: Mage items
Most mages would want something like {{item:3285}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3089}} with the order generally being depending on the match up, or how far you are ahead/behind etc. But it's generally the "Core" for most mages. Though some times you might not need both Morello + Void, as if you are facing a full squishy team then the Void wouldn't really be needed. In that case you can replace it for {{item:3116}} or if you auto enough in your kit then maybe {{item:3100}}. And then there is some champions who prefer {{item:3003}} over {{item:3285}} or might need {{item:3027}} {{item:3003}} as their first items like {{champion:34}}. As for when to buy {{item:3089}}, it depends on what the match up and team comp is. You would generally have the 1-2 items that your champion generally needs to rush (Like some might be RoA, or Luden's, or Archangel). After that you have to look at what you are facing, if you are facing a decent amount of squishy champions or the enemy heals a lot, then grab Morello next. If you are facing a decent amount of AD champs OR their ADC is getting fed then buy Zhonya's (also bonus if your champion has synergy with Zhonyas to). If you are facing a strong bursty mage (or the enemy team has a lot of AP or heavy CC) then grab Banshees Veil. If the enemy has people stacking MR then buy Void staff. After looking through all of that and deciding if you need the item or not, then you can grab Deathcap. Though as for a general guide, I'd say as your 4th fully completed item + Boots. So basically, I'd say get your completed boots and 3 more items before getting Deathcap. Unless you are a head and pretty fed, then you can grab it as your 3rd completed item.
: Can kalista get a quality of life change for her "E" (Rend) to let the player know when it will kill
I don't really think they can do that, since the damage of rend is still got to go through the targets armor so it'll be hard to make it where it'll show you when it can kill a target. Since your target can have either no armor, or might have a few hundred, it would be hard to make the game calculate that with the rends damage in the health bar. Champions like {{champion:31}} {{champion:555}} can have that indicator because Cho's is true damage and Pyke's is an actual execute like I believe {{champion:6}} was and had an indicator which is also true damage on them.
: {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}} Was a really entertaining read, especially this part: >COULD YOU IMAGINE NARUTO IF HIS FKING CLONES COULD NOT BLOCK FOR HIM FOR THE FIRST .5 SECONDS WELL HE WOULD DIE!!! HE WOULD DO RIOT!! AND YOU KILLED HIM! WHAT NEXT RIOT GOING AFTER GOKU NEXT? _________________ Is it really true that Neekos clone does not block spells, tho? I was fairly sure it does.
Her clones can block spells, but it's after a 0.5 second delay or some amount of delay, during that delay, the clone can't take damage or get hit by anything. But yea, if you time it right, you can block stuff like even {{champion:51}} ult. It's also nice for when you are facing champions who put out a "trap" like attack like {{champion:51}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:142}} the clone can take it for you if you know when to use it.
: I mained top last season and I'm by no means amazing (first season I actually played ranked) but I welcome ranged champs in the top lane. For me it's an easy win if you know how to play against them. Solid wave management, itemization, match up knowledge, and knowing when you go all in is very important. You have to take your time as well, I cant stress this enough. And this is without even having JG camp them. Also just as important is just not losing lane. I know I know easier said than done. It's an acquired skill, one I haven't fully mastered ( lowly silver :/ ) but it's possible. Also I main Ornn and building Tabis in lane against a top ADC is so satisfying. Lull them into a false sense of security then ORNNNNNNN at 6 lol They can be horrible matches buddy trust me I know, but at the end of the day I welcome champ diversity. Without it, this game would be pretty boring. I hoped this helped somewhat and I'm sure youtube has more in depth tutorials for dealing with ranged top so check them out. Good luck and have fun!
Exactly, it's one thing that a lot of people need to realize that even just going even with a ranged top laner and not feeding them when you are a melee champion (especially a tank) actually means you got out of lane in a better position and will offer more to your team then they would. Now it's a different story if you are playing a top laner who needs to win early and falls off like {{champion:80}} {{champion:58}} where they rely on being a bully in the early game and kind of feel eh if they don't get fed, I understand the issues of playing them into a ranged champion. Though I've played Renekton into ranged quite a bit, and he really has no problem against a lot of ranged champions lol. But as my top laners are generally {{champion:78}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:98}} I don't really care to much about facing ranged top laners to much. If it's a really rough match up that I can't really fight, I could just sit under turret if needed and farm and not feed them. I may end up with a little less CS than them, but in the end, they won't be to much ahead of me and when team fights come around, I'll offer more to their team (well depending on which ranged top laner it is) and I'll at least be able to do my job as a tank. Though I do main mid lane, but Top lane is my secondary role, so I don't play top as much as top lane mains do so the issues could be worse than what I experienced.
: Mobile champions need downsides.
I don't know, I actually think {{champion:142}}'s R is not the most balanced movement ability. While yes she going back to her old spot is a way to counter her and is a good weakness, but I think the fact that she will ALWAYS goes back to her old spot is not balanced, so hitting her with CC when she ults into you doesn't mean anything unless you have some one else near her original spot to flank her or your CC is strong enough to actually make use of it. It's honestly the main reason why I literally hate that champion to death. Yes her damage is insanely high and her Sleep is strong but I'm fine with that if I felt like I can actually punish her for her ulting forward into the enemy team....I mean outside of killing her in the 0.5 seconds or 1 second she jumps into us, which is like what? Maybe 1 skill? depending on the champion anyways. But I do agree with what you said overall though, a lot of champions really don't lose anything for having that mobility. Champions who have some strong mechanic like that over others, should have a trade off. An example is as an {{champion:34}} main, her egg is her "mechanic" or advantage that is complained about from time to time, but her tradeoff for it is having the lowest HP in the game (at level 1, and the lowest HP at level 18 from all Mages) on top of having no mobility or speed ups and the lowest movement speed. So she pays a lot to have what she has, which is something that should happen more often.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: It wasn't really just "added"... She used to be able to auto attack and cast abilities during her ult... Now she can't attack but dishes out that aoe damage. Btw i honestly don't think neeko is a good champion.. I really don't... She's outclassed by literally every burst mage in the game. My full opinion about neeko: https://boards.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/Wz3AXEi6-neeko-is-garbage
> [{quoted}](name=JuiceBoxP,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=24ANaI9t,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-03-05T20:32:39.300+0000) > > It wasn't really just "added"... She used to be able to auto attack and cast abilities during her ult... Now she can't attack but dishes out that aoe damage. > > > Btw i honestly don't think neeko is a good champion.. I really don't... She's outclassed by literally every burst mage in the game. > > My full opinion about neeko: > https://boards.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/Wz3AXEi6-neeko-is-garbage Ah she can't attack when she uses her ultimate? I missed that and didn't notice, then it kind of makes sense for that to be there. As for the Neeko, she does need some work and I will agree with what you said about her W, it is hard to really "fool" anyone with it and is just used for either for the Stealth/Movement speed or for the passive for On-hit Neeko, not really for trying to fool enemies unless they panic. Now I can her W working very well if you used it from un-warded areas, say for example you have a {{champion:72}} as your jungler and you go bot lane disguised as him and sit in bot lane bushes. Then just press W from there, and the enemy team just see's a random fast Skarner come out of the bush running into them, could be a fun little way to force {{summoner:4}}. I'm saying that situation because I duo with a friend of mine who is a Skarner 1-trick lol. But yea, her Disguise into W isn't really going to trick anyone, unless maybe you disguise into some one on your team who has a speed up. But the enemy team see'ing a {{champion:81}} running into the enemy team with a movement speed buff isn't going to do anything.
