: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T01:02:35.557+0000) > > The system indicates that I was reported 5 times over a period of 20 games. > It does not state that I was reported in 5 of the 20 games I played. > "Players have reported you 5 times in the past 20 games for negative or abusive behaviors in chat" is the exact wording. Well if you want to mince words, it was probably at least 2 games, as you're unlikely to be reported by everyone in a game unless you're actually toxic towards everybody. Most people, even those who let a few bad words slip, don't get that kind of a ratio of reports to games played.
When you receive a punishment, you're sent the chat logs from all games that you were reported in.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:51:48.946+0000) > > I agree that I wasn't in the right for taking a stance against how sivir was acting and that, just as in schools where bullying is an issue, the right answer isn't to stand up to your bullies, but rather to allow them to attack you and simply tell a teacher afterwards. > I understand the sentiment- but standing up for yourself should only go so far. If someone bullise you and then you punch them out, you're still going to get in trouble for punching someone. But if you "told the teacher" then they get in trouble and you don't. While people should stand up for what is right, that doesn't mean resorting to vigilantism. So I would be really careful about comparing this to bullying. It's not "tattling" or "snitching" if they legitimately did something wrong and you tell the proper authorities about it. I really don't understand why people are being cultured to believe they should solve all problems themselves rather than ask for and/or accept help from others. There is no shame in it. That said, I'm glad you realized your mistake, even if it was too late for this. The game gives you tools to avoid putting yourself in bad situations, it's nobody's fault but the player's if they don't use those tools and take things into their own hands instead.
I agree with you on the culture side of it. Though generally I believe it's okay to react to hostility with hostility, and then to press on with further action (such as in cases of self defense) I know that league of legends is a game and not life, but I think it's regrettable that they would take out the human element of reaction to stressors. I don't think it's okay to see someone being mean and use it as an excuse to rip them apart, which I feel like the chat logs show was not my intention. I wasn't trying to shred this sivir's life apart, that's why I didn't call her many of the hurtful names that came to mind, but instead point out that she was acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum over a video game. And in my mind, that's not toxic at all. I can't see the other stance on it. Edit: I appreciate your feedback on this forum, but I'm heading to bed. Thank you for your input and for the discussion...if I ever get over myself and choose to make a new account, I think you helped me to understand what it is Riot wants to see in a summoner. From stranger-to-stranger I'd like to genuinely thank you for improving my future gaming adventures. accidentally. Edit Edit: accidentally replied twice with the same message so I deleted one of them lol
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:56:16.735+0000) > > I just wish Riot could give me one final opportunity to have my account back, but I know that's not possible. > If nothing else it would be of benefit to other players like me, who struggle with their morality in allowing people to hate on others, for Riot to implement a more contextual punishment system again, or to take more drastic measure to prevent people who I think are innocent from being punished. > > The "prevent send" feature I'm suggesting isn't something I'd genuinely like to see in the game, but if they truly do want to create a "safe place" for all summoners than I believe this would be the most conducive way to do it without resulting in bans that I honestly think aren't worthy of permabans. Sometimes we have to learn things the hard way. Fun Fact, I'm permabanned from the Final Fantasy XIV official forums. (not the game, just the forum). I've learned from the situation, and i'm even a good little boy on the FFXI forum bu t they still won't reverse the ban even years later. But this did have the result of me generally being a lot more careful in chat and dicussion environments. Also, to be clear: You didn't get permabanned specifically because of this incident. You got a permaban because you've received punishments before, and all punishments are cumulative. While I generally don't approve of permanent bans, it did take some effort on your part to get to this point (nothing personal.) so you have to realize that wasn't just one mistake that led to this.
