: > [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=M09slA58,comment-id=000b00010000000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-25T16:18:16.734+0000) > > Yes, he is in fact. Part of a Player's responsibility in the Summoners Code is to communicate and work with your team, not just be a warm body on the team. That goes both ways. They did nothing to communicate their strategies with him. Holding 1 player to a standard and not the other 4 to that standard is absurd. This reason doesn't hold up.
> [{quoted}](name=Freedom Dividend,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=M09slA58,comment-id=000b000100000001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-25T16:34:29.974+0000) > > That goes both ways. They did nothing to communicate their strategies with him. Holding 1 player to a standard and not the other 4 to that standard is absurd. This reason doesn't hold up. Because their base strategy was communicated via the lane placements. The one deviating needs to communicate why. > [{quoted}](name=Freedom Dividend,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=M09slA58,comment-id=000c0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-25T16:38:21.207+0000) > > It was discussed at length back in the days and as long as you played to win and the gameplay showed that, you were fine. That was not always the case. Pick Order was thing for a reason. And whoever was past was screwed if the person that picked their role was also good if not better. But either way, the point stands that the solution is *communication*. If you suck at an autofilled role, tell your team. Isn’t the matchmaking for fairer matches based on position a thing still as well (been a while for me)?
: 9.14: Lore Update
That new Malphite lore makes me really happy. A good shift, still keeping some of his original elements. Really love his personality, and the descriptions of him moving, in the short story.
: AATROX 9.12 ULT REWORK
I’m...not seeing a revive removal in the 9.12 updates, only a change to the healing increase to be only self healing, not all incoming healing. His free revive was removed a few patches ago, and now requires a takedown, and he’s fine as is from what I’ve heard.
KazKaz (OCE)
: Why isn't Malphite's R being changed in his rework?
I would say that, since it’s literally his only hard CC and best means of getting into a fight as a Vanguard tank, it’s fine. My only issue as a fan of Malphite is his AP ratio on it.
: Literally all of these are conditional. Ahri needs to hit a skillshot and only then can all-in you. LB needs to hit the chain _and_ stay close to you. Rengar needs to stack up and then decide to use a Root (skillshot again), a cleanse or another Q-empowered Attack. Shaco needs a rework, but also requires you to run into unwarded bushes or needs some setup. Nocturne needs to stay close to you. Diana needs to get close to you (or use Ult), also it's short. Quinn has a blind, which is not hard CC. (But a skillshot once again) Eve has to wait some time and then damage you to proc her charm. Ekko needs really good setup and is well telegraphed.
> Quinn has a blind, which is not hard CC Think they’re referring to her E, which is a small displacement, not her Q’s blind
: old akali played perfectly: you pink her shroud and nuke her after she zhonya new akali played perfectly: your adc is zoned by the shroud before getting exploded by 2nd r just watch msi
> you pink her shroud Funny, this stopped working as soon as they made Control Wards and the stealth changes
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=EI Truco,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yBxl0Lko,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:07:05.180+0000) > > alright alright calm down unranked, silver/bronze for the past 4 seasons boy Rank shaming for having an opinion? Not cool, bro.
: > [{quoted}](name=ThatShinyPiplup,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yBxl0Lko,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-06-02T04:05:49.488+0000) > > Okay so for one, a full vgu isn't going to be reverted. They might hard shift an ability, but an ENTIRE vgu just isn't gonna happen. The MOST you could ever wish for is another rework, which is equally as unlikely tbh. Personally, I think new Akali is 100x more fun and interactive than old Akali. I'm sorry you miss your point and click assassin, but she is no longer lol. im pretty sure no one is going to agree that she is 100x more fun, if you meant -100x more fun then sure thats agreeable
> [{quoted}](name=Jesus Is My King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yBxl0Lko,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-06-02T14:44:12.360+0000) > > im pretty sure no one is going to agree that she is 100x more fun, if you meant -100x more fun then sure thats agreeable Then..Hi! I’m no one.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=EI Truco,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yBxl0Lko,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:05:17.402+0000) > > lmao kids and their pathetic little "full vgu can't be reverted' shit. Ive said it before and ill say it again because theres always another idiot out there. So here we go. Well its time to start with vgu reverts if its needed. If the reason Riot won't do it is because doing that is too much work, then shame on them. When companies need to do something but its hard/ take a lot of time and effort they still do it. Thats what makes a good company a good company. Plus, they already know what the old skins look like so its not hard to remake them, they don't have to come up with new ideas. Only have to do that for the kda skins. Makes me furious when people use this won't revert bc of full vgu BS. Should not be a factor whatsoever in the verdict here. The fact of the matter is they just won’t. They’ll try to make this work as long as they can before even really considering that, because it’s not just kit, but models, particles, VO. It’ll just scrap what skill expression she now has and make her the point-and-click pain to fight she always was. To Riot, this kit is still better. It has more skill expression for a player, as evidenced by her use in proplay compared to beforehand. She has more levers of balance. Her W still takes up a bit too much power, but that’s adjustable (and honestly, the only real difference between it and the original is the hole in the middle and the hiding easier under tower). If Riot does anything drastic, they’ll do what they did to Aatrox and shift things around.
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XE4WTas,comment-id=000b0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-01T15:21:38.750+0000) > > Let’s be real, his combo mage identity was becoming a real issue. It’s part of what made him so effective in extremely low ping environments but not as good if you get so much as the slightest lag spike or no coordination. Pros ran rampant with him, meanwhile without the most amazing internet he was hard to play. Yeah, having a learning curve is nice, but his performance was so disparate that the slightest shift in one drastically affected the other. > > His combo mage identity and his wide variance in performance are the big factors of why this is coming...again. Hopefully they nail it better so they can also adjust other champs with similar performance variance. And for that you have to remove everything that his mains liked about him? I dont want Ryze to become another Annie. He was only problematic because of the W and ult mostly. I wouldnt mind so much if they at least brought the Q reset back because that mechanic is what makes Ryze Ryze and his main source of damage. I tested this version on PBE and it sucks ass. You barely do any damage compared to almost every other midlaner if not all. Heck some supports who go full AP do more damage. Im rly hoping the Monday version is waaay better cause this current version on PBE is usless asf and doesnt feel like Ryze at all
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XE4WTas,comment-id=000b00000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-06-02T09:13:11.174+0000) > > And for that you have to remove everything that his mains liked about him? I dont want Ryze to become another Annie. He was only problematic because of the W and ult mostly. I wouldnt mind so much if they at least brought the Q reset back because that mechanic is what makes Ryze Ryze and his main source of damage. I tested this version on PBE and it sucks ass. You barely do any damage compared to almost every other midlaner if not all. Heck some supports who go full AP do more damage. Im rly hoping the Monday version is waaay better cause this current version on PBE is usless asf and doesnt feel like Ryze at all I wouldn’t say that. But this has been a constant thing for Ryze. Sure, there may be an iteration of his combo-mage somewhere that can work, but so far for his past few iterations, it’s been an issue, shown by his strength in pro but how poor he often is in solo, even before he got Realm Warp. Yes, his point-and-click snare has been a problem, but it’s not the only thing that has given him trouble. And the Q reset was one of those “amazing in low ping” mechanics. In regards to damage, well, he is more of a DPS mage, so I wouldn’t expect the same damage as quickly as most other mages. Probably have to see it compared to whatever target they have in mind for him.
