: I mean one of the creators has ryze in his fucking name lol. Why do you think tryndamere keeps his ultimate that can be casted while cced and he cant be killed for 5 seconds litteraly give that to anyone else and they would be nerfed into the dust
You say that, but that same ult belongs to a champion that has never seen competitive usage outside of someone trying him out during the gimmicky AP Tryndamere days before that was all but removed (and even then, it was NOT a successful endeavor). His kit is only good for stomping pubs, and that ult is part of his problem. If Tryn didn't have that ult, the rest of his kit would most likely be allowed to be stronger and he could participate in something competitive, if it wasn't for the fact that the other thing holding him back is being a melee AA-based carry in League with little utility. But that ult existing does actively keep him down, and I'm sure the devs know it.
: riot games aka tencent just wanna cater to their chinese audience (which is notably a large one) where internet cafes (aka short games) are popular. money-hungry corporation.....(a redundant thing to say, because aren't all corporations money-hungry?). shit sucks.
I mean, you say that but DotA2 is hugely popular in China as well and they aren't emphasizing particularly short games in a meta where regen is key to laning phase; buybacks are a precious commodity on a long timer that you'll try to work teamfights around; farming is key to a carry's power due to item power spike timings they need to hit and that takes time; and timing high-ground pushes around Roshan is often very important to not losing instantly on getting aggro near the enemy's base, which also means that upon losing Aegis you generally have to wait to try and push high-ground with the next Roshan short of a major teamfight victory where buybacks are used and spent up. Plus, in a game where Techies exists, you can't count on exclusively short games anyway. This is purely Riot shooting for the fast action angle like HotS decided to go for, except unlike HotS it didn't start that way so it had to develop in that direction over time in front of everyone who saw the change. I don't buy the "It's all for China!" angle, or DotA2 wouldn't be popular there. This just looks like blaming a common bad guy nobody will try to defend, honestly.
: it's actually only been about 2. he was a very high skill-cap champion up to season 5 or 6, then he got interactions which were never meant for him and quite a few compensation changes (his kit did not mini-stun previously, I don't think his Q was a scaling execute (or even an execute for that matter), his damage used to fall off like crazy come mid to late (no lee sin would ever get a solo kill unless that player was practically a god with outplays and went full burst AD glass cannon which was a death sentence for anyone sane)
His 2nd Q activation has had an execute since his release, and Lee's damage never fell off before. I've been here long enough to verify at this point. The thing about Lee falling off had nothing to do with his damage or lack thereof, it was that if you built damage you sacrificed his teamfight potential because at best you would trade your life for theirs. If he hard engaged then that most likely means he used his W to get into a good position for a Q or ult start, so he'd have no out as a squishy, making him effectively a diver like Diana but without the durability that Diana got from her main damage stat, and he didn't get as much raw defensive stat to enable diving like that safely, such as Shyvana or an ulting Jax. Given how important teamfighting can be, however, he had to build tank or bruiser depending on the meta at the time so he could live beyond the initial engage and make his impact felt beyond a pick you could've just had your assassin or mage do safer. That's why his damage seemed to fall off. He's always had chunky bases and high scaling, but different metas force him to build differently to accommodate it so he doesn't always get to build to assassinate like he currently does. Odds are good, once anything happens to him again, he'll go back to a bruiser or tank standard and his damage will appear to "fall off" again.
tamaya (NA)
: Yeah, that's right. I am thankful that I was born in a time when I could say "No War! Soldiers are murderers!" while watching TV in an air-conditioned room. Everyone want to be good person.
I mean... once a lot of people find out what war actually entails, they do tend to rail against it and its practitioners. When torture and mass slaughter and more become widely-known as the name of the game and you have to actually face that reality yourself (such as the news and photos from the Vietnam War), people oppose it. People opposed it so hard, in fact, that they treated the returning Vietnam veterans like absolute shit for what the brass told them to do, which then led to us having the knee-jerk counter-reaction to celebrate all soldiers as heroes in later conflicts, regardless what they actually did in the Armed Forces (in the US, at least). If people in Europe knew what exactly the Crusaders did during the Middle Ages, they'd probably have opposed the soldiers then, too. People will celebrate the result, and they will also absolutely vilify the methods used to achieve them because by every standard except war they're inhumane and dehumanizing methods.
nelogis (EUW)
: let me get this straight... you want a champ that is cc-immune 24/7? How about no?
Usually you give them hellish drawbacks for that. Deathwing, for example, can't receive a single helpful spell from his allies in a game where the support role is much more critical to people's direct survival. He can't even interact with objects his allies put on the ground, like Blaze's Bunker (which allows you to hide inside and avoid damage until you leave or it breaks), or Tyrael's Sanctification, which is a damage immunity field for a few seconds. Deathwing literally cannot interact with those despite how insanely valuable they can be as a tradeoff. In addition, his attacks are very telegraphed. He trades all of this for permanent CC immunity. That's a very painful trade, and all things considered it may not even be worth it in his case. Jormungandr isn't actually CC immune, just immune to displacement, however if he is hit with something that would displace him he receives a debuff to increase damage he would take afterward and a slow... which honestly may not be a terrible concept for this game. I can think of some types of champions who would trade being immune to knock-ups and knockbacks for taking more damage. It would be nice to have at least someone that has an answer for rampant displacement spam that Riot has used since Tenacity reduces the value of traditional CCs. Do I think that having someone with permanent CC immunity could work? Yes. Do I think Riot would actually do it well? Probably not, since the other two are also struggling to make it work well and Riot hasn't proven themselves to be better at making a tough design work well than anyone else, honestly.
: > [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r73NwKjL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-18T13:57:20.218+0000) > > Proplay. It was reducing a lot of potential there, because, unsurprisingly, a map that's lit up like a Christmas tree combined with people who actually know how to use vision make for a very dull game. > > It has fairly low impact on lower tiers because lower tier is bad at using vision. Even if at low tiers it has little impact, the game shouldn't be balanced around pro play. I think it would be best balanced around high elo soloqueue.
