: Since that isn't how xp works. Also have you even played jg? Since it sounds like you have no clue wtf you're talking about since if camps respawn faster that means you have more xp even with the nerfs to xp.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-24T17:59:46.166+0000) > > Since that isn't how xp works. Also have you even played jg? Since it sounds like you have no clue wtf you're talking about since if camps respawn faster that means you have more xp even with the nerfs to xp. You're unranked iron 3 with 29% win rate and zero jg games? Gps are you remotely qualified to comment here? Lol. I can play wrong champions in wrong roles with wrong equipment and wrong runes in roles I don't main and get above 40%..
: IM TIRED AND IDK WHO TO PLAY AT THIS POINT (PLEASE HELP)
Maybe Warwick. I have about 2mil mastery on WW. While he isn't incredibly hard carry in late game, you can pretty much counter build to almost any champ. Just be patient in early game, you can't fall behind in farm in the lane with WW.
: Question i've always got : Rework VS New champions
Been playing Kindred for last few months. Would be nice if Wolf did what I wanted, or actually attacked scuttle reliably.
: It just impressive how the useless 45% winrate get to be gutted while the 40% pickrate jungler not
While I would not say toxic, Lee Sin is a little broken, especially early game. His duel is very good, and his clear just leaves him with too much health for his dueling potential.
GFREEMEN (NA)
: I had a Muted guy that was trying to get me to first pick his champ and I never herd him because he was Muted. He then (I can guess why I blocked/Muted him before) trolled the game pissed I didnt first pick his champ.
> [{quoted}](name=GFREEMEN,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XvkPgjm5,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2020-01-23T21:13:12.239+0000) > > I had a Muted guy that was trying to get me to first pick his champ and I never herd him because he was Muted. > > He then (I can guess why I blocked/Muted him before) trolled the game pissed I didnt first pick his champ. Classic League! Lol.
: > [{quoted}](name=Garen is adopted,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jTmMTtLT,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2020-01-24T10:23:14.663+0000) > > its because of the spyware or whatever, the client is literally monitorizing all programs that are running on your pc as well as your browser, not sure if browser history too but anything currently running is on their data, so you can just imagine that it will consume a lot more memory than a normal client. > edit: just in case you are gonna say they don't, read the tos as well as maybe just do a little search on google, even vandiril proved it is really happening, but with less drama. > edit2: no one wasked for but I think is important to mention they imply or said explicity they will collect all that data "to improve their services", so basically you allow them to take all your data, or anyway all data avaible when your client is also open probably. > > but that doesn't explain why they can't fix some stupid bugs tho. All it's doing is checking for the words "cheat engine" in the list of running processes when the game launches. Pretty much everything you said is exaggeration and fearmongering.
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jTmMTtLT,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2020-01-24T13:07:07.624+0000) > > All it's doing is checking for the words "cheat engine" in the list of running processes when the game launches. Pretty much everything you said is exaggeration and fearmongering. Yeah it's probably just a coincidence that any game bought out by Ten Cent(read China) suddenly runs like dogshit. I ran LoL and PoE just fine on very old laptops years back. Now with computer rated "Nuclear Submarine" ( 99th percentile compared with other gaming rigs) PoE quickly turns to shit and LoL client is as bad as described by others here. It's not a coincidence. I just think it's funny though, China trying to be clever but alienating people around the world right now with this trash. They apparently did not pay attention to gamergate ramifications At All.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ambitious Minnow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Wn8G5dE,comment-id=000c00000001,timestamp=2020-01-05T18:23:27.499+0000) > > It's weak af, that's THE reason it's so snowbally. As everyone has been posting: one mistake, jg is dead, can't even farm really. That's because the jg is too weak to cover basic responsibilities without being ridiculously fed. Weak jg gives you coin flip on whether or not you try any jg at all now. It's underleveled af, it is not weak af. Difference being the better jg has a huge impact on games still with how big neutral objectives and getting off successful ganks are now. If jg was weak af you would see both jgs feeding every game, but you don't. It's always one jg 12/3 and the other 0/15. Arguably jg is still the strongest as a role next to adc in terms of actually carrying games, the problem is by removing catchup xp there is now a gogantic dofference between people who play jg and an autofill, so if your team got the autofilled jg gg, go next
> [{quoted}](name=Minimac2000,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Wn8G5dE,comment-id=000c000000010000,timestamp=2020-01-05T19:26:45.092+0000) > > It's underleveled af, it is not weak af. Difference being the better jg has a huge impact on games still with how big neutral objectives and getting off successful ganks are now. If jg was weak af you would see both jgs feeding every game, but you don't. It's always one jg 12/3 and the other 0/15. Arguably jg is still the strongest as a role next to adc in terms of actually carrying games, the problem is by removing catchup xp there is now a gogantic dofference between people who play jg and an autofill, so if your team got the autofilled jg gg, go next You are so far off its hilarious. Instead of playing normals and ARAM, try posing ranked jg. You have no clue what catchup xp really means. Jungle IS weak af. It's so weak, one jg is dead at three to four minutes aha the other one "looks healthy" because they are also farming the enemy half of jg on top of their own. Being the losing jg is this scenario is 15 - 30 minutes running around as a glorified canon minion. Nobody likes it, the rule won't survive it.
