: > [{quoted}](name=GinoSoldier,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bj89vrEX,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-12-04T17:35:33.356+0000) > > Crit and Lifesteal are indeed toxic to the game in their present form. It's completely abnormal that ADCs lategame can outheal an enchanter's ability to sustain them. Why even have an enchanter at all? Might as well get a mage down here to burst the other ADC before he lifesteals himself up too. > > And then people whine about too much damage. Build lifesteal, crit, and a bit of AS and watch as your enemy's health bar is burst down to nothing while they can unleash their full combo on you and you'll still outsustain and kill them just by autoing them to death. Lifesteal and Crit need to be reworked so fucking bad it hurts.
My idea of a crit rework is to work it directly into certain champions' kits as a unique, situational modifier balanced *per champion* to promote better gameplay than crit fishing, easy example being Caitlyn's Headshots and Vayne's Silver Bolts. Buy crit to be more rewarded for skillful play and enable burst patterns. My idea of a lifesteal rework is basically to gut the fuck out of healing from essentially every source that isn't a support champion or Garen/Vlad, replace with shields/damage reduction methods where applicable, and make EVERY support champion able to heal and good at it. Like as an example, Braum shields up, whenever he blocks damage, it heals him and people close behind for X% with a phat bonus for the first hit. Lifesteal is gutted so that even a build focusing strictly on that only has like 6% LS. It has the added benefit of knocking mage parasites out of supp lane, and making supports actually needed/appreciated.
: There is actually 0 reason for the support items to nerf your income when finished If there's any reason its to guarantee Supports are poor compared to the other classes, if they want supports to actually be mini carries or to actually build items its a terrible change. And given the patch notes it seems intentional.
> [{quoted}](name=TwitchInMyPants,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=diYORY2c,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-12-04T19:29:37.670+0000) > > There is actually 0 reason for the support items to nerf your income when finished > > If there's any reason its to guarantee Supports are poor compared to the other classes, if they want supports to actually be mini carries or to actually build items its a terrible change. And given the patch notes it seems intentional. Or, you know, they could actually raise supp item price and efficiency to be on par with everyone else. Then they don't have to be poor!
: I have a theory that you probably don't build MR or Armor in any games. The truth is building just one situational Mr/armor item will help you so much. Although maybe an increase in survivability early game would be nice for tough laning phases ... Can you imagine how boring it would be if everyone was limited to kits that can only half health an enemy champ in team fights? It's like if an ap Malphite ults a squishyadc followed by a yasuo ulti=death.. it's well deserved. When a veigar traps you in his cage and has 900ap and hits you with Q and W and his ultimate you die. It is what happens. Burst damage isn't a problem. Being positioned bad and in a spot to receive tons of burst damage however is the problem. Meanwhile your team probably needs to take advantage of the fact that after everyone uses up their abilities, the other team is vulnerable while on cooldowns and try to get counterplay.
The difference is that presently if either Yasuo OR Malphite find a way to ult you, you're probably dead, and them comboing just deals obscene amounts of overkill damage. If a dedicated play from two champions could be just enough to guarantee the death of one unless that one really outperforms them, i call that actually fair and balanced.
: Better get rid of lifesteal and crit then, because of those 2 things ADC's needs to be bursted down in less than a second otherwise they will burst you down in 2 seconds with right clicks while healing allot of health.
Crit and Lifesteal are indeed toxic to the game in their present form. It's completely abnormal that ADCs lategame can outheal an enchanter's ability to sustain them. Why even have an enchanter at all? Might as well get a mage down here to burst the other ADC before he lifesteals himself up too. And then people whine about too much damage.
Pika310 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=GinoSoldier,realm=NA,application-id=EBBIvmVK,discussion-id=tMftHvQA,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-02T10:26:00.782+0000) >people still play her even now, and have been playing her since 4.13, and they've been winning enough to justify more nerfs. People also pick Skarner, Corki & Ivern. That doesn't make them playable, it just makes those players trolls & intentional gameplay saboteurs. As a matter-of-fact, Sona's pickrate itself is also [the 10th-lowest in the entire game](https://na.op.gg/champion/statistics) out of 146 characters. That literally means she is in the bottom 7%. That is NOT a "usable" kit, it's inherent indisputable proof that a revert is compulsory. Regardless of what haters like you claim.
