: [TFT] Top 500 Players from the Teamfight Tactics Beta on PBE
rank 92, thanks so much for this and TFT in general, you guys have been great <3
: Item Shop Cleanup
There r so many armor items hovering around the same space. items like thornmail, randuin, deadmans, sunfire, righteous glory. Is deadmans really needed when righteous exists, should there be 3 mana armor items with iceborn frozen heart righteous glory. Posing question of should there be so many lane armor items and should all of these items be armor items, i didnt include KV cause i feel its space is very clear. Should items like frozen mallet and deadmans be combined into a bruiser item, etc. Other items id be curious on is manamune and stormrazor, do these items having value on a single champion (ezreal obv is the only one for manamune, i think kaisa is the only real user of stormrazor rn?) wondering the difference between niche and low playrate for items like stormrazor. Obv ohm and zzrot should both be destroyed for one item, totally agree. Another possible question is shurelyas vs protobelt (obv supports dont go protobelt, but are the going shurelyas, and if not then pretty much any champion that would go shurelyas just cause protobelt for the waveclear and instaish engage(except singed off the top of my head)?
: Jarvan is LeBlanc.
no no thats canon, u meant Leblanc is actually Jarvan {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 15
i know we had issues last year mid season but I dont like the idea of no big changes that could be substantial meta changes. I do like the diversity in the game right now and the prevalence of a lot of ops in competitive being flex picks feels much better. It just sucks that things like the jungle will be the same for likely a 1.5 years, possibly more if no preseason work, some flaws with tank itemization, and theres still issues with enchanters in general in terms of their gameplay. Positively though, i love all the gameplay work champs are getting this year like vi,teemo, etc. huge props!
: In-Depth Ezreal discussion/Why Riot's "nerfs" are going in the wrong direction.
I'd like to see you the removal of AP on q affects AP builds, ideally I'd like to see how straight ad builds are in term of power before I think they should mess with muramana. They could also potentially lock out double tear in general, which in reality only nerfs ez
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 22
I know morgana isn't even out yet but I was wondering since the last roadmap didn't address partial vgus, is it something that you guys want to push going into the year or do you think there's a lot of other important projects. I know there's tons of champs that need full but there's also a ton that could benefit from partials
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 15
Hey meddler, curious on something involving champ reworks in the minor rework section now that karma isn't happening and Morgana is soonm. What's the teams consensus on minor reworks (alistar,shyv,reksai, kindred) and the minor vgu (ezreal)? Should we see more or less of this 1 ability/ partial vgu work this year compared to last?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 8
Hey meddler, it's been a while that even I almost forgot but what ever happened to the karmu Mini gu? Also for reksai is increasing the radius of vision on the tables, it's a change that helps lower elo without giving much more power to high elo and with the removal of sightstone for if seems justifiable now
: Champion Weaknesses in 2019
Just wondering if u guys were already using this for sylas a neeko. I noticed pretty fast that even though sylas on paper would sound op, things like all his abilities having animations/cast times mean he's actually fairly easy to play against.
: Full ARURF+ Change List
please do something about garen he is literally a monster <3
Meddler (NA)
: Blitz is still a potential candidate for an Ezreal style update. Nothing committed to beyond that though at present. Nexus Blitz play rate dropped off real hard once the missions for it ended. We're assessing what to do as a result, had been hoping its baseline appeal would stay higher. Overall it dropped down to a pretty similar play rate to its first run.
Just wanna say the reason I stopped was that the missions were pretty consuming meaning that once the missions were over I must have played like 50-75 Nexus blitz matches, imo that was a lot of Nexus blitz for month period
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 25
What about exploration for adc defensive items like bt, does it stop with pd change? Cause I feel like the pd changes are pretty low impact to making adc feel like they have more options outside rush crit.
