Crocele (NA)
: so what are the diana changes supposed to do?
Didn't they say they were gonna pull those changes because of feedback? Could've swore they did.
: where do people encounter this toxicity? I've been playing ARAM since about 2010 and even nowadays I rarely if ever meet any toxic people in my ARAM games
: Interesting. I tend to have different experiences. Besides the occasional outlier, most of the players in my games don't say much until someone makes mini micro mistakes that could have changed the course of a fight/objective/etc. "You didn't push your wave before the Dragon fight", "You engaged while x-player was clearing", "You should've backed when your laner died" types of deals. Like earlier I was Twitch with a Yuumi support and my Yuumi went batshit crazy in chat telling me I needed to pay attention to her Q circle and move with it; I ignored the very harsh tonality of her text, went with it, and it changed the entire course of the lane.
Yeah, I get those people too making the same types of complaints, with the only difference being the criticisms I see them throw out are so hilariously backwards. Like laners who have pressure on the enemy and shoving them under the tower, and yet still the enemy will roam first to contest neutral objectives while my laners get angry at me for wanting to/trying to skirmish while our team is the one with lane pressure. Just things like that that're like 'how are you so adamant about being wrong?'
: You're approaching true elo hell, that's why. Gold elo is the LEAST toxic elo. But high gold through mid plat is the MOST toxic elo. Bronze and Iron don't even compare to the shitstorm you face in midplat. I'm honestly surprised if I go an entire game without a single toxic player. The reason for this: Platinum elo players know what they're talking about. Bronzies and Silvers, you'll get some basic insults, but Platinums will completely dissect your gameplay and determine whether the game is winnable based on your performance. Burned summoners and still fed first blood before minions spawned? "GG". 0/2 at 5 minutes? "GG". Jungler tried to solo dragon, died, and the enemy got the dragon? "GG". Followed your teammate into a bad spot and gave away two kills instead of one? "GG". I honestly have not seen so many people flame, give up, or afk before 10 minutes in any elo that isn't Platinum lol.
I'm willing to believe everything about what you just said except for the 'Platinum elo players know what they're talking about' part. A lot of the toxic players I've been seeing lately will completely dissect my gameplay, but they'll be so mindbogglingly wrong when they do it that I legitimately wonder if they're even playing the same game as me or not. Just as an example, earlier today I had a game with a Thresh and Mundo who were both toxic as hell. The Thresh berated me all game long because I went to wolves after blue buff instead of coming bot to get into a level 1 fight in the river because he and the ADC took a bad path to lane after leashing. Meanwhile I'm a melee jungler who doesn't have a mobility skill yet and wouldn't even be able to get in range of the fight, and when I do come, albeit slowly because I really was hoping I wouldn't have to come save them, it just let the enemy jungler know I was gonna be delayed getting to red buff and they took my entire top jungle. Thresh then spent the entire game trying to argue that I was bad because kills (that we couldn't get because level 1 Thresh flay by itself is not enough CC to keep the enemy bot lane from just walking away) are more important than my camps and berating me for getting outjungled because the Lee Sin that was 2 levels ahead from stealing all my camps was stronger than me. Meanwhile, later in the game our top lane Mundo point charges into the enemy jungle to 1v2 the by-then fed Lee Sin and Sylas at their blue buff while I'm coming from bot river to gank mid lane and get our Akali a kill. After Mundo dies, he proceeds to be toxic as all fuck in chat, angrily criticizing me for 'being a pussy and leaving him instead of helping him in a 2v2', and the fact that I was coming from literally the opposite end of the map and at no point ever anywhere even near him leaves me to wonder A. what game he thinks he's playing, and B. how he can think he's good enough to be that toxic and blame the jungler when he's clearly not even watching the map. And a lot of my games are like this right now, where everyone's trying to blame each other, usually either the jungler or adc, but none of the people doing the criticizing have any idea what the fuck they're talking about. Then they'll ask me how I made it to gold and all I can do is stare in bewilderment and wonder if they're really that stupid as to be the textbook case of 'blame the jungler' or if they're legitimately trolling and trying to disguise it by acting stupid. Sorry, that was a bit of a rant but there's been so much of this shit lately and it hurts my brain. It's one thing to be criticized when I play poorly, it's another to be criticized by people playing poorly trying to shift all the blame onto me for their mistakes.
mack9112 (NA)
: I simply cannot agree with that
I mean, those're my experiences. They're not really something you can either agree or disagree with.
mack9112 (NA)
: If you think toxicity is bad then you did not play this game before role selection. It is way better than past seasons.
I've played since season 2. I know full well what the game was like before role selection, and while _usually_ the game nowadays is nowhere near as bad as it was back in those days, this past week in particular has been the literal worst I've ever seen in all the years I've played.