: Been testing the malphite changes
Of those three, plus the one in the comments, any could work except mana cost. Unfortunately, it’s a higher cost because of the CD it has and it’s AP poke, in order to keep it from being spammed more often. If I’m right, AP Q poke spam is one of two things that people dislike about fighting AP Malphite...and even without AP it’s can be a pain if more spammable due to the MS steal.
: > [{quoted}](name=Z3Sleeper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XE4WTas,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2019-06-01T12:24:30.392+0000) > > Well you see, your boy Ryze has invaded my top lane as yet again another safe ranged lane bully with self-peel hard CC. > > We true residents of top lane don't like that. > > So he can rot and burn for all I care, as long as he's out of top lane in his current state :) He isnt even a toplaner he is a midlaner. And this shit also kills his midlane. Hard. Its not even about the W (which is what makes him so good on toplane), its mainly cause they removed the Q reset. So his core identity of combo mage is gone as well as the main source of damage
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XE4WTas,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-01T12:50:07.527+0000) > > He isnt even a toplaner he is a midlaner. And this shit also kills his midlane. Hard. Its not even about the W (which is what makes him so good on toplane), its mainly cause they removed the Q reset. So his core identity of combo mage is gone as well as the main source of damage Let’s be real, his combo mage identity was becoming a real issue. It’s part of what made him so effective in extremely low ping environments but not as good if you get so much as the slightest lag spike or no coordination. Pros ran rampant with him, meanwhile without the most amazing internet he was hard to play. Yeah, having a learning curve is nice, but his performance was so disparate that the slightest shift in one drastically affected the other. His combo mage identity and his wide variance in performance are the big factors of why this is coming...again. Hopefully they nail it better so they can also adjust other champs with similar performance variance.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UTAtPceJ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-31T18:38:49.217+0000) > > Yea, remove the OP balancing nightmare and bring back the OP balancing nightmare Yes, the old Akali was tricky to balance, but it wasn't even close to as bad as it is now after her rework, the old Akali was countered by pink wards, the new one just dances around you in shroud without any counterplay and kills everyone. I am 100% for an Akali revert, the rework was a complete failure. Riot should just admit their mistake and cut their losses.
> [{quoted}](name=Basstaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UTAtPceJ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-31T20:07:39.077+0000) > > Yes, the old Akali was tricky to balance, but it wasn't even close to as bad as it is now after her rework, the old Akali was countered by pink wards, Except, her shroud will no longer “counterable”. It’ll be almost the exact same situation, minus what stealth she has under towers. Why? Because her shroud stealth pre-rework was made to be invisibility, like Kha and Vayne, so Control Wards don’t reveal her. > the new one just dances around you in shroud without any counterplay and kills everyone. So..exactly like Old Akali did if she couldn’t just burst you?
: Alright let's do the math. We won't even use proto belt. Level 6 with 50 AP: Empowered Q: (120+30)*1.85=277.5 Fully Charged E: 30+40 = 70 Hemoplague: 150+35 Pool: 80 =612 We'll assume 20% magic resist. So 612*.8= 490 ignite: 170 660= damage and this is assuming no keystone, and that you comboed the entire thing incorrectly like a bronze player. Assuming you actually land things in the correct order it would be: Hemoplague: 150+35 Under the hemoplague debuff multiply everything by 1.1: Pool: 80*1.1=88 Empowered Q: 277.5*1.1= 305.25 Fully charged E: 70*1.1=77 Ignite = 170*1.1=187 total= 657.25 with 20% magic resist: 657.25*.8=525.8 Total damage: 525.8+185= 710.8 Most people have about 1k hp at level 6. So you're right it only kills you from about 70% hp with no counter play. It's a good thing as a champion he's not good at poking people right? RIGHT? RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT? We didn't even get into protobelt btw or magic pen or a keystone like electrocute.
> [{quoted}](name=Morgana Deus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B5N64azd,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-31T19:32:18.694+0000) > > Alright let's do the math. We won't even use proto belt. Level 6 with 50 AP: > > Empowered Q: (120+30)*1.85=277.5 > > Fully Charged E: 30+40 = 70 > > Hemoplague: 150+35 > > Pool: 80 > > =612 > > We'll assume 20% magic resist. So 612*.8= 490 > > ignite: 170 > > 660= damage and this is assuming no keystone, and that you comboed the entire thing incorrectly like a bronze player. Assuming you actually land things in the correct order it would be: > > Hemoplague: 150+35 > > Under the hemoplague debuff multiply everything by 1.1: > > Pool: 80*1.1=88 > > Empowered Q: 277.5*1.1= 305.25 > > Fully charged E: 70*1.1=77 > > Ignite = 170*1.1=187 > > total= 657.25 > > with 20% magic resist: 657.25*.8=525.8 > > Total damage: 525.8+185= 710.8 > > > Most people have about 1k hp at level 6. > > > So you're right it only kills you from about 70% hp with no counter play. It's a good thing as a champion he's not good at poking people right? RIGHT? RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT? > > We didn't even get into protobelt btw or magic pen or a keystone like electrocute. “No counterplay” Buying MR. Buy GW. Using minions to avoid E. Knowing that if he pools to damage you he won’t have it to save himself should he need it. Step back when his Q is empowered. Honestly, GW is the big thing there. He needs sustain from his Q to carry on in extended trades. If you have better extended trades and pick that up, you can start winning those trades more often. Vlad’s strength at the moment is honestly using his range to bully toplane so he can more freely scale into his actual late game. If you know you’re running into a Vlad, you can counterpick, or counterbuild with MR, especially Hexdrinker if AD, and/or GW. Magic pen? Vlad has other priority buys early on. Vlad’s build Phase Rush more for stickiness. Protobelt is another matter. but he’s also at 51.74% winrate and 6.8% pick, not that bad all things considered. But sure, no counterplay. And also not a one shot or even a true one rotation.
: So I read RiotRepwhatever's explanation of how to determine if a champion is overpowered.
Vlad does not one shot with just protobelt. He won’t oneshot while pooled, since he can only continue channeling E if he starts before pooling. He can’t do anything in Zhonya’s except wait for his ult’s pop to try an heal. He’s a late game battlemage, he won’t be one shotting for a while, if at all. his damage is far more sustained damage than burst damage. Hecarim, meanwhile, was killing people left and right early, mid, and, if fed, late. Akali..i have no answer for, beyond she’s strong in the right hands and in proplay, so that’s where most of her issues of being too strong are. Karthus has a lot of power due to his global ult and ease of using it to proc Dark harvest and jungle farming. And Riven has been viewed as an issue by players for a while, less about power, more about frustration. Especially her CDR/Shojin build and how people feel like she has to mess up in order for them to do anything. Maybe read why they’re actually nerfing those champs. They must view Vlad as mostly ok, though his bullying toplane melees is an issue early on.
Saezio (EUNE)
: With how tank items are atm. I'd rather they make malp an ap AOE assassin tbh. Either that or tank items need a rework the scale that AP items got.
