kaijukitten
(NA)
GinoSoldier
(NA)
My idea of a crit rework is to work it directly into certain champions' kits as a unique, situational modifier balanced *per champion* to promote better gameplay than crit fishing, easy example being Caitlyn's Headshots and Vayne's Silver Bolts. Buy crit to be more rewarded for skillful play and enable burst patterns.
My idea of a lifesteal rework is basically to gut the fuck out of healing from essentially every source that isn't a support champion or Garen/Vlad, replace with shields/damage reduction methods where applicable, and make EVERY support champion able to heal and good at it. Like as an example, Braum shields up, whenever he blocks damage, it heals him and people close behind for X% with a phat bonus for the first hit. Lifesteal is gutted so that even a build focusing strictly on that only has like 6% LS.
It has the added benefit of knocking mage parasites out of supp lane, and making supports actually needed/appreciated.
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TwitchInMyPants
(NA)
GinoSoldier
(NA)
> [{quoted}](name=TwitchInMyPants,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=diYORY2c,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-12-04T19:29:37.670+0000)
>
> There is actually 0 reason for the support items to nerf your income when finished
>
> If there's any reason its to guarantee Supports are poor compared to the other classes, if they want supports to actually be mini carries or to actually build items its a terrible change. And given the patch notes it seems intentional.
Or, you know, they could actually raise supp item price and efficiency to be on par with everyone else. Then they don't have to be poor!
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IloveIsa7
(NA)
The difference is that presently if either Yasuo OR Malphite find a way to ult you, you're probably dead, and them comboing just deals obscene amounts of overkill damage.
If a dedicated play from two champions could be just enough to guarantee the death of one unless that one really outperforms them, i call that actually fair and balanced.
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hhaavviikk
(EUW)
Crit and Lifesteal are indeed toxic to the game in their present form. It's completely abnormal that ADCs lategame can outheal an enchanter's ability to sustain them. Why even have an enchanter at all? Might as well get a mage down here to burst the other ADC before he lifesteals himself up too.
And then people whine about too much damage.
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Pika310
(NA)
Pickrate is an indication of popularity, not power. It IS true that Sona isn't popular, and part of the reason is that she delivers poorly on the musical support theme compared to what it could be, along with being a champion whose lore can be summarized as "mute keyboard big tiddies chick".
I'm not happy with the state she's in either (even though we have *vastly* different opinions of what that should be), but truth is her present day winrate is still 51% on the same website you cited, implying that this "Troll" champion is still a very viable pick today.
Maybe not in pro-play, fine. But what the fuck would we care for? We aren't pro-players.
A full on revert would only make her even more boring as fuck to play than she is now (and would probably drop her playrate even more). I'd much rather they went for a third, new direction for Sona if they ever work on her at all.
Oh, also; I'm not the one calling her a trash champ, why am i the hater here?
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Pika310
(NA)
You did the moment you mentioned the LCS.
That said, Riot owes you or me *nothing*. 4.13 went live normally like every other patch ever, and Sona has a *factually* usable kit, because while not the best OP kit, people still play her even now, and have been playing her since 4.13, and they've been winning enough to justify more nerfs.
If you're so unhappy about her kit you HAVE to post negative stuff everytime the champion is so much as mentioned on the forums, maybe it's time you left.
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Pika310
(NA)
Pro play is detrimental to the health of the game. The less you hear about it the better, and hopefully it dies in a bonfire somewhere.
It also doesn't represent Sona's viability in the game for normal people whose lives aren't 95% consumed by being the best at the game.
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Pika310
(NA)
Yes, yes we know. You hate the champ's rework.
Meanwhile still one of the most powerful and influential champions in a full-on teamfight.
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Kaluchii
(EUW)
Sona appears literally nowhere. It's no surprise though, Sona's better at helping out teams rather than players. Does hint at her laning phase being too weak though.
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Silent Pace
(NA)
You shall forever be guilty of this.
{{sticker:vlad-salute}}
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Bianca Colt
(EUW)
The issue to me is that while Soraka sacrifices HP to heal a single target, then has to hit Q to get it back, Senna can hit *multiple* allies to heal including herself while also dealing non-negligible damage and resetting AA. A skilled Senna who can land Q's on multiple hits i feel can easily match a Soraka over the course of a game, and definitely outheal her in lane due to systematically healing herself as well as her ally.
Sona has that feature, targeting multiple champions. And her heal is restricted to two targets, was nerfed to pathetic base values in lane, and costs an overwhelming amount of mana to boot. If the W cast does not block damage, it's literally wasted mana.