Comentários de Rioters
Zaghyr (NA)
: As with every other person who has commented so far, I also think these changes are terrible. **Simply put they completely miss the mark for the changes you were aiming for.** > In the meantime I’ve also been thinking about ways to add small improvements to Diana's kit to make her more enjoyable overall to play as and play against. Patch 7.14 had significant changes to Diana that brought her closer to being a very single-purpose AP assassin, while also gating her attack speed behind spellcasts. I want to try bringing her attack speed back to a more normal baseline and reducing her reliance on AP to succeed. Your changes do not follow this at all. To start, you said that you want to make her more enjoyable to play as and against with 'improvements'. The changes you made will actually make her even worse to play with for a few reasons. 1. **The loss of the AS steroid.** This is essential to Diana's play pattern and satisfaction because her base abilities early are not very strong and she needs to have DPS to succeed. The loss of AS makes her lose a window of power that was necessary to trade patterns, could lower her jungle clear health and speed, and when combined with the passive damage nerf it will maker her tower/split pushing power much, much weaker than it currently is unless you build enough attack speed to offset the nerf. Don't get me wrong, the buffed base AS and AS growth are wonderful changes, however these changes would only truly be felt when you are already building a lot of attack speed and would only maker her high AP bulid more clunky and less satisfying to play 2. **R reset time.** When combined with the lack of an AS steroid on her, this would make her even more clunky to play. You said you wanted to slightly increase her time to kill, that's fine, but this specific change comes with the downside that it makes her already weak and usually slow burst pattern early even worse. Diana is not going to one-shot someone early in most cases and will usually have to poke and then land a full combo with 2 R's in order to kill the target, and in clutch moments that 0.5 seconds could be the deciding factor in whether you die or they die and whether or not you can catch them before they escape. This is the exact same issue that arose when Pre-Rework Akali had her ult dash times messed with. This is also a slight nerf to her in-combat mobility, but the movement speed buff of her passive might heavily outweigh this change. 3. **E cooldown buff not hitting the mark.** This change doesn't necessarily go against the goals you set, they just don't hit the mark for what she needed. Don't get me wrong, this is one of the better changes you made, but this isn't what we needed. The primary issue with her E in terms of satisfaction and usability is how unreliable it is. As it stands this ability is only usable when the target is already close to you. The problems start when the target starts getting to the edge of the radius. This ability becomes really weird and frustrating when they reach the edge. Even if they are in range when the spell is casted, they will either walk of range during the cast time, or the ability will just not pull them at all even though they were clearly in range. While the cooldown change is nice because it would buff her sticking potential top-lane and massively increase her sticking power late-game, it doesn't fix the core issues with the ability. Besides the problems with its reliablity at the edge of the radius, it is also a nearly dead jungle spell until lv6 and is only used for the AS steroid increase, it is also nearly useless against ranged match-ups pre-6. You also said you are changing her AS so that she relies less on AP to succeed. This won't work because in order for her to succeed with less AP, her kit needs to be able to function with other builds that focus less on AP. Not to mention you nerfed the AP ratio on her passive, which would would make non AP builds weaker, and would require more AP to offset the nerf. The only viable builds that would work for her that involve less AP are on-hit DPS builds and bruiser builds. The DPS builds could work with the base AS buff, would be a bit weaker because of the passive damage nerf. The bruiser builds would be less effective than pure DPS, because while you do have higher mana, base AS, lower E cd, and the new MS buff, there is no proper AP bruiser itemization, her Shield is too reliant on high amounts of AP to be effective, she does not have good DPS without Nashor's, and she has no form of tank-busting innately to deal with other fighters and tanks. _**SUGGESTIONS**_ * **Lower her base AS (lower than 0.725, but much higher than 0.625. Keep her AS steroid after ability cast, but change its scaling to be less explosive and more manageable with the higher base AS.** In terms of satisfaction a mix of both changes would be ideal. Having a higher base AS would open up more viable builds and increase early game satisfaction and the AS steroid would still give her windows of power, but would have to be tuned so that her AS post change and pre change comes out roughly the same when using AS steroid. * **Don't nerf her early base Mana as hard, keep the Mana growth buff, keep the removal of passive Mana restore**. Overall these are nice changes actually. The reason I'm suggesting on making the base Mana nerf less harsh is because to try and keep some of the suggestions power-neutral, I will be suggesting lowering her Mana regen and/or Mana regen growth, and slightly uping some of her mana costs (by like 5, maybe 10 for her E or R, but not all abilities will get a mana cost change. * **Keep the passive Movement speed buff, or put the movement speed buff on her W.** I actually quite like this change, and honestly it could work on her W as well granted the MS increase is higher on her W because it would be utilized less often, especially if you are focusing on DPS. If the MS buff is good enough, then I would keep the AP ration nerf to offset its power a little. * **Keep her E cooldown buff, and make it more reliable to use when champions are closer to the edge by hitting the pull directly and/or messing with the cast time and channeling.** The buff is nice, and I would keep it, but the ability really only needs QOL changes to make it more reliable and satisfying. If the E is better to use and she gets MS on her passive, then naturally this ability should also get a slight nerf to it to compensate. Lowering the slow % would do the trick sich her sticking power is already more frequent and reliable from other changes. * **Remove the R reset Nerf.** There are other ways to increase her time to kill without making her clunky. * **Keep the fog-of-war change on her Q, it's actually kind of nice to have that option.** * **Increase her base AD.** IF AND ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO GO THROUGH WITH _YOUR_ ATTACK SPEED CHANGES, then please increase her base AD so it doesn't feel like she is hitting someone with a wet noodle. Would also help offset the AP nerf to her passive slightly and while may be hitting people is massive bursts of speed like she did, they are slightly faster on a base level and hit a little harder. * **Buff her base Shield, lower the shield's AP ratio, possibly add a bonus HP ratio or Mana ratio.** If you want her to succeed with less AP then her W ABSOLUTELY needs to be functional at less AP. Giving her a better base shield would already help her other builds and should be a nerf to her full AP build, and if you have to you could add the bonus HP or Mana ratios as other ways to the make the shield good without he need for a lot of AP. Naturally this change would come of a nerf to offset it, something like lower damage, slightly higher cooldown, or slightly higher mana cost, or a combination of them would do. * **Using R on a Moonlight marked target no longer removes all other Moonlight marks from other targets.** This is something a lot of Diana players want, while it would probably have to come with some kind of nerf, it would help her reliability and satisfaction a bit. * **Nerf her burst, but buff her DPS.** How you do this is up to you, but I think it is necessary for her health and balance based on the changes you presented. I have my own suggestion, but he only problem with mine is that is might require a VFX change, but hopefully it won't. The Suggestion is this: **_Enemies marked by Moonlight now take X(+Y% AP) bonus magic damage from Diana's basic attacks and Lunar Rush._** This change would be accompanied by a very slight nerf to her Q damage and a slightly higher nerf to her R damage, but would also work with your Passive damage nerf, and should NOT be done with by base AD buff suggestion. This would lower her burst a bit, but give her more dueling power and DPS in moments of power. Her ult would be less bursty overall except when reset with Q. I don't think this is a heavy Mechanic change at all, but the main issue with it is that you might have to add a VFX for when the damage is dealt. However, the VFX change wouldn't have to happen if you just don't make a VFX change at all, or preferably make Diana use her Crit animation when attacking enemies marked with Moonlight. Most of your changes, and some of mine, are either power shifts or buffs accompanied by compensation nerfs. Overall if the combined list is less power neutral then desired, then naturally you would have to make more nerfs to compensate assuming you can find the proper areas to nerf. Some of YOUR changes are nice in concept but they miss YOUR mark and would only hurt Diana in other ways that as you can tell do not make Diana players very happy.
As someone who's long wished to see Diana go in a bit more of a fighter-y direction, I would love it if they implemented changes like these.