94372148 (NA)
: What do all these anti-fun champions have in common?
{{champion:103}} is not even that bad though. I have no problem facing her, though I will admit that her charm does feel like its longer than her skill says at times lol but outside that, I have no problem with her as a champion and generally like facing her.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: So kayle's reworked ult is just a better neeko ult?
It's funny that all these replies are about Neeko having X different strengths or that her kit is good, or that her Ultimate has all this other stuff that Kayle's doesn't....yet she isn't played lol. I picked her up as my 2nd main, and I've played a lot of games this past month or 2, and I've only seen her picked 2 times this past month (outside of the games I played her ofc) and only seen her banned 1 time in 2 months. Even if you want actual numbers, her Mid lane pick rate is 1%, and her support is 0.63% (Shes not even listed for Top lane). Shes a good champion, but no one really gives her a chance it seems lol. But to be on topic: Yea I really don't get why Riot added that part to Kayle's ultimate. Her ultimate was already strong enough with just the 2-3 seconds of Invulnerability, and they added a strong AoE nuke to it, just seems not really needed.
: Kog'Maw, Kai'sa, sometimes Lulu.
{{champion:518}} could also be considered one as well
: Iron Ideas: Attack Speed on Mages
If you really wanted to take turrets faster as a Mage, you would be better off just getting {{item:3100}} as that'll give you more damage on the turrets while also not really harming your overall dps on the mage. With that said, Nashor's is a good AP item and can be strong on a lot of mages, generally ones that have a use for auto attacking a lot to proc stuff. These are the mages that either do Build it or can build it in one of their builds: {{champion:268}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:17}} and then there is a sort of mage like {{champion:10}}. I mean there are some champions where it is viable like {{champion:61}} and now even {{champion:102}} is starting to go AP a lot and building it (tho I know shes not a mage lol). You might be able to build it on {{champion:85}} {{champion:432}} though personally I don't rem seeing anyone building it on them but I can see it doing decent. But yea, as some of the other posts have mentioned, its generally because of the difference in range that's why a lot of the mages don't build it. Also if they're kit isn't really revolving around auto attacks much, then they don't want to waste gold building items that relies on you doing that. While it is true that mages auto attack during their spell's rotation, but going for Nashor's will cut away gold from either getting more Magic Pen like {{item:3165}} {{item:3135}} or away from safety like {{item:3157}} {{item:3102}}.
: On Hit Neeko
Thanks for the replies, it's nice to see some answers considering that it feels she is really unpopular or at least rarely picked. I could play her top lane, though personally, I don't like playing ranged champions top into melee. Since I'm generally one that also complains about being melee into ranged, I'd feel really bad and like a hypocrite if I complain about ranged top laners and then pick some one ranged into melee. So I usually only play ranged top lane when the enemy does, though I guess I could still do it then as I feel AP/AS Neeko would still do pretty well into some of the top lane ranged champions {{champion:150}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:8}} just as long as I don't play her into someone like {{champion:126}} {{champion:17}}. But yea I'll probably stick to mainly playing Burst Neeko mid lane, unless I'm going Top/ADC. Though maybe when I play her mid lane and the enemy team picks a heavier tank team then I can see going on hit, as burst Neeko probably wouldn't do so well into a really tanky team, where On hit would prob do very well late game.
Comentários de Rioters
: Eh, I have to say that I don't like the design of her W. It gives her too much agency in alot of match ups. There are quite some champions which have a single gap closer in their kit and her W can simply deny it with the press of a button. And since the skill does not alot else, there is not really a good way to bait it beforehands. So in the end it means there are quite alot match ups for her in which she is the only one dictating when to fight. If you try to engage on her and she doesn't want to, she just goes "nah, dude, you can't".
While that's true but she is much healthier than she was pre rework which to me makes her a healthy rework. Maybe shes not entirely healthy in a general balance state, as when shes strong she is insanely strong and can be generally hard to balance overall but her kit is much healthier to face.
: Her shroud is literally weaker than old Akali shroud. Sure I agree she shouldn't be invis under tower, but the 8.24b nerfs and older nerfs had destroyed her shroud. I never said it was nerfed hard, the ultimate is really toxic to Akali. If you get gunblade or death dance (Which I build). Pretty much every time I have my ult I get kills, old Akali didn't have that problem since she was reliant on her Q and PASSIVE to do damage not her ult. "Semi hard nerf". Ho ho ho, no it isn't semi hard nerf as you say, sir. She was utterly gutted and stats back me up too, check it on what ever you check stats, lolalytics and op.gg is what I check. She has damage, it's the burst that is really really bad as an assassin. The heal obliterated her, because she was reliant on it to survive laning phase, duels, skimrishes and team fights. Triple dash + Heal = Akali. Shroud ≠ Akali. Shroud was never the identity of Akali, at least the old one. Old Akali was played by most for her heal, satisfying Q and her ultimate. Not for her shroud.
Being honest I didn't completely hate her heal in itself, I just hated how it basically nullify bad match ups and made her laning phase a little to easy on her on poor match ups. With that said, her healing DID need to go or at least take a hit but I do agree that her lack of healing for team fights and skirmishes in the Mid/Late game is pretty huge and probably needs something to fix that. All her other nerfs she received I've more or less agree with and personally don't think any other nerf she received outside of removing the Q heal had any real impact on her current state. As she was still doing pretty well before her changes in patch 9.3 which was obviously the turret revealing and removing Q heal. Maybe what they should do is just add the heal back but put it on her Passive where it increases as she gains levels. That way she can still have very weak heals in her lane phase and have that weakness that can be abused by the enemy laner but by the time she starts to approach level 9+ and the Mid game and team fights start rolling around she can have a decent heal at least. While I hated fighting her and found her really annoying to fight, I'd much rather fight her than {{champion:238}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:142}} and it's tiring to see mostly those champions being played mid. As my only real problem with Akali was invisible under turrets and the amount she healed in lane so nerfing it in lane but then having it still be decently strong in team fights is fine with me
: It was funny. The player base was like “make akali take turret shots,” and so it was done. But then Riot went crazy and took away the heal.
