Pale Mask (EUW)
: Sorry, but Jax doesn't win over any of those characters you've listed. He is an experienced fighter, and that's about it. To use your own examples, Cho'Gath is an unearthly horror of titanic proportions whose very presence would drive him mad, Syndra could ragdoll him around and snap his neck whenever she wanted, and Xerath could kill him with a pulse of magic from so far away he wouldn't even know what hit him. He's not human, no, but he's not a superman either. He doesn't have any extreme abilities to take on any of the real power players of Runeterra. He struggled a lot against an average Ascended warrior, and the beings you've listed surpass those in power. This is exactly why he's gathering _other skilled fighters_ to combat the Void beside him: because _he cannot do so alone_.
> [{quoted}](name=Pale Mask,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cYEiZa9g,comment-id=00020000000000020001,timestamp=2019-09-20T18:48:24.086+0000) > > Sorry, but Jax doesn't win over any of those characters you've listed. He is an experienced fighter, and that's about it. To use your own examples, Cho'Gath is an unearthly horror of titanic proportions whose very presence would drive him mad, Syndra could ragdoll him around and snap his neck whenever she wanted, and Xerath could kill him with a pulse of magic from so far away he wouldn't even know what hit him. > > He's not human, no, but he's not a superman either. He doesn't have any extreme abilities to take on any of the real power players of Runeterra. He struggled a lot against an average Ascended warrior, and the beings you've listed surpass those in power. This is exactly why he's gathering _other skilled fighters_ to combat the Void beside him: because _he cannot do so alone_. Yet neither of those characters would display any virtue of combat in doing those things. Neither of them would take any risk. Being badass is not merely the power one possesses. It's what you do with the power you possess in the presence of danger, some enemy etc. Even if jax was doomed to die to any of those characters, as long as he CHOSE to fight them for some reasonable person (and not mere stupidity or insanity), he would display more badassery in his courage alone, than any of them combined.
Falrein (EUW)
: I fundamentally disagree, which is why I said it was subjective. I consider Syndra and Xerath far more badass than Jax, for instance. Xerath started as a slave and worked his way through being the most powerful Ascended ever created. Syndra was locked down by the very land, and everyone tried to contain her, yet she outlived them all. Both could just throw a tantrum and create massive destruction. Also you can't call Syndra and Xerath pansies. You may not consider them badass, that's your opinion. But pansies? After what they've been through -which may not be as bad as other champions, it doesn't change that simple fact- and where they still are, and how powerful they are, calling them pansies?
> [{quoted}](name=Falrein,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cYEiZa9g,comment-id=00020000000000010001,timestamp=2019-09-20T17:12:11.261+0000) > > I fundamentally disagree, which is why I said it was subjective. > > I consider Syndra and Xerath far more badass than Jax, for instance. Xerath started as a slave and worked his way through being the most powerful Ascended ever created. Syndra was locked down by the very land, and everyone tried to contain her, yet she outlived them all. Both could just throw a tantrum and create massive destruction. > > Also you can't call Syndra and Xerath pansies. You may not consider them badass, that's your opinion. But pansies? After what they've been through -which may not be as bad as other champions, it doesn't change that simple fact- and where they still are, and how powerful they are, calling them pansies? Ok, maybe they are mental or emotional pansies. Sure they had to ENDURE a great bunch. But ENDURING or SURVIVING something does not make a badass. But no, specializing in a combat form that involves little grit or true risk isn't all the badass. It may be other things, like smart, or devious, or underhanded, or whatever. But not badass. Not by a long shot. If the context was, who is more powerful? sure, syndra and xerath are more powerful than jax. They may be wiser, more cunning, or whatever. But they don't have the gritty physical determination to pair WITH their power to be truly badass. This isn't me calling jax stupid either, just that he's a courageous fighter. There is nothing really to assume that syndra or xerath exemplify any heroic level of courage. Again, enduring slavery and surviving don't automatically make you courageous or badass. What's more, champs like jax and darius display more badass traits that can be EMULATED. Sure, it's a fantasy world, but xerath and syndra can hardly be emulated. Their entire power sources are basically arbitrary for that matter. Someone said that a marine is not as badass as them. Well, I'm not a member of the military, but I take some exception to that argument. Characters like jax and darius represent real life warriors like marines. Xerath and syndra are pure make believe. This also constitutes my reply RyzetheSmurfMage and PaleMask
Falrein (EUW)
: Oh no, no, that I know it's just... Well allow me to say it crudely but it's kind of laughable? I mean don't get me wrong I am sure Jax, in the IoW lore, was a great fighter. But in Runeterra (even the one back then), with champions such as Syndra or Xerath or... Well you get the point, I'm not sure a simple mastery weapons is enough to make you "the most powerful being". This is why I don't view him as _the_ badass. I mean it's completely objective anyway but surely you'll understand what I mean!
> [{quoted}](name=Falrein,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cYEiZa9g,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-20T12:22:26.873+0000) > > Oh no, no, that I know it's just... Well allow me to say it crudely but it's kind of laughable? > > I mean don't get me wrong I am sure Jax, in the IoW lore, was a great fighter. But in Runeterra (even the one back then), with champions such as Syndra or Xerath or... Well you get the point, I'm not sure a simple mastery weapons is enough to make you "the most powerful being". This is why I don't view him as _the_ badass. I mean it's completely objective anyway but surely you'll understand what I mean! But being badass just revolve around objective or relative power. It's also about personality, grit, being about action and not just words, etc. I'd even argue that neither xerath or syndra are badass at all. they're kind of pansies when you get right down to it. Jax's lore may be written in silly manner, and I may have bashed it previously in this very same thread, but jax is most certainly a badass (if not the most badass), and certainly more badass than paddycake xerath and hopscotch syndra. Think of it this way. Archers were very dangerous in medieval times, especially longbow men and crossbowmen when used properly in battle. But the swordsmen and knights on horseback were FAR more respected. They were widely looked upon as the true badasses, because they were physical and had to look their enemy in the eye and subject themselves to a far greater risk of harm. If I were being honest here, I'd place champs like azir, xerath, syndra, etc, at the back end of any compiled list of league badasses ranked 1-150.
Falrein (EUW)
: Why, if I may ask, is he supposed to be _the_ badass of League? Did I miss something? {{sticker:sg-zephyr}}
> [{quoted}](name=Falrein,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cYEiZa9g,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-19T20:42:08.351+0000) > > Why, if I may ask, is he supposed to be _the_ badass of League? Did I miss something? {{sticker:sg-zephyr}} I don't know tbh. I feel like darius is far more badass. Whereas jax is mostly just unrealistic. Jax's lore is the kind of story I'd expect just about any 12 yr old boy to write up. But to be honest that's how most of league's old lore was. The quality level of lore has risen substantially, but it's still rather bad overall, especially considering the kind of talent that league could AFFORD to hire for writing it. But as it stands, yeah jax was "badass" in the childish sort of way, and he is in sore need of newly updated lore.