AIQ (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gixia,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2fEFiQV6,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-05-10T05:36:17.737+0000) > > I had faith until last year. I hated every single rework they did last year. Combined with the way they butchered Shyv's lore a couple months ago, I no longer have any hope that a VGU wouldn't ruin Shyvana, which is why I refuse to vote for her. Irelias rework was great IMO visually, gameplay wise she was waaaaaayyyy over tuned, but now shes more in line. Swain was amazing, Nunu was top tier. Akali/Kayle were bust, both are horrific. Morg and EZ don't really count gamplay wise, but their visuals are great. So if Shyvana gets Nunu/Morg/Ez level visuals and Nunu/WW level ability updates you gonna see more happy Dragons than sad. If they Kayle Shyvana than yeah, pitch fork time. You didn't like Nunu? Really? I don't think I've had anyone ever say Nunus was bad.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2fEFiQV6,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-10T14:07:01.631+0000) > > Irelias rework was great IMO visually, gameplay wise she was waaaaaayyyy over tuned, but now shes more in line. Swain was amazing, Nunu was top tier. Akali/Kayle were bust, both are horrific. Morg and EZ don't really count gamplay wise, but their visuals are great. > > So if Shyvana gets Nunu/Morg/Ez level visuals and Nunu/WW level ability updates you gonna see more happy Dragons than sad. If they Kayle Shyvana than yeah, pitch fork time. > > You didn't like Nunu? Really? I don't think I've had anyone ever say Nunus was bad. Nunu was fine. He was the only rework last year that I liked, but I see him so rarely I forgot that even happened. I disliked Swain, Irelia, Aatrox and Ez though and outright HATED Akali, and that's just visuals alone, before we even talk about the dumpsterfire that was Irelia, Aatrox, and Akali's gameplay, all three of which were so bad they've all since needed to be reworked again to make them less degenerate. Meanwhile Kayle and Morgana were this year, not last, and they do not give me any hope that things have/will improve. Morgana was fine, but Kayle is my most hated rework yet by a wide, wide margin. It's frustrating because as recently as 2017 I loved almost every rework, but now it feels like I hate them all.
AIQ (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2fEFiQV6,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-05-09T20:26:13.034+0000) > > Shyvana is one of my most played jungles and I love her but I didn't vote for her. > > Since I feel like riot is going to try to make her a hybrid ap and ad champion and I play her On hit and that's the shyvana I love. Bro you must have faith. Think about the VU!!! The skins!!! THE HYPE!!!
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2fEFiQV6,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-05-09T20:29:37.746+0000) > > Bro you must have faith. Think about the VU!!! The skins!!! THE HYPE!!! I had faith until last year. I hated every single rework they did last year. Combined with the way they butchered Shyv's lore a couple months ago, I no longer have any hope that a VGU wouldn't ruin Shyvana, which is why I refuse to vote for her.
: It seems like the comment section is trying to take this the SJW route when that isnt the fucking issue, the issue is illegal wage discrimination based on gender lines which is completely illegal and trying to cover it up with the scummy ass arbitration agreenment that companies are beginning to phase out because it is really shitty. Forcing people into silence is awful when you do nothing to fix the issue internally.
> [{quoted}](name=Wonderloss,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5qzvVOJ5,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-05-02T03:39:07.322+0000) > > It seems like the comment section is trying to take this the SJW route when that isnt the fucking issue People take things the SJW route because they either like or benefit from the status quo and anything that would upset the status quo is a threat to their ability to act like a jackass without consequences, which they've convinced themselves is their god given right. Anything that empowers or benefits people who are not them needs to be dismissed or attacked lest it somehow diminish their own societal standing and cultural power.
: > [{quoted}](name=Colonel J,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=T2YlikvU,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-04-30T06:09:15.010+0000) > > Crazy how RIot refuses to let go of that serial farter.... How dare someone have a condition that causes excess gas and or stomach problems. Definitely fire him. EDIT : I had no other context, how am i supposed to know he is doing this on purpose. thanks for the downvotes for hoping the best instead of the worst.
> [{quoted}](name=Just the Lip,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=T2YlikvU,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2019-04-30T09:25:35.480+0000) > > How dare someone have a condition that causes excess gas and or stomach problems. > > Definitely fire him. There's a difference between letting out a fart in general, and specifically lining up your ass with someone's face before letting it rip. The problematic person in this situation is known for doing the latter.
Reav3 (NA)
: I want to take a minute to answer this from my perspective. First of all our intentions of doing less VGUs and more New Champs was actually based on caring for the playerbase as well as from player feedback we have gotten over the years as we have done New Champs and VGUs. Let me go into a bit more detail though. First when I said less VGUs I didnt mean we would stop doing them, I just meant we would slow down. Expect to still see plenty of VGUs in the future, just not as many as we have been doing last year. The reason why I feel that his is coming from a caring place is this. There are many players that share your perspective, that they want their main updated, and changed. But you have to understand there are also many other players that love their Champion, and find it very frustrating when they are updated even if many other players think the update makes them way better. We have to care about these players as well, and whenever we do VGUs we also cause a lot of disruption and frustration from players over their Champion being changed. New Champions generally don't cause this player pain. Last year we actually saw a lot higher player frustration over change, partly due to how many old Champions we were updating and changing, with many older players feeling alienated by the changes. At this point, after Morde, many of the Champions we would consider for a VGU have much higher players bases then the Champions we were doing VGUs on in the past. This isn't to say there isn't value in doing them, but if we were doing them at the rate we were doing them last year, on Champions with bigger player bases, then that is many more players that would feel frustrated or alienated by the changes, even if many other players like them. This isn't to say we want to stop doing them as we feel there is value in the game feeling modern and up to date, which means we value updating the things that are getting old and dated. The Champions on the list just aren't as dated as some of the ones we did over the last couple years, and as a result the value in updating them isn't as high, and also has a higher disruption and player pain cost since the Champions have bigger player bases.
So yesterday, upon reading your post, I saw the logic in it. "Yes, there was way too much change to older champions last year, and it kinda pushed me away. I can see why Riot would come to this decision." However, after thinking on it for several hours, I actually no longer agree with your statement. Last year there was too much change to old champions, but it wasn't because there were too many VGUs, it's because the same champions needed to be reworked _multiple_ times in under a year. Akali, Irelia, and Aatrox were all especially egregious examples of this. All 3 of these champions received VGUs that were _so_ broken that it became necessary to give all 3 of them mini-reworks that drastically changed their kits _again_ less than a year after they received their VGUs. Not only that, but Urgot also wound up needing a mini-rework as well once people finally clued in to his kit being degenerate as well (although it took longer in his case). The problem isn't that there were too many VGUs last year, the problem is that the VGUs we got _simply weren't very good._ Many of them had serious game breaking kits that would've been just as problematic even if they'd been new champions instead. So after thinking on it, I don't think that 'more new champions, less VGUs' is the right direction to go. Rather, I feel the solution is _better_ new champions/new VGUs.
: Yea * Mikael's crucible is in need of a rework. Overly ping reliant and can be made to better work for players of all skill levels * Ohmwrecker - tower disable hasn't proven to be a healthy mechanic and the item has nearly 0 users currently * Wit's end was this recently - if our 9.7 changes don't give it a more used niche it would fall in here Some opportunities that we would like to pursue with freed up space * More choice and options in lethality builds * An ap bruiser / ap melee item * All around cleanup of support items, get some more choice in there and dont force players into 5 actives in one build
On the subject of possible new design opportunities, do you think there's room in the game for a tanky attack speed item? Obviously I realize that's kind of what new Wit's End is, but it's limited to being anti-magic only. I know a little while back there was the possibility of us getting Zephyr back as an armor and mr item. Obviously, I know the reason we got this version of Wit's End instead of that version of Zephyr is because that version of Zephyr was busted as fuck, but do you think there's room to make something along the lines of that Zephyr we got previewed that could possibly be balanced? Or at least an armor or health equivalent to Wit's End, something that might be useable in scenarios outside of heavy magic damage on the opposing team?
