: Cleaver and Trinity have both remain unchanged for years. Why is this suddenly a problem? I remember building both items on old Irelia for 40% CDR so my Q max playstyle would be viable. I did it on Jax and Vi as well. Now all of a sudden high elo players are doing it, it's broken? Like what the fuck. This shit was around since season 5, even if only odd players like me did it.
It's because its not, this games playerbase look for anything to complain about but themselves because Riot's balance team has fucked up so hard it's trained them to.
: If you're an Archangel's user then there is just better stuff you can buy like {{item:3003}} + {{item:3027}} + {{item:3108}} for 6700 gold. Thats the same amount of CDR, 500 extra health, 100 less mana, 45 extra AP for 300 more gold. And you have to wait for AA to stack anyway so buying RoA isn't any worse. Even {{item:3003}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3108}} is 300 more health, 35 more AP, 600 less mana ( which doesnt matter since you never run out of mana with AA ), and a slow passive for 300 more gold. If you're a Ludens user like Lux or Xerath or something then I could see the argument to be made for going both. But even then those champions don't need defensive stats due to their huge range, and would just better benefit from magic penetration or deathcap components.
If you're an archangels user theres no reason to not want 150+ damage free on rotation with Ludens. You just buy tear then go ludens
: Seraph is bad on most mages(and those who use it well usually don't get Ludens), a better example would be {{item:3285}} +{{item:3102}} /{{item:3157}} +10% cdr rune. Or {{item:3030}} +{{item:3905}} +{{item:3102}} /{{item:3157}} /rune for Glacial users. 2 items max cdr isn't really something unique, although damage is a bit lower(transcendence instead of absolute focus is a bit of damage loss, same with getting a cdr item after {{item:3285}} instead of {{item:3916}} /{{item:3135}} /{{item:3089}} , and Glacial build overall has lower damage).
None of those share unique passives though, which is the parallel thats trying to be drawn here.
: There is a slash between the {{item:3285}} and{{item:3003}}. No reason to buy {{item:3285}} if you're buying already buying {{item:3003}}, we're mainly looking for CDR and you only get 10% from Ludens so might as well just buy the Fiendish Codex component at that point. Then you can spend the 2300 you saved on buying a Voidstaff, Deathcap, Liandries, Hourglass or Oblivion Orb. Also MB I assumed you meant the scaling CDR shard by 10% cdr rune.
No reason not to buy both really. The "Meta" not to is because of the same reason people dont buy trinity cleaver. >6400 gold is 2k max mana, a shield active, upfront damage, and 200 ap, with 40% cdr on the proper rune page. Is pretty insane.
: Why not just take sorcery primary / secondary? Then you can get capped CDR at level 10 with 4100 gold {{item:3285}} /{{item:3003}} +{{item:3108}} + Transcendence.
You don't need fiendish codex, both items give 20% but share a 10% unique passive, so you're getting 30 from items. Also, that's literally what I said, to take transcendence
: Yeah they could make it like the "haste" on Ludens, Arcangel's, and GLP
: Oh noes, 40% cdr for 6700 gold? Not like mages can also do that for less gold with {{item:3285}} {{item:3115}} (also suboptimal for anyone but azir, but so is sharing a unique passive.)
{{item:3285}} {{item:3040}} plus 10% cdr rune you take anyway is a literal parallel. People act like the 10% CDR is enough to not take both, but it really isn't. 6400 gold is 2k max mana, a shield active, upfront damage, and 200 ap, with 40% cdr on the proper rune page.
: > [{quoted}](name=3TWarrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5h3E90cM,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2020-02-24T05:38:10.307+0000) > > does he need more when he has the highest attack speed in the game even without investment in it and can do over 1000% AD damage with a single auto/ability? > > he also has 5 different abilities based upon what his current gun is and 4 different bonus effects for each of them > > the guy has 20 ability combinations and broken stats... He has access to only two at any given time and the other is an ult so he isn't using two ults in short succession. He literally has ONE regular ability for each gun and an ult. This isn't a Jayce or an Elise that press R and have insta access to 3 whole new abilities whenever they please.
Having a 1000% AD ult is 100% better for your team than a second rotation
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5h3E90cM,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2020-02-24T05:26:02.995+0000) > > nope still broken. Your blind acceptance of baby nerfs is why the game has power creeped so hard He's op, hence his abysmal winrate.