: The Good, The Bad, and the League: 1/17 - 1/23
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 18
hey meddler can you talk a bit about what items tanks should want to build early and why those items are beneficial. I personally think iceborne gauntlet and abyssal mask are pretty good and makes sense when to build, whereas items like sunfire cape/ frozen heart/cinderhulk imo is not really hitting the mark. Sunfire cape obv has a spot with non mana, cdr irrelevant champs such as shen and mundo. But also is built second for a lot of champions after a cdr item (iceborne gauntlet and abyssal mask) and is that item supposed to be a second item when its a waveclear (lanefocused item) and not really a raw tank item like omen/thornmail/stoneplate. The same sorta applies to cinderhulk where it helps early clear for tanks but also has a scaling hp passive (like a dcap) meaning its better late, but also should be your early spike? I personally would like cinderhulk to bamis cinder but i feel like the scaling passive would be better on another item (possibly a rival to warmogs?). I just dont like the conflicting identities of the item. Finally frozen heart used to be one of the best tank items (frozen heart sv god combo of 40% cdr) but i feel like its stats dont hold up much with the other items. I personally think it should be a rival to abyssal (both are armor/mr aura items) and should build out of catalyst and either glacial shroud/ chain vest or wardens mail, and lose armor/10%cdr/ increase gold cost in exchange for hp and catalyst passive. IMO many of the secondary/Tertiary tank options are pretty good (righteous glory/ omen/sv/deadmans/ gargoyle/ knights vow/ adaptive helm/warmogs) and just some improvement to first items would help tanks feel better (i guess is a similar argument to the adcs current argument).
: Skin Universe Lore in 2019: Alt Fantasy, Multiverse Theory, and You
Hey carnival knights! Just wanted to start saying that all you guys on writing/ and the skin designers themselves have been killing it, all these events, stories, bios,etc. have been great to see. These alt worlds have been showing their own teeth in the ground and giving feel to these characters(even if its alt stories a lot of times u can see more of the actual characters personality). I have 2 things I'd love to see in the next year or 2: 1. Skin line interactions with each other. I'd love with a group or team would say lines when together (new line of super galaxy the people banter to each other, or make comments about other super galaxy champs). This imo brings the alt universes to the next level where we dont just hear the stories and see a mission in a gamemode, but hear more of their personal interactions, regardless of location. I dont know how much it costs to write up and put the dynamic va like xayah/rakan, but even 1 sided comments could be great (things like comments when a blood moon takes/gets a kill when you get an assist, or even comments when they get a kill you arent part of but near, even like leveling up next to one another (maybe for like arcade world). Think would be really fun to get their personalities into the game, when you have the skin. Also i don't mean necessarily add these to old skins (im guessing that's too much work/has problems overall) but for the future products in these skin lines. 2. Alt / older/younger versions of characters: things like riven as a noxian general, maybe wukong more primal, yasuo before being made a traitor, xin zhao in the Colosseum, sylas as a mage hunter :3. Alts like what if morg was good and kayle was evil, what if lamb was sadistic and wolf was kind, what if rumble went evil and trist had to take him out. Just some thoughts where skins actually give a different perspective on the actual world while also not being their cannon form. I think the alts would be best with vs events because there is a lot of characters that are foils to each other. Thats just my thoughts, idk how much of this is directly in your field but love that communication and the work you guys do! Keep it up
: Crit Item Explorations Part 2
almost all of these changes are ok imo except phantom dancer and spear of shojin. Phantom dancer should at least have the spectral waltz passive (bonus ms and walk through minions), or have more attack speed. Spear of shojin is the same gold as old ER but lost 300 mana, mana on hit, and 5 ad. Should at least give this item a ruby crystal and 200hp to make it compete a little bit with black cleaver (i personally dislike how universal black cleaver is and would like something that competes) as a more offensive ad cleaver.
Reav3 (NA)
: While I understand its not a issue for you, or me tbh. We do see that it is a issue for the vast majority of our players, I was just commenting on why I think that is. Here is the link that one of our data scientists put out about Champion popularity awhile ago https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/11/champ-popularity-mixing-math-art/ Non-Humanoid Champions definitely get played much less then humanoid Champions by a majority of the playerbase. This doesn't mean we shouldn't make them as they do make the cast overall feel more dynamic when we have them, even if they are less popular
This does interact with skins in some way at least. If a champion is less relatable **and** less played obviously its more opportunity cost to make skins for that champion than the beloved humans. This isn't bashing the fact that happens, it makes sense for both consumer and producer, and I know you guys are conscientiously trying to support the less played champions with skins too. Just an observation, maybe it less interacts with designing champions but more with designing cosmetics. Its harder to make a non humanoid have more desirable thematic and have more a playerbase to buy said thematics.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 11
Is it possible sometime in the future to get a look at what riots view are on the different jungle classes, and how the game supports them (different gamelength metas, jungle paths, jungle items, etc.) I'd like know what you think are the strength and weaknesses are of jungle subclasses
: I don't think I've ever hated a champion as much as Sylas
I really don't get the r hate, he's just copying the ultimate you already have. As long as no conversion to AP ult is busted, his kit is rather fine maybe aside from e heal when low. If the thematic of the champ doesn't appeal to you that's fine, I personally think he's pretty iconic already (champs like pyke and kaisa aren't really iconic but have great gameplay)
: Position ranks and split rewards coming to PBE today for 9.2!