Pickrate is an indication of popularity, not power. It IS true that Sona isn't popular, and part of the reason is that she delivers poorly on the musical support theme compared to what it could be, along with being a champion whose lore can be summarized as "mute keyboard big tiddies chick". I'm not happy with the state she's in either (even though we have *vastly* different opinions of what that should be), but truth is her present day winrate is still 51% on the same website you cited, implying that this "Troll" champion is still a very viable pick today. Maybe not in pro-play, fine. But what the fuck would we care for? We aren't pro-players. A full on revert would only make her even more boring as fuck to play than she is now (and would probably drop her playrate even more). I'd much rather they went for a third, new direction for Sona if they ever work on her at all. Oh, also; I'm not the one calling her a trash champ, why am i the hater here?
Pika310 (NA)
: Who said anything about "being the best?" I just want Sona to have a usable kit. Which she hasn't had since 4.13 was **forced** Live. Nothing less. Also I'd like Rito to start doing some accountability, but they've made it clear that's too mainstream for an "edgy" company like them. *cough* 2 lawsuits & a walk-out *cough cough*
You did the moment you mentioned the LCS. That said, Riot owes you or me *nothing*. 4.13 went live normally like every other patch ever, and Sona has a *factually* usable kit, because while not the best OP kit, people still play her even now, and have been playing her since 4.13, and they've been winning enough to justify more nerfs. If you're so unhappy about her kit you HAVE to post negative stuff everytime the champion is so much as mentioned on the forums, maybe it's time you left.
Pika310 (NA)
: I guess that's why C9 got thrown out of worlds for picking Sona. Why Sneaky got kicked from the team for playing her. Cause she is "powerful." Makes sense. {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
Pro play is detrimental to the health of the game. The less you hear about it the better, and hopefully it dies in a bonfire somewhere. It also doesn't represent Sona's viability in the game for normal people whose lives aren't 95% consumed by being the best at the game.
Pika310 (NA)
: If Sona were actually to be included, it would instantly just discredit the entire issue completely. She hasn't been relevant for over 5 years, since 4.13 was forced Live. The very few, very short instances where she has appeared since, were proven to be passing fads & she disappeared from the meta just as fast. Character is just unplayable.
Yes, yes we know. You hate the champ's rework. Meanwhile still one of the most powerful and influential champions in a full-on teamfight.
Kaluchii (EUW)
: ADC Cheat Sheet - Best Bot Synergy Comps
Sona appears literally nowhere. It's no surprise though, Sona's better at helping out teams rather than players. Does hint at her laning phase being too weak though.
: In hindsight I should added something like "to expand on what you said" lol
You shall forever be guilty of this. {{sticker:vlad-salute}}
: > It's just a pile of "how much bullshit can we randomly stack on this champion and oh wait and let's give her enough extra-healing on the side that she can out-perform a Soraka during lane-phase". I don't think she comes close to Soraka's healing in any way. Soraka's W is by far stronger and more accessible than Senna's Q (especially if you also max it first). Not to mention the healing she gets from her Q that she can conveniently transfer to her ally as well. Also, let's not forget about her R? I would, however, nerf her damage output and increase the cooldown of her passive when it comes to harvesting souls from the same target. Other than that, I personally don't find her that threatening.
The issue to me is that while Soraka sacrifices HP to heal a single target, then has to hit Q to get it back, Senna can hit *multiple* allies to heal including herself while also dealing non-negligible damage and resetting AA. A skilled Senna who can land Q's on multiple hits i feel can easily match a Soraka over the course of a game, and definitely outheal her in lane due to systematically healing herself as well as her ally. Sona has that feature, targeting multiple champions. And her heal is restricted to two targets, was nerfed to pathetic base values in lane, and costs an overwhelming amount of mana to boot. If the W cast does not block damage, it's literally wasted mana.
: Her free lifesteal only helps her as ADC. When playing Senna support I never get the life steal bonus cause I'm buying items like Umbral Glaive and Athene's, so I really see no point in her having lifesteal included in her kit. It'll only benefit her incredibly far into the game or if she builds crit items. I'd be perfectly fine with them gutting her lifesteal or removing it from her kit entirely cause she already has healing on Q.
And my comment was referring to her power ADC-wise. It's entirely true that removing the lifesteal component altogether wouldn't hurt support Senna at all.
: Hmmmm wow a post that is nothing for bs getting upvotes great. I love that your only reason for her being strong is basically winrate showing you clearly don't understand statistics. Her heal isn't good especially early game so idk why you think she has good sustain o I actually do know why you think that just you haven't even seen or played her and you're just looking at her abilities since you want to complain about something. Like I'm even going to go over more since most of it is you saying them should remove something for no reason other then you going reeee. Guess what her playrate is shit, she is statistically weaker compared to lot of adcs like 4% fucking playrate that isn't good. Having a 4% playrate means you're most likely in need of buffs. Please don't use statistics since you don't understand them, please stop saying champions are op because you want to rant about something, and please give real arguments to why champions are op.