Ah yes, I forgot that all champions with low winrates must be balanced or weak guess champs like {{champion:92}} {{champion:82}} Clearly need buffs@!@!@!! Nope, no possible other factors involved with a champions winrate, yessir, only their kit strength and nothing else!
iiGazeii (NA)
: His base stats and stats per level are lower than other ADCs. It's like how Caitlyn has low base AS, but built-in bonus AS. It gates his scaling with items. Aphelios isn't broken anymore.
nope still broken. Your blind acceptance of baby nerfs is why the game has power creeped so hard
Kazekiba (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7c2KAZZ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2020-02-09T21:59:30.475+0000) > > Neither of those are directly linked to stacks. If it was directly linked to soul stacks or had range/time active/other ability augments to contrast Senna's range increase and 20% on hit, then I'd agree. Thresh E scales with amount of Souls, as does his W shield strength. Buying AP wont strengthen the shield, only Souls stacks... How do they not directly link to stacks? Thresh with 50 stacks hits harder on charged Autos and has a much larger shield on his Lantern than at 0 stacks.
Ah yes, i forgot the infamous Q range increase from soul stacks. oh wait
Comentários de Rioters
: She can if she's a support, in which case it's balanced out by her being on a support budget. Senna who last hits and thus gets her power from items will only get 1 soul from minions for every 15 that a support Senna gets. That's how she's designed: support Senna scales through stacks while ADC/solo lane Senna scales through items instead. Meanwhile Kindred will not only get more gold and thus more items than support Senna will, she also lacks inherent drawbacks such as greatly increased AA timer or reduced crit damage. I assure you, if she had uncapped range Senna would be last thing on anyone's mind as people would be too busy complaining about how broken Kindred is.
You seem to forget that AD senna also gets hers from fighting, same as support senna, she is not that far behind.
: I'm getting really tired of people saying "games are about 25-30 minutes so the pacing is fine".
: So wrong. 1) Kindred's range was nerfed because of how easy it was to acquire once you learned how to exploit camp respawn timers to guarantee fast stacking (A knowledgeable Kindred used to be able to have 7-10 stacks by 9 minutes into the game, allowing them to farm outscale teams before they could EVER counter it. In contrast: If Senna is adc, she's lucky to have 30 stacks by 20 minutes now. She doesn't gain higher range than a turret until 90 stacks..... which is pretty much only achievable as support now, and only in games which didn't close down until 30+ minutes. 2) Kindred has no drawbacks built in. Senna has 5. -Perma capped Crit damage -80% reduced Bonus Attack speed. -40% reduced attack animation reduction from Attack speed. -No AD Growth -Stop Animation auto attacks. Then there's the fact all her cooldowns are 11+ seconds (Q is 18, E 22)
-No AD Growth bruh senna can get like 100+ stacks easy
: My personal take on tanks
>We had {{champion:57}} with his ult draiining nearby damage but riot deleted it Actually, it instead gave allies in the circle *and* himself a 20% damage reduction from all sources, not just from enemies in the circle. It was beyond busted.
: well for laning, you back off when she has her soul passive on your character, try your best to dodge her q, bait her e or dodge it. Ping her ult if it's up so your team knows and hopefully dodges the middle at least. Senna can be easily poked out. Poke her when she goes for minion, but she will probably q you while she's taking cs so dodge or out poke her. Ask for ganks if anyone has cc to gank her. She's very squishy so can be bursted if you and your teammates can time it right. There might be champions that are stronger than others but there are always ways to counter it. Just gotta think well and play the game as a team since no one plays as an actual 5 man other than the pros or maybe 5 man queue
>well for laning, you back off when she has her soul passive on your character That would be an idea if i wasnt slowed for 40% when that happens. >Poke her when she goes for minion She outranges almost everyone but caitlyn, then outrages caitlyn
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7c2KAZZ,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2020-02-10T02:41:52.547+0000) > > Whos hitting you when you have 650+ range? Most spellcasters in the game, and most ADCs who position with their support to zone CS.
Ah yes, I forgot the extensive list of Spellcasters and ADC's botlane who have 650+ range
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=KnightsKemplar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7c2KAZZ,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2020-02-10T01:24:18.561+0000) > > The range increase is just... terrible design from the get-go. At bare minimum, that *has* to go. It makes so little sense. Range increase is needed to deal with her having little DPS and a self lockdown mid-late game on auto. Senna doesnt deal that much damage and is not safe at all. Without bumping her range up later, she just doesnt function as either a support or an ADC. Scaling stats are pretty much always "we dont want these online in lane, but we want these online later". Range is an issue in lane to punish, but less so as the game goes on.