There are some aspects of the game that probably should be balanced with pro play in mind though. Vision is one of them, since they're going to be objectively the best abusers of the situation. Someone mentioned that the winning team would light up the map like a Christmas tree and choke out the enemy team to prevent a comeback, and that's largely what happened. Other than the occasional creative pathing for a gank, it actually made for very boring spectating because victory was largely a foregone conclusion after the first tower/dragon combo gold influx for the support.
: and if they do they get crucified for playing the game rather than balancing it lol
I remember when Morello was lambasted for being, what rank was it, Silver? And now look how many people would rather he was head of balance again. _Hmm..._ Almost like it really doesn't matter as much as people think to have the developers playing the game religiously so long as they get the data they actually need to balance off of from viable and reliable sources. In my experience, developers balancing the game around their own experiences playing it tend to balance the game even worse than this. Turns out, a lot of developers actually pretty well suck at the games they make and need better information, and you can act on that information regardless of your rank/play-rate.
: NAME ME THE TIME OFF META BECOME POPULAR WITHOUT BEING BROKEN PLEASE TELL ME!!! Also no one plays pyke mid it has basically no playrate. Also the amount of fucking complaints about solo lane pyke showed it was a problem.
Tank Teemo was an off-meta build that became relatively popular in its heyday, and wasn't broken. It was a response to certain top laners like old Darius, in contrast to his normal AP/on-hit build that was more popular outside those specific matchups where Tankmo was taken. The only reason thing that really stopped it was Gnar's release who did the same thing but objectively better, rather than being nerfed because it was broken. AP Trynd was nuked because it was frustrating to deal with perpetual split-push in an uncoordinated environment like solo-queue more than actually being broken (and I recall a time it was brought out in a pro match, too... in which the Trynd was shutdown so hard he was literally a dead weight on the team). Not everything off-meta that becomes popular is broken. Just most of them.
: > [{quoted}](name=ClaireRedfield,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g53JK9pg,comment-id=00080004,timestamp=2019-11-15T21:39:15.946+0000) > > I didn't agree with the post even down voted it because I thought it was an absurd idea. Even still people were coming up with good ideas about the topic and discussing **GAMEPLAY RELATED TOPICS IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANOR** and I'd never want to see a discussion like that just be erased. This Nazi book burning behavior needs to stop.... They only burned a few books compared to the communists. Call it commie book burning.
It doesn't matter who burned more books, the point is that books were burned, knowledge was suppressed, writers, ideas, and discussion were censored, and the Nazis were the most infamous people to have done it. Just like the case here with the Yuumi thread. I visited the Yuumi thread, thought some people had some interesting ideas even if I didn't agree with all of them and now it's gone despite people talking about the game in what was effectively a constructive manner. They were proposing ideas, and some people were proposing other ideas or why the previously proposed ideas may not work, like an actual discussion, and now it's gone. The reason given by the moderator isn't sufficient based on what I actually saw going on over there, and if it was removed because of a couple people having an argument then you might as well close the entire forums.
: > [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cX3VkYEd,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-14T20:48:04.955+0000) > > garbage? some are, but look at malphite, you literally cant ignore his armor, naut is still a great one aswell with his powerful low CD shield, ornn is actually a decent lane bully, poppy is still and always will be relevant because of her W, galio is a great mid lane tank as he can bully most mages into submission, i see grag constantly rn because of predator gragas being a thing “Look at Malphite” the guy who’s currently going full ap? -.- Naut is a joke. Ornn is okay. Poppy? She’s okay. I guess. Assuming your opponent didn’t realize she built resistances and refused to build a black cleaver (oh wait they always do) and a void staff. Galio is a joke. Riot has gutted him so hard that he doesn’t even win into mages anymore.
Yeah, Naut is such a joke that he made major appearances at Worlds where he had a huge influence whether it was Doinb in mid lane or almost every match featuring him as a support at least once in the series, and is a major threat in even in soloQ support with a 51% winrate with a stonky 16% pickrate, and about double that in banrate. What an absolute joke. And Galio wins just fine. I didn't know 51% winrate with about 3% pickrate meant he was gutted. Those champs Xavanic listed are all getting results. Though, Malph is definitely building AP most commonly right now, but even still he has a very viable tank route.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lauchmelder,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8dc5W4df,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-14T22:31:37.978+0000) > > Looking at the amount of threads that complained about URF no, people didn't enjoy regular URF. I'd say you're not entirely wrong, but mostly wrong. lmao. There are far more posts on the forums requesting URF come back. Id be content with RGM period coming back, not just URF. But riot is lazy. They want league to die. Thats what it feels like to me personally.
> [{quoted}](name=Applepieohmy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8dc5W4df,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-14T22:34:54.972+0000) > > I'd say you're not entirely wrong, but mostly wrong. lmao. There are far more posts on the forums requesting URF come back. Id be content with RGM period coming back, not just URF. But riot is lazy. They want league to die. Thats what it feels like to me personally. When URF was actually here, it got a lot of complaints on the boards because of how utterly broken a lot of the champions were in there, and even if you banned out the most egregious offenders you still had to play with some utter bullshit that was inevitably going to get picked by people who wanted wins in URF more than they wanted wins in Ranked ("Why you gotta troll in Ranked, but tryhard in URF?" was not an uncommon sentiment). Obviously when URF goes away some people are going to request it come back, just like people did for Odyssey, Star Guardian, Nexus Blitz, Ascension... you see where I'm going with this? When something goes away, of course the people who liked it want it to come back. And no, I don't think the amount of people requesting its return outnumber the people who complained during its tenure on the boards. It was about equal.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ser Nightmarre,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A9TFK9kA,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-11-14T06:59:42.305+0000) > > Have you seen the damage on you're team i mean how do you expect to win when veigar did almost as MUCH DAMAGE AS SUP MORGANA I'm less concerned about Veigar when you have a support Senna basically doubling everyone else's damage, including Kai'sa who herself could use some time with the nerf bat.
