: > [{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ia8kET8f,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-30T23:49:23.958+0000) > > As always, it depends a bit on the specific champion. Not every burst mages gets countered by assassins, for example, like Lissandra. > > But in general I would guess that artillery mages do well against them. Battle mages tend to have shorter ranges than other mage classes. An artillery mage specialises in long range combat, wittling the battle mage down over time. And most of the sustain from a battle mage (if they got any) mostly comes from combat with champions. But if they can't reach the artillery mage, then they can't use it. oh that makes sense. since (in general) battle mages can survive assassin burst by shields and whatnot while artillery mages dont give them that chance.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic but to elaborate on the above, artillery mages starve out their opponents. A vlad can't be very sustainable if the wave is pushed to the tower every time and the poking is constant.
Manxxom (NA)
: Better yet, Pool party xerath, and his ultimate is a barrage of water balloons.
> [{quoted}](name=Manxxom,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Ai4NzXwE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-11T03:20:47.822+0000) > > Better yet, Pool party xerath, and his ultimate is a barrage of water balloons. For sure at this point i'd like to just see some type of skin come out for him lol
Comentários de Rioters
: Yeah but movement speed has a counter like I said. You said it was ridiculous and I pointed at a counter lol xearth has a hard time hitting fast people that's just a champ thing but if you were playing a Malz you wouldnt complain if somone runes to fast because you just use r and they die or aniva with a slow a wall and a hard cc. You got countered
TBH unless i have hard figures and how it correlates to reaction time this argument is meaningless. I've stated that MS is a healthy counter to Skill shot champions but too much of it will oblique player skill. You're comparing apples to oranges at this point and attempting to conflate the two when they're not meant to be compared. Hard cc is meant to counter high MS while High MS is meant to counter skill shots. Have too much of one and its unhealthy for balance. It's like putting an insane amount of Hard cc in the game making assassins and high mobility champs useless due to the amount of abundance in the game. I'd also like to point out that most artillery mages and even some battle mages are affected by High MS, this isn't just an {{champion:101}} thing. {{champion:115}} sure has a hell of a time landing any of those bombs.
: thats why cc is in the game. doesnt matter if your running circles around your opponent if you get cced ur donzo, but xearth also does a shit ton of damage from long range with spamable abilties, if xearth skills were easy to hit he would be the most broken champ in the game for sure
CC is meaningless if MS is high enough, unless a hard cc is provided. My point in this thread was end game a draven still shouldn't be able to just walk out of skill shots placed upon them. The margin of error decreases significantly as MS increases. Being so it nullifies skill shot champions completely. This logic is applicable to more than just skill shot champions ie fed adc's should do damage vs armor negates their damage. I'd like to believe the 2 have an inverse relationship, a healthy balance needs to be provided is my point.
: if he's out of range of an xerath ability then he's out of range to hit you. you can either git gud and learn to land your skill shots, use champs that have point and click abilities or rely on a teammate that has one, there's rylai's to help abilities slow on hit or even {{item:3905}} to send ghosts after them,{{item:3030}} any of these 2 with or without glacial and they'll never move again.
And there it is the salty toxic comment of get good... if you had read what i stated above i said he was running out of my abilities being placed due to his high MS. I also stated that the few off times we did kill was due to slow MS items, but a good team can bend and protect an adc.
: Movement speed already has diminishing returns and a soft cap. Some champions rely solely on movement speed so you probably would want to nerf it because you're an immobile skillshot based champion but that's not fair to assassins or marksmen.
Yeah i get it, but champions aside from hec or the few that have speed apart of their abilities shouldn't have a need to exceed 500 ms. As stated above it sounds like that skill based champions are put at a severe disadvantage with their being no MS cap and Riot's willingness to apply it to more items.
TehNACHO (NA)
: It already has a soft cap. Furthermore, half the point of Xerath's design is that it's easy to dodge his abilities, especially since his rework.