Having double windup on auto is not self fucking lockdown. 20% AD bonus and free crit is not little DPS >Without bumping her range up later, she just doesnt function as either a support or an ADC. The problem is she already starts out with insane range with Q and Glacial Augment. Nobody can compete with her the entire laning phase
: 600 base range is 50 range shorter than Caitlyn - meaning she only outranges her at 60 souls. She matches Ashe’s range. Maybe start your posts with facts Also, you seem to mistake the that Riot doesn’t want her to not ADC. Correction: they don’t want to make her ADC too good, which was the case in Diamond+. She doesn’t get nearly as many souls from ADC as she does support. Also, support Senna wasn’t performing too hot, so uh, I really don’t think her kit is inherently the issue. What a bad, misguided post. Putting things in bold/listing her kit doesn’t make your points valid
Ah yes, the one 25 range error makes the entire post invalid. Don't acknowledge literally anything else I've said, just use that one point to shut someone down. >Also, support Senna wasn’t performing too hot, so uh, I really don’t think her kit is inherently the issue. Actually, support senna was performing fairly well, then nerfs and meta changes saw her *better* in AD.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7c2KAZZ,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2020-02-09T23:27:36.252+0000) > > Her range more than makes up for her 'wind up' thats no more time than it takes for any other ranged champions projectle to arrive. If someone tries to approach you, Q auto and now theres a 300 ms difference. Sure, Q, auto and oh look at that, senna is now down 50%+ of her HP because she thought she could stand up to being hit in lane. Turns out, when you know how to play, an enemy champion who self roots themselves for .25-.5s is basically a walking free skillshot eater. Hell, im a leona main. Senna trying to auto attack is just a free kill for me.
>senna is now down 50%+ of her HP because she thought she could stand up to being hit in lane Whos hitting you when you have 650+ range?
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7c2KAZZ,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2020-02-10T00:31:30.445+0000) > > Pretty much this entire post is wrong. The only thing you got technically right is that her autos don't slow, but she runs Glacial Augment 90% of the time, so there's not much difference. You get slowed when she autos you and she moves faster. > > Only hook/hard engage supports can deal with her shroud, enchanters are shit out of luck. Unless you're hard engaged on, it's a 'get out of jail free' button in lane. > > The only ADCs that can deal with her shroud are Kai'sa, Vayne, and Tristana. All three of them are in Senna's 10 highest win rate match ups. Even against these champions, the real benefit of the shroud is the movement speed, not the camoflauge. It lets her disengage from an all-in more effectively, and as long as she gets out alive, she wins; if you don't get a kill, best case scenario is Senna just heals over the damage before your mobility is back up, worst case scenario she runs you down, because you can neither get in range to attack her or escape her due to her range, Glacial Augment, and movement speed on hit. > > The problem is that it heals and damages, and the healing scales with the damage. She also likely has an enchanter of her own, so she's double dipping on the survivability while incidentally also damaging you. If you have an enchanter to mitigate it, you don't have hard engage, and the lane ends up being passive, in which case she out-scales you. > > What even is this statement? No ADC has instant CC. The only ADC with hard CC is Ashe, and it's definitely not instant. Jhin, Varus, and Xayah have roots, but they're all shut down by Shroud, and Senna out-ranges Jhin and Xayah enough that their roots are extremely unreliable. > > If you look at Diamond+, she's the absolute highest win rate ADC and has no losing match ups. If you look at Master+ or Challenger, her win rate approaches 60%, with her pick rate only being beaten by Miss Fortune and Aphelios. There's clearly something wrong here. Most enchanters can deal with her shroud... Rakan has Q and W, Soraka has Q and E, Lulu has Q, Karma has Q.... Most enchanters have skillshots. Ontop of that, enchanters are usually defensive; You arent looking to hit her a lot of the time. Her popping her defensive tool isnt going to stop you from using your own. Hell, most ADCs have target agnostic abilities as well. Her heal primarily scales off AP. ADC Senna doesnt build AP. Her heal doesnt do much. "No ADC has instant CC" Ashe, Varus, Xayah, Technically TF, but hes no longer played in the ADC role and hasnt for years, Tristana. Jhin and jinx dont have instant CC, but theirs is a lot faster than Senna's, and generally more reliable. Roots are CC. I can even add aphelios here, conditionally.
>Rakan has Q and W, Soraka has Q and E, Lulu has Q, Karma has Q.... Most enchanters have skillshots. Ontop of that, enchanters are usually defensive; You arent looking to hit her a lot of the time. Her popping her defensive tool isnt going to stop you from using your own. Hell, most ADCs have target agnostic abilities as well. Being able to hit someone in the shroud once is not dealing with their shroud. Plus its totally out of the realm of possibility that they used that and THEN she used shroud, you know, the reason she probably shrouded in the first place?
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7c2KAZZ,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2020-02-09T22:53:40.468+0000) > > Senna runs glacial augment, so yes, they do. > > No not really, especially when she has her own support to aid her. Her heal is on par with other enchanter supports except it has extremely good offensive capabilities. > > No, she doesn't need it. She has a free 20% ad already, not being able to kill tanks is not you failing as an AD, it means tanks succeeded at their fucking design. You don't get to right click everything in the game just because you built damage, what a massive sense of entitlement. Senna ADC runs AD, her heal is not even close to being on par with other enchanter supports. Not by a remote mile. Glacial augment is a rune, it is not senna slowing. It is also not going to prevent her from getting smacked 10 ways to sunday. Yes, she needs it. It is a physical requirement. You really dont understand how debilitating having a massive attack speed reduction base is, do you? There is a reason graves and jhin both also get MASSIVE bonuses to their auto attacks. Its a physical requirement.