> [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W9b85yrJ,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-05-31T17:20:12.414+0000) > > With how tank items are atm. I'd rather they make malp an ap AOE assassin tbh. > Either that or tank items need a rework the scale that AP items got. Defense vs damage definitely needs looked at. but as a hyper-armor tank, even With items the way they are, tank Malphite should be ok in a more AD centric meta.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWnl495T,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-31T15:43:31.473+0000) > > Oh well, maybe lets give her better scaling mid to late so she doesnt single handedly outtrade almost every melee pick in top level 1 with Q passive Q passive (which was why she got nerfed). so 41% w/r is justifiable to what you just said? as i just said. revert her.
> [{quoted}](name=Jesus Is My King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dWnl495T,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-31T16:52:11.294+0000) > > so 41% w/r is justifiable to what you just said? as i just said. revert her. I mean, they’re saying to shift her power to later in game from early (at least since that’s when she’s strongest toplane), which from what it sounds like, is where she struggles. This, in turn, would likely help her.
: he isn't hard to balance Riot just doesn't know what kind of a champion they want him to be Tank? protector? initiator? mage?assassin? sylas is getting the same treatment every nerf changes his play and build patterns so it's more of an identity issue than a balance pain
> [{quoted}](name=Ornndyr2k19,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W9b85yrJ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-05-31T15:30:48.900+0000) > > he isn't hard to balance > Riot just doesn't know what kind of a champion they want him to be > > Tank? protector? initiator? mage?assassin? > sylas is getting the same treatment every nerf changes his play and build patterns > > so it's more of an identity issue than a balance pain This is essentially his issue. When they reworked him, they made him an anti-magic tank. Then they wanted him to still be able to build a mix of AP and tank, and have good waveclear for midlane, which made him oppressive toplane. He got shifted so he had to build more AP in order to deal the damage they wanted him to do. But he was still dealing too much damage and also too tanky, plus a semi global ult, and they just kept hitting him, especially for proplay (same as Shen). His issues mainly started when they built him to be tank at first and shifted him more to AP bruiser. Tangent: This is why I fear Riot will try to salvage AP Malphite alongside Tank Malphite if they give him more kit-work.
: I hate his spirit sword in general, he's a ninja, not someone who fights with floating swords like Irelia, giving him that huge floating sword was the biggest mistake of his worthless rework
> [{quoted}](name=hhaavviikk,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ttLtIKsZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-17T09:46:32.399+0000) > > I hate his spirit sword in general, he's a ninja, not someone who fights with floating swords like Irelia, giving him that huge floating sword was the biggest mistake of his worthless rework Honestly, Q being a Spirit Blade attack would’ve been perfect if it wasn’t for the awkward floating blade and much more thematic than old Q. If I were to adapt the kit as it is, I would: * a middle ground in damage between Q and pass-through Q and remove the floating blade. The only downside would be losing the attack speed and slow from the pass-through, though the AS can maybe remain and and slow added elsewhere. * without the floating sword, have Spirit’s Refuge be either place-able or have Shen as its center. A debuff can be added here for enemies within..maybe a cripple. It being focused around the blade makes for some odd use if you want to taunt but also protect. * iffy, but change the scaling on Stand United. They tried to make it more valuable as a reactive use instead of proactive with the %missing health ratio, but changing the AP ratio to a Health ratio could make it a bit more useful when the target is low, since otherwise you’re relying entirely on the base value to protect. His old kit, while I enjoyed playing him, was far to safe in lane with how he could farm and sustain with Q. Currently, he has moments of vulnerability by needed to get into melee range, a cost of his cross-map power.
ORB1TS (NA)
: this was not how he was supposed to function on release and all it does for him is cause buggy gameplay so..?
> [{quoted}](name=ORB1TS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gmu68FZt,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-05-22T01:58:37.755+0000) > > this was not how he was supposed to function on release and all it does for him is cause buggy gameplay so..? The Shurima Shuffle was not how Azir was supposed to function on release, but was apparently a bug and is now his core. So..
Sherogarth (EUNE)
: So according to LoL Wiki [health value](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Health) is around 2.67 gold per point and [mana value](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Mana) is 1.4 gold per point. Therefore I propose something like this: 1st or 3rd row of Resolve tree: > **Mind Over Matter** 50% of your Bonus Mana is converted into Bonus Health (1 point of mana = 0.5 point of health). 100% for manaless champions. ex. {{item:1027}} 250 mana = 125 mana + 62.5 health or 125 health for manaless. I would not include mana regen here thou as it could result in abuse from {{item:3010}} or {{item:3802}} passives and the only items that have any "standard" mana regen are already support items anyway. *Edit. Lets check out items and see if thats not too impactful: {{item:3194}} : +75 hp // +150 hp for manaless, {{item:3003}} (no stacks) : + 162.5 hp // 325 hp for manaless but no mana to ap passive, {{item:3040}} : +350hp // cant be stacked by manaless (no mana expenditure), {{item:3010}} : +75 hp // +150 hp for manaless, {{item:3110}} : +100 hp // +200 hp for manaless, {{item:3024}} : +62.5 hp // +125 hp for manaless, {{item:3030}} : +150 hp // +300 hp for manaless, {{item:3025}} : +125 hp // +250 hp for manaless, {{item:3100}} : +62.5 hp // +125 hp for manaless, {{item:3285}} : +150 hp // +300 hp for manaless, {{item:3004}} (no stacks) : +62.5 hp // +125 hp for manaless, {{item:3042}} : +250 hp // cant be stacked by manaless (no mana expenditure), {{item:3041}} : +50 hp // +100 hp for manaless, {{item:3800}} : +100 hp // +200 hp for manaless, {{item:3027}} (no stacks): +75 hp // +150 hp for manaless, {{item:3029}} (max stacks) : +100 hp // +200 hp for manaless, {{item:1027}} : +62.5 hp // +125 hp for manaless, {{item:3057}} : +62.5 hp // +125 hp for manaless, {{item:3070}} (no stacks) : +62.5 hp // +125 hp for manaless, {{item:3070}} (max stacks) : +250 hp // cant be stacked by manaless (no mana expenditure), {{item:1082}} : +25 hp // +50 hp for manaless, {{item:3078}} : +62.5 hp // +125 hp for manaless, {{item:3050}} : +62.5 hp // +125 hp for manaless. All in all this doesn't look very abusable. We need to remember that you would need to sacrifice a minor runeslot for this (in Resolve tree on top of that) so imo it's not a bad idea. Hell we could probably even bump it up to 75%/150% for manaless and it still would end up being just an ok rune with all the impact other runes have.
Manaless could use Muramana that way, since it stacks with basic attacks as well. it would just take longer
: > [{quoted}](name=Abandon,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N7HdBzme,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-12T11:31:59.609+0000) > > I'm with you on this one. For once, I'm actually enjoying Bbtrox in his entirety. I love his new playstyle. I love being able to dictate fights, knowing when the opponent's abilities are down and knowing I'm fully capable of turning the heat on when they foolishly expose their weaknesses. Despite this, I'm fairly certain he's going to need more balance changes down the line. If the majority of people are doing well with him, then the intended effect of making him more skillful doesn't seem to be working out right? The biggest issue is that while the mini-rework changed a lot about his kit, the fundamental issue will always be rooted in his main damage ability, his Q. It just does too many things by itself. If it's good then he's good but if it sucks, he sucks. They can prob remove his armor scalings and he might be a little bit easier to play against in the early game, but I doubt too much will change. If they change his health value back he'll be thrown back to before the hotfix where although he had nice healing, he just got repeated abused and shit on. If they change his ult c/d again... I just don't even know how they could justify it. > > What to do. I keep seeing people say "Bbtrox" can you tell me what it means?
