Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
Initial Concern: Difference in damage output at specific mid levels where pre-change Teemo would have a max E. If passive doesn't scale to 18, but instead to like 16 that'd mitigate this concern.
Meddler (NA)
: I agree that would be a good fit for his revised personality/lore. It's a really substantial change to a champion with stable and healthy gameplay though. In cases like this we'd want to put gameplay over lore. Not saying that's ideal, but that if we have to make a trade off it's the way we tend to lean.
Just saying, I always kind of wanted him to have an animation where his fist lays on the ground if he misses. Possible thresh lantern 2?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 15
Very disappointing that the Karma changes never made it to PBE at least. I personally was very impressed by Neurocats work and figured most of the community would come around after they got to play it. Mostly due to the well placed details in the coding changes. While I do see the thematic debate of the ally-W on Karma. I really hope the other changes (mostly the passive) go through to PBE. Possibly sooner if you don't need to wait for art assets for ally-w.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 25
I'm slightly disappointed to hear about the Akali change. Mostly because I think it's giving up on finding an innovate solution for an easy solution. That's not qualitatively a bad course of action and I've never played a lot of Akali. So for me it's mostly a missed opportunity to see some neat design juggling. Still, did you ever try out a model where towers push away smoke or prevent smoke in a (smaller then regular tower shot) radius? Was that too complex to engineer?
Meddler (NA)
: Assessing whether permament Maiden is working as hoped or not's going to be our first priority, regardless of where his power level ends up (unless he's just crazy OP and needs a hotfix, but would be pretty surprised).
One of the changes you guys pulled was a CD increase on Maiden. I suspect if you need to nerf Yorick you may push another CD nerf on Maiden. Likely if your goal is to increase his counterplay/weakness if the enemy beats up Maiden. In the event you start looking at increasing Maiden base cooldown. Please consider a non-standard approach where _some_ of her cooldown can be reduced while she's out but not all of the cooldown. I'm not suggesting a specific set of values here. I'm suggesting this as a way to cushion a net nerf. The live version of Yorick _avoids_ fights when Maiden is unavailable. PBE Yorick looks to be more Maiden centric. How long Yorick has to wait after losing Maiden is a pretty major factor in how he feels to play.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 11
Commenting on gap between safe jungle patterns vs crab control: My issue is that the gap between fallback and scuttle is multiplicative on how many times you miss scuttle. So whatever gap exists isn't just a first clear issue but an entire game issue. Sometimes an enemy jungler gets enough of a lead they can just walk into your jungle and take things from in front of you. If your laners don't rotate you have to let them have it. This feels _terrible_. It is also fairly rare. Scuttle feels like that fairly often. All the time if you are playing a jungler that loses too much from contesting. It feels especially terrible if it's so dangerous you need to retreat from a started crab _and_ suffer a risk of being followed after. Lower ELOs don't help ward jungle entrances and crabs often happen mid first clear. So the results of being "ganked" at krugs can feel pretty tilting. To me, it feels like if you give up crab you should at least have some safety in return. However, you can _lose_ safety as a result of enemy regaining resources (health/mana), mobility (speed boost), and a lead. Yeah this is an issue that is compensated for in higher ELOs due to more potential teamwork punishing overly aggressive map positioning. However, Scuttle's baseline design is very win more for the person taking it. With any potential gap growing larger and larger the more coverage of Scuttle the enemy has. I'm not sure on an exact solution. I'd find it interesting if Scuttle gave some "both teams" vision temporarily or some similar trade off that makes it easier for the "safe" jungler to achieve greater safety when they give up Scuttle.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 11
"early game in particular** we believe don't believe**" Small error there. Also wanted to repeat my suggestion for yorick from last time. Can the CD _functionality_ on Maiden be adjusted with a split? For example: "cooldown starts ticking on cast but only down to a cap of 50% cooldown remaining". I realize PBE is testing quite a few changes for Maiden and one thing it floated was higher CD. However, Maidens CD can only get so high before it starts feeling insanely bad and unreliable to have maiden die. Seems like it would be easier to balance a Maiden that has better uptime but still has a window of weakness on loss. For example, on live lv 16 Maiden has a cooldown of 100 seconds, that could be 120 with a 60 second min cap. In a situation where you lose maiden immediately 20 cd nerf, in a situation you keep her alive a 40 cd gain. Feels like it would reward more skilled use of maiden through uptime.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 9
On the subject of Yorick and maiden changes on PBE: I'll try and give more feedback on PBE. But I wanted to throw out the idea of Maiden cooldown being split. At present CD doesn't start until she dies. CD nerfs are thus kind of awkward if you are pushing Yorick to rely on Maiden more. Could CD start on cast but only go down to 50% CD remaining while maiden is out?