>Senna ADC runs AD, her heal is not even close to being on par with other enchanter supports. Not by a remote mile. The heal scales off AD and she runs tear to non-stop spam it. GOOD THING SHES NOT BEING PLAYED AS A SUPPORT OTHERWISE THE LANE WOULD HAVE LESS HEALS RIGHT?
: She's supposed to be AD.
Clearly based on the fact that: >On release, they added a clause to her passive that let {{item:3850}} function for her >made an entire new support item after her {{item:3864}} >and keep nerfing her *specifically* so that she stop being so effective in AD that youre a fucking idiot
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7c2KAZZ,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2020-02-09T21:58:09.567+0000) > > I would agree with this, except her range, stealing movement speed, and free heals make it nearly impossible to capitalize on this weakness, so it's not really a weakness at all. It is really easy to capitalize on her weakness, given if she attempts to CS, she has to commit to it for a long time, making her easy to punish. If she wants to harass, she again has to commit to it, leaving her vulnerable to harass. Its the type of thing brand, zyra, leona, pyke, thresh, orianna and other supports can easily capitalize on to get far more out of the trade than she does as an ADC. If shes a support, its not as big a deal for her. She can still take a lot of harass, but shes also focusing on it and able to set herself up better than if she had to focus on CSing. She can also opt to not harass focus in a lane where she would just die, where as as an ADC, she has to use her autos, which will pretty much ensure she gets pushed out of lane.
Her range more than makes up for her 'wind up' thats no more time than it takes for any other ranged champions projectle to arrive. If someone tries to approach you, Q auto and now theres a 300 ms difference.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7c2KAZZ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2020-02-09T21:56:13.714+0000) > > No it really isn't massive, at all. It isn't a projectile and its an instant hit. When youre slowed for 35% and shes buffed by 15% it tends to make it incredibly easy to kite people. > > Gee I wonder how a lane that has an entire role dedicatd to targeted attacks could possibly make that a problem > > Her Q target is 600 range BASE, so either she hits you with it, or she targets your ally, her allies, her minions, or your minions. You should not be punished so hard for hiding behind minions to stop her from hitting her engage. > Taking either a hard engage champ or a spam harass champion into her are good ideas. Champions like Nautilus, Braum, Leona, can chain their CC to interrupt her damage. Champions like Lux and Vel'koz can out poke her forcing her Q to be used to heal, not trade (if you position right). > > Nobody in the fucking game has instant damage at that point. What an awfully disingenuous argument, because all th champions you listed out do the exact same fucking thing to every AD in the game > > You mean like most ADs? Except most AD's cant steal movement speed, heal themself, cloak themself, movement speed themself, and slow enemies. That's not a weakness if her strength covers it. > > Ah yes, the "only damage matters" argument. She doesn't get any free steroids or anything, like 20% AD or crit chance. It's almost like tanks SHOULD screw out damage dealers because *that is what they are designed to deal*, so she should just be able to kill *everything?* > > Glacial augment and movement speed stealing literally does exactly what you said she couldn't do. > > everything you listed so far is neither true nor unique to senna. Sennas autos do not slow. It only increases her MS. Her cloak is very easy to deal with. She loses unclickability if she attacks you or youre close to her. Most supports and ADCs have a way to get around her shroud. Her Qs damage isnt that high, as its split between damage and heal. Most enchanters can deal with her Q easily. Most ADCs have either instant CC or movement. Senna has neither. Also, again, she doesnt steal movespeed. Your argument against her %HP makes no sense. She gets it because its required for her to function, at all. If her autos didnt hit harder or do more damage to tanks, there would be no reason, at all, to ever pick her. Her autos are too slow, and its a MASSIVE drawback. Shes given %HP so the damage they added to her to make it worthwhile picking her didnt mean she just blew up squishies. Again, she doesnt steal movespeed.
>Sennas autos do not slow. It only increases her MS. Senna runs glacial augment, so yes, they do. >Her Qs damage isnt that high, as its split between damage and heal. Most enchanters can deal with her Q easily. No not really, especially when she has her own support to aid her. Her heal is on par with other enchanter supports except it has extremely good offensive capabilities. > She gets it because its required for her to function, at all. No, she doesn't need it. She has a free 20% ad already, not being able to kill tanks is not you failing as an AD, it means tanks succeeded at their fucking design. You don't get to right click everything in the game just because you built damage, what a massive sense of entitlement.
