Moon Mom (NA)
: Does anyone not realize riot did actively try with treeline..? They reworked the map and it still had a low population. No one's playing it hardly so if the numbers are lower than nexus blitz then, of course, it's going to get canceled.
> [{quoted}](name=Moon Mom,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=v2AhIFl4,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-08-02T16:26:47.103+0000) > > Does anyone not realize riot did actively try with treeline..? They reworked the map and it still had a low population. No one's playing it hardly so if the numbers are lower than nexus blitz then, of course, it's going to get canceled. They reworked it 7 years ago :/ They've basically done nothing since. In fact, as I state in the post, the rework probably did more to push players away from the map if anything.
: here is my grief with the TT folks. at least tell me your map has a real competitive scene made by the players. at least show everyone else that you are serious about the mode as a competitive mode. dominion had a pro scene, forget a high elo scene, and it was retired. i cant find anything akin to what dom had in relation to TT and don't tell me there aren't players for it cause the same thing was leveled at dom but it had a scene.
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=v2AhIFl4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-02T13:52:08.344+0000) > > here is my grief with the TT folks. > at least tell me your map has a real competitive scene made by the players. > at least show everyone else that you are serious about the mode as a competitive mode. > dominion had a pro scene, forget a high elo scene, and it was retired. > i cant find anything akin to what dom had in relation to TT and don't tell me there aren't players for it cause the same thing was leveled at dom but it had a scene. We try to host tournaments semi-regularly, and we don't have as much of a need for creating a pro scene since we already have a ranked ladder where the top teams play against each other very regularly.
Comentários de Rioters
: Not from my team specifically. I believe there was talk about doing a quality of life pass on TT that Meddler has been looking into, not sure where that's at currently.
Any sort of transparency here, even preliminary, would be extremely appreciated.
Meddler (NA)
: Grabbing this comment to say thanks for the feedback on TT both to you Leaves and others posting elsewhere in the thread. Just reading it for now, appreciate the detailed breakdowns of rationale especially. Will share thoughts once we've got a proposed plan.
Hey Meddler, I'd love to be able to address some of the specific points that people in favor of the nerf are making. I think they're getting addressed in some of the longer posts from myself and others, but are overlooked by a lot of commenters. If you have any specific points you'd like Pro-Funneling players to address, let us know please!
Kejorn (NA)
: Hey Meddler, I am a challenger 3v3 player on NA ever since 3v3 became a flex queue (God bless you guys for that by the way) with roughly 800+ games last season in 3v3 and currently 600-700 this season (you can op.gg this account to see) and I've been hovering around 700 LP (rank 6ish) for the past few weeks but took a huge hit in the past few days unfortunately. Anyway, I am personally pro support meta as I believe it makes the game mode insanely more skill oriented due to the proper rotations and macroplay you see optimized in high elo 3v3 games. It makes bot lane a significantly more skill based lane as you dont have to sit under tower all game to avoid jungle ganks from over mid wall or from behind wolf camp wall. It allows mages to play aggressive and play for solo kills and to deny cs. It also allows bot lane to impact the top lane 2v2 in support meta much more successfully because good bot lane roams often decide a game that could be favored in the opposite direction (say you hace xin zhao hyper into darius hyper, typically a poor matchup for xin zhao due to darius' early kill pressure in lane with his hook, if xin zhaos bot laner gains pressure bot and makes a successful roam top to kill darius? Boom snowballing xinzhao, and xin's morgana or whomever just won them the game, they get free altar, jungle camps, and now xin is miles ahead of darius.) Well that's mainly from the bot laner's perspective. How about from carry and support perspective. Well of course the support role allows support only players to play 3s which is good (I personally have a diehard support main friend who insists that he should be able to play thresh in 3s against all advice). But in terms of the hyper support 2v2 lane, there is still interaction in the lane as one team tries to gain pressure over the other team, with one good trade it allows the stronger duo to invade and take camps and altar for free. Often times the weaker duo will try to contest the jungle camps or altar if theyre in a position to do so. Already we're seeing significantly interaction in both lanes as well in the jungle that a lot of the nontwisted treeline players seem to voice about. Now lets talk about jungle meta. Having a jungler in 3v3 saps alot of the fun out of the game. This is because of how ridiculously easy it is to gank these lanes wuth certain champions. I played some jungle meta yesterday when I played solo queue (big mistake, I know) so I was forced into top lane and I was playing against a kayn jungle. I was playing renekton into aatrox top lane (fun champ by the way, nearly one shotting me at level 1) and when I tell you every single time I dashed in to trade with aatrox that kayns little E bubble showed up under me, I'm not exaggerating. This man had nothing better to do with his time than use his E off cooldown to come top lane and often times just sat in the lane with