You guys got run over hard, this game isn't actually an indicator of balance in any way. They probably could've picked anyone, looking at this screen, and still run you over like an old-school D&D Juggernaut. This was a matchmaking victory, not a champion victory.
Terozu (NA)
: There's really no such thing. OoC what would you define as a secure password?
10+ characters with non-alphanumeric characters thrown in. If you're logging onto a system that doesn't allow non-alphanumerics, then the longer you make it, the better. Most login systems lock you out after enough failed attempts, and somebody being able to successfully guess a password of the length I mentioned with non-alphanumerics thrown in is next to impossible within the lockout attempt window. Alphanumeric characters give you a possibility of 36 characters per password character to choose from, add in non-alphanumerics and you get significantly more. Even if you were to take a general password, like the stereotypical "Password123," you could do "P[as]s/w-or=d1,2(3" and you've made it significantly harder to crack, even for a password that started off that simple. The only reliable way someone is getting that password is if they use a program to brute force passwords in a system that doesn't lock you out from repeated failed attempts, or decrypt the password database (which is a huge undertaking in and of itself), or scam it out of you.
: nothing to do with entitlement its just part of playing a video game. who cares what the RANDOMS on your team or the enemy think its a video game
It IS a video game, you're right! But there are other people playing said video game on your team, too, so it's partially your responsibility to consider them as well. Even if you don't know them, that doesn't mean you can blow them off with no recourse: there are punishments for repeatedly leaving for a reason, even if it is "just a video game." I don't mind if you play something wacky with the intent to try to win with it, but if you blow your team off because you wanted to play a game 20 minutes before you go to work, then I don't care if it's a game: you wasted our time. Take those 20 minutes, multiply it by 9, and you get 180 minutes of collective wasted time because you wanted to play a game without proper time management.
: > [{quoted}](name=BrokenRayquaza,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=3JgLEhZq,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-14T12:25:10.890+0000) > > I hate gold. It ruined my want to climb. Maybe next season I will try to hit diamond or smthn From what I've heard, Diamond is just as bad toxicity wise, if not worse, than silver and gold.
> [{quoted}](name=ThisName1sDumb,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=3JgLEhZq,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-14T15:52:39.026+0000) > > From what I've heard, Diamond is just as bad toxicity wise, if not worse, than silver and gold. From what I've seen watching streamers, Diamond is just as bad toxicity wise. Unfortunately, they also have that gift where you're just skilled enough to know how to "soft throw" in such a way that's incredibly hard to actually report for, while still definitively throwing, because something didn't go their way. Even Master+ is apparently fairly toxic. I see flaming all the time at that MMR as soon as a loss is starting to become apparent. I saw two streamers get into it over application of "full pressure" and whether or not one of them was even applying that pressure to begin with. One of them even tried to get the other on Discord so they could argue about it even further. My conclusion? Every rank has its share of toxicity, and it doesn't seem to really get better at any point.
: Not really, more like they are listening to this community that has been crying for the longest while about wanting to "play anything any where and build whatever they want" Riot literally took that and this is what we have today and this community should be blamed for it not Riot because you sure as hell bet they'll be making more carry oriented "supports" don't be surprised if they decide to make an actual AP carry support in the near future and this is what the community asked for. This community cried for the longest while to play anything any where and have more diversity and I said that was a bad idea and here we are today and the dumb part is Riot actually supports this garbage with their recent "Is it meta" video, they now support AD Ahri carry, AP Leona Top but more importantly they support the support role for actually being able to play things other than tanks and enchanters and want to include AP, Assassins, Marksmans etc. People are complain about Yasuo being broken in three different roles yet they literally asked for a single champion to be played any where with success. A single champion is designed for a single role and should be as so. Top laners don't want ranged champions Mid laners don't want tanks or bruisers. Bottom laners don't want two carries in one lane. Simple as that but this community asked for it and so they shall receive.
That's actually for the better. It means they aren't constrained to certain design parameters when designing a champion. It also means the meta can change more fluidly when more champion types are viable in more lane set-ups, like DotA2 where some carry heroes can also function in a support capacity and vice versa, which enables different strategies when they're viable for it. Lina as a support is going to use the threat of blowing you up as her map presence tool when she roams, just like Pyke can use threat of death by blowing you up as his support presence in largely the same way. Support doesn't have to be only "I save my team!" The Support role is a force multiplier, not a babysitter, despite a lot of people's desire to see it become that. It just so happens that a babysitter is also a good force multiplier, just like a pick/hook champ can be as well. Asking for champions to be restrained to a single role/lane is literally saying "Make the game have _less_ strategic depth, please!" Is it a tall order to ask for champions to be balanced around multiple possible roles? Absolutely, and not every champion is likely to be able to go everywhere else anyway due to their kit. But to put everything into one possible use is terrible and leads to nerfs to their original role just to keep them in that role exclusively (see: Lulu top getting Lulu support nerfed).
: Illogical I know. But its so boring to see them win every year. like oh hey its time for worlds. who's gonna win? some Asian team. ResidentSleeper
I mean... that's like excluding Koreans from a global StarCraft tournament. You're excluding people just so so another region can win? How about the other regions catch up instead, like they're sort of starting to in SC2 with Serral and Reynor being legitimate threats. It sucks to see, but that's just the way it should be. If they put in the effort, they should reap the rewards instead of being gated off and told "You guys win too much, it's someone else's turn." I don't care who wins as long as we get good games. The problem is that unlike the DotA2 international earlier this year, we didn't get that many good games from Worlds and that's what disappoints me more than "some Asian team winning."