Pika Fox (NA)
: She falls flat as an ADC. She lacks DPS and objective power. Jhin gets around this by having good objective control and utility, but senna largely lacks this, given her ult cannot damage non champions, requires too much windup and leaves you without a DPS. Lacking DPS is a very big deal for ADCs, and her free bonus stats dont really get around her lack of DPS. Its why jhin loses hard late game; Tanky targets are too tanky to deal with and are all you have access to hit. Senna gets hit double here, given her damage is quite a bit lower than jhin's in exchange for her healing support and reliable hard CC (even if its on a delay). She also suffers from a lack of self peel (reliable CC doesnt help if it cannot save you from someone already ontop of you) where as jhin at least gets movement for a crit, which is solid peel for what it is (senna's autos are extremely slow, so you dont actually gain ground from the movespeed on auto where as jhin does). Ulting is also not an effective defensive tool for yourself, given its delay. All around, senna is just a worse ADC than jhin as a single selection. You can make her work in a teamcomp where you can use the extra utility from the slot, but you need to bring the lost DPS back somewhere. And even then, unless you make good use of the heals and shields, shes just a worse jhin.
The heals and shields literally just auto win trades. If Senna was as bad as you said, she wouldn't have a bigger winrate, pickrate, and banrate than jhin >She also suffers from a lack of self peel Ah yes I forgot that 35% slows and movement speed stealing and roots are completely useless. All of jhins self peel is also on a delay and needs crits, the gap is not as you say it is.
Kazekiba (NA)
: She only gets life steal from her passive if she buys crit. Thresh E ramp up damage and W shield strength both directly scale on his Souls count as does his R 100% AP ratio means he gets 0.75x souls -> 1 point of damage. For a champ that builds Tank that's huge. You want to see Thresh come back as cancer as Senna? Bring back Banner
>Thresh E ramp up damage and W shield strength both directly scale on his Souls count as does his R 100% AP ratio means he gets 0.75x souls -> 1 point of damage. Neither of those are directly linked to stacks. If it was directly linked to soul stacks or had range/time active/other ability augments to contrast Senna's range increase and 20% on hit, then I'd agree.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Knight SoIaire ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7c2KAZZ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2020-02-09T21:27:25.731+0000) > > The thing is that Senna will never be a support unless she becomes unviable overall > > she is a ranged nasus, stacking both damage and range... why would you pair that with another carry when you can pair it with a support > > and if you take into account the actual power ballance of botlane she makes even less sence as a support. > an average adc is weak early... an average support is quite good early... senna is extremally weak early to compensate for stacking, and even more extremally weak early if she doesnt take that 80hp that dorans blade gives > > which means that if you take senna support you invite enemy team to snowball on your extremally tiny hp bar... while as adc your support can actualy look dangerous enough to deter the enemies from abusing that... and you have 65 hp more at lvl 1 to boot which makes a visible difference > > > You cant make something synergize so well with a support and so bad with an adc and expect it to be played the way it loses As a support senna is strong early. As an ADC, senna is weak early. ADCs and Supports have two different roles in lane. Senna has decent harass but a hard time farming safely or all-inning, making her not that great as an ADC. Her harass, CC, and healing make her pretty good as an early support. Her scaling also doesnt do wonders for ADC; Its far more utility based than offensive based and doesnt help her DPS issue. For support senna, she gets a lot more value out of it because shes getting stats she otherwise would not have gotten, allowing her to transition into being a secondary damage dealer with some utility later on.
>As an ADC, senna is weak early. I would agree with this, except her range, stealing movement speed, and free heals make it nearly impossible to capitalize on this weakness, so it's not really a weakness at all.
: She has drawbacks which many ADC's do not. Keep in mind, she is close to Jhin in design too so her being able to deal a lot of burst-ish damage is expected to an extent. - Her biggest drawback is her AA delay. It is massive. One of the longest in the game. And arguably what makes it even worse is that it requires you to become "rooted" during it. This means she has almost 0 ability to kite enemies. - Her E does cloak her, so targeted attacks wont work, but she is always going to be in its center, and is still vulnerable to AOE and skill shots. - Her Q is targeted. So only if you are either in its range, or grouped behind something that is will it hit you. - She has 0 instant damage in her entire kit. Everything has a delay. If you time your cc, you can interrupt it all (except her w, which is slow moving, delay activated, and dodgable). She also cant out sustain with her kit in the early game without burning most of if not all of her mana. - Taking either a hard engage champ or a spam harass champion into her are good ideas. Champions like Nautilus, Braum, Leona, can chain their CC to interrupt her damage. Champions like Lux and Vel'koz can out poke her forcing her Q to be used to heal, not trade (if you position right). - Outside of flash, she cant evade enemies once they are on her. She can W or E, but it wont save her from a burst champion like an assassin. She was already hit hard with the soul collection. Now almost all of them will be from trading, especially if played ADC. Personally I believe this hit support Senna too hard unintentionally, but we will see in time. As for her %health damage... If she didn't have it. Picking anyone who builds health/tank into her means she is screwed since she has poor DPS with her almost non-existent Attack Speed benefits. Her range is alright. Having no mobility in the form of a displacement, makes her one of the few who cant escape or trade by getting quickly in and/or out of range. Sure it scales, but it wont ever get out of hand normally unless she gets to free hit enemy champions who play poorly positioning wise.