Sona Rank 1 W for 30 to two people, with a shield that almost doubles that value if well timed... for 85 mana. Senna's is waaay more powerful.
: She does have tradeoffs, she has power and ok utility because when someone jumps on her she has zero response to that besides die unless flash is up and even then you might still die. Say what you mean which is you dislike the tradeoffs she makes lack of mobility and instant death if gap closed on in exchange for power and decent utility, this is why we can't have nice things because when a champion has clear weaknesses the community bitches about the strong aspects of her kit instead. I hope riot does not listen to your complaints as senna is in a decent spot and i would argue its other support items being weak sauce for tank champions thats causing this rather then senna herself.
You ignored all the points made in the OP. Draven, Jinx and Ashe have the exact same weakness as Senna, and yet Senna is the one who can heal herself and an ally while also dealing damage, and get free lisfesteal later in the game. She also has a root that is in essence better than Jinx's. Not saying Senna is a god, but it IS clear she has more strengths than weaknesses.
: Can dismissing all notifications actually dismiss them PERMANENTLY?
Ahahaha, i gifted something to someone not even in my friendlist anymore back over a year ago and i still get notifications everytime.
: and have a slot used that does almost nothing except give you wards
Sure, but you still only paid minimal gold for it. A lot less than old Sightstone for a lot more. I'm just as likely as you to sell it later in the game, believe me. But at least it's cost efficient while it's there.
: I was fortunate not to have an issue, but I feel for those who have. My name has no special significance in particular, but I've had it for a long time, so I'm kind of attached to it.
I don't get it either. The login name has zero value to me, so i really can't relate to this specific mob.
C9 Scott (NA)
: The year is 2025.
This is unbelievable. Support role would be removed long before the lane with half the LCS big plays champs in the game. Plus Riot hates vision and doesn't know what to do with champs who have a defensive role.
TobiaskJ (NA)
: So In other words, in late game, no matter how active you are as support, you get the same amount of gold as an AFK support sitting in base. (past the 15 min mark) wtf is this?
You get assist, kill and *some* minion poaching gold, ward kills, and objectives more than your afk opponent. Aside from that, yes, both are gated to 1k quest income
: See, I stull heavily disagree with your reasoning, or at least, definitely the second one. Yes, the text describes Lestara's voice as being the only sound she loves more than music... but, imagine how *high* a bar that must be? Sona, mute musician, Maven of the Strings... she probably *adores* the sound of music. I don't think that at all proves that she doesn't like people or thinks them as lesser, all that says is that she loves Lestara, probably more than anything. For that reaspn I think comparing her to Draven or Jhin is just, *wildly* innacurate. As for the first, you do bring up a good point, however... I still doubt Sona wanting to hurt others is her reason for joining. Back when it existed, the IoW, the League, the battles were all political, to prevent actual wars from breaking out, no? Way I see it, perhaps she did want to fight for her home, for Demacia, the same way that a soldier may fight not out of desire to bring harm to the enemy soldiers, but to fight, and protect his nation, his home. This is how I interpret Sona's reasoning
And now, we have to imagine poor Rioters trying to find some kind of middle grounds to our opinions (and probably a dozen others!). Poor guys. Maybe that's why they haven't done anything?
: See, I take strong issue with this mention of "Oh old lore has stated how she learned to use her magic offensively, she wants to hurt people, she has a hidden dark violent side, etc etc" and I seriously think that people are misinterpreting it. "In secret, she discovered a potent and deadly use for her etwahl, using its vibrations to  slice objects from a distance. She honed this discipline in private, mastering her gift, that she might be prepared should a fitting recital require the harmony of her talents." To me, this states of learning to master her power, so that should a need ever arise, the need to use her power to protect those she loves, then she can, and will, fight. I.e, she doesn't *want* to hurt people, but she will if it means she must to protect those she loves. People also point to her League judgment, where her Etwahl kills her adoptive mother. I see people talk about it like "she killed her mother" and oyher such things as if Sona were secretly violent or bloodthirsty, which sounds comoletely luducrous to me. The Etwahl escapes her without her notice, stalking after Lestara. Sona realizes with terror what it's doing: she tries to call it back, it doesn't listen. She screams out in a voice that doesn't exist. She can only watch as it cuts Lestara down. To me, this points to a fear that Sona has (or had, considering its old lore, but its not like we have anything new) that either she may harm those she loves with her power, that the Etwahl has some sort of autonomy, and that she is scared she cannot always control it, or that Sona accidentally killed her mother in a tragic accident when she didn't fully have control over the etwahl or her powers, and it's something that haunts her. In the end of it all, we aren't asking Sona's lore to be happy, sunshines rainbows and gpody-goody two-shoes do-no-wrong waifus. We just don't want them to turn her into a morally gray character that only shares her name. TL;DR I see some people claim Sona is secretly violent or bloodthorsty based on old lore. I think they're harshly misunderstanding it.