: You know what? Riot and Youtube have some things in common. They both were once great but became sell outs They both once cared about the quality of their products and now because of money they don't They both prefer to set strict rules on whatever they think is right and not what in reality is right And the most basic one, they both don't care about they customers
> [{quoted}](name=FSRER,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pww2bFaE,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2019-11-10T17:15:11.636+0000) > > You know what? Riot and Youtube have some things in common. > They both were once great but became sell outs > They both once cared about the quality of their products and now because of money they don't > They both prefer to set strict rules on whatever they think is right and not what in reality is right > And the most basic one, they both don't care about they customers Riot has been bad since the very beginning, what are you on about? Look up the origins of League and see all the shady advertising they pulled. They trash-talked DotA, completely closed a DotA forum (and from there springs up accusations that they copied some of the proposed hero ideas, but I can't verify that). They also said that they'd never implement certain champion designs because of "burden of knowledge," which implied that they thought their playerbase couldn't handle a complex champion. The quality of their early product was extremely shoddy: the artistic end of it was absolutely terrible for a game released in 2009 and the kits were largely uninspired and simplistic (and sometimes just plain haphazard, like old Sion), with designs being pulled from a combination of extremely common archetypes and DotA itself (while, again, trash-talking it). But at least they did care more about customer support before. That was a nice period of time.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N1u8e6qU,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-11-10T20:18:22.886+0000) > > How is she far more balanced? She is a completely unbalancable mess right now. Even after they removed her unique mechanic. She is trash in low through mid ELO while simultaneously being completely broken in high ELO and competitive. They are going to have to pretty much gut her for every ELO but super high if they don't want her pick/ban in competitive or accept her being pick/ban if they want her to be ok in soloq Popular =/= broken. Old akali was actually, legitimately broken when she was in a state where she could reliably be played, having far more mobility and straight up burst. Old akali was summarily gutted and left to be unplayable. New akali, for the most part, only receives numbers tweaks.
Nothing like old Akali getting ahead and there was nothing your squishies could do about it because they got ran down by point-and-click R's with double the range of Flash that had 3 charges and gained a new charge on kill. Yeah... honestly, I'm surprised that old Akali went without a rework for as long as she did.
: URF is shit, but if everyone wants it back, bring back Hexakill, Ascension, Nexus Blitz & other modes back as well. At least make it a weekend thing like how it worked back then.
> [{quoted}](name=BeatzBoyFTW,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=siGav9Xk,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2019-11-10T13:28:13.662+0000) > > URF is shit, but if everyone wants it back, bring back Hexakill, Ascension, Nexus Blitz & other modes back as well. At least make it a weekend thing like how it worked back then. Agreed. Bring back the rotating game modes. It was nice variety. Making one of them permanent is just going to result in stagnancy, but if you rotate them then you make people eager for it and it maintains higher player count over its lifetime. I'd at least come back for weekends with those modes on it, I don't play otherwise.
Kai Guy (NA)
: I just did 5 promotional series and had a total of 3 losses and 1 failed attempt. Where was my bad teams? The G2 promo I lost? 20% seems like a pretty low value if you ask me.
Because it doesn't actually happen. It's a neat example of confirmation bias, though. They would be just as likely to get the matches they got during Promotions as they would be outside of them, they just don't bother recording that mentally because there's less on the line. I've seen my friends get rainbow matches in their Silver queues (Bronze/Silver/Gold players), just like I've seen them get all Silver matches. Their Promotions didn't have patterns that were any different. They had people inting, people flaming, blaming, and whatever else... but they got those in their normal ranked matches, too. The matchmaker can't predict when that will happen or when people are on tilt to magically help you avoid them on your Promotions.
: Same. I remember a garen who spammed N word all game in ally and all chat for literally no reason and me and my duo both reported him and nothing happened. Riot likes to talk a big game about how they're against hate speech, but they don't actually practice it at all.
We say that, but I guess we forget how ineffective Tribunal was. People would often go unpunished for months due to lack of player participation creating an enormous backlog, especially toward the end of its lifespan. Rewards were also tied to the system, so people who didn't give a crap but wanted the quick rewards would go into Tribunal and spam "Pardon/Punish" just for the rewards without caring about the context of the game or the chat logs. Unless they rework the system from the ground up, it'd just be removed in short order again regardless of how good people think it was while it's not here. It was removed for a reason, a list of them in fact.
: When tanks do have skill expression, they become OP in competitive and useless in Solo Q
The good ol' Shen Dilemma. Tanks are hard to give real skill expression outside of CC usage and he's a primary example of that, because of what you said. It's easier to add "skill expression" to an assassin's kit because it's frankly just plain easier to design complex damage patterns than tanking patterns without the tanking patterns feeling just plain impractical.
: I remember when lens used to disable shrooms and automatically activate boxes so they would die in a couple of seconds without having to touch them, just walking with lens in range. Even though it made those champions useless because they were made around those kits, that's a design flaw. Invisibility sucks in pvp games, designers need to realize this.
Invisibility is fine on players so long as you give enemies the appropriate tools to handle them. Stealth heroes in DotA2 are fine; in League, they never gave you all the tools necessary to deal with it. Relying solely on a specific kind of ward to see them made them overbearing when they didn't need to be. If they had added something like Dust in addition to the wards, then stealth wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad. But they never did. They forced you to rely on stationary wards to see through invisibility, which is the actual terrible design. Now, invisibilty on _traps_, that's a different story to me. Those just suck to play against in every regard. Invis players can be worked around with the proper tools, but invis traps much more rarely give you that opportunity. Invis traps are so annoying that even the infamous Techies in DotA2 now only has one truly invisible trap, and it's the root trap that deals zero damage, and has a warning sound before it actually roots you. Especially something like Shaco boxes which practically mandate you be ranged or you need not apply.
: Blizzard's excuse is it's something good players would use to get an advantage that bad players wouldn't use, completely ignoring the other myriad things good players use that bad players don't. I suspect Riot's excuse would be similar. There are still programs that allow you to zoom out more. I won't suggest you use one as they are certainly against the rules and maybe something Riot will punish. What I will say is I have a friend who has used one such program since season 5 and has not been punished for it once and I don't think I've heard of someone being banned for using it.