> [{quoted}](name=JeaneGreene,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jT79JYEa,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-02-24T16:23:23.441+0000) > > It was funny. The player base was like “make akali take turret shots,” and so it was done. But then Riot went crazy and took away the heal. I mean her healing was a bit much, and gave her way to much power in the lane even for losing lane match ups for her. Even was mentioned a lot in LCS matches when she was put up against un-favorable match ups to just sit back and farm and heal off of Q. It allowed her to easily just ignore and survive the lane phase to get her {{item:3146}} and level 6. So they removed her healing to actually give her a weakness the enemy laner can expose.
: Yeah, he is probably the best and healthiest rework they have done yet. ^^
> [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jT79JYEa,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T15:17:35.818+0000) > > Yeah, he is probably the best and healthiest rework they have done yet. ^^ I'd also put {{champion:78}} up there, though she did have that small phase where she was a little overpowered and stuff lol. But I feel her kit is healthy at least (at least compared to most reworks lol). Though I'm biased as she's my top lane champion
: Her shroud is gutted, her E can be easily dodged and her ultimate is extremely slow burst. The only thing that has virtually low counter play is her passive and Q. Healing was the only thing that is a remnant of old Akali and they removed her, her shroud is unrecognizable and now she is a new champion. I can't even call it a rework this point lmao.
> [{quoted}](name=VolatileAkali,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mIEROPlu,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-02-24T11:10:16.713+0000) > > Her shroud is gutted, her E can be easily dodged and her ultimate is extremely slow burst. The only thing that has virtually low counter play is her passive and Q. > > Healing was the only thing that is a remnant of old Akali and they removed her, her shroud is unrecognizable and now she is a new champion. I can't even call it a rework this point lmao. Her shroud isn't gutted, all they did when they nerfed her was make it so turrets can reveal her which should of been like that from the beginning, and increased her CD of max rank by 2 seconds. No champion should be completely invisible to the turret, especially one that had the chance to attack and then re-enter stealth again for like 6+ seconds like she did. Her E had no changes and Ult had very little changes ever since she was reworked and it's nothing big enough to complain about it now since it was only like losing 25 base damage at max rank "oh no massive nerf there". The only real meaningful nerf she received at all since her rework was the one she got which put her in this state and that's the Shroud nerfs and Q not healing her. For a champion that had a massively high play rate, really high win rate and was basically almost must pick/ban in LCS in probably most regions and only really had 1 semi hard nerf to drop her down to lowest win rate atm, it's actually kind of funny. Her damage wasn't nerfed at all so she can still obliterate people but now she has a clear weakness of her laning phase which can now actually be punished.
Scrai (EUW)
: If your planning to nerf riven i suggest you nerf renkton along with it
So basically you're bad at that match up and just think {{champion:58}} is broken because you can't beat him with {{champion:92}}?
: On the topic of the Akali nerfs....
They did it because she needed a time in the game where she's weak, and has a chance for the enemy to counter and abuse. Now her lane phase is weaker, giving her opponent time to actually fight her before she gets her first item which is usually always {{item:3146}}. With that said, maybe it was a bit overkill for her healing to be completely removed but she did need some form of weakness.
: it has not even been a week. thats like saying vayne has an 80% win rate and then nerf her q, w, e, r, slow the aa speed, and decrease her damage and then it being 3 days later and the winrate is 78% and saying "WELP... she needs another nerf" after gutting her.
> [{quoted}](name=IGetTrashTeamsGG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oipqJNgU,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-02-23T17:24:01.306+0000) > > it has not even been a week. thats like saying vayne has an 80% win rate and then nerf her q, w, e, r, slow the aa speed, and decrease her damage and then it being 3 days later and the winrate is 78% and saying "WELP... she needs another nerf" after gutting her. Yea it's not even been a week and you declaring that his nerf was to harsh, did you just play 1 or 2 games with him and did poorly with him and assumed he's trash now? He is still seeing **a lot **of success despite the nerfs so maybe it's just you having problems with adjusting to it and not the champ being weak. Also you can still get enough information from just a few days, while yes it's best to wait at least a week to really judge accurately but you can still see the base strength of things in a few days. Take Conquer for example of that, Riot hotfixed nerfed that after just like 2 days because it was so strong.
: yasuo nerf needs to be undone.
He still has a really high play rate, ban rate and even has a really high win rate even after the "nerfs". If he is such a hard champion to play and master, he shouldn't have a really high win rate, so maybe the nerfs didn't go far enough.
: The choices given are biased. The warning was given presumably under the notion of equal protection. It supposed to be a friendly competitive game at the level they were playing. I can see why Riot would issue a warning over it. Regardless of how everyone feels about the women being there playing or whatever, it at least looks sexist because girls playing support is a meme in gaming. If they didn't issue the warning, I feel like people would have freaked out the other way about it. It wasn't an actual punishment. I think it was just a message in general. "Don't do this." Sort of a compromise to try to get a point across just in case it was sexist. There's no way to prove whether it was or wasn't. I think Riot was just being cautious, especially after the stuff they've been in the news for. They probably would have done something similar if there was a gay player stirring things up by playing then the first team they face bans the meme gay champs. Taric, Varus, Ez, etc.
> [{quoted}](name=Sweetheart Janna,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5wFAZ42y,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-23T05:23:13.235+0000) > > The choices given are biased. The warning was given presumably under the notion of equal protection. It supposed to be a friendly competitive game at the level they were playing. I can see why Riot would issue a warning over it. Regardless of how everyone feels about the women being there playing or whatever, it at least looks sexist because girls playing support is a meme in gaming. If they didn't issue the warning, I feel like people would have freaked out the other way about it. It wasn't an actual punishment. I think it was just a message in general. "Don't do this." Sort of a compromise to try to get a point across just in case it was sexist. There's no way to prove whether it was or wasn't. I think Riot was just being cautious, especially after the stuff they've been in the news for. > > They probably would have done something similar if there was a gay player stirring things up by playing then the first team they face bans the meme gay champs. Taric, Varus, Ez, etc. But 4 of those girls actually did main'd support and a team hitting a player's champion pool with 4 or 5 bans in the same role isn't completely unheard of as it's a nice strategy to do against a team's best laner. Given that they weren't all in comfortable roles as I've heard that only their Mid lane and Support player was in their actual roles, the other 3 aren't as experienced in the role they're playing. So throwing bans at them really doesn't feel worth it.