I fully accept that I displayed a pattern of behavior and refused to learn from it before it was too late. I fully disagree with the pattern that they recognized as I believe I was having discussions in game and just as I'm capable of muting people, others are capable of muting me. If two people opt to launch into an argument then that's on both parties. I play at the best of my ability regardless and na.op.gg shows me as being in the top 11% of the playerbase. The behavior they recognized was not something I believe to be toxic, and that's where I messed up. Up until yesterday, I never though to ask for highlighted chat logs to show what exactly is toxic. I assumed it was based on key words and that riot simply didn't approve of me calling people "apes" or "monsters" or other, more hurtful words. I didn't realize the issue was me trying to tell people they're wrong for saying the things they said. I thought the issue was how I was saying it. And I was wrong. I also believe it's wrong that the system sees this and detects it as being worthy of even a 10-game chat restriction, honestly.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:38:22.890+0000) > > So the system punishes you based on word count? Length can be a factor because a little barb-trading and taunting the enemy team and stuff is considered within the bounds of acceptableness. But if a conflict develops and drags out, it's a pretty strong sign of toxic behavior from a pattern-analysis standpoint. (Also, the more time you spend typing is less time you spend playing and contributing to the game, so it's also a reasonable factor from that angle as well)
I understand you. This makes sense why the algorithm would take length into consideration. Though I do think the pattern based analysis has many flaws and that returning to a player-based, context-involved punishment system is the better option.
: You got to do what you got to do, until they change the system ofc. I disagree on the insult and mute. I can take one line of negativity but if it's an entire flame horizon you're asking to piss people off and not focus on the game. Majority of league players don't take criticism lightly and will not agree with being wrong over typing during summoner's rift so it's best to not say anything to strangers. Focus on your game.
You're right. You're not the one who was permabanned here and I applaud you for understanding the system.
Haunce (NA)
: Having someone tell me that I'm wrong and deserve to be punished, using the exact same methods I use when I play the game is painful. I am not deflecting, as you have seen in my other posts. I accept that Riot decided I was wrong. Morally, I don't believe that. "fester - (of a negative feeling or a problem) become worse or more intense, especially through long-term neglect or indifference." I chose this word for this definition.
Ironically enough, in a past game I was reported for, the system actually flagged a discussion over grammar.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:45:18.806+0000) > > It doesn't indicate a 25% report rate. > 20x9=180 opportunities to report. > 5/180=.028=2.8% report rate. Your math is flawed. The system indicates you were reported in 5 out of 20 games. That's a 25% report rate. for the purposes of what the bot is telling you, you were reported in 25% of games- it's not saying you were reported by 25% of players. You don't have to be reported by every player or even multiple players, to have done something toxic. And being reported by more than one player doesn't mean you did something worse than if only one person reported you. It's a binary were you reported or not. You're arguing over semantics and technicality. Contrary to popular belief, technically correct isn't the best kind of correct.
The system indicates that I was reported 5 times over a period of 20 games. It does not state that I was reported in 5 of the 20 games I played. "Players have reported you 5 times in the past 20 games for negative or abusive behaviors in chat" is the exact wording. I can eat 50 bagels in 10 meals. It doesn't mean I had 5 bagels every meal.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:17:11.630+0000) > > Additionally I would like to point out that if you said this as a response in game and I reported you for it, it would be considered festering a negative environment as you chose to post a differing comment from me vice moving on with your life. Why can't you accept responsibility for your error instead of deflect it? Also the word you're looking for is "fostering" not "festering," which has a different meaning entirely. Just an FYI.
Having someone tell me that I'm wrong and deserve to be punished, using the exact same methods I use when I play the game is painful. I am not deflecting, as you have seen in my other posts. I accept that Riot decided I was wrong. Morally, I don't believe that. "fester - (of a negative feeling or a problem) become worse or more intense, especially through long-term neglect or indifference." I chose this word for this definition.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:33:11.792+0000) > > The behavior I displayed in the games I was suspended for were remarkably similar to how this conversation is unfolding. If the discussion we're currently having is punishable in your mind, then I think we just differ immensely on what "toxic" behavior is. Perhaps we do, but I don't think it would be hard for anyone to agree that you at minimum displayed a negative attitude toward another player. Remember that another player having a bad attitude or being toxic does not give you a license to do the same to them. There is no "context" in which reacting to a toxic player with toxicity is okay. I'm genuinely sorry you made a mistake and got punished for it, but hopefully this is the point where a lesson is learned and you learn how to cope with bad or rude players in other games that you play.