: Riot - You are starting a bad trend with Camille.
It's the same problem Shyvana has. She's given blue skin in her base to convey that she's not fully human... so literally every single skin takes away that defining trait to make her look like a generic white girl. I'm not surprised to see them doing something similar with Camille.
Meddler (NA)
: We've iceboxed that experimental take on an on hit item that stacked both Armor and MR on the attacker. Biggest concern was how strong and safe an item it was for something that also let you counter whichever lane you had given its components. We're looking at other Wit's End changes instead as above.
Are you able to tell us what role Wit's End will fill once it's changed? While I understand that the Zephyr we saw before is broken as hell, I'm still hoping we might see something similar in the vein of a tanky AS item. As an AS Shyv player, that kind of thing is what dreams are made of.
Meddler (NA)
: Hasn't tested particularly well. Was popular but pretty degenerate, given it let a strong lane counter become an all purpose late game item without sufficient trade offs. Trying a different direction for Wit's End as a result.
Aww, that's disappointing, even if not at all surprising. As someone who still loves and prefers AS Shyvana over the annoyingly popular AP build, a tanky AS item would be wonderful.
: Final statement on Shyvana's bio (Still no response by Riot)
[So, somewhat good news.](https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/1105258312365297664) According to Scathlocke, they _might_ change Shyvana's bio, which means there's the chance it can still be fixed to restore her origin. Bad news is it wouldn't happen til May or June at the very earliest. It's not the concrete confirmation of 'yes, we will definitely fix this' that I want, but it's better than the reverse and gives me hope at least that Shyv's history might still be preserved. In the meantime, I'm certain some new outrage will come along, and people will move on from Shyv to whatever the new community outrage target of the day is (afterall, we'll probably have gotten Morde's rework by then), but still, to anyone who cares, don't forget about this. Whether you care about Shyvana's lore specifically, or trying to keep League's lore consistent in general, keep this moment in your minds, wait a couple months to see if possible changes arise, and get ready to get some pitchforks out if they don't. Don't settle for sub-par results. Demand better at every opportunity.
: Final statement on Shyvana's bio (Still no response by Riot)
Last update from Scathlocke was just before the weekend saying they were still looking into it. Seeing how I doubt they looked into it much over the weekend (seeing as that's most people's day off work), I'm hoping we'll hear some news this week, and I am absolutely prepared to fight them on it because her new lore is not just a travesty, but does nothing to add to or improve on her in any way, nor does it open up any new storytelling opportunities. Hell, I've got a mini-essay on all the reasons why they shouldn't push through with the new lore just waiting on word from Riot about what the hell caused this mess in the first place before I throw it at them. EDIT: I also don't think anyone else who actually cares should be willing to give up either. Riot HAS changed their mind in the past. Most recently with tweaking Kayle's armor (not enough, but still at least better than the initial reveal), and in regards to lore in particular there was that whole fiasco with Nautilus and Pyke which they only reneged on due to fan outcry. Never ever give in or let up on a poor decision, because that's how it becomes set in stone. Raising a fuss is not as fruitless as people want you to believe.
SSmotzer (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gixia,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=NN16QyIy,comment-id=00150000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-08T08:48:39.659+0000) > > Because she doesn't actually _have_ any blood from her human 'father'. Her powers come from her draconic heritage, from her draconic bloodline. She says 'by the blood of my father, I will end them' because she literally ends her foes through the power she gets from her father's blood. For obvious reasons, none of that applies to a human parent. ...Then how is she human? If her blood is 100% dragon then she isn't half human. Also, she says this line while human, not dragon. > No, specifically because the mage _doesn't_ want what's best for Shyvana. What's best for Shyvana would be _to return her to her rightful home and parents_. Hell, even if he couldn't do that, choosing to raise her in fucking _Demacia_, home of people who hate magic and people who are different, is not what's best for her. He's a thief who's literal only good quality is that he's not _so_ shitty that he'd sell a baby, but he's still a terrible, unlikeable person, which makes it harder for the reader to invest in him, and that in turn makes it harder for the reader to sympathize when he gets the death he deserves even though it's intended to be a tragedy. Meanwhile, Yvva's death _is_ a tragedy, but the narrative frames it as a triumphant victory. _That's bad writing._ It's a sheer overload of cognitive dissonance... not to mention that Scathlocke's comments on Twitter have implied that Yvva is still evil but that they just removed those details from the story which only serves to make the whole thing that much more of an incohesive clusterfuck of mixed messages. If you were making eggs and you cracked one open and a human child fell out, would you go put it back in the chicken coop to be raised by the chickens? Well we'll just have to wait for a more detailed story then huh? > Does he know how to breathe fire? How to control a dragon's innate powers? Of course he doesn't, he can't. That'd be like you as a human knowing how to control a tail. Knowing how to sneak past a dragon is not the same as knowing how to flex a muscle you don't have and never will. It's like a guy who's never even been in a car before teaching you how to drive. Annie can breath fire. Nasus can control his innate power. But we know exactly what muscles move the tail and where on the brain does the signals go to move the tail. It'd be more apt to say a mechanic, who has never actually driven a car, attempting to drive a car. He knows exactly what will cause what to happen, but just doesn't quite have the nuance of it all yet. > It's also worth noting that nowhere in the story does the human father ever raise her in the woods alone, nor does he train her in any way. So she's changed in that she was never raised alone, just has innate full control over her powers without ever needing to learn or master them, was never even an outcast really (it's mentioned that her turning into a dragon made living among people hard but that's literally the full extent of anything implying being outcast). Hell, even her personality and motivations are different, as seen by her first encounter with J4. Instead of rescuing him because she overcame her predatory instincts and knowing it was just the right thing to do, she does it because of lingering daddy issues. Hell, all previous lores made mention of her inherent savage nature that she has to fight against, but even that's gone now. She's literally not the same person she was before. Again, we just need to wait for a more detailed story. Also, she is a teenager, there may be a more primal urge she is dealing with than hunger, the hunt, or daddy issues. She can still be having her savage nature to deal with, but instead of eating Jarven, she wants to make the babies.