: > [{quoted}](name=BONUS DMG 2NOOBS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Wn8G5dE,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2020-01-04T19:10:08.875+0000) > > 5 weeks ago, people were downvoting posts with a 100 replies that said the jungle was in a bad place and should be fixed. Everyone hated the gank meta last season, so this seemed like an improvement, to which I have to agree it is. HOWEVER, I predicted in every post about the jungle, that it would become the most autofilled role and make people the most unhappy about the state of the jungle that it has ever been in. And here we are 5 weeks later. > > The solution is simple, boost the XP of the 2nd/3rd/4th jungle spawn. No catchup XP. Remove solo lane XP boost. Keep the lane sharing XP nerf (that will modestly disincentivize ganking and shoving wave, as will the lack of catchup XP). This way junglers are actually rewarded for clearing camps efficiently and not spam ganking. Probably has to do with the way it was worded. The thing is jg isn't in a weak spot rn. It's just way too snowbally where 1 jg decides the game and the other is always a ward. Every game. And that makes people quit
> [{quoted}](name=Minimac2000,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Wn8G5dE,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2020-01-04T19:46:57.218+0000) > > Probably has to do with the way it was worded. The thing is jg isn't in a weak spot rn. It's just way too snowbally where 1 jg decides the game and the other is always a ward. Every game. And that makes people quit It's weak af, that's THE reason it's so snowbally. As everyone has been posting: one mistake, jg is dead, can't even farm really. That's because the jg is too weak to cover basic responsibilities without being ridiculously fed. Weak jg gives you coin flip on whether or not you try any jg at all now.
Comentários de Rioters
: Red side has a full 2% higher winrate than Blue side. What's up with that?
I say again, it's the bot lane leash. OP even says before it was blue side earlier, *when you couldn't get level 3 off of blue buff side jg.* Now that you can start blue, it is jg preference to start blue, and red side gives better leash on blue buff.
: Red side has a full 2% higher winrate than Blue side. What's up with that?
Red side starts with ideal bot leash at blue because bot lane duo leash. I guarantee you the blue side start statistically has worse jg results, and jg is so broken the extra seconds starting with a top leash(which is sometimes no leash at all) van be game ending at start.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=mVFJnUjE,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2019-12-27T22:14:28.473+0000) > > Because this is a team game. You aren't going to have a 100% winrate; sometimes your teammates will be bad, or AFK, or sometimes the other team will also have people smurfing like you. > > On average, yes. Any system like this is based on averages. Riot cannot control your teammates so that their power never goes out, or an emergency happens, or they get tilted and run it down. Riot cannot control that sometimes the opponent will be smurfs. **On average, the ranked system is designed to get a player to the MMR where they have a 50% winrate**. That does not mean you WILL have a 50% chance every game. It means on average, a game will have a 50% chance to go either way. > > They complain about high elo matchmaking, not about a Diamond smurf bitching because they don't understand how climbing works. You aren't even hardstuck and your thread is, frankly, wrong. 'Hardstuck' requires being at that MMR where you have a 50% winrate and cannot climb because you are where you belong. 'Hardstuck' is not some pissy smurf complaining that their team was bad during a placement game while they are running with a 70%+ winrate anyway. Preach. Glad someone else said all this so i didn't have to. He is just one tenth of the players in that game and not a guaranteed win condition. Not to mention as you said, he isn't hardstuck AND his mmr isn't even in low elo anymore (probably hasn't been in a while) so his whole point is invalid. Funnily enough, the matchmaking system most likely recognizes him as a smurf too and is intentionally making it harder for him to win to make the games more fair for the opponents. That's another aspect he ignored and it doesn't affect average players with normal win rates and MMR's.
> [{quoted}](name=GonahtanuGepardi,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=mVFJnUjE,comment-id=0008000000000002,timestamp=2019-12-28T19:24:11.079+0000) > > Preach. Glad someone else said all this so i didn't have to. He is just one tenth of the players in that game and not a guaranteed win condition. Not to mention as you said, he isn't hardstuck AND his mmr isn't even in low elo anymore (probably hasn't been in a while) so his whole point is invalid.* Funnily enough, the matchmaking system most likely recognizes him as a smurf too and is intentionally making it harder for him to win to make the games more fair for the opponents.* That's another aspect he ignored and it doesn't affect average players with normal win rates and MMR's. This right here is real, and its the problem. The system recognizes when you're doing well, then uses you as a 'balancing chip' of sorts in upcoming games. What you describes sounds fair, but its not. The best solution in this situation is for this supposed better player to keep getting teammates appropriate to the rank/mmr they are in, and if they can keep climbing with the average players, *for them to keep winning and get the hell out of the lower elo asap.* This right here is what leads to these games feeling like coin-flips. Could the system be better designed to account for account age? Absolutely, accounts with 500 - 1000+ games should probably be matched with similar accounts so they can get reliable matchmaking, or at least be matched like that more often. Again though, what you're describing sounds fair but breaks the whole system to appear that way. If the system is matching people with similar ranks, but those people actually have wildly different amounts of skill, the system is not doing its job well, end of story.
Laura ß (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ash Lockheart,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=mVFJnUjE,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-12-28T04:39:44.503+0000) > > No player should have to play only a few champions in order to win, and get ranked up. Players should be able to play any champion, and still have success with there matches. If the game is really skill based then any champion should be able to climb. > > If a player can only climb using champion X,Y, and Z, then there is something very very wrong with the game its self. Ask any challenger elo player if they are willing to play an off meta champion and see what happens, there is a point where you have to be a meta whore in order to climb, or master a champion and find a cheese tactic to get challenger but even those special players can maintain their challenger rank for only a while, some champions have been keeping their relevance for years in the highest elos like lee sin while other champions you are forced to drop if you want to continue the climb
> [{quoted}](name=Laura ß,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=mVFJnUjE,comment-id=000900000001,timestamp=2019-12-28T05:45:51.315+0000) > > Ask any challenger elo player if they are willing to play an off meta champion and see what happens, there is a point where you have to be a meta whore in order to climb, or master a champion and find a cheese tactic to get challenger but even those special players can maintain their challenger rank for only a while, some champions have been keeping their relevance for years in the highest elos like lee sin while other champions you are forced to drop if you want to continue the climb I mained WW for years, so I just had no understanding of how broken Lee Sin is for the average player. Lee is broken af lol. Q CD is low enough where it's always going to be ready for a jungle fight or gank and provides insane gap closer reliably (with vision, so even if you manage to kite it and get it to hit a monster or something, he knows), shielding, dashes, spell vamp, his first clear is ridiculous healthy, good stats, where do you even gain an advantage on Lee if you want to counter jungle him? He can't hang with WW usually, but that's not saying much. I've been working on Kindred Jg lately and when I see Lee on other side I just cringe.
