Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Jmman,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EVZrr9jA,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-02-26T14:35:01.535+0000) > > (Rod of summoning) {{item:3010}} {{item:3145}} {{item:3105}} 40ap, 300 hp/mana, 30 mr/ac. Passive killing a minion/monster heals for 3% of max hp over 3 secs. Killing a players heals for 15% over 3 secs. > active - shoots a blitz arm at enemy and pulls him to you. Range is determined by AP. 0 to 150 = short range, 150 to 300=medium range, 350+ = long range > > These will scale up or have ramp up times. This should keep them out of the hands of burst mages and made my DoT and bruisers different item sets. > > And they will need to be tried to see if they are op or too weak or not getting the desired champs to build them. Hell no. I don't want to see Brand and Zyra supports with access to a Blitzcrank hook. > Passive killing a minion/monster heals for 3% of max hp over 3 secs. Killing a players heals for 15% over 3 secs. Lmao no that's disgustingly broken.
Sure the hook would be bad and fun.... Might have to put our spells on CD for 2 secs after the pull or something. The healing wouldn't be too bad, just the regen would not stack. So it would just refresh the Hot. It wouldn't be broken just give sustain to AP bruisers. At 2000 hp it would only be 20 healing a sec for a total of 60 hp..... Maybe change it to Large minions/monsters or something if that is still too much. Besides the Hook thing, the idea on how to create something and keep it away from burst is solid. You would just have to tweak the numbers a little. A brand will pull you in then instantly die. Pike, thresh, and blitz have CC on demand to follow the hook. Like a said. Just an idea but you will have to tweak any numbers to find a happy spot.
: Unpopular Opinion: Support is fun
I Don't believe that is the issue. I love support. However, the problem I have this: You have a good lane going on. You and the adc are 1/0/1. Great match up going on bot. Mid game comes and you get deleted instantly by they 4 kill top mid or jungle. You can't stop them from rick rolling over your adc no matter the CC you use. Or you save the adc but you are easy bait the whole rest of the game. You can't get close you anyone or anything because you instantly die to everyone event the support because you are soo under leveled and gold starved. Or you are losing just the little bit bot lane. They rest of the game you are running for your life because you are under leveled and gold starved. You win bot lane bad.... however top/mid/jungle has 6 kills and stomps the whole team out. I only feel like you have any presence if you get your adc 20 kills.... and event then they can still be instant zerged if they miss step. Its hard to play under leveled and behind. I'm not saying assassins and bruiser are op. But right now they can delete adc/support soo quickly it doesn't allow room for active league of legends game play. However, the other rolls can make a difference in the game due to the gold and levels they have. ADC can only carry if the TEAM plays peels for them (unless a HUGE kill advantage)..... that never happens in solo que.
: AP Bruiser Items: A Suggestion
I Think part are the issue is that they are gated by Mana. 2nd issue is AD bruiser have sustain items. {{item:3091}} changed to 60 ap, 10 CD, 200hp attack and spell damage lower MR by 4% stacking 6 times. build path is {{item:3916}} {{item:3108}} + gold {{item:3170}} put in the game New item (Deaths embrace) 50ap, 400hp, Damaging an enemy with a spells you gain 4% spell vamp. This can stack 5 times. last for x secs. FUN ITEM (Rod of summoning) {{item:3010}} {{item:3145}} {{item:3105}} 40ap, 300 hp/mana, 30 mr/ac. Passive killing a minion/monster heals for 3% of max hp over 3 secs. Killing a players heals for 15% over 3 secs. active - shoots a blitz arm at enemy and pulls him to you. Range is determined by AP. 0 to 150 = short range, 150 to 300=medium range, 350+ = long range These will scale up or have ramp up times. This should keep them out of the hands of burst mages and made my DoT and bruisers different item sets. And they will need to be tried to see if they are op or too weak or not getting the desired champs to build them.
: Question for Zilean Mains concerning resolve tree.
I do this with fiddle sometimes. {{item:3116}} {{item:3504}}. But support doesn't get enough gold to get to play with builds. Unless they are really winning then it doesn't matter what you build. Really wish support got more gold and could actually build cool things.
: While your argument for these supports do make sense, they all have massive drawbacks that makes them the support that ADC's hate {{champion:9}} i dont have a problem with, he is similar to supports like nami and janna (though more offensive) {{champion:107}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:103}} are the reason people complain so much, all of these rely on snowballing and, as a support with limited gold, wont. Sure they may win a 2v2 at level 6, but thats it. If the game is any later than 20 minutes these become dead weight OR They play as a full assassin, fighting the ADC for farm and when fights do happen, "jumps at the adc", which likely means the death of your ADC and all kills going to the "support". Which as i said, is the same problem as support mages {{champion:33}} {{champion:77}} have the same issue,their kit just isnt designed for a support. {{champion:33}} aside from his small taunt, doesn't provide much help for the carry, as he isnt enough of a threat to the ADC, whereas someone like {{champion:89}} or {{champion:12}} have stronger engages and cc, letting them stick to a carry more, entirely outclassing {{champion:33}} As for {{champion:77}} any peel support should be able to stop him from reaching a carry and he would be an easy target due to him being entirely melee
{{champion:12}} when he goes to headbutt smash. If you crow you will silence the smash and he will only get the headbutt off. Its mild to hard to land. But funny. Once you get it down,(save the crow instead of poking) you can cancel his early game and late game make him look dumb and get a free kill. {{champion:89}} this one is a lot harder. when she drives on the adc I run to fear, crow, drain the adc. I can kill or zone them out from the whole fight. But the adc has to have some skills to not get minion agro and we can win the trade a lot. After 6 you have to let them push and ult the adc. the reason to let them push is because if it goes bad you are close to your turret. This also give less room for the jungle to gank. Plus I never argued for anyone but fiddle. I loving playing fiddle with hyper carries or crit adcs. You can control the waves to let them get easy farm. But what do I know I just started rank with a 75% win rate on fiddle and 100% win rate on brand. Just point out the incorrect assume fiddle was a bad support(he is picked in pros in Asian counties). Please quote me where I talked about anyone but fiddle.
