: > [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5tszqyVd,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T01:04:22.244+0000) > > Nope. Everyone building those will still be immobile. A adc can still easily kit a darius or nasus. Mages will just cc them to death anyways. > > > Like have you actually played with those items or done some math with them? No adc is kiting someone who is running at them at 700ms. You’re delusional dude.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5tszqyVd,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-10-14T01:10:53.005+0000) > > please tell me how you're gonna kite a garen that has righteous glory as an adc lmao You don’t. This guy is one of those “juggernauts are all perfect champions” people.
You can get him off of you AFTER he gets to you, but by then its to late with new garen. Thats about it.
: Been playing since 2010 and I'm glad the oldies still get played here on the forums. :) Even if Riot took 2 years off just to balance the current state it would not be balanced perfectly. There are too many variables between champs, items, and runes. So they balance the outliers, monitor and nudge the game in the direction they think is best, and adjust as new stuff is added.
Remove runes, and its only 3 plus outliers huzaaah. but yea your right. But we all know runes was a terrible idea. at least unanimous runes for everyone. Champion specific runes would be cool tho. Like yasuos windwall has 2 charges but only last 1 second. or Fioras q is now targeted but has 300 more range. Or Zeds has a one that makes him unable to go to his w shadow but it has 2 charges on a base cd of 15 seconds.{{sticker:slayer-pantheon-rainbows}}
Sunbreaker (EUNE)
: It's really weird how this post gets so many upvotes when it makes 0 sense. Riot Balance team and Champion Design team are two separate departments. If you fire the people who make champions that doesn't mean the game suddenly becomes balanced.
Maybe, see, this is the main problem, how can i make a champion fun and unique, then asks someone else to balance the numbers. Feels like they should both be on the same team.
Jaspers (EUW)
: And she still loses most the time, because as an assassin her gameplay isn't design for ARAM, you can't fix that by adding damage. Meanwhile 45% winrate Poppy and Braum? Nah, they are good apparently, 45% winrate is fine. Can't have tanks being tanky. :P
Andsauce (NA)
: also Riot should stop their garage balance in ARAM. Look at Akali - dealing 118% damage and taking 88% damage.. Are you serious?
critical akali is so busted in aram, throw shrouds out non stop, and crit the unlucky foe that comes in for over 3x ad. :D
: People hate it when you bring their elo into the question, but fact of the matter is, nobody is playing Yi to climb past gold. There are some food Yi die-hards in Diamond, but a lot of the FotM picks completely trash Yi early and mid game. Game’s don’t last long enough for Yi to be relevant except in clown elos that don’t close games out. He isn’t good not underrated. He’s bad, one dimensional, and any nerfs will further hurt him.
Yea this is the main problem. You have to actually climb past the elo where yi is strong, to not be subject to yi being strong. Kinda an oxymoron, but not really. If people just learned how to deal with yi, EVERYONE at the same time, then you wouldnt need to climb in elo. So some kind of wall is there not sure what it specifically is, but yi does hit a wall. I think its coordination. Past a certain elo you have to be good at coordination. Yi preys on lack of it.
Saezio (EUNE)
: Seriously there is like 20 Junglers that can reliably make yi a non factor in any game. Yi can't do shit before he gets at least 2 complete items. And even then he can be burst in 1 cc. Only way yi is effective is if he is left alone for TONS OF TIME. And then suddenly people decide to fight him 1v1 or without CC.
Yi has a ranged gap closer that does massive damage, and a large amount of upfront damage in his kit. He is not "useless" he just is not meta, because he doesnt have 9 ccs like everything else in the game.
Sucction (OCE)
: Yeah no. Yi isn't at all in a position for nerfs. He's average past silver, and godawful past platinum. The solution here, sadly, is really just to 'git gud'
5 man game, being good doesnt stop 4 others from being bad. You have to climb to an elo where they will pick decent champs into it and be skilled enough to abuse its weakness. The majority of players need to "git gud" at the same time to make yi useless.
Nazgul10 (EUNE)
: I main Yi, but the "no counterplay" part is wrong. Yi is probably the champion that's most affected by cc. He stomps in iron-silver because people there are clueless and/or cant land cc. The only possible problem his kit can have is that his E stacks with AD, which makes him stupidly strong mid-late game. Sure, he can build QSS and then get Merc's which works on him, but he has to build jungle item, rageblade and maybe BotRK, before he gets QSS. Unless he completely stomps you, in which case it's not really the champion's fault.
Yi is the most crippled by fear champion yes, but his W makes rootsa joke. And skill shot cc is a skill based thing for yi has 2 chances to dodge via his 600 move speed and his q. And he typically kills people even if he spawns in rooted by sheer dps. He is the least crippled by soft cc, and above average saftey against hard cc. In fact fearing a yi means you cant KILL the yi.
: > [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=otZL3xKh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-14T00:15:28.219+0000) > > GIVE BACK LASER ITs. THOSE WERE THE SHIT I mean. They literally only removed lasers because of that audio bug they couldn’t fix.
They removed them because they stalled games out to long. Laser turrets were too good at forcing the game to be decided on 1 big 5v5 fight that had to go massively in 1 teams favor. This makes the games last longer and long games aren't liked by cafe gaming culture.
Barso55 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MagicFlyingLlama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uta4QZUs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-14T04:41:47.111+0000) > > The issue is that there are too many runes that are just "extra damage!" and they can never all be balanced. Well damage runes are meant to give extra damage...so your point is a weird statement. Lack of balance is one thing and a) theres no reason they cant all be relatively balanced b) this isnt a lack of balance but a complete lack of viability between two competing runes All runes serve a niche: Hail of blades - proc 3/4 auto effects like xin Q or kled W super fast lethal tempo - auto attack based champs that do sustained auto damage to multiple targets (yi, tryn etc) conqueror - champs that frontload multiple spells and/or/autos and/or to deal with tanks pta - champs that can auto multiple times then use their burst (volibear, kled, etc) electrocute - early game 3 seperate attack/ability burst dark harvest - the only purely scaling rune, obviously meant for snowbally champs who can get enemies low or poke champs that can get enemies low, meant to keep them relevant as the game goes on. Problem is, electrocute keeps you more relevant for longer than dark harvest right now because of its insane scaling with AD/AP (40% bonus AD is a lot...its almost like having a 5th ability).
The problem is dark harvest is actually the reset rune. Designed for champions that put damage over time effects on multiple people etc. It resets down to 1.5 second cd on a takedown. So its weak for people that dont get several kills quickly but strong on those that do. Problem is that if you get multiple kills quickly you pretty much win the game regardless.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eonslegacy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iHeFMl0J,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-24T21:58:44.188+0000) > > {{sticker:sg-syndra}} You sure? Its pretty close. Whats close the amount of burst in the game to the base health pool? Cuz I mean yeah but i mean its getting unhealthy with how "skill intensive champs" become braindead do X to win or feed trying next thing you know Thresh will have 1000% ap scaling Q that resets if he hits a hook on a champion and half half its cooldown refunded on minion hits at the cost of he gets NO armor just more AP per soul....
nah your thinking to small on this man. Thresh LOSES armor and mr Per soul, the lore will be about how he constantly has to fight against the souls etc to make it work. But he gains % damage bonus per soul. 100 souls 100% more damage overall. 200 souls 200% more damage etc, but he also keeps his current damage ratios on moves. Just for extra extra damage. And since he gets 1 shot theres counterplay of course duh obviously {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
: yasuo is a man. the correct pronoun is He
not wrong not wrong XD {{sticker:galio-happy}}
Exin0 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eonslegacy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cyuI50gr,comment-id=00000002000000020000,timestamp=2019-09-24T18:50:20.892+0000) > > Jinx comes online, WAAAAYY after all the "toxic" picks have already decided if they are gonna be broken and unfair. She avoids banns because of that. > If she ever comes online early, then lets be real, you were gonna lose that game anyway enemy(or your) bot laners are boosted bonobos no late game anyway. Iam not saying she isnt strong or dont need nerf but she is not percieved as problem, toxic, unfair and people want other champions get guted. She has healthy kit but bad numbers yasuo is opposite toxic kit not problem with numbers.