> [{quoted}](name=SSmotzer,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=NN16QyIy,comment-id=001500000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-08T09:04:44.908+0000) > > ...Then how is she human? If her blood is 100% dragon then she isn't half human. Also, she says this line while human, not dragon. In her first 3 lores, she was the child of a union between a dragon and a human, she had the blood of both but her power came from her dragon half. In the 4th lore, the one we had for the last 2 years, she's human because of magic. The human mage's tampering with her egg tained it and caused her to somehow become human. Frankly it's a pretty stupid explanation but whatever, her powers still came from her dragon-side. Now we're on her fifth lore and the answer to 'how is she human' is literally 'who the fuck knows'. The story no longer gives any explanation for it. She is just... because... but her powers _still_ come from her dragon side. At all times, in both human and dragon forms, her powers come from her draconic heritage. > If you were making eggs and you cracked one open and a human child fell out, would you go put it back in the chicken coop to be raised by the chickens? There's a difference between a chicken and a sentient magical creature. > Well we'll just have to wait for a more detailed story then huh? We already _had_ a detailed story. > Annie can breath fire. Nasus can control his innate power. Annie does not breathe fire. She has magical fire powers, but she doesn't breathe it. It's also implied that Annie does not have full control over her powers. Meanwhile Nasus's powers are the result of undergoing a special ritual which essentially turned him into a demi-god. The circumstances and scenarios are different. > But we know exactly what muscles move the tail and where on the brain does the signals go to move the tail. Yes, we know that from a scientific standpoint, but if I was to graft a tail onto you right now you would not know how to physically send those signals and flex those muscles, nor would you be capable of explaining to somebody how to do it.
SSmotzer (NA)
: > First off, between all of Shyv's many retcons, her draconic father has been the one and only constant beside her meeting J4. It's also referenced in her VO, so removing it from her story invalidates her voice lines, and while she is getting a VGU, that's likely a year or more away. _"By the blood of my father, I will end them."_ How exactly? Her father died. She wants to avenge her father. I don't see any invalidations here. Her human father in her new lore died just as hard as her dragon father in her old lore. > Second, a child caught between a parent who loves her unconditionally despite everyone else considering her an abomination and another parent who hates her for not being what she wanted has a lot more emotional resonance than being raised by a kidnapper who planned to sell her until he felt guilty, but somehow not guilty enough to return a stolen child to its mother. But isn't this story more compelling? Both the mage who raiser her and her biological mother want what they believe to the the best for Shyvana. Yvva in the old lore was an evil racist dragon. Yvva in the new lore is a mother who wants nothing else but to get her child back. Yvva went from pure evil, to a sympathetic character with relateable goals. Isn't that a good thing? > Third, being raised by a draconic parent gives her someone in-lore to teach her how to use her powers, as opposed to a human that wouldn't really understand how they work. A more noble and loving parent is also more suited to raising a child who would grow up into the type of person who'd see a rando injured in the woods like J4 and opting to rescue him, as opposed to someone raised by an opportunistic thief and living amongst humans who reject her, which would be more likely to result in a child growing up to say 'fuck it, not worth saving'. It simply makes more sense from a narrative perspective. Are you assuming the scholarly mage didn't know anything about dragons? You know, before he tracked one back to it's lair, used his magic to sneak into a volcano and steal an egg? > Our lives and circumstances shape who we as people become, and that goes for fictional characters as well. When you start changing their background, it necessitates changing who they are as people, otherwise you start getting breakdowns in logic and the story becomes less cohesive and consistent. It's one of the reasons why retcons of any kind tend to make for terrible writing. And what about Shyvana has changed? She is still an outcast raised alone in the woods by a single father trying to lay low and train his daughter to control a raging dragon within her.
> [{quoted}](name=SSmotzer,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=NN16QyIy,comment-id=0015000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-08T08:09:01.480+0000) > > _"By the blood of my father, I will end them."_ > > How exactly? Her father died. She wants to avenge her father. I don't see any invalidations here. Her human father in her new lore died just as hard as her dragon father in her old lore. Because she doesn't actually _have_ any blood from her human 'father'. Her powers come from her draconic heritage, from her draconic bloodline. She says 'by the blood of my father, I will end them' because she literally ends her foes through the power she gets from her father's blood. For obvious reasons, none of that applies to a human parent. > But isn't this story more compelling? Both the mage who raiser her and her biological mother want what they believe to the the best for Shyvana. Yvva in the old lore was an evil racist dragon. Yvva in the new lore is a mother who wants nothing else but to get her child back. Yvva went from pure evil, to a sympathetic character with relateable goals. Isn't that a good thing? No, specifically because the mage _doesn't_ want what's best for Shyvana. What's best for Shyvana would be _to return her to her rightful home and parents_. Hell, even if he couldn't do that, choosing to raise her in fucking _Demacia_, home of people who hate magic and people who are different, is not what's best for her. He's a thief who's literal only good quality is that he's not _so_ shitty that he'd sell a baby, but he's still a terrible, unlikeable person, which makes it harder for the reader to invest in him, and that in turn makes it harder for the reader to sympathize when he gets the death he deserves even though it's intended to be a tragedy. Meanwhile, Yvva's death _is_ a tragedy, but the narrative frames it as a triumphant victory. _That's bad writing._ It's a sheer overload of cognitive dissonance... not to mention that Scathlocke's comments on Twitter have implied that Yvva is still evil but that they just removed those details from the story which only serves to make the whole thing that much more of an incohesive clusterfuck of mixed messages. > Are you assuming the scholarly mage didn't know anything about dragons? You know, before he tracked one back to it's lair, used his magic to sneak into a volcano and steal an egg? Does he know how to breathe fire? How to control a dragon's innate powers? Of course he doesn't, he can't. That'd be like you as a human knowing how to control a tail. Knowing how to sneak past a dragon is not the same as knowing how to flex a muscle you don't have and never will. It's like a guy who's never even been in a car before teaching you how to drive. > And what about Shyvana has changed? She is still an outcast raised alone in the woods by a single father trying to lay low and train his daughter to control a raging dragon within her. It's also worth noting that nowhere in the story does the human father ever raise her in the woods alone, nor does he train her in any way. So she's changed in that she was never raised alone, just has innate full control over her powers without ever needing to learn or master them, was never even an outcast really (it's mentioned that her turning into a dragon made living among people hard but that's literally the full extent of anything implying being outcast). Hell, even her personality and motivations are different, as seen by her first encounter with J4. Instead of rescuing him because she overcame her predatory instincts and knowing it was just the right thing to do, she does it because of lingering daddy issues. Hell, all previous lores made mention of her inherent savage nature that she has to fight against, but even that's gone now. She's literally not the same person she was before.