: I feel like everyone who thinks this didn't play back in season 3. Gold for supports was practically none existent back then and it is so much better now. I think what I see supports average in gold is fine currently.
Well that is partly true about the past. See in the past the gold income of EVERYONE was less. But now if the gold income from support went up 50% and everyone one else got an 100% increase you are still farther behind. I have played since season one. And every season the gap between support gold and the rest has gotten worst since the GP5 items was removed. This gold nerf mostly hit mages. Mages have all been funneled into bot but a choice few. (not because they want to play there) That is the issue I have. They whole strat still lost. Its only good in "certain" situations with a select few champs. It would not last in the LCS because they plan picks. it would only work as a counter pick.
Lapis (OCE)
: Is there a trick to getting people to be okay with offmeta picks?
I have 1.3 millions pts on fiddle and a 75% win rate in ranked on him... Instant ban even though I selected him. They always says.... oh sorry didn't see or I selected random. They need to make it so you can't ban selected champs or something. so I feel your pain.
Meddler (NA)
: No major changes currently planned. At some point we will want to clean up some of the inappropriately punishing cases the band aid fix on the items are creating. For now at least we're prioritizing work on bounties instead, will then reassess whether support items or something else is most important to focus on after bounty work's done.
As a fiddle support this change 100% impacted my gold. By a good amount. I understand why, kind of. But didn't that strat lose? Plus it is also punishable. Anyways, at the start of the game I don't get gold if I catch someone going too far. I get punished by losing charges. Meaning I lose gold. SO no I shouldn't punish them for being afk or running into the river at the start. Zone back people while your team is doing an objective.... too go to far no gold for you. ADC back and want to get some procs on the turret for gold... nope. There are tons of time I'm like wow I forgot I don't get gold for that anymore... Then I really think about it and other strats you have let play out. Funneling, etc. But this seems like a counter picking certain champs strat. INSTANTLY NERFED. And you kicked supports down on the way too. Support sucks because you get the least amount of gold and always behind. Let me tell you how fun this is in a DAMAGE META. Why make it worst without thinking or seeing if you really needed to do this. I would love to see the data to make this change while other things "more data is needed". There is a reason support is least like....this change is the prime example. They aren't took in consideration with changes. Meaning you either destroy or break them. edit. Bounty wouldn't be needed if you just lowered the gold for killing people.
: > Burst mages are going to buy the same items. If they do buy the bruisers / Damage over time items then their damage will go down because of the trade off of defense items. Base damages are what make the difference between a Burst mage and a bruiser. They still have a higher percentage of health needed to kill, without the need for additional damage. Add in the fact, that OP wants a item like Bramblevest or Exe Calling, you can easily sit on it without finishing it, meaning you can rush damage anyways. And nice, the ol' "call someone bias" argument. Before Kayn, I maged as many mages as I can. Don't bring that shit at me.
Really because I thought they had higher base damage on spell because they didn't have Melee attacks that AP got added to like AD. See this is what I'm talking about. AP users have really slow and bad Auto attacks. Therefore they need the higher base damage to just farm or trade. AD gets attack damage on abilities and Autos. AP just adds to spells. Along comes an AD users and says "LOOK HOW HIGH THOSE BASE DAMAGE ARE." Me a fiddle main with low base damage spells because of DoT says "that isn't the whole story your cherry picky bias things." You then go on to talk like a big man because facts have no place to your "feelings" Funny you switched from mages to an AD..... because AD is stronger with more options. Thank you for proving my assessment correct. I would love to lower the base damage on AP spell and then add that AD DOESN'T add to base auto attacks. That seems fair going by your logic. Then we can all be balanced but for items.
Ryushiin (NA)
: As a support main what do I do if I have to work with an incompetent adc?