> [{quoted}](name=Blades in Exile,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N7HdBzme,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-12T17:50:03.224+0000) > > I keep seeing people say "Bbtrox" can you tell me what it means? People that liked Aatrox’s original kit call his rework Bbtrox, since they feel, reasonably so for mains, he isn’t the same champ. Usage is either to clarify which kit they are referring to, or as a way to say the new kit is inferior since usually A > B
: > [{quoted}](name=Eternal Torment,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JAQrm7VL,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-05-08T20:53:23.177+0000) > > To each their own about the opinion itself.. > > But dude, reading the reasons for your dislike was almost cringe. > > 1. The ending wasn't a cliffhanger. It was actually a closing. The MCU began with Ironman and it ended with Iron man. Steve started his career seeking full circle and love, and ended up getting it in the end. No cliffhangers. On the opposite, much closure. > > 2. Of course they didn't do any hype. Phase 4 can't really be initiated unless you wanted to completely retcon Point 1 I just listed. > > 3. The plot holes, while big, are also nitpicky. Some mysteries like Loki remain unanswered, but you heard the Ancient one's explanation. Changes in the past do not affect their future, they create a separate, new future adding to a reality in the Multi-verse. These Plot holes are almost all closed by the simple and since-1960-canon Multiverse-theory. > > 4. Thanos SEEMED more powerful because he didn't use the Gauntlet to just shove everyone away (Like he did in Wakanda) Instead he had to do the job himself. You got a glimpse not of Thanos with the Gauntlet, but just Thanos. Plus Thanos wasn't inwardly destroyed by guilt and regret over Gamora's death in Endgame because that version of Thanos hadn't killed her yet. so his mind was fully in it too. > > 5. Too much drama and suspense turn the Movie into Twilight. Nobody likes Twilight. Marvel is a, for lack of better words, fuckfest of comedy, action, sci-fi, supernatural and some drama. But your drama is completely skipped over by the fact that they were griefing the entire time over Natasha and even the 6 stones together couldn't bring her back. Natasha is the one MCU character who's actually gone FOR GOOD. I mean, Tony is too, but the 6 stones could bring him back. They can't do that with ol' Nat. > > 6. Honestly, analyzing this post constructively makes me feel like this is personal hate and rant rather than an actual opinion based on content because, as pointed out by the above paragraphs, every single one of your point is nitpicky, willful misinterpretation. > > #I REST MY CASE 1. Obviously this isn't a cliffhanger, I was referring to Infinity War. 2. I don't understand how this relates. 3. The huge plot holes are completely fair game and valid criticism of the film. It's just, most of them don't make a difference to me because I don't take the continuity of the world very seriously. Furthermore they weren't explained by the time travel narrative, they were complicated. 4. That's just stupid. "I have a power glove that gives me absolute control over space, time, and reality. I can turn bullets into bubbles just by thinking it. But I'm much, much stronger without it." 5. lol, OK. You inadvertently bring up a good point here though. When one of them had to sacrifice themselves, they could've really set something good up there. First, Black Widow and Hawk Eye are the least interesting characters in the series, whoop-de-doo, one of them dies. They could've brought up the fact one of them had to die to get the spirit stone way before hand. The avengers could've debated it, drawn straws, foreshadowed Black Widow planning on stopping Hawk Eye and killing herself. She could've had a goodbye with the Hulk. Or even better, how about if the Hulk had to be the one to throw Black Widow off the ledge because he loved her and Hawk Eye couldn't do it because they had never gotten personal. That would've built some drama and suspense, especially if it was built up rather than foisted upon us at the last second. 6. lol, modern debates, right? Talk about how your opponent is evil or has "personal hate." Edit: Syntax of the post.
> [{quoted}](name=AllenPCarlson,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JAQrm7VL,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-05-08T22:29:55.613+0000) > > 4. That's just stupid. "I have a power glove that gives me absolute control over space, time, and reality. I can turn bullets into bubbles just by thinking it. But I'm much, much stronger without it." Actually, it makes a lot of sense when looking at the full picture. Against Iron man, Doctor Strange, and the Guardians, he uses what power he has to. He doesn’t necessarily want to kill them then and there, he just wants the Time Stone from Dr. Strange so he can do what he set out to do. He mainly fights them just cause they’re in the way, and he spares Stark and the rest once he has the stone. The main character he shows the power of the gauntlet against is Strange, who can actually match the power a lot better. On Earth, same scenario. The Avengers are beneath him. He tosses them aside like they’re nothing, and only Wanda is a real match for him. But we see how strong he is normally as well. Stark *only* getting a drop of blood was because of how tough Thanos is, not cause the gauntlet makes him more durable, and he goes toe to toe with the Hulk, without really using the Power Stone, and puts him down. In fact, the main reason he seems stronger in Endgame is, as said elsewhere, he is deadset now on killing the Avengers and the whole universe. There is no going easy, but at the same time, the three Avengers can more easily match him compared to beforehand. Can also see a massive power difference with and without the gauntlet, in that he could not get Captain Marvel away until he used the Power Stone itself. > 5. lol, OK. You inadvertently bring up a good point here though. When one of them had to sacrifice themselves, they could've really set something good up there. First, Black Widow and Hawk Eye are the least interesting characters in the series, whoop-de-doo, one of them dies. They could've brought up the fact one of them had to die to get the spirit stone way before hand. The avengers could've debated it, drawn straws, foreshadowed Black Widow planning on stopping Hawk Eye and killing herself. She could've had a goodbye with the Hulk. Or even better, how about if the Hulk had to be the one to throw Black Widow off the ledge because he loved her and Hawk Eye couldn't do it because they had never gotten personal. That would've built some drama and suspense, especially if it was built up rather than foisted upon us at the last second. And actually, they couldn’t. They just knew Gamora didn’t come back. No know knew why, just that she didn’t. The thing with Vormir was..none of the Avengers would’ve thrown the other off. It had to come down to one diving off, no matter who it was. Hawkeye still works. They clearly did get close at times, as his kids call her their “Aunt” in Age of Ultron, and they have a massive history, especially with Budapest, whatever happened there. They may be the least interesting to you, but there were enough people that enjoyed them that Natasha is getting her own movie (likely a prequel) and Clint is getting a series on Disney+. I personally like their non-superpowered characters among the Avengers. Speaks to their skill as much as Tony’s smarts. But still, *none* of the Avengers would have done it the same way as Thanos. They likely would’ve all fought in order to be the one to throw down the sacrifice card.
: What is the counterplay to the upcoming Malphite?
Same as it’s been? Magic damage, DPS with armor pen, and Conquerer users for counterpicking, avoiding Ult, banshees, Mercurial, armor pen, Cleaver for shred. Q costs 1/4 mana early game, buy early MR, push him in, make it hard for him to farm. Late game, if you have no pen as AD 1) get help from magic damage dealer, flash/dash out of ult. Basically, his counterplay will be more or less the exact same, his MS boost will just be more consistent
: So....Aatrox patch changes, more of a drain tank eh?