Understandable but wouldn't you agree its a flaw? champions that have excessive MS would diminish his gameplay. Btw I don't believe he is a unique case alone in this and there are other skill shot based champions that fall in this category as well.
Comentários de Rioters
: Don't give them any ideas, pal.
> [{quoted}](name=Chef Bonezy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=oFxPLFh6,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-01T03:14:11.023+0000) > > Don't give them any ideas, pal. Might as well accelerate it :D we're heading down the path anyways.
Comentários de Rioters
: Is AP Malphite not just incredibly unhealthy by design?
Not anymore unhealthy than the abundant AD champions that can 100-0 champions.
Ventira (NA)
: Nah, slower metas make for unpopular ESports. Frankly, all they need to do is tone down the damage and the game'll be fine. Tank supports are super weak right now outside Leona and Nautilus.
Yeah, I realize that they're somewhat boring to watch, but I can't imagine Esports will maintain its viewer base with consistent high burst gameplay. Could be wrong though, not entirely sure if viewership has gone up or down.
Comentários de Rioters
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 20
HI Meddler, late to the party :p, but on the off chance you see this. I'd like to ask if there are any future plans to have league return to a slower state of gameplay? Specifically what we saw in seasons 3-5. While arguably they had their defects i'm curious if riot will ever return to that sorta gameplay and attempt to head in a new direction with it.
: Why Patch 9.19 needs to be REVERTED after Worlds!
This has been occurring for quite a while now. While I may get bashed for this, I'd say its fair game that since S6 riot exclusively has been balancing around worlds and ensuring that quick, bursty and exciting game play are the forefront. Immobile champions have slowly become obsolete and are moving to the back of optimal champions to play.
manolis201 (EUNE)
: Season 3 i still remember the heaven this game was back then i remember everyone having mood for league always back then even if its you playing whatever your head wanted those days they need to return in the future :( Upvote if you agree with me.
> [{quoted}](name=manolis201,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xQ1xyuQn,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-23T00:52:09.216+0000) > > Season 3 i still remember the heaven this game was back then i remember everyone having mood for league always back then even if its you playing whatever your head wanted those days they need to return in the future :( > > Upvote if you agree with me. amen man league may not have been perfect in those seasons but it wasn't a shit show dmg meta that made it impossible to counter.
: I just started this season and as much as I do agree with the absolute deletions that happen especially when the enemy gets just a little ahead sometimes... The games are really long as it is.
> [{quoted}](name=ANearMiss,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xQ1xyuQn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-21T05:02:03.040+0000) > > I just started this season and as much as I do agree with the absolute deletions that happen especially when the enemy gets just a little ahead sometimes... The games are really long as it is. The only time i had ever felt the games were long was when it got into the 60 minute + games, 30-45 i feel is the ideal game length and should be the area riot should be aiming for.
Comentários de Rioters
: Let's Talk Gameplay: Laning Phase
Frankly its a mixture of the below: * Over-performing Runes * Over-performing Champions * Too Much Damage/No Defenses * "Late Game" Powerful too early While i'm sure i'll have someone disagreeing with me there is definitely a double standard that exists and creates unique situations that further emphasize on the above positions. I don't really care what anyone says, but riot taking a hard stance on mages years ago about lanining stability while allowing assassins with energy to have unlimited lane stability potential is one of those double standards. You can't reasonably argue that mages casting unlimited spells is unfair when its their only source of damage. If anything mana potions should of had their cost raised to prevent certain mages from abusing them.
Ifneth (NA)
: Strictly speaking, Ahri, Malzahar, Rumble, and Vladimir are all top 10 on op.gg. They are top 10 because Ahri is like an assassin while the other three are good at handling them, but Taliyah is right behind them at rank #13 overall. It’s an assassin meta but not one that prohibits mage play.
Tbh i think a more appropriste label would be its been a mobility meta for quite some time. Immobile champions have a very difficult time competing, not to say there are not some that do well.