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations
Ok a bit more awake. My gut feelings: -Energized isn't fun or exciting. It adds damage but it's harder for me to notice. I also dislike having to use rely on single proc stuff in ADC play patterns. Sheen line with a Gangplank Q or Trundle Q feels very different from energized as every "big attack" I do is modified and it sums total damage. -40% crit on IE and +crit dmg isn't going to be as easy to balance as a low crit % like 10-20%. Part of why ad/crit/as/crit dmg is a multiplicative relationship is that crit is only reliable when you get large quantities of it. There's a point where crits become reliable enough where it all clicks together. -These build paths look horrific to deal with. Whether an ADC is staying on top of farm and gets components on backs is so critical on if they win all-ins before items start completing. I see two BF swords in a build and I shudder. **I want to suggest a _build up crit damage_ over time approach. _Item Passive: For every crit you gain a stack that provides +x% crit damage. **_ This does a few things, it means the first few attacks of an ADC are going to be the least damaging. It means the ADC can build up vs tanks then swap to squishies which matches play pattern well as it rewards "always attacking" in a way live StormRazor punishes. It's also multiplicative which helps create that before/after divide that is so important to balancing ADC timings. It also allows for more total crit dmg% with a "nerf" of not having it upfront. (building up to 50% over 10 crits is a massive nerf from previous IE) It also creates a ton of unreliability at low crit %s because maybe stacks fall off due to lack of crits within window. Though it has the benefit of being a fairly soft increase in damage (vs a gain crit % on attacks design) so stacks falling off shouldn't feel too bad to user. This also potentially pairs well with a nerf to baseline crit damage but higher crit % availability across multiple items. Providing more and odder ways to raise crit dmg back up can help distinguish build paths a bit more. While making more build paths possible without high crit % on lots of characters feeling too strong.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations
I'm really tired so I'll conk out when I conk out. IE giving + crit damage creates a force multiplier for damage. I understand that adc dps got too high in some season I didn't play. I'm also under the impression that, that involved extra AS from stuff like ardent. The idea is that when a character has finished the basic trinity of damage, crit, and AS they get the best possible autoattack DPS. ADCs are just a vector for that. As seen in random mages going an "ADC" build for memes that work ok. Having _any single item_ provide too much of all three breaks the possible balance state. That balance state being that a character needs farm and items to come online. Though we run into another issue with games and TTK being so much faster then seasons like 1,2, or 3. So suddenly Riot tries something like SR. The main issue with current IE is that it does not multiply DPS. It converts a part of current DPS to the same DPS but ignoring reductions. That's not a multiplier. That's something that directly competes with LW (but also stacks as IE + LW isn't actually terrible right now into the right situations). One of the curveballs is how dicey small amounts of crit are. Crits basically been removed as a small incremental gain. We have huge jumps in crit % in finished items. A good sivir build is SR > PD > IE which leaves you at 60% but you _do not get another +crit% item_. I honestly think it's time to reevaluate crits baseline. How much damage you gain off a crit specifically. Maybe so that _more sources of +crit dmg can exist_. Maybe not.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 14
Neeko's jungle is something people have been trying to make work. It seems fairly fragile and is likely to be hardest hit by Q nerfs. I wouldn't be surprised if this , relatively minor nerf, kills Neeko jungle's viability. Any chance that some jungle specific changes are in consideration? Having E do full root duration to Monsters would likely be enough to maintain viability across buffs/nerfs. It's definitly the lowest win rate of the three roles people are playing Neeko (mid, supp, jungle). It's also the least "intended" role for Neeko. So I'm not to fussed about it personally.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 30
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 30
The MR nerfs during mid-season last season _was_ the part of those changes I was most worried about. Nice to see some walking back on that front is planned. **Would it be appropriate to have a crit chance item that raises crit chance _over the course of autoattacks_?** Much like how rageblade works? Historically the issue with low crit %s is the RNG surprise nature shifting a fight over. Especially when a crit chance of 1-2% is available very early for laning trades as one crit could tilt whose winning lane or determine who wins an all in. However, a crit chance build up would more naturally pair with ADCs play pattern more strongly then any other role. Esp if no specific melee crutch is attached to the item (like rageblades faster stack build up). This exclusivity would allow such an item to be cheaper, slot in as an IE alternative to reach large crit %, and possibly enable more diverse crit build paths. I personally feel that a major issue with ADCs is how locked into certain build paths they are. Deviation is punishing _because_ of how much ADC need to hit certain Crit and AS before their auto-output really becomes viable. Often it takes so long in current economy that they also need to wait for IE and LW to be able to properly front to back/deal with high armor targets such as a fed bruiser.
Meddler (NA)
: That's an ongoing discussion internally right now covering whether this is the sort of unique strength we should be preserving despite its costs or something we should remove because of its downsides, thereby as you say freeing us up to put some power elsewhere. Will update once we've got a conclusion.
What have you discussed as a middle ground solution to akali? It doesn't seem like a binary design decision to me. Rather then total keep and total removal. Making it so there's a "safe zone" within 200-400 units of the tower (either by pushing or fizzling part of shroud) would give enemy laners more safe area to work with and akali less shroud area to work in.