nothing better to do. And I've played a fair amount of jungle meta and against it as well. This is common. A common strategy when Ivern was popular was to take relic shield at the start with jungle item and then in between each clear just walk into your lanes and heal them with relic shield. Literally because he had nothing else to do. Most games with jungle meta just come down to which jungler decides to face check the enemy bush in mid and get nuked first, or just troll in one of your lanes until camps are up. Of the like 4 or 5 jungle meta games i played yesterday alone, at least 4 of those games first blood was decided by my jungler randomly walking into the enemy mid bush for no reason and getting instantly collapsed on by bot and top and just dying. In my opinion, the only way to make jungle meta truly fun and interactive is to change the map and make it a little bigger. Knowing riot would probably rather dumpster the map altogether, I'll give you my thoughts on the changes that have been proposed. I think these changes will even out support metas early game vs jungle meta and will give the significant vulnerability in the early game. It may even suffice to say that this will make support comp nearly unplayable versus any aggressive top and jungle duo. I also believe this will make certain champions that need to rush tiamat for clear speed significantly worse than those that rush jungle enchantments which signiciantly lowers champion diversity and build diversity. For example, xin zhao who needs tiamat first back now gains significantly less gold than darius who doesnt build tiamat, but rather rushes warrior or cinderhulk. Or Kayle for example who needs to rush nashors tooth for cdr is now completely gimped out of viability in favor of lucian who rusbes warrior or bloodrazor. Ironically champions that are already obscenely more powerful picks are just getting buffed even harder because of these changes. Already dominant hypers like darius, olaf, lucian, illaoi who you see picked or banned every game more or less are now significantly stronger than those that rush other items like mordekaiser with rylais rush, xin with tiamat, kayle with nashors etc. This change may make support meta early game more abusable but it completely destroys champion diversity in the hypercarry role and it may just destroy support comp altogether, which is sad. Other people have suggested many other changes to more evenly nerf support comp and rewards early jungle pressure, but at this point I personally don't feel like support meta is significantly stronger than jungle meta and it wont take much at all to push the mode into complete jungle meta dominance. And I think this change will do it.
Leaves (NA)
: Good morning, Meddler. In regards to twisted treeline gold funneling (known there as support meta): last season I was Challenger in NA 3s for most of the season (Feb - Aug, and Oct). I played over 500 games of the game mode throughout last year, but hardly any before that. I am by no means anywhere close to being one of the best at 3s, and I do not play it much currently (mainly due to hating support comp), but I feel like some higher elo input might be helpful on this matter. I mainly played bot lane (which is basically mid lane in summoners rift), but I also played probably 50-80 games as the support in gold funneling strats. After you hit diamond in 3s, it's like flicking on a switch and the entire meta changes. Up until then you almost exclusively see jungle meta with picks sucks as kayn, reksai, and Zac being common choices due to their ability to affect both lanes easily from many angles. At this elo both metas are considered equally good, since players are not yet coordinated enough to make full use of support meta's advantages. After diamond, though, you almost exclusively run into support comp picks, partially because you'll see a lot of the Challenger players smurfing in this elo. Having such a hard meta shift based on elo, much more severe than any seen on summoners rift, seems pretty bad for the 3s community since the way the game is played fundamentally changes based on what your rank is, meaning players hoping to get into high elo will have to basically throw away everything they've practiced and learned up until this point. When high elo players explain 3s strategies (such as in the 3s Bible by Divine), you'll usually see them refer to 3 different possible matchups: jungle vs jungle, jungle vs support, and support vs support. Support vs support is by far the least fun of the 3 options, as due to the nature of gold funneling, one lost fight basically decides a game with little to no means of comeback, since the winning team will invade and take all jungle camps of the losing team, starving the losing side of any means of income. As someone who has played with, as, and against support comps, it feels very bad knowing that a game can be decided not only by one lost fight but also by which carry is the most efficient at farming. Support vs jungle is similarly frustrating to play, mainly from the jungle side. This matchup feels like a race against time, as many of the funnel carries played in 3s are ones that can easily 1v3 with a lead (master yi, Kayle, Darius, yasuo, etc). This matchup puts the pressure on the jungler to be extremely aggressive, as even a moderate lead (3-5k gold) against support comp is not enough to guarantee a win. You can see this in the winrates of champions on the map-- champions only played in support comps can and frequently rise to over 60% winrates overall (such as Kayle and Taric), because the very nature of their strategy means they get to circumvent the usual interaction with other players that would otherwise keep their weak early games in check. The final matchup, jungle vs jungle, is also very snowbally, but doesn't rely on a single