: If you're diamond and have a hard time winning vs gold i have some questions. Especially if you're on a gold account. You should be able win your own lane decisively enough that you can 1. Support other lanes and help team control important objectives and 2. Be strong in teamfight enough for your team to always come out on top. Getting a team of 4 trolls is a very rare occurrence
> [{quoted}](name=Żügżwäng,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=mVFJnUjE,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2019-12-28T02:38:19.526+0000) > > > > Getting a team of 4 trolls is a very rare occurrence Nah.
: Botlanes who never come to dragon
My favorite lately is with Kindred. I'll gank the enemy jg at their second buff right at 3 minutes. Then I can take scuttle, or sometimes gank mid. So I gank mid, help them win lane, then ping for help at marked scuttle, because of course enemy jg wants to prevent a secure mark/snowball situation, and I of course just used most of resources on two ganks. EVERY FUCKIN TIME, my mid laner ignores 10 - 20s of "Help Me" pings until I die on river collapsed on by enemy jg and the teammate that actually helped them. They supposedly moved the scuttle spawn time back so laners "could assist" with them. What a fuckin joke that turned out to be.
Overmost (NA)
: go delete riot client in the folder of league and just run the .exe with an old version from the other folder
> [{quoted}](name=Overmost,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=dpymhHQi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-23T04:48:56.812+0000) > > go delete riot client in the folder of league and just run the .exe with an old version from the other folder This does not seem like an optimal solution.
: Yeah. They are. Most junglers right now are skipping Krugs, Skipping Raptors, and if they are lucking ending what they call their first clear as level 3. I clear my first clear as almost level 5, because I go Red > Krugs > Raptors > Gank (which gets a little lane XP) > Scuttle if available > Blue > Gromp > Wolves. And yes. they can do Red > Blue > Scuttle, because most champ's level 2 power budget makes taking the second at only level 2 much longer and harder. By the time they kill blue, Scuttle can actually spawn. Meanwhile their team is level 4.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E50IZ8JU,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-24T22:56:35.477+0000) > > Yeah. They are. Most junglers right now are skipping Krugs, Skipping Raptors, and if they are lucking ending what they call their first clear as level 3. > > I clear my first clear as almost level 5, because I go Red > Krugs > Raptors > Gank (which gets a little lane XP) > Scuttle if available > Blue > Gromp > Wolves. > > And yes. they can do Red > Blue > Scuttle, because most champ's level 2 power budget makes taking the second at only level 2 much longer and harder. By the time they kill blue, Scuttle can actually spawn. Meanwhile their team is level 4. This is so hilariously wrong. Try the training tool sometime you dolt. They moved back spawn times for scuttles last season, I can do blue, gromp, red, THEN circle to enemy blue, take that, and then scittle will just be spawning. You have no clue.
: Anyone using Logitech G900 in this game? Advice needed.
You may actually just want to play with the pointer speed options in your normal mouse settings first. I'm pretty sure these work 'with' all the logitech settings, they aren't disabled by logitech. Sounds like you want to fiddle with pointer speed and Enhance Pointer Precision in the (probably) third tab for mouse in control panel.
Alkyline (NA)
: Warwick Ult Skillshot
Nah it's perfect. Go into practice tool, set up 2 enemy dummies close together on the river, then a third behind them, practice running back and forth then ulting between the fist two to hit the third. So this for like two whole minutes and you should have no problem ulting period with WW. 2mil WW mastery.
: You didn't read the post you replied to. reread it.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E50IZ8JU,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2019-12-24T19:49:26.586+0000) > > You didn't read the post you replied to. reread it. I did read it. No-one is trying what you are claiming as it is not possible. Yuumi could clear red and blue solo and still be waiting for a scuttle to spawn.
: Trashy Junglers are trashy junglers. 90% of the community is still trying to clear jung pathing from Red > Blue > Scuttle > Gank, when that literally hamstrings off about a level and a half from the clear. IF YOU SKIP KRUGS ROUND 1 YOU ARE DOING JUNGLE WRONG. I'm saying this as someone who plays both meta and nonmeta junglers; I can almost keep up with mid's levels. STILL. I can still beat bot levels. Yet when I support..... 90% of junglers are 1-2 levels below me. And then I look at what they have cleared. THEY ALWAYS LEAVE KRUGS.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E50IZ8JU,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-12-23T20:54:37.859+0000) > > Trashy Junglers are trashy junglers. 90% of the community is still trying to clear jung pathing from Red > Blue > Scuttle > Gank, when that literally hamstrings off about a level and a half from the clear. > > IF YOU SKIP KRUGS ROUND 1 YOU ARE DOING JUNGLE WRONG. > > I'm saying this as someone who plays both meta and nonmeta junglers; I can almost keep up with mid's levels. STILL. I can still beat bot levels. > Yet when I support..... 90% of junglers are 1-2 levels below me. And then I look at what they have cleared. THEY ALWAYS LEAVE KRUGS. You obviously haven't jungled in a while and have no clue. It's physically impossible to do anything near Red -> Blue -> scuttle -> etc, you would be waiting a full minute for scuttle to spawn. They pushed that back over a season ago. But you knew that...
: Your strength at laning should not be negated by enemy jungler playing a war of attrition
"Our fate at that point is 100% tied to whether or not we get jg intervention, and whether or not that jg intervention comes before our advantage is negated by the constant return ganks." Lies. If you are the winning bot lane when jg shows up like you described, you should be able to hang back n farm near your tower safely while teammates do something constructive somewhere else. Just stop pushing. Winning laners assume that can then plan up no matter what, they are wrong.