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Silent Pace
(NA)
And my comment was referring to her power ADC-wise. It's entirely true that removing the lifesteal component altogether wouldn't hurt support Senna at all.
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boricCentaur1
(NA)
GinoSoldier
(NA)
Sona Rank 1 W for 30 to two people, with a shield that almost doubles that value if well timed... for 85 mana.
Senna's is waaay more powerful.
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Karn Bishop
(NA)
You ignored all the points made in the OP. Draven, Jinx and Ashe have the exact same weakness as Senna, and yet Senna is the one who can heal herself and an ally while also dealing damage, and get free lisfesteal later in the game. She also has a root that is in essence better than Jinx's.
Not saying Senna is a god, but it IS clear she has more strengths than weaknesses.
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P0IS0N IVY
(NA)
Ahahaha, i gifted something to someone not even in my friendlist anymore back over a year ago and i still get notifications everytime.
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PyroJackalope
(NA)
GinoSoldier
(NA)
Sure, but you still only paid minimal gold for it. A lot less than old Sightstone for a lot more.
I'm just as likely as you to sell it later in the game, believe me. But at least it's cost efficient while it's there.
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blindasleep
(NA)
GinoSoldier
(NA)
I don't get it either. The login name has zero value to me, so i really can't relate to this specific mob.
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C9 Scott
(NA)
GinoSoldier
(NA)
This is unbelievable.
Support role would be removed long before the lane with half the LCS big plays champs in the game. Plus Riot hates vision and doesn't know what to do with champs who have a defensive role.
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TobiaskJ
(NA)
You get assist, kill and *some* minion poaching gold, ward kills, and objectives more than your afk opponent. Aside from that, yes, both are gated to 1k quest income
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Daedric Etwahl
(NA)
And now, we have to imagine poor Rioters trying to find some kind of middle grounds to our opinions (and probably a dozen others!). Poor guys. Maybe that's why they haven't done anything?
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Daedric Etwahl
(NA)
"A fitting recital" in this case could be literally anything. I don't disagree with you. It could be to protect those she loves and whatnot. But tell me why she chose to enter the League, back then. Her stated motive from the old Bio was that it was the only stage befitting her talents and abilities.
I also agree with you that she certainly didn't want to see Lestara die. That much was clear, Sona loves Lestara. The text also says that it's the *only* voice she loves more than music. Therefore anyone and everyone else is beneath.
These two reasons are why i see Sona as a straight up, near-Draven level diva who wants center-stage for her performance. If that means she has to heal someone, she will. If it means that she has to put herself in danger to help allies, she will. If that means she has to chop aforementioned Draven to pieces, she will. If it means she has to out-psycho Jhin, she will.
That said, I don't want Sona to carry two dozen skeletons in her closet. She doesn't have to be a musical version of Elizabeth Bathory either.
But morally grey simply means they aren't perfect and have some level of issues to deal with. It doesn't have to be world shattering, mind blowing, teeth grinding issues. It can just be; "She has spent most of her life isolated from people beyond a very select few, and has trouble interacting with people as equals beyond what she can offer with her musical talents, having relied too strongly on her instrument in her life. She has come to view her performances as far more important."
It checks most of the squares, if basic, and still opens the door to interesting storytelling, especially if we throw her into mid-crisis Demacia where many people will look up to and need a powerful mage to guide them, and where people may investigate or even hunt her. It means she's likely to make mistakes or bad choices she can grow from as a character.
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Daedric Etwahl
(NA)
I'm just not sure Sona's the best vessel for that though. Especially since of the old enchanters, Taric, Soraka, Janna and Nami (and Yuumi) are all already confirmed undoubtedly good, and we have tidbits of old lore talking about Sona practicing hurting people just to be able to join the league.
Although, I certainly agree that we could all do with less Kayn/Yasuo/Aphelios types and more Braum/Nunu/Tristana though.
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Daedric Etwahl
(NA)
Another possibility, (darkin-less, i promise!) would be, IF Sona is still adopted by Demacian House Buvelle, to have her welcome Lux and all the mages they can gather into Buvelle territory, where they try to live their lives as Demacians, but open with magic.
Would put those characters into an interesting opposing position to both Sylas and J4's vengeance trip and be grounds for a move forward.
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Daedric Etwahl
(NA)
Oh heck, it's THAT guy! Yea i remember his name tag now.
Too hostile for my tastes.
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Daedric Etwahl
(NA)
Still think it *could* be done right. Do i trust Riot to do it right? Not sure. Still my headcanon for now, knowing it's just that.
The only thing *I* would absolutely hate would be for Sona to be made into little more than another goodie two shoes personality type to appeal to the waifu fans.