: I'm somewhat concerned about the _direction_ Yorick changes have been heading in. Wanted to get some cents in before yorick mains pop in and possibly overdo it. (I myself am not particularly good at current yorick, but hold a sweet spot for him from pre-rework yorick days) This patches change, and subsequent hotfix, are being packaged as "bug fixes". But they feel like hard nerfs. This is because the behavior that is being changed has been consistent since his rework (IIRC) and was in line with some other pets. Furthermore, of the Pet champions, Yorick has the _least_ agency for triggering or controlling his pets. He has to sit next to a minion wave, repeatedly last hit with Qs, and then he gets to summon his pets. His only real control over said pets is landing a moderatly dodgable skillshot. He does have agency to delay summoning until he lands one of said skill shots but even still. He isn't like Zyra or Heimer whom can stockpile independently then drop a big burst of pets. He isn't like Malz who just gets to W. There is an additional and very important fact. Damaging Yorick makes his ghouls attack the opposing champion. This means the "bugfix" provided enemies a way to _hard punish_ Yorick for using Ghouls at all. Simply attack Yorick, get ghoul aggro, let one hit him, and watch your wave/tower aggro on him. With the hotfix this still damages Yorick's ability to apply damage to towers when any enemy champion is around as he has to wait for his ghouls to be dead to do so safely. Certainly some players won't punish Yorick properly in these scenarios. However, it's a hefty amount of counterplay to suddenly add to a "bugfix" with zero cook time on PBE to warn us it's coming. In addition the patch notes, while trying to be lighthearted, comes off a bit snide when you know Yorick _doesn't_ get as much control of his pets. This, in addition to a recent trend of hard yorick nerfs has lead to a fairly "out to get yorick" vibe. Anyway, I want to request a more indepth look at yorick. Not just trying to keep his win rate at some specific %. The recent line of changes have damaged the core systems of how Yorick functions as a champion. If Riot's balance team really wants to adjust them they should do so with a proper plan and design intent. I'm personally ok with damaging Yoricks tower/split push but shouldn't that also involve some juggling of power/gameplay elsewhere? Not just reducing Yorick into being terrible at the one thing he's able to do because that thing is problematic?
TLDR: The recent direction of yorick changes including this "bugfix" have involved some heavy damage to Yorick's gameplan. Can he get some heavier investment along the lines of the current galio/ornn/sej work to pick a more cohesive design intent/direction? Rather then being left to opportunistic adjustment that net nerfs him?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 22
I'm somewhat concerned about the _direction_ Yorick changes have been heading in. Wanted to get some cents in before yorick mains pop in and possibly overdo it. (I myself am not particularly good at current yorick, but hold a sweet spot for him from pre-rework yorick days) This patches change, and subsequent hotfix, are being packaged as "bug fixes". But they feel like hard nerfs. This is because the behavior that is being changed has been consistent since his rework (IIRC) and was in line with some other pets. Furthermore, of the Pet champions, Yorick has the _least_ agency for triggering or controlling his pets. He has to sit next to a minion wave, repeatedly last hit with Qs, and then he gets to summon his pets. His only real control over said pets is landing a moderatly dodgable skillshot. He does have agency to delay summoning until he lands one of said skill shots but even still. He isn't like Zyra or Heimer whom can stockpile independently then drop a big burst of pets. He isn't like Malz who just gets to W. There is an additional and very important fact. Damaging Yorick makes his ghouls attack the opposing champion. This means the "bugfix" provided enemies a way to _hard punish_ Yorick for using Ghouls at all. Simply attack Yorick, get ghoul aggro, let one hit him, and watch your wave/tower aggro on him. With the hotfix this still damages Yorick's ability to apply damage to towers when any enemy champion is around as he has to wait for his ghouls to be dead to do so safely. Certainly some players won't punish Yorick properly in these scenarios. However, it's a hefty amount of counterplay to suddenly add to a "bugfix" with zero cook time on PBE to warn us it's coming. In addition the patch notes, while trying to be lighthearted, comes off a bit snide when you know Yorick _doesn't_ get as much control of his pets. This, in addition to a recent trend of hard yorick nerfs has lead to a fairly "out to get yorick" vibe. Anyway, I want to request a more indepth look at yorick. Not just trying to keep his win rate at some specific %. The recent line of changes have damaged the core systems of how Yorick functions as a champion. If Riot's balance team really wants to adjust them they should do so with a proper plan and design intent. I'm personally ok with damaging Yoricks tower/split push but shouldn't that also involve some juggling of power/gameplay elsewhere? Not just reducing Yorick into being terrible at the one thing he's able to do because that thing is problematic?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 14
I think Roy's doing an excellent job with these anim updates. Very happy you are working on them. I've given feedback via twitter on most/all of these already. Some bits of feedback I'd like to re-iterate: Fiora's animation suite involves her having her rapier out at all times. This seems tiring on her wrist. Project Ashe only has her headgear when in "enemy" territory. Similar Fiora could use a "rapier at rest" walk animation or variant animation when in base (with no towers down). Something like resting rapier on her shoulder. This might also require a second animation where she switches to a ready stance though. Shacos animation is fantastic. Lb's staff movement feels off due to weight of the staff not being conveyed by how she is moving it. Feels like she is holding a cosplay prop instead of an actual staff. Rest of her walk is fantastic. Issue is she has a runway walk and runway models don't exactly hold props much. An idea to circumvent this issue is that she holds the staff with magic, letting it float next to her right hand while that hand "conducts" it....assuming the staff isn't attached to her hand by the rig.
Meddler (NA)
: Early next year most likely. They're waiting in a queue of stuff that needs art, hence the delay.