Pretty sure the problem with yasuos kit IS THE NUMBERS. Windwall cooldown and duration. Passive shield value and time it comes back up. base stats. Range on q and the range on the knockup. Duration of cc in his kit. COoldown of his abilities. Damage ratio to cooldown of his abilities(this is the real problem). The problem with yasuo is his moves have such abysmally low cooldowns that he can just uber spam them even if they barely do more than an auto early, the fact you get hit by 3 or 4 every trade is the problem. Its why darius can rek a yasuo, because darius has much longer cds on his kit, but each move does a MASSIVE amount of damage. So when yasuo goes in his shield breaks and he loses a 3rd of his health by the time he makes it out.
: Playing front line champions no longer feels fun
> [{quoted}](name=Big Boi Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0bc9d9fW,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-12T23:11:47.121+0000) > > I use to really enjoy being the frontline, caveman brain bruiser/tank back in the day but now I just get perma stunned and deleted within a few seconds of any major fight, all I have to ask is why me Riot? its simply because they arent strong anymore. They do not do the job they are supposed to. They're purpose now is to land the first cc, or the last to cause people to be vulnerable to exploding. This only works if you have damage on your team, and if your trying to carry on a front line utility only pick you are putting your life on the line for another player thats in the elo you want to climb out of because you consider it LOW elo. You are risking everything in the game on teammates you dont even wanna play with in the long run. That is why playing a front line doesnt feel fun. Its far easier to just BE that damage source that kills the person that gets hit with the cc, because YOUR not the one VULNERABLE if the cc DOESNT land.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eonslegacy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0bc9d9fW,comment-id=00040003000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T05:12:00.079+0000) > > zilean prevents them from dying what i mean is the 3 seconds of the revive are spent just staring at your screen. i would rather my adc do damage for 3 seconds and then die, rather than come out of the revive and then die (because who is killing my enemies while my carry is dead? how did this situation even occur? is it because you didn't have a frontline so your carry got slapped?) > 1 shotting 2 people occurs with aoe high damage nukes and poor positioning. Something your chogath tank seems to be abusing because that move takes 1.5 seconds to go off from the start of the button press. There is no good positioning when you are at your inhibitor turret. I force the enemy team to either come forward, or surrender the turret. No matter what champion, if they pretend they can defend, they are getting silenced at minimum, which is time for them to not flash on my carries while their team is moving forward. Losing ONE SECOND of engage potential is the entire engage foiled ordinarily. > Cho's entire thematic is that he is unreliable so he gets a malphite ult on his q button. I'm not sure that's entirely true, the power of the ability is balanced by it's cast time. Cast time isn't unreliability, it enables rupture to be used as an instant follow up on any single slow or crowd control (i've built GLP instead of shurelya sometimes too) > Tanks, arent good. > Rightous glory morgana does the same except you CANT peel her. I can't imagine you actually believe both of these things at the same time. Tanks are unreliable and die too quickly, but morgana will _just **walk right in** and land a short range skill on **multiple champions**?_
I believe that champions die quickly yes, and building defense makes it slightly longer, but I also realize that zhonyas is 2.5 seconds if invulnerability and she cant be cced and its unrealistic to think she will be killed in the time it takes her to walk into 5 people at 900 speed and cast R, its less about the R. --- Morg R has 4x the surface area of malphites. and 5x that of chogaths or more it also slows and speeds her up and she also has SPELL VAMP. So yes she with a build like malphites will last as long as malphite, or longer vs magic damage. Thats the point, tanks arent tanky because they are tanks, they are tanky because of their items, yet those items are very non-cost efficient. Certain champs do have buffs to those stats like rammy or malphite, but thats just the difference of less than 1 second of damage. Morgs magic shield will grant more survivability than malphites passive and armor since magic damage is more bursty and front loaded and people usually die in cc. ---- Zilean can ult the tank that engage or the carry that died, but sometimes its just best to let zed full combo the adc and have the adc respawn back at full hp than peeling while she is at 50%. Zil has far more utility that would be useful than malphite. --- Front liners are strong yes, but anyone building front line power can front line, tanks arent even the best at it anymore. As you said before, j4 and grag typically go into full burst damge builds, meanwhile rengo goes tank. -- As for chogath. Go and silence a hecarim ult, go and silence a morg in black shield, go and silence a qss on a rengo, go and silence a master yi, im sorry but tanks like cho while good counterpicks fail at their job. Cho only sees pro play when his R 1 shots. And even then he lost most of the games he was played. Stop that rumble with flame spitter shield up and his R down from walking right through your team. Cho' is a beefy boi, if this is what you call a tank, then why does it have SO MUCH DAMAGE in its kit? Its not chose W cc that makes him good, its his passive his R and his range on q. If the q actually hits, it does a LOT of damage, and can be used to get picks, he just builds tank stats because the unreliability of the Q. It has 100% ap ratio, procs things like comet well, why wouldnt people play that as a mage? Simple he cant hit it. Shens taunt, sure it hits ez aim, galios punch, a little less accurate but still ez to use, galios taunt sure kinda low duration tho, rammus taunt great little short on range, his q can be stopped by cc but otherwise its amazing, Cho gath q....... So unreliable, delayed large cast time, massive lock out, reveals where it hits over half a second before, its a karthus skittle that has 2 times the delay. ....Now the q goes off. -- Want a real tank look at Sej Sej has her R thats why she is picked, she is pretty much a ranged lissandra ult. Her tank stats are great for front lining as her passive is awesome, but its mainly the fact she has 3 hard ccs in her kit with massive range. She also doesnt have to follow up her own ranged cc.
