not just skillshots we're talking about. Also those were the most recognized players of old Pantheon. Not new. He plays differently, they still need time to learn it. Let's not pretend it was different for other champions. Crying for buffs now is crazy. They're already adding the execute on his tap Q, which completely removes the point of thrown Q. Please do not fucking complain until people have learned him properly, it's always the same story. It was like this with Aatrox too, and where are we now? He's in the dumpster because people who have learned him abused the buffs that were given because the majority sucked at him. What a surprise. It's a lost cause, and not one worth defending. Let Pantheon be for at least two full months before doing ANYTHING ever.
: > [{quoted}](name=mzicio,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HJeO6q2f,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-08-27T11:00:16.414+0000) > > THIS. > > He still fills the same niche, he just got harder. People crying about him without the will to adapt are ridicolous. You really think Challenger and Grandmaster players can't learn to land Q? As its been explained before, it goes much deeper than a single skillshot.
> [{quoted}](name=Zephyr1991,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HJeO6q2f,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2019-08-27T11:10:37.715+0000) > > You really think Challenger and Grandmaster players can't learn to land Q? As its been explained before, it goes much deeper than a single skillshot. I wasn't talking about the Q specifically. He got harder. When you're used to a champion like old Pantheon, who was 95% macro based, you're going to suck when transitioning over to the new one. His ultimate is the only ability that can be validly criticized, in my opinion, because it lost so much. Wait until people manage to combo properly and you'll see his winrate skyrocketing.
Rockman (NA)
: its because they have to actually skillshot a q
> [{quoted}](name=Rockman,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HJeO6q2f,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-27T03:28:04.703+0000) > > its because they have to actually skillshot a q THIS. He still fills the same niche, he just got harder. People crying about him without the will to adapt are ridicolous.
Damaskin0 (EUNE)
: Fiddlesticks Rework Concepts: Fiddle D, The Final One
Very nice ideas as always. They capture well the feel they're going for. That Voodoo ability has some potential! It could fit in a future Mundo rework
: > [{quoted}](name=mzicio,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=palrQr3P,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-26T17:26:18.557+0000) > > Kayle is not a support. Having teammates-oriented abilities does not make you a support. She might not seem like one but trust me try her on a not auto fill adc, she is actually good as one and also become pseudo hypercarry late game. kinda like lux, brand, xerath and zyra.
She's extremely item reliant to do anything. I find it unlikely that you can manage to get enough gold as a support.
: I can already see Shaco mains throwing a massive fit with the removal of his old passive and ult.
Not a main but hey, you called it
: Shaco Rework Concept
Hmmm... I think his E is a decent concept. It might work well with a longer jump time and multiple recasts but without the untargetability. His current ultimate definitely needs to stay, as well as the backstab.
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