: I do not think jungle should get EXP back, toplane suffers way too much if that happens, exception being Mordekaiser but he is exceptional in more ways than that one. Other lanes are not really safe either depending on the jungler in question, having us go back to that time when they could spam ganks like hell and not fall behind in EXP by just clearing a couple of camps here and there would be miserable for everyone but the junglers. What is the point of solo laning if the jungler playing PVE is equally strong? There needs to be a downside for not having to interact with champions much at all when farming. Some supports do need buffs if this present system is to be kept though, not everyone was badly affected but some were hit hard.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lO87XlIl,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-12-23T14:59:49.395+0000) > > I do not think jungle should get EXP back, toplane suffers way too much if that happens, exception being Mordekaiser but he is exceptional in more ways than that one. > > Other lanes are not really safe either depending on the jungler in question, having us go back to that time when they could spam ganks like hell and not fall behind in EXP by just clearing a couple of camps here and there would be miserable for everyone but the junglers. > > What is the point of solo laning if the jungler playing PVE is equally strong? There needs to be a downside for not having to interact with champions much at all when farming. > > > Some supports do need buffs if this present system is to be kept though, not everyone was badly affected but some were hit hard. THIS. This right here is the problem. I've been around heavily for last three seasons as xp was continually nerfed. In NONE of these seasons, read NONE, was it such an easy task to 'spam-gank.' The only time that happens is when a losing laner pushes the lane up over n over like a dummy and gets repeatedly ganked for it. Then cries 'jg op.' It's so bonkers at this point it's unimaginable.
mark6028 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Super Sandmanne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E50IZ8JU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-22T18:41:06.719+0000) > > It's perplexing that they went down this path at all, since I'm fairly certain most players would agree that jungle xp should have gone up since last season, not the other way around. I'm not saying that we should bring back devourer farming jungle meta, but would it be so terrible if farming the jungle gave as much xp as farming a lane? Why should PvE give the same reward as PvP? LOL Junglers man. Do less get the same reward, you wish.
> [{quoted}](name=mark6028,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E50IZ8JU,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-22T20:01:10.038+0000) > > Why should PvE give the same reward as PvP? LOL > Junglers man. > > Do less get the same reward, you wish. Its amazing if this isn't a joke. The jg has 10x the responsibilities as a laner lol. Ganks Counterganks Track enemy jg Counterjungle CS Counterjungle Kills Heralds(2x) Dragons(4+) Barons Assist losing lanes Assist winning lanes Push Rotate to cover empty lanes ... Actually farm their own jg? Get real. Protect your one tower and be silent lol.
Comentários de Rioters
: Whats up with ranked?
Game is reaching broken zenith. To many champions, many of which do way to much damage, balance destroyed buy you in poor attempts to lock people into the standard meta game. It's bad when the average game has champs four to five levels apart over and over.
: I hardly say jungle wins games. I've had multiply occasions of being ahead ganking and kill the enemy jungler more but my team just losses on their own. An example that stuck out with me is I ganked top and mid 2 times and got them two kill. I go back and farm my camps for like .5 seconds and my mid and top are just solo dieing to the enemy... some games it doesnt matter what you do
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeRework,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qLVfxPdj,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-12-22T09:36:41.569+0000) > > I hardly say jungle wins games. I've had multiply occasions of being ahead ganking and kill the enemy jungler more but my team just losses on their own. An example that stuck out with me is I ganked top and mid 2 times and got them two kill. I go back and farm my camps for like .5 seconds and my mid and top are just solo dieing to the enemy... some games it doesnt matter what you do Finally have up on Warwick this season laughably enough. Got tired of opening games 6/0/6 and still not being able to carry and having to watch my team blow insane leads. Late game jgs are a joke though this patch. I just can't win. Tied of this bull.
: Is it me or is Jungle in a very bad spot right now?
This game had good passed the point of no return I think. I tilted multiple times yesterday because one to laner after another would not leash, leaving me starting behind enemy jg. It's bad enough that mid and Top can now get *anywhere from three to five levels on me before I even get an ultimate skill.* supports can roam into if to stop me from taking camps. It's insane and in finally over it.
DunkProphet (EUNE)
: Four matches ago im in a countermatchup and for the first time in my life I genuinely ask for help from my jungler instead of using the help ping The response comes from Nautilus support 'Shut the fuck up your a toplaner nobody cares your lane is irrelevant' Oh ok sorry please continue having fun sorry for interrupting you master
> [{quoted}](name=DunkProphet,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZcxAExbF,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-12-22T11:51:41.912+0000) > > Four matches ago im in a countermatchup and for the first time in my life I genuinely ask for help from my jungler instead of using the help ping > The response comes from Nautilus support 'Shut the fuck up your a toplaner nobody cares your lane is irrelevant' > > Oh ok sorry please continue having fun sorry for interrupting you master You don't realize, doing almost anything to help top after level 3 is really hard now. For all the island jokes, I loved having up lane until this season. 2v1 ok far side of the map should be most controllable situation. Now with third season in a row xp reduction and no catchup xp, it's just..not feasible. Mid and Top get sick huge xp and Mooney leads now, I can't imaging why anyone is happy with this.
Trias000 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=XJ99999999999999,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qLVfxPdj,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-22T01:26:07.780+0000) > > someone is smurfing in an elo they dont belong in, resulting in poor game experience and unintended things happening. > > hmm, almost as if smurfing is the problem and not the game. game is fine if the game is an equal 48-52% range for both teams. > > when you put a smurf, its a wild card, and can result in 1 sided games where people have no chance and it makes the game look broken. > > still waiting for the day riot stops caring about money and instead cares about the game experience and bans smurfs, just like fortnite and dota 2 have done. LoL, despite being more popular than Dota 2 and pretty even with fortnite, is the game that is yet to do this. very surprising. That's all true. But you don't need a smurf in your game to have a terrible experience as the jungler. Just someone on the enemy team who does better than someone on your team. They get slightly ahead of their lane counterpart = they get lightyears ahead of you.