person's performance as much as the other two matchups. A game can be won by a bot laner instead of only a jungler or hypercarry, which means bot lane can play more aggressive picks and be rewarded for gaining leads, whereas in support comp you'll frequently see players encouraged to pick passive utility champions like Morgana, Veigar, and Karma (although not exclusively). From the bot lane perspective, having a jungler on one or both teams makes the game more interesting-- bot lane in 3s is much like top lane on Summoners Rift, in that when both teams are running support comp you are frequently just left to your own devices and are rarely in any position of agency over the outcome of the game. Even if you gain a lead over the other bot laner, it doesn't matter if the enemy Yi and Taric have steamrolled your teammates. I personally would like to see the jungle item changes implemented in twisted treeline. I don't think the ones currently live on Summoners Rift will kill the strategy in any way, mainly because people are stubborn. Those who are good at support meta will continue to do it, and I think this nerf (reducing lane gold when you have the most gold and a jungle item) will merely slow down support comp instead of killing it. Unlike summoners rift funneling, most hyper carries (with the exception of a couple, like Mordekaiser) on Twisted Treeline will rush their completed tier 3 jungle item, so this nerf will only effect their income up until that point, since it only applies to tiers 1 and 2. Slowing down their first item purchase will give jungle comp teams a larger window to impact a support comp at their weakest stage, which will make support vs jungle more of a skill matchup instead of a race against the clock. It'll also have the benefit of slowing down support vs support games, which in my experience have been very volatile and quick games depending on the matchup. Support comp does NOT need to be flat out removed, as it does actually help out quite a lot with overall champion diversity when it isn't crowding out jungle meta. Right now the balance is not even though, support comp is considered so much better in high elo that you're basically guaranteed a loss in a match with 2 even teams if you play vs a support comp team. If support comp can be reigned back in a bit with a nerf like this, then you might actually see a jungler more than once every 30 games in Challenger.
Leaves, I do have to say that your idea of Support Meta in high elo is a bit outdated. You only have the NA perspective from last season, and you haven't experienced the Challenger v. Challenger matchups in a more modern meta. Things have adapted dramatically, with both teams fully understanding their roles and their win conditions. Support vs. Support has become very nuanced, and things like Kayle or Yi are beginning to be entirely shoved out of the meta because they fold to adeptly applied pressure. I understand your perspective in the context of last season, but I don't think your objections adequately apply to current high elo support meta.
: I am 100 percent for gutting support comp, it has kept games unwinnable for far too long. I shouldn't have to solo q into 3 mans abusing support comp. As a diamond player for 4 seasons in a row, this meta has been total trash and not fun for anyone playing it. Please nerf Support comp as much as possible so people have the chance to solo q and win games. Thank you, Also i love you blings - Gemma
Hey Gemma - I think your problem is more about going solo in a Flex Q. Yes, support meta isn't helping your problem, but you should go into games expecting to lose if you're solo against a premade. That's just how this queue works.
: Hello! Challenger 3's player here. (Although I've been in Korea for the past month so my rank may have fluctuated a bit.) I've climbed the Twisted Treeline ladder for the past 600 games, peaking Challenger 400 LP in NA by exclusively solo queue. I would occasionally (very rarely) attempt support comp with insurmountable success. Even during games when incredibly behind, support items are too gold efficient and you can simply farm to catch up incredibly quickly. This makes support comp incredibly oppressive with very little leg room to mess up. Most Challengers in Twisted Treeline indeed use supp comp, often times going as far as using hyper support comps, by putting a utility mage bottom lane, which will offer even more benefits to the hyper carry while also having an extremely easy laning phase (Morgana, Karma, etc). They may tell you that jungle vs support is an equal playing field, but don't be mistaken, they are top rank players, and they want to stay there. The rank 1, 2, and 3 being the most dominant and oppressive trio queue support comp users in the game, and they will comfortably tell you that the meta is in a good spot. While I don't think support comp should be killed outright, it definitely does not need to be in such a strong spot as it is right now. I think jungle comps should have an equal chance of winning as support comps do. Right now, the only way to hit the top ranks is to trio hyper support comp, but I think that's not right. Please give us solo queue players a chance to hit the top ranks. Thanks :D
Roman doesn't play with Whatcd and Movement. Also, it sounds like your problem is playing solo versus premades. It turns out, having voice at your disposal dramatically increases your chances of winning - as does having a history of synergy between players. Your issue is playing solo in a flex queue, friend. The Support Meta might exacerbate your problem, but it doesn't cause it.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 18