I just wish Riot could give me one final opportunity to have my account back, but I know that's not possible. If nothing else it would be of benefit to other players like me, who struggle with their morality in allowing people to hate on others, for Riot to implement a more contextual punishment system again, or to take more drastic measure to prevent people who I think are innocent from being punished. The "prevent send" feature I'm suggesting isn't something I'd genuinely like to see in the game, but if they truly do want to create a "safe place" for all summoners than I believe this would be the most conducive way to do it without resulting in bans that I honestly think aren't worthy of permabans.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:37:24.163+0000) > > Allow me to paint a picture. > > You load into a game and you state "my dad is a lawyer" as a joke. > Sivir immediately begins venting about how trash yuumi is and how she hates all yuumi players and how they're the scum of the earth. > The sivir proceeds to do nothing but complain about how yuumi dies and dies again. > You take a moment to look up yuumi and discover that the yuumi player is in bronze 1 > > Now if you reread the chat log, I think it gives you some context to the situation I was in. In a bit of fairness, when yuumi came out nobody understood her for how different she is to any other champion; to this day i still sometimes see people banning her not wanting them on their team rather than not wanting the opposition to pick them. In spite of this she gets nerfed regularly because she's so good in pro play. That being said, the context of your situation doesn't really change anything. Were they behaving well? Not really. But like has been said before, the appropriate response is to mute them, and report them after the game. You didn't do that. Instead, you reacted aggressively, thus exposing yourself to possible punishment. If you value your $1500 account, you would have chosen your actions with a little more care.
I agree that I wasn't in the right for taking a stance against how sivir was acting and that, just as in schools where bullying is an issue, the right answer isn't to stand up to your bullies, but rather to allow them to attack you and simply tell a teacher afterwards. In hindsight, I wish I never reenabled the chat function. After receiving my 2 week ban and the warning that I would be perma-banned for my next offence, I tried to be extremely careful. I can do nothing now but wallow in regret for taking a stance in the heat of the moment after not learning that typing in this game gets you banned. Period.
: It's a mix of being toxic and word count. So just keep the flame short and sweet without using flagged words such as the n word.
I think deriving strategies to overcome the system is something to be frowned upon. I think having a system that actually works should be sought after. An insult and mute, in my opinion, is more toxic than taking the time to help someone understand how they're wrong and pointing out their own actual issues.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:10:01.529+0000) > > https://imgur.com/a/Xp9OERl that support ticket indicates you've been reported in 25% of your games. That's a pretty high rate. Not all reports have grounds, some people report just because they're mad, but that is a lot of reported games. It sounds to me like you have a pattern of getting upset in games. You really need to find a strategy for staying cool.
It doesn't indicate a 25% report rate. 20x9=180 opportunities to report. 5/180=.028=2.8% report rate.
: Sure you should. Because now your team has TWO people derailing the game instead of one. You don't need to "defend" people from idiots. Mute the idiots and do what you came here to do - play a goddamn video game.
See? And now you're using swear words which would definitely have flagged in the system, however I don't think you're being toxic or displaying negative behavior. If you had used this format in multiple games and got the right people upset you would be in the same situation as me.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:34:48.651+0000) > > Without context, I can see why you would think that. That's why I think it's trash that the chat logs we receive are only of the things we said and viewed in a vacuum. The point you're making is exactly what I'm upset about. Context rarely changes the outcome of reports. I've seen many people come on this forum and provide context with their actions, and it does get reviewed, but rarely is there a valid excuse for bad chat.
When league used the player-reviewed tribunal system I was never punished as players would see all of the context and understand where I was coming from.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:23:53.125+0000) > > I just genuinely don't see (and if you had context it would be of benefit to me) how I was being toxic in this game. I specifically tailored my messages to be not toxic. I didn't call the sivir player many of the names i would have in the past, but chose to call her a child. Well, if you were reported, it was probably under the "Negative attitude" heading, which wouldn't be far off. Again though, even if it seems like a minor incident, it apparently isn't your first one or you wouldn't have received a ban. This sort of thing would usually yield a chat restriction.