SSmotzer (NA)
: I wouldn't exactly say "integral" if you could change one line in the old lore and change the rest of the story without any issue. What exactly was so crucial about her father being a dragon then? >For years, Shyvana and her father flew from place to place to escape Yvva's vengeance. As Shyvana grew, she struggled to control her tempestuous emotions and volatile power. Her father helped temper her dragon side, which unleashed a ruthless fury she had inherited from her mother. While in her humanoid form, Shyvana suffered numerous self-inflicted burns as she learned that life could be fragile and not everything could be set aflame without consequence. Occasionally, her dragonfyre activated the runic echo within her, an echo that was intrinsically linked to her mother. > >As Shyvana's power grew in strength, Yvva was able to sense her daughter's presence from afar. She found the child alone and taunted Shyvana with tales of her origin, revealing that her true father was a feeble human who had twisted her noble draconic lineage into a disgusting perversion. Her mother would undo what should never have been brought to life, and attacked. Young Shyvana defended herself, but suffered many wounds before her father arrived to save her. He fought with savage fury to give Shyvana time to escape, showing no mercy or restraint **to his former mate**. Ultimately, he succumbed to the heat of Yvva's dragonfyre and was slain. > >As Shyvana grieved, she fled in search of a strange land her father had told stories of - a place awash with petricite, stones of nullifying power that diminished any nearby magic. When she reached the outer territories of Demacia, she knew she had discovered what she sought. The land itself felt heavy and oppressive, making it difficult to wield her runic powers, and Shyvana found it easier to remain in human form. Here, she hoped she could mask her magic enough to hide from her mother. Take out "to his former mate" and you could easily put in the human mage into the role of her father without any complications.
A lot changes when you remove her father. First off, between all of Shyv's many retcons, her draconic father has been the one and only constant beside her meeting J4. It's also referenced in her VO, so removing it from her story invalidates her voice lines, and while she is getting a VGU, that's likely a year or more away. Second, a child caught between a parent who loves her unconditionally despite everyone else considering her an abomination and another parent who hates her for not being what she wanted has a lot more emotional resonance than being raised by a kidnapper who planned to sell her until he felt guilty, but somehow not guilty enough to return a stolen child to its mother. Third, being raised by a draconic parent gives her someone in-lore to teach her how to use her powers, as opposed to a human that wouldn't really understand how they work. A more noble and loving parent is also more suited to raising a child who would grow up into the type of person who'd see a rando injured in the woods like J4 and opting to rescue him, as opposed to someone raised by an opportunistic thief and living amongst humans who reject her, which would be more likely to result in a child growing up to say 'fuck it, not worth saving'. It simply makes more sense from a narrative perspective. Our lives and circumstances shape who we as people become, and that goes for fictional characters as well. When you start changing their background, it necessitates changing who they are as people, otherwise you start getting breakdowns in logic and the story becomes less cohesive and consistent. It's one of the reasons why retcons of any kind tend to make for terrible writing.
SSmotzer (NA)
: Whoa, I must have misread it then. I skimmed her old lore before reading the new lore and hardly saw anything new. But yeah, there is a single line that says it was her dragon father, not her human father that took Shyvana. The rest of the story could easily be either one of her fathers then, huh? Maybe that's what caused them to decided to change it to her human father, so they could make her dragon father a part of the game. Maybe they plan on giving each of the elemental dragons lore, and they plan on making the Elder Dragon Shyvana's father. Maybe the master text the writers have has said the Elder Dragon is Shyvana's father for years, and this is just to clear things up.
Judging from their comments on twitter, it doesn't look like this update was intended to be a lead in/set up to anything and was intended to just be some minor editing to clean it up, but because the bio we actually had and the one they had on file were completely different, what was intended as a small edit became a huge change instead. Judging by the new bio they put up, her father is meant to be so insignificant as to be completely unknown... which is dumb seeing how he was an integral part of her lore in all previous versions of it.
SSmotzer (NA)
: ***
The mage is currently nameless, so I have no idea what change you're talking about, but [the bio listed here](https://lol.gamepedia.com/Shyvana) has been her lore for the last 2 years.
SSmotzer (NA)
: ***
She wasn't taken by a mage before, in the previous version the mage tried to tamper with her egg but then was chased off. Also, this lore update didn't give him a name so I really don't know where you got that part from.
SSmotzer (NA)
: But this was a small edit. Before the update she was kidnapped by a nameless mage. Or are you talking about the update they did over two years ago?
She was never kidnapped by a nameless mage until this update. The update from two years ago has been her only lore/bio for the last, well, two years.
: And I have news for you, "Brony" "Gaymer" When you claim a bio that has no bestiality in it encourages bestiality, lack basic grammar skills, state your opinions as incontrovertible fact, and spend every post you make being insulting and belligerent to everyone who contradicts you (often without actual rebuttal), you're a troll.
: When you have the name "Brony Gaymer" and says shyvana lore was bestiality, than it hard not to consider you a troll. Especially when user who points out the contradiction of your statement you imply they are intellectual inferior(by proxy) when you can't even spell check "Embrace" or "You". "The retcon was an improvement" Did the Retcon suddenly revert? because it's still up which means for your comment to make sense by your arguments it should be "The retcon **IS** an improvement" unless you agree with me and HalfTangible.
: When I said "we lack the complete understanding of what's being set up here" by no means am I suggesting that a lore event or some such thing is being set up. I'm talking about the entire lore is being reinforced to form a cemented and cohesive canon. Not just in terms of having thorough lore but in terms of having a structured timeline/universe. Apparently every champion who'd been updated before 2018 are getting tweaks made to their biographies and that is exactly for streamlining the lore like I said already.
I'm gonna assume I'm just not explaining it well enough since you don't seem to understand me, so instead I'm just going to link this thread. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/NN16QyIy-shyvanas-new-bio-is-not-only-a-downgrade-of-a-decent-piece-of-lore-but-its-literally-a-mistake The version of Shyv's lore that received 'tweaks' to streamline it _never actually existed_ outside of Riot internal memos, which means that the changes aren't small changes to streamline it but are instead a drastic departure from her previous lore that makes everything _less_ cohesive as a result.
: I think its appropriate that people here are deeply confused by these unexpected developments to Shyv's lore. But I've seen people claim its _"change for sake of change"_ and I think these people are deeply ignorant. Reality is we all lack the complete understanding of what's being set up here, and what's being reconnected so that we can have a cemented and cohesive canon. And we know from other stories being enhanced (Lux & Jarvan, hell even Morde's upcoming lore will need similar changes) to make way for new developments, modifying things so that all the stories can mesh with lore that has and hasn't quite been released to players yet. I hope this community is reasonable enough to not back this thread. At least until we get a better comprehension on what's really happening/being set up.