Saianna (EUNE)
: > First of all Intentionally Stretching out a game really isn't all that bad Tbh it's kinda dirty, not punishment worthy, but just dirty. They way like cat plays with the half dead mouse. I have it almost every game I lose (when my team wins I just rush to nexus and smack it untill it's over) because those guys just want to feel powerfull and farm frags like total assholes. In competitive scene.. The moment you add teams for progressive and diverse reasons, it's game over. Not that I care about it in the first place :P
Oh yea it definitely was dirty and I won't deny that, but as you said it shouldn't be punishment worthy and now it's going to make teams think they have to play with fear of getting punished for no reason in the back of their head. Say a team aces them but only has 2 people left of their team and now they might think "I'll take 1 turret + Inhib and recall since respawn timers won't be enough to attempt to end game" but then second guess and think that recalling and not pushing completely might make people think you are trying to "stretch out the game". I know that was a bad example, but we all seen games in both Pro play and experienced it personally when a team could of pushed for game but maybe they underestimated their damage and backed off early to reset to be safe in it, which technically stretched out the game a little bit. While Vega's game was an extreme example of that and the intentionally stretching it out was clear, but it can be super easy to see this getting slowly worse as time goes by. But also let's be honest here. I saw that game, it was over by 5 mins and Vega stretched the game out for it to become more entertaining because honestly, if they really wanted to the game would of been over by 12-15 mins at the longest and that would of felt boring for people watching. Vega was over them by 12k gold by 12 mins in which is insane, and even with them stretching the game out, the game only lasted like 33 mins which is more or less around the average time for games between equal skilled teams in pro play right now. Now if they stretched the game out to like 45+ mins, then I'd say yea that might of been to much but it was around the same time as their other games.
: Wait the team that banned 5 supports got a punishment???
I think this whole thing is stupid...first of all forcing a team that obviously shouldn't be there just because you want an "all female team" in professional play when they clearly aren't good enough to be there is insulting to all the players in that league that might of had a chance to make it to pro play but was kicked out because you want to look progressive and diverse. Then you warn and punish teams that face them basically. This is apparently the 2nd time a team got a warning or punished when facing that team. First time was a team named Vega Squadron where they "intentionally stretched out" a game that they clearly could of won. And now ROX for banning 5 supports. First of all Intentionally Stretching out a game really isn't all that bad. I've seen teams do that a lot, sure not nearly to that extent but teams do this quite often, and it's stupid to punish a team for it. Also in the worst case, they could just Surrender if they really don't want to deal with it because I know you can in pro play, or just let minions just take the nexus. Vega probably did it to showcase to them that they aren't at their skill level (which they're clearly not). Then there is the ROX game where they ban 5 supports against them. Considering 4 of them were support mains (from what I heard) how exactly is that really all that bad? Teams ban 4 or 5 champions from the same role a lot, usually it's to try to force the enemy's best laner on to one of their less experienced pick. Yes it was basically a throw away ban but they really didn't need to ban any champions, and if throwing away bans was considered "bad" then League wouldn't have the "None" option when banning champions. Now if the team fought their way into the league like everyone else and got into pro play off of their skill then sure I might be on their side with all of this, but clearly they didn't and was just added to pro play. Riot mentions these are a sign of disrespect to them, but how about all the disrespect to all the potential players that lost their spot in pro play? Or the disrespect to the current teams that worked their way into where they are now?
: You need to look at what actually happens vs the ideal of what you think happens. 1) W does not get reliable cooldown resets in a support role. 2) Her kit has about 20% less range correlation with an adc when taking into account the new restrictions. 3) W doesn't multiproc, where other champions DO. 4) Morgana's Auto attack range is 75-100 less than every other support in the game, and at least 75 less than every adc in the game. In other words, she can't auto attack in bot lane. What this translates to: 2-3 more minutes without wards than a support who can both cooldown + auto attack. Lower overall game gold, even though her kit is substantially a full damage one. It doesn't matter that it's a guaranteed proc to hit with W. It matters that W is on an 12 second cooldown vs 4 second cooldowns and Zyras who can drain their entire charge counter in 2 skills. It matters that she can't accompany it with auto attacks. ------------------------------------------- Wave clearing: The fact you don't understand what I'm saying tells me you do not understand the importance of laning. Her W can clear a wave .... sure. But it won't last hit each one. It will at best last hit 3-4 of them, leaving 2 of them to die to minions. Those two lost are forever gone. While you are destroying the waves, and not getting gold, your opponent can still enjoy 90-100 % Wave capture. And there is very little "Skill" can do about this problem, because Morgana's .5 second ticks are faster than her auto attacks which have a tiny range, and easily put waves in precarious situations where 3-4 HP is left and a minion kills it. And late game, her W sucks at wave clear. It takes her wave about 5 seconds to kill a minion wave normally late game. It takes her W about 15 seconds to kill a minion wave on Baron Buff. That's enough time to push the turret, kill it, and move on to the next. Meanwhile, a fully build adc, or Xerath, can instant clear a wave. And there is NOTHING Morgana can do about this problem.
I've seen and cleared waves as Mid Morgana with just 1 W, even in the later parts of the game, I don't know what you are doing or building that is not allowing you to clear a wave with it, and even during the early parts of the lane phase you can just auto attack the minions where you think they will barely survive the wave like you said. Yes she has a terrible wave clear against Baron minions, but a lot of mages do as well so it's not something that she alone suffers from. And even with the champions who are good at wave clearing baron minions like {{champion:34}} who has arguably the best wave clear out of all mages post level 6 (her pre-6 wave clear is trash though) for her to even kill a baron minion wave it'll cost her like 300-400+ mana. But then you can look at some other popular picks for the mid lane like {{champion:142}} who prob can't even clear a baron wave, at least not really all that fast. Also yes Mage supports like {{champion:143}} {{champion:63}} have an easier time and quicker time at completing their spell thief and can be annoying for Morgana to get her stacks off without relying on her W all the time, but you are pretending like those are the only champions you fight in the support role. With the whole meta being about Tank Supports, you have no excuse to not be able to stack your spell thiefs, especially with a champion like Morgana who's a counter to some tank supports like {{champion:89}} and a decent pick into {{champion:12}} etc. Hell if Morgana is not in a decent state and is considered lacking then how come she is the most played non-tank support being played in the LCS right now?
: Not really true at all. Her W is more or less useless in the current meta, when considering champions UNLESS she starts out with Q, and even then it barely manages to kill. Most other champions have kits that allow different skill sequences, or spammability to the point where skill sequence doesn't matter. Morgana is one of the worst Spelltheif users in the game. She also is one of the worst Wave clear champions because her low auto attack range and irregular W ticks often give her at best a 60% clear rate. And, her clear doesn't at ANY POINT IN THE GAME offer an instantaneous clear, which is what a team needs at baron buff lane pushes. Most champions who have weak wave clear early, have strong wave clear late, or vice versa. Morgana lacks both. And the mana nerfs made it worse. She is one of the lowest gold earners in Support. She doesn't even have a followable statistic on gold earned in other roles. She's even sub 50% Win rate even though she has one of the simplest and most linear kits in the game. Her Delta performance from average win rate isn't even high. Master Morgana players only are 3-4% higher win rate than average. That's one of the tightest spreads I've ever seen. She averages 2.39 kills per game, telling you EXACTLY how good she is at capturing kills. Her BEST win rate among Challengers is 55.8%. That tells you a TON. Literally the ONLY stat that Morgana stands out in: She is #12/143 in ASSISTS. In other words, even there, 11 champs are better than her. She's averaging 1/3 the damage to champs of other mages. Let that sink in..... -------- The only true thing about what you said: They did commit to only a VGU. Doesn't change the fact she doesn't belong in this meta without a rework, even if Pykes and Braums and Leona bots Ban her to make their lanes easier.