how does this interact with role swaps in champ select? Thanks for the post <3. will be testing!
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 9
hey meddler, seeing that you are working on buffs to sunfire (which is great, i missed the item), is cinderhulk on a radar too? Also where has taliyah fallen for both mid and jungle after the holidays? Thanks for these posts <3
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 5
Hey meddler how do you think taliyah is doing in both mid and jg and is she on any radar?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 22
So meddler do you want to support taliyah jungle as a permanent thing or is it completely secondary to mid taliyah. Sucks when new champs come in then end up considered unhealthy and removed out, just wondering thoughts on taliyah jungle overall.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 26
With taliyah changes allowing her to jg, the mid season changes to bot, and all these flex picks coming out at world's; how do you guys deal with this in terms of where you think a champion should belong? I remember the zyra and morg jg attempts and was wondering 1 did u intend for tali to be viable in the jg? And 2 do u guys want to support flex roles for a majority of champions going forward, to the level of things like heim bot or tali jg?
: It's because a lot of people start talisman and his Q and throw is axes back and forth through camps to clear them
> [{quoted}](name=Zane Zephyr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vTIT4s1u,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-02T03:24:12.341+0000) > > It&#x27;s because a lot of people start talisman and his Q and throw is axes back and forth through camps to clear them Yea maybe it's more user friendly even though it is not the most ideal with experience, I can see that side, I just don't personally like it.
: Talisman is far superior on olaf than machete when most of your clear damage is from axes and gives you mana. Flip side problem is they show machete as the starting jg item for Diana
> [{quoted}](name=ForFoxSakes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vTIT4s1u,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-01T21:58:01.958+0000) > > Talisman is far superior on olaf than machete when most of your clear damage is from axes and gives you mana. > > Flip side problem is they show machete as the starting jg item for Diana There used to be a time where clear speed and health were higher with talisman but that's not the current case and his speed comes from attack speed in my opinion and what you see from pros
Comentários de Rioters
: Yep, you can double down on one option! AD x 2 and 1 Armor AS x2 and 1 MR etc
> [{quoted}](name=Riot MapleNectar,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIUyiwdc,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-09-28T17:34:29.653+0000) > > Yep, you can double down on one option! > AD x 2 and 1 Armor > AS x2 and 1 MR etc Does that mean scaling cd is 5%? Or 10 and u go double have 20%, go transcendence and only need like a supp item for 40% (45% with inspiration rune ) Another note is most of the other runes are fine with the change but transcendence imo cause cdr is so capped and u had no way outside inspiration to get cdr from the runes, but now you do, so is there any talk changing that one or something?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 22
What are your thoughts on taliyah jungle. She achieves all the boxes for how a mage jungler should probably work, but it sucks for her playerbase who wants her in the mid lane. Thoughts on her current state and mages in the jungle in general?
: Jungle is Worse than Ever
Give junglers incentives to counterjungle/ invade the enemy jungler and kill them, make camps spawn faster but give less exp. The scuttle change probably isnt that negative in lower elos where priority in lanes is a less grasped upon concept but still sucks if they ever do have priority and roam. But most importantly this isnt the game top and mid want to play they wanna face their lane and this isnt the game junglers want to play.