**Any chance we can get the changes on PBE early without all of the art side they need? **So we can get some testing early? I know you didn't do it for Liss so not holding my breath here. I'm just really excited and optimistic about these Karma changes. (Been on karma mains discord and talked to NC about them. I feel like most people don't "get" all the neat little things she did to keep it from being totally broken and won't until they see functionality themselves) **Oh and what's your take on the karma changes? **Have you enjoyed them in closed testing?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 14
Hey Meddler, I'm really starting to wonder about the lack of unusual nerfs on certain champions. Most of our balance changes recently seem very numerical outside rework stuff like the galio/ornn/sej changes. It feels like some of the most complained about champs could take an odd nerf and work out well. **Has there been hesitancy to delivery functionality changes late last season because of the backlash mid season?** Examples: _Zoe: _ Zoe's damage output has a very large range of values. Even when she misses skill shots she can have a very high burst with her passive and multiple Ws. Her best case scenario can involve multiple spell thief casts. Having her casting spell thief push any other spell thief bubbles away from here or delete them would reduce her max output without affecting her min/normal case. _Irelia: _ The live balance gave her 100% vs minions on Q which has become really problematic to face as she reaches "one shots minions" quicker in games and that results in a lot more self healing then her original design. Overall the speed she can melt a wave with Q reset spam is absurd. Lowering her Q dash speed and/or giving it a minimum cooldown on resets (.1 second or .05) would give her opponents more of a window to hit her/aim skillshots while she is dashing around. _Jhin: _ At some point Jhins W gained the ability to do it's full root value off an ally damage and not just his own set up (E and his own damage). This means a Jhin can contribute a 3000 range 0.75-1.75 root to a fight regardless of his own state in the game. Before this change the effective range of this root was lower since Jhin himself needed to set it up. Wouldn't a 50% root duration of ally damage or a convert to slow for ally damage make sense? (I realize people don't complain about Jhin as much. He's a personal bias of mine but I feel the design of this change is a good example) _Sion:_ Int Sion has come into vogue for several patches without changes directed at it. While it's _usually_ "person feeding on sion in-effectively" it has also revealed/popularized some things any Sion can do that are really effectively. Notability how much damage a tanky sion can get onto a tower due to his passive. A reduction in tower damage when dead or simply breaking the ability to proc demolish when dead would have gone a long way to kill the Int Sion dream. Could also adjust how Zzrot counts as minions for tower damage reduction bypass by making Zzrot ignore arm/mr on towers but not count as minions.
: Hey everyone! Sound designer for the K/DA skins here. Thought I'd chime in about the points you mentioned above, which were very sound arguments by the way. See what I did there? Sound? Anyone? Okay so! First things first. For context, there are chordal synth stabs on Eve's Q spikes, and they randomize so that every time you hit her 3 spikes, you get slightly different melodies. Similarly to what's going on with K/DA Ahri's 3 dashes on her ult. During development, I did have a version of the spikes that was very heavy with the synth/musical elements, and week after week I consistently got the feedback from Evelynn mains that while it was cool, after clearing jungle camp after jungle camp it became extremely fatiguing quickly. Not only that, that high frequency TICK TICK TICK of Eve's spikes are a pretty iconic part of her kit since her VGU. I really tried to hit a tasteful balance where you do hear the music, but it doesn't get super fatiguing to the ears when clearing camps. However! After exploring some of the feedback I got when the skins were on PBE, I did notice a trend where folks were hoping to hear more of the musical elements on Eve's Q spikes. So in service of that, I submitted a change that downplayed the spike elements and increased the volume of the musical layers. **That change is currently on PBE and will patch out to all regions in 8.23** On a broader note to the point above, one of the biggest things I try to keep in mind when designing the audio for a skin is "how do I make this skin shine as epically as possible and explore new creative ground while protecting gameplay at all costs". Eve has certain very key components that make her recognizable. One of them is her Q spikes. Another is the savage scream on her ult. Similarly, I also wanted to protect the cadence of her E. I really worked to dial up the pop awesomeness on her empowered E, and left the less damaging unempowered E less embellished on purpose: to widen the delta of impact between the two versions of her E. Note that the unempowered E still has new SFX - it's a subtler shimmery crystalline tail to inject some airy popstar flair into the ability, but I didn't want to go too heavy-handed. I hope this provides a bit of insight into why I felt it was best to make the design choices that ultimately shipped with the skin. Eve was one of my favorite K/DA skins to design, so my hope is that this helps folks understand that these sounds were made with the best play experience in mind. Also I really love nerding out about sound design too, and I appreciate that this thread was made because I love the passion. :)
Throwing out a random idea. If the issue with the Q sound being too loud is fatigue....can you have some contextual element that makes it play at that volume _sometimes_? Or is losing a consistent x3 Q volume an issue? If the goal is Evelynn _only_ has softened Q sound when chain clearing. Could have the first monster she kills put the volume down until X seconds of not fighting monsters. Could even be analog instead of a binary option. The KDA sound volume goes down every camp she clears as it goes to regular ting sounds. Could be interesting to have a musical element where she has a lingering musical score from triggering Q on monsters. I realize the skins shipped and available resources are limited. However, the KD/A skins seem to be getting extra love so I wanted to toss out some hairbrained ideas.
Squad5 (NA)
: Ornn changes on PBE
>Ornn must get close to his ally and click on them, which will cause him to forge his ally's item and replace it for them when he's finished. Sounds interesting but I'm fairly curious about this interaction and combat states. What happens if you get jumped while trying to upgrade? What if the ally goes into combat? Say you try to upgrade a Nocturne's ability and he uses R? Or an enemy Karthus unleashes his R? Will it be restricted to fountain or usable anywhere? It seems to me that major consideration needs to go into how accessible these upgrades are given they are gold free. I've suggested it elsewhere in this thread but I'll suggest it again. In the two item case, instead of having an automatic system, having Ornn have agency to choose makes sense to me. It can be as simple as over-riding his current forge interface with the available options during the channel. Maybe some minor adjustments to the UI window pane like a small icon of the champion whose equipment you are upgrading and a different border from normal. Having Ornn have to make the decision when there's only a single item could also make sense as a way to maintain consistent UI interactions and train them on the interface. An alternative is Ornn rightclicking someone could turn him into a temporary shopkeeper only accessible by that player. They need to rightclick Ornn, both characters are animation locked into an interaction (which could involve some neat animations if you guys have the time). The shopkeep panel opens to a custom Ornn screen and they make the selection out of available options. It'd put the agency in the hands of the person Ornn is upgrading but make the entire interaction feel like one players are used to already.