>Her biggest drawback is her AA delay. It is massive. One of the longest in the game. And arguably what makes it even worse is that it requires you to become "rooted" during it. This means she has almost 0 ability to kite enemies. No it really isn't massive, at all. It isn't a projectile and its an instant hit. When youre slowed for 35% and shes buffed by 15% it tends to make it incredibly easy to kite people. >Her E does cloak her, so targeted attacks wont work, but she is always going to be in its center, and is still vulnerable to AOE and skill shots. Gee I wonder how a lane that has an entire role dedicatd to targeted attacks could possibly make that a problem >Her Q is targeted. So only if you are either in its range, or grouped behind something that is will it hit you. Her Q target is 600 range BASE, so either she hits you with it, or she targets your ally, her allies, her minions, or your minions. You should not be punished so hard for hiding behind minions to stop her from hitting her engage. >She has 0 instant damage in her entire kit. Everything has a delay. If you time your cc, you can interrupt it all (except her w, which is slow moving, delay activated, and dodgable). She also cant out sustain with her kit in the early game without burning most of if not all of her mana. Taking either a hard engage champ or a spam harass champion into her are good ideas. Champions like Nautilus, Braum, Leona, can chain their CC to interrupt her damage. Champions like Lux and Vel'koz can out poke her forcing her Q to be used to heal, not trade (if you position right). Nobody in the fucking game has instant damage at that point. What an awfully disingenuous argument, because all th champions you listed out do the exact same fucking thing to every AD in the game >Outside of flash, she cant evade enemies once they are on her. She can W or E, but it wont save her from a burst champion like an assassin. You mean like most ADs? Except most AD's cant steal movement speed, heal themself, cloak themself, movement speed themself, and slow enemies. That's not a weakness if her strength covers it. >As for her %health damage... If she didn't have it. Picking anyone who builds health/tank into her means she is screwed since she has poor DPS with her almost non-existent Attack Speed benefits. Ah yes, the "only damage matters" argument. She doesn't get any free steroids or anything, like 20% AD or crit chance. It's almost like tanks SHOULD screw out damage dealers because *that is what they are designed to deal*, so she should just be able to kill *everything?* >Her range is alright. Having no mobility in the form of a displacement, makes her one of the few who cant escape or trade by getting quickly in and/or out of range. Sure it scales, but it wont ever get out of hand normally unless she gets to free hit enemy champions who play poorly positioning wise. Glacial augment and movement speed stealing literally does exactly what you said she couldn't do. everything you listed so far is neither true nor unique to senna.
Comentários de Rioters
: Not only that but its a MR item. There isnt a armor version of it. Even then, the passive on it sucks. 150% health regen. Without Spirit, its pretty pathetic on a champ with low health regen.
{{item:2051}} as some sort of armor item actually wouldnt be that bad of a top lane pick. In fact it would be standard on most of them
: Yeah I can see this. ADC/Sup and Jungle seem to be the most impactful with Top just being there.
I would argue its primarily mid and jungle. Both fill the same function but mids goal is to feed themself while jungles goal is to feed the lane.
: So if I'm playing Darius into kennen here's what happens. He uses his range and ranged abilities to poke me while I farm zoning me from gold. If your jungler comes to gank he uses his speed boost to just run away. His core items being Protobelt and Zhonyas are both significantly cheaper that triforce or black cleaver meaning he'll get his items spikes earlier. With his items built he can zone you from gold and exp better until he finally kills you. As Darius there's not much you can do against this. It's not so much that as a melee champ I don't feel like I have impact. It's more so if I get counterpicked with a teemo or kennen then I'm just removed from the game. My best option being build tank and peel for your adc.
The biggest problem in toplane is at the core of the game; Minion aggro, minion block, and ranged champion core stats compared to melee. Ranged champions get both sides of the coin; Strength without commitment and safety without risk. Minions and turrets need larger aggro range if the attacker is ranged. Ranged champions all need various core movespeeds drastically lower than any given melee. Your opponent as a melee should have the opportunity to take advantage of your poor positioning. This makes ranged players not guaranteed safety and consider when to attack and when not to. Im talking like a 50 movement speed difference here, at minimum. Minion block needs fixed as a whole or at least reduced in effectiveness for melee characters. And ranged champions need to be squishier. The difference between an ADC and a juggernaut isn't all that much outside of base health and armor, which isn't much more than 300-400g in stats. Accelerate that to 1000g.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=91mIIAwA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2020-02-02T19:11:04.442+0000) > > Garen is definitely not unusable bud. His tank steroid is insanely good and the damage he puts out with conq demands cc and kite (hey w grants cc reduction too) > > He's definitely not Op, maybe a little in the early game, but he is FAR from unusable lmao. > > Try playing him mid. Kite? Dude a half asleep 2/10 Ashe can kite and solo a 10/0 Garen all day. Kiting a Garen isn't even kiting.