Novalas (NA)
: PBE Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.11
thoughts on supp champs like karma janna soraka being more poke supps than defensive enchanters, seems the champs r good early in lane and good lategame with itemization and peel. It seems this part of the supp lacks a bad point in the game.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 16
@meddler whats your opinion on pyke if support is not his best role. I understand the intent was an assassin support, but it is very niche, and hes a very blitzcrank bard champ, champ that brings little presence to lane and requires playmaking as his only way to be effective. If he can support fine, but is super niche, but can be viable in another role and be more apparent (not toxic like tahm kench or ekko in other lanes) will the design team accept that? Or is it very important for a champions intended role to be the role they are best at. Its been a long time since a champion was designed to be in one role and they ended up being better in anohter and I'm wondering how against that riot is.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 4
Thoughts on the second tree for domination I feel it's super dull and doesn't offer much to those wanting to go domination. Zombie ward is so dominant and maybe a tree for vision which is really a primary focus for jg and supp is too limiting. If I want improved vision u can go ingenious hunter for lower trinket. If zombie ward is worth keeping maybe it should be in inspiration somewhere. Maybe if domination tree had more tools it could give assassins more choice, make zombie not a must pick, and allow others to get benefits. Just my thoughts it's the weakest tree in the entire system
Novalas (NA)
: PBE Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.10
Thoughts on the new ap jg item changes. What are your thoughts on how often the ap jg item gets changed to try to benefit all ap users. Do you think the game would benefit from 2 different ap items (maybes iteration of echoes and runeglaive, or a revolver item) rather than trying to fit the whole class with 1 item?
: 8.10 Jungle Changes - Iteration and Additional Context
Changes look good so far I think camps lower spawn offer more choice in the jg as long as the exp and gold is moderated! About the ap jg item change, in my view it seems ap junglers have always had an issue where 2 classes play in the jungle rather than 1. While champs like nid and elise overstep the boundaries, there is usually mages and skirmishers in the ap role. In the past champs like diana, ekko, fizz, even kayle sometimes, benefitted from items like runeglaive, whereas with the new ap item changes champs like karthus, malz, morg, zyra, fiddle can benefit from it. Its very understandable that only few champions truly got full benefit from runic echoes in the current state but it seems that some champions will always sort of lose out. Has the idea of two ap items ever come up, possibly runeglaive or even a revolver like item that could help out champs like the former, and if it has no mana champs like akali, rumble, bruiser versions of the ap tanks as well. It just seems over the history theres always some losers for ap junglers and maybe they need to be opened up instead of constant changes to ap jg item. Nid elise and eve will always find some way to use the current ap item, so its more about the others and the previous stated goal of opening the jungle, and I feel the way you truly open it is give more types of champs the chance. I understand there was a reason runeglaive was removed cause some champions used it way better as well as some laners but I feel with the current changes something could go right here. (also u buffed ap shy maybe a revolver item would help her too :P)
: @Riot Sotere I've been a Jungle main 8 years, your changes are the worst idea I have ever seen.
Jungle player since season 3 here: I personally have no issue with the scuttle change as an **option** for junglers in the early game, its something that gets early junglers to have that early gank they currently have at the risk of combat with another jg. I can see the issue with jglers ganking at like 2:30-2:40 and that should probably be pushed back to around 3:15, i can agree with this. My issue is the change isnt a shift but more a straight muzzle on early jungle power. IMO what should also be paired with this is the promotion of other options. I personally dont understand why so many of the dragons lack upfront benefits and more are late game, stacked ramps. I understand that the point is securing multiple dragons as a win condition for late but it should also be a opportunity early to get some power. The only time you really see people go for early dragons is ocean because it actually does a lot early or infernal because the perceived power of this dragon is very high. I dont know if dragons should reward some early permanent stats of some kind or give more gold/exp but something that makes them a better option in the early to mid game would be welcomed. In addition, in the current meta a lot of junglers can sit in brushes near some lane and not really be punished for it because of how long jungle camp timers are. Even if you have vision of the jungler sitting bot, sometimes he can just sit there for 30 secs pressuring x lane and not really be punished because the other quadrant of his jungle hasn't even spawned yet. Coming back to the scuttle change, while getting scuttler would definitely snowball the jungler who can take it, I feel it might be too punishing to fight for it in the current state. Lets say both junglers fight for scuttle, one kills the other and gets scuttle. Well this jungle probably has secured lv 3 to lv2, secured first blood, is a camp ahead, and could possibly invade that quadrant of the dead jungler and take a camp, securing a pretty disgusting lead. If that jungle then backs and sits in the next quadrant, he can possibly devastate the entire game (looking at champs like graves, olaf). IMO this is way too punishing and pushes a lot of later scaling champs out instead of opening the jungle to more strategy/options. Camps should probably spawn more often with some rebalance of gold/exp so that 1) if you are weaker or lose contest on scuttle you cannot be shut out hard by an early jungle, 2) allow power farmers/ behind junglers an avenue out of the early game, 3) keep junglers in the jungle and take some downtime to relieve pressure on laners in early game, 4) allow jungling to be satisfying and diverse that all jungle players will feel they are supported. The rift herald buff slated to come out and the baron changes also seem to be pretty good for for middle game state which is ok but again thats just one path and I feel the game for junglers would feel much better if there was a little grey area in the ways to win through jungle. I feel my proposed additional changes benefit laners so that there is both a minor delay on early ganks (outside of lv2 no luck with those laners :P) and less lane camping uptime for junglers. The changes benefit junglers because it allows early junglers to get a lead on their opponent and the opportunity to create some pressure (whether invading or ganking), allow behind junglers/ farm junglers a clearer path through the mid game, allow the option of counter jungling cause higher camp uptime, and allows more powerful early/ mid game options with dragons/ rift herald.