Squad5 (NA)
: Only problem is Ornn already uses that interface. There's a risk there that we get too convoluted.
It'd be a one time decision per game and the fact the systems set up for Ornn indicates it can be set up for other champions. Alternatively you can give full agency to Ornn. Have Ornn's own interface be over-written while he's channeling with available items in enemy inventory. Ornn has to click the item to upgrade it for them (even when there's only one item so players are used to doing it). Maybe allow extra channel time padding. Forging takes 4 seconds after he selects but channeling can last 6 seconds to give him time to decide?
: Visual Effects Update: Renekton
I think that Renektoy's chromas leave room to justify a better treatment despite the low base cost of the skin. Even in the case of extra work, if the extra work is focused on making the chromas spiffier with base Renektoy just getting side benefit that seems ok. I actually have Renektoy amusingly. His current VFX, while very understated and minimal, do not detract from him at all. The pool party R is quite neutral and I didn't even realize what it was until now. In contrast, I think that the new VFX detract in a way current one doesn't. Though that's almost entirely the added bugs but am not sure the color matches well either. I'd need to see it live on PBE to really judge. Still green backdropped with blue changed to green backdropped with yellow. New VFX impressions for renektoy: Passive - Room to make this VFX more toy like. The eyes being a fog don't fit a toy as well as a couple of solid beams that look like they are from cheap LEDs/bad commercial VFX. Q - Seems totally ok W- Seems totally ok. Be nice to get a little "chop" sound effect bubble. E- Sand feels a bit out of place R- Sand and bugs feel out of place So I seem to have this line of thought that maybe pushing Renektoy into a bad 90s toy commercial direction could work? Might be pretty easy to bash together some vfx for simple vector shapes in single tone color to throw into a more vibrant ult like a 90s background. Or maybe it'd be possible to add sound bubble "sound effects" as particles? That could be justified as RnD to have a method for doing it for another skin down the line. [Have a crappy mockup.](https://imgur.com/av1bnXy) Basically 90s backgrounds are just really simple vector graphics on bright colors. There's a lot of variety. You could use a blue background for the R VFX but make it more "neon" or bright. Then replace the bugs with some shapes and squiggles. Chroma compatibility could come from altering the particle colors to match each chroma.
rujitra (NA)
: To be quite fair, I see no reason that she *needs* more damage. Her Q is already quite powerful and when built as a mage in the mid lane she is more than able to output a lot of damage with it. Yes, it may feel like you’re droning on by Q Q Q Q Q Q over and over again. That doesn’t mean it’s bad (look at Lissandra, for example).
I don't think people are suggesting a buff without cost. RE having a shield bomb means spending mantra on E and not Q which is some cost already. Power shifts to allow full combo to involve shield bomb as well. Anyway that's the debate isn't it? I was just presenting the shield bomb side of the debate for information sake. It's also because shield bomb is very iconic for people whom played Karma when she had it and they just want it back at any cost.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 26
Is new celerity design going to be additive or multiplicative? I think an additive bonus that applies whenever you gain a speed boost would see wider play, even at a low %, then a multiplicative one. Have you also considered a diminishing boost? To clip power out of the best case speed stacking for celerity but make the mid cases better? If it was additive for example it could be +5%-+1% when under the effects of a haste diminishing the more powerful the haste/higher your resulting MS. So a 600 MS user would only get +1% to speed (which is still strong) but a 400 MS user would have +5%? Numbers just thrown together.
: Happy to. I know shield bomb was a pretty big request from a part of the community, so I tried to get a good amount of testing in on it. The mechanic actually tested pretty well - it created more thoughtful usage around the R-E since the target's positioning is more important. However, putting the shield bomb together with the shared shields, either the version we'd ship would be really anemic (since we'd need to tune it appropriately to have both effects on the mantra) and feel bad to play with, or exceed the complexity bar on the spell. So we chose shared shields similar to live in favor of shield bomb, since we believe that's something that current Karma players enjoy about her, and would want to see stay on the kit.
Thank you for testing shield bomb. Sad it's not working out but I get the reasoning with power budgets. As mentioned on discord. I wonder if an "enemy minion only" shield bomb or a "small damage shield bomb if no allies nearby for RE to shield" are plausible as edge case shield bombs to just get that shield bomb into her kit somehow. The later "if no allies nearby for RE to shield" bit would assume damage tuning to be a much worse usage of mantra then RQ. And mostly there so if allies die before RE hits you still get something or for cases where Q is on cooldown and mantra comes up and you need a little damage. Or as a quick alternate AoE clear tool for solo Karmas.
Hupsis (EUNE)
: Good call. The fact that she already has a damage mantra option through Q should be reason enough to not give her another damage mantra.