At this point, it probably has to do with the nature of the drain tank. Both Swain and Aatrox were reworked, both had nigh undodgeable draintanking unless you were out of range, Aatrox with autos, Swain with..just standing there. Now, both have to work harder to heal as well, but they’re rewarded better when they can pull it off.
: Trees also don't absorb magic. And if they followed the logic of "they're dead so they don't work any more", then they wouldn't have been able to make Galio or any other petricite tools in the first place. We've seen in the lore that small amounts of petricite can only contain a little magic and break if it goes over their threshold. Those small amounts also don't come to life. Plus, they do make repairs to Galio, as stated in the lore. So even the idea that they could make him larger as they repair him works to explain it. Malphite's actually doesn't make any sense. There's no reason man-made armor would increase the mass of an elemental without changing his appearance in any way. Likewise, just pulling chunks from the earth would require some change to his appearance as he grows.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZWsyX44R,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-04T13:33:08.282+0000) > > Trees also don't absorb magic. And if they followed the logic of "they're dead so they don't work any more", then they wouldn't have been able to make Galio or any other petricite tools in the first place. We've seen in the lore that small amounts of petricite can only contain a little magic and break if it goes over their threshold. Those small amounts also don't come to life. Not naturally. Granted, the Petricite was an unnatural occurance, but from how it sounds, it sounds a lot like our petrified wood, which is effectively stone and can’t grow anymore. But I never said they’re dead so they can’t work, I said they have to chop them down to turn them into weapons and armor and tools, which basically kills the growing tree aspect. The petricite used to make Galio won’t grow anymore. True, small amounts don’t come to life. But Galio is also only one example of a large amount coming to life. Riot essentially said with Sylas that Demacia’s walls have been absorbing magic for many years..never once got up to walk. > Plus, they do make repairs to Galio, as stated in the lore. So even the idea that they could make him larger as they repair him works to explain it. > > Malphite's actually doesn't make any sense. There's no reason man-made armor would increase the mass of an elemental without changing his appearance in any way. Likewise, just pulling chunks from the earth would require some change to his appearance as he grows. So, hold on here. You’re now using two completely different approaches to argue why it works for one but not the other. There’s no reason things like Banshee’s Veil, Spirit Visage, Adaptive Helm, or Abyssal Mask would make Galio grow either, unless they were petricite that was added to Galio. That’s the argument you made with Malphite. If buying MR items means adding petricite to Galio to make him grow, buying armor is perfectly acceptable as a means for making Malphite grow.
: > [{quoted}](name=Oleandervine,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZWsyX44R,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-03T21:19:04.740+0000) > > Galio is a fixed size. Malphite is a chunk of rock, magical in nature, and given we have no lore on him that's even remotely current, we don't know what his properties are, so he could very well have the capability to grow in size. Uh..... did you read the stories? Galio is also a chunk of rock, magical in nature. Actually he's a chunk of concrete made out of _trees_, so growing makes even more sense on him. We know for a fact absorbing magic is one of Galio's properties, so growing in size relative to the magic he's able to "absorb" by tanking works perfectly.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZWsyX44R,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-04T10:18:52.934+0000) > > Uh..... did you read the stories? > > Galio is also a chunk of rock, magical in nature. > > Actually he's a chunk of concrete made out of _trees_, so growing makes even more sense on him. We know for a fact absorbing magic is one of Galio's properties, so growing in size relative to the magic he's able to "absorb" by tanking works perfectly. Actually, that makes it make even less sense. Now, I’m not saying they can’t, cause it’d be a nice benefit to tank Galio, but saying because he’s concrete made of trees doesn’t really add to how he would grow. Trees don’t grow once they’re cut, and we’ve seen in lore that petricite doesn’t increase with magic, but becomes more volatile. More magic absorbed by Galio in lore doesn’t make him bigger, just keeps him awake....and possibly makes him a nuke. Whereas Malphite isn’t just a magical chunk of rock, he’s an earth elemental, drawing power directly from the earth under his foot. This means he could theoretically pull up a chunk of earth and attach it to himself. Galio’s model size increasing could be an interesting way to encourage tank builds, since his ability to block for his team would be better, but within lore, I don’t see it.
FireDrizzle (EUNE)
: I should add Malph getting a larger hitbox with armour is a nerf too the tank build because when he doesnt have Q bonus ms he wont be capable of sidestepping anything. With the current revisions he might be op anyway, but perhaps just with AP or bruiser build.
> [{quoted}](name=FireDrizzle,realm=EUNE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WpJn3mE8,comment-id=0060,timestamp=2019-05-04T06:20:31.808+0000) > > I should add Malph getting a larger hitbox with armour is a nerf too the tank build because when he doesnt have Q bonus ms he wont be capable of sidestepping anything. With the current revisions he might be op anyway, but perhaps just with AP or bruiser build. Well, if you’re going tank build, you want to take the skillshots for your team. Might sidestep some, but you’ll want to bodyblock as much as you can so your alloes don’t have to take them.
: Whenever playing Malphite, i always notice a huuuge problem with his mana early up to the end of mid game when going the tank route. It only takes a few Q's ( less than 5 Q's ) in lane to run out of mana and be forced back to base. His base mana pool is too low and his abilities costs are too high compared to it. it's hard to keep up unless i go the ( fun ) ap build with RoA or Luden first. It would be greatly helpful to see some simple lower mana costs to his abilities or an overall increase in his mana pool and regen. I think his mana got nerfed very very long time ago. The game has changed so much over the course of the years and no one from the balance team looked back into readjusting them again, probably because not many people play Malphite anymore. It's nice to see someone from the champions design team finally taking a look at him after so many years. TL;DR Some basic mana buffs could help greatly in the early game. Big Mana problems when going the tank route. Suggested solutions: • Reduce Q range by 25 ( point-click abilities have no counter play and shouldn't be that long, especially not comparing to the 700 range change ) • Reduce Q mana cost to 50 at lvl 1 ( currently 70 in live ) • Reduce ground smash mana cost to 40 at lvl 1 ( currently 50 in live ) • Increase mana pool to 382 at lvl 1 ( +100 from the original ) Either that or add a new Mana reward mechanism, like a new passive to his ground smash e.g. hitting x enemies with ground smash, restore x amount of mana
> [{quoted}](name=ViciousRoZe,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WpJn3mE8,comment-id=0062,timestamp=2019-05-04T07:36:13.660+0000) > > Whenever playing Malphite, i always notice a huuuge problem with his mana early up to the end of mid game when going the tank route. It only takes a few Q's ( less than 5 Q's ) in lane to run out of mana and be forced back to base. His base mana pool is too low and his abilities costs are too high compared to it. it's hard to keep up unless i go the ( fun ) ap build with RoA or Luden first. It would be greatly helpful to see some simple lower mana costs to his abilities or an overall increase in his mana pool and regen. I think his mana got nerfed very very long time ago. The game has changed so much over the course of the years and no one from the balance team looked back into readjusting them again, probably because not many people play Malphite anymore. It's nice to see someone from the champions design team finally taking a look at him after so many years. From what it sounds like, his mana state is primarily because of the Q spam, possibly especially in the AP build. It’s reliable, it has decent damage, and the speed steal can be strong if a gank is coming both for and against Malphite.