Heya Meddler! My IGN is [Auve](http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=auve) and as of this comment I have almost 2500 normals played in 3v3 and over 1000 3v3 Ranked games over the seasons stretching back to Season 3. More than just being a fun map for me, it's sort of become the main way I enjoy League of Legends these days. The small, quick fights early on in the game remind me of old RPG games I played when I was much younger. Contrary to what I see a lot of people commenting, I actually prefer TT because of more interactions both with lane opponents and with the enemy team earlier on in the game. I also write guides for TT and help to organize a Tier List for newer players coming to learn about the map (which can be found [here](http://3v3.gg/) ). And yes, I play support meta and I would like to stand **opposed** to the SR funneling changes being introduced to TT. In my view, these changes would not remove support meta from 3's but would cause it to mutate into something else that is far more passive but nonetheless just as strong - ignoring the early purchase of jungle items. This isn't an option in 5's where jungle items are exceedingly important in clearing the jungle, but they aren't necessary with lane/camps so close together in TT. The fundamental issue of funneling can be addressed in 5's, but it fails to apply the same way in 3's because the map is so small. Funneling is a natural response to having so much gold/experience in close proximity to the lanes. The following are my contentions in the defense of support meta as it exists currently: 1. **Interactivity** - Contrary to popular belief, the interactivity of Support Meta is gravely misunderstood. Jungle Meta teams frequently find themselves playing against a passive Support Meta team. Rather than taking the initiative to make proactive invades to shut down the gold resources of the enemy Support Meta, the Jungle Meta team becomes frustrated that _the other team isn't interested in fighting them._ But how strange! If there is a kill lane in Summoner's Rift like Darius/Jarvan, why would the Adc + Support in bot lane try to fight them? Wouldn't you expect the ADC to farm slowly until they are able to win that fight? It's the exact same way in TT - Jungle Meta teams naturally have an early advantage because both the top and jungle have access to gold and experience. The problem isn't with Jungle vs. Support meta here, it's actually in Pressure vs. Scaling. You see this exact same interaction in Support Meta vs. Support Meta! A Support Meta team with aggressive picks like Renekton/Leona is going to have to be very proactive in invading a comp such as Yi/Taric. One team dramatically outscales the other - it's only common sense that you will need to use your early advantage to shut down their scaling. Games where this is understood tend to be very interactive with one team invading the enemy jungle and the other defending every jungle camp they can. 2. **Evolving Opinions** - last year when I began learning how to play Support Meta, the community in NA was almost entirely against it. Getting flamed in all chat during each game was common - even from your own teammates (not unlike how playing funneling meta in SR was this year). However, as understanding of the map has evolved and more and more players have found guides or discord channels to ask their questions, the opinion on the meta among TT players is shifting. When people learn how to play the meta and understand its strengths/weaknesses, they see how the macro strategy and lane interactions are different than Jungle Meta but nonetheless skillful. I help to run a discord channel focused on 3v3, and we have a fairly large base of players who are constantly asking questions about how to play as/against support meta. We help people find groups to play with, give them build order for very specific sets of hypercarry champions, and provide education for how to integrate this meta into the Twisted Treeline. 3. **The Jungle Meta Problem** - nevertheless, I cannot ignore the elephant in the room. Even taking into account strong Jungle Meta players who understand Support Meta and how to counter it, there is an advantage in favor of Support Meta. In Challenger TT across all regions, Jungle Meta is woefully under represented. I believe this is because of a lack of early objectives for Jungle Meta to take advantage of. While Support Meta gets to rotate between camps and top lane, TT Junglers only have 3 quick camps to clear and a lot of downtime. Ideally they would be able to keep up invades against Support Meta teams, but the reality is that even if the Jungle team get multiple aces the Support team loses so little and will continue to scale. I realize that devoting resources to add more camps or a monster buff would be too much for Riot at this time. So I have some suggestions that would **increase** Jungle Meta's early objective strength while being fairly low resource changes. . -**Add First Turret Gold** - This is very needed, since good Jungle Meta teams frequently get the first turret against Support Meta. This would reward them a little bit for doing that. I don't believe there is much danger of this buffing Support Meta since they take much longer to come online than Jungle Meta. Likewise, I don't think this makes the quality of Jungle v. Jungle worse, since that matchup is largely snowball based anyways. . -**Increase Early Death Timers** - one of the defenses Support Meta has at its disposal are very quick early death timers. They can be faster than recalling in some instances. This definitely needs to change - Junglers should be rewarded by clearing the enemy jungle after an ace, not barely starting one camp before the enemy hyper is back alive. . -**Reduce Vile'maw Spawn Timer** - giving a 3 man Jungle team the opportunity to clear Vile'maw earlier in the game following an ace would help them open up the map and give them an easier path to victory. Vile'maw has stats that scale down with game-time and a somewhat complicated "Boss Fight" that, when mastered, would allow teams as early as after their first item to clear him with no problem (I think 5:00 would be an acceptable spawn for him rather than 10:00). . Notice that all of these changes give initiative to the Jungle Meta team and reward early fighting / proactivity. I think these are the types of changes that should be added to balance Jungle v. Support, rather than a heavy handed band-aid solution created for 5v5. 