KazKaz (OCE)
: >It slows attack speed because its a delayed skillshot, that doesnt even scale. It would only be useful to Fiora if she used it to actually parry something, however, they dont want her parry on a lower cd so they give it damage and attackspeed slow. Yes, but that's the entire purpose of the ability, you parry a CC ability and turn the fight. It's not supposed to be a general ability. That said, it is anyways since it deals damage and slows already, it just makes 0 sense to me as to why she ALSO needs an attack speed slow on top of all this. >Fiora is like Tmere, she doesnt (or before the changes DIDN'T) have a win condition. Her fantasy is being un1v1able, but she isnt un1v1able at any stage really and like most duelists dropping 2 or 3 people on them invalidates their dueling nature. You can send the ad and support top and the fiora loses all pressure. This is simply not true, the moment she gets items she can very competently fight multiple people, it's just all about how adept at Fiora the person piloting her is. Of course she can't be that unkillable dueling goddess if the player is atrocious or even subpar at her, she's very much a mechanical champion past her initial skill floor. Furthermore, Trynd is a balance and gameplay design nightmare in desperate need of a rework, so to compare Fiora to Trynd just means she is also a balance and gameplay design nightmare. >Its a relic of a pre-buffed fiora. She had no win condition, no purpose, and was just a stat stick that killed things and couldnt be escaped, but now she hits turrets real hard and fast. Pre-buffed Fiora was the single best duelist in the game, at least until hyper late. If that's not a purpose I don't know what is. Oh, and before you say anything related to {{item:3161}} I should probably mention that I want that item removed... >Fiora mains even stated that the new buffs were dumb specifically with all the other pre new buff buffs. She will still suffer much like nasus, in the single target, no real utility, no real purpose problem. But at least you cant kite her I guess. Any Fiora buffs are incredibly silly when her current kit can only be balanced to one side or the other. She's either an unkillable dueling machine or she's just that one champion on your team who goes 0/4 by 5 minutes. Also, she's supposed to be weak early, strong mid game and ok late game, but uhhhh....clearly Riot isn't on the same page as us as she's amazing early game, godly mid game and strong late game. She doesn't have a single weak phase in the game, she's just strong throughout the course of the entire game unless she hard feeds. As for your remark about her being comparable to Nasus...no, just no. With Hydra she has monstrous waveclear, and even before her buffs she was an absolute unit at taking down towers. These two traits made her one of the single best splitpushers in the game, along with the fact that she's incredibly good at mitigating damage through usage of her W, mobility and healing. You can't kite her you guess? You shrug that off as if it's not a big deal. I'd say that's a massive deal when she already has so many amazing traits to her. >Top in general needs a look at now. To many champs like that have no real purpose other than to be un1v1able turret pushers that dont really all that well without being over powered. I agree. That's all I really need to say. I agree that these champs need some more clearcut identities. >Kinda like Zed, whats his purpose? whats his goal? just kill 1 person? cant everyone thats ahead do that? Kill one and get out? then why the 1 second self stun? why the 3 second delay on the pop? To be safe? then why the 22 second cd the basic dash? Etc. Cant be viable without insane damage. He kills well over one person when he's even semi-fed. Just watch LL Stylish or any other above average Zed player and you'll see this with your own two eyes. His purpose is to be an assassin who picks off a key target and then gets out through deception, hence why he can swap TWO TIMES before, during or after his assassination (attempt). "Then why the 1 second self stun?" HE GOES UNTARGETABLE! "Why the 3 second delay on the pop?" Because it does a ludicrous amount of damage. "To be safe? then why the 22 second cd the basic dash? Etc. Cant be viable without insane damage." That's early game, and that's because it's the only thing which gates him from spamming his full rotation from an extremely safe distance unlike other assassins. It's not a basic dash either, he can CHOOSE to swap to it, and it's that freedom of choice that makes it such a powerful gapcloser as supposed to other assassins' gapclosers.
Zeds R is designed to have the 1 second untargetability to give zed counterplay. He will spawn directly into cc half the time even when used correctly, and because its targeted he cant even use it vs half the roster effectively. The 3 second delay is actually because the R itself doesn't do much damage much like his entire kit(he cant even use is passive without being strong enough to half health someone). Zed gets to store 3 seconds of damage to pop for 45% of that stored value, this is why it lasts 3 seconds because its a way to remove base damages from zed make him less stat checky. the large cd on the w is actually to make him bad in lane. He was once oppressive, now he isnt. He has clear windows of power that you can play around, and if he uses W defensively, he cant kill you. Not that he could pre 6 anyway. ENERGY is what gates zed from spamming, if he was a mana champ or resource-less sure you could say that. Zed maxes it last, that pre lvl 13 or so. it slowly via cdr scales down till late game, but zed isnt a carry, so why is an assassin having to wait till late game to be strong. Zeds strongest late game. He just is. He has a bad midgame and a subpar early game. This is because the champion is handicapped. He only works if his WEQ 1 shots. He only works when he has so much damage that he doesnt NEED his R(unless someone severely messes up and doesnt respect him at all). Riven can E every single shuriken from lvl 1 till lvl 6. Post 6 she all ins him every time he uses W and kills him. She also forces him to use w just by qing in his general direction. because her q does more damage by itself than his weq combo. I wish zed was good, but he only works when he is overtunned, and or vs terrible players. On the Op to int scale he is Int tier.
KazKaz (OCE)
: >It slows attack speed because its a delayed skillshot, that doesnt even scale. It would only be useful to Fiora if she used it to actually parry something, however, they dont want her parry on a lower cd so they give it damage and attackspeed slow. Yes, but that's the entire purpose of the ability, you parry a CC ability and turn the fight. It's not supposed to be a general ability. That said, it is anyways since it deals damage and slows already, it just makes 0 sense to me as to why she ALSO needs an attack speed slow on top of all this. >Fiora is like Tmere, she doesnt (or before the changes DIDN'T) have a win condition. Her fantasy is being un1v1able, but she isnt un1v1able at any stage really and like most duelists dropping 2 or 3 people on them invalidates their dueling nature. You can send the ad and support top and the fiora loses all pressure. This is simply not true, the moment she gets items she can very competently fight multiple people, it's just all about how adept at Fiora the person piloting her is. Of course she can't be that unkillable dueling goddess if the player is atrocious or even subpar at her, she's very much a mechanical champion past her initial skill floor. Furthermore, Trynd is a balance and gameplay design nightmare in desperate need of a rework, so to compare Fiora to Trynd just means she is also a balance and gameplay design nightmare. >Its a relic of a pre-buffed fiora. She had no win condition, no purpose, and was just a stat stick that killed things and couldnt be escaped, but now she hits turrets real hard and fast. Pre-buffed Fiora was the single best duelist in the game, at least until hyper late. If that's not a purpose I don't know what is. Oh, and before you say anything related to {{item:3161}} I should probably mention that I want that item removed... >Fiora mains even stated that the new buffs were dumb specifically with all the other pre new buff buffs. She will still suffer much like nasus, in the single target, no real utility, no real purpose problem. But at least you cant kite her I guess. Any Fiora buffs are incredibly silly when her current kit can only be balanced to one side or the other. She's either an unkillable dueling machine or she's just that one champion on your team who goes 0/4 by 5 minutes. Also, she's supposed to be weak early, strong mid game and ok late game, but uhhhh....clearly Riot isn't on the same page as us as she's amazing early game, godly mid game and strong late game. She doesn't have a single weak phase in the game, she's just strong throughout the course of the entire game unless she hard feeds. As for your remark about her being comparable to Nasus...no, just no. With Hydra she has monstrous waveclear, and even before her buffs she was an absolute unit at taking down towers. These two traits made her one of the single best splitpushers in the game, along with the fact that she's incredibly good at mitigating damage through usage of her W, mobility and healing. You can't kite her you guess? You shrug that off as if it's not a big deal. I'd say that's a massive deal when she already has so many amazing traits to her. >Top in general needs a look at now. To many champs like that have no real purpose other than to be un1v1able turret pushers that dont really all that well without being over powered. I agree. That's all I really need to say. I agree that these champs need some more clearcut identities. >Kinda like Zed, whats his purpose? whats his goal? just kill 1 person? cant everyone thats ahead do that? Kill one and get out? then why the 1 second self stun? why the 3 second delay on the pop? To be safe? then why the 22 second cd the basic dash? Etc. Cant be viable without insane damage. He kills well over one person when he's even semi-fed. Just watch LL Stylish or any other above average Zed player and you'll see this with your own two eyes. His purpose is to be an assassin who picks off a key target and then gets out through deception, hence why he can swap TWO TIMES before, during or after his assassination (attempt). "Then why the 1 second self stun?" HE GOES UNTARGETABLE! "Why the 3 second delay on the pop?" Because it does a ludicrous amount of damage. "To be safe? then why the 22 second cd the basic dash? Etc. Cant be viable without insane damage." That's early game, and that's because it's the only thing which gates him from spamming his full rotation from an extremely safe distance unlike other assassins. It's not a basic dash either, he can CHOOSE to swap to it, and it's that freedom of choice that makes it such a powerful gapcloser as supposed to other assassins' gapclosers.