How is she one of the worst {{item:3303}} user? She can just drop her W under an enemy and instantly proc it without the enemy really having a chance to avoid it (not like it's worth avoiding really) but still. Also she is not one of the worst wave clear champions in the game, her wave clear is actually really good and can even push mages to tower. Do you just max Q when you play her mid lane? Because honestly, maxing W is the best way to play her mid, just clear waves and keep enemy under turret and be annoying. Yes your Q won't hit as hard but still a 2 second snare will still be scary to fight in a gank, especially when combo'd with her W and Ultimate. Though I will admit that her W is kind of meh when you play her as a support (where you would obviously max Q first) and don't have the gold to get the strong AP to make it worth while, and that would of been a good chance to improve on it. But personally, I don't think she is in any bad state and has seen play quite a bit in low elo, high elo and professional play which is most likely why they felt it wasn't needed to change on much for her.
: So, hmmm Rek sai is getting buff? Isn't she like the 4th best jungler now?
She has one of the lowest win rates right now, and is hardly played atm. I don't know what you're talking about her being the 4th best jungler. Also personally, I'd take a strong Rek'sai over most of the meta junglers anyways, so if they buff her a bit and she becomes popular again, at least some of the annoying junglers won't be picked as much.
: 1, 2, 3, {{champion:202}}
> [{quoted}](name=S9 Gårbage,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=1ZAPMpxT,comment-id=0084000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-17T04:46:37.229+0000) > > 1, 2, 3, {{champion:202}} Jhin's 4 hit is part of his theme of his kit, he revolves around it and the number 4 (like how is Q can bounce up to 4 times, and his ult shoots 4 times). Plus that's an actual passive of Jhin, where Neeko's is just a small passive of her W which kind of felt like it really was just tacked on at the last second. Neeko's 3-hit passive has no synergy to her kit at all.
: You guys keep on complaining like a guest who wants to take what's not his rights in a hotel without any effort so he takes it, Yasuo is a very hard champion to master, and only few people could master him, yeah he has what he has but it doesn't give him that safety in game, he is a weak champion after all that nerfs unless you are pro with him, and many champions can counter him hard where Yasuo can't do anything but lose his lane instead of them, specially if they have a cooperative jungler, I only want to say this to Riot ; don't listen to complainers for no reason
> [{quoted}](name=Yasuó Bót ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9HhWmgB8,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2019-02-17T01:55:33.634+0000) > > You guys keep on complaining like a guest who wants to take what's not his rights in a hotel without any effort so he takes it, Yasuo is a very hard champion to master, and only few people could master him, yeah he has what he has but it doesn't give him that safety in game, he is a weak champion after all that nerfs unless you are pro with him, and many champions can counter him hard where Yasuo can't do anything but lose his lane instead of them, specially if they have a cooperative jungler, I only want to say this to Riot ; don't listen to complainers for no reason Complainers with no reason? He's stupid strong right now and needs to be nerfed. Even if you shut him down in lane, the moment he gets 1-2 items, hes back to destroying your entire team easily. Also only a few people can master him? Sure he isn't an easy champion to play or master but you're pretending like hes the hardest champion ever which he isn't. Even bad Yasuo players are doing alright with him right now since hes so strong. Really popular champions that are considered really hard to play or master should never have a good win rate.
GR Titan (EUW)
: Honestly I feel like Neekos 3 hit passive is completely out of place, IMO it has absolutely no synergy with her kit and if you want to use it you have to go nashors otherwise you don't have the AS you need. I'd rather remove that and put some power elsewhere or give it a better passive.
> [{quoted}](name=GR Titan,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=1ZAPMpxT,comment-id=00840000,timestamp=2019-02-16T07:43:28.267+0000) > > Honestly I feel like Neekos 3 hit passive is completely out of place, IMO it has absolutely no synergy with her kit and if you want to use it you have to go nashors otherwise you don't have the AS you need. > > I'd rather remove that and put some power elsewhere or give it a better passive. I also agree, though I do like the fact that it's there to give her a bit more options for build paths even if most of the time she doesn't go on hit. I some times do switch it up and go {{item:3115}} {{item:3124}} but yea most of the time I just stick with burst Neeko as it's just easier to use and with most of the times facing Assassins like {{champion:238}} {{champion:7}} you really don't have the time to really proc much in a 1v1 during lane phase. But I do like that it's there and I'll go the on-hit Neeko when I'm up against a more tanky team as Burst Neeko wouldn't feel as strong against them. With that said, if they do wanna remove it and give her another good passive and power elsewhere, I'd be up for it. Maybe something like more time with the clone or give you more stuff you can do when you disguise as an ally. Like if you were able to use 1 ability from an ally when you copy them (thats non-ultimate ofc) to make it easier to trick people or something.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 15
Why was the E the target for {{champion:518}}? I felt if anything might need something it could be her W as that just feels kind of meh at times. I'm all for Neeko buffs but just felt like her E would kind of be a wrong way, especially when buffing it could make her a bit to strong depending on what you have plans for. Personally, damage wise she is fine but her kit does feel like it's lacking something... I thought about if you added a small slow to the 3rd proc of her W, but that also has a good chance to become a bit to strong. Maybe something like proc'ing the 3rd auto lowers the CD of her W? Will allow her to have more options to quickly clone in a fight and can make On-hit Neeko a bit more devastating since she'll be proc'ing it a bit more. That or making it a small heal or something, I don't know. I just feel that her W feels weak when you go Full AP build, and the only real use you can get from it is if you went On-hit Neeko which most people don't do. Also can you fix Neeko's W to work on Turrets again. Seems like her W doesn't proc or charge on turrets anymore, not sure if that was intentional or not as it wasn't mentioned in patch notes from what I could tell.
Visper (NA)
: What's the difference of playing Kennen top vs mid?