MOBAs are generally balanced with their zoom levels at least partially in mind, which is why they let you unlock your camera. Risk vs. Reward of no longer having as much vision on yourself to have more vision elsewhere. Let us zoom out more and you're inherently safer. Also, if you don't suggest people use those programs, why are you bringing them up on official forums at all and then giving a testimony on the fact your friend hasn't been punished for it? That's sending some mixed messages there.
: TBF Malzahar ult used to be 550 + 130% AP / 2.5 Seconds of Suppression And no one actually had a problem with that. --- So the thing is that the ratios on the champions themselves aren't all that more powerful today than they were in the past. The issue is that we have extra damage from items, **permanent stat dragons, and special effect runes.** Basically the damage is about the same, its the amount of damage **sources** that have gone up. Reverting back to season 5/6 masteries while making runes 1 BE each would be a step in the right direction. --- Riot has forgotten that the game is about the champions and that any other bonuses are just that, bonuses. That is why current runes make or break champions in-game and dragons widen the gap with permanent buffs rather than windows of power.
> [{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5teEQrzd,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2019-11-03T00:41:44.010+0000) > > TBF > > Malzahar ult used to be 550 + 130% AP / 2.5 Seconds of Suppression > > And no one actually had a problem with that. > > --- > > So the thing is that the ratios on the champions themselves aren't all that more powerful today than they were in the past. > > The issue is that we have extra damage from items, **permanent stat dragons, and special effect runes.** > > Basically the damage is about the same, > > its the amount of damage **sources** that have gone up. > > Reverting back to season 5/6 masteries while making runes 1 BE each would be a step in the right direction. > > --- > > Riot has forgotten that the game is about the champions and that any other bonuses are just that, bonuses. That is why current runes make or break champions in-game and dragons widen the gap with permanent buffs rather than windows of power. Probably unpopular opinion (not sure if it is or not, I've never surveyed), but I'd rather they removed masteries/runes entirely. Your champion's strengths should be a result of the champion design by itself and items, not its synergies with runes that you chose outside of the match itself, which affects balance by shoving down champions who don't synergize with current runes as well as others who might otherwise be fine, or excessively pushing up people who have potentially abusive synergy with them (see: Klepto, Conqueror for a while). With damage and scalings as they are, I'm not convinced we really need runes increasing that even further, and this lets them more appropriately balance various champions and items without having to worry about potential outlier abuse cases for something that doesn't exist in their kit naturally.
: It could have to do with physical health. The US is one of the top consumers of junk-food in the world and does not follow a large number of the food and drug safety guidelines set up in other countries Take for example: dyes. Quite a few of them are mildly toxic
You say that, but EU and South Korea are still absolutely huge in terms of fast food consumption. I'm willing to bet that this isn't the leading reason, or even one of them, since houses (where pros fairly often are) often cook their own food to my memory, and encourage exercise among the people living there for their physical health.
Śhunpo (OCE)
: It wasn't like this when it first came out, and for the 2 weeks that followed.
It was definitely like this the first year. Maybe you got lucky and didn't see it, but I distinctly remember the pre-ban days featuring Fizz, Vlad, Evelynn, Shaco, Wukong, Lux and Hecarim pretty much every single game. The goal of players in URF, a fun game-mode, has always been to make sure your enemy team doesn't get to have any fun at all.
: > [{quoted}](name=FkValeRly,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPQaxAGB,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-01T16:38:37.234+0000) > > you fucking what? > > dragon is very easy to kill tho you have eyes and went to school so i am assuming you can read. everyone has the same number of items come late game because if you get the items from creeps early on, you don't get them later on unless your match got bugged which is possible but unlikely still even given the beta testing status of the game, all other pick ups are from the carousel, ergo everyone in the late game has the same number of items. i mention the drake because not all the comps i've ran have been able to beat drake and on one instance my drake dropped 3 items because i had no items, which shouldn't be the case. the wolves, krugs, toucans, minions, if one doesn't beat those then they misplayed, infernal drake is a stat check though that's the point, it's there to break win streaks of dumb comps like my lvl 1 yordle comp that was stomping everyone until that drake took my fire and gave it to everyone else. and drake isn't easy to kill with it's splash damage lol it can wipe your team regardless of what positioning tricks you use and how many levels you have if your comp isn't suited to take it on, ergo i now consider the drake battles in all games of tft, but the drake should not make or break my team comp and it's item set, the other minions can do that because they aren't a stat check they're a skill check on the part of the player, or an awareness check if need be.
I've seen my brother play TFT, and there have been times where he'll get to the dragon phase with only items from the carousel because mobs didn't drop a single thing the entire time while enemies run around with multiple completed items. Item RNG is absolutely a thing you can be shafted by, and it doesn't appear to be a bug, it appears to be a baseline feature of the item RNG. The game is already riddled with RNG, at least give the players some guaranteed result from the mob phases. As it is now, it is entirely possible for you to win and get absolutely nothing going forward, putting you at a potential immediate disadvantage because you got nothing. At least if you were guaranteed the 1 item you could try to salvage something out of the phase.
: You and everyone who says this is full of shit. You know how I know that? Bc 90% of the people who said shit like this whined their ever loving asses off when Zoe was meta.
"skillshots are better than targeted!" _meanwhile, in the time machine of whinging past_ "Zoe is trash design" "Lee Sin is braindead easy to play" "Vel'koz does way too much damage" "Lux needs range reduced" or "Lux needs damage nerfs" or "Lux needs mana costs increased" And so on. As it turns out, skillshots are just another "pick your poison" deal. Yeah, they give you a chance to dodge... but that one time you couldn't dodge it you're punished much harder. Implement something like disjoint and make it more readily available and oh, would you look at that, targeted suddenly wouldn't be so terrible and you still have counterplay options. But nah, better instead keep infinite mobility and skillshots flying around like Touhou instead.
Ifneth (NA)
: That’s a really good idea. Deny the enemy the sound warnings of abilities like Kled Ult.