: Unpopular opinion, since I'm not a Malphite player: Q spam is unhealthy to toplane, and should absolutely not be buffed, especially the range. This "gating" your are talking about is non sense in 2019 LoL. With corrupting potion, manaflow band, TP and an early glacial shroud, malphite just can't get OOM. I just don't understand how malphite could have a "bad match-up" on the top lane, when you can just out poke them from a safe range. IMO, the Q should totally be reworked, not only in order to feel good to the player using it (making it more visually appealing is a poor choice seriously), but also to let his opponent have way to play around the Q, that isn't "Buy MR and potions, and out-sustain his mana with your HP"
> [{quoted}](name=Superlagman,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WpJn3mE8,comment-id=0064,timestamp=2019-05-04T08:43:23.161+0000) > > Unpopular opinion, since I'm not a Malphite player: Q spam is unhealthy to toplane, and should absolutely not be buffed, especially the range. > This "gating" your are talking about is non sense in 2019 LoL. With corrupting potion, manaflow band, TP and an early glacial shroud, malphite just can't get OOM. > I just don't understand how malphite could have a "bad match-up" on the top lane, when you can just out poke them from a safe range. > IMO, the Q should totally be reworked, not only in order to feel good to the player using it (making it more visually appealing is a poor choice seriously), but also to let his opponent have way to play around the Q, that isn't "Buy MR and potions, and out-sustain his mana with your HP" Since you say you aren’t a Malphite player..pointing out that a single Q early game takes 1/4 of his level 1 mana pool. Yes, Manaflow and Glacial shroud help a bit, but one needs stacked up and the other costs gold. If Malphite is Q spamming early, he’ll go OOM quick, allowing his opponent to punish him and push him in. If he backs and TPs, you have a summoner advantage. Granted, I almost never Q max or spam on Malphite, and I despise the AP build. I’d rather hold onto my mana to clear first, and then start Q poking after.
: Reasonable buffs to make tanks viable again without breaking them
So..really insane buffs, mostly to AP ratios, that’ll absolutely break the champs in question. Cool. Only one that sounds interesting from scrolling through is Alistar’s heal, and even then..could still be too much.
: Gonna post my thoughts as someone whose generic jungler has been malphite for many years. **Q Thoughts: ** The Q cast time increase is going to hurt. It already feels bad to be charging in to gank someone and stop to cast your slow, to have the stop increased will make him feel more clunky, combined with people ducking into FOW as it gets cast and cancelling it, opening that window up is going to be annoying. The Loss of the movement speed steal removes one of my personal favorite bits of mini strategy in the game. When ganking bot, do you use it on the ADC or the Sup, does one of them have boots? Does one of them have a movespeed buff up at that moment? Do I just want to leverage the slow? Making it a flat slow/speedup removes that interaction and strategy. Is it a teamfight and they have an ulting Yi? Make him pay and zoom around yourself! Reducing the amount of time the speed buff lasts will also make it harder to stick to opponents, since his other abilities don't grant him target access or stickyness (no tenacity increases, no other speed buffs, no other slows, ONLY the ult) reducing the amount of time he goes fast will just make it harder for him to get to people. **W thoughts:** Please don't change the name! I personally happen to love it The loss of the armor boost (the 3x one) removed an interesting bit of strategy. Similar to how Garen can use an ability to increase his tankyness, being able to temporarily make yourself vastly more defensive was a huge plus in certain matchups. Also curious how this will effect the jungle clear as for the duration you took less damage from monsters and I'm a little afraid he'll eat a lot more from camps especially during his early clears. I personally don't want him to be a burst champ, he's a tanky and I think as a Living Mountain as you have emphasized, he should be focused around being tanky, not doing high damage. Removing a tanky tool makes me frustrated, as it leads me to have one less actually interesting tank interaction in the game. **Other thoughts** Malphite's a mountain, he doesn't need to throw a quick stone, I'd take a longer travel time and a larger slow personally. He's a mountain, I'll take a tankyness increase over a burst/damage leveling any time. HE'S a MOUNTAIN, when he builds armor it's like making it harder for people to climb over him, so they should take more damage from his abilities OVER TIME, not in a burst. HE'S a mountain, he wears people down, and then crushes them in an avalanche (unstoppable force), not just through a mountain at them. I appreciate that you are looking at him, and I'm glad you are taking feedback before committing the changes.
Personal opinion, I love Thunderclap more than Brutal Strikes, especially since the animation is similar to a Hulk thunderclap. As for the x3 armor..an argument I have is it’s temporary and you have no real control over it. Comparing to Garen, who’s bonus resists are permanent and he has some skill expression and control of his W’s damage reduction, doesn’t quite fit. The x3 armor is closer to Sejuani’s passive, a hyper defense buff for those initial engages, but once it goes down it’s gone for the fight. If I were to adjust anything else there with the x3 armor gone, it’d be a way to refresh his passive in-combat.
: Malphite changes coming to PBE
Gahh! I’m loving how the passive and W changes look! Might have to see if I still have PBE access and try it editing here: just a curious thought, one I’ve been wondering about for some time.. with the x3 armor going away and some of the other adjustments, is there any room in his kit for a way to refresh his passive shield in the middle of combat? Or do you guys think it’s better to keep for at the start of fights and that’s it?
: Some reasonable buffs to make Ornn viable without breaking him (Level 7 Ornn)
Yeah..no. First, 48-50% across the board..for a tank in solo, is fine. https://m.u.gg/lol/champions/ornn/build/ Those buffs would push him way over the edge, since you’re giving to him but taking nothing away. 30% armor and mr would be the same as Malphite gets just in armor, and Ornn brings a lot more to the table. Giving him a Shield and Unstoppable, without addressing the damage they left on Bellows Breath, would make him way too strong in lane. 100% AP ult..I’d rather not have another round of full AP Malphite. Infinite upgrades..honestly meh. He has three main masterworks items he builds, Frozen Fist, Forgefire Cape, and Infernal Mask. So you’d first have to make at least three more, or accept that he’d start building duplicate or less efficient items. But he needs the passives of other tank items as well, so, I’m honestly gonna say a no on this. These would absolutely break him. Signed, M6 Ornn.
nelogis (EUW)
: Game affecting Warwick bugs that would be really cool if they finally got fixed
I haven’t experienced any of these..at least not without realizing it was happening. But, given the reaction, I clearly haven’t paid close enough attention. Hopefully they get looked at
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000100000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-05-03T16:26:03.314+0000) > > Hes the best example, because what do you think would be played into tanks that have literally 0 trading potential? Even nasus would laugh all over these tanks. He both gets free kills, and free Q stacks. If you cant trade because you have no damage, you physically arent allowed to even play league of legends. It’s important to note...tank player don’t want 0 damage, they mainly don’t want *more* damage. Riot shuffling them to deal more damage is what’s seen as an issue, when their damage has been acceptable and workable for the most part. You keep talking as if tanks would deal 0 damage to champs, when that’s not what anyone has said..ever.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000010000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-03T17:01:46.086+0000) > > The problem is you cannot get more utility to balance them, given utility is disproportionately better for comp than it is the entire playerbase. Well you can. What’s the problem with having them better in teamplay? No one has ever really answered that. This is a team game, and the higher skill levels, which is a big part of where tanks shine, is where the balance should be focused..