"A fitting recital" in this case could be literally anything. I don't disagree with you. It could be to protect those she loves and whatnot. But tell me why she chose to enter the League, back then. Her stated motive from the old Bio was that it was the only stage befitting her talents and abilities. I also agree with you that she certainly didn't want to see Lestara die. That much was clear, Sona loves Lestara. The text also says that it's the *only* voice she loves more than music. Therefore anyone and everyone else is beneath. These two reasons are why i see Sona as a straight up, near-Draven level diva who wants center-stage for her performance. If that means she has to heal someone, she will. If it means that she has to put herself in danger to help allies, she will. If that means she has to chop aforementioned Draven to pieces, she will. If it means she has to out-psycho Jhin, she will. That said, I don't want Sona to carry two dozen skeletons in her closet. She doesn't have to be a musical version of Elizabeth Bathory either. But morally grey simply means they aren't perfect and have some level of issues to deal with. It doesn't have to be world shattering, mind blowing, teeth grinding issues. It can just be; "She has spent most of her life isolated from people beyond a very select few, and has trouble interacting with people as equals beyond what she can offer with her musical talents, having relied too strongly on her instrument in her life. She has come to view her performances as far more important." It checks most of the squares, if basic, and still opens the door to interesting storytelling, especially if we throw her into mid-crisis Demacia where many people will look up to and need a powerful mage to guide them, and where people may investigate or even hunt her. It means she's likely to make mistakes or bad choices she can grow from as a character.
: Honestly, while Im not wanting "goodie two-shoes" (though admittedly I wouldn't complain) I don't want them to turn her morally gray, or anything like that. I want more champions that are undoubtedly good people
I'm just not sure Sona's the best vessel for that though. Especially since of the old enchanters, Taric, Soraka, Janna and Nami (and Yuumi) are all already confirmed undoubtedly good, and we have tidbits of old lore talking about Sona practicing hurting people just to be able to join the league. Although, I certainly agree that we could all do with less Kayn/Yasuo/Aphelios types and more Braum/Nunu/Tristana though.
: Honestly please no to the whole Darkin thing, I would absolutely hate that
Another possibility, (darkin-less, i promise!) would be, IF Sona is still adopted by Demacian House Buvelle, to have her welcome Lux and all the mages they can gather into Buvelle territory, where they try to live their lives as Demacians, but open with magic. Would put those characters into an interesting opposing position to both Sylas and J4's vengeance trip and be grounds for a move forward.
: ***
Oh heck, it's THAT guy! Yea i remember his name tag now. Too hostile for my tastes.
: Honestly please no to the whole Darkin thing, I would absolutely hate that
Still think it *could* be done right. Do i trust Riot to do it right? Not sure. Still my headcanon for now, knowing it's just that. The only thing *I* would absolutely hate would be for Sona to be made into little more than another goodie two shoes personality type to appeal to the waifu fans. To be fair it's entirely Riot's fault. Basically 10 years with the tiniest shred of lore to go by let fans have vividly different ideas of the champion.
: It's exceedingly frustrating how in both Demacia updates they didn't touch Sona at all. Besides her lore blurb, the most we have is some vague mention of a House Buvelle hunting larty in Quinn's backstory... and that's not really even related to Sona herself, so we're still left at nothing
: > [{quoted}](name=Chewy Candy,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=eeQKyOoE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-11-26T09:08:17.547+0000) > > Definitely. Sona is such an intriguing character from Demacia, a mute musician who has magical powers, brought from Ionia to Demacia because she was an orphan, a magical instrument that wouldn't leave her even if separated. Just how do we go so long without lore specifically for her? I mean holy hell there is just so much potential being threaded into other stories leaving her with the needle. I really do hope they have something planned for her in the near future because at this rate she just doesn't exist. You may be upset but that lore in contrast to the majority of other champion backgrounds seems REALLY boring. I certainly hope they have a complete lore overhaul for her because a mute musician who has magical powers, brought from Ionia to Demacia because she was an orphan (as if shes the only orphan in ionia kek) seems really.. just boring. The magical instrument that won't leave her side just feels tacked on to explain her kit. Best mute needs a lore update for sure.
I find extremely interesting that in her League Judgment, her instrument speaks to her, and acts of its own accord. It'd be amazing if Sona turned out to have a Darkin for a soundboard. So much lore potential there, and everything checks out.