Yes, ashe counters him pretty heavily. Everyone has some of those. Him playing mid means he can mitigate that counter tho, demolish his laner and roam.
IMelchorI (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=91mIIAwA,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2020-02-02T20:04:43.297+0000) > > That build has a 51.87% winrate, that's pretty good. item build winrates work different than champion winrates. they are always high because if you get these items together then you are already ahead. in the games that you lose you do not have the gold to buy these items together. what item winrtate does conqueror and phantom dancer and trinity force have? they have to be a lot higher than black cleaver and steraks gage because they are listed as garens highest winrate builds on every statistic site.
>https://lolalytics.com/lol/garen/ 51.18% winrate hes not bad. You have no idea what youre talking about
: nope, blue smite is very good, because it can take out spell shields and help gap close making your ganks more likely to work, unless u are a hard skirmisher blue smite is better
You know what closes gaps? CC and red buff. Most junglers have those already.
Sancre (EUW)
: On {{champion:141}} blue smite allows you to mark any target for ult on demand, just by using blue smite on them, I don't know if they have changed it, but last time I checked long ago, red smite doesn't mark the enemy for ult
IF thats what you really want, get red smite first for transform then swap to blue
IMelchorI (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=91mIIAwA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2020-02-02T19:11:04.442+0000) > > Garen is definitely not unusable bud. His tank steroid is insanely good and the damage he puts out with conq demands cc and kite (hey w grants cc reduction too) nothing compared to before the rework. his damage became more consistent compared to all enemy champions but lower because he does not have villains anymore. > He's definitely not Op, maybe a little in the early game, but he is FAR from unusable lmao. https://u.gg/lol/champions/garen/build he is worse than before the rework. he is even weak at the moment. you have adressed none of my concerns. the conqueror and attack speed addition were supposed to increase the number of item builds garen has available. but after the rework, conqueror + attack speed is the only way to play him because his old builds became so much weaker in comparison and riot nerfed garen around the attack speed build.
That build has a 51.87% winrate, that's pretty good. Also, you cannot just look at winrates from now and from months ago and just say its the rework. It's been an entire season's worth of changes. Villains was awful design because neither party could pick or play around who has it, while your ult did fuck all to anyone who didn't have it while obliterating anyone who did. >but after the rework, conqueror + attack speed is the only way to play him because his old builds became so much weaker in comparison and riot nerfed garen around the attack speed build. No he's definitely still playable in a more tanky fashion, it's just theres no reason NOT too with the recent attack speed changes. You could go {{item:3071}} {{item:3053}} but {{item:3078}} {{item:3046}} is literally the same thing except it feeds his new attack speed scalings, theres no reason to NOT go attack speed now. If anything, the item reworks and this rework hes in his strongest state than ever before (apart from fresh rework state). You have no idea what youre talking about.
Comentários de Rioters
: Removing villainy was a good thing, no matter what angle you look at it from. DO NOT bring it back, no matter what other direction you decide to take Garen. Automatically dying because he's in range (despite effectively having the HP and resists of a full tank), which is almost inevitable in many fights, just because you have a lead (or sometimes not even) is not a healthy design. This is part of the reason why %HP damage in general is bad for the game. It makes you powerful when you aren't ahead, and more powerful when the enemy is ahead. If the point is to devalue the impact of gold to mitigate power differences, it should be from a source that everyone has access to, not which champion you pick. Being the counter to 'winning' isn't healthy. At all. The only exception is cases of %HP damage where the damage on average relative to other abilities will be significantly lower than most abilities unless an enemy is stacking health, or in other words, the damage the ability deals would be %HP, not %HP bonus damage. You know, so its ONLY effective VS hp stacking, rather than also letting you burst squishies. But Riot doesn't want a balanced game.
its only max hp and current hp that follow that path. Missing HP is useless if you can't get them low enoughlmao
IMelchorI (EUW)
: Garen was served the riot special
Garen is definitely not unusable bud. His tank steroid is insanely good and the damage he puts out with conq demands cc and kite (hey w grants cc reduction too) He's definitely not Op, maybe a little in the early game, but he is FAR from unusable lmao. Try playing him mid.