: > [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9arUY4EL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-19T16:42:38.421+0000) > > Basically it meant that, even with two mobility sums up, I wasn't safe IN THE MIDDLE OF MY LANE, as a LANE BULLY type champ, because the instant my lane opponent lands CC it's a virtual guaranteed cc chain from nunu the jgler, This is pretty standard design, going all the way back to the beginning. Take Blitzcrank for instance - he's not a jungler, but he has the same pattern. If his hook or knockup lands, there's no getting off the wild ride you've just been signed up for, and it'll probably end in your death if there's anyone else around.
> [{quoted}](name=Karunamon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9arUY4EL,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-19T21:11:34.318+0000) > > This is pretty standard design, going all the way back to the beginning. Take Blitzcrank for instance - he's not a jungler, but he has the same pattern. If his hook or knockup lands, there's no getting off the wild ride you've just been signed up for, and it'll probably end in your death if there's anyone else around. Well you're right in that sense. But what I'm referring to is the fact that nunu was able to effectively circumvent wards entirely by simply charging from enemies top tower at mach 5 speeds. And unlike blitz, nunu's speed boost lasts longer, doesn't end with a self slow, and the snowball can't be blocked by minions. Like, i'm not here for the purpose of bashing nunu per say, but just to point out that that is a bogus gank, and should not be rewarded with a kill. There is next to zero counterplay aside from inane mobilty for an escape. Most normal junglers would have been spotted by wards unless they were extra tricky about it, and very few besides maybe ramus would be able to charge in like that, except that he too can be blocked by minions.
Vuuduu (NA)
: ME SEE CHAMPION, ME FIGHT THAT CHAMPION
I must say OP, you were very repetitive in your story telling. Yet, somehow, that is part of the allure.
Manxxom (NA)
: League players: Renekton is best croc.
Lol whenever I see a King K Rool in smash I call him renekton.
: So according to your own Metrics Pyke should of gotten nerfed by now Riot
Sigh....Guess it's time to pick up and play either riven, pyke, or fiora. I can drop darius, urgot, and brand now. All too immobile and not enough straight burst to really matter. They don't have get out of jail free cards like pyke either, so it's time to just move on so I can be viable.... So I guess that's it, riot has about 20 champs. We should all only ever play riv, jax, fiora, pyke, yas, and any of the top 5 assassins or adcs.
wolvius (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXQY91Qo,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-09-19T14:16:18.445+0000) > > personally I think all the prestige skins look like washed/bleached out crap. The regular versions are much more colorful, characterful, and overall nicer. Well Riot seems to think piss coloured chroma's are great and worth alota money for some reason. I agree with you they seem bland and nothing unique about them. At least kda akali had the neon effect when in shroud, everything else didn't have nothing special.
> [{quoted}](name=wolvius,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXQY91Qo,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-09-19T14:43:53.131+0000) > > Well Riot seems to think piss coloured chroma's are great and worth alota money for some reason. I agree with you they seem bland and nothing unique about them. At least kda akali had the neon effect when in shroud, everything else didn't have nothing special. Lol I love it. Piss color is EXACTLY the way to describe those garbage overpriced "prestige" skins
: I am at a point where I do not care about the absurd damage, the absurd mobility, lack of defense...
I once was top lane as darius against I don't remember who. Could have been renekton or aatrox or something similar. I was almost exactly in the middle of lane, had flash and ghost up too. River was warded, and tri bush (enemy side) may have been warded for me too. None of it mattered. Nunu came snowballing in FROM THE ENEMY TOWER and caught me in a never ending gank. The only thing that would have saved me would have been to immediately pop BOTH FLASH AND GHOST. Sure, that part was my mistake. But the truly sad part is that I would need to do something like that just to safely retreat from the middle of my lane as darius, when, for reference, I was relatively even with my opponent in kills/cs/XP. Basically it meant that, even with two mobility sums up, I wasn't safe IN THE MIDDLE OF MY LANE, as a LANE BULLY type champ, because the instant my lane opponent lands CC it's a virtual guaranteed cc chain from nunu the jgler, even though I had proper vision up at the time. Like, nunu just ran it down from tower. Once I was cc'd by my laner just for a moment, I had no chance. Again, I would have had to have popped both my sums immediately. Instead, I tried to save them for when it would matter in the hopes that I wouldn't have to blow them for nothing. So what happens? I end up blowing them both anyway and explode anyway. Like, there is no way to counter that short of sitting under my tower and eating dirt the whole matchup. If I don't have both sums up, I might as well not even step out of tower range at any point for any reason unless my lane opponent is backed or roaming somewhere else.
: >I really do feel like Riot isn't listening to us at all when we say "Riven is too strong" Gee, I wonder why. Maybe it has something to do with the boards knowing jack shit about balance. I mean, you're calling for nerfs to a champion with a 0% winrate, pickrate, and banrate. Why does she have those stats? Because you can't do your most basic of jobs as OP and post the champion's actual stats before calling for nerfs.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXQY91Qo,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-09-19T14:13:27.003+0000) > > Gee, I wonder why. Maybe it has something to do with the boards knowing jack shit about balance. > > I mean, you're calling for nerfs to a champion with a 0% winrate, pickrate, and banrate. Why does she have those stats? Because you can't do your most basic of jobs as OP and post the champion's actual stats before calling for nerfs. Dude don't even start. Fricken riven apologists man. It's only 1 out of 100 players that would defend that heaping, steaming pile of elephant poo named riven.
wolvius (EUW)
: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/_E-_CtBXtMUEOMHRcfytI20tU80=/75x0:885x540/1200x800/filters:focal(75x0:885x540)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/1955623/hitman-absolution-blake-dexter.0.jpg Money And prestige editions https://pics.me.me/chair-vs-chair-prestige-edition-43625153.png
> [{quoted}](name=wolvius,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXQY91Qo,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-19T13:59:30.991+0000) > > https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/_E-_CtBXtMUEOMHRcfytI20tU80=/75x0:885x540/1200x800/filters:focal(75x0:885x540)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/1955623/hitman-absolution-blake-dexter.0.jpg > > And prestige edition > https://pics.me.me/chair-vs-chair-prestige-edition-43625153.png personally I think all the prestige skins look like washed/bleached out crap. The regular versions are much more colorful, characterful, and overall nicer.
: > [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=f4jA20aA,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-09-19T13:56:31.790+0000) > > My question is, what kind of weird af, perverted satisfaction does someone even receive from trolling THAT much. That's a LOT of time wasted trolling. The individual needs mental help pronto. I think its to do with it being easier and more fun to piss off your team than it is to play the game.