I mean, we know what's really happening/being set up. For the past two years, Riot literally did not know what their own lore for Shyv was. The bio they had in their internal files for Shyv ever since Galio's rework was different from the bio they actually put up on their Universe website for players to see. Shyv's 'update' was meant to be a slight edit/expansion to their internal file, and they replaced her Universe bio with their internal bio without ever even realizing that her Universe bio and her internal one were different. So what was intended as a minor change is now a drastic change, and frankly, it's a change to something that's much, much weaker. This has nothing to do with setting up something in the future and everything to do with somebody fucking up spectacularly.
Eeyore (EUW)
: It also used to be that a Celestial Dragon was her father, and that he left while the mother was pregnant a la Star Lord. It also used to be that Shyvana's father was an vile creature man who knocked-up a human female, then tried to kill the abomination off-spring. So her father is hardly a consistent man.
The second one was never true. In Shyvana's first ever lore, her father was indeed a Celestial dragon who peaced out and was never around. However, throughout all of her many retcons, all versions of her lore since then have featured her father as a noble dragon who personally raised her despite the rest of dragonkind considering her an abomination.
: > [{quoted}](name=Gixia,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Em0fVJcn,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-03-06T15:14:47.803+0000) > > There isn't much to say that wasn't said already, but fuck it I need to add in my agreement anyways. This utterly butchers Shyvana's narrative and it's been a long time since I've been THIS pissed off at the lore. The thing about THIS lore piece in particular that upsets me so much is simply because it was such a sudden, drastic and seemingle unnecesay change. Other updated bios such as Lux and Jarvan's recently, though had changes, only added details or cut unnecesary ones. Bigger lores like Nautilus and Karma were also older and somewhat expected to have changes. Shyvanas on the other hand was, for some reason, grouped up as a "slight edit", yet is a complete overhaul of the character. Not only was I not expecting such a harsh change, but Riot still plays it off as a 'small change'
What's especially bad is that, not only is it labelled as a 'slight edit', but it's described as an edit that 'expands on the circumstances of her birth and her meeting with Jarvan' while doing _literally the exact opposite of that._ It doesn't expand on _anything_, all it does is strip details away. So many details in fact, that the circumstances of her birth go from being a known quantity (albeit a stupid one) to a nonsensical mystery, and likewise her meeting with Jarvan becomes less fleshed out, not more.
: 9.5: Lore Update
Shyvana's new bio does nothing the patch notes say it does. The main story beats may be the same, but the enormous amount of lost detail changes her lore on such a fundamental level that absolutely does not keep the main story intact. Entire character motivations and personalities are completely different. It doesn't expand on the circumstances of her birth, it does the exact opposite, stripping details away and making the circumstances of her birth completely unexplained. Likewise, it removes a lot of the information about her encounter with Jarvan and how it led her to joinign Demacia. It doesn't expand on _anything._
: Why was Shyvana changed? Can we get a real answer?
> And no this change can't be just "Pure editorial." Sure it can. It's called 'some editor somewhere got a bug up his ass and thought he could do better than an actual writer and proceeded to take a big shit all over previously established work to try and prove it'.
: Dragon Dad, You Will Be Missed
[Never forget.](https://www.deviantart.com/ptcrow/art/Shyvana-The-Half-Dragon-Tale-Page-1-6-555649409) Years old fan comic is still better Shyv lore than anything Riot has put out for her to date.
: This change to Shyvana's lore is a complete and utter disappointment, and here's why...
There isn't much to say that wasn't said already, but fuck it I need to add in my agreement anyways. This utterly butchers Shyvana's narrative and it's been a long time since I've been THIS pissed off at the lore.
: Why was Shyvana retconned?
I'm pretty sure Shyvana is the most retconned champ in the game at this point, and it's goddamned infuriating because, with the exception of like, maybe her third story, every retcon is always a change for the worse. This one is her worst yet. It's been a long, long time since I've felt the lore team was this terrible at their jobs, but goddamnit, this is trash writing.
Comentários de Rioters
333lom (EUNE)
: Here are my edits for Kayle's base visuals
It's amazing how many different fan-made reworks of Kayle's rework keep popping up that are always better than what Riot gave us.
nNagato (NA)
: Why I think Riot got it wrong with the update on Aether Wing Kayle (Not about it looks good or not)
To me, the biggest issue with AWK is her VO. The look of the skin changing is pretty par for the course as far as VGU updating old skins. Afterall, if you want to talk about skins not being anywhere close to what you paid for, Unmasked Kayle doesn't even _exist_ anymore. Same thing for Crimson Akali back when she got her VGU (which I'm still pissed off about. Not even a red chroma for base Akali to replace it Riot? Fuck you.) Aether Wing's VO though is such an enormously drastic departure from the original that it, way more than the appearance changes, are what completely change (and ruin) the skin for me.
Jaspers (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gixia,realm=NA,application-id=EBBIvmVK,discussion-id=44ncL44h,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-21T09:33:23.431+0000) > > Ghost Bride also feels kind of underwhelming now. Not bad, just kinda... meh. It doesn't really feel spectral enough. I have Ghost Bride and honestly feel this isn't up to how great it was before, mainly because of her sing size, before they were these 2 glorious chain grey wings, now they seem to be smaller than all the other skins wings. The back ones I mean. Maybe I'll get used to it. Or they can increase the size a little, just a little.
It kinda sounds like they nerfed the horrifying wailing noise she makes on her recall too.
Remus Wins (EUNE)
: Kayle All Skins Old VS New Comparison
New base Kayle is just... so, so unbelievably awful. I honestly can't even imagine what they could possibly do to fix it short of scrapping it and starting over. It's just terrible, from the armour design, to the way she loses armour as she evolves, to even the look of her face and hair. Everything about the new base is just terrible and I feel like it would take more than just the simple texture changes they promised to make it passable. On the plus side, _most_ of her skins do not suffer from this same problem. In fact, the biggest/only flaw with a lot of her skins is that all of them except for Judgment and Iron Inquisitor lose their helmets. Silver Kayle looks great, up until she loses the helm and then she just looks kinda generic. So much of the personality of that skin is wrapped up in how intimidating that helm is and the way it's the only skin that completely hides her face. If helmet was a toggle, then it could potentially compete for best skin, but as is it loses out to... Judgment Kayle looks absolutely phenomenal and is without a doubt her best skin now. Probably no surprise since it's also her most armoured skin and the only one that keeps a full on helmet throughout every phase of her evolution. So course it's one of the two skins that nobody can get anymore. Wonderful... Aether Wing Kayle is also a solid contender for the best, and no surprise it's another skin that actually becomes more armoured as time goes on instead of less... but it loses to Judgment because Aether Wing's new VO is kind of terrible. Completely changes the personality of the skin and has robotic processing that makes no sense because she's... not a robot. Also kind of annoying that she's one of the few skins that gains _more_ head protection as she evolves, and yet never gets the cool looking Samus Aran-esque helmet that only shows up during her recall. The hell is up with that? Moving on from _good_ skins, Transcended Kayle just looks like a dumpsterfire. I'm glad Riot will finally be giving me back a refund token in the patch so that I can use it to refund Transcended the second the rework goes live just out of protest for how terrible it is. I just hate everything about this skin and I hate when a skin I bought is changed into something completely different after the fact, regardless of the fact that Unmasked as a skin doesn't fit anymore with the new helmetless default Kayle. Back to good skins. Viridian, Battleborn, and Riot all look good, with each of them sharing the same flaw, which is simply that, once again they lose their helmets as they evolve. Seriously, this needs to be a toggle, it's ridiculous that it's not. Not much to say about Iron Inquisitor. Like Judgment, it's the only skin that keeps a helmet the entire time, but I'm just not a big fan of the way it looks. It's solid, but not my preferred thematic. Also looks like, of all her skins, it's the one that's gone through the least changes in the rework. Pretty much just a better modeled version of the old. Lastly is Pentakill, the least armoured skin but also the only one that that actually makes sense for. I actually kinda dig the way her hair changes as she evolves, and I find it funny that, though she's not armoured, she does become more _clothed_ as she evolves. Her evolution actually feels like a transformation from groupie/metal-fan to full on member of the band, which is pretty cool to me.