Comentários de Rioters
: Riot is running out of options to keep league of legends alive. Honestly the game is past its prime, so they keep adding new content and run the game into the ground. League of Lengends being a Moba that was created origionally from Dota, means at some point the game is actually finished. This isn't Minecraft a game of inf possiblitys, its a competitve team game. The rules and players of it at some point are simply finished. All Riot is doing is unbalancing the whole game to rebalance it every patch and make it seem new to some players. Thoughs that have been around a couple years though Just get frustrated.
The difference being is games that have stuck to their characteristics that made it popular always retain a loyal playerbase. Runescape is a prime example. League had its high points during s3-5 and pot s6 although id argue after s5 it began to decline.
: Mage mains are shitting their pants.
: What if he just charges q to shove though?
That is my point, if he charges Q and slaps you with it stand behind minions he will always push the lane regardless if he wants to or not. Pre 6 xerath can't bully you out of lane unless you get gob smacked 100% of the time by his spells and if that's the case i'd recommend working on juking. if you're able to avoid 20-30% you should be able to beat him after 6 and have plenty of opportunities for your jungle to gank due to him pushing the lane.
: {{champion:8}} - never have I once beat him 1v1 unless my opponent was a bonobo and forgot to w or i got a gank. To this day I still haven't. {{champion:101}} - still don't know how to lane against someone who outrages and pokes you harder. Even bursts lategame w/ stun. {{champion:81}} - 2 blinks and decent damage with q. Then he scales faster then you do. {{champion:30}} - hes fine imo, but I just dislike his unmatched skillfull ganking prowess {{champion:555}} - literally even out sustains evelynn as a jungler due to his freebie trading passive. 100 health regen not including pots btw. So while you win the initial trade, he just walks away And you lost it. Other then there im pretty ok with other champs, but that's because these are annoying as hell.
Xerath main here best way to screw one over is freeze lane near your tower and let jungle take a few smacks at him. He can't respectively be agressive on you unless he wants to push the lane. Basically your goal if dealing with an agressive xerath dance around the minions so he pushes the lane. If its a passive xerath freeze lane near your tower.
Comentários de Rioters
Bazerka (NA)
: Thank you everyone
Negative feedback while tedious is just as a necessity as positive, may not have had the best outlook lately on this game but i definitely appreciate the engagement :p
: > [{quoted}](name=Alüe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s8VoTFAy,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-20T16:19:22.157+0000) > > Explain the logic that more damage in the game equates to less of a snowball, with more gold introduced since pre season 5 champions are able to achieve their full build earlier in the game. Look, I'm done. I posted my logic in the post that you replied to previously and now this is twice that it sounds like you didn't read through it. I'm not going to continue an argument that just gets ignored anyway.
Okay, i have read your comments above and that logic isn't sound in anyway. No data supports that, honestly the only thing you've introduced is the game length on the first day of each patch which is at best questionable data when we are discussing the season.
: > [{quoted}](name=Alüe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s8VoTFAy,comment-id=000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-20T13:32:36.495+0000) > > Not at all you haven't shown any stats to suggest damage has been reduced pre season 5. Likewise i don't have any hard statistics either, but i can point to mechanics that have increased damage over the seasons. If you would read the comment you're replying to it would be great. I didn't claim that damage has been reduced. I said that more damage in the game makes the game less of a snowball. >As mentioned above these have created and rushed the game status time. A fellow poster above had even mentioned that longer game times were reduced compared to s5. That poster pointed out that it's less likely for 35+ min games in this season, as I've pointed out there it's less likely to have 25 - min games in this season. I've already said my bit about overly long games. Stall mechanics were removed for a reason.