> [{quoted}](name=Trias000,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qLVfxPdj,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-12-22T02:35:12.516+0000) > > That's all true. But you don't need a smurf in your game to have a terrible experience as the jungler. Just someone on the enemy team who does better than someone on your team. They get slightly ahead of their lane counterpart = they get lightyears ahead of you. Play 20 ranked games as jg. Do each without a leash, so you have a tiny starting defecit. Report back. No shaco for leash cheating. We'll see how you do. Spoiler: You get annihilated.
klin537 (NA)
: a level gives about 600 gold worth of stats. So if a solo laner has 2 levels over the jg that is a 1200 gold difference. idk if the camps give that much.
> [{quoted}](name=klin537,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jUttEyjV,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-12-18T02:46:49.180+0000) > > a level gives about 600 gold worth of stats. > So if a solo laner has 2 levels over the jg that is a 1200 gold difference. > > idk if the camps give that much. A level is closer to 450g for the average champ, maybe closer to 400g. Their is a list somewhere, it is a little different for each champ.
: > [{quoted}](name=RebeccaUCuber,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RwGa3rE5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-14T11:51:41.739+0000) > > I dont get why new Players have to start in gold, while older ones have to climb back a lot... > Let them start Bronze/Silver...not in Gold when a lot of ppl just ruin games and takes ages to derank. but you do though... the arbitrary rank you're given is iron bronze or silver for a new player. your starting mmr is silver 3 or silver 2. only way to play with golds as a new player is to somehow get carried atleast 4 games in a row, or the matchmaker is trash.
> [{quoted}](name=Lazy Grandpa,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RwGa3rE5,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-12-14T16:08:30.829+0000) > > but you do though... the arbitrary rank you're given is iron bronze or silver for a new player. your starting mmr is silver 3 or silver 2. > > only way to play with golds as a new player is to somehow get carried atleast 4 games in a row, or the matchmaker is trash. Definitely not true! I had a player in one of my ranked games a month ago who literally had only won one ranked match, ever. Was 1/6 or something. Was my mid in a gold game. Fact.
Comentários de Rioters
: Why is JG even a role? When I first started League I never understood why that was a thing. I get everyone has played league for 10 years so they would never want anything changed, but honestly... as far as SOLOQ goes, I can't stand the role. Think about it: * Everyone else has a fair fight/matchup (ignoring counterpicks), but there is 1 role to randomly make it so the better player doesn't win their lane sometimes? * Why should laners have to worry about their matchup AND someone elses randomly showing up? * If I'm mid lane and my opponent invades our JG and kills our JG, its viewed as my fault. Yet if the JG camps mid, I'm just supposed to watch the other lanes lose lane vs lane while I get 2v1 ?
> [{quoted}](name=Kanyoupipu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aJBzwWG4,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2019-12-13T22:51:12.635+0000) > > Why is JG even a role? When I first started League I never understood why that was a thing. I get everyone has played league for 10 years so they would never want anything changed, but honestly... as far as SOLOQ goes, I can't stand the role. Think about it: > > * Everyone else has a fair fight/matchup (ignoring counterpicks), but there is 1 role to randomly make it so the better player doesn't win their lane sometimes? > > * Why should laners have to worry about their matchup AND someone elses randomly showing up? > > * If I'm mid lane and my opponent invades our JG and kills our JG, its viewed as my fault. Yet if the JG camps mid, I'm just supposed to watch the other lanes lose lane vs lane while I get 2v1 ? This is going to be shocking to you, but the best counter to your lane being camped is a fed jg on your team! I tell mid in queue sometimes "you work for me early game so I can work for you late game" and those games are MAGIC. A little help closing up plays from mid early games = easist jg matches of all time. If you feel like you are getting camped a lot, look for more opportunity to help your jg before that happens, you will be mindblown when you start breaking 20 kills as super fed always-assisted-by-jg mid laner.
BlackXIV (EUW)
: The best is when mid doesn't move from under tower, bot is always in base feeeding or recalling without the basic wave management then they whine at you (the only one with a positive kda and 90% participation) for leaving all Drakes to the enemy. XD
> [{quoted}](name=BlackXIV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hKR7c7bZ,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2019-12-14T13:22:02.610+0000) > > The best is when mid doesn't move from under tower, bot is always in base feeeding or recalling without the basic wave management then they whine at you (the only one with a positive kda and 90% participation) for leaving all Drakes to the enemy. XD https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0Nae3cuU-jungle-players-rule-22
: > [{quoted}](name=AstroFerrari ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hKR7c7bZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-14T06:27:35.543+0000) > > And on top of this, as soon they start crapping the bed in lane, the good ol *jungler alive pings* come through. It's so outrageously tilting This happened to me, in an earlier game. My mid laner decided he didn't wanna use his prio to help with scuttle fights and I ended up dying to his jungler, since the enemy jungler decided to actually help. So, I thought to myself "Okay, I'll ignore Mid Lane, then." Fast forward a couple seconds, as I'm walking from base (due to the respawn from the aforementioned fight), my mid laner gets solo killed by their opposing laner. They immediately began spam pinging the "Question Mark" ping around my champion.