: I recently talked about them with their original designer, Wrekz, and he had some thoughts as to how to get them to a more enjoyable experience. On his list of suggestions, he suggested stuff like (straight from the proposal he sent me): * Generally making marks a bit easier to acquire, but a bit less powerful per mark. * Marks being able to spawn in either jungle, rather than only the opponents'. * Reducing mark warm-up time on enemy champions to try and get a cleaner balance between champion and jungle marks. * Removing W -> Q interaction and just having Q's cooldown reduced when it hits a champion or monster. * Increasing W radius to let Wolf feel more useful instead of it being primarily a mobility enabler. * Or some other effect to accomplish the same goal of making Wolf feel more useful. * Possibly just base 550 range instead of the increasing range with marks. * If the above are a too powerful, probably some base stat or damage nerfs here and there. I'm mostly open to stuff like this being tested, though there's a lot going on here, so it could take some time to validate. If we felt more confident there was a specific kind of work that would be exciting to Kindred players as well as a pretty clear path forward, that would increase the likelihood we would take on the work. We get a lot of requests to do these champ readjustments, so frequently it's a matter of when there's resources to do it more-so than a desire to test something out. I (and others on the design teams) do tend to love these types of explorations, however, so when we do have that clearer goal to go chase, it's usually possible to get someone on board with going for it.
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=yWEr6aRN,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-04-20T17:20:54.741+0000) > > I recently talked about them with their original designer, Wrekz, and he had some thoughts as to how to get them to a more enjoyable experience. On his list of suggestions, he suggested stuff like (straight from the proposal he sent me): > > * Generally making marks a bit easier to acquire, but a bit less powerful per mark. > * Marks being able to spawn in either jungle, rather than only the opponents&#x27;. > * Reducing mark warm-up time on enemy champions to try and get a cleaner balance between champion and jungle marks. > * Removing W -&gt; Q interaction and just having Q&#x27;s cooldown reduced when it hits a champion or monster. > * Increasing W radius to let Wolf feel more useful instead of it being primarily a mobility enabler. > * Or some other effect to accomplish the same goal of making Wolf feel more useful. > * Possibly just base 550 range instead of the increasing range with marks. > * If the above are a too powerful, probably some base stat or damage nerfs here and there. > > I&#x27;m mostly open to stuff like this being tested, though there&#x27;s a lot going on here, so it could take some time to validate. If we felt more confident there was a specific kind of work that would be exciting to Kindred players as well as a pretty clear path forward, that would increase the likelihood we would take on the work. We get a lot of requests to do these champ readjustments, so frequently it&#x27;s a matter of when there&#x27;s resources to do it more-so than a desire to test something out. I (and others on the design teams) do tend to love these types of explorations, however, so when we do have that clearer goal to go chase, it&#x27;s usually possible to get someone on board with going for it. Has letting her q count towards her e ever come up as an option, I feel it would make her e execute feel good and power in q would also feel really good for kindred players like myself if her q is changed to be like kaisa e
Novalas (NA)
: Having spoke to Live Gameplay, there wasn't enough time to work on the changelist so the list got scrapped for 8.8. It's possible that we'll look into Pantheon work in the future. He certainly is on the radar! (Despite the post being about PBE related concerns, you should still post if you have any gameplay concerns - we're more than happy to talk about it if we have time/context).