Play a mage support. This gives you a lot of options. Good adc = buy supportive items. Zone enemies if able to give easy farming to adc. Late game peel and use spells defensively Average adc = ap / supportive items. still peel and try to zone. Just have extra damage to help the adc during laning phase. Late game peel / lead the damage charts. (they won't target you) Bad adc = Hold my beer while I carry. Let him die no sense you in dieing too. Get as much farm as you can. Late game ignore adc unless they have seems to get a clue. You are now a fill in because you can still bring damage and CC to the team fight. Use the ADC as "operation human shield" to give you time to kill the other adc. This is your goal. If you can swap the other adc for you, your team is 100% better off and you did the best with the cards you were dealt. People hate mages however they give options. {{champion:53}} {{champion:555}} have play styles where you can carry or leave the adc to still impact and win the game. I get about 1 out of every 4 adcs that has a clue on how to play. Nothing is worst than wasting 30 mins on a game where an adc has 100 pts on a champ. Can't last hit, trade, or watch the mini map. They get soo focused on CSing they miss everything even the CS.
Antenora (EUW)
: As an ADC main myself... As long as you're picking something that works with your ADC/Team then I don't care what you play. Picking {{champion:21}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:17}} when you have a hypercarry ADC like {{champion:67}} {{champion:29}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:145}} is stupid and is not helping your team at all. Picking passive supports like Janna, Soraka when you have a Draven, Lucian, MF as your ADC seems pointless also.
So {{champion:9}} with {{item:3116}} that can fear and carry and slow a whole team with a crow protecting the hyper Carry so he can solo the whole team is bad??? {{champion:107}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:103}} jumps at the adc…. fear then slowed. {{champion:33}} crow or fear stops the ball... {{champion:77}} run at the adc…. fear / tracker beams slow
: > A majority of mages tend to be burst. It's almost like I said this. We play a game where any item can be used by anyone, save for like, 3 items. That means any item put in place for AP bruisers, can be equally capable of being used by the very folk who probably shouldn't have it that early. Said AP bruisers though, tend to have more defense anyways, Morde and his Shield, Sylas with his Shield and healing, Swain and his healing, Diana and her shield (If we count her *intended* design.) I can flip your words around on you, by the way. That's like saying we should buff all AP Casters because of the few AP Bruisers we have.
I don't understand the bad thinking. Burst mages are going to buy the same items. If they do buy the bruisers / Damage over time items then their damage will go down because of the trade off of defense items. Why don't ADCs build bruiser items. Its the same thing. Just now all the brusiers / sustain mages have to build burst only. This puts champs in a too strong or too weak slot. You are just bias and can't see AP has the same subclasses and general types of champs like AD. However, AP has been all pigeon holed into one type of item group. How would you feel about {{champion:122}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:58}} could only buy ADC items. You would be like all AD is just burst assassins. There is not difference all AD burst only. NO we don't need more items. Look at {{champion:54}} he is either tanky and has no damage or burst mage zergs a one and done. There is not really a in-between. People are not asking for more powerful items. They was power neutral items that cater and their class instead of "making" them a burst mage.
: ~~I'm not sure if this is 100% a meme or not~~. But like, they don't have Viegar's effective range. All of 'em still need to be in melee to do their job, none of them can kill you from 700+ range away.
> [{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jT6E5KXK,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-02-19T06:46:10.358+0000) > > I'm sure this is 100% a meme But like Zed, Yasuo, Ekko, Kat, Sylas can dash/tp/jump and kill you from 700+ range away. Fixed your quote bro.
: I'm sorry, but I don't see the same comparison here. A majority of mages tend to be burst, or have longer range, or more frequent longer range abilities. A tank's GV is only when they're auto, and Executioner is whatever range the adc has, but most ADCs tend to have those abilities less frequently, tying it down to their range. On top of that, Mages have burst, including early game when everyone is relatively squishy. DPS champions and tanks, outside of assassins, tend to have more drawn out periods of damage. They need GV early in the fight, because Sustain is better against DPS than burst. Mages are more likely to kill their target before they can respond with their sustain. Sure, the sustain user might be able to keep their health above burst range (Looking at you Vlad), but it's because Mage's have such an easier time killing at higher HP values. They shouldn't also be able to slowly widdle down opponents into range while having that.
So what about the non-long range sustain damage mages? Or the AP bruisers. Screw them because of burst mages? That is like saying nerf all AD items because of ADCs. You honestly don't know there are more than just burst mages? I mean the only reason you only see burst mages is because that is all the ap items cater for.
SIayton (NA)
: How to counter Yasuo? I have a 100% lose rate to him currently.
Fiddle can beat him. Wind wall will not stop the fear or drain. Throw the crow and drain. He will wind wall then die. And he will think you are cheating. Build {{item:3047}} and {{item:3157}} Never hard engage useless you know you will kill him. Melee him to pop the shield, wait for it to fall, then crow him while farming for damage. When he dash toward you to attack just fear and walk back. Your surprise damage is while draining, the crows will bounce to that target. Since the crows will be behind the wall and drain is a tether he will take a lot. Don't be afraid to end the drain early to get back due to fear ending. You will have the run speed to help get you out. Now you just need to pray you don't get a limp jungle while theirs chain ganks you. (the ganks will come because you are a mage without dashes and Yasuo will be complaining like crazy.