> [{quoted}](name=Tentacle Advisor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hKR7c7bZ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-12-14T06:55:51.818+0000) > > This happened to me, in an earlier game. My mid laner decided he didn't wanna use his prio to help with scuttle fights and I ended up dying to his jungler, since the enemy jungler decided to actually help. So, I thought to myself "Okay, I'll ignore Mid Lane, then." > > Fast forward a couple seconds, as I'm walking from base (due to the respawn from the aforementioned fight), my mid laner gets solo killed by their opposing laner. They immediately began spam pinging the "Question Mark" ping around my champion. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0Nae3cuU-jungle-players-rule-22
IVSakenz (NA)
: The worst thing about jungle now is that a single mistake early can keep the jungler from being effective in anyway the rest of the game.. and it most likely will not even be a mistake by the jungler themselves.. example: start blue and bot does not ward/cover red for you, opposing jungler invades and clears that half of your jungle.. or you go in for an early gank and get no help from the lane and either fail or die yourself.. your now behind with no way to catch up..and you start getting flamed from your bot lane because they are pushing all the way to tower at level 3 and repeatably ganked by a shaco because they have no idea how to properly position themselves to defend it. It is nothing you did.. your teammates just do not know how to help or use the jungler or even just protect themselves from an early ganker.
> [{quoted}](name=IVSakenz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wfl4kacI,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-12-10T14:57:57.136+0000) > > The worst thing about jungle now is that a single mistake early can keep the jungler from being effective in anyway the rest of the game.. > > and it most likely will not even be a mistake by the jungler themselves.. > > example: start blue and bot does not ward/cover red for you, opposing jungler invades and clears that half of your jungle.. or you go in for an early gank and get no help from the lane and either fail or die yourself.. > > your now behind with no way to catch up..and you start getting flamed from your bot lane because they are pushing all the way to tower at level 3 and repeatably ganked by a shaco because they have no idea how to properly position themselves to defend it. > > It is nothing you did.. your teammates just do not know how to help or use the jungler or even just protect themselves from an early ganker. Lord, THIS.
: > [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dY2lreXK,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-14T12:10:56.771+0000) > > And are still down 3 levels and don’t get to play the game. Go and listen to any high elo jungler pretty much praises the current jg changes. The biggest riot haters from the jg role - iwd and tarzaned basically said it's the best jg so far.
> [{quoted}](name=WoodenCreature,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dY2lreXK,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-14T13:24:19.093+0000) > > Go and listen to any high elo jungler pretty much praises the current jg changes. The biggest riot haters from the jg role - iwd and tarzaned basically said it's the best jg so far. You don't play jg, clearly. I was down from a fed mid five levels in a game last night... 5 levels. Never in thousands and thousands of genes been five levels down.
: Can someone explain to me why this client and game takes all of my memory and is still buggy/lagging
It's China bro. Same problem with Path of Exile now, game should run on mediocre computer, but stutters on high end anyway. Justice Department should be looking at anything ten cent bought.
: Especially if you’re {{champion:429}} One of the worst champions to play when there are too many slows on one team.
> [{quoted}](name=2Charmnot2Charm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dLt9nGPq,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-12-12T16:15:58.861+0000) > > Especially if you’re {{champion:429}} > > One of the worst champions to play when there are too many slows on one team. Who is this?
: When is jungling without smite a good thing?
I was a huge fan on doing jg without smite years back, WW main... It is totally impossible now, even with WW, the number one contender for this plan. You can survive, but the gimped xp from not having a jg item makes it impossible to do. So you MUST take smite (1/2 summoner skills auto picked) and you MUST take jg item( 1/6 item slots auto picked). This is Riot "Enforcing the Meta" (which they should never do, it's like they don't have access to a dictionary).
blue38k (NA)
: Can we swap Approach Velocity with Zombie Ward or Ghost Poro?
Gtfo. Approach Velocity + Glacial Augment like peanut butter and jelly. Leave em together.
: Jungle needs to be changed honestly. It is the only role that a team can't carry if it plays badly. Your ADC, Top, Mid Supp can feed and the game is still winnable but your jungler feeds/plays badly/falls behind? GG he is just useless after that . This is why games feel like a coin flip.
> [{quoted}](name=Hayaishi2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IdErbqB6,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-11-29T20:58:43.510+0000) > > Jungle needs to be changed honestly. It is the only role that a team can't carry if it plays badly. > > Your ADC, Top, Mid Supp can feed and the game is still winnable but your jungler feeds/plays badly/falls behind? GG he is just useless after that . This is why games feel like a coin flip. Signed in to say: 100% wrong. I have thousands of games last two seasons, thousands. If you are a losing jg or fall behind in jg, teammates just don't respond to your pings or messages, at all. You might as well mute yourself. This is the primary reason it's hard to catch up in jg. I have effed up mightily in early game, and all it takes is often a single 10s roam from the mid laner to bring me right back into game.
ßlameMyADC (EUNE)
: [MUST SEE] MOST ILLOGICAL THING IN THE HISTORY OF THINGS MAYBE EVER
> [{quoted}](name=ßlameMyADC,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Q7VMbKNk,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-26T17:52:48.993+0000) > > WHY DOES THE **CREATOR OF STARS** > {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:136}} > NOT HAVE A > > **_DARK STAR_ SKIN** > > BUT THIS BOOTLEG PINOCCHIO {{champion:61}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:61}} > AND THIS WEIRD 3D MODEL OF MY SOUL-SUCKING EX-WIFE {{champion:412}} {{champion:412}} {{champion:412}} > HAVE ONE. > > **IS THIS A BUG?** > > P:S: HOW DO I TURN OFF CAPSLOCK? You think that's odd? Warwick didn't get a Blood Moon skin... They literally released during a rare Super Blood Wolf Moon Eclipse in real life, no WW skin...