Stall mechanics is not the underlying reason for reduction in game time. You're correlating a cause and claiming it is the sole variable that resulted in a reduction of shorter game times. Explain the logic that more damage in the game equates to less of a snowball, with more gold introduced since pre season 5 champions are able to achieve their full build earlier in the game. it is not uncommon to see individuals with 6-10 kills by 10-15 minutes in game. Pre s5 that would be very uncommon, due to there being less gold to soak. current game -> bounty bonuses, tower bonuses, dragon Back in season 5 none of those above were factors apparent in the game. maybe later in S5 dragon was introduced don't recall the specific moment. You want to tell me that the increased gold provided and damage increase provided by dragon or over saturation of true dmg, cdr, etc of other stats isn't going to result in a snowball meta?
: > [{quoted}](name=Alüe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s8VoTFAy,comment-id=0000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-20T05:01:53.264+0000) > > How can you argue its not more snowbally? More mechanics have been introduced into the game to increase damage, infernal drake? Increased gold? More true damage? Where is this nerf bat coming in pre season 5 that made future seasons operate with the same amount of dmg seasons 2-5 had?!?!? I can argue it's not more snowbally because the team that's losing has more opportunities to bring themselves back into the fight rather than be suffocated out. More damage in the game does not make the game more snowbally, it actually makes it less since the more damage there is the less necessary to kill someone even if they are ahead. Positioning and CD's becomes more important the more damage there is. The longer a fight goes on the more it becomes a stat-check, which a team with the gold lead is going to have a bigger advantage on.
Not at all you haven't shown any stats to suggest damage has been reduced pre season 5. Likewise i don't have any hard statistics either, but i can point to mechanics that have increased damage over the seasons. As mentioned above these have created and rushed the game status time. A fellow poster above had even mentioned that longer game times were reduced compared to s5.
: > [{quoted}](name=Alüe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s8VoTFAy,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-04-20T04:52:27.095+0000) > > I dont think data collected on the first day of each patch can be applicable in determining the average game length for a season. It's far better than one video and a bunch of perceptions. >There have been multiple snowball mechanics added to the game to increase the power creep and gold income. This was done in an effort to reduce game time. Champions in general havent been severly nerfed since pre season 5. Gold income was increased drastically to speed up the gameplay: ie, gold bounties, tower armor plate bounties, dragon, increased assist bonus kill g. Lets us not forget the bonuses dragon provided for dmg or the rune rework that did make a lot of champions broken and are still broken with damage, vast amounts of true dmg presented, saturation of lethality, cdr and pen. The game is definitely more snowbally/has more damage than it did in the past. How can it be more snowbally when you've already pointed out there are come-back mechanics to allow the losing team to get back into the fight?
How can you argue its not more snowbally? More mechanics have been introduced into the game to increase damage, infernal drake? Increased gold? More true damage? Where is this nerf bat coming in pre season 5 that made future seasons operate with the same amount of dmg seasons 2-5 had?!?!?
: > [{quoted}](name=Alüe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s8VoTFAy,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-20T04:44:05.101+0000) > > You mean comeback mechanics.....? Nothing worse than presenting an opportunity for a team to make a comeback. No, I mean stall mechanics. In those earlier seasons successfully killing only a few players while stalling didn't lead to a comeback. It often led to an extension of the stall. It was still too risky to push any distance outside the base because you didn't gain enough money to do anything. While on the back-foot you had to kill the entire team if you actually wanted to come back (while keeping enough of your players alive), and it only worked if your team managed to rush the win while they were all dead. Otherwise it's right back to playing extremely defensive in the same situation as before.
Perhaps at lower elos i recall at plat level it made the game more intensive as team work was required to keep your minimal lead. that meant following through with your basic skills while strategizing against the team. Wasnt uncommon to bait baron or ward up an entire jungle while split pushing. Stall mechanics were a strategy for teams that had late game ap mids viegar, karthus, etc.
: > [{quoted}](name=Alüe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s8VoTFAy,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-19T16:56:05.027+0000) > > Average game lengths alone disproves your statement that damage was just as prevalent as it is now. The average game was 45-60 minutes anyone who has played season 2-5 would remember that it wasnt until after the marksman rework that riot decided to cut the game time down by making the game more snowbally. This was achieved by introducing more damage into the game. Dragon with team buffs were introduced, ad items were reworked to be cheaper. Short statement more damage was introduced into the game to make the game time shorter. The average game does not last 40 minutes and is typically decided at 10-15 and over at 20-25. > > https://youtu.be/f7FcISvbQjs A youtube video of one person is not proof. It's one person and one game. Here are actual stats; https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics If you notice, season 5 actually had more games decided before the 30 min mark than the most recent patch.