: Can we corale mages out of the support position
Well I see you haven't play this game long enough. This happens whenever Assassins / bruisers are too strong. They can't mid lane because they don't have enough dashes/safety. Then most of them have some type of CC. This will equal to cc and then being able to kill the driver/assassin before they can kill the adc. Now take a normal support. You can CC them if you have it but they will still most likely kill the carry because no one peels in solo que but the support. Second point is that a lot of AD is top mid and jungle now. This adds in magic damage to keep tanks honest and not stacking something. Third adc all build glass cannon without defensive things. ( I keep trying to explain this to my friend but he says he is usless without all damage then instantly dies every time late game) This makes mages seen really strong because other lanes would have HP and defensive stats. Bot they rely on the support to make up for it. So easy bursting. This can be easily countered but playing safe and waiting on ganks. Building {{item:3155}} and/or {{item:1059}} to keep toped off and safety from zerging. At some good runes and it a totally different game. But I think only building glass cannon and then complaining on the forums seems like a better strat. You must be a master player{{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=B8ghEGkE,comment-id=000100000000001a,timestamp=2018-09-08T10:21:44.454+0000) > > I'm sorry, but I'm not going to allow this statement to go unchallenged. > > It doesn't seem overly compassionate to tell people to go kill themselves in a engine turbine of a 747 jet. If someone said that in game, they would be facing punishment (possibly), this guy got fired for these and other remarks. Maybe he just decided to keyboard-warrior it up a bit out of frustration, but regardless, it doesn't sound like the actions of a "caring" or "compassionate" individual. No amount of spin or anecdotal evidence will convince me otherwise. People make bad choices, we all have and some of those choices are more public than others. However, having worked 2 years with him and getting to know him as a co-worker & friend your challenge is noted, but I'll keep my stance. Have a good day friend.
> [{quoted}](name=Bazerka,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=B8ghEGkE,comment-id=000100000000001a0000,timestamp=2018-09-08T17:50:57.961+0000) > > People make bad choices, we all have and some of those choices are more public than others. However, having worked 2 years with him and getting to know him as a co-worker & friend your challenge is noted, but I'll keep my stance. Have a good day friend. I agree and he should make this a learning experience to father is career. I mean if Riot would have just said something, fixed the issue, punished him and still let him keep his job. IF they did this as soon as it happen is would have been all good. However, Riot failed hard. And to be honest is still failing. Let me explain. The whole mess stems not from the New hire or people wanting to go to PAX. It stems from the MANAGEMENT and higher ups. Its a culture issue. When a new hire comes in they will learn the "ropes" from those around them and what they are "allowed to do". So please explain how punishing anyone other an HR and the TOP jobs going to do anything. So Management is sexist and harasses females.... the solution is surround them by more females? Come on man. They are laughing and planning their sexual assaults as we speak. How about you get ride of your management and HR. Then you take the BEST talent. Then once someone has an issue they take it to there management. If management fails to help the person be harassed then HR will fire the harasser and manager. This would fix the issue FAST. Instead you are creating a joke by forcing all the chickens in the Fox pen. Do you Honestly not see the issue of punishing players, wanna be hires, and fans because manager allows the sexism, favoritism, and egoism culture to run wild. How has anything you have done to date fix this.... honestly?
Chalizard (EUNE)
: https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/fiddlesticks/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/zilean/diamond Fiddle in Diamond tier has almost 53% win rate with 6% pick rate, zilean 50,5% with 4% pick rate. In lower divisions zilean probably is better but fiddlesticks even in gold has legit pick rate, win rate and ban rate as he has win rate above 50% according to league of graphs and champion.gg. I can admit that nami is broken, there is no doubt about that, alistar is also really strong, maybe even zilean though it changes a bit in Diamond, but they don't need rework, if they need anything, they need nerfs. However, fiddlesticks is not weak either, aspecially in higher divisions and even if we agree that he is ballanced, the problem still will be that he has strong point and click CC that is impossible to dodge. I don't want to nerf him, I want to rework him and if in your opinion he is weak, then you should agree for rework even more. The post was about him being lets say "brainless", not about him being ultra op.
Or you can take an average of all the site from plat +. But instead picking the one with the highest then upping it to all roles and diamonds to try and prove your point. Then this data after the current nerf for before included. https://champion.gg/champion/Fiddlesticks/Support here is after the nerf patch to now. This doesn't include data before the nerf like yours does. No my opinion is not that he is weak. Its he is average with ok good counter play. They problem is people don't know the control play style and QQ. op.gg is the above info. You know where the best players play. http://na.op.gg/champion/fiddlesticks/statistics/support (over up over night because they are always updated..... unlike your link)
: ? fiddle is not the one killing me, he is the one stopping me from casting spells and from moving my character, i have no problem 1v2 him, but in a team fight when you are the tank and you cant peel for your ADC because you are silenced and cant use abilities, and then feared so you are immobilized for an even longer time i think is just not really fair
I can understand that. But I don't think the issue is the control mage. I think the issue is damage is too high and if you get any type of cc on you your dead. This leaves no room for counter play or defense. Rather Offensive is your only defense. ( fear then instant kill them) If damage was that you would have to land 2 fear and a slow to keep you from saving a carry then here the control mage does seem as powerful. I guess, I get the problem but I don't think its fiddle. its the damage creep. Like any damage champ and a lot of half damage champs will kill you in one rotation. Then add all the other CC with burst damage. (see fiddle has Damage over time with drain/ult ticks or bounces) What happens is fiddles fear gets you and allow all the other CC and damage to rain down. Or you jump and fiddles fear/silence stop you for a bit and you died or get zoned out. But once you nerf fiddle any support with CC (ex Leona ) will just be next in line because its not the champ. Its the META that is an issue.