I like the idea, it reminds me of Silencer's ult from DotA2. "Silence!" and then you hear a vague wooshing sound for the duration of the ult, while everything else is muted. Silencer doesn't just silence you, he silences the whole damn game. It's incredible for the character fantasy. I could see Nocturne doing similar here, to create that sense of paranoia along with lowered vision: can't hear your predators, can't see your allies, you're all alone.
fifek900 (EUNE)
: Rumble is a tank tho.| the other two not so much
Don't lie about my boy. Rumble is NOT a tank. Build him as a tank and you're setting yourself up for failure. He has a shield, but that shield isn't particularly bulky, and that's his only source of mitigation. This leaves with his Q, which deals damage; his E, which deals damage and a slow; and his ult, which deals damage and a slow. He's not a tank. He can't take a hit well enough, nor does he CC enough.
: Lol, not sure how 33 +40% is a ton, it's hardly any honestly. You get more pen from BC LW than u do from all 3 magic items.
Coming from the perspective of a DotA2 player, that's a shitload. You're invalidating 40% of their past and future purchased defenses with a single item, forever, and their base magic resist on top of that. And that's only one item. That is ludicrous from my perspective where the only way to do similar is to play heroes specifically built around reducing people's defenses, and even then it won't be that level of effective most of the time against someone actually building defensively. Plus the armor-reducing stuff is generally effective for everybody on the team, but only specific heroes want to buy any of the items that actually do that, so sometimes you'll run a team that simply has no armor pen options. Here you have no reason _not_ to buy those items since they synergize so well with the concept of doing damage, and being passive stat sticks competing only against other passive stat sticks makes it even easier to pick up League's pen items without feeling any real consequence. You're not sacrificing any sort of utility by doing that, because almost none of the items have utility beyond "passively increase damage, and maybe sometimes increase tankiness at the same time." League is incredibly skewed toward offense, and there really are not a ton of defensive utilities to go around. From my perspective, every fight in this game looks like Rocket Tag because defenses mean so little. The fact that 33 + 40% magic pen doesn't look like much is absolutely bonkers. That's a lot. 57 Lethality + 35% armor pen + 24% armor shred is just plain stupid. Even if we assume a non-fully stacked BC, the potential of 57 Lethality + 35% armor pen is stupid enough as is. Going off that Talon build Antenora listed below, just the BC + Duskblade + Youmuu's + LW upgrade is silly amounts of pen. Your target gets to have so little protection. This just feels terrible all around, except maybe to the person building all that pen.
: you said i failed a point and click spell, while you totally ignored the problem lol. if you e a minion wave for example and your e bounces right to the minions behind, it is outside of your w trigger range. understand? bird cant hit succ person if bird flies out of range before u succ. which sometimes happen.
This happens for every ability that can bounce. Literally every single one. Ever play Thrall in Heroes of the Storm? Now _that's_ a frustrating bounce. Fiddle has nothing on that. Fiddle's E is pretty damn consistent as far as bouncing abilities in games go.
: You´d accuse a medieval isolationist noble of being sensible by our standards?{{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} In China there were ladies who used poisonous makeup because it made them look better.....even though they knew they´d die for it. (Very slow acting so not like instant death but more like shaving off the lifespan) Vikings thought sacrificing a pig would make the fields fertile. A certain Spanish explorer thought he found india when sailing in the opposite direction and not finding the stuff that was supposed to be there, it took them like 10 years to be sure they really had gotten the wrong place. Western noblewomen at some times thought corsets were a good idea....even at a risk of injury and/or fainting due to being unable to breathe properly while wearing them. Polish commanders during WW2 tried to stop german tanks with cavalry. Humans stuck on traditions and ceremony are rarely sensible, and Demacia is pretty much the textbook example of this, Ionia is a close second. .
You weren't done with China yet: yeah, they had poisonous make-up, but they also had Lotus Shoes which were to be worn by women undergoing foot binding, and the result of that was serious deformation of entire feet to wear them (to the point that every toe except the biggest one would be wrapped into the rest of your feet side-ways) because they simply do not anatomically work with humans, but was considered beautiful. Old traditions have a tendency to look really bad by modern standards when you take a step back out of that culture.
: Fid and Noc at least have unique aspects of their kits compared to Shyvana and Valibear who are both still suffering from GFS "generic fighter syndrome".
After playing the other MOBAs, I'm not sure what exactly is so bad about revolving around an ult a lot? Sometimes the ult is really what makes your kit, and sometimes it isn't. Evening out the power so everyone has roughly equal balance in the abilities of your kit just seems like it would make the game really... bland, to me. Nobody would really have this moment of "his ult is up we'd better be careful/he used his ult, now he's weak, go in and punish him" sine graph of power. Sometimes, revolving around your ult really is the thing that makes your kit unique and interesting. Flat-lining the power curve of heroes and champions is straight-up boring to play. And realistically, Noct being reliant on his R sounds about like what I'd expect from this game's Spectre expy and his lore.
4th3t0s (NA)
: Tbh, he was absolutely trash-tier in the short time (early season 2?) he couldn't ult while CC'd. Then again, that was probably just another example of Morello being ahead of the curve on balance.
Morello was living proof you could be Silver and still balance the game really well. He may not have had the mechanical skill to do well on the ladder, but he definitely had the knowledge of the game required for his job. It's weird though, that people complained about him so much when I played, but when he left people almost immediately wanted him back again.
Terozu (NA)
: ... This is the best possible unless using 2D graphics. Passing through minions is just bs.
Don't Thresh's hook and Blitz's grab lollipop at the end to cause this? I can tell you for a fact that Pudge's hook in DotA2 isn't grabbing me past minions like either of those two. That skillshot is a pure line: it either hits you or it doesn't, no fiddly extra reach involved.
: Tahm is riots most loathed champ, he stops plays and riot detests him for it so they repeatedly slash his tendons with nerfs in the hopes that he will sink to a sub 1% pick rate. Hes my main support because hes the only one that ive learned and nearly perfected to the point where i can counter most dive heavy comps from coming for my marksmens throat, now they have taken him out back with a shotgun. Funny how a sub 45% win rate is getting nerfed but {{champion:92}} {{champion:67}} arent over some imaginary threshold. What a joke.