4. **Heavy Handed Band-Aid Solution** - probably the most common response I saw in discord when our community learned that the Funneling Changes might be implemented for 3's was that it wouldn't address the problem and it didn't feel like it was for **us**. It wasn't a 3v3 change, it was a 5v5 one that would be slapped on without consideration of how Funneling works differently on each map. I'm happy to see Meddler polling _our_ community rather than the voices of 5v5 against Funneling, but also consider that a different map might require different types of changes. At the very least, wait until Pre-Season to implement changes against Support Meta. Our ranked system has existed with this meta for years and suddenly changing it now so close to the end of the season would heavily undermine all of the work and theory-crafting dedicated by our already small, fragile population. In conclusion, Support Meta is frequently misunderstood in 3's. People are learning overtime how to play with/against it - both of which leads to games with higher interactivity. Yes, Jungle Meta needs some help, but I think there are better solutions available that don't just copy-paste an idea from 5's. Changing Funneling in 5's so quickly makes sense since it hasn't existed in the meta for years - but it has in 3's. Our season is nearly at an end, and it wouldn't make sense to dramatically change the way our map is played with only a quarter of the season left. I hope this reaches you well, Auve
Meddler (NA)
: Hey, Thanks for the well written post. We're definitely open to adding the gold funneling nerf to TT. Didn't want to do so at the last minute in 8.14 without enough consideration, and at least some TT specific bug testing though. Our standard approach is to have systemic changes like this affect all maps by default. In this case though given gold funneling's been pretty meta defining on TT for a long time we weren't confident in our understanding of whether abruptly changing that would be a good idea or not. To get a better understanding we figured we'd talk to TT players in the regions where TT gets a noticeable amount of play. That means a post this week asking for feedback that gets translated into the appropriate languages, with our regional offices then helping summarize and translate player discussion from it back again. If the result of that discussion is that it looks like we should try the funneling change on TT as well we'll then make sure it's getting at least minimum needed testing for inclusion in an upcoming patch (could well be 8.15, if that's road to go down in the first place).
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=FHExMkaL,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-07-16T15:18:56.984+0000) > > Hey, > > Thanks for the well written post. We're definitely open to adding the gold funneling nerf to TT. Didn't want to do so at the last minute in 8.14 without enough consideration, and at least some TT specific bug testing though. Our standard approach is to have systemic changes like this affect all maps by default. In this case though given gold funneling's been pretty meta defining on TT for a long time we weren't confident in our understanding of whether abruptly changing that would be a good idea or not. > > To get a better understanding we figured we'd talk to TT players in the regions where TT gets a noticeable amount of play. That means a post this week asking for feedback that gets translated into the appropriate languages, with our regional offices then helping summarize and translate player discussion from it back again. If the result of that discussion is that it looks like we should try the funneling change on TT as well we'll then make sure it's getting at least minimum needed testing for inclusion in an upcoming patch (could well be 8.15, if that's road to go down in the first place). Thanks for your response, Meddler. I think the consensus in the community is that some change needs to be made, although I suspect the level of change is up to heavy debate. So it's good to know that you're reaching out to the TT community. It's worth noting that the majority of 3's players play the map either casually or as a solo queue in Ranked Flex. Those players are going to experience frustration from playing against full premade teams regardless of the strategy employed. Just some food for thought.
Meddler (NA)
: I'm 99% certain this change is only on the SR versions of those items. Will double check to make sure that's the case though. Whether or not it's the correct change for TT wouldn't want to push it there so abruptly without a better understanding of its impact.
I'd love to get together with someone from Riot and talk about potential TT changes. I've had some ideas for a while for _low resource changes_ to the map that got some support on r/leagueoflegends and within our discord communities. Thanks for the clarification, Meddler.
kihashi (NA)
: Any idea if this "funneling" change will also apply to Twisted Treeline?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 11
How will this affect The Twisted Treeline given that "funneling" is an established part of support meta?
Oldspike (NA)
: Clarity on the Numerical Values of Kennen's Passive.
Be content with what information you're given, swineherd.

Auve

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