FYI: Many Karma players, esp ones that play old karma, will disagree with you. There is a strong argument that a shield bomb reduces burden on the rest of her kit for dealing damage. Esp as a shield bomb can be a very consistent application of damage vs skill shots/breakable tether. It's a consistent base of power that costs a major cooldown/resource (mantra). It doesn't need to be tuned to Q levels of damage to exist. Mind I'm only pointing out why "Karma shouldn't have a second damage mantra" isn't a good argument. As for not getting shield bomb? NC tested it and made a judgement call so I'm not upset.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 24
Any comments on Nunu's current state? He just got a variety of changes. Curious what the view of him since his rework is.
: Let’s talk nexus blitz
I think Nexus Blitz needs more cook time to become a PGM. But I think it should become one eventually. It's biggest draw is allowing a closer to SR experience for learning a champion. ARAM can help learn all champions abilities and cooldowns to some extent but doesn't help learn 1v1s, 2v2s, or laning experience much.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 19
Hey Meddler. How do you think reworked Nunu has landed/worked out? His pickrate and winrate seem a bit iffy from this side of the data set. (Only 3rd party info to look at) Any chance you can share some metadata on how well people stick with Nunu and how their winrates rise?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 17
Any thoughts on reworked Nunu's current state? He's been a bit overshadowed with worlds and other balance concerns. His pickrates pretty low.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 12
Since you are bugfixing Yorick's maiden. Any chance we could have more visualization of her major AI states. Yorick players know that she has two follow states and one run down lane state. Be nice if she had an icon or _something_ that updates to show her exact current state so Yorick players don't need to guess so hard. This observation goes for AI pets in general. It might be easier to give feedback on bugs if they had a "current target" icon visible to the controller. That way there is far more clarity.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 12
Are any of the recent "Pro-oriented buffs because pro-oriented patch" been really affecting solo-q from Riots perspective? Any reverts planned?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 12
Nunu's rework has been out for a bit. Any thoughts on it? How's it's strength? Is it considered underpowered or overpowered? Would you have any metadata available for Nunu related to winrates over # of games played?
Meddler (NA)
: Seemed to land pretty well. Made it a somewhat better choice for its core users at least without other buffing. Reducing the AP while buffing the DoT seems to have worked as hoped. Not sure yet however whether it's having a meaningfully larger impact as an HP stacking counter. That's comparatively subtle though, so possible we see something emerge over a bit more time.
I've seen it perform in ARAM against health and MR stacking. (With a voidstaff). If that means anything. It's a good environment to check if that interaction is working well enough.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 10
An interesting design of time warp tonic could be _converting_ some of the over time to up front. Total healing unchanged, no functional difference if used for sustain, but makes pots better in combat. Like "Reduces duration by 3 seconds but gain those 3 seconds of restoration immediately". This would weaken the MS use case and I like singed so I'm subjectively annoyed it's getting nerfed again.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 10
Nunu's been out for a bit. I'm confident that there's agreement it's fun and people like the new theming. However, in looking at win rate, play rate, and talking to people playing Nunu. I'm concerned about the kit lacking strength. Do you have any metrics on how Nunu's rework is doing from a strength perspective? Win rates past 20 games or other stuff? What are your thoughts on Nunu's current power level?
: I very much agree with all of that. I find a really clear point of comparison for AP on supports is actually Nami: At 200 AP her W bounce breaks even and starts gaining strength per bounce instead of losing. In the past I used to feel like I needed to borderline troll to get to 200 AP, now I just kind of assume if I get a couple support items I'll hit that no problem. There definitely are some issues across the board for all classes getting too many different stats on each individual item right now (not that the items are overpowered, the gold balances out - they're just kinda bloated and homogenized a bit too far imo), but that's another discussion entirely.
Definitely a different discussion entirely. Supports having damage, let alone burst mage supports existing, is still a weird thing to me. Went on a long break though. It's like "Yeah this 5th guy that used to only ever tickle can rip you apart if you stand still)
: I've given it long enough: I don't understand the hate for Akali
Old Akali's kit lacked a consistent level of strength to allow it to be readily played in higher ELOs. She was stompy in soloQ but wasn't that always only up to a point? If she ever started being pick/ban in plat or above hasn't Riot nerfed her? She was baseline weak in lane but gold hungry to reach functionality mid game before she fell off late game. Against better players whom played tighter and didn't let her get fed she'd be a push over. Other games, she'd get that first kill and be able to springboard into a very hard to deal with champion. The trick is that Old Akalis laning was good whenever she was scary enough to keep the enemy zoned. Anyway, I mention all this because New Akali's consistency and safety means she is being seen in a much wider array of games. More people are being exposed to her in their games. When they see her she isn't just crumbling because they played safe and starved her of kills. In addition she can apply lots of pressure just by hiding inside shroud. Being pressured in game can cause stress out of game, as you are forced into a set of actions by the pressure. PS: Old shroud had a small blink attached to it. I always see this overlooked in discussions about old vs new. Yet that little blink was enough to let old akalis tower dive and escape alive.