Pika Fox (NA)
: Hes the best example, because what do you think would be played into tanks that have literally 0 trading potential? Even nasus would laugh all over these tanks. He both gets free kills, and free Q stacks. If you cant trade because you have no damage, you physically arent allowed to even play league of legends.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000100000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-05-03T16:26:03.314+0000) > > Hes the best example, because what do you think would be played into tanks that have literally 0 trading potential? Even nasus would laugh all over these tanks. He both gets free kills, and free Q stacks. If you cant trade because you have no damage, you physically arent allowed to even play league of legends. It’s important to note...tank player don’t want 0 damage, they mainly don’t want *more* damage. Riot shuffling them to deal more damage is what’s seen as an issue, when their damage has been acceptable and workable for the most part. You keep talking as if tanks would deal 0 damage to champs, when that’s not what anyone has said..ever.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tremaursen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEtE3Kkl,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-05-03T08:05:50.201+0000) > > remember one Rioter whie defending this position tried to argue that Darth Vader was not truly, only and objectively evil. Oh sweet merciful fuck I remember that thread. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/0IEctYqf-riot-writers-what-do-you-have-against-the-usual-good-guys?comment=000100030000 Kill 333x more people than Hitler? Not evil, apparently.
> [{quoted}](name=Karunamon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEtE3Kkl,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-05-03T14:44:04.659+0000) > > Oh sweet merciful fuck I remember that thread. > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/0IEctYqf-riot-writers-what-do-you-have-against-the-usual-good-guys?comment=000100030000 > > Kill 333x more people than Hitler? Not evil, apparently. To be fair, that question might’ve been worded poorly. From what I understood, yes, Vader is evil, sympathetic, but evil, but he at one point considered himself a hero despite his evil actions. From a certain point of view, he thought he was doing the right thing. Still evil. Writers in general, not just Riot, lately seem to be pulling away from a number of characters being evil just for the sake of being evil. We don’t seem to get as many Joker, Brainiac, or original Thanos level of villains lately. MCU Thanos was clearly twisted and evil, but he thought he was doing the right thing. Doesn’t make his actions any better, but it shows how extreme characters can go with a worldview, and they seem to more often become more popular villains outside of rare instances.
Pika Fox (NA)
: I didnt forget anything. If you have no early trading potential into someone like darius, youre just not going to be in exp range if they know how to hold and last hit properly, as well as zone. Especially if they have a better early jungler.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-05-03T15:53:09.918+0000) > > I didnt forget anything. If you have no early trading potential into someone like darius, youre just not going to be in exp range if they know how to hold and last hit properly, as well as zone. Especially if they have a better early jungler. A lot of champs don’t have great early trading potential against Darius. He’s a lane bully, so he’s stronger early, and often chews up melees. Not your best example. Edit: at least if they don’t have the mobility to really dodge Q or E. A number of tanks already suffer into him, at least.
: How is it any different? If the tanks have defensive tools good enough to enable them to farm past a aggressor using conqueror what is the difference from a mage sitting far back farming with abilities to avoid the enemy laner be they another mage or an assassin? Ornn in the start is actually a great example of this, he´d go near his enemy give himself a shield with his W while doing a heap of current health damage followed up a brittle attack to disrupt tradeback. He was also unstoppable so you couldnt stop his W, you´d lose the trade because that 2 hit wonder did a lot of damage.' His enemies basically had no way to interact with him, so he ended up being quite dominant in a number of lanes just because of that. I remember that even reworked Shen, present Cho and maokai have all been guilty of either denying lane interaction by farming with abilities or being oppressive in lane because their CC chain combo´s did too much damage. All these are bad, tanks should not be able to peel off any enemy and farm into a point where they are stronger by default, they shouldnt be outright spanking their enemy in a 1v1 nor should they leave their enemy with no real options. So i much prefer the current situation where tanks actually have damage but have less reliable/lasting CC and need items to truly become the moving castle walls they can be. Sejuani and Leona are among the best ones as i see it.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-02T18:40:26.689+0000) > > How is it any different? > > If the tanks have defensive tools good enough to enable them to farm past a aggressor using conqueror what is the difference from a mage sitting far back farming with abilities to avoid the enemy laner be they another mage or an assassin? One, because the tank is still in range to fight. Plus, *if* they are given more defensive tools, they don’t have to be super strong early, or scale off something that takes a building up. They can be tuned in ways that allow the aggressor to still come out decently. Contrary to the mage, it’s still a melee tank. Yeah they have some ranged abilities, but they’ll go empty their mana if they spam those. > Ornn in the start is actually a great example of this, he´d go near his enemy give himself a shield with his W while doing a heap of current health damage followed up a brittle attack to disrupt tradeback. > > He was also unstoppable so you couldnt stop his W, you´d lose the trade because that 2 hit wonder did a lot of damage.' > > His enemies basically had no way to interact with him, so he ended up being quite dominant in a number of lanes just because of that. Really? Cause I played Ornn and he wasn’t *that* strong in lane. Yeah, his Bellows Breath into Brittle could hurt, coupled with the shield, but that could’ve easily been correct by toning down the percentage of Brittle, or shifting his shield like they did to Urgot, if it was an issue. His W was current health. It’s hurt early, and taper off. Another novel idea was simply move out of the breath if they had mobility or walk past him if close enough, since the total % was broken down into 5 ticks and only the last one applied Brittle. He was actually called by many as weaker because his kit was unreliable by design for some time. Seeing his stats up until end of season 7, doesn’t seem like he was an actual issue to many players. > I remember that even reworked Shen, present Cho and maokai have all been guilty of either denying lane interaction by farming with abilities or being oppressive in lane because their CC chain combo´s did too much damage. See above. If those champs, minus Shen cause energy regen, are farming with abilities, they’re draining their own mana pools, which should be better for the fight because they likely still have resources to fight and farm longer. > All these are bad, tanks should not be able to peel off any enemy and farm into a point where they are stronger by default, they shouldnt be outright spanking their enemy in a 1v1 nor should they leave their enemy with no real options. I agree, tanks shouldn’t outright win 1v1 against a fighter. I also think that a tank that’s forced to farm near turret is a tank that’s not in a position to match a fighter’s roam if they so choose. There’s drawbacks to that style as well as benefits. > So i much prefer the current situation where tanks actually have damage but have less reliable/lasting CC and need items to truly become the moving castle walls they can be. > > Sejuani and Leona are among the best ones as i see it. See, that’s funny cause Leona has really strong lockdown and lower damage compared to other tanks. I prefer less damage and power survivability and utility. I loved Ornn early on because of that. I can’t stand what they turned him into. I enjoy Maokai for what he brings to teamfights and how he survives and draws the attention. But that’s me. Items to be durable are hit and miss. It should be a mix of both, but items for more lasting and consistent defensive power. Fall behind as an Amumu or a Maokai or similar style tank and see how painful it is to do anything because you can’t get your items, so they need some kind of defensive power in their kits.
Moody P (NA)
: ? every tank whine OP complains about how you can't win lane as maokai
> [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2019-05-02T18:13:52.996+0000) > > ? every tank whine OP complains about how you can't win lane as maokai In my defense...I did say Maybe. I know i’m willing to sacrifice winning lane on my own if I have better teamfight power. My main goal is often surviving as a tank.