: > [{quoted}](name=twidledidle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umdMR9Hf,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-09-06T17:42:12.621+0000) > > Riot how can you make a champion that takes 0 skill to play? Because he's extremely old??????? they probably wanna update him, too, but it's hard to argue that he needs work more than the other champions in line for work. Like you can try to convince me there are champions that need work more than Mordekaiser but you will fail.
I agree with Morde. However, if they remade him you know the fear, silence, aoe, healing, and damage would just be one of his spells.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jmman,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umdMR9Hf,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-09-06T20:14:43.072+0000) > >Have you seen how many champ instead kill you. Fiddle is not one of them. He would hardly be the one killing me, what with me usually being the one picking him and all XD https://i.imgflip.com/2hdc69.jpg Though I like playing Fiddle, I don't really like his E: too random, too silly (a scarecrow launching a crow? Like, literally throwing it?). Removing his E would remove a portion of his damage, true, but making his W AoE in the jungle would make up for the slower clearing, and reworking his E into an anti-vision tool would help set up more successful ults. It would also weaken his level 2/3 dueling/ganking potential (when the enemy is dumb enough to stand near a creep), but seeing as today pretty much anyone can either outrun or instakill him anyway it's not a huge loss. I might no longer be able to play him mid, though I'm not so sure about that: in some matchups it is better to max W, thus having his E become an anti-vision tool might actually make him better vs those enemies (by giving him better roaming).
Mint to type instantly. Fixed in above your crazy if you think he can support mid or jungle without a damaging "e" spell. Zoe only have two damaging spells. Having an immobile mage. With only one source of non-ult damage that is a dot. Then a channeled ult. You just made fiddle unplayable. The reason his "e" is fair is because of the mana cost. All his spells are damage over time. And he has no mobile. If you were to change his "e" you would have to give fear damage, and add some type of mobile or increase the damage on Drain ALOT. If your change when through you made fiddle weaker than {{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:25}} in damage without any extra utility. Now if you wanted to change Drain to a Casted Dot. Make Fear and cone/skill shot with damage, Made "E" and vision thing, then changed ult to be castible on allies with refuced damage I can see that. But to change a utility, his only range, farming spell into nothing without any trade off is just crazy talk.
Alzon (NA)
: I was referring to how few people know what he does and therefore have no idea how to play against him.
lol yea that would be me because I never top. I just never full engage him unless I ult in.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ligseo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umdMR9Hf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-06T18:31:54.327+0000) > > Fiddle Support is extremely problematic while jungle he is fine, they need to find a way to make less strong in lane without killing him jungle W -> AoE (spreads to the small monsters if it is draining the big one in the jungle) E -> reworked as an anti vision tool There you go: lane Fiddle is pretty much killed and jungle Fiddle is strong (maybe even broken, depends on the actual effectiveness of the changes).
So you are removing over 33% of his damage be he is now balanced? Have you seen how many champ instantly kill you. Fiddle is not one of them. Lol this thread is sooo funny.
Alzon (NA)
: Good ol Yorick psychology :)
Well I have no idea what his means. because I don't really think Yorick has counters or weakness like fiddle. Just try playing fiddle into a {{champion:15}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:12}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:2}}
: My biggest complaint about his E is that it can bounce to targets that Fiddle DOESN'T HAVE VISION OF. That shouldn't be allowed.
My biggest complain is when he throws a bat at early levels everyone runs back instead of diving him and breaking him in two because that poke is all he has. Then they come to the boards and QQ. I mean its like after Jihn's 4th shots a minion running back and letting him reload instead of trading while he reloads then backing once he has ammo again. Then complaining about him. (yes his run speed is a bit too high) Or after brand misses his spells backing and letting them back up so he can stun you. look a pot heals for 150. for 50 gold. That means 70 a cast in 6 cast he will use 420 mana a be close to or OOM. that means 360 damage. or roughly 2.4 pots will cause him to go oom and you be at full hp. Just make sure you have 2 pots in with you after you back and he will be useless.
: FIddle NEEDS a rework
Let me get this right. 49.71% win rate, tier 3, ranked 17 in support (behind lux) and you think he is braindead and op????? ROFL Let me guess all your great skills should be causing him to instantly die. Sure don't look if he is a counter to your champ. No don't ban him. Sub-par win rate but {{champion:26}} 52.50% win rate, {{champion:12}} 51.99%, {{champion:267}} 51.42 are balance right? Have you play fiddle? Because if you did you would understand that these mobile champs animations eat the fear. How many games do you have on fiddle? So Nonbrain dead play is spamming your abilities as fast as you can right? instead of balancing mana/hp, position, timing, vision control, etc etc. Your clueless and that is why he will beat you every time. You rather QQ about an average to below average champ than to learn him. I don't think I have every lost to a fiddle support. WHY? because I know where to ward. What not to do. and when to punish the poke. And how to punish him depending on what he levels first. But sadly a QQ is easier than playing / watching some games on him.