To be fair it's entirely Riot's fault. Basically 10 years with the tiniest shred of lore to go by let fans have vividly different ideas of the champion.
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Daedric Etwahl
(NA)
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Zero Drive
(NA)
I find extremely interesting that in her League Judgment, her instrument speaks to her, and acts of its own accord.
It'd be amazing if Sona turned out to have a Darkin for a soundboard. So much lore potential there, and everything checks out.
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Pika310
(NA)
If she's unplayable, why am i still winning so much then? Midlane and Support both.
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iSennª
(NA)
Dunno, i'm still rocking with Sona, haven't felt the changes at all.
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KVbqbFsC8e
(NA)
Yeah, i get that Klepto caused gold income issues, but imma be honest as a Sona player, it did something no other keystone does for me. It was really, REALLY fucking *fun* to use.
I'd rather they had removed the gold income, made the items just the three stat buff pots and some random fun stuff instead.
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BigBrainSuppMain
(EUW)
My issue with this, and especially adding control wards is IF we hit late game, we're asked to peel Aatrox/Irelia/Riven from our carries with essentially one empty item slot, two gimp items and two actually decent tank items.
Usually just ends with either you and your carry dead because you're too weak to matter, or you die and your carry runs away, again because you're too weak to defend yourself.
Sure sometimes you'll win it, but it seems to me like a 2v1 should have better odds than that.
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D357R0Y3R
(EUW)
I mean, who even reads comments before answering? Is this 2016?
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D357R0Y3R
(EUW)
Garen is not a tank, Mundo barely qualifies.
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FURRY V2
(EUNE)
Single indeed.
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WoonStruck
(NA)
GinoSoldier
(NA)
I'd rather just delete every support from the game, delete non-trinket wards, delete support items and remove a player from the game and let Summoner's Rift be a 4v4 than be a slave ward bot player with no endgame.
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JPlayah
(NA)
All items are tracked by a single quest. Switching items doesn't help. Or at least it didn't on the PBE.
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Manarager
(NA)
GinoSoldier
(NA)
If i can lane in midlane as Sona and win, i don't see why Brand, Zyra and Lux can't. Gonna be honest here, i really don't see it.
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Mr Sa1nt
(NA)
GinoSoldier
(NA)
Good thing Morgana is a primarily mage and not a support, and not a part of this discussion.
The removal of damage from spellthiefs was specifically intended to hurt mage "supports" who bring essentially nothing but damage and poor lane interaction.
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Linna Excel
(NA)
What *should* have happened is for immobile mages midlane to be given the tools they need to work against assassins, like a roaming AP item, and actual armor/AP items that aren't Zhonyas.
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Wayward Fish
(NA)
Can't. I tried it, selling and then re-buying any income item auto stacks it up to where you were when you sold it.
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Linna Excel
(NA)
Not a single one of these are supports and only abused the position because Riot doesn't like enchanters being relevant.
We're better off with them entirely gone from botlane.
People complain the shit out of a damage meta but when they get to pick a role supposed to bring in utility and defense, count on those same people to ignore all of that and pick MOAR DAMAGE.
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SpecterVonBaren
(NA)
A part of the issue is that actual supports, aka enchanters and wardens are so weak (by that i mean the champions specifically) you can just pick anything else and still manage better with the same restrictions.
The other part is that by making supps rely on item actives and specific effects to be relevant, ANYONE can buy those items and work. So of their champion kits are inherently stronger, they're automatically stronger in general.
The solution is to give supports equal income (or close enough) to the rest of the team, and make sure their KITS are strong supporting kits which can scale with normal tank/ap/ad items. Kits with built-in vision, decent healing, debuff protections, ally damage-reducing effects and the likes.
|
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Thingamajig
(EUW)
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T22:55:25.948+0000)
>
> because supports were too broken
> why pick lulu or janna when swain can 1 shot you?
Nani the fuck? Support isn't a champion class, it's a ROLE. When champions designed for a ROLE are too weak, aka support champions, it's normal for them to get replaced. Swain kind of works in the support ROLE for two reasons; One Swain himself is too strong, and Two, he can ignore basically everything that restricts supports AND their garbage itemization.
If actual supports were strong, or even just good, they'd be in their proper place and Swain would be mid where he belongs.
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OtakuBurrito
(NA)
> [{quoted}](name=OtakuBurrito,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-11-21T13:30:26.836+0000)
>
> I wouldn't even attempt to play Leona in this bull. This is beyond a disgrace. I guess they just want Support players permanently reported for gameplay sabatage by our ADCs because we can't poke, we can't ward, we don't have money outside of KS'ing, we have no Mana Regen, no health regen, no gold income, punished harder for peeling, and going afk is the only viable option when you want to play. You'd earn the same amount of gold.