: just as I feared, they pretty much all lose majority of their armor as they level up so that they all look like they're in a skintight spandex suit, RIP kayle, never playing her again, same for this game
That's actually not really true. Virtually all of her skins tend to gain more ornate/better armoured shoulders but at the cost of losing the helmet. While losing the helmet is definitely a bad thing to me (seriously, can't it be a toggle at least?), none of them are anywhere near the level of her base where she loses the helmet AND a chunk of both her shoulderpads and breastplate.
Remus Wins (EUNE)
: Morgana Old VS New Comparison All Skins
I'm really disappointed that it feels like Blackthorn Morgana went from her best skin by a wide margin to quite possibly her worst. It was the only skin she had before that I felt managed to actually look good despite how jank her model was, whereas the new Blackthorn looks just... so... bland. Almost all the plant-yness feels like it's been stripped out of her and it looks so visually uninteresting. So that sucks. On the plus side, holy shit Victorious Morg looks _so_ good now. It was kind of underwhelming before as the banner wings looked fine in the splash art but kinda derpy in-game, but it's probably her new best skin now. New Blade Mistress looks cool but... somehow not as cool as it could have been? I don't know, it's hard to explain, something about it just feels... off. Ghost Bride also feels kind of underwhelming now. Not bad, just kinda... meh. It doesn't really feel spectral enough. All the rest of them all seem perfectly fine, nothing standing out as being either surprisingly fantastic or disappointingly lacking.
: RP update: Cost and refunds
Sweet, getting a refund token back just in time to use it on Unmasked Kayle when her rework drops.
nGio (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gixia,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WNWQXRJW,comment-id=000c000000000001,timestamp=2019-02-20T04:17:50.436+0000) > > Yes. Yes you should, and guess what? You can, for a grand total of 6$. > > https://comicstore.marvel.com/X-Men-Masterworks-Vol-1/digital-comic/25825?r=1 > > The first X-Men comic, just like the first automobiles, were _physical_ objects, limited by manufacturing costs and supply and demand. They're only worth making when there's enough people who want to purchase them, and when people do want them, shit like comics get re-released all the time. _Especially_ digitally, where things like manufacturing are not a concern. Limited means limited, regardless of whether or not they're digital. There was a clear stipulation to obtaining the skin, and that offer has expired. I'm sorry that people didn't have access to something that was offered to bedrock supporters of this game in it's infancy. I've missed out on a lot of limited and exclusive shit on several games that I enjoy, including this one, but that's the appeal of putting your money into a game that could go belly up before it becomes a multi-billion dollar sure bet. I went all-in on Marvel Heroes, and now that the servers are closed, I have nothing. I went in on League while buddies were playing HoN, and I have a couple of cool limited skins. I lost $2k on MH and won a skin that will look cool after almost a decade. You win some, you lose some when you gamble on digital content, but limited should stay limited.
Then re-release the skin with slightly different colours. Or make it a new skin entirely and leave Silver Kayle as just a chroma (because that's all it's ever been for the past 9 years). It's not complicated. There is zero reason to make such an extravagant new skin that nobody can obtain.
nGio (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Metallikaiser,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WNWQXRJW,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2019-02-20T01:42:37.112+0000) > > Apologies that I was 10 years old and didnt really have the choice. And I wasn't even born when the first issue of X-Men hit shelves. I wasn't around when the first automobiles rolled off the line. We should get those too? So every single thing in existence, collectible/limited or not that came out before the big guy's 10th birthday should just be made readily available because you said so? You weren't here supporting Riot with your wallet when it was an indie game at war with HoN. Thanks to the people who did fund this game, you get to enjoy it now that you're a big boy. "Limited to physical copies purchased" is limited, so that means that you don't get everything just by being upset and whining. The entitlement is unbelievable.
> And I wasn't even born when the first issue of X-Men hit shelves. We should get those too? Yes. Yes you should, and guess what? You can, for a grand total of 6$. https://comicstore.marvel.com/X-Men-Masterworks-Vol-1/digital-comic/25825?r=1 The first X-Men comic, just like the first automobiles, were _physical_ objects, limited by manufacturing costs and supply and demand. They're only worth making when there's enough people who want to purchase them, and when people do want them, shit like comics get re-released all the time. _Especially_ digitally, where things like manufacturing are not a concern.
Malungo (NA)
: What makes you think you're entitled to something given out out to players who were there from the very beginning, because it looks cool? Not how this type of exclusive works friend, sorry but that would be a huge dick move to the people who have Silver Kalye. I have Judgement Kayle and I wouldn't be so happy if they re-released a skin I got because I've been playing LoL for so long.
Then Silver Kayle should just be a chroma. Nobody buys a limited skin thinking the skin is going to get better later, and there's no reason for people who didn't get it to think it would. If Riot doesn't want to make an old limited skin available to new players, then they should just leave the skin the way it is instead of spending all the time and effort of upgrading it for the benefit of like, 5 people.
: Sorry, but i really hope they dont bring back Silver Kayle or pull some shit like Championship Riven etc. Silver Kayle is the same as Black Alistar or Young Ryze. You got it, or you dont. They didnt rerelease Young Ryze or Black Alistar, so i doubt they will do it with Silver Kayle. But if they do, honestly, fuck Riot and give me a Black Alistar.
I'd rather see them bring all 3 back instead of bringing back none of them.
: If you can do it better, take the job of the guy whose job it is
I didn't make it. Artist's twitter is in the description.
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