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oYqIA0zf,comment-id=00440000,timestamp=2018-04-19T18:23:21.880+0000) > > Having spoke to Live Gameplay, there wasn&#x27;t enough time to work on the changelist so the list got scrapped for 8.8. It&#x27;s possible that we&#x27;ll look into Pantheon work in the future. He certainly is on the radar! > > (Despite the post being about PBE related concerns, you should still post if you have any gameplay concerns - we&#x27;re more than happy to talk about it if we have time/context). Speaking of pantheon and a lot of other champs getting changes to allow multiple roles, what do you think of pantheon jg? It was my most played of that season and I loved the early pressure.
: Your comparison isn't valid because you ignored the parts of Kha'Zix's list that were nerfs in order to better prove your point to people that weren't fully informed of what the complete set of changes was. Kha'Zix had power funneled into his core gameplay loop and out of other powerful, but less visible things like his early clear speeds and safety.
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vB2zHqyM,comment-id=000d00030000,timestamp=2018-04-11T20:50:21.801+0000) > > Your comparison isn&#x27;t valid because you ignored the parts of Kha&#x27;Zix&#x27;s list that were nerfs in order to better prove your point to people that weren&#x27;t fully informed of what the complete set of changes was. Kha&#x27;Zix had power funneled into his core gameplay loop and out of other powerful, but less visible things like his early clear speeds and safety. This isn't really about the duskblade compensation but more as kha as a whole, with the assassin rework his ult now gives perma true invis when passing through brushes which isnt necessarily overpowered but feels very bad for some people to play against. Im a jg main and have played kha in the past and much prefered the ew tiamat one shots jump in jump out style but understand some people like the new one so im not against it. Just wondering if his passive stealth is one of those "zoe" like things where its not busted but feels terrible for most laners to play against and might need better counterplay like making it camo? just wondering if its ever come up.
: What should his passive be? Most of the ideas I've heard in the past (internally and/or externally) usually have some significant downside to it, whether that be: * Expensive to develop * Overly complex and/or significantly altering his playstyle (which his current players likely enjoy) * Needing to sap power out of the current most powerful parts of his kit
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xJmqUBog,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-03-27T22:15:43.049+0000) > > What should his passive be? Most of the ideas I&#x27;ve heard in the past (internally and/or externally) usually have some significant downside to it, whether that be: > > * Expensive to develop > * Overly complex and/or significantly altering his playstyle (which his current players likely enjoy) > * Needing to sap power out of the current most powerful parts of his kit Im just curious how a power level comparison between duking and recent divers looks like. It seems to me his ultimate eats so much of his power budget because of it's potential team fight abilities. His e is pretty similar to other diver tools his w is pretty unique but not the best survivability tool and his q is pretty solid. Passive definitely falls short. I'm just curious on how his power budget falls compared to other champs and if it is significantly held by ult maybe he does need power shifts.
: As a jungler and support, its an ADC "meta"
As a jungle player my biggest issue is I'm not really thinking of how I can snowball myself and instead thinking of how can i put my teammates in a position where they have the least chance of throwing the game. Its almost always to aim for first turret, which is easiest in bot lane, and snowball the adc who can kill more turrets and get more gold. Setting the enemy jungler doesn't really matter, being 5/0 doesnt really matter, securing all the dragons doesnt really matter. Getting as many turrets as possible and securing baron are the easiest and probably the strongest way to win the game. I just wanna be able to have the playstyle of if i want i can hard pop off and 1v1 anyone, or if i want i can gank, get a mid top or ad carry ahead, and help them win the game.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 21
@meddler any progress on the if changes to both the jg/champs. Also will you give a post on the plans for midseason update as it approaches or wait till the patch is more fully realized? Love these posts no matter what though keep it up!
: How can we fix Nautilus discussion?
naut hasnt been meta since the days of the aoe purple smite (forgot its name) because his clear speed sucks and can be taken advantage of. He'd prob be fine top with sunfire cape buffs (and so would champs like shen and poppy who r less dominant than the righteous glory tanks). Maybe mana cost reduction on e (sion exists with his e which is really similar in clear but also pokes insane). helping him in jg is harder.