Guessing he's hated by Riot for about the same reason that they hate champions like Kalista and Azir: once they're strong, they crowd out picks like nobody else can because they do exactly what their job requires well, and then some, and that really is the reality of that situation. Kalista even holds the dubious distinction of being hated not only by Riot, but by players as well. In fact, in my experience, people that don't play Tahm also despise Tahm for the same reason they hate Kalista: they shut down plays with very little real effort on their part. It's not really any different than Medivh in Heroes of the Storm. You bring a lot of value, for not a whole lot of difficulty in execution. The difficulty of all 4 heroes mentioned (Tahm, Kalista, Azir, Medivh) is in coordination, not execution, but the possible reward you reap is enormous if you're allowed to be particularly strong (See: Azir bullying everyone out of mid in his hey-day and then major teamfight set-up initiations, Kalista bullying everyone out of bot in her hey-day while making it nigh-impossible to snipe objectives from her team, Medivh's huge presence in the burst-centric Heroes of the Storm meta, Tahm reaching high pro pick rates if he's strong for his ability to effortlessly bail out a focus target).
: > [{quoted}](name=BeatzBoyFTW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fNFNZwE8,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2019-05-03T15:22:52.432+0000) > > He has always been viable at top. It's just that people **don't want** to even try playing him there. He has always been outclassed top. It isn't that people don't want to try him there, he just couldn't stand up to the majority of top laners.
That assumes a bar of competence. You should see what a Tahm Kench can do to a top laner that gets even slightly cocky, especially in lower ranks that won't have the ability to mechanically punish him regardless (and if some people want pub play to matter in balance as much as pro play or more, you have to account for them, so you can't brush it off...).
Naalith (NA)
: If a champion is really that insane in pro play to the point where they are worthless for 99% of the playerbase, they should just be turned off in pro. I'm serious. Riot banned funnel strategy and a couple other degenerate strategies from pro play over the years even before the strategy had in-game nerfs. Back in the day it was just Azir and Ryze. Now it seems like every month a champion is getting shit on because of pro play and it honestly makes the game feel shallow.
The game feels shallow because pro play is taking champions to their absolute limits and they get nerfed for it? If anything, that sounds like the game is still deep enough that pros can make a hero stand out among the crowd. Shallow to me is dumbing everything down and balancing around the lowest common denominator. Why would you not balance around the people who know, and play, the game the best of anyone in the world, exactly? Especially when the game in question is PvP-oriented. Imagine if Invoker in DotA2 was balanced around pub play. He'd be a nightmare for everyone involved, because he has a high skillcap, high burden of knowledge, and has a lot of skill expression. So imagine then, he's good for 3k MMR, and a 5k MMR player picks him up, or he's seen in pro play. He'd be an absolute monster.
Leetri (EUW)
: The boards would have an aneurysm if Riot balanced around the average player, since then they'd balance the entire game around Bronze/Silver.
You kidding? That would be hilarious. Then you'd have all sorts of people that have to deal with the consequences of what they say they want. It'll be the perfect lesson in "People have no idea what they want." Imagine the complete and insurmountable dominance Azir would be allowed to have in higher ranks, or god forbid pro play (if pros didn't abandon ship after hearing about that particular priority shift), if they balanced around Bronze/Silver.
Dr Dog (NA)
: ***
I've checked most of my friend's promo games, since I don't play anymore, and they get matched closer to their own rank more often than they don't even in promos. They may get higher enemies than average (you're expected to go up against that caliber of player if you win, after all), but not much else really happens to them. Most often they lose on their own merits or from throws that could happen in any game, not just promos, and there's nothing in the world that matchmaking can do to prevent either of those. The promo horror stories just stick out more because there's actually something riding on them. From my friends that don't post on forums, they're otherwise no different than any other game.
: > [{quoted}](name=MaddMan,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmI103ve,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-25T01:34:02.983+0000) > > Im **useless** when i got 2-1-4, but ive ganked and kept their jungler outa their lane for them all early game, stole buffs, gotten every single dragon, most turret damage, and most wards/wards destroyed. > > Bonus points when they tell me I never group, when i stopped their split pushing Yi who has Hydra, Shiv, Phantom Dancer, Berserker boots, IE, Blood razor and is destroying our waves, then got a tower myself. Jungler mains are gods of the games that are dragged by their flamer and terrible teammates, you all should be Challenger. I get the message.
> [{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmI103ve,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-25T14:44:06.515+0000) > > Jungler mains are gods of the games that are dragged by their flamer and terrible teammates, you all should be Challenger. > > I get the message. Considering how unlikely it is to stop a Yi with that build solo if he doesn't feel like being stopped, that's the message I'm getting. I'm all for saying "I'm not useless" but this is like the Mary Sue of jungler stories.