I dont think data collected on the first day of each patch can be applicable in determining the average game length for a season. We are given varying points of data, however season 5 is fairly scarce. There have been multiple snowball mechanics added to the game to increase the power creep and gold income. This was done in an effort to reduce game time. Champions in general havent been severly nerfed since pre season 5. Gold income was increased drastically to speed up the gameplay: ie, gold bounties, tower armor plate bounties, dragon, increased assist bonus kill g. Lets us not forget the bonuses dragon provided for dmg or the rune rework that did make a lot of champions broken and are still broken with damage, vast amounts of true dmg presented, saturation of lethality, cdr and pen. The game is definitely more snowbally/has more damage than it did in the past.
: > [{quoted}](name=HeeroTX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s8VoTFAy,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-19T22:40:38.340+0000) > > **IF** you like to play a DEFENSIVE game or tend to play a SLOWER playstyle, then the game USED TO allow you to do that, and does not anymore. Riot have said they intentionally killed "stall" mechanics and the numbers bear that out. I **hated** stall mechanics. Nothing was more annoying than having an advantage but because their entire team had amazing wave clear it was next to impossible to approach towers without risking it all. It became where both teams were sitting on their thumbs waiting for the other team to screw up by taking a risk. Stuff like that was phased out for a reason. Games should never be stuck in a stalemate where both sides are waiting for the other to screw up. 30 min is a perfect medium to have for average game length.
You mean comeback mechanics.....? Nothing worse than presenting an opportunity for a team to make a comeback.
: > [{quoted}](name=Alüe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s8VoTFAy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-19T13:38:04.463+0000) > > Uhh damage has not always been high there have been times when a champion was broken and was able to execute someone quickly (rengar on his release killed someone in under .5 seconds) there is more true dmg, cdr, and manaless champions running around than there were in s2-5. Tbh i prefer those seasons at least games lasted until 40-55 minutes and teams were presented with opportunites to make a comeback. Now we have power surges when broken champions get 2-3 kills. Yasuo, zed, vayne, are just a few to name. The biggest difference is the high dmg we are seeing now around 8-10 mins didnt occur until 35-45 mins back in the early seasons. What opportunities did you have in season 5 that allowed for comebacks that you don't have in the current season? What source do you have that games lasted longer back then?
Average game lengths alone disproves your statement that damage was just as prevalent as it is now. The average game was 45-60 minutes anyone who has played season 2-5 would remember that it wasnt until after the marksman rework that riot decided to cut the game time down by making the game more snowbally. This was achieved by introducing more damage into the game. Dragon with team buffs were introduced, ad items were reworked to be cheaper. Short statement more damage was introduced into the game to make the game time shorter. The average game does not last 40 minutes and is typically decided at 10-15 and over at 20-25. https://youtu.be/f7FcISvbQjs
Warpes (NA)
: AP Shyvana is the most disgustingly broken thing I've ever seen in the history of this game.
Good thing you didnt live thru the era of AP Yi aka the most broken build.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: I'm having fun playing league right now
Uhh damage has not always been high there have been times when a champion was broken and was able to execute someone quickly (rengar on his release killed someone in under .5 seconds) there is more true dmg, cdr, and manaless champions running around than there were in s2-5. Tbh i prefer those seasons at least games lasted until 40-55 minutes and teams were presented with opportunites to make a comeback. Now we have power surges when broken champions get 2-3 kills. Yasuo, zed, vayne, are just a few to name. The biggest difference is the high dmg we are seeing now around 8-10 mins didnt occur until 35-45 mins back in the early seasons.