> [{quoted}](name=NoobDefault,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=f4jA20aA,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-09-19T14:11:15.789+0000) > > I think its to do with it being easier and more fun to piss off your team than it is to play the game. Easier, sure. More fun, only if you have mental issues. It's one thing to piss of your team after they've been dicks to you all game just because you're having an off game. It's another to intentionally troll, game after game after game. There's something not clicking properly in such an individuals brain.
: We should start with a -10% damage across the entire roster. And adjustvafter as necessary. Honestly I think 10% isn't enough. But it's a start.
> [{quoted}](name=Romans VI XXIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ENh4h2pZ,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-09-19T12:40:37.050+0000) > > We should start with a -10% damage across the entire roster. And adjustvafter as necessary. > > Honestly I think 10% isn't enough. But it's a start. -10% would be solid tbh. It would reduce the number of oneshot combos/scenarios quite a bit, and it would really hammer dps.
: If you don’t like it, don’t play it.
> [{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ENh4h2pZ,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-09-19T06:28:23.719+0000) > > If you don’t like it, don’t play it. If you don't like it, speak up. Why are you trying to just silence players? We're the consumers. We have a right to speak out about the garbage product riot is pumping out, in the hopes that it will become a good product again someday.
: Edit: Armchair devs mad. The truth is you all have no idea how balance works and dont understand cause and effect. Lol, what? This has been the single most vocal topic all season. Nobody denies damage is too high, but it wont change right before worlds. Wait for preseason. Screaming "riot bad" wont fix it, it will require a massive overhaul and rebalance of basically every champion along with adjusting runes and items.
> [{quoted}](name=MagicFlyingLlama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ENh4h2pZ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-19T00:17:20.742+0000) > > Lol, what? This has been the single most vocal topic all season. > > Nobody denies damage is too high, but it wont change right before worlds. Wait for preseason. > > Screaming "riot bad" wont fix it, it will require a massive overhaul and rebalance of basically every champion along with adjusting runes and items. Sadly for your point, riot has had the LAST THREE SEASONS TO FIX THE DAMAGE CREEP. And you think that players should be more patient or even CARE that world's is just around the corner. Screw worlds. How can players care about pro play in a game that's no longer fun or fair to play? Pro play is built off the average player experience. It will die by it as well.
: That's why people complain about the LOL report system...
My question is, what kind of weird af, perverted satisfaction does someone even receive from trolling THAT much. That's a LOT of time wasted trolling. The individual needs mental help pronto.
: > tanks and juggernauts lemme correct that: tanks and bruisers.
> [{quoted}](name=Aatrox Airlines,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XETeEgAa,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-18T20:13:23.488+0000) > > lemme correct that: tanks and bruisers. Yeah fair enough. The only difference I believe, is that a non-juggernaut bruiser should be more susceptible to being oneshot when behind, since they tend to build fewer overall hp and/or resistance items. However, most non-juggernaut bruisers also have more mobility and defensive mechanics, so they tend to stand a better chance against oneshot assassins lol.
Saezio (EUNE)
: So, you are saying that darius is a good example of a melee teamfight carry. I think he is too easily kiteable in the late game, and he doesn't scale that awesome to be considered a carry. Even the most early game focused ADC will do more in a 6 item teamfight scenario than the darius. I would like to see Riot design a melee champion that is designed to thrive in 5v5 teamfights as much as a Marksman, but not be just a low elo stomper (like Yi or NAsus) and depend solely on his enemies being unable to exploit the champion's weaknesses. Sure Irelia was busted, same as revive aatrox. That is why I am saying Riot still hasn't managed to do it. Maybe GP is a good example, but I think it is kinda cheating because he is not really 100% a melee champion.
> [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a5loNAn3,comment-id=00000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-18T15:35:37.887+0000) > > So, you are saying that darius is a good example of a melee teamfight carry. I think he is too easily kiteable in the late game, and he doesn't scale that awesome to be considered a carry. Even the most early game focused ADC will do more in a 6 item teamfight scenario than the darius. > > I would like to see Riot design a melee champion that is designed to thrive in 5v5 teamfights as much as a Marksman, but not be just a low elo stomper (like Yi or NAsus) and depend solely on his enemies being unable to exploit the champion's weaknesses. > > Sure Irelia was busted, same as revive aatrox. That is why I am saying Riot still hasn't managed to do it. > > Maybe GP is a good example, but I think it is kinda cheating because he is not really 100% a melee champion. I typed out a huge comment, but alas, I must retreat and live the life of a hermit. This whole time I thought that irelia gained 110 hp/lvl, but while doing some research, discovered that she only gains 95/lvl. Still solid, but it negates some of the points I was trying to make. My entire world is shaken, and I am but the shadow of a man.
Saezio (EUNE)
: So, you are agreeing with me. Riot can't create melee carry teamfight champions. They are all either super OP or Garbage. Where is our disagreement?