I fully agree that I had a negative attitude in this game. It was not my first one, and as I said I used to say hurtful things in situations like this. I improved. The system didn't recognize that I'm no longer toxic. Sivir reported me because obviously. The enemy team reported me because I typed in all chat and nobody likes when you do that and that was my bad but I wasn't toxic. I was negative. I don't think this game should have been the final straw.
: Yes, it's obviously toxic and you don't type them an essay about how trash they are. You just say "*insert name* is trash" and the system won't flag you. You exceeded the word count for toxicity and should have stopped typing at a certain point.
So the system punishes you based on word count?
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:22:10.106+0000) > > Yes that was a big mistake on my end. > > I alluded to it in the main post that I used to be toxic, however I was never punished when the tribunal system was utilized as it gave players context of the situation at hand. I used to say hurtful things to people who flamed myself and others. I don't diss people who play poorly, only those who make rude comments. > > I didn't call sivir bad. I pointed out that she was trolling, and she was. She was trolling a 35 minute game because someone chose a character she didn't like. Do you have any idea how many times I've been called "trolling" when I was playing my best? It is rude and an insult. And, calling out an actual troll isn't going to get them to stop. You're wasting your time calling people out. Just report them after the game if you're confident they did something wrong. Then they might get in trouble, and you definitely won't. BTW, picking an off meta champ or playing them in a position that isn't typical doesn't automatically make them trolling. Many champions have found success outside of the areas they were tailored to succeed in. Of course, it doesn't always work, but that doesn't mean they were intentionally trying to sabotage your game, which is what the definition of trolling is. You have to demonstrate intent to be a troll.
Allow me to paint a picture. You load into a game and you state "my dad is a lawyer" as a joke. Sivir immediately begins venting about how trash yuumi is and how she hates all yuumi players and how they're the scum of the earth. The sivir proceeds to do nothing but complain about how yuumi dies and dies again. You take a moment to look up yuumi and discover that the yuumi player is in bronze 1 Now if you reread the chat log, I think it gives you some context to the situation I was in.
: > Haunce: tbh sivir you're really annoying and getting reported Haunce: she's one of the strongest enhance supports in the game Haunce: this sivir is trolling [All]Haunce: pls report sivir trolling [All]Haunce: she's sitting out this game bc someone picked a character she doesn't like You're threatening someone with reports, accusing them of trolling, begging the enemy team for reports, and being a jerk instead of playing the game. You aren't playing in a vacuum. Aside from you and Sivir, there are **three other people on your team** who don't want to hear two people have a pissing contest.
Without context, I can see why you would think that. That's why I think it's trash that the chat logs we receive are only of the things we said and viewed in a vacuum. The point you're making is exactly what I'm upset about.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:19:10.613+0000) > > By posting a comment like this, you are displaying the exact same behavior that I did in the game that resulted in my ban. Not really. You aren't his team mate and he isn't berating you for your poor play. Because he's right, if you got a permaban off this, it's because you have multiple previous violations. It's not to insult you, it's simply a fact.
The behavior I displayed in the games I was suspended for were remarkably similar to how this conversation is unfolding. If the discussion we're currently having is punishable in your mind, then I think we just differ immensely on what "toxic" behavior is.
: I have absolutely nothing to do with the **multiple** punishments that you've earned for yourself, resulting in a permanent ban. You came here to ask for people to reply, and reply is what I did. Are you the most toxic person in the world? Nah. Are you consistently toxic enough that you lost your account because you'd rather flame your teammates than play a video game? Yup.
My point isn't that you also deserve to be punished. My point is that when someone says something like "i fucking hate yuumi players they're fucking garbage," then proceeds to troll because someone chose yuumi, that I shouldn't be punished for defending the player.
: Then feel free to report me by clicking that little report button. You seem to misunderstand something though. Disagreeing with someone is perfectly fine though. An in game example: You: "go drag" Me: "I think that is a bad idea" ^ perfectly fine. Not fine v You: "go drag" Me: "no that is stupid. Don't tell me what to do." I appreciate the image, but since I'm on my mobile and therefore shitty quality, I can't really look at it to see what Blitzbot says.