Emo Twink (OCE)
: I feel like tenacity is way too good at shutting down champs who rely on one CC, and not good enough against multiple sources/CC stacking. Those with high dmg and take conq get tenacity from that tree, or steriks, and tend to go mercs most the time are extremely obnoxious for everyone, and getting chain CCed by shit like leona naut etc and gunned down is painful too.
tenacity is garbage because there are more tenacity immune CC's in the game than not, and with full tenacity you still can die before chains are over in fights. Trust me, as a jugg main Tenacity does fuck all most of the time, its the chain micro cc's and knockups that kill you. If youre playing a role that builds tenacity, someone who uses a single cc should not be keeping you at bay.
: LMAO Sett
Before we get into the nitty-gritty, just like to point out matchmaking is still fucked from the resets right now so statistics aren't entirely accurate. Otherwise {{champion:145}} wouldn't have a 45% wr.... {{champion:875}} only has that winrate in games that end at 20 minutes, which is exactly the sweetspot when Haymaker deletes people. After that it drops. While I do believe that Haymaker needs a damage nerf in return for a bigger E hitbox or Q movement speed duration, every champion has a spike in winrate for when they reach their peak. {{champion:875}} is a refreshing change from the overloaded shit they bring to the table these days. A few slight nerfs and hes a very healthy addition to the table. >Why does he have health regen based on missing health? To answer your question, because a mobility-less low range hook character who needs to get close to do anything is gonna get bullied in lane by literally anyone with any sort of range. This is to help aid that matchup, the health regen isn't even that much, {{item:1054}} is gonna heal more over the course of the game. All the things you have a problem with are what make Sett able to work, he has a conditional low range CC, no mobility, no damage reduction outside of Haymaker, and no AOE outside of Haymaker. If Haymaker didn't have a low CD he'd get annihilated in any scenario. If Q didn't have a low CD he'd literally just sit there doing nothing the whole time.
Warmas (EUW)
: Can we remove hidden MMR?
MMR is important to a properly functioning matchmaking. I will admit however, riot matchmaking is not properly functioning.
Ana Grubin (EUNE)
: Players who blame matchmaking
Matchmaking is a serious problem in nearly every modern competitive game because of laziness on behalf of both the developers and the players. But mostly the developers. The end result on matchmaking in modern games is just a flat value. They want a value of 100 on both teams for example, and it does not matter how they get there within reason. A typical team value would be 20 - 20 - 20 - 20 - 20 and that would make 5 players equalling 100. But in reality team structure is much more volatile. 5 - 15 - 35 - 40 - 5 and any mixture inbetween happens VERY frequently. Couple this with extreme game problems and volatile communities its no wonder game victories are pure RNG at this point
Yenn (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=RyzeRework,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WuzKbL9f,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2020-01-20T23:36:10.416+0000) > > Hmmm that would be true execpt hourglass is one of the strongest items and can counter ad assassins and spell sheilds counter ap assassins heavily. So 2 really good defensive options that make assassinations difficult Neither of these items are viable as a first item, and the only AP assassin countered by spell shield is Fizz. Most casters need a mana item as their first item. Hourglass doesn't provide enough AP to wave clear, so even if you do rush it, you'll end up with terrible CS because you're leaving the minions with a sliver of health, and it's usually unsafe to get into auto range of an assassin. And aside from that, even if you do counter the assassin **in lane**, the assassin will just roam and take advantage of your inability to follow; making your Hourglass rush relatively useless, because the champion you built it to counter isn't interacting with you, and as an added bonus, you're struggling to push the turret because you don't have enough AP or mana.
Hourglass however is usually built second or third, because the item is just flat out overpowered as an active. It makes champs who are ahead impossible to kill and champs who are behind more annoying to kill.
Ozuraios (NA)
: Ehh that would defeat his meaning. HE IS MEANT To BE A TANK KILLER. Everything about him is a tank killer. His Q empowers his autos to do max health damage. His ult does not do a lot of damage To the person ulting but does massive damage to the people around the landing zone if the person he ults has a lot of bonus health...Tanks. And the W is to get though tank armor and resistances. Lowering the True damage would just make him sub par at the one thing he is built to do.
1k+ true damage is not tank killing its everybody killing
: Does it even work? The few times i have built it, the active granted zero hp.
Thats because its based off your current hp, you need to activate it with full health, not low health
: Yeah, because it's so hard to build CDR on juggernauts... said no one ever. Congrats on making an item that will be abused the fuck out of it by literally everyone in the game.
>Yes, juggs will build the fuck out of this item. That's the idea. They will sacrifice CDR on an item slot (Which doesn't come easy on tank items) and actually be able to do their job. Anyone who makes this item too effective should be nerfed individually, not the item itself. Making a tank core is not ''''abusable by everyone in the game'''', juggs want 20% damage and wouldn't make amazing use out of this item unless they needed to tank more than they needed to do damage, in which case fucking let them.
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