: Your'e going with the assumption we would just give people more gold. Tactics can be super broad here. What if we made everything worth less gold (turrets, minions, monsters, objectives), but then amped up kill gold and bounty gold? Not saying we'd do exactly that, but this doesn't just have to be a net increase in gold income.
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EeKjJENI,comment-id=0005000b0000,timestamp=2018-03-18T18:20:18.622+0000) > > Your&#x27;e going with the assumption we would just give people more gold. Tactics can be super broad here. What if we made everything worth less gold (turrets, minions, monsters, objectives), but then amped up kill gold and bounty gold? Not saying we&#x27;d do exactly that, but this doesn&#x27;t just have to be a net increase in gold income. I wondering what are the teams thought on first turret gold and bot turret being easier for bot laners to break than other turrets. I remember the change being to eliminate early rotations in pro scene only, but it seems to me it has led to bot lane being a huge focus for the best flat stat (gold) snowball, adcs getting a lot of gold fast (from like solo gold turret kill), and earlier rotations from bot to top in all ranked modes and just not pro play. It delayed rotations a little bit but if bot turret falls doesnt it basically end top laning phase and begin this turret snowball of adcs just objective breaking with their gold lead they get from bottom lane. IDK if this is the case based on stats or anything but just curious how the team sees this change looking back on it.
: This is super timely. Repertoir brought this up late yesterday as a potential area we could investigate/adjust. We're going to do some analysis on all the sources of gold income for positions, champions, mmr etc, and then see of there's some ripe opportunity there. Nothing to talk about as of yet, and the end result may be we don't change anything, but we're going to be looking st this in the super near future. Great thoughts!
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EeKjJENI,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-03-17T16:51:39.159+0000) > > This is super timely. Repertoir brought this up late yesterday as a potential area we could investigate/adjust. We&#x27;re going to do some analysis on all the sources of gold income for positions, champions, mmr etc, and then see of there&#x27;s some ripe opportunity there. Nothing to talk about as of yet, and the end result may be we don&#x27;t change anything, but we&#x27;re going to be looking st this in the super near future. Great thoughts! Does that only include things like kills or would things like first turret be looked at. Im just curious at how prioritized and how much impact first turret has and how often that turret is bot lane. Even if it's not as impactful the perceived power of most gold the easiest way is from bot lane. I think large objectives like heralds and dragons to be looked at as ways for teams to get immediate power instead of almost all trades of turrets vs anything but baron being favorable for the turret. Maybe major objectives should give some gold, maybe things like dragon could give immediate flat stats and not just percents. Maybe some turrets need to be worth more than others idk I just feel the perceived snowball u can get from not winning bot lane is really high.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 16
Would a pass to struggling junglers happen closer to mid season or is it gonna be a gradual pass?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 14
When do you expect a pass on junglers, will it be a 8.8 or more mid season time frame?
: It's possible that a good number of champions don't have good kits for jungling, but there are others that do have good kits for jungling but don't have good itemization for the jungle because their jungle item is tuned around being a mana item while also not functioning as a real mana item the way laning AP's have their mana items. As a result, these AP champions need to spend the money and power budget for 2 mana items when they should only be spending money and power budget on 1 the way laning AP's do, or spend their money and power budget for 1 mana item and either not get the power spike other types of junglers do or have mana problems 5 minutes after buying your mana item (or AFK farm and not help your team, which Riot distinctly wants to avoid). If we had a jungle AP item that didn't heavily favor the meta AP junglers and instead functioned as a real mana item, then we might have more diversity. But we don't, so we don't have any diversity.