: I mean...let's try and put this into perspective here, so there's at least a common understanding. I main support, not jungle, but I understand the case just as well. Junglers, I will agree, tend to have some attitudes...but a lot of that is projection, too. Do you have any idea how often people just go "fuck my jungler, no ganks, report x9" when they die in top lane, tp back in, and die immediately again, without *either* jungler ever visiting top? Junglers take *a fuckton* of heat...from the community, as well as from Riot repeatedly gutting their ability to play the game off-script. Let me explain: In earlier seasons, jungles actually *were* a huge, make or break deal. Their strategic impact on the board, their setups, their counters and their invades...there were a lot more to them than simply "gank lane, win game". But...with the ability to make more decisions, comes both the ability to make *super good ones* that basically frustrated the hell out of the enemy team...or *super bad ones* that frustrated everyone on the team. Add to this the projection effect - or another way of putting it, the thought that "I can't be bad, and their jungler can't be better than me, so *ours must royally suck* - and it effectively snowballs and deteriorates into "better jungle wins" becoming everyone's favorite overused meme. Riot, of course, cannot balance individual strategies. Some people could deliver such a crippling blow from the jungle role that it almost did feel like they were solo carrying games at points, when in reality, they were mostly just turning the enemy morale into a messy dumpster fire...pretty damn easy, honestly, and especially more where you may not think. See...I'm actually not trying to pick on anyone here, but if you go into a lot of older youtube videos that talk about the generalities of what to expect out of each elo, ther are a lot of people that stress profusely that plat players are *vehemently freaking toxic*, even compared to lower elos. This is because, in the words of the GamingCurios Jeremy, "Plat players are good, and they *know* they're good...and that's what makes them toxic." This elo is the proverbial gateway from mid-elo to high elo, after all. And these guys all got there because they're better than low elo...so obviously they're deserving of more! But...that's from mostly *solo* play. Diamond elo and higher have a better sense of team play. Straight up. Of course...I say this, and people like Nubrac and Nightblue still exist, but...there are exceptions to everything. Anyway...what really happens here, why Riot always starts each preseason by dropping its pants and taking a dump on the jungle role, is that Riot has to find a way to more or less *standardize* jungling...or so they feel. They honestly do it because they're trying to punish failure within the role harder, and make good play more rewarding. But...when I say "good play" this season, I really mean "good ganks". Even if you contest the enemy's jungle now, it doesn't really matter. What matters most now is *strictly* keeping your team ahead in as many lanes as possible. This is bad for a multitude of reasons, and one of those reasons is the very reason everyone hates junglers - they now have to play *super selfishly* or they're not gonna be worth a rat's ass 5 minutes later. Riot's goal was to make every role matter more, but what they've done is effectively given every jungler a screenplay: get level 3 off half your jungle, go gank a side lane, go get a scuttle, go gank the mid lane, then either recall now to reset before your other half-clear and the last side lane, or just run through all of that then recall. If junglers deviate from that script...or if their gank fails to secure a kill...or if the scuttle got contested and they can't gank afterwards cause both junglers got too low...all of those set junglers *stupidly* far behind now. "But that's fine, cause they're PvE!" Wrong. That's not fine. Cause if they're stupidly far behind, they're not going to fucking help you. They *cant*. Season after season after season of people crying and bitching and moaning about the jungle role being a huge deciding factor, led in more recent seasons to Riot *forcing* the junglers to play more and more selfishly, especially if behind, and constricting any level of strategy junglers could come up with to overcome fucking over their lanes with heavy taxes until they're left...with a script. One they *must* follow, or else cost their team the game. Right now...honestly, if I want the enemy team to lose, then *as support* I try to fuck with the enemy jungler. A SUPPORT JUST SHOWING UP AND POKING THEM EARLY GAME can end up putting them half a level or more *further behind* if you forced them away from their camp or scuttle. No skin off my back, I'm support and dont care about my exp bar as much. My adc is getting solo exp. My jungle is most likely taking everything that I help push the enemy jungle away from, and that enemy jungler would literally be better off AFK after the 3rd or 4th time doing this, cause by then, EVEN I can 1v1 the majority of them...as an enchanter support. I'm lv 6, they're still lv 3 or 4. I have items on them. They have no combat power, and I have plenty of time to annoy them. Even if their team comes to help them...my job is done. I screwed up their timeframe, and got out. If Riot decided to gut your mid lane, right now, to the point that I can walk up as Nami, poke you out of your lane, and put you so far behind just from doing this a few times...mind you, *I'm not even killing you*...I think you'd be pretty fucking livid too.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaosReyn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lXyEvdAR,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-25T20:09:13.363+0000) > > I mean...let's try and put this into perspective here, so there's at least a common understanding. > > I main support, not jungle, but I understand the case just as well. Junglers, I will agree, tend to have some attitudes...but a lot of that is projection, too. Do you have any idea how often people just go "fuck my jungler, no ganks, report x9" when they die in top lane, tp back in, and die immediately again, without *either* jungler ever visiting top? Junglers take *a fuckton* of heat...from the community, as well as from Riot repeatedly gutting their ability to play the game off-script. > > Let me explain: In earlier seasons, jungles actually *were* a huge, make or break deal. Their strategic impact on the board, their setups, their counters and their invades...there were a lot more to them than simply "gank lane, win game". But...with the ability to make more decisions, comes both the ability to make *super good ones* that basically frustrated the hell out of the enemy team...or *super bad ones* that frustrated everyone on the team. Add to this the projection effect - or another way of putting it, the thought that "I can't be bad, and their jungler can't be better than me, so *ours must royally suck* - and it effectively snowballs and deteriorates into "better jungle wins" becoming everyone's favorite overused meme. > > Riot, of course, cannot balance individual strategies. Some people could deliver such a crippling blow from the jungle role that it almost did feel like they were solo carrying games at points, when in reality, they were mostly just turning the enemy morale into a messy dumpster fire...pretty damn easy, honestly, and especially more where you may not think. See...I'm actually not trying to pick on anyone