: also ad midlaners are just harder to climb with cus it makes the team full ad most of the time or make the top laner play someone they arent as used to
Maybe in prior seasons but pre season 5 being an ad midlaner was favorable especially with the gutting/pruning of viable ap mages midlane. Early mana issues (to cast abilities), magic pen (cut mr) and ap (dmg) makes pretty much any ad midlaner superior to their counter parts. A skilled yasuo or zed shouldn't be losing to a mage unless that mage has low cdr with hard cc like ryze.
Azeranth (NA)
: When will Conqueror Officially Be A Failure?
This is pretty apparent ib mid lane also, anything immobile against assasins gets anal rekt. I miss the days assassins had to work for their first few kills then became snowbally. IE JUNGLE ACTUALLY ASSISTED THEM. Instead its okay for assassins to be opressive asf and dive in and out of towers with ease. My main xerath honestly isnt that advantaged against a zed or yasuo when they can close the distance very quickly. Back then this game used to be more team orientated now its a shit fest.
: They offer some form of insight about what people dislike and like. They can also offer new ways to look at things. It's never going to be a "well boards things It's bad so let's scrap/change this" sort of thing that so many people expect it to be. They more than likely look at every place where this sort of talk takes place and based on everything they then make changes if necessary.
Its more knowing the degree boards opinions has on the developers balancing changes. Some of these threads go very in depth explaining why they something needs to be tuned but i rarely see any engagement if they agree or disagree on certain aspects.
: Brand damage kind of ridiculous isn't it?
Yep but that would also completely gut him solo lane easiest solution would be to increase mana costs early game and lvl it out mid game. Problem is though games end around 15-25
Poske (EUNE)
: Would be interesting to see Ziggs Q hitrate on champions in high elo 4% or something But overall I think its a horrid idea. It gives people a notion that casting abilities only if they hit matter
Tbh sounds like a good idea would show the disparity vs certain champions could lead to assisting balancing changes.
Comentários de Rioters
: Meet battlemages (AKA control mages), the champions left to rot if Riot doesn't want them in LCS
most immobile heroes atm are in a bad spot game is to bursty making you an easy target.
: So long and thanks for all the bullshit, Riot.
Try outward or sekiro if you're looking for another game :p
Comentários de Rioters
: Subclasses exist, they have said that champions are able to dip into the strengths and weaknesses of other subclasses (not their exact words but they said something very similar). Like ADCs getting hard CC in their kits or having some of them be self reliant. It creates more interesting characters that way instead of pidgeonholding champions into having very strict rules. It's why in the past you would only pick the best performing tank if he was available over the rest. Their kits are so similar and interchangeable that you just pick whoever is strongest at the moment. ADCs also felt insanely similar from each other for quite a while.
I recall something of that nature being stated, however i also recall that they were hoping to limit this to only 2 subclasses and to reduce their effectiveness in that subclass. For example ziggs was an artiller mage/siege, 2 years ago his siege and artillery effectiveness wasn't the best however he filled both subclasses. Today i feel that certain champions fill multiple subclasses, artillery mage, bruiser, etc.
: Is this a serious response? No its not the role of a game to change behavior. What world did you grow up in? Peoples behavoir is rooted in their experiences in life---their taumas, their upbringing, who they happened to run into in life and became friends with...and other random things. Fucking preposterous to even suggest that a game could change a persons behavoir. How about this, make the game suck less ass and people wont be as toxic. The game is completely out of control right now. Damage is way to high. I see zed every match among others. Everyone explodes everyone instantly, there is not counterplay You guys will go out of business in about 5 years. Fading into obscurity as better games are made by better companies that don't pander to LCS and the new ADHD generation
i think the bigger question to ask, is why does riot believe games affect a persons behavior? what data supports that a persons behavior are affected by the gameplay presented? and if data is supporting that games change the behavior of a player why is riot interested in controlling what their player base should feel or think?
Comentários de Rioters
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Nível 52 (NA)
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