: So what you are asking for is to let tanks have such good waveclear that they can basically avoid interaction with their opponent until teamfights start? The very same thing a entire heap of mages have gotten nerfed for? What promoted a rework of their mana items? Yeah no.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-02T16:50:17.569+0000) > > So what you are asking for is to let tanks have such good waveclear that they can basically avoid interaction with their opponent until teamfights start? > > The very same thing a entire heap of mages have gotten nerfed for? What promoted a rework of their mana items? > > > Yeah no. Big difference, melee tanks compared to ranged mages. Don’t forget it was also mainly mana regen that was taken away. They still get lots of mana. Tanks don’t really have that luxury, and being melee still gives openings for their opponent to do something. However, I’m mostly going against Pika Fox. I’m a proponent of tanks having just enough damage to manage in lane, but still have to concede to the enemy in terms of lane power, because they have better team power and should have better survivability. Most complaints about tanks often come because of them outdamaging fighter opponents and similar claims, after all. Edit for an example: I like to play Ornn. Enjoyed him massively early on. He had decent farming, lower damage outside W and Brittle, but being melee and still needing to auto to farm, was still vulnerable to getting into bad trades. On the opposite side, I do not approve of things like Shen’s old ranged Q farming.
LEAFERA (EUNE)
: Ornn passive should work on every item.
I mean, I wouldn’t complain about a Masterwork MR item for him beyond Abyssal/Infernal Mask...but that might be the only thing I add.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Enemy is level 4 youre level 1, youre half health theyre full health. Wave finally crashes to your tower aaaaand youre being dived 2v1 by their jungler and top aaaand youre dead. Thats what happens when you have literal 0 early pressure via damage. Even soraka is one of the biggest early game bullies in all of LoL, and shes the staple healer class.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-02T14:59:53.341+0000) > > Enemy is level 4 youre level 1, youre half health theyre full health. Wave finally crashes to your tower aaaaand youre being dived 2v1 by their jungler and top aaaand youre dead. > > Thats what happens when you have literal 0 early pressure via damage. Even soraka is one of the biggest early game bullies in all of LoL, and shes the staple healer class. Wow, what an extreme example. Even sitting just within exp range you wouldn’t get that big of a discrepancy in levels. Especially since if the tank has lesser damage, they can be compensated with some defensive tools to work better and still get their CS. Funny you mention Soraka being a bully, when Riot literally just made adjustments to her to reduce her currently “bullying” and putting more value into her Q rejuv, to empower to carry to bully. But, we’ve carried this conversation for two threads, and I’m tired of making 0 ground. So, bye.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Didnt say people loved assassin meta, just that people liked it more than literal worst meta in LoL history.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=00020000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-02T14:48:00.816+0000) > > Didnt say people loved assassin meta, just that people liked it more than literal worst meta in LoL history. You mean Ardent Meta?
Pika Fox (NA)
: You cant hurt a tank either while CCd, so thats a moot point. While not CCd you have no reason to target the tank if the tank has no continuous threat. The threat of more CC in 6 seconds is not real threat, given the fight likely wont last that long. If the tank cant kill, theres exactly 0 reason to target them if you can target literally anyone else.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=000b000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-02T14:31:42.909+0000) > > You cant hurt a tank either while CCd, so thats a moot point. While not CCd you have no reason to target the tank if the tank has no continuous threat. The threat of more CC in 6 seconds is not real threat, given the fight likely wont last that long. If the tank cant kill, theres exactly 0 reason to target them if you can target literally anyone else. No, but the CC stops you from attacking, and that threat can zone you away from the carries if the tank hasn’t used all their CC yet. There’s a reason you don’t throw all your CC at the same target at the same time. Carries get zoned back due to the threat of not being able to do anything, assassin can flank/jump on them. Or they step too close and then you lock them up. There’s a reason Braum’s passive gives a lot of early kill pressure, because while he doesn’t deal much, that stun can mean a lot.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Doesnt matter what you want, thats simply not an option. Theres no gameplay in that. The opponent and you dont get to play league for 30 minutes is all that means, assuming they dont just hard kick your ass and you get literal 0 CS because you have 0 threat.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-02T14:11:46.297+0000) > > Doesnt matter what you want, thats simply not an option. Theres no gameplay in that. The opponent and you dont get to play league for 30 minutes is all that means, assuming they dont just hard kick your ass and you get literal 0 CS because you have 0 threat. There’s more to league than trading with your opponent. If you’re in a bad matchup, you play back and just farm anyway until you get an opening. That’s smart play. Farming is a core part of the game just as much as, if not moreso than, trades in lane. Farming is gameplay.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Thats some bronze level reasoning. Tank has high ehp and no damage. Rest of team has low ehp and damage. Guess what youre going to kill first? The thing you can actually kill in a reasonable amount of time to lower the real threat to you; DAMAGE. Ding ding ding. Doesnt matter how much the tank locks you down if the damage is dead. And if the tank cant threaten the backlines lives, you have no reason to devote any resources to them over literally anyone else.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w4V8o1HH,comment-id=000b0000000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-02T13:51:50.110+0000) > > Thats some bronze level reasoning. > > Tank has high ehp and no damage. Rest of team has low ehp and damage. Guess what youre going to kill first? The thing you can actually kill in a reasonable amount of time to lower the real threat to you; DAMAGE. Ding ding ding. Doesnt matter how much the tank locks you down if the damage is dead. And if the tank cant threaten the backlines lives, you have no reason to devote any resources to them over literally anyone else. Saying Low elo only values damage, and that tanks should be more focused on utility, is apparently bronze level reasoning, huh. Note, I *never* said tanks should have 0 damage. I have always said they need just enough to get through laning. Funny though, because you can’t kill the enemy damage dealers if you can’t deal damage cause you’re getting disrupted and zoned off by the tank. Any break in your damage is enough to tip the scales of a fight, and is more than enough reason to shift focus..especially if you can’t get to their backline because of the tank in your face knocking you around.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Ornn didnt get nerfed because of damage buffs. Youre conflating correlation with causation. He got nerfed because comp started picking him up for his team CC potential. His W being his shield didnt help things, but that wasnt the end all be all. That was just his laning phase tool, which he needed damage on to function in lane, given if you have no laning damage you physically cannot play the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-05-02T14:01:48.043+0000) > > Ornn didnt get nerfed because of damage buffs. Youre conflating correlation with causation. He got nerfed because comp started picking him up for his team CC potential. His W being his shield didnt help things, but that wasnt the end all be all. That was just his laning phase tool, which he needed damage on to function in lane, given if you have no laning damage you physically cannot play the game. What happened: Ornn released, was weak. Ornn got smaller buffs to make him a bit smoother. Ornn got a damage buff on W. Pros picked him up season 8 and his winrate and banrate skyrocketed in solo as well, because he was putting out so much more damage. Tanks will always be picked by pros for CC and teamfghting, Ornn was still picked this past split for it. That’s not a bad thing, getting picked for what you’re meant to do. The problem was his solo queue performance, because he just outdamaged in lane and transitioned better into teamfight stages.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Then theres no gameplay, given the opponent cant kill you and you cant kill them. Also means the opponent gets a free lane and you get nothing.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=pIl66a3m,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-05-02T13:44:34.287+0000) > > Then theres no gameplay, give. The opponent cant kill you and you cant kill them. Also means the opponent gets a free lane and you get nothing. Maybe, just maybe, tank players don’t want lane power. We want durability and team power.
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