That's fair when you get home feel free to look at the image. The examples you provided in no way represent anything that I said in the chat log. I didn't insult anyone's game play (except regrettably yuumi but it was not intended that way. I was arguing on his behalf)\ When I stated that yuumi is bronze 1, it's because the sivir was flaming him. I used na.op.gg to look up the yuumi player and discovered that he was, in fact, bronze 1. I was not saying "yuumi is bronze 1" as an insult, but I was saying "yuumi is bronze 1" as a way to inform sivir that of course he's not going to make any impressive plays. Which is OKAY.
: > [{quoted}](name=Haunce,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hWZP9Qs2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-15T00:04:17.499+0000) > > I have been a dedicated player for over 10 years and have spent over $1515 enjoying this game. My attempts at defending myself and other players from toxic players has been deemed inappropriate and now I no longer get to play. I made no death threats. I made no hate comments. All I did was actively point out another player's childish behavior and because of that I don't get to play this game. Spending money doesn't shield you from poor behavior.
I just genuinely don't see (and if you had context it would be of benefit to me) how I was being toxic in this game. I specifically tailored my messages to be not toxic. I didn't call the sivir player many of the names i would have in the past, but chose to call her a child.
: " attempting to show her her flawed logic seemed like the most beneficial use of my time at that point. " Spoiler alert: It wasn't. If you think someone is being stupid or making no sense. That's fine. But you don't tell them that and try to tell them that they are or why they're stupid. you should have done exactly what you said you should have done- muted them and moved on. Telling people they're bad doesn't help them improve, and arguing with someone who may not have a sense of logic isn't going to change them. There are much better things you could do with your time.
Yes that was a big mistake on my end. I alluded to it in the main post that I used to be toxic, however I was never punished when the tribunal system was utilized as it gave players context of the situation at hand. I used to say hurtful things to people who flamed myself and others. I don't diss people who play poorly, only those who make rude comments. I didn't call sivir bad. I pointed out that she was trolling, and she was. She was trolling a 35 minute game because someone chose a character she didn't like.
: You are not more special than anyone else who plays this game. If you've reached permaban level, you're the problem whether you choose to accept that or not. I've played for 10 years and I don't want to deal with people like you who can't behave.
By posting a comment like this, you are displaying the exact same behavior that I did in the game that resulted in my ban.
: I have never heard of getting "highlighted" chat logs and the weird way it seems to be highlighted leaves me skeptical. As for you suggestion, pass. Games that use that system honestly just annoy me as it has a tendency to void valid responses too.
Additionally I would like to point out that if you said this as a response in game and I reported you for it, it would be considered festering a negative environment as you chose to post a differing comment from me vice moving on with your life.
: I have never heard of getting "highlighted" chat logs and the weird way it seems to be highlighted leaves me skeptical. As for you suggestion, pass. Games that use that system honestly just annoy me as it has a tendency to void valid responses too.
https://imgur.com/a/Xp9OERl
: I have never heard of getting "highlighted" chat logs and the weird way it seems to be highlighted leaves me skeptical. As for you suggestion, pass. Games that use that system honestly just annoy me as it has a tendency to void valid responses too.
I will upload a full page to pass off your skepticism. It is highlighted very awkwardly, and that is why I am shocked.
Haunce (NA)
: The automated ban system
I have been a dedicated player for over 10 years and have spent over $1515 enjoying this game. My attempts at defending myself and other players from toxic players has been deemed inappropriate and now I no longer get to play. I made no death threats. I made no hate comments. All I did was actively point out another player's childish behavior and because of that I don't get to play this game.
Haunce (NA)
: The automated ban system
Judging by the other topics in this forum, I would be shocked to believe that other thread creators would not have had the same thoughts about sivir as I did, however I made the fatal mistake of articulating them in game vice creating a forum about it after the match was over.
Comentários de Rioters
3xample (EUW)
: Why do I even bother with this game anymore
I got a 14 day ban for things I thought weren't a huge deal. I assure you that we don't get off scott free, and I am reformed and a good kid now. he will be punished, if it's any conciliation.
: 45 minute game. Enemy has a Sona.
Ay man, I just had a Vayne top and Vel'Koz adc, and then my mid lane left. lmaooo. {{champion:143}}

Haunce

Nível 97 (NA)
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