I've watched pinkward achieve 20 or more kills on ap shaco from top lane. Killing multiple people at a time in a high elo. Yes people make mistakes and fed champions when fed do damage. The problem with zed and shaco top is that the enemies have to be bad to feed or be playing a weak champion. LL stylish plays consist of someone hard inting like t1 running it down 8 times to him, then LL manages to 3 or 4 combo 1 garen and people between him and garen eventually die in the cross fire. Its something that only occurs when zed is fed and enemies are bad. --- Id rather have a fed camille, irellia, diana, aatrox, voli, fizz, akali etc than a fed zed --- As for fiora, yes being the best duelist was her thing, the problem was she really wasnt. She was strong at dueling but that doesnt matter because 1 death in she was useless. She was entirely based on jg ganks or not. She is currently an edge champion and that theme is too, being good at dueling doesnt matter if you cant ever get a chance to duel. -- Fiora's w is badly designed needs to be a channel that lasts between .1 and .5 seconds based on how long she CHOOSES it to be. Would be far better than now. The .75 second lock out is terrible for both players. -- Unkillable dueling machine or useless, is what happens when jgs are lvl 2 when your lvl 1, and lvls and gold mean more than individual champions. If jgs couldnt risk ganking top, then a dueling machine would be great, but early game dueling machine is literally the worst idea ever invented. If she was safe and scaled up to that sure that be cool but she isnt, pantheon can spear her repeatedly then E her engage then w her after her parry etc. "dueling machine" seems to be a thing riot gives a LOT of champs, and as such those that came before her are either shoved out of the game, or she is. Feels like fiora is an anti-tank, yet tanks arent really that great. If fiora was instead an anti-duelist duelist she could be pretty cool.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eonslegacy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0bc9d9fW,comment-id=000400030001,timestamp=2019-10-14T04:26:15.865+0000) > > He isnt tho, Infact that 2 item spike cho looksa lot like a champ that isnt gonna be reliable. He stomps the ground, then the enemy walks away. Shurelya enables you to either force the enemy to CC you, or you get to silence them. Cho rupture is VERY easy to land in siege scenarios, and the reliability comes from it's short cooldown and his point and click execute (all this talk about "it's so easy to focus the tank" - that's one of cho's greatest strengths is counter tank) > Any mage can buy the speed boost item and use cc to engage. No they can't. An Ori shockwave can not be used so frivolously. > They just know that that they could instead 1 shot 2 people and thats overall stronger and just moving someone slightly faster. one shotting two people? boards exaggeration at it's finest. > mid lane zilean isnt a tank but id rather have him than a front line now because at least the R forces a garunteed amount of stall. The stall time provided by a tank is _**while your carry is still alive**_
zilean prevents then from dying, malphite prevents then from dying, or popppy or whatever. CDr, hunter rune, cdr rune. You can use most moves friveously, especially if it ends in a kill. 1 shotting 2 people occurs with aoe high damage nukes and poor positioning. Something your chogath tank seems to be abusing because that move takes 1.5 seconds to go off from the start of the button press. Cho's entire thematic is that he is unreliable so he gets a malphite ult on his q button. The stall time of any support is while the carry is alive, tank or not, zilean can just do it far better by giving champs like hec the engage speed, slowing the tmere down stunning the back line and rezing his adc at the same time, what can malphite do? push R, the same thing hec was a bout to do, so why have a weak laner when i can have an op jg. Tanks, arent good. Rightous glory morgana does the same except you CANT peel her. Olaf with an orianna ball on him ulting toward your adc witht he w speed buff she gives will be FAR more threatening than a galio.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eonslegacy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0bc9d9fW,comment-id=00040005,timestamp=2019-10-14T04:23:25.278+0000) > > The whole problem with your argument is that {{champion:75}} and the juggernaut line, are more tanky and offer more than the entire tank line. Not. Even. Close. Nasus can not peel OR engage. > Tanks are just melee mages that SUCK so hard they HAVE to build tank stats now. They dont really synergieze at all anymore. It's really the opposite. Tank stats suck so hard they sometimes have to build more aggressively now. (largely to blame things like conqueror/black cleaver for this as it reduces effective gold you spend on armor, blade of the ruined king reduces effective gold you spend on hp also considering that tanks are balanced around earning less gold to begin with) > Syndra can build what malphite builds and be better at it than malphite. Thats currently the problem. Remember victor top. Etc. Again, what? How does syndra engage fights, landing QE is not even close to as reliable as malphite ult. You see things like triple root against IG from neeko and think "wow why bother playing ornn" what? the reason Rookie's double syndra stun is crazy is because it **happens once in a blue moon even for a god. ** And Viktor top was entirely a numbers problem and imbalance in kleptomancy, nothing at all that mages are better tanks than tanks, just that he was able to accrue too much power without punish the way you are supposed to punish scaling champions like that. Same thing with vlad - he isn't a tank, it's the fact that he has a free laning phase, and scaling champions aren't supposed to do that. > CC is on a LOT of champions including mordekaiser. > Would you consider morde a tank? he can blits grip your fiora into the team then if she tries to focus someone shadow realm her. > CC is on a LOT of champions including mordekaiser. > What about {{champion:34}} is she a tank? she has 1 hard cc, 1 unique mechanic thats truly greater cc than most champs, and a aoe massive slow. .... no comment. > She even has built in tank stats via her passive. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE good troll it took me this long to notice
it was partially troll partially fact. Tanks dont offer what they need to offer to be tanks. thats the whole point, the specific examples were to be so out there but still true. Anivia is actually tankier than most tanks now since most kills are executes or true damage nukes, and her passive stops those then eggs her. She does offer cc but we both know the problem is her mana costs. Arent to many solid mana tank items that anivia would utilize. Her small hp pool makes it kinda bad too. The syndra comment could be replaced with hecarim, orianna, malzahar, warwick, fizz, {{champion:103}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:9}} etc, most mages have great engage or pick. The thing is, your thinking about getting someone like malphite directly into the center of the enemies. the problem is thats not what I am talking about. If you want that you can go rightous glory E max morgana, run into 5 people push R with your shield up then zhonyas. Thats FAR more reliable than malphite. Nasus peels by having the entire team run away and focus him, thats kinda what tanks nowadays do. They slow and eat damage until the die. Nasus has almost NO utility yet whenever he is picked in any game i watch, as long as he isnt 0/99 he is the main focus of the enemy team. The problem is that morg binding a malphite has as strong an affect as morg binding a nasus for their team. The target is binded, and the bind is on cooldown. Nasus is actually TANKIER in his R than malphite is. Malphite also cant do anything while binded except slow. Malphite goes full damage because he is a worse tank than a juggernaut. He however, can be a better assasin than zed, he just wont be getting out if he does go in. -- My point is just, riot needs to give tanks a purpose other than do big damages and cc. Peel is just cc used defensively. Engage is just cc used offensively.