> [{quoted}](name=Jungle Lux God,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mMhP3k7Z,comment-id=00010001000200000000000000020000000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-13T18:53:53.981+0000) > > It&#x27;s possible that a good number of champions don&#x27;t have good kits for jungling, but there are others that do have good kits for jungling but don&#x27;t have good itemization for the jungle because their jungle item is tuned around being a mana item while also not functioning as a real mana item the way laning AP&#x27;s have their mana items. > > As a result, these AP champions need to spend the money and power budget for 2 mana items when they should only be spending money and power budget on 1 the way laning AP&#x27;s do, or spend their money and power budget for 1 mana item and either not get the power spike other types of junglers do or have mana problems 5 minutes after buying your mana item (or AFK farm and not help your team, which Riot distinctly wants to avoid). > > If we had a jungle AP item that didn&#x27;t heavily favor the meta AP junglers and instead functioned as a real mana item, then we might have more diversity. But we don&#x27;t, so we don&#x27;t have any diversity. I'm just curious what champs you think could work in the jungle with this new mana item, when i think mage junglers i think things that were very niche for specific times like karthus/morg, what champs do u think could be enabled into the jungle in this mage category?
: Elise and Nidalee are bad examples of what a mage jungler should look like since they aren't technically mages while still having mage elements (they instead use their mage elements to fuel their intended playstyles of skirmisher and assassin, respectively). At the same time they are good examples of what a mage jungler should be balance around. Riot insists that AP junglers be balanced around mana gating, but Elise and Nidalee don't have to play by those rules since half their kits are manaless, and as a result are some of the strongest AP junglers in the game's history. We could actually see more AP junglers if Riot decided to reduce some of the mana gating that AP junglers have to deal with. Riot should look at laning AP's for inspiration. Laning AP's can buy a mana item their first back, so why shouldn't junglers be able to buy a mana item their first back? Runic Echoes is unreasonable for this purpose because it doesn't give enough mana for teamfighting, and it also favors champions that have strong early games which is exclusively Elise, Nidalee, and maybe Evelyn (I really don't know if she's good early game, someone who knows her better can be a better judge of that), at least among AP junglers. Why should the jungle item heavily favor champions that are already good in the jungle?
> [{quoted}](name=Jungle Lux God,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mMhP3k7Z,comment-id=000100010002000000000000000200000001,timestamp=2018-03-13T18:08:31.698+0000) > > Elise and Nidalee are bad examples of what a mage jungler should look like since they aren&#x27;t technically mages while still having mage elements (they instead use their mage elements to fuel their intended playstyles of skirmisher and assassin, respectively). At the same time they are good examples of what a mage jungler should be balance around. > > Riot insists that AP junglers be balanced around mana gating, but Elise and Nidalee don&#x27;t have to play by those rules since half their kits are manaless, and as a result are some of the strongest AP junglers in the game&#x27;s history. We could actually see more AP junglers if Riot decided to reduce some of the mana gating that AP junglers have to deal with. > > Riot should look at laning AP&#x27;s for inspiration. Laning AP&#x27;s can buy a mana item their first back, so why shouldn&#x27;t junglers be able to buy a mana item their first back? Runic Echoes is unreasonable for this purpose because it doesn&#x27;t give enough mana for teamfighting, and it also favors champions that have strong early games which is exclusively Elise, Nidalee, and maybe Evelyn (I really don&#x27;t know if she&#x27;s good early game, someone who knows her better can be a better judge of that), at least among AP junglers. Why should the jungle item heavily favor champions that are already good in the jungle? I dont know if mana gating should be something used in the jungle anymore, as you said champs like elise and nid don have much mana costs, and eve has a refunded ability on the ability used to proc her w. My guess is mana costs for champs that would be the "mage jungler" are just not too well designed, I don't feel itemization is the issue anymore. As riot said they r looking at the regen for junglers, but I think it might be more champs kit are not suited enough to jungling all the time. I think riot and the community need to talk about mage junglers (specifically who would that include) and whether they would want to change part of their kits in order to make them work in the jungle, and if that would affect their play in other places. Fiddlesticks is obv the best champ to be a mage jungler, and as a lot of people agree, needs some type of a rework. I think itemization for aps now is relatively good and options like rylais morellos lich liandrys spellbinders dcap void zhon and banshees r in pretty good spots and have situational uses based on game/champ.
FUNKyCAS (NA)
: The State of Ivern
i think ivern has an identity crisis. Hes a enchanter supp in the jg but also a counter jungler and engage tank. Narrow in on who he is. Is he supposed to be a pocket the adc, objective controler. Is he supposed to be a counter jungler who becomes a second support. Is meant to be a teamfighter peeler. He has many things he can do and has an identity as the "support" jungler but what does that actually translate to, so far hes had issues in being opressive and being stupidly weak.
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