> [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a5loNAn3,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-17T19:23:28.844+0000) > > So, you are agreeing with me. > > Riot can't create melee carry teamfight champions. They are all either super OP or Garbage. > > Where is our disagreement? No not really. What I'm saying is you can have a melee carry, carry a team fight, but it shouldn't be due to an abundance of tools (think of irelia, akali, aatrox having too many tools after rework). They should still have to think more about their actions. They should be strong in the right comps and at the right times, not ALL of the time in ALL comps. They all needed more clear strengths and weaknesses and were very toxic to play against and sometimes, with. What I'm saying is, you can have melee carries, but they should have true conditions. Irelia, especially prenerfs, had so many tools in her kit, so many ways to engage, disengage, dodge abilities, re-engage, reduce incoming damage, reduce output of opponents, counter shields, AND out damage almost anyone she fought. She'd make an entire team dizzy just trying to pin her down. She didn't have clear weaknesses, as she had both clear and general strength, and was so good at everything she did that she made up for being a melee a million times over. Someone like darius though. He does lots of damage. But he needs to build stacks, and unlike irelia, can't do it against minions or monsters. He has zero innate mobility. He can't stun someone from a mile away or engage from a mile away. Even with ghost, he can't make people dizzy, everyone knows just WHERE HE WILL BE, unless he has flash (and everyone gets flash so that's fair). He has monstrous sustain, but only on a shortish ranged, very telegraphed ability that has two forms of counterplay, but otherwise, he has no defensive mechanisms so he has to buy tanky items or he'll never survive. In some comps and situations he can carry, in others he will be useless, and at other times a rather neutral factor. That's how melee carries should be. Sure, irelia is more of a diver and darius is a juggernaut, but my point is that irelia covers her weaknesses too well in-kit. Whereas darius as to cover his weaknesses with runes, summoners spells, and items. When he wants ghost for dueling/escape, he sacrifices map pressure with TP, or absolute duel pressure with ignite. When he wants randuin's omen and adaptive helm because he's being blasted and kited, he sacrfices mobility or damage. If he wants more damage like death's dance, he sacrifices durability and mobility. If he wants more mobility from righteous glory or deadmans, he sacrifices superior tank items and better damage. If he wants to itemize against AD with tabi, randuins, deadmans, cleaver/tri, steraks, and only spirit visage/deaths dance, then he's super vulnerable (and kitable by) the enemy brand. If he itemizes more against an AP heavy team, he's vulnerable to the uber well scaling adc, even if the adc is behind. See, the thing there is there are meaningful tradeoffs for any part of darius's kit that he wishes to enhance or weakness he wants to cover. But with champs like irelia, she might build some durability sure, like tabi and steraks gauge, but she makes up for so many weaknesses by simply being HYPER mobile while having insane damage, and akali does this too. Aatrox isn't hyper mobile, but he is a juggernaut with the most mobility (when ult is up), the most CC, great sustain, amazing zoning due to huge and far reaching AOEs, (used to have) great waveclear, and he can build a lot of damage without a ton of tradeoff. Granted, he's weak now after numerous nerfs, but before he was absolutely overtuned. Of course, with revive he was OP, but then he became an insane duelist with his ult when they gave him the ability to spam Q while giving him massive MS boost (which is why he's more mobile than any juggernaut, at least when his ult is up). His MS boost scales up to 100%! I guess what riot has done with recent reworks on melee carries is, they've gone trigger happy and given too many strengths and tools, such that they can cover weaknesses in most general scenarios.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6F8NWBs3,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-09-17T14:18:06.575+0000) > > Are you kidding OP? Rengar and Kha have been pro viable in MANY years. Maybe not now, but certainly they were almost omnipresent at times in past. Rengar not really. Kha'Zix yes.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6F8NWBs3,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-09-18T09:14:37.767+0000) > > Rengar not really. > > Kha'Zix yes. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I at least remember rengar being strong somewhere between 2014-2016 in pro play, and in LCS. If that was the only time he was viable, then I concede.
: 1. Absolutely. As a support main, I empathize with this issue. I'm here trying to be a good support and get my carry kills, and I end up losing half my lanes to selfish supports who run Ignite and build pure damage items, no wards. The Support Carry meta punishes you for playing support the right way. 2. This is tricky. Assassins need a way to have a chance to get in close without dying instantly. Pink wards guard against this to a degree, but those are easy to break and are only truly reliable when plopped down before a teamfight is about to start. However, you also have a point. Personally... I think your point might be a side effect of the damage meta. If assassins couldn't one-shot almost anything in the game, this wouldn't be as huge an issue. At least make it take a full combo... 3. Agreed. It's not that I've never beaten these sorts of champions, but objectively speaking, it's an imbalanced move to create a champion who is _extremely_ difficult to lane against but also has a very strong late game. It should ideally be one or the other. Either the champion is very strong in lane and mediocre in late fights, or the champion snowballs late but takes a while to get started.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XETeEgAa,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-17T18:48:47.225+0000) > > 1. Absolutely. As a support main, I empathize with this issue. I'm here trying to be a good support and get my carry kills, and I end up losing half my lanes to selfish supports who run Ignite and build pure damage items, no wards. The Support Carry meta punishes you for playing support the right way. > > 2. This is tricky. Assassins need a way to have a chance to get in close without dying instantly. Pink wards guard against this to a degree, but those are easy to break and are only truly reliable when plopped down before a teamfight is about to start. However, you also have a point. Personally... I think your point might be a side effect of the damage meta. If assassins couldn't one-shot almost anything in the game, this wouldn't be as huge an issue. At least make it take a full combo... > > 3. Agreed. It's not that I've never beaten these sorts of champions, but objectively speaking, it's an imbalanced move to create a champion who is _extremely_ difficult to lane against but also has a very strong late game. It should ideally be one or the other. Either the champion is very strong in lane and mediocre in late fights, or the champion snowballs late but takes a while to get started. 1. Agree 2. Also agree and will say that assassins SHOULD be able to oneshot...the squishy carries and anyone who is massively behind. They SHOULD NOT be able to oneshot or even have a chance at dueling tanks and juggernauts. As it is, it's too easy for assassins to snowball and oneshot or duel for extended periods of time the tanks and juggernauts. Assassins should look for OUT OF POSITION mages, squishy sups, and adcs. They shouldn't being face diving every chance they get, just because they are guaranteed kills and an ez escape. Sadly, they are pretty ridiculous right now though. 3. I don't entirely agree here. In this case, take for instance someone like darius. He's widely considered an early-mid game champ and a lane bully. Well he's not the lane bully he used to be pre-update, not as good early. Conversely, he's better than he used to be in the late game. A champ like him is strong in many cases, but also utterly useless in many others depending on: Enemy skill, enemy team comp, and his own team comp. Sure, that applies to most matchups, but it especially applies to champs like darius. A darius has the potential to be very strong in the late game, but if they have good peel on the enemy team with great kite, and darius is either the only tank or the only engage, it will be rough. If the enemy team has a good annivia or brand, etc, it's easy to cc chain him at arm's length and melt him down while he accomplishes nothing. So in a case like darius, I think it's acceptable to have the potential to be strong in both lane and mid/late game, because he has the potential to be useless in all of those as well based on matchups. And matchups apply to him more than champs like yasuo, vayne, jhin, etc.
Barso55 (NA)
: Vayne is absolute bullshit
It's not so much that she has too many rare or unique mechanics, it's the end results of the synergies of all those opponents (like a chemical reaction). Like for insance, nunu has some unique mechanics, and even though he can be too strong at times, I don't think anyone would argue it to be more than just numbers issues or metas (most of the time). The problem with vayne is the combination of those attributes, while also being overall massively power creeped. The only thing that keeps her in check at all right now is the highly mobile oneshot meta. Otherwise, she's being powercrept to heck and back. Insane ult buffs, insane W buffs, and even some solid Q buffs, all in the last year or two. Simply put, having a ranged champ that is so good at kiting, so mobile and difficult to hit, let alone see, with insane damage against juggers and tanks, while being able to duel most adcs and most mages if they can't hit her, is a problem. She's not just anti armor/hp as a specialty. She's also generally strong. The only two real weaknesses are her burstability (if she gets out of position) and her lack of multitarget damage.