: > [{quoted}](name=ChrisBrownze,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=Zk8YE1yg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-24T07:56:43.373+0000) > > Dogshit company, only goal is skin sales. > > They make pretty good music videos though Gold player big surprise, why even play the game much less go to the boards if you just complain mate
Bruh, you're low diamond, one of the most maligned ranks in the entire game thanks to rampant boosting that ends at about where you are. Also bringing up rank in a comment that had nothing at all to do with that just makes you look like an elitist, which is freaking hilarious in a _video game._
: > [{quoted}](name=Boltonator,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tu0VzhdE,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-02-13T02:20:42.922+0000) > > I will still continue to garner enjoyment out of playing Support, so long as I feel like I am able to fully utilize the kit my champion has. The hardcore support players will undoubtedly continue to push through the nerf bat as well... > > Now if they decide to revert Supports back to walking ward droppers and remove any incentive to spend gold to enhance their abilities then you would see a noticeable drop off. I played during S1 and I absolutely hated playing support when half of my item slots were wards. The point of support is to support your team. Riot has done everything to make it everything but that. {{champion:40}} Now has more damage. Less movement speed to catch up with allies and a worser version of a shield including item nerfs. Feels like she has to un-counter herself like Soraka. She used to have a 56% winrate. Now she's lower. Good... IF SHE WORKED THE WAY SHE WAS INTENDED TO BE PLAYED. {{champion:90}} is kinda useless now. Sorry not sorry. He used to be able to block skill shots with his W. He actually had a useful ult and now you need one button to make his only cc completely useless. He can't even do jungle properly and doesn't even really have a lane anymore. Good job rito? {{champion:16}} basically (not entirely) maxes her E first during laning phase cause fuck healing apparently unless it's to un-counter yourself. It's almost as if she was meant to heal and not do damage. But hey she is doing something right. **DOING MORE DAMAGE TO HERSELF. ** {{champion:26}} is barely even seen. {{champion:63}} is considered a support by many because clearly he and {{champion:161}} should be bot-lane and be considered **traditional supports** (lul). **God forbid Jungle and Support provide vision on A HUGE MAP in which a stealthed champion can ONE SHOT YOU. Now that would be a terrible idea.**
As a bold technicality, Brand and Vel'koz _are_ traditional supports. It's just that they're traditional supports for a different kind of game. They're DotA-style supports that can roam around and set-up kills with their own CC/damage, and then have a teamfight presence despite their lower gold income later due to any of good scaling, CC, or battlefield control rather than their ability to directly keep teammates alive. That's pretty traditional as far as supports in MOBAs go. My biggest gripe is that League even makes explicit support heroes to begin with: that's contrived, limits their design scope, and forces them into a specific role/location on the map for no reason other than because Riot says so, and any attempts to leave are met with immediate nerfs. There's no organic growth into a role, there's just a place that Word of God says they're going, so they go because they must. Also, because carry items are both slot efficient _and_ gold efficient you run into a huge problem when you make support items too efficient because then they become enticing to carries at the same time. This really hits supports hard because their items can't be too efficient or they have to be specifically designed to help their team instead of themselves or help to kill an enemy directly or you risk a carry grabbing it again. Support items have to be gold efficient by necessity, but they don't necessarily have to be slot efficient. Carries should need slot efficient items, supports need gold efficient items; League screwed up by giving every role both slot and gold efficient items, so the breaking point of "is it worth for me" is how efficient it is for the slot of your particular role. League kind of designed themselves into a corner on that one. This nerf is just the latest victim of that incredibly dumb philosophy. Also, I have still yet to learn why League players are so entitled to vision when they have the most of any MOBA still. The map doesn't need to be lit up like a Christmas tree or there is absolutely no room for a surprise factor by the enemy team, and if the enemy team is behind and has no chance for surprise factor, how do you suppose they'd stage a comeback? That was the problem in Seasons 1-3 when vision was ubiquitous: when a team pulled ahead, they had a huge vision advantage through both map control and increased income via winning in the first place, so losing was significantly harder from that point on.
: It's because if something is OP in low elo it's just because you're playing bad, you can play better and not have that problem. When something is OP in pro, it's actually OP and needs to be toned down.
This is the DotA2 approach. Something is OP in lower ranks? Then odds are great there's an answer, you just need to find it and apply it. If something is OP is pro play, odds are great that the people who are paid to play the game at its highest possible skill level have tried to find an answer and simply can't, so it should be toned down. The corollary to this is if something is never used in pro play, it should be buffed up to par. It's basically the MOBA's answer to Dark Souls philosophy of "git gud." Why should the balance team balance around people that can't even play the game properly, let alone optimally? They aren't really "balancing" at that point so much as making a safe environment for people slapping each other with rubber squeak-mallets and aimlessly plodding around the map acting like they're doing effective macro. Trust me, I should know, I was one of those players. The last thing in the world I want for a game that wants its competitive scene to be taken seriously is to listen to Bronze-Gold players. It sucks to come to terms with that, but it's true. I don't want Street Fighter balanced around my terrible playing, nor would I want a MOBA balanced around that, nor would I want a game's hardest difficulty settings toned down because I can't do them. You should have an incentive to get better, and knowing that something (almost) always has an answer when you play the game better or know more about the game is a huge incentive for a competitive community, that way while you complain (no one is saying you can't), you're thinking of answers to it instead of running to the balance team to fix it for you.
: They're reworking {{champion:82}} ? why? Shouldn't they rework champs that actually need to be like {{champion:142}} {{champion:429}}?
You mean they can't rework Morde _and_ Kalista? It's a one or the other deal? That sounds odd and inaccurate.
: Assassins could exist, the problem is that the pieces of the game that need to exist for them to be balanced don't in nearly enough. Mobility is still unaddressed, because riot doesn't want to introduce more grounded effects for arbitrary reasons. Burst also has no real countermeasure, as the only thing in the game which actively mitigates the natural advantage of burst damage patterns is {{item:3812}}
Actual unpopular opinion coming through: Every single ability scaling is a mistake. Am I saying there should be no scaling abilities? Absolutely not. But not every ability needs to scale. Damage vs. Tankiness is this game is a never-ending arms race of absurd proportions due to the idea that everything has to scale. Hell, we have offensive scaling on abilities as a result of defensive stats due to that damage arms race. That's just stupid.
: Yeah right, you are talking like absolute dog shit zed can do that. Difference between dog shit zed that goes 0 12 and dog shit tank that goes 0 49, tank will be more usefull anyway.
On the other hand, 3 seconds of CC and possibly living anyway due to team intervention, or 40 seconds of grey screen after instant death nobody could save you from. I don't know, I can see both sides. Tanks and their CC are a necessary evil, though, to mitigate some of the insane damage people can put out. If anything, my biggest complaint in League is that there isn't much of an answer to CC at all. There's no BKB or Magic Immunity like DotA has, there's no Cleanse outside of a couple specific items and a summoner spell like HotS has for a lot of support talents (and due to bizarre balance decisions, they're not even items/summoner spell everyone can pick up without throwing an enemy an advantage). This game has abundant CC and almost no real answer to it besides not to get caught in the first place but it also has an absolutely enormous damage inflation problem.
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