>
> I'm not sure if Kleptomancy was gutted/removed or not but if it was there goes that option. And even if it was still in you have to strade off shield, heal utility, tank stats, and survivability to be able to buy items.
>
> Riot just needs to delete the support role at this point, let everyone solo lane since that's clearly what they want, and label summoners rift as a 4v4 map.
I dunno man. I played what... 5 matches yesterday? And i haven't noticed a difference in my overall income, AND felt like i helped win each match. I played Leona, Sona and... well... one Kalista support match because there was a Yasuo ADC and pulling a Yas' ass out of a suicidal dive is really fun.
It's noteworthy to say that i DO poach minions regularly, and i haven't really seen the penalty kick in, at least yesterday specifically.
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Thingamajig
(EUW)
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T14:10:21.492+0000)
>
> bruv
> the cc janna provides is not inflated by items
> tornado stun and ult stun are not item relient
> lulus polymorph and ult knockup aren't item relient
> i want these champions to be picked for their STRICT UTILITY the fact that in season 9 lulu and jana could 1v2 the lane was an extremely toxic environment
>
> im glad supports are nerfed as supports need to be played for their UTILITY
> if that would be their initiation/pick
> protection
> or buffing people up
> that should be the role of the support not pyke 1 shotting your ass or lulu not allowing you to reach the wave because you died once to her during a jungle gank
>
> in order to call someone stupid you must be smarter than them in the first place
I never even *saw* Janna or Lulu in S9. Everyone was picking mages early season, then pyke and hook supports. Enchanters haven't seen regular play since the Ardent Censer nerfs, because Riot nerfed that instead of the ADCs item costs like they should have.
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AidanWR
(NA)
> [{quoted}](name=AidanWR,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-11-21T02:02:26.495+0000)
>
> Provides more stats? I must have missed the mana regen on new spellthief's line, and CDR on all of them. Plus, they all give less health, relic line doesn't give health regen. Literally the only thing that is better is that Shard gives more AP, but that's 25 more ap, and Remnant of the Watcher did 18 bonus ap damage if a charge was consumed, so that's literally 7 more damage.
I agree with you but AP does not necessarily equal damage. That's a really poor comparison.
Also anyone who used to use Spellthief procs to increase burst AKA mage supports, gets shafted, so there's that.
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Ahri Baka
(EUNE)
With things that've been going about recently, i've thought up what i think would be needed to rebalance the entire game with better supports;
1-Gut healing from sources like Lifesteal, Spellvamp and reduce self sustain *healing* on most champions, turning that into shields or damage reducing abilities when strictly needed.
2-Buff Enchanter healing across the board to compensate. Look at other supports and see how they could be given ally-healing options. Let the support role become the main source of healing across the game, giving them a clear role in combat, and making them a clear target.
3-Ideally, if possible balance that healing so that GW is no longer necessary in the game.
4-Give *every* champion intended to be support a way to grant vision on the map in their *kit*, like Quinn, Kalista and Ashe do (and for that matter enable Ashe and Kalista to become actual, proper supports). Alter kits as needed. Some champions should be able to detect camouflaged and/or invisible champions, but not easily. Remove red trinket as these skills will serve to detect wards.
5-Remove anything that even loosely resembles a sightstone passive from items in the game. Remove all support items with actives, and transfer these actives onto whichever champion seems most appropriate at the time of this change. Let supports scale in power with their kits rather than which item actives they managed to buy.
For gold, there really *isn't* a good way to get supports the same potential gold as other players on a 4v4-designed map. So tie an income item to whoever landed the support role, and make it/them require more interaction than previous and current versions.
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Azurereaper
(EUW)
I agree that it gives a similar amount of gold as before, in the end. It's important to remember. But yes, absolutely YES does it make supports feel like absolute shit for having no significant income aside from takedowns afterwards. Not only that, but players will rage at any support swiping a wave for wasting gold whether or not they really are because nobody can see when the debuff begins, and supports who do get out of their way to catch a wave crashing on a tower might just find out that it was barely worth their time at all!
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blindasleep
(NA)
I'm gonna get a couple bros to try that out.
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Xalasmeni Banana
(EUNE)
Gotta wonder, if supports are supposed to take care of vision and everyone hates having a sightstone... why the hell don't supports have vision built into their kits like Ashe, Kalista and Quinn do?
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GinoSoldier
Nível 127 (NA)
Total de votos positivos