Saezio (EUNE)
: Well, riot can't balance champions like aatrox so. IDK what you expected. WE CAN'T HAVE MELEE CHAMPIONS THAT CARRY TEAMFIGHTS
> [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a5loNAn3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-17T14:38:00.520+0000) > > Well, riot can't balance champions like aatrox so. IDK what you expected. WE CAN'T HAVE MELEE CHAMPIONS CARRY TEAMFIGHTS Wrong, it's one thing to have a melee carry. It's another for that melee carry to be a "juggernaut" with decent mobility, huge aoe's, solid range, insane sustain, insane damage, and solid CC. Perhaps the changes they made were harsh or poorly directed, but the champ NEEDED to lose something. Perhaps aatrox needs to lose something entirely, but be compensated in another way, so that he has more clear strengths and weaknesses. I admit though, nerfing his waveclear didn't seem the right way to go WHILE AT THE SAME TIME having sustain % on minions be heavily nerfed.
Lovelle (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=l9jeE1jO,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-16T13:08:43.466+0000) > > Well, there used to be lots of issues with tank fizz and tank ekko (around the same time as tanksuo, etc), but you OP is still wrong. Most people don't want tanks to have more damage, they want them to tank long enough to well...tank (and there are a few who do, but many who are too weak) and peel. If tanks get more damage it will cause just more issues in general. The game needs more damage not less. This would only contribute to damage creep and shows the OP is out of touch with the real issues. > > What well-informed people are clamoring for, isn't just straight buffs to tank items, but _SCALING_ buffs based on base hp, armor, etc, in ways that would mostly benefit tanks and juggernauts over other classes. Ideally, there would be tank items with mixed flat and scaling stats. I feel the defensive runes could use much better mid-late game scaling. The Resolve tree is in a weird place where it's "okay" early (though blatantly better on AD/AP casters) and has practically no scaling compared to every tree barring Inspiration. The best runes Resolve offers are the ones that provide damage Compared to the mastery system, there isn't enough in the Resolve tree that accommodates tank itemization. If Riot doesn't want defensive power to be strong early game, then it needs far better scaling to compensate, which would help both tanks and immobile melees alike. I feel like a broken record at this point. There needs to be both staff and perspective changes at Rito Games before they can start making decisions that are better for the game. As long as the rune system remains as is, this game will continue to be a balance nightmare, let alone the blatant favoritism concerning champ balancing.
> [{quoted}](name=Lovelle,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=l9jeE1jO,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-17T15:32:23.191+0000) > > I feel the defensive runes could use much better mid-late game scaling. The Resolve tree is in a weird place where it's "okay" early (though blatantly better on AD/AP casters) and has practically no scaling compared to every tree barring Inspiration. The best runes Resolve offers are the ones that provide damage > > > Compared to the mastery system, there isn't enough in the Resolve tree that accommodates tank itemization. If Riot doesn't want defensive power to be strong early game, then it needs far better scaling to compensate, which would help both tanks and immobile melees alike. > > I feel like a broken record at this point. There needs to be both staff and perspective changes at Rito Games before they can start making decisions that are better for the game. As long as the rune system remains as is, this game will continue to be a balance nightmare, let alone the blatant favoritism concerning champ balancing. I agree, the resolve tree is sort of garbo. grasp is actually usually best on ranged champs compared to melee. The scaling hp one had that huge nerf about a year ago and is really only strong on champs like sion or cho, otherwise it's meh. Demolish is good for towers, but clearly no combat power, and the middle section of runes is pretty weak overall tbh. Nowadays I basically only take some resolve runes in my secondary tree, and only some of the time at that.
Rockman (NA)
: Darius already has his passive and W reset. He doesn't need more incentive for damage.
> [{quoted}](name=Rockman,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2jO1ooEG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-16T22:48:50.196+0000) > > Darius already has his passive and W reset. He doesn't need more incentive for damage. And what the OP doesn't really understand is that darius can run those items anyway and deal tons of damage. The PROBLEM is that he gets VERY EASILY stun locked/cc chained, and a darius with only one or two defensive items (including boots) will blow up in an instant any time he even approaches a competent team for a fight. You could give him 50 spins and he'd still die before he reached a target if he built that squishy. What a champ like darius really needs is to be able to apply an AS debuff again, or a damage debuff that increases with each stack. Game needs less damage, not more.
: No Buff will make Blitz pro viable
Are you kidding OP? Rengar and Kha have been pro viable in MANY years. Maybe not now, but certainly they were almost omnipresent at times in past.
: Infernal Darius
Personally, I've been waiting for both Drunk Master and Funk Master Darius to come out. Hopefully someday soon. Just imagine, darius (especially with his base model legs xD ) hitting up the disco with some bell bottom pants and an afro. And it wouldn't be hard to imagine darius drunk, stumbling around trying to swing his axe (kind of like zombie brand)
: Garen main, insights into rework.
Hmmmm. What if spin count also scaled on bonus MS? This would make him synergize VERY well with items like phantom dancer or static shiv. Well, he might be too squshy still, but the bonus MS would be nice for not getting kited, and would mean that he'd get a nice bonus from every aspect of those items. But yeah the problems with that would be that he's both squishy and he wouldn't gain any AD. Perhaps, in synergy with the nerfs they gave to garen's W, they could also garen + 2/3/4 (per R rank) bonus armor and magic resist for every champ he executes with his ultimate.
Keiaga (NA)
: That's all impertinent. Damage is damage and if it's caused by your champion, then the turret is going to aggro. Auras and indirect damage from champions are established to proc turret aggro like ongoing DoT poisons(which are WEAKER than sunfire's passive), singed's gas, and the aura off of Tibbers. Damage from items are established to proc turret aggro like the splash from Ludens. So why would you think that sunfire would be the exception?
> [{quoted}](name=Keiaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-16T18:35:42.268+0000) > > That's all impertinent. Damage is damage and if it's caused by your champion, then the turret is going to aggro. There's little difference between Sunfire's passive and singed's gas. Tibber's damaging aura also counts as damage and aggros to annie. Same with Yorick's maiden/ghouls, and DoT poisons. False analogy. Annie is a ranged mage who controls a minion in the form of Tibbers. Singed can toggle gas on and off. Yorick doesn't have to throw ghouls on you if he wants to safely dive a turret to proc demolish. Those are all horrible analogies as they represent active or toggle spells that require conscious effort to use on an opponent. With sunfire, you proc turret aggro simply for existing near the enemy champ. You've failed to make a good point as to how those examples are relatable to sunfire. You've also failed to show that somehow sunfire cape would be broken if it didn't proc turret aggro. And please, don't repeat the argument where you say "the tank could just run circles around the defender while attacking turret and killing the enemy lane." that's just garbage. Again, anybody who can't defend turret against such a terrible dive wouldn't be able to defend turret against ANY other kind of dive anyway, and they should either back or die. Period. Keep in mind I never even use sunfire. I'm a dar main, urgot/brand second, with some things like cho or sunfire. But I never buy that item because 1. It doesn't synergize great with the champs I play and 2. It's just not that great. The item is basically a self nerf if you buy it and manage to push lane enough to try and proc demolish. So either turret aggro SHOULD NOT be procced by sunfire passive, OR, sunfire passive should be toggleable.