: "His abilities are expensive" Sure. His drain, okay. That gets expensive at later ranks. But he doesn't need to max it first to out-sustain most of your poke anyways, all he needs is the minion wave generally in his favor. And his E still takes way too little mana while offering nearly no counterplay in lane. Also what Fiddle has to max Fear first? You don't *need* it maxed first. Just spam E on the enemy casters and it'll bounce on the enemy botlane for you, and you just use W to sustain past the little poke you take from the enemy ADC in the meantime (because the support sure as hell won't be able to retaliate - you silenced them).
your crazy. he has some of the highest mana cost in the game. 70 mana for 60 damage. lvl 1 crows. The nerf to mana regen. What game are you playing. Sure I play fiddle but I have never lost against one as a support either. because I know the champ and how to beat him. Look at his lcs record as support. its like 2 wins with 10 loses. I hear man I don't know what to do so QQQQQ instead of playing him and learning him. Why do people push without sight of him? I don't know man there are a lot more op champs than fiddle. its just you expect him to be weak or don't understand how he does damage. YOu can just buy 2 pots and run him oom first trip back. Come on please learn the freaking champ because you QQQQ first.
: Agreed! Especially in the next patch, that would be bonkers ;)
Another improvement would be to match rank at positions instead of team. Wait that would improve the game too. NO more silver top vs a diamond. Instead riot should just be sexist then punish there fan base because of the sexist action they did. That should improve moral of fans.
: One of our designers is doing a quick exploration into support items and their quest passive rewards to see if there's a way to kind of spice up the satisfaction and appreciable power loaded into them to make way for a few other gameplay changes we're trying out for preseason. I don't want to get into specifics yet since we haven't actually tested them (we get to tonight for the first time). To be clear, we're not just looking to buff the current passives, but rather replace them with something better. It's also a possibility we don't ship anything for it l, but wanted to let you know we're taking some time to explore.
From a support main let me tell you why no one wants to play support or likes the items. First since I'm usually the highest rank person on my team, I'm screwing over another carry role. Because They are going against someone higher ranked. (this is true I can link history or a lot of games to prove this.) As support there is only a 20% chance that the other highest rank will be support. That mains the higher rank I get the harder it is to climb. A plat/diamond against my silver/gold carry isn't fun. Since I'm a support I don't have the gold or power to carry / make-up for any losing lane UNLESS I play a carry support and build damage. So i'm forced to not upgrade and build for carry or AP items. Then I'm depending on another player I don't know and is a lot of time lesser rank than me. So once again i'm at a disadvantage playing support. Gold income is crap, Then a lot of your gold has to go to pink wards. (good play needs them.) Once you get behind your really really behind. I have an interesting idea. Maybe we can make all the classes good. Right now I feel like a 2nd class player as support. Oh yea if you lose lane don't worry it will take sooooo lone to complete the ward quest you might as well FF because they will control all the vision. I don't understand why its soo hard to see the difference in solo que and team play where everyone is on voice chat and in the same room.
: Yeah, I see... however, I still believe there WOULD be algorithms out there that you COULD use that WOULD make the team selection fairer... it's just this Riot policy of never questioning these things, never explaining them (which would lead maybe to constructive feedback and input from people who know their stuff a bit?)... Maybe it IS the case that the game is slowly dying and the playerbase is dwindling... that would certainly explain why matchmaking gets worse and worse. Probably since the Chinese investor bought everything, they are now solely playing for money, not for competitiveness etc. anymore. Sad :(
True they CAN fix it. But they won't. I looked through my history and just about every game I lose is because a silver 4 vs a gold 1 top, mid, or jungle. Every game. Normal games are just as bad but at least I don't lose points because i'm can't carry from a non-carry spot. But just notice this, the games you lose or win. Its only a 10% chance or something that we win because we won our lane against a fair enemy. Its like 90% because of a rick role of someone that is at least a whole tier higher.
: Games are a coinflip, fix it.
Try queuing as a support. Plat support and gold adc vs gold adc and gold support.... nice.... wait is that a diamond/plat top {{champion:122}} vs a silver top.... This is like every fing game. I can't que as support in rank atm. I'm screwing my team mates with my rank and queuing as support. 80% chance I lost them the game because I qued as a non-carry role and being the highest rank.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 5
I wanted to talk about ranked as a support. It seems like ever time I que it puts a way higher ranked person against a lower rank person for a carry spot. I que as a plat support. Then I get a plat/diamond top against a silver / gold. Or its mid/jungle I guess what I'm trying to say is the system is rigged against support. Because you can't carry and are depending on the play of another champ. But since I'm usually the highest ranking person on my team, there is only a 20% chance of getting matched fairly. Support was made weaker. So how can I out play a few champ that is fed because they got queued against someone a lot lower than them. Its not really far to the other players on my team either. Its really hard wanting to que for ranked knowing there is a 80% chance someone on my team is going against someone a lot higher on the ladder and will most likely feed. Why would you que as support knowing you are at a huge dis-advantage?
: So Riot, which is it that doesn't work... matchmaking or rank representation?