: The "clothesline" thing was great with ranged champions or divers, the only thing it wasn't the best on was any champion that liked to position in the middle of the fight between the two teams. Karma was durable enough that she could be in the front of her team but not in the middle of the enemy team. Using that positioning you could tether to anyone going all-in on your team to support them, or you could tether to one of the ranged champions on your team to help peel the enemies that were diving them. If you tethered anyone on or going to the outskirts of either team and positioned yourself centrally that gave you almost all of the control over the tether. Either situation made full use of her W clothesline, Q's heal/damage, and her passive due to having put herself in a position where she'll take damage but not have to tank 5 people at once. There's a weird misconception about how her old kit played and that it was 100% useless unless you had a prophetic melee diver on your team. At worst she was slightly more reliant on her team member's positioning than other supports were, but absolutely nothing anywhere near close to as bad as everyone seems to insist upon. It's also worth considering the fact that most of the time if her team member wasted Karma's W, it was quite often because the enemy blinked/flashed/etc. away or the carry you were trying to peel for chased the threat off. Both of those things could often be accounted for by the Karma player by playing the fight ahead a few seconds in their mind before using the W. Sure, there are times it was wasted, but nothing anywhere close to the apocalyptic levels everyone wants to enforce on it. I legitimately think the old kit was only "bad" because in season 2 and before, everyone was still bad at the game.
You are correct. I do not mean to suggest she needed a melee diver. Just that melee divers didn't really need to know how Karma worked to prove useful for Karma. The main burden on a melee diver was knowing the rhythm of trades (Karma wanted to do a quick trade then back off for about 6 seconds for cooldowns, then re-initiate before enemies long cooldowns came back) and even that was something easier to work around for the Karma player in soloQ situations. I wished to put forth how large the gap _could_ be for old Karma. There was certainly some middle ground between the two extremes. Though in what experience I had with her, her Q range was a bit too short to safely utilize into two enemy ranged without getting heavily chunked. While I agree that people being "bad" was part of it in season 2. The itemization of the time is a major factor as well. During that period of time it was pretty plausible for a support to end a game with 0 AP. Now support can reliably get to 100-200 ap while technically getting support items.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
Worlds is on patch 8.19. When(/what) are some of the "pro targeted" changes from that patch going to be reverted?
: Thanks for trying all the things NeuroCat! I'm not terribly surprised the tests didn't fully work out. It is very interesting to see the spirit form versions. I had not thought of those ideas. The last implementation feels like it might work well on Morde of all things. Clothesline was the biggest part of old Karma that necessitated a rework. It's worth noting that it worked best with _melee_ champions in duo fights. Imagine a Xin or Irelia whose dashes put them into or past the enemy model. W procs immediately and off stuff they already want to do. A Garen just runs past with Q dash speed, procs, then Q Es on a slowed target because his Q (iirc) doesn't put him into the enemy model. In contrast ranged champions with dashes had to put themselves greatly at risk to utilize the slow and damage of W. Something that could win a trade if they knew to do it (cause they'd also be close enough to shield bomb off of, so you'd get 2 extra damage spells in not just w). But as you said, burden of knowledge. They wouldn't and so old Karma support had a terrible time with terrible peel and only being able to use 40% of her kit. So I do want to ask._ Did you test a handcuff shape?_ By that I mean, a tether between two targets and a small radius around both being the hit zone. And by small I mean small, like shorter then sunfire cape radius. There's a huge difference between having to run past an enemy (especially with champions being circles) and having to run _into_ an enemy.
I wanted to add some numbers. Old Karma's abilities and scalings are still on lol wiki under history tab - previous abilities. At lvl 3 Karma had a pretty solid spike. You could have two mantra charges ready for hitting lvl 3 and attempt an all in with a duo partner. One point in Q, W, E. Q lvl 1 did 70 + .6 ap; W lvl 1 did 80 + .7 ap; E did 80 + .8 ap. Q was short range cone; W required clothesline; E required you to use mantra and was short ranged. Now that level 3 all in could be a burst of 230 damage + 2.1 ap _and_ an 80 + .8 health shield. You could also delay the Q to get it's "scaling with missing health" heal into the mix. Oh and that burst is totally AoE and can affect both enemies in an ideal case. If an ally is ranged and stays at max range. You do not get mantra E to hit anything worthwhile. You also do not proc W. You get to waddle forward as the only target for two ranged to unload on for 70 + .6 ap damage. Or you hang back and only get the 80 health shield and a mantra Q in. So that's the shape of level 3 fights for old Karma. Her best case scenario is over x3 as much done _numerically_ then her worse case scenario. 70 vs 230x2 damage. Not including how well she uses her passives ap or mantra q heal. In team fights what mattered is if old Karma was able to scale into gold and levels. As, primarily, a support during her time frame she didn't get either. Assuming 400 AP and lvl 18. She'd be entering fights applying a 135 + 13% targets missing health heal to her entire team while dealing 510 AoE dmg with a single mantra Q. She could burst a total of 1695 AoE including W proc and a mantra E. Contrast that with being way down in levels, not having enough gold for 2 items because of ward costs, and teammates not proccing her W. Quite a gap between best case and worst case. Entirely hinging on team mates providing her opportunities. While existing in a time before Riot allowed support to have gold generation and items.
: Clothesline Karma Mini-Retrospective
New Karma's passive and Mantra cooldown are the most frustrating parts of the kit for me. So I'm fairly hopeful about these other things you've tested and can't reveal yet. To clarify, her passive doesn't exist when Mantra is off cooldown and encourages risky aggression when on cooldown. Its feast or famine based on how safely Karma can get auto attacks and Qs in. The famine part feels really bad on places like ARAM when the enemy team is all ranged. This is also why I've played way less Karma since Ultimate Hats removal. It just felt so good to have Mantra with a good base cooldown earlier in the game.