: Yes a Glass Cannon Garen can kill a target with Q and E. I agree. Why are you letting a Melee only 1.5-3.5s 30% MS buffed Garen walk up to you and kill you? lol. 1. Kite Him. 2. Kill Him. 3. EZ win.
This is for every single comment you have made. Garen has so much damage, that he doesnt need to build damage anymore. Garen can go 2 damage full tank and still out dps your ryze thats full build. Thats why "kiting" "killing" and "ez win" no longer work. Garen can go 1 full less damage item now, and have FAR more tank stats than before. AND garen can ALSO take spell vamp and heal from that damage making him EVEN tankier. PLUS garen has a % hp shield now instead of % damage reduction, and with all the true damage now, that is MASSIVELY more tanky. He did lose some armor and mr from his w, but that was at the cost of double damage. Old garen did far less than new garen. New garen hits MORE times and each hit hits for MORE damage. Old garen required to spin alone on 1 person with no minions or anything to do full damage and that damage was less than the new garens. New garen can spin on 12 minions and 3 champs and do full damage to the champ he is trying to kill. That is FAR stronger especially with vamp runes. Nullifying orb by itself would have removed the ult. Now it doesnt even affect it. Riste even said, playing garen witha full ap team is a death sentence, because people will build mr and take nullifying or hex and your R is useless even tho they arent trying to build against you. Garen, is, too, strong
HàrrowR (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eonslegacy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1zIKEB3r,comment-id=000600010000000100000001,timestamp=2019-09-24T05:03:00.921+0000) > > Poppy immediatly engaged by landing on a trap, auto eq auto woulda killed poppy nowadays. You're unironically suggesting that full tank poppy would get three shotted by Caitlyn? XDDDDD the boards in a nutshell. Go into a practice tool, do your combo, then reduce it by 5 cause 300 armor poppy with {{item:3047}} {{item:3143}} literally gets critted for 250. Also this was way back when IE gave 250% Crit, Shiv and RFC had 2x stronger passives and Cait passive could be triggered by hurricane bolts which can't be done now. So in reality she would actually do like 30% less damage in the same situation now. Regardless of what your delusional mind thinks.
No, poppy has receive severe nerfs and so has tank itemization since then, before tank items got to 115% cost efficiency now they sit around 80%. Cait has received like 20 buffs since she was once op, BUFFS when she was once OP. Why? because ad itemization changes made her midgame lul pointless, and the goon squad bot made early game pointless. HER w didnt use to add the bonus damgae it does now, her full combo of 3 headshots does 50% more damage than before, plus hse has crit scaling on her passive she didnt have before. Cait would literally 3 shot her at full build. Games dont typically get full build anymore because of how broken damage is. I have indeed comboed the training dummy full build, and it does 8k damage or more. A better cait could do it faster for more. thats 100 armor dummy, a full build poppy shouldnt have over 500 armor or she doesnt have EFFECTIVE hp. 1 lord doms and thats down to 300. not to mention super squishy vs magic damage. Yes poppy is tanky. But caits unique mechanic is avoidable, and as such its super busted strong. Poppys defense isnt avoidable, you have to go through it, so much like all tanks, its NOT strong. Thats ignoring a bubble where i could give her cutdown or conqueror. Poppy typically goes tforce, 1 damage item, into tank, or tforce into tank. She is rarely FULL 6 item tank. But yes that poppy would have instantly died. But in nowadays game, it wouldnt make it that far.
LeAzir (NA)
: When the enemy lane is pushed up and at half health, generally, it's a good idea to gank that lane
Certain laners have been balanced around the idea they shove, and are gankable{{champion:58}} or are terrible for the first 3 or 4 levels and food for junglers {{champion:38}} {{champion:8}} . Because of this, even skilled jgs have a lot of pressure on their heads. Tho most players arent skilled, and most arent skilled from game to game. Jg has so much power, especially with things like pantheon, that the players are probably 1 league higher than their skill should be. I mean, imagine if your laning, and your jungler is actually where he is supposed to be in gold or silver, those games just end near instantly. imagine if your jg wasnt the 0/3 or 4 jax that lost to a blits crank ad jungle. yeaaaa.
BigFBear (EUW)
: Buy {{item:3053}}
ah yes a damage item, that gives you more effective health than the entire tank line.
: My favorite part is when you do your hardest to dodge every skillshot they throw at you, but inevitably one of them is going to hit because of how spammable abilities of certain champs become later on, and then you immediately get punished with death for getting hit once.
{{champion:82}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:51}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:80}} Yep. Tho sometimes the point and click removes teh option to dodge.
: ... Yes? All three of those champions I listed have ranged wave clear... and INSANE gank setup. I specifically use sion and galio to beat akali, and cho's sustain can't be punished like in top lane being zoned from wave - you just get that free sustain and assassins can't keep up when they keep taking 200 dmg from silence. Sylas and akali Q do like no damage in lane if you don't hit the explosion/auto passive respectively.
Cho can be built full ap and those "gank setups" are just you 1 shotting the enemy without NEED of a jg. THen with all the stax you have you can build resistances instead of health, and be tankier than a tank tank. Veigar can also go full tank, why? cc and damage, but even then its not that strong. Tanks arent tanky. I had an enemy full tank ww attack my yasuo, and he didnt even break through my bloodthirster shield to proc my passive after 5 seconds of fighting(nearly 3 of which i was cced. either by my q cast or my R or his fear or his R). Tanks arent tanky, they just scale damage with tank stats which results in them building tank items to DO damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=ihateyouallmuted,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0bc9d9fW,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-10-13T05:57:17.000+0000) > > I'm gonna come in with a hard disagree. > > When you are the tank, you are the de facto leader. This is not fun for some people, and dying is never either. This is hard truth coming. > > **Dying is a necessary part of League of Legends** > > Do you really think you will 5 - 0 every team fight, or that every lane will go smoothly? League of Legends players have this exact same unrealistic expectation as Rocket League players. Nobody makes every shot - actually nobody. So do not fear death, especially not as the tank. things like 3v4 and 5v5 fights are **made **by one person dying really well. It's such a strange phrase - dying well. This is the skill I believe makes me climb in Solo Q as a tank player. > > Theorycraft - TL;DR "tank" doesn't mean i can't die, it means I force the enemy to choose to kill me > > Carries rely on teammates - as well, you rely on your teammates no matter what (to not int and lose you the game, ping missing hopefully). I say, do not shy away from this intrinsic technicality. This is where most solo Q mentality lose the bigger picture. Bad "teams" make bad decisions, this causes them to lose (solo q players do not like to pretend they are only 1 in 5, this automatically gives me advantage). Tank is hard for most players because MAKING decisions unilaterally is hard to do, and sometimes you get flamed. > > This is fine. If you are mekanik god reaction time, then it is probably better for you to play hyper carry, but humble yourself for just a moment and imagine - how hard you win when you actually win on tanks. Diving towers is "tricky" with some champions. With tank? I am killed? Well, it took you only "a few seconds" while I was tanking a tower. A few seconds was much more for my team to do, I automatically won the GAME by dying. This conceptually accelerates the entire process. You no longer need macro when you have advantage as tank, you literally just bulldoze with Demolish and by virtue of giving your behind teammates or carries your mid game resources. When you do not have advantage as tank... it still works exactly like this! You do not need a second skill set, or to be prodigy born with umbilical cord and mouse cord the same. Most times, you don't even need to outplay honestly. _**Just do the thing.