Trying queing as a higher support. I get a silver or gold adc with me. Then mid/top/jungle is silver or gold going against a plat or diamond. Its bs. Cause there is a 80% chance it will place a higher rank against my lower rank in a carry spot. A plat or diamond adc with a silver support will crap on a silver adc with a plat or diamond support. I can't save from playing like a monkey. What you won bot now deal that with 12/0/0 {{champion:122}} that crapped all over your silver top while being plat. This is why I can't play ranked anymore. I feel like nothing I do will add to my team unless I play a dang mage and try to hard carry from bot.... This is the life of a support in ranked. I WISH LCS WAS CLOSE TO SOLO PLAY. But one is fun group play the other is 30% trolls/afks, 70% which higher rank gets a lower rank enemy.
: If any cosplayers want to come to the league meet up, we would love to have you: https://www.facebook.com/events/215417959321646/
So do I have to cosplay as a girl or gay to get it or are males allowed to cosplay. Just trying to get my head around all the new Liberal insanity.
: The Alienware stuff is free. You are welcome to join us there!
Alienware what gender pronoun does it use. But it might have to wait or maybe they are only availed to non-males.
: not this year. We take every year to experiment a bit, and what you see above are the plans for PAX.
Is this the Male or Female answer? Just wonder is some are more equal than others.
Léø (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Jmman,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=38E5AMu9,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2018-08-29T15:21:40.689+0000) > > "Trundle - Jungle dominance Gragas - Jungle dominance (though does lead to interesting early play, especially with increasing common Predator builds)" > > But nothing about {{champion:104}} {{champion:163}} jungles? Its like we see them just as more if not more than then ones you named in pro? > > {{champion:39}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:107}} buffs? > > would love some context on those things. > > Just can't nerf something have to keep buffing cancers over and over again.... put the sugar down and eat some vegetables man. Just because it doesn't "taste" good doesn't mean its not the best thing for the game. Man you just do not sink this properly..they have these junglers and the irelia kayn and rengar buffed because they are fun and they dont want to watch Worlds 2018 with fucking tanks everywhere in it. you stupid ass fiddle main..
So my main some how overrides any point that is true in my post because you don't like fiddle. Not only that but you attack me personal because I play a certain champ. Just because you have fun with your champs doesn't mean that everyone else does. The funny thing is you attack me because your saying I don't care if you have fun, I should have fun instead blowing people up. 1. Didn't say anything about the champs being already strong and well played. Meaning its trying to push skins sales or force a play style / meta. 2. Next tanks are being played because of the zerg damage going around. Meaning buffing burst damage champs will = more "fucking tanks everywhere in it" (quoting you) And boring safer game play. 3. Person attack without merit and trying to decode the first sentence you wrote to make sense. 4. You rather keep buffing damage rather than knocking the strongest down. (you want more damage creep) Tells me your a troll that has no clue about balance or the impact on a micro and macro level. Rather that "I smashed my button quickest and get GUD!!!! No people like me are the ones that have good disposable income that pays there salaries. Grow up kid and type something that won't embarrass the human race.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 29
"Trundle - Jungle dominance Gragas - Jungle dominance (though does lead to interesting early play, especially with increasing common Predator builds)" But nothing about {{champion:104}} {{champion:163}} jungles? Its like we see them just as more if not more than then ones you named in pro? {{champion:39}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:107}} buffs? would love some context on those things. Just can't nerf something have to keep buffing cancers over and over again.... put the sugar down and eat some vegetables man. Just because it doesn't "taste" good doesn't mean its not the best thing for the game.
: 1: Thank you for your service. I Go to basic training on September 4th. Where'd you go/what's your MOS? 2: Tahm was stupid in pro play, and is in general a super cuck champion. They want his get your ADC out of jail for free pass a more appropriate cost.
I'll give you some free advise. The whole time your their bust you a$$. Run to line when asked. Always be the first one when asked for volunteers. Help people that are having a hard time. If you quality well in shooting talk to the DS to put a person next to you that needs help and have him tap your leg if you need to hit his target to help him pass. etc etc. At the end they will give out a few promotions. This means higher rank and more $$$. The DS also will talk to the sergeants and commanders of where you will be stationed. This means a easier time and already in the good with them. On top of the extra time off, and special perks. Sure its sucks but for the short time your there in Basic or basic/mos training together (depending on MoS) it will put you miles ahead and more $$. Also some of the crap they do is nothing personal, its just have to make something up to punish everyone.... get used to waking up at 5 - 6 ish. Oh and remember to shave (doing this the night before is a lot easiers than fighting 50 people for 6 mirrors lol) Good Luck, enjoy it. A lot of cool weapons and blowing things up. You will come back buff and healthy. If you hate it. (some do) Just take the money and its only a few years for a lot of benefits.
: me too edit: this is a joke because i wrote them
Just wonder if you can move some of fiddle skins into a cool group. Pirate one not with the other pirates Bandito one not with the high noon Surprise party just has 2 member and no one likes amumu (plus fiddle wasn't in the picture) union jack, spectral (really these aren't just chromas?) I can go on and on. Only one has a different back. (Risen) Its like he Pepsi one of champs for skins and features. Sure nunu needed the rework but all the other ones before him??? He is either stupidly annoying or so under powered its crazy. Its beyond me why this champs, 80's graphics, horrible animations haven't been addressed yet. But I guess his bio of just staying in a field says a lot of Riot view point on the champ. Kind of sad a lot of the older champs just seem to be outdated in ever way. Just another kick in the balls to the player base that made riot what it is I guess.