here, but if you go into a lot of older youtube videos that talk about the generalities of what to expect out of each elo, ther are a lot of people that stress profusely that plat players are *vehemently freaking toxic*, even compared to lower elos. This is because, in the words of the GamingCurios Jeremy, "Plat players are good, and they *know* they're good...and that's what makes them toxic." This elo is the proverbial gateway from mid-elo to high elo, after all. And these guys all got there because they're better than low elo...so obviously they're deserving of more! But...that's from mostly *solo* play. Diamond elo and higher have a better sense of team play. Straight up. Of course...I say this, and people like Nubrac and Nightblue still exist, but...there are exceptions to everything. > > Anyway...what really happens here, why Riot always starts each preseason by dropping its pants and taking a dump on the jungle role, is that Riot has to find a way to more or less *standardize* jungling...or so they feel. They honestly do it because they're trying to punish failure within the role harder, and make good play more rewarding. But...when I say "good play" this season, I really mean "good ganks". Even if you contest the enemy's jungle now, it doesn't really matter. What matters most now is *strictly* keeping your team ahead in as many lanes as possible. This is bad for a multitude of reasons, and one of those reasons is the very reason everyone hates junglers - they now have to play *super selfishly* or they're not gonna be worth a rat's ass 5 minutes later. Riot's goal was to make every role matter more, but what they've done is effectively given every jungler a screenplay: get level 3 off half your jungle, go gank a side lane, go get a scuttle, go gank the mid lane, then either recall now to reset before your other half-clear and the last side lane, or just run through all of that then recall. > > If junglers deviate from that script...or if their gank fails to secure a kill...or if the scuttle got contested and they can't gank afterwards cause both junglers got too low...all of those set junglers *stupidly* far behind now. > > "But that's fine, cause they're PvE!" > Wrong. That's not fine. Cause if they're stupidly far behind, they're not going to fucking help you. They *cant*. > > Season after season after season of people crying and bitching and moaning about the jungle role being a huge deciding factor, led in more recent seasons to Riot *forcing* the junglers to play more and more selfishly, especially if behind, and constricting any level of strategy junglers could come up with to overcome fucking over their lanes with heavy taxes until they're left...with a script. One they *must* follow, or else cost their team the game. > > Right now...honestly, if I want the enemy team to lose, then *as support* I try to fuck with the enemy jungler. A SUPPORT JUST SHOWING UP AND POKING THEM EARLY GAME can end up putting them half a level or more *further behind* if you forced them away from their camp or scuttle. No skin off my back, I'm support and dont care about my exp bar as much. My adc is getting solo exp. My jungle is most likely taking everything that I help push the enemy jungle away from, and that enemy jungler would literally be better off AFK after the 3rd or 4th time doing this, cause by then, EVEN I can 1v1 the majority of them...as an enchanter support. I'm lv 6, they're still lv 3 or 4. I have items on them. They have no combat power, and I have plenty of time to annoy them. Even if their team comes to help them...my job is done. I screwed up their timeframe, and got out. > > If Riot decided to gut your mid lane, right now, to the point that I can walk up as Nami, poke you out of your lane, and put you so far behind just from doing this a few times...mind you, *I'm not even killing you*...I think you'd be pretty fucking livid too. This guy gets it. Been explaining this for two seasons. I start every game ganking enemy jg at their second buff. Most of the time this is successful, and then also Game Over for enemy team from 3:00. Run over to other side of jg, kill them again maybe, watch entire enemy team start screaming jg difference and suiciding across map. Hilarious.
klin537 (NA)
: i think they should nerf warwick
WW is fine as he is. If you really think he is that OP, main him for a while and take over the jg. Nidalee is not very strong in JG right now, you would have more success with someone else anyway. Especially in Bronze btw, WW players can barely walk to the next camp without getting lost, they never gank from behind or cut off escapes.... Shouldn't be a problem.
Nea104 (EUW)
: The "stomp or get stomped" nature of the game is well known. And it's depressing for everyone with a bit of common sense. But there are still people not even noticing the issue. And, sadly, this company keeps embracing it. Probably because it helps to create addiction, I guess following the same principles of the gambling issues: _"yes I've lost so much and I feel terrible, but if I don't play I'll feel even worse... and if I play some more MAYBE I can win something back, right?"_.
> [{quoted}](name=Nea104,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ffdZvAZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-25T22:38:59.560+0000) > > The "stomp or get stomped" nature of the game is well known. And it's depressing for everyone with a bit of common sense. But there are still people not even noticing the issue. > > And, sadly, this company keeps embracing it. > Probably because it helps to create addiction, I guess following the same principles of the gambling issues: _"yes I've lost so much and I feel terrible, but if I don't play I'll feel even worse... and if I play some more MAYBE I can win something back, right?"_. Yeah but they ain't getting the money they could be getting over this. I dropped like $20 over the last two weeks on gaming.. on Warframe. I've easily, *easily* spent more time on League, but league does not listen to player feedback, where Warframe clearly does. Do I enjoy fighting on Summoner's Rift? Hell Yeah! I won't give my money to Riot though until they shape up their act, there's a lot of room for improvement.
: Jungle feels like shit
I was reaaaaaally skeptical of these changes after last season, but I played yesterday and jungle felt pretty good. Being the winning jg finally DID allow me to get a lead on laners most games, and getting all the dragons actually madea difference in a game where Olaf was bearing me on ganks but not cs or dragons. We are still less likely to level as fast as a lane champ, but objective and map control was very rewarding finally, so mostlyI like the changes. I still haven't seen the Elder execute yet though, it sounds horrid.
mc4life (EUNE)
: Jungle is disaster rn.
Yeah I was pretty skeptical after last season, but jg felt pretty rewarding today. Even when enemy jg got ahead a bit, having all the objectives impacted the game(like they should). So far, so good.
: Kindred Rework When?
I tried playing Kindred a few times this season, maybe 30 games? I was awful, SO AWFUL. The marks are like a carnival game stacked against you, then she has no cc, and the q doesn't really let you dodge anything. What anther poster said about the tiny q range is very relevant, many times failed to jump a wall. Still can't tell how to get wolf to attack the targets I want. Rough champ.
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Ambitious Minnow

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