Pika310 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MarcReady,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=eeQKyOoE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-11-26T11:19:25.071+0000) > > You should be glad you are still be able to play her at all. For when her lore will get update, it's probably because she'll get a gameplay update too, making Sona a different champion Considering Sona was gutted in patch 4.13 and has only gotten weaker & weaker since with nothing, but more & more nerfs making her **unplayable** trash for over 5 years... Turning Sona into a different champion would be an IMPROVEMENT. Matter of fact, Sona players have LITERALLY been demanding Rito do exactly that or just revert ~~Gutting~~ patch 4.13, but alas. Meddler has repeatedly stated he hates Sona & doesn't want her to be a character in this game.
If she's unplayable, why am i still winning so much then? Midlane and Support both.
iSennª (NA)
: You mean Senna :) joke aside, support item change really hurt Sona..she deserve some love tap.
Dunno, i'm still rocking with Sona, haven't felt the changes at all.
: There are a ton of "unhealthy" things in the game, but that doesn't mean they can or are going to remove all of them. As a toplaner, I like that conq no longer does true damage and that Klepto was removed.
Yeah, i get that Klepto caused gold income issues, but imma be honest as a Sona player, it did something no other keystone does for me. It was really, REALLY fucking *fun* to use. I'd rather they had removed the gold income, made the items just the three stat buff pots and some random fun stuff instead.
: I don't understand the hate for the support item changes?
My issue with this, and especially adding control wards is IF we hit late game, we're asked to peel Aatrox/Irelia/Riven from our carries with essentially one empty item slot, two gimp items and two actually decent tank items. Usually just ends with either you and your carry dead because you're too weak to matter, or you die and your carry runs away, again because you're too weak to defend yourself. Sure sometimes you'll win it, but it seems to me like a 2v1 should have better odds than that.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: >tanks **AND JUGGERNAUTS** if this isn't enough, I think the problem lies with you
I mean, who even reads comments before answering? Is this 2016?
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: damage creep while tanks and juggernauts have like 52-53% win rate now that conqueror is gone rammus ornn garen mundo I'm so done
FURRY V2 (EUNE)
: I am a single man. I see {{champion:350}} and buffing, I upvote.
: There's no support exclusive summoner that's somewhat detrimental to other users in the way smite can be, as far as opportunity cost. How would they pin items exclusively to support? By further restricting which champions can succeed in support or even other lanes by tagging items as champion exclusive? By receiving the "support" role? What if you swap with someone because you got autofilled? The problem is that Riot allowed supports to have a power fantasy (having gold and purchasing stats), and that power fantasy doesn't work. They need to be moved back to ward bots, have buffed base stats/damage (thus early agency that no other class has), and REMOVE the large majority of offensive stat scaling. In order for this to work, however, free damage from items such as Liandry's needs to be removed as well to prevent significant scaling on non-scaling champions (brand, zyra, etc). AP and AD were never supposed to be stats that were given freely to supports, and it has messed up the balance of every support, from enchanters to tanks, to even assassins and mages. ______________ People might not like it, but that's how supports are played in strategy games. You don't get massive utility (vision and other forms) without giving something up in return. If this happens, vision utility needs to be reduced from other roles, however. Look at a game like DotA. People don't mind playing support in that game. They have just as much agency as any other class, if not more at certain stages, but very often lack direct kill potential, or give something up in exchange for it. And you DON'T get gold as support. You get like 1/3 the gold of carries and spend the majority of it on wards. Riot needs to overhaul itemization in general and give each class of champions specific goals, and give items specific use cases instead of general stat buffs and universal damage increases. This game is going to die, at least to western audiences, and itemization is going to be the reason why, because Riot refuses to overhaul itemization and scaling as a whole. Go ahead and downvote me for saying it.
I'd rather just delete every support from the game, delete non-trinket wards, delete support items and remove a player from the game and let Summoner's Rift be a 4v4 than be a slave ward bot player with no endgame.
JPlayah (NA)
: Damn. Just when I thought Wayward Fish had it all figured out. Wait, does the income on one item track for all the support items, or does each one track it separately?
All items are tracked by a single quest. Switching items doesn't help. Or at least it didn't on the PBE.