**_ No matter what, you get to do the thing. An Ori shockwave will do jack shit if you have 140 ap at 25 minutes, but i do not need to do jack shit except hit the skill as tank. How is that not fun? With this in mind, you are easily able to win your support auto fill games as well, which really helps the climb. > > Anecdotally - TL;DR masturbatory sion one trick > > When I see I have people who hover Fiora top and Shaco jungle - I say, now is my time to shine - > > I am not a passenger because I am the **_tank_** > > I am **_not_** a passenger _**because**_ I am the tank > > Am I ori, zoe, syndra, of course I have my games, they are mid lane requirements with the recent buffs and zoe just runs games in good match up. But these champs can not use my macro skill quite as well as my micro, and i am much smarter than i am good. > > Playing a tank feels great - harder to die while warding, and always useful. I only play Sion, Cho, and Galio in ranked for the most part. Playing a tank TOP can be boring, but in mid lane sets me up to bring my CC to other lanes while mostly ignoring or bullying assassins and mages, who die to any single gank where (Sion E slow, Cho Rupture, Galio Taunt) land. Playing a tank just now requires far more finesse, patience, and willingness to adapt than ever before. > > Pros play sion mid with spellbook - I like it on Sion and Cho, and I even go aery if I think im about to crush it (melee users get much better use from aery than comet due to return speed). I build trinity force into warmogs on sion - not 40% cdr from defenses. Phage is a busted first item on Sion. if you use your E on a minion who dies, you gain 60 move speed while ALSO slowing the enemy - throw in approach velocity, can not escape Q without flash. > > Cho & Galio get to build my favorite item combo in the game - {{item:3027}} {{item:2065}} SO FKEN CHEAP! two item spike so fast. > > It is easy to say that I am not really playing a tank then. > > Of course I am. I do not have to build randuins to automatically qualify for this title. But you can not play a useless champion anymore - you have to be a "threat." The damage meta works in your favor this way, actually, the same dmg added to a smaller hp is more impactful. It's not by any means defensive item is bad, spectres cowl and ninja tabi are both insane abuse to dps laners, and champions who rely on burst can not always secure alone if you aren't ape playing like OP implies he should be allowed to do. > > It is easy to say that better carry players will punish me much harder. > > I do not know. Only diamond in NA. I haven't fought Faker and I never will. I use my skill set and I succeed. > > It is easy to say, "why me Riot?" > > It is harder to be brave. You're out here spitting wisdom and getting down voted for it. The boards lack in common sense
He isnt tho, Infact that 2 item spike cho looksa lot like a champ that isnt gonna be reliable. He stomps the ground, then the enemy walks away. Any mage can buy the speed boost item and use cc to engage. They just know that that they could instead 1 shot 2 people and thats overall stronger and just moving someone slightly faster. Hec mid lane zilean isnt a tank but id rather have him than a front line now because at least the R forces a garunteed amount of stall. He has plenty of cc to spare too.
: I'm gonna come in with a hard disagree. When you are the tank, you are the de facto leader. This is not fun for some people, and dying is never either. This is hard truth coming. **Dying is a necessary part of League of Legends** Do you really think you will 5 - 0 every team fight, or that every lane will go smoothly? League of Legends players have this exact same unrealistic expectation as Rocket League players. Nobody makes every shot - actually nobody. So do not fear death, especially not as the tank. things like 3v4 and 5v5 fights are **made **by one person dying really well. It's such a strange phrase - dying well. This is the skill I believe makes me climb in Solo Q as a tank player. Theorycraft - TL;DR "tank" doesn't mean i can't die, it means I force the enemy to choose to kill me Carries rely on teammates - as well, you rely on your teammates no matter what (to not int and lose you the game, ping missing hopefully). I say, do not shy away from this intrinsic technicality. This is where most solo Q mentality lose the bigger picture. Bad "teams" make bad decisions, this causes them to lose (solo q players do not like to pretend they are only 1 in 5, this automatically gives me advantage). Tank is hard for most players because MAKING decisions unilaterally is hard to do, and sometimes you get flamed. This is fine. If you are mekanik god reaction time, then it is probably better for you to play hyper carry, but humble yourself for just a moment and imagine - how hard you win when you actually win on tanks. Diving towers is "tricky" with some champions. With tank? I am killed? Well, it took you only "a few seconds" while I was tanking a tower. A few seconds was much more for my team to do, I automatically won the GAME by dying. This conceptually accelerates the entire process. You no longer need macro when you have advantage as tank, you literally just bulldoze with Demolish and by virtue of giving your behind teammates or carries your mid game resources. When you do not have advantage as tank... it still works exactly like this! You do not need a second skill set, or to be prodigy born with umbilical cord and mouse cord the same. Most times, you don't even need to outplay honestly. _**Just do the thing.**_ No matter what, you get to do the thing. An Ori shockwave will do jack shit if you have 140 ap at 25 minutes, but i do not need to do jack shit except hit the skill as tank. How is that not fun? With this in mind, you are easily able to win your support auto fill games as well, which really helps the climb. Anecdotally - TL;DR masturbatory sion one trick When I see I have people who hover Fiora top and Shaco jungle - I say, now is my time to shine - I am not a passenger because I am the **_tank_** I am **_not_** a passenger _**because**_ I am the tank Am I ori, zoe, syndra, of course I have my games, they are mid lane requirements with the recent buffs and zoe just runs games in good match up. But these champs can not use my macro skill quite as well as my micro, and i am much smarter than i am good. Playing a tank feels great - harder to die while warding, and always useful. I only play Sion, Cho, and Galio in ranked for the most part. Playing a tank TOP can be boring, but in mid lane sets me up to bring my CC to other lanes while mostly ignoring or bullying assassins and mages, who die to any single gank where (Sion E slow, Cho Rupture, Galio Taunt) land. Playing a tank just now requires far more finesse, patience, and willingness to adapt than ever before. Pros play sion mid with spellbook - I like it on Sion and Cho, and I even go aery if I think im about to crush it (melee users get much better use from aery than comet due to return speed). I build trinity force into warmogs on sion - not 40% cdr from defenses. Phage is a busted first item on Sion. if you use your E on a minion who dies, you gain 60 move speed while ALSO slowing the enemy - throw in approach velocity, can not escape Q without flash. Cho & Galio get to build my favorite item combo in the game - {{item:3027}} {{item:2065}} SO FKEN CHEAP! two item spike so fast. It is easy to say that I am not really playing a tank then. Of course I am. I do not have to build randuins to automatically qualify for this title. But you can not play a useless champion anymore - you have to be a "threat." The damage meta works in your favor this way, actually, the same dmg added to a smaller hp is more impactful. It's not by any means defensive item is bad, spectres cowl and ninja tabi are both insane abuse to dps laners, and champions who rely on burst can not always secure alone if you aren't ape playing like OP implies he should be allowed to do. It is easy to say that better carry players will punish me much harder. I do not know. Only diamond in NA. I haven't fought Faker and I never will. I use my skill set and I succeed. It is easy to say, "why me Riot?" It is harder to be brave.