Keiaga (NA)
: If the passive is "laughable" then it can't also be "useful". It's a pretty crap item that lets you farm a tiny bit faster and auto aggros turrets during dives. Just buy something else becausae the alternative is that anyone who buys it gets a chance to do FREE damage undertower without proccing aggro.
> [{quoted}](name=Keiaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-14T18:34:11.086+0000) > > If the passive is "laughable" then it can't also be "useful". It's a pretty crap item that lets you farm a tiny bit faster and auto aggros turrets during dives. Just buy something else becausae the alternative is that anyone who buys it gets a chance to do FREE damage undertower without proccing aggro. barely any free damage. If you can't stay clear enough of the tank, and are actually low enough to die, then you would have died from ANY OTHER LANER diving you, except that if it was jax, or irelia, or riven, or zed, or ekko, or pyke, you'd have almost zero chance of living. You'd have no way of defending yourself. At least with a tank with sunfire, you can run around in circles if you are that desperate to soak of CS exp or try to wait for your jgler, rather than backing like you probably should.
: It seems absurd but in a game where 10 to 20 damage or a few percentage points on a scalling is enough to buff or trash a champion, it stands to reason that caution should be taken. 5 base damage was enough to bring Jhin back into the game, for example.
> [{quoted}](name=CloakAndGrenade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-09-14T18:38:55.542+0000) > > It seems absurd but in a game where 10 to 20 damage or a few percentage points on a scalling is enough to buff or trash a champion, it stands to reason that caution should be taken. 5 base damage was enough to bring Jhin back into the game, for example. While I see what your point is, the truth is that it wouldn't make sunfire is strong diving tool, and as regards to comparing it to something like jhin's base damage buff, it's like apples to oranges. For instance, that 5 base damage has a multiplying factor: autos deal 5 more damage, autos that crit deal 12.5 more damage with I.E. Abilities scale better, and on top of all of that. Jhin also CS's much better because of that as well. If you get say, 5-15 more CS in laning phase per game, that's going to add up and become a difference maker every now and then. To make it even MORE impactful, jhin has REALLY good range. Sure, tanks get aoe out of sunfire, but the range of the aura is pretty bad, and since it's lowish damage on top of a slowish tick rate. I'm not saying that the offense aspect is actually bad, i'm saying the combination of the burn and average tank stats don't really compare to better tank items, since sunfire doesn't really add a lot of kill pressure. And again, every panics and acts like tanks would become diving machines. They wouldn't, most tanks are the ones GETTING dove. This only applies in scenarios where the tank is either far superior to the opponent in game skill, or the jungler helped a lot, or some similar instance, where the tank just wants to get a demolish proc, but isn't able to because of sunfire. And if NOTHING else, AT LEAST make sunfire cape's burn a toggle. Then a tank could turn it off, dive tower for a demolish proc with minions, and get out with being punished for having an item that causing low automatic damage just because the tank needs it for cs clear.
: > [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fq0B6mEf,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-09-16T13:20:08.250+0000) > > Don't forget, unlike darius, pyke has a training wheels execute threshold indicator because pyke players need Riot to hold their hands. Don't forget also that, pyke can literally ult the same opponent multiple times to GET them into execute threshold, which isn't hard really. He just needs to execute one or more teammates nearby, and pyke could easily do you for 1.5-2.5k damage over that course. It shouldn't deal 50% of its damage in physical if it can be applied again and again. I'd say a fair amount would be around 25% to 30% as physical damage.
> [{quoted}](name=Introspective,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fq0B6mEf,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-16T15:49:24.712+0000) > > It shouldn't deal 50% of its damage in physical if it can be applied again and again. I'd say a fair amount would be around 25% to 30% as physical damage. I think that would be a fair nerf since it's otherwise such an impactful ability
: leave my boi shojin alone, just fcking remove kaisa..... champ can simultaneously give you hemorrhoids and destroy your anus playing agianst her
> [{quoted}](name=2kewl4life,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zAkIr7Jj,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-09-16T01:43:22.676+0000) > > leave my boi shojin alone, just fcking remove kaisa..... champ can simultaneously give you hemorrhoids and destroy your anus playing agianst her kaisai is busted, but she is NOT the reason SoS is a problem. The broken af passive needs to be removed. Thank goodness it will be.
: in my opinion pyke was never fine. He just shouldn't exist at all.
> [{quoted}](name=RebeccaUCuber,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fq0B6mEf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-09-16T12:45:54.351+0000) > > in my opinion pyke was never fine. > He just shouldn't exist at all. Agreed, the champ is a toxic waste of a design. Never should have made an "assassin support." As I recall, Riot had already made the support role much more popular than it used to be, even without pyke. It's one thing to have a support with high mechanical skill or high damage or whatever, but he basically breaks the rules of fairness in this game.
: I just don't understand so many things about his R. It shouldn't be allowed to have so many things at once. From what I can tell, it has: AoE damage True damage Resets on kills Resets on mistimed kills??????? Blink Have no cost after resets Have a staggering 20 seconds of reset time Give so much gold If anything, none of these should have as high numbers or even be a thing. Darius' execute for instance is only single target. Why should Pyke's be AoE AND have all those other bonuses? Darius even needs to hit a few autos before even coming close to Pyke's execute threshold. There are several bottom lines I think just should not be a thing. The most glaring one is mistiming his ults. He should not get a reset if he mistimes it. Furthermore, since it literally has the potential of chain-executing an entire team, it shouldn't cost nothing after the first cast. If anything, it should cost something like 100, 75, 50, 25, 0 mana. In order to execute an entire team he needs at least 250 mana instead of just 100. Certain champions can do so much less with the same amount of mana.
> [{quoted}](name=Introspective,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fq0B6mEf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-16T12:12:45.807+0000) > > I just don't understand so many things about his R. It shouldn't be allowed to have so many things at once. From what I can tell, it has: > AoE damage > True damage > Resets on kills > Resets on mistimed kills??????? > Blink > Have no cost after resets > Have a staggering 20 seconds of reset time > Give so much gold > > If anything, none of these should have as high numbers or even be a thing. Darius' execute for instance is only single target. Why should Pyke's be AoE AND have all those other bonuses? Darius even needs to hit a few autos before even coming close to Pyke's execute threshold. > > There are several bottom lines I think just should not be a thing. The most glaring one is mistiming his ults. He should not get a reset if he mistimes it. Furthermore, since it literally has the potential of chain-executing an entire team, it shouldn't cost nothing after the first cast. If anything, it should cost something like 100, 75, 50, 25, 0 mana. In order to execute an entire team he needs at least 250 mana instead of just 100. Certain champions can do so much less with the same amount of mana. Don't forget, unlike darius, pyke has a training wheels execute threshold indicator because pyke players need Riot to hold their hands. Don't forget also that, pyke can literally ult the same opponent multiple times to GET them into execute threshold, which isn't hard really. He just needs to execute one or more teammates nearby, and pyke could easily do you for 1.5-2.5k damage over that course.