Personally I prefer to play him mid lane, and I never liked playing him top lane. I love playing him but I hate the idea of abusing the fact that I'm range over melee, so I don't play him top lane unless I was facing another range top laner like {{champion:150}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:6}} or any other mage/adc top lane. I like him mid lane also mainly for the fact that it's much easier to actually 1v1 your laner as most mid laners are squishy champions and you aren't forced to just sit there and slowly kill a tank that builds full MR against you. At least with mid lane you can actually have kill threat and kill them without the need of your jungler. Also as you mentioned, it allows you the better option of roaming, and makes it easier to collapse if a fight breaks out in the river/jungle. Then there is also the fact that playing mid lane Kennen would free up top lane for another good split pusher and you don't need to take that role and can stay with your team and not have to rely solely on a lucky teleport flank. Though the biggest reason why I feel he isn't played mid which was already mentioned was his weak wave clear which is generally the strength of your mid laner. Match ups can be a hit or miss, but personally I feel his match ups mid lane aren't as bad as people were saying. What people should remember is that Kennen is a flexable champion when it comes to builds. While it is generally ideal to rush {{item:3152}} into {{item:3157}} and in most cases, you would do that...Kennen isn't punished as hard for being forced to counter build as most mages since he doesn't use mana and is not some one who needs early CDR. If you are playing Normals, then screw what your team says and just play him mid if you want to. He's viable there and I feel can be really strong when you get the right match up, though I'll admit he is still better top but to me hes more fun mid. Now if this is ranked, then maybe I'd stick with him top lane.
Quáx (NA)
: vaynes tumble is on a 3-second cooldown and shes stealthed for 1 second. So shes nowhere near Perma invis. Also, vayne has a ton of counterplay. She's a late game hyper carry so if you beat her early shes pretty useless unless she gets a lead at one point, she also has one of the lowest attack ranges of any ADC in the game, so abuse the fact that Caitlyn, twitch,tristana and I don't know...ANY OTHER FUCKING ADC IN THE GAME, has a longer range then her and can poke her, and if she wants to trade back she'll have to tumble, which is on cooldown while your auto attacks arent.
> [{quoted}](name=EvilRubberDucky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TWg3PJ3v,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-15T14:01:46.453+0000) > > vaynes tumble is on a 3-second cooldown and shes stealthed for 1 second. So shes nowhere near Perma invis. Also, vayne has a ton of counterplay. She's a late game hyper carry so if you beat her early shes pretty useless unless she gets a lead at one point, she also has one of the lowest attack ranges of any ADC in the game, so abuse the fact that Caitlyn, twitch,tristana and I don't know...ANY OTHER FUCKING ADC IN THE GAME, has a longer range then her and can poke her, and if she wants to trade back she'll have to tumble, which is on cooldown while your auto attacks arent. Vaynes early game is not nearly as bad as it was in the past, her early game is actually alright considering how OP she gets Mid/Late game, honestly her early game should be even more punishing than it is now. Also even if her early game was bad, it's not like it's hard to mitigate that with a good support or just sitting a little more passive since you know she will out scale almost every other ADC (besides for maybe a few) so in her eyes, just leaving lane even or down a tiny bit is still winning. Also her Stealth is perma stealth basically. Her Q is on a 4 second CD that goes down to 2 second CD at max rank, and they buffed Vayne last season (I believe) which gives her Q a 50% CD reduction while in your ult. So your Q goes down to 1 second CD with a 1 second stealth which as mentioned can proc her true damage every 2 auto attacks with Rageblade. She is a problem and needs to be nerfed.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: What i think could make Neeko more viable
Shes not played much because her kit just isn't overloaded enough to picking her. Also with her lack of mobility and only having a movementspeed increase from her W, it's much harder to play her with how crazy mobility creep has gotten. Plus as some one who plays her, you have NO idea how annoying it is to play against {{champion:7}} and I've probably played against her like...at least 10-15 times in my last like 40 games on Neeko and I don't really wanna ban Leblanc since I feel Zed is some one who prob is even more annoying and impossible for Neeko to face so I always ban him. But really though, You don't see her played much in Normals/Ranked because her kit feels like it was made with team play as in when you play with friends because of the passive. It's not as easy to really utilize it with randoms, but she is also not super broken so she hardly ever sees play in Pro play either. At the same time, I feel it's fine because not every champion has to have overloaded kits, and you can have some champions with simple kits with a decent skill ceiling. Maybe tiny number changes here and there would be fine but you don't really need to add anything big to her imo.
: Does Neeko seem kinda bland to anyone else?
Shes fine the way she is, for being a still pretty new champion shes sitting at like a 49% win rate. Shes not broken in any way and shes not super annoying to face either, with also having a lot of outplay potential so it would feel rewarding to put in effort on her. She is also not a super popular pick or ban worthy so you can actually play her without fear of her getting picked/banned before you. With all that said, she might be kind of bland when compared to the last like 5-6+ champions released, but Idc and I'll play her and pick her as my 2nd main anyways. Then again, I've been an {{champion:34}} main since Season 3, so I've gotten used to "boring or bland feeling" champions lol.
Zyra Bot (EUW)
: Spellthiefs nerf
I'm kind of torn about their decision on this. Like I get why they would have to do this, as fighting that top lane would be the most frustrating thing ever and I'm tired of seeing ranged champions abusing melee champions top lane already so part of me is happy they did this....but at the same time it bothers me because it feels like a huge slap in the face for trying something new that could work out. It almost feels like "Oh you found something different to play and it got played in pro play? We HAVE to quickly fix it right away" type of thing and goes against what they always say how they "Don't force a meta" but yet also introduced a Ranked system that is based on the roles you play... Which gets me to another reason why I hate this, even one of the mentions on the patch notes was being they felt it was "boring to watch" which was made even more evident when that hot fix happened like 2 days after it was played in NA LCS (or I guess I should just say LCS?) Which made me think, if it wasn't picked in the LCS, would this "strategy" still be going on and not receive any fix for a patch or 2? And that's what I also find funny about it "Boring to watch" in pro play. Do you know who I found super freaking boring to watch in pro play? {{champion:223}} I find him to be the most boring to watch champion in pro play by far. His existence is basically a huge play killer and just takes any hype out of plays that might of happened. Whenever I'm watching LCS and I see a team pick them, I instantly start to think of how boring the lane phase and half of the fights are gonna be. "OH THEY GOT THE ADC WITH A CC....oh right, forgot that Kench was there to devour allies and kill any pressure or reward for that play". But honestly, I do feel bad for the non-tank supports as this will be a hard hit on them for no reason basically. Now we'll see even more tank supports which is already the more popular supports anyways.
Glîtchy (NA)
: welp bac kto perma banning akali
The only compensation she got was higher hp regen. I believe it was like 3.5 regen to 6, which is only since her Q doesn't heal anymore so she needed it for surviving lane phase. Look I hate Akali as much as everyone else but just lying about changes just because you still get stomped against one isn't the right way to deal with it. Also I feel banning her now would be a waste of a ban.
: Honestly the only mages who is going to be problematic with it are Cassiopeia and maybe Ryze/Zyra. All the other mages are going to have a pretty rough time stacking it up to the necessary threshold as they're so reliant on landing skill shots and have cooldowns longer than 3 seconds in which the stacks will reset. Even if they do get up to max stacks, they likely have run out of abilities of which they can use the Conqueror bonuses with.