The whole problem with your argument is that {{champion:75}} and the juggernaut line, are more tanky and offer more than the entire tank line. Tanks are just melee mages that SUCK so hard they HAVE to build tank stats now. They dont really synergieze at all anymore. Syndra can build what malphite builds and be better at it than malphite. Thats currently the problem. Remember victor top. Etc. CC is on a LOT of champions including mordekaiser. Would you consider morde a tank? he can blits grip your fiora into the team then if she tries to focus someone shadow realm her. What about {{champion:34}} is she a tank? she has 1 hard cc, 1 unique mechanic thats truly greater cc than most champs, and a aoe massive slow. She even has built in tank stats via her passive. Thats the main problem with tanks rn, they arent TANKS they are melee juggernauts/bruisers/mages that cant build anything else, OR go full damage instead {{champion:54}} {{champion:3}} for instance
Saezio (EUNE)
: It's not even a bad choice to focus the tank anymore :/
There are plenty of champs that actually prefer focusing tanks, {{champion:157}} easy life recovery and ult priming. {{champion:122}} 5 stacks for free? yes please. {{champion:106}} i mean, this dude aint gonna move so free lightning spam he will live longer than the back line for sure. {{champion:63}} easiest triple stack of my life. {{champion:222}} only takes 1 death to get the penta. {{champion:82}} so many free stats {{champion:555}} a kill is a kill right? gold for gold {{champion:18}} free resets {{champion:55}} again free resets {{champion:24}} stax {{champion:15}} safe richochet time. {{champion:16}} i heal more than they do anyway q q {{champion:48}} SO MANY FREE STATS {{champion:8}} positively draining {{champion:45}} AP ap APPPP
Jack Eron (EUNE)
: When i die over 1,5 seconds as a 700 armor tank malphite against a FULL AD enemy team... it tells everything.
La Bello (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sageace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0bc9d9fW,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-10-13T02:27:21.339+0000) > > It's not just itemization that is the problem. > > It's also the runes. Too much damage there. tank-killing runes are so overkill. I honestly dont think conq and cut down should have ever been things. literally every class has anti-tank items and a wide wide pool of champions nwo also have anti-tank effects or abilities. combine this with the NATURAL mulplicative nature of offense vs defence its like... "why"? and to make things worse every single time Riot touches a tank for buffs its ONLY ever putting more damage on them. like theyve completely accepted that Malphtie just cant frontline anymore and is instead in a kill them b4 they kill u world.
here we go. Conqueror check, overshield, check, bloodline, check,cut down, check, alright so I just buffed my health by 10+10%, heal for 8% of my damage PLUS up to 12% more, AND i do 15% more damage which scales the healing and damage up. Then i can opt into 2 resistance runes vs the enemy tank cutting base damages down. THEN I can take a side tree and gain the same tank stats they are going for, OR things like taste of blood for more healing. {{sticker:vlad-salute}} now everyonesa vladimir.
Sageace (NA)
: It's not just itemization that is the problem. It's also the runes. Too much damage there.
damage and healing FROM damage. Allows squishy champs to be equally tanky as tanks but tanks dont get tankier unless they do ridiculous damage.
: Buy MR and all of their damage isn't gonna kill you. You would have to be stupid enough to die to 0 damage items tanks like them, especially Sej since her % max health damage went down to being a flat % all levels.
Poppy?{{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}} that one works right?
: It keeps damaging him in his pool sure, but unless you got morello and enough ap to actually outdps his healing it's kinda irrelevant that you immobilize yourself to give him the succ.
But but.. fear. immobilizies vlad and then the dark wind silences him. Feels like vlad loses all fights here.
: W {{champion:9}} Is the hard counter to Vlad You're welcome
Sucction (OCE)
: Dunno how he's free elo when Vlad top is currently sitting at 48.2% wr plat+ on op.gg Aight tho
Top vlad is trash tbh. He just has potential to be a carry late game, and frees up mid for an ad unit.
Moody P (NA)
: I liked playing as/against old Vladimir better. It was cool being a DPS AOE drain monster; now hes just vampire Annie. Kinda lame
Vampire annie, but without cc or a bear. So... kinda lame at everything.{{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}}
: even IF you apply wounds to vlad, what does it matter? oh he only heals 600 instead of 1k while also taking half my hp bar at the same time. THAT WAS 800g WORTH INVESTED!!!
400 damage, every single q? for 800 gold? would you rather spend 3.7k on trinity force to add 400 to your FULL rotation instead? Ends with the same result. Grievous wounds is about theoretical damage. Vs mundo, vlad and lifestealers like aatrox or fid, 800 gold gives a unique passive that does 1 or 2k damage by itself. thats like if serrated dirk said, Do 500 bonus damage on your first auto attack vs any champion with mana, 20 second cooldown. Yes it doesnt feel the same, no it cant actually physically KILL them, but it can be WHY they died.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jFwzwhU,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-10-13T12:14:44.376+0000) > > I mean I haven't watched any pro play for a very long time but I feel like vlad is probably played a shitload in pro Vlad been basically the same champ in pros for a couple of years now. He only isn't pick/ban because other stuff is often more broken and he doesn't fit all team comps due to really needing to hit 2 items. But when teams pick him in the correct spot he pretty much always 1 v 9s with no counterplay whatsoever. On top of that EU and NA pick him less then CN and KR and the balance team never pays attention to those regions for pro balance for some odd reason.
They pick the safest drain tank, because drain tanks are broken, and safe drain tanks have very very very little counterplay.
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jFwzwhU,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-13T15:50:35.388+0000) > > Ah, I mean you're talking about Vladimir Top, then yes, it works a litlle bit different, but as long as Vlad is capable of freezing close to his turrent he should be alright. But yes, in top lane he loses a lot because of his weakness to most bruisers all ins. > In the mid lane works a bit different because the lane is much shorter and I think that the best Vlad is mid Vlad for sure. I completely disagree mid vlad has to deal with champions that can actually out range or match range and deal with him by superior damage Top, half the time he plays the lane out as a lane bully, bc playing melees in this game sucks ass, while scaling into an unkillable monster
Damage doesnt matter if you cant get his hp to 0. Vlads strength against mages early is they use mana to push AND to poke, and he doesnt, he can farm WHILE healing himself. Early game (with the chapter nerfs) a LOT of mages will OOm trying to kill him. Post first back vlad can easily farm while you back for mana until he backs the moment you get in lane and he is now got his {{item:3108}} and {{item:1028}} only needs 400 gold for the upgrade, so he will let you get lvl 6 and shove him out, he will come into lane with {{item:3067}} and {{item:1033}} or a {{item:1029}} and then he can ignore you. JG pressure is what breaks vlad.
Saezio (EUNE)
: You can send your counter to vlad's lane? like what? If he goes top to avoid the zed, you send the zed top
Saezio (EUNE)
: Any early lane bully(think {{champion:122}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:23}})+ competent jungler pressure for 3 minutes (3min-6mins or so) can make the vlad useless. The key is to be constantly all ining in the early phases when vlad has Q only level 1,2 or 3. This way you end up with such a humongous advantage at level 9 (when vlad becomes a champion) that you can even then all in him at every opportunity.