: > [{quoted}](name=Smyrage,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wAQGmFOh,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T11:16:10.163+0000) > > "Never did as much damage as an ADC" > That's funny, because the whole income change only affected those mages, who could instagib the ADC with an all in. {{champion:143}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:63}} > > Gold income is more than enough to buy SUPPORT items, because Luden's is not a support item. :) However, none of the listed champions, save Veigar, should first buy ludens. Brand, Zyra, and Vel'Koz prefer Liandries, just because of how gold efficient the item is with their kit, and Lux abuses Athenes incredibly well. If you buy Ludens on a support budget, you're basically gutting any chance you have to get a lead in the game, because the item is a scaling item that you just don't have the AP to back up. Secondly, if you're an ADC and you get hit by all the abilities of any support, you should probably die. That was you mispositioning, and the enemy support capitalized on it. If you get punted back by an Alistar, what difference is that to getting full comboed by Brand? Either way you're dead, with no real recourse than pray that your support can save you, after you put yourself in a position to be engaged on. Brand, Zyra, and Lux specifically CAN'T go midlane anymore. So you're basically saying that "Oh, Zyra, Brand, and Lux, who already had bad winrates in the game, now get to have even worse winrates, because they're laning champions and we just gutted their lane" Not just that, it seriously hurt other champions too. Yuumi, for example. If your support picks yuumi- They're inting. The champion is basically dead right now because the spellthiefs line has been gutted.
If i can lane in midlane as Sona and win, i don't see why Brand, Zyra and Lux can't. Gonna be honest here, i really don't see it.
Mr Sa1nt (NA)
: Well I only had to play one game of support to notice that as an AP support, I felt just weaker in general. My ADC made 12k damage, enemy adc made 16k, but we were the winning team...and were quite ahead. Meanwhile as AP morg, I have only 8k damage. That's about 4k less than I'd have normally at the same point of the game....without being fed or having a lead. I felt like any lead I got on the enemy support, was extremely minor. It felt like if my ADC wouldn't hard shove the lane, I'd be punished and starved from gold(luckily my ADC was shoving, and I could auto the enemy tower). I was distinctly weaker in comparison to all members of the team...and weaker than any other Morgana game I've EVER played. Enemy support was even weaker than I was, by a lot. They lost their lane, and I didn't feel like it meant anything at all to my own gameplay. I could've been losing lane, and aside from less gold generation...I probably would've still had hardly any damage on the board. But my CC score was pretty high, way higher than everyone else's (although morgana has one of the highest CC kits in the game anyways). So I was landing my abilities, was ahead in gold, CC, everything... but making low impact damage wise. Doesn't seem at all balanced to me. That and I noted, that since I can't spend the small amount of gold to upgrade my AP support item...I didn't have a lot of mana regen. Which is fine, except that a lot of the efficient mana regen items cost more than the 450g I could spend on my first back. I would go OOM after using only a few abilities. What's even worse, is with that little scoop they added to the side lanes...enemies can now dodge abilities easier, they have more options for moving around potentially. My lane felt more passive, I felt like I had almost no gold, and that I was weak in damage. Didn't matter if I landed the majority of my binds.
Good thing Morgana is a primarily mage and not a support, and not a part of this discussion. The removal of damage from spellthiefs was specifically intended to hurt mage "supports" who bring essentially nothing but damage and poor lane interaction.
: Meddler has said numerous times that zyra's kit lends her to being a support. Riot has done balance changes for champs like lux, zyra, and brand because they showed up in bot lane. Finally these champs where forced there by high mobility mids and assassins. These champs need a lane to play in.
What *should* have happened is for immobile mages midlane to be given the tools they need to work against assassins, like a roaming AP item, and actual armor/AP items that aren't Zhonyas.
: Maybe we're doing it wrong. Maybe the idea is to buy a ward item until it completes the quest, then buy another ward item so you still have income and just live off pinks.
Can't. I tried it, selling and then re-buying any income item auto stacks it up to where you were when you sold it.
: Completed support items are rough on supports
Not a single one of these are supports and only abused the position because Riot doesn't like enchanters being relevant. We're better off with them entirely gone from botlane. People complain the shit out of a damage meta but when they get to pick a role supposed to bring in utility and defense, count on those same people to ignore all of that and pick MOAR DAMAGE.
: Why would they need a new way to earn gold when they're already killing the enemy ADC all the time? Oh I'm sorry, you said support not, "Support but really an assassin/mage".
A part of the issue is that actual supports, aka enchanters and wardens are so weak (by that i mean the champions specifically) you can just pick anything else and still manage better with the same restrictions. The other part is that by making supps rely on item actives and specific effects to be relevant, ANYONE can buy those items and work. So of their champion kits are inherently stronger, they're automatically stronger in general. The solution is to give supports equal income (or close enough) to the rest of the team, and make sure their KITS are strong supporting kits which can scale with normal tank/ap/ad items. Kits with built-in vision, decent healing, debuff protections, ally damage-reducing effects and the likes.