: > [{quoted}](name=VageneAndBøbs,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fq0B6mEf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-16T09:13:35.340+0000) > > The thing is.. In their effort to ruin solo lane Pyke, they had to make compensations for support Pyke that resulted in this.. > You can't nerf 1 role in to the ground without compensating for the lack off power he then has in the other role. > > So you have to choose between 2 evils, Solo lane Pyke or a strong support Pyke. Not quite though? Problem was always that he could engage willfully and either directly solokill you or leave you needing to take like 10-20% more max hp damage before he could ult and drop you but you could not actually do anything to him. Engage on him? He dashes and stealths away+regen. Poke him? He regens insanely. All in him to drive him off? Insane regen so unless you could directly 100 to 0 him it was pointless, you´d be wasting resources and CDS for nothing. Even if he couldnt kill you he could just go in a few times until he could and it would work, not like he´d ever lose trades with that nutty healing of his. These have never changed, these are why he´s always been good and why people feel so frustrated dealing with him. The only way to deal with him is to wait for him to go in on his own and screw up horribly, that´s it, there is no other way to kill or even just trade back at him.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fq0B6mEf,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-16T09:59:31.173+0000) > > Not quite though? > > Problem was always that he could engage willfully and either directly solokill you or leave you needing to take like 10-20% more max hp damage before he could ult and drop you but you could not actually do anything to him. > > Engage on him? He dashes and stealths away+regen. > > Poke him? He regens insanely. > > All in him to drive him off? Insane regen so unless you could directly 100 to 0 him it was pointless, you´d be wasting resources and CDS for nothing. > > Even if he couldnt kill you he could just go in a few times until he could and it would work, not like he´d ever lose trades with that nutty healing of his. > > These have never changed, these are why he´s always been good and why people feel so frustrated dealing with him. > > > The only way to deal with him is to wait for him to go in on his own and screw up horribly, that´s it, there is no other way to kill or even just trade back at him. Even if he screws up horribly, he's so dam safe due to the OP way his dash works with good range and STUNNING anybody who tries to chase. Stunning anybody he goes through. The dude is literally impossible to 1v1 finish off unless you burst him immediately or he's stupid enough to stick around against a stronger opponent with no backup. The champ is literally braindead
: The thing is.. In their effort to ruin solo lane Pyke, they had to make compensations for support Pyke that resulted in this.. You can't nerf 1 role in to the ground without compensating for the lack off power he then has in the other role. So you have to choose between 2 evils, Solo lane Pyke or a strong support Pyke.
> [{quoted}](name=VageneAndBøbs,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fq0B6mEf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-16T09:13:35.340+0000) > > The thing is.. In their effort to ruin solo lane Pyke, they had to make compensations for support Pyke that resulted in this.. > You can't nerf 1 role in to the ground without compensating for the lack off power he then has in the other role. > > So you have to choose between 2 evils, Solo lane Pyke or a strong support Pyke. That's laughable because pyke is vastly overtuned now in the support role. Which is to say that, even with supposed solo-lane nerfs, he was STILL balanced in support role. Now, with an overbuffed ult (gold, execute indicator, aoe at range being able to hit the same champ multiple times) and supreme forgiveness for terrible decisions (from excellent mobility and solid CC plus ridiculous regen), pyke is just ridiculous. He never DOESN'T GET FED AND SNOWBALL. There is almost no difference in performance between good pykes and bad pykes, because the dude is both on training wheels AND overtuned af.
Lovelle (NA)
: Buffing tank items helps pretty much everyone other than mages and assassins.
> [{quoted}](name=Lovelle,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=l9jeE1jO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-15T18:16:52.714+0000) > > Buffing tank items helps pretty much everyone other than mages and assassins. Well, there used to be lots of issues with tank fizz and tank ekko (around the same time as tanksuo, etc), but you OP is still wrong. Most people don't want tanks to have more damage, they want them to tank long enough to well...tank (and there are a few who do, but many who are too weak) and peel. If tanks get more damage it will cause just more issues in general. The game needs more damage not less. This would only contribute to damage creep and shows the OP is out of touch with the real issues. What well-informed people are clamoring for, isn't just straight buffs to tank items, but _SCALING_ buffs based on base hp, armor, etc, in ways that would mostly benefit tanks and juggernauts over other classes. Ideally, there would be tank items with mixed flat and scaling stats.
: Removing the aggro trigger entirely would make it ripe for abuse. Just walking in circles around an enemy to slowly kill them over time. It's not just 3 damage, it's 6-24 based on level. It doesn't seem like much but especially if the enemy hits you and takes minion agro, you could kill them while under turret while not actually hitting them or taking damage from the turret. Perhaps set it so that it requires a minimum of three or four damage procs before it hits. This would allow aftershock procs while limiting the abuse potential.
> [{quoted}](name=CloakAndGrenade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-09-14T17:26:59.792+0000) > > Removing the aggro trigger entirely would make it ripe for abuse. Just walking in circles around an enemy to slowly kill them over time. It's not just 3 damage, it's 6-24 based on level. It doesn't seem like much but especially if the enemy hits you and takes minion agro, you could kill them while under turret while not actually hitting them or taking damage from the turret. Perhaps set it so that it requires a minimum of three or four damage procs before it hits. This would allow aftershock procs while limiting the abuse potential. And also, bami has a low range, it would be incredibly easy for someone to walk away from it while under tower if that tank isn't actively attacking you lmao.
: Removing the aggro trigger entirely would make it ripe for abuse. Just walking in circles around an enemy to slowly kill them over time. It's not just 3 damage, it's 6-24 based on level. It doesn't seem like much but especially if the enemy hits you and takes minion agro, you could kill them while under turret while not actually hitting them or taking damage from the turret. Perhaps set it so that it requires a minimum of three or four damage procs before it hits. This would allow aftershock procs while limiting the abuse potential.