> [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iUs5UqW9,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-02-13T03:05:00.797+0000) > > Honestly the only mages who is going to be problematic with it are Cassiopeia and maybe Ryze/Zyra. All the other mages are going to have a pretty rough time stacking it up to the necessary threshold as they're so reliant on landing skill shots and have cooldowns longer than 3 seconds in which the stacks will reset. Even if they do get up to max stacks, they likely have run out of abilities of which they can use the Conqueror bonuses with. I can see it being strong on on-hit mages who stack attack speed like {{champion:10}} but yea other than her and the others you mentioned, really isn't to many mages who can abuse it outside of other mages that can maybe go on-hit/attack speed like {{champion:117}} {{champion:518}}. Also I am curious how {{champion:268}} works with it, because if it does work with his Soldiers then that could be one of the biggest abusers.
: other than irelia. how many tops have went to mid lol. you have maybe wukong (very rarely) and aatrox. sorry if i sound rude. I don't know how to type something that would sound more like a discussion..
{{champion:266}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:8}} are the top laners that I have seen go mid, though yes some are very very rare but they do pop up in there. I also seen {{champion:56}} mid a few times as well.
: > Can I please have an option to swap roles/lanes in champ select and possibly the game? > > I queued for mid and my top had an unfavorable match-up so I went top for them. In the post game lobby I received a note telling me I wasn't supposed to do that and I might be restricted from positional ranked. Strategic moves like this are important for the game and shouldn't be punished, especially in ranked. No you can't. The goal of positional ranking is to adjust precisely the mmr of your opponents and mates to fit your mmr in the role on which you are put on. IE : I'm main mid, but I suxx at adc ADC, so my midlane mmr is high plat and my adc mmr is rather low gold/silver so if I get the mid role the matchmaking is going to have me play with high plat players. If I get an ADC role the matchmaking puts me with and against silver players so the game is fair since I have a silver skill level while playing ADC. Now if you swap lanes to go mid when you have been put with silver players to compensate for your poor adc level, you total destroy the purpose of positionnal ranking. So they just warn you that if you abuse this system to get lower opponents and still play in your stronger lanes, they'll stop making the distinction between the mmr you have on your different lanes. Which is hardly a punishment, you will still be able to play ranked, but you will be treated as in the previous seasons : same MMR for every lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Starcraft243ver,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vXKXe7oo,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-02-11T12:44:46.493+0000) > > No you can't. > > The goal of positional ranking is to adjust precisely the mmr of your opponents and mates to fit your mmr in the role on which you are put on. > > IE : I'm main mid, but I suxx at adc ADC, so my midlane mmr is high plat and my adc mmr is rather low gold/silver so if I get the mid role the matchmaking is going to have me play with high plat players. If I get an ADC role the matchmaking puts me with and against silver players so the game is fair since I have a silver skill level while playing ADC. > > Now if you swap lanes to go mid when you have been put with silver players to compensate for your poor adc level, you total destroy the purpose of positionnal ranking. So they just warn you that if you abuse this system to get lower opponents and still play in your stronger lanes, they'll stop making the distinction between the mmr you have on your different lanes. > > Which is hardly a punishment, you will still be able to play ranked, but you will be treated as in the previous seasons : same MMR for every lane. I understand the reasoning of this and can some what agree with what Riot is doing with this, though I feel that Riot should just give us an option to like say "I don't care about waiting times. I want my Main (or secondary maybe) role" type of thing. As something like this would be a huge slap in the face to anyone who wants to just be a 1 trick or just main 1 role. While autofill was already a huge annoyance to them, at least then they could lane swap or just play their champion in that autofill role (depending on the champion ofc) but now they'll get basically removed from the new rank system which I guess in some cases would be good for them lol. Personally, I just want them to add something like that anyways because even in Normal Draft when I'm trying to practice my champion before jumping into ranked, I'll have a estimated que time of like 1:30 for mid lane, and the que pops like 1:45 and just auto fills me Bot or Jungle randomly...I'd have no problem waiting another 1-2 or even 5 mins if I can automatically get mid lane, which I feel a rank system like this would really benefit from. Also I've heard of complaints of people losing a game of their main role (ex: mid lane) and their lp drops to 0, then next game they get autofilled support and lose and they got demoted from their Mid lane rank instead of just losing lp for support. Something like that is a huge problem if it really did happen like that.
: These turret changes actually seem awful. Why do they want games to last longer? Why do they want to diminish the impact of winning lane? That just makes the game worse...
Because it's not fun to lose a turret from full hp in 1 push because you died (or Recalled/Teleported) when the enemy jungler just happens to be near. Or in some cases the laner can do it by themselves from full HP in 1 push.
Vekkna (NA)
: The difference here is that Lissandra's mana costs were tuned much higher than average to compensate for her passive. It basically meant that you had to manage your passive *and* mana instead of just managing mana. Imaging Wukong had 10-30 lower base resists than every other fighter to justify his current passive. That's the gist of Lissandra's old passive. That said, look at what happened to Liss this patch. Her new passive is 100% worthless in lane and 90% worthless in solo queue. They nerfed her -50 base damage and .2 AP. That's a bigger net loss than the recent nerfs to Akali, Leblanc, Graves, and Irelia *combined*. And they barely lowered her mana costs, so now she's just OOM all the time in lane. Don't even get me started on what happened to Zyra. What a fuckin' debacle. You think you want a new passive but you don't. Take it from somebody who's been through this twice now. Wukong has a shit passive because it's low budget. If you want a better passive it's going to cost you something, like your ability to 1-shot things from stealth with zero counterplay. Or your freelo W scripts. Or the Lord Dominik's baked into your kit instead of having to buy it like everyone else. Or your Katarina ult with hard cc, but with movement and immunity to interrupt. The moral of the story is this: if you cry too much about a passive, Riot will give you something to *really* cry about.
Yes her passive is useless in lane now but it makes her team fighting potential insanely good now. Even in solo queue, if you and your team can't even kill at least 1 person while staying alive then you're team is already had a huge dis-advantage or just out-skilled and the game was probably over no matter what. Though I'll admit that they really didn't lower down the mana costs enough to really feel like it'll make a difference and the changes to her E's speed is gonna take some time to get used to. Hopefully they can revert some of these nerfs if they do impact her a bit to much but I feel her team fight power might make up for it.
Xavanic (NA)
: Can shyvana get a passive plz?
She also gained HP when she transform which was added during her passive rework, it's meant to be there for her old "doubles resistance when transform" thing. She used to just get 5/10/15/20 resistance that doubled to 20/30/40 when in dragon form Now she gets 5 + 5 per dragon + she gains 150/250/350 HP when in dragon form So if you get 3 dragons which is reasonable if your team has decent dragon control, you could get 20 Resistance + 150/250/350 HP when you go into dragon form. In which case, I'd rather take that HP over just 20 Resistance especially with that synergy with items like {{item:3748}} Though with all that said, I'd be down for another rework on her passive. Mainly for the fact that it does feel a bit to boring and can feel terrible when your team is losing hard. But overall I feel the trade off is worth it.