: > [{quoted}](name=GinoSoldier,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T17:46:21.885+0000) > > I never even *saw* Janna or Lulu in S9. Everyone was picking mages early season, then pyke and hook supports. Enchanters haven't seen regular play since the Ardent Censer nerfs, because Riot nerfed that instead of the ADCs item costs like they should have. because supports were too broken why pick lulu or janna when swain can 1 shot you?
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T22:55:25.948+0000) > > because supports were too broken > why pick lulu or janna when swain can 1 shot you? Nani the fuck? Support isn't a champion class, it's a ROLE. When champions designed for a ROLE are too weak, aka support champions, it's normal for them to get replaced. Swain kind of works in the support ROLE for two reasons; One Swain himself is too strong, and Two, he can ignore basically everything that restricts supports AND their garbage itemization. If actual supports were strong, or even just good, they'd be in their proper place and Swain would be mid where he belongs.
: > [{quoted}](name=Enderspider,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-11-21T13:08:05.578+0000) > > and the best part is. you played soraka, a ranged support that can use spellthieves edge. Melee supports have it even worse. they lost their health regen, have no base stats from their starter item and the gold generation is even less consistent than spellthieves, combined with the fact that you actually have to calculate in which minions you can and can't take if you don't want to lose out on a lot of gold, while spellthieves can just be proced every time it's up. might as well start doran's shield now as a tank support and hope for some kills. I wouldn't even attempt to play Leona in this bull. This is beyond a disgrace. I guess they just want Support players permanently reported for gameplay sabatage by our ADCs because we can't poke, we can't ward, we don't have money outside of KS'ing, we have no Mana Regen, no health regen, no gold income, punished harder for peeling, and going afk is the only viable option when you want to play. You'd earn the same amount of gold. I'm not sure if Kleptomancy was gutted/removed or not but if it was there goes that option. And even if it was still in you have to strade off shield, heal utility, tank stats, and survivability to be able to buy items. Riot just needs to delete the support role at this point, let everyone solo lane since that's clearly what they want, and label summoners rift as a 4v4 map.
> [{quoted}](name=OtakuBurrito,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-11-21T13:30:26.836+0000) > > I wouldn't even attempt to play Leona in this bull. This is beyond a disgrace. I guess they just want Support players permanently reported for gameplay sabatage by our ADCs because we can't poke, we can't ward, we don't have money outside of KS'ing, we have no Mana Regen, no health regen, no gold income, punished harder for peeling, and going afk is the only viable option when you want to play. You'd earn the same amount of gold. > > I'm not sure if Kleptomancy was gutted/removed or not but if it was there goes that option. And even if it was still in you have to strade off shield, heal utility, tank stats, and survivability to be able to buy items. > > Riot just needs to delete the support role at this point, let everyone solo lane since that's clearly what they want, and label summoners rift as a 4v4 map. I dunno man. I played what... 5 matches yesterday? And i haven't noticed a difference in my overall income, AND felt like i helped win each match. I played Leona, Sona and... well... one Kalista support match because there was a Yasuo ADC and pulling a Yas' ass out of a suicidal dive is really fun. It's noteworthy to say that i DO poach minions regularly, and i haven't really seen the penalty kick in, at least yesterday specifically.
: > [{quoted}](name=OtakuBurrito,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T12:08:20.654+0000) > > *not understanding that utility scales with items now that we we no longer get in a timely matter due to gold income nerf* > *thinking that doing damage is the only way to be relevant* > > > ... > > > *adds to blacklist to avoid getting in trouble for posting a video of sean connery calling someone a fucking idiot in relations to this* bruv the cc janna provides is not inflated by items tornado stun and ult stun are not item relient lulus polymorph and ult knockup aren't item relient i want these champions to be picked for their STRICT UTILITY the fact that in season 9 lulu and jana could 1v2 the lane was an extremely toxic environment im glad supports are nerfed as supports need to be played for their UTILITY if that would be their initiation/pick protection or buffing people up that should be the role of the support not pyke 1 shotting your ass or lulu not allowing you to reach the wave because you died once to her during a jungle gank in order to call someone stupid you must be smarter than them in the first place
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T14:10:21.492+0000) > > bruv > the cc janna provides is not inflated by items > tornado stun and ult stun are not item relient > lulus polymorph and ult knockup aren't item relient > i want these champions to be picked for their STRICT UTILITY the fact that in season 9 lulu and jana could 1v2 the lane was an extremely toxic environment > > im glad supports are nerfed as supports need to be played for their UTILITY > if that would be their initiation/pick > protection > or buffing people up > that should be the role of the support not pyke 1 shotting your ass or lulu not allowing you to reach the wave because you died once to her during a jungle gank > > in order to call someone stupid you must be smarter than them in the first place I never even *saw* Janna or Lulu in S9. Everyone was picking mages early season, then pyke and hook supports. Enchanters haven't seen regular play since the Ardent Censer nerfs, because Riot nerfed that instead of the ADCs item costs like they should have.