> [{quoted}](name=CloakAndGrenade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-09-14T17:26:59.792+0000) > > Removing the aggro trigger entirely would make it ripe for abuse. Just walking in circles around an enemy to slowly kill them over time. It's not just 3 damage, it's 6-24 based on level. It doesn't seem like much but especially if the enemy hits you and takes minion agro, you could kill them while under turret while not actually hitting them or taking damage from the turret. Perhaps set it so that it requires a minimum of three or four damage procs before it hits. This would allow aftershock procs while limiting the abuse potential. That would be a terrible strategy. Is the opponent just going to stand there while bami does it's thing for like an entire minute? that's at least how long it would take to kill someone from half or full hp. It's damage is absurdly low against champs. The person being dove would have AMPLE opportunity to abuse any idiot who would try such a stupid move. Or, they should back and gtfo like anybody who is too low hp and about to get dove, or low hp and no mana, etc. It's no different, except that generally in a 1v1, i'd rather get dove by a tank ANYDAY, than by a diver/assassin/mobile fighter like jax, irelia, riven, kled, akali, etc. The only exception might be malphite if you're low hp and he has ult.
SEKAI (OCE)
: I mean, any aura based anything has always entail the higher risk of tower aggro (and minion aggro). It's part of the balance. Same goes for things like Tiamat, where attacking towers also does the Cleave effect and make sieging slightly harder since it makes tower aggro easier to acquire. That's the case right? Champion who naturally does DoT also makes harassing enemy under tower while they're pushed in a bit of a pain since they have to purposefully wait for the DoT to expire before they can harass again or risk getting tower aggro the instant they enter tower range. And the list goes on. It's part of the balance scheme, I say.
> [{quoted}](name=SEKAI,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-14T16:50:53.562+0000) > > I mean, any aura based anything has always entail the higher risk of tower aggro (and minion aggro). It's part of the balance. > > Same goes for things like Tiamat, where attacking towers also does the Cleave effect and make sieging slightly harder since it makes tower aggro easier to acquire. That's the case right? > > Champion who naturally does DoT also makes harassing enemy under tower while they're pushed in a bit of a pain since they have to purposefully wait for the DoT to expire before they can harass again or risk getting tower aggro the instant they enter tower range. > > And the list goes on. > > It's part of the balance scheme, I say. It's not a part of the balance though. Sunfire cape is objectively a trash tier defensive item, but some tanks need the wave clear from it in order to function in lane. It's damage gets so outscaled that it is both trash in terms of offense and defense. It's only good stats are armor and hp (and armor isn't all that amazing anyway), but it's passive is so bad, that tanks are just better with items like titanic (if they want some damage and waveclear) and randuins/thornmail, deadmans, righteous glory, if they want hp/armor
: > [{quoted}](name=ExplodingFist66,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-14T16:24:49.334+0000) > > "Unkillable" yeah good one, i don't think you're aware of the current damage meta. Tanks get melted anyway Every tank except {{champion:54}} Id say but yea
> [{quoted}](name=AlterMordred,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-14T16:43:27.649+0000) > > Every tank except {{champion:54}} Id say but yea even malphite wouldn't last long undertower trying to kill someone with bami, if that person was hammering them with everything they have. malphite would be forced to either consciously attack that champ (like any normal dive), or gtfo
Keiaga (NA)
: Dont buy bami cinder if you dont lije its aura
> [{quoted}](name=Keiaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-14T16:40:53.912+0000) > > Dont buy bami cinder if you dont lije its aura Bad suggestion. An item with a useful passive shouldn't be countered so hard core by tower. Same goes for bramble. It's absurd, because it's not even a good scaling item in the first place, and it's base damage is pretty laughable.
Juice (EUNE)
: So tanks can just walk under the tower and burn you to death since they're unkillable anyway?
> [{quoted}](name=Juice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-14T15:35:43.876+0000) > > So tanks can just walk under the tower and burn you to death since they're unkillable anyway? Oh, and tanks aren't unkillable. That's also absurd. Wtf game do you even play? lmao
Juice (EUNE)
: So tanks can just walk under the tower and burn you to death since they're unkillable anyway?
> [{quoted}](name=Juice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-14T15:35:43.876+0000) > > So tanks can just walk under the tower and burn you to death since they're unkillable anyway? LMFAO. Like that would EVER happen? First, bami damage vs champs is garbo, second, that wouldn't work as a strategy except against opponents with like less than 50 hp. If you're that low you're gonna die to just about any dive. I mean, the person defending tower still has A KIT full of ABILITIES or AA's at least for defending themselves. if ANY TANK wanted to try your absurd suggestion, they would die without retaliating or leaving, because the person defending tower would hammer them before bami did any meaningful damage. Try to think before you say something like that.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Darkdemon653,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-14T15:08:41.433+0000) > > Same thing with Vest and Thornmail No.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sPOrGujR,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-14T15:31:58.278+0000) > > No. Yes.
: QOL: Make Bami Cinder stop triggering tower aggro
I agree with Op. Also, make it so bramble doesn't proc tower aggro either, because that's honestly stupid af.
: > [{quoted}](name=ImTheJuggernauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YocqdMcE,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-09-14T16:15:57.038+0000) > > Why would you ever go adaptive helm just for a garen (I mean sure, if they have like a rumble, brand, malz, or whatever on their team)? He does zero magic damage anymore, and even then, adaptive helm wouldn't help even when his ult did magic damage, you're always better off going spirit visage in this matchup (again, unless there are other reasons besides garen to use adaptive's passive). > Garen Ult is still magic damage in lane. (Not that anybody should build MR vs Garen.)
> [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YocqdMcE,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-09-14T16:26:29.992+0000) > > Garen Ult is still magic damage in lane. (Not that anybody should build MR vs Garen.) Oh thanks for the correction. I thought they completely changed garen's ult to true damage. And yeah, building mr against garen for the sake of mr is a bad choice. Used to be decent when he only did magic damage on ult.
Glîtchy (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Keiaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YocqdMcE,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-14T08:07:26.527+0000) > > Darius has his bleeding stacks and a giant heal on his q. I haven't done the math but judging from some other topics guides about the "garen vs darius" match up, most people seem to agree that darius is stronger. What also didn’t help was the fact that the jg camped the living fuck outta me until Garen got black cleaver, but even then I couldn’t 1v1 Garen under my own turret
> [{quoted}](name=Glîtchy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YocqdMcE,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-14T13:25:45.692+0000) > > What also didn’t help was the fact that the jg camped the living fuck outta me until Garen got black cleaver, but even then I couldn’t 1v1 Garen under my own turret That's because it's too late at that point. You have to learn to freeze wave. That's been a weakness of mine too. 4 out of 5 times that I lose lane it's because I don't manage the wave, overextend, and get ganked repeatedly. Sometimes, even being pushed to mid lane is too far out without flash/ghost if you are up against a good jgler. So you gotta be careful. If you jgler focuses you a ton, your priority should be to safely CS, freeze lane close to tower, and just get out of lane phase without feeding. If you have some good opportunities for a kill though, go for it.
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ImTheJuggernauty

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