: Clothesline Karma Mini-Retrospective
Thanks for trying all the things NeuroCat! I'm not terribly surprised the tests didn't fully work out. It is very interesting to see the spirit form versions. I had not thought of those ideas. The last implementation feels like it might work well on Morde of all things. Clothesline was the biggest part of old Karma that necessitated a rework. It's worth noting that it worked best with _melee_ champions in duo fights. Imagine a Xin or Irelia whose dashes put them into or past the enemy model. W procs immediately and off stuff they already want to do. A Garen just runs past with Q dash speed, procs, then Q Es on a slowed target because his Q (iirc) doesn't put him into the enemy model. In contrast ranged champions with dashes had to put themselves greatly at risk to utilize the slow and damage of W. Something that could win a trade if they knew to do it (cause they'd also be close enough to shield bomb off of, so you'd get 2 extra damage spells in not just w). But as you said, burden of knowledge. They wouldn't and so old Karma support had a terrible time with terrible peel and only being able to use 40% of her kit. So I do want to ask._ Did you test a handcuff shape?_ By that I mean, a tether between two targets and a small radius around both being the hit zone. And by small I mean small, like shorter then sunfire cape radius. There's a huge difference between having to run past an enemy (especially with champions being circles) and having to run _into_ an enemy.
Theorex (NA)
: I don't support this change. Yes it is a buff that is going to lead into massive nerfs. Why? Look at Ryze. Complete shit in solo queue. Really strong in pro play. What do you think will happen when Karma gets something that requires teamwork to pull off? That she is magically going to be played just as well as pro play in solo queue? Give her something real that can help solo queue. And make the pros adapt to that. They have 4 other people consistently that can work with to overcome hurdles. Me as a solo player, I can't climb a 4 man high wall by myself, and maybe 3 other people are there with me, but guess what we are still a bit short. So again. Bad change. Don't do it. I wish you would have listened to me with the Malzahar change back in season 6, but no. A silly diamond 3 malzahar main, must not know anything about the game or the champion. But HEY, KEEP IT UP RITO :) YOU'RE DOING A GREAT JOB WITH RYZE, AZIR, AND KALISTA. AND HERE SOON KARMA AGAIN.
Old Karma already had a kit whose issues where that but she never saw pro play ever. Oddly, she played way better with melee champs and would fit riots goal of more bot lane diversity...
: Preseason Dev Update Number 2!
About how much CDR are you considering the scaling to max out at? And about what level?
: Preseason Dev Update Number 2!
Is the bounty off _gold gain from minions_ or Creep Score itself? I ask cause if it's off creep score...then best not to forget to adjust how much CS players get from killing specific things. IIRC Cannon Minions are same CS as caster minions despite easily being x3 the gold value. Though you'll need to go over everything with a fine toothed comb if creepscore is suddenly connected to an actual in game benefit (bounties).
Meddler (NA)
: I'll get some notes on some of the stuff we've tried on Karma in an upcoming post (probably next week). TLDR is we started by testing some gamepaly things Karma used to have to see if it made sense to bring them back (e.g. W clothesline play). Ran into some issues with that, so looking at other options.
Oh goodness you actually tested clothesline? Man that was one of the biggest weaknesses of ye olde Karma. Nobody knew how it worked, it was like a 3rd of her burst damage and half of how she changed speed in fights. The fact allies never even knew to try to proc it in soloQ was a big issue with her old design and left Karma effectively only using 2 abilities in a fight. Even if you tested it. I'd have to question the test if it didn't have some quick and dirty visual modification to make it clear. I'd also question not changing it from a single line to a handcuffs shape. So a _small_ circle around both targets procs the effect. Having an ally proc a clothesline by walking directly next to an enemy and walking past them are very different things. Only one can plausibly occur by accident. You'd need a clothesline to have a hard CC effect, like a root, to justify working the way ye olde Karma's W did.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 26
**On Pyke:** _Maybe putting another AD ratio on his health regen passive and reducing base heal is a good idea?_ More specifically he stores 27%+(3%*level) damage taken up to a cap. While the cap scales with AD the % of damage taken does not. Shifting some of that base [% of damage taken] from a flat rate to a [bonus AD % conversion] would raise his AD builds recovery by quite a bit while pushing down his tank builds recovery. It sounds like Pyke is being looked at for the difference between tank and AD builds. Right now the health regen part of his passive scales way better with tank items then +bonus AD. Extra arm, MR, and passives like SVs raise durability and make healing throughput more efficient. Sure it reduces how much damage he takes and it may only store up to 25% of his max health but, with the extra durability he needs to heal less anyway. In contrast AD builds are volatile and easier to explode. They can be pushed below 50% max health in one engage and thus be put at a risky health % to engage with. Sharing the idea because I think it'd be interesting to tackle the problem from this direction. Rather then adjusting his AD ratios.
Baka Red (EUNE)
: I see only one minor difference between Snare/Root and Frothy White Goo's suggestion; knockup would still allow Yasuo (and potentially some other champions in future) to lock on those Knocked up targets. Snare/Root does not allow that. Imo Basic attacks too should be allowed during that kind of knockup. However, I am not really in favor of this kind of knockup. Nunu's big snowball could slam the target(s) down instead of up. Knockdown or Snare/Root effect would imo be enough.
I think it makes sense for Nunu's big snowball to not be a stun. I do agree that having it as a knockdown would be better then a knockup.
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