Problem is, the jg pressure part. If you dont get it and he does he just always scales and you NEVER no matter what you play win vs him and he always scales. Junglers dont seem to want to gank, especially anything non-bot lane in most elos(diamond and below). This is why people hate him. His counterplay results in the laners extending their necks for enemy jg to kill them.
iDarkWind (EUW)
: That's simply not true. Vlad early game clearly isn't good by any means, but one of the biggest strenghts that I think he has is that altough he is a mid / late game champion he does not suffer as much as others late game champions during laning phase, because of his sustain. It is not that simple to bully a good Vladimir during the early game. Also, the "takes at least 2 items to come online" is not true unless the items you're speaking off are {{item:3108}} + {{item:3067}} . With only those two components he almost denies his early game weakness and proceed to simply Q the minions and survive until mid and late game. Obviously that his sustain does not deny his weakness when it comes to early game squirmishes and roams, but he's one of the safest scaling champions in the game, in my opinion.
yep, vlad has a LOT of sustain and saftey. you have to go super aggro on him early to win lane, which opens you up to jungle ganks, meanwhile he spends most of the time running away making your jungler less likely to gank FOR you. Fiddle is his hardest counter tho. point and click fear and a straw.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: the fact that you think zed and akali beat vlad is hilarious
akali can win if vlad shoves, its entirely in vlads hands if he dies. zed never wins ever. Need some ridiculous build like static shiv Ie essence reaver with hail of blades and a w max or something ludicrous. Even being fed doesnt work sadly.
Saezio (EUNE)
: If he is mid, why is your midlaner not 1v1 murdering him? {{champion:84}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:246}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:61}} Anyone can 1v1 him or make him back like so many times he is extremely behind in CS AND XP
In mid, its harder than top, most mid laners arent supposed to kill the enemy midlaner do to how many outs they have. Its usually up to ganks to get that going or really bad matchups. Vs fizz he just pulls the ultimate. Vs orianna he just trades 1 spell for 1 spell and wins. vs leblanc he actually doesnt win that one, he can farm under tower and push her in tho. Build spirit visage or such. Vs akali, this is on of those matchups where he can definatly be farmed. Her e e auto spam till he gets to turret is pretty lethal, however, his he has to be past the half way point to get threatened that way. Mid has a lot less time to auto people than top lane, and autoing vlad during first 3 lvls is his weakness. Zed doesnt ever win vs vlad. Outside of roaming. If your killing a vlad on zed he is terrible. Vlads pull has a lower cd than zeds shadow, and zed cant even do enough via his Q to stop vlad from just ignoring him and qing minions.
Charmy Bird (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jFwzwhU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-13T11:19:42.342+0000) > > Is Vladimir a pro problem? > > Aatrox was too much of a safe lane bully, that's why he got gutted. > > Vladimir can be destroyed in lane, and takes at least 2 items to be somewhat threatening. > > If you pick any champion with decent early lane phase vlad can't even farm. And if your jungler is not pisspoor trash, vlad will be focus ganked and enemy team will be playing 4v5 essentially If he is mid he is legit ungankable with his w.
Vlad is weak enough to not need be ganked in the mid lane. He doesnt threaten most mid laners unless he is far past the half way point of lane, then if you cant gank him your just a terrible jungler taht has 0 skill and is playing some seriously off meta crap. Vlad can kinda counter assasins. thats kinda his roll. But he does so by being a big threat in teamfights, because he cant stop them from roaming which is WHY you pick assasins.
: Riot : "Aatrox is too unhealthy we have to keep nerfing him after we buff him"
> [{quoted}](name=XJ99999999999999,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jFwzwhU,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-13T09:26:21.398+0000) > > Also riot : but vlad is ok and it's ok if he has an ability that makes him untargable + deal damage and can combo it with zhonyas and both zhonyas and pool combo well with his abilities and passive. > > i dont get it. a champion with ranged and can heal 1k+ easily is beyond broken for the longest time, free elo, yet it isnt an issue. > > i mean it doesnt honestly surprise me, they are the skin balance team for a reason, and gotta keep lcs flashy with all the "risky" plays and high damage (chinese pc cafes) > > I remember when Vlad was the terrible early, ok mid, and good late game TEAM FIGHT ONLY champion. .But now he just demonlishes ur ass 1v1 because CDR is broken and vlad is broken. > > "apply grrevious woundS" good idea, I can totally apply it as soon as he comes out of pool/zhonyas before he heals a juicy 1k+ . good idea. Because theres a lot of matchups where vladimir gets rekt so hard that he is lvl 1 to irelias lvl 7. (seen that one was funny vlad made 1 mistake and then never got to get to lane again.) Until vlad gets his pool, any champ with ad that can leap large distances and has attackspeed scaling can just farm him. However, he does scale into a monster and counters pretty much everything else by just not dying till you oom. Not FUN at all to play against. Aatrox doesnt have that unique problem, he can auto attack enemies back, because high base ad and an ad scaling champion. However, that is actually how you beat him, so either he has no weakness or he is useless. Thats where his design is rn. ----- Vlad can fight ranged mobile auto attackers on fair ground, Aatrox cant, he either kills them during R or dies during R. His q takes to long to go off and the first q does less than a bork auto from vayne etc. however, if you buff his damage he can just steamroll them by trading his first q for their auto until they die. He has a terrible terrible terrible design. -- Vlad gains health from damage, and damage from health, and has healing thats ranged and safe. Aatrox gains damage on damage, and health on damage, and heals from melee range which is ridiculously unsafe. Vlad can be nerfed to the point he is super weak in lane but strong late game. AAtrox cant, he is either strong early and mid and late or weak early mid and late.
Juice (EUNE)
: Countered by many champs with range His new build makes him squishy so CC him = insta dead Jax destroys him late game Fiora is a good counter Urgot counters him He has too many bad match ups, 53% win rate is nothing alarming, many champs have had 53%+ win rates for MONTHS and still do. Garen is still underpowered, he's just good at stomping low elo
6 items garen spins on the training dummy (with conqueror rune choice) for 10-15k damage. Thats not something that should be possible especially since it has 100 armor. Now clearly thats over kill, so most garens SHOULD stop with 2 or 3 damage items depending on the enemy team. The rest is full tank. Thats why he isnt squishy. thats why he has a winrate thats high. TRUE DAMAGE DUNK that scales off enemys stats :D and has a high base D: {{sticker:garen-swing}}
Juice (EUNE)
: Countered by many champs with range His new build makes him squishy so CC him = insta dead Jax destroys him late game Fiora is a good counter Urgot counters him He has too many bad match ups, 53% win rate is nothing alarming, many champs have had 53%+ win rates for MONTHS and still do. Garen is still underpowered, he's just good at stomping low elo
If garen was kitable, squishy, and instadead to cc, plus easily destroyed late game/ in lane, then he would NOT have a high winrate. He has a high winrate, AND a high pickrate, AND its in high elo where those things should matter. The problem is he is as squishy as a yasuo with bloodthirster and phantom dancer without building defense, AND he has that same damage. I can go Static shiv IE, on garen and spin a black cleaver steraks illaoi dead in 1 spin combo, i can then go full tank and that will let me spin and DUNk illaoi come late game, and spin anything else dead. --- The problem with garen is his damage scales so fast and hard, that he can penta spin for more damage than a twitch in his R with runnans and 6 items at just 2 items. This allows him to be both SUPER tanky and SUPER bursty and with high sustained damage(crit attackspeed lets you right click, attackspeed on hit lets you right click, raw ad and health doesnt-his old build). Attack speed scaling removed garens weakness of being weak without cds, and the extra damage scaling removed the need to auto attack at all (its just over kill).
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