AidanWR (NA)
: Provides more stats? I must have missed the mana regen on new spellthief's line, and CDR on all of them. Plus, they all give less health, relic line doesn't give health regen. Literally the only thing that is better is that Shard gives more AP, but that's 25 more ap, and Remnant of the Watcher did 18 bonus ap damage if a charge was consumed, so that's literally 7 more damage.
> [{quoted}](name=AidanWR,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-11-21T02:02:26.495+0000) > > Provides more stats? I must have missed the mana regen on new spellthief's line, and CDR on all of them. Plus, they all give less health, relic line doesn't give health regen. Literally the only thing that is better is that Shard gives more AP, but that's 25 more ap, and Remnant of the Watcher did 18 bonus ap damage if a charge was consumed, so that's literally 7 more damage. I agree with you but AP does not necessarily equal damage. That's a really poor comparison. Also anyone who used to use Spellthief procs to increase burst AKA mage supports, gets shafted, so there's that.
Ahri Baka (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=GinoSoldier,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WPXTbcj2,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-20T11:08:12.062+0000) > > Supports haven't been stronger than any other lane, and they certainly haven't been "too strong", from the day supports became meta. > > League has this ridiculous stigma against utility/cc/tank/heal champs and for some reason think they shouldn't be allowed to play. > > If they even tried to implement the role properly, or even outright removed it, it'd be far better than the laughable system we have now where one single player consistently feels like a complete gimp vs his fed teammate with three times his gold. He mains adc , he is just throwing the fact that he is is broken to supports to be the broken ones.
With things that've been going about recently, i've thought up what i think would be needed to rebalance the entire game with better supports; 1-Gut healing from sources like Lifesteal, Spellvamp and reduce self sustain *healing* on most champions, turning that into shields or damage reducing abilities when strictly needed. 2-Buff Enchanter healing across the board to compensate. Look at other supports and see how they could be given ally-healing options. Let the support role become the main source of healing across the game, giving them a clear role in combat, and making them a clear target. 3-Ideally, if possible balance that healing so that GW is no longer necessary in the game. 4-Give *every* champion intended to be support a way to grant vision on the map in their *kit*, like Quinn, Kalista and Ashe do (and for that matter enable Ashe and Kalista to become actual, proper supports). Alter kits as needed. Some champions should be able to detect camouflaged and/or invisible champions, but not easily. Remove red trinket as these skills will serve to detect wards. 5-Remove anything that even loosely resembles a sightstone passive from items in the game. Remove all support items with actives, and transfer these actives onto whichever champion seems most appropriate at the time of this change. Let supports scale in power with their kits rather than which item actives they managed to buy. For gold, there really *isn't* a good way to get supports the same potential gold as other players on a 4v4-designed map. So tie an income item to whoever landed the support role, and make it/them require more interaction than previous and current versions.
: Yet at its core it makes the supports game feel like shit. Like passive supports are hit the hardest by these changes and these items forces passive supports to play aggressive which in turn gets either them or their lane partner killed.
I agree that it gives a similar amount of gold as before, in the end. It's important to remember. But yes, absolutely YES does it make supports feel like absolute shit for having no significant income aside from takedowns afterwards. Not only that, but players will rage at any support swiping a wave for wasting gold whether or not they really are because nobody can see when the debuff begins, and supports who do get out of their way to catch a wave crashing on a tower might just find out that it was barely worth their time at all!
: > [{quoted}](name=Xalasmeni Banana,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bq8aiiPy,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-20T22:55:41.075+0000) > > Yeah. > > Pretty sure people will try to buy double support items then sell and buy a normal item to remove the poaching limit Might even see a team go double jungle and just goon squad gank, at least then you get three champs full xp.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bq8aiiPy,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-20T22:34:43.500+0000) > > I really think there is a chance of that becoming a thing, double carry bot with the targon replacements so they can hard push through waves with the procs to get on towers while from outside of threat range and share farm then both sell and just use trinkets for vision after so you don't get penalized for farming. Just have one that spikes early-mid game with some utility and one that spikes a little later with hyper damage. Yeah. Pretty sure people will try to buy double support items then sell and buy a normal item to remove the poaching limit
Gotta wonder, if supports are supposed to take care of vision and everyone hates having a sightstone... why the hell don't supports have vision built into their kits like Ashe, Kalista and Quinn do?
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GinoSoldier

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