: Shield Bash changed on PBE (Nerf in a lot of cases)
Hmm I wonder how broken it would be on {{champion:98}} as he shields and auto attacks a lot to, and can even shield allies that might have it. Incoming AP Shen just to ult their carries for a 1k shield to abuse this lol.
: I'm glad Warmog is gone. It was just too strong. But to me, the worst offenders weren't the pure tanks like Rammus and Malphite. The ones that broke Warmog were champions like Trundle and Darius who pumped out high damage while remaining invincible.
Personally the only person I felt really broke Warmogs in aram was {{champion:16}}. Everyone else I felt was annoying sure but that item made her insanely stupid in aram...
: First impressions: The current marksmen changes won't allow non-marksmen to go Bot Lane
I could see some non-ADC going bot lane, mainly being {{champion:85}} and maybe even {{champion:4}} though yea, most non-adcs won't be going bot. I would say that {{champion:42}} might see some play back in bot lane as well though.
: assassins are counters to mages, so why should a mage be able to beat an assassin in lane while being better in teamfights and late game
> [{quoted}](name=ADC Stalker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yAwbo8Ek,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-04-23T19:46:20.534+0000) > > assassins are counters to mages, so why should a mage be able to beat an assassin in lane while being better in teamfights and late game Because there is a lot of different types of mages, it's not like ADCs where theres basically just caster or crit as the main ones. You are generalizing all types of mages when you try to say that no mages should counter Assassins. There really isn't to many mages that actually are heavy "counter" to Assassins. The main ones are really {{champion:127}} {{champion:90}} and I'd almost include {{champion:85}} but he isn't really seen Mid lane as much anymore (I still play him there though). And even on those 2, the Assassin can just grab a {{item:3140}} and even counter them back for it.
Grokmir (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0jInUfW,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2018-04-22T06:39:35.880+0000) > > It's funny though, a large amount of the community complain about games ending to quickly and snowballing is a massive problem in the game right now. So what do they do? They nerf mage's waveclear which makes stalling even harder and the game will become even more snowbally. Well the thing is, waveclear isn't enough to combat snowballing and extend games atm in solo queue. It can work if the losing team has a lot of waveclear, but most solo queue comps aren't made to do that. However, something that a lot of people overlook is that these nerfs don't even affect stalling at all when you're at your inhib towers, until the enemy gets baron, which is supposed to counter waveclear comps anyways. Its trivial to clear a wave and go back for mana and make it back in time for the next wave. What I'm trying to say is that the mana nerfs will likely not affect game time or snowballing at all. It'll just prevent the mage from perma clearing at their outer towers. If you wanna lengthen games, you have to slow down scaling and objective taking, not non interactively avoid losing.
> [{quoted}](name=Grokmir the bold,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0jInUfW,comment-id=0001000100010000,timestamp=2018-04-22T16:57:41.137+0000) > > Well the thing is, waveclear isn't enough to combat snowballing and extend games atm in solo queue. It can work if the losing team has a lot of waveclear, but most solo queue comps aren't made to do that. > > However, something that a lot of people overlook is that these nerfs don't even affect stalling at all when you're at your inhib towers, until the enemy gets baron, which is supposed to counter waveclear comps anyways. Its trivial to clear a wave and go back for mana and make it back in time for the next wave. > > What I'm trying to say is that the mana nerfs will likely not affect game time or snowballing at all. It'll just prevent the mage from perma clearing at their outer towers. > > If you wanna lengthen games, you have to slow down scaling and objective taking, not non interactively avoid losing. While that is true, but forcing mages to go back to base when they were waveclearing at the tier 1 tower is just going to make taking that tower even easier if the enemy mid laner is either a manaless champion or one that is less mana hungry. It'll be much harder for mages to stay and protect those towers now and while that itself might not feel like much will change with snowballing, but it opens up options for them to roam and impact the rest of the map sooner. Kind of like how we had the meta of gank/camp bot and take their tower + dragon and roam. We now will have another option of just waveclear until the enemy mage has to back and take their tower first and roam bot/top. We might see more teleports Mid to counteract it though.
Grokmir (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Crispy0Snake,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0jInUfW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-21T21:15:22.719+0000) > > If they want to nerf waveclear why not just cap certain abilities' damage to minions like they (essentially) do in jungle. These changes will just help mages that can waveclear in one or two abilities like Ekko or Taliyah but put other mages in the dumpster. > > Why are they nerfing waveclear so much though? Was it ever a big problem? They are nerfing infinite waveclear. There's so much mana being thrown around that mages with good, safe waveclear can effectively stall out games for free without having to ever back. Its the exact same problem we had back during the glory days of athene's grail.
> [{quoted}](name=Grokmir the bold,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0jInUfW,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-04-21T22:45:24.111+0000) > > They are nerfing infinite waveclear. There's so much mana being thrown around that mages with good, safe waveclear can effectively stall out games for free without having to ever back. > > Its the exact same problem we had back during the glory days of athene's grail. It's funny though, a large amount of the community complain about games ending to quickly and snowballing is a massive problem in the game right now. So what do they do? They nerf mage's waveclear which makes stalling even harder and the game will become even more snowbally.
: > [{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ie1oLpKB,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T04:07:51.846+0000) > > Azir I can definitely agree and Veigar I can agree with as well. I might agree with Brand as 1 good ultimate can easily carry a fight by itself. The others I don't see as really carry potential, especially Sol...I honestly don't know whens the last time I even seen him (But that's probably my low elo, and maybe Sol kicks up a lot in higher elo). > > The main people I'd say for "Carry" is {{champion:268}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:45}} Meh, azir is far worse sols better in his devistating combination of tank mage. Azir can only dish out his damage at some stages with his team, but an azir must know how to control lane and at the same time get to where he wants to be, what most azirs do is sit in lane which is not gonna help, but carry wise azir will not be easy if your team is idiotic.
> [{quoted}](name=PERIMITION,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ie1oLpKB,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-22T04:01:49.517+0000) > > Meh, azir is far worse sols better in his devistating combination of tank mage. Azir can only dish out his damage at some stages with his team, but an azir must know how to control lane and at the same time get to where he wants to be, what most azirs do is sit in lane which is not gonna help, but carry wise azir will not be easy if your team is idiotic. If you are referring to his impact on the team and his influence on the map with his roams then I can agree with {{champion:136}} being a great person to carry, though I was mostly referring to how strong a good {{champion:268}} can be and if played right can easily destroy the enemy team. Though I guess if we talking about that style, I should of possibly included {{champion:10}} as a late game kayle can melt a team and has one of the best pushing and turret taking capabilities of mages.
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Dark Nephthys

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