: New rune stats will definitely include both offensive and defensive stats.
Soooo pretty much like the old system but Flashier?
: Actually I think it will be something new. We've seen 2 main states and we want to get the best of both. State 1 - early games are fun and back and forth, but ending the game takes forever (the infinite wave clear stall etc) State 2 - early games snowball too quickly but closing out games feels reasonable with a lead Our goal - back and forth early games with a clear way to end the game late if you're ahead
I think fixing Gold for player kills would go a long way. Make the gold 1/2 or 1/3 it is now. (or maybe the gold goes down everytime you kill the same champ or something) You still get a major advance on exp and gold from minion by killing them. No need to make it snowball for more gold. I think this would also bring more interaction and fights in the LCS. Because its too much of a risk to trade/fight. Reduce the gold for it mean your reducing the risk. This would lead to better game play. I also thing this will positively increase players attitudes and we will see less toxic people.
Meddler (NA)
: Something along the lines of 'pick your stat of choice' or 'pick a primary stat you get some of and a secondary stat you get less of'. Still figuring out details.
I know we can have 4 different choices. We can pick colors to identify them. Like Red Yellow Blue and Purple. The stats can be budget differently by colors. Lets say Purple can be the good ones so maybe we can only have 3 of them and like 9 of the others. We can call them Futhorc's (Anglo-Saxon for runes {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} ) We can add things like hp, ac, mr, ad, ap, etc. Then we can put scales ones too. Dang if only we had a system like this years ago..... All joking aside. Customizing stats will go a long way to help the early game and reduce the damage fest.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 3
Do you think we can try and remove a lot of the damage from Runes and move it more into utility and playstyles? Personally I feel like you need to bring back the only runes in some fashion, call them "masteries", and make them free. Because you had sustain, utility (gp5, movement), defense (AC and MR), damage (ap and AD) and all can be up front or growing over time. You had like 15 to 17 totally different build styles. Then take away the bonus for the "new Runes" take the damage aspect out of MOST of them.(a few would be ok) And change them to utilities for playstyles. example. After shock now procs a slow instead of damage. This slow goes up per level. Electrocute Instead of damage procs as small AoE as the 3rd hit. (damage didn't go up just hit more things. Plus the game play of plan attacks in order and need) Cheap shot instead of damage increase damage on CCed targets by 10% (don't know on balance just an idea) Aery is now only for heals shields and increases slows Comet losers resists if target is hit or can still stay damage since you can dodge it. Press the attack should like your range increases the number of enemies or allies around you. Make one that is like spell/life steal. But it moved it to grey hp that will heal you when your out of combat. Above are just ideas how you can take damage out and move it to game play. Sure you might be able to pull more damage if you play combo's and things right. but this isn't up front. Allows for Multiple builds. Make the Old rune people happy and still keep the new ones happies. Its like the best of both worlds
: Realistically the old rune system didn't give people much to work for either, with the exception of completionists who actually derive joy from getting every piece of available content. For most veteran players they just had massive IP banks that they never spent because they had the needed armor/mr/cdr/ad/as/ap/scaling hp runes. Ideally we can find some other form of meaningful progression, but old runes really weren't it.
I think people are missing the point and instead of understanding the micro choices. Micro it has ALOT more. Macro New way has ALOT more. Example before in a fight I could take a shield, a really big shield, sword, spear, bow, horse and lance, etc to custom the way I wanted to play that match. Now, its do I want an arrow that blows up red, blue, or green. Then do I want my arrow to sparkle on the way or not. They all do the same thing. ADD DAMAGE. Every tree is about adding damage to your champions kit the best way possible. Why do people have to buy the runes? They grinding was a chore. Is it really that hard to let me just pick the ones they wanted? I see all the IP, boring (flashy = damage right), etc. But no one (rioter) takes about you could go utility, sustain, defensive (ac or MR), Mobile, Damage. Then they all could go early or late game (per lvl). So I could go with 18 Different styles. Now I have a 8 MAX. But all 8 are adc with damage, mage with damage, Tank with damage, support MAYBE the only none damaging focused one. Just because they have more text on them and do flashy things doesn't mean they provide more "others" its just more "options" for damage. And its all more or less burst / up front damage. Long story short. instead of making the old runes free to cater to the casuals you killed the whole (not at impactful and easier to balance) runes and remade them. The remake killed all balancing hope. Because now you pick the champ for the Rune instead of runes for the champs. And father more you have nerfing the champ because of the runes. Then changing the runes and not correcting champs. You created a balancing nightmare. See the rune it one nerf or buff. The champ cause a chain reaction that effects other champs, items, and other runes. Once you champ the champ you then have to turn around and change 4 other things. The more Complicated the Runes are the more impossible balance will be. Runes don't have to be all power make or break choices. They Should and only be how to want your play style to be and how you want to start. They rest is up to how you build. Any other way puts too many variables in.
: Dropping this in here since I did in another thread but you may not see it. This is a current low scope direction we're testing for some damage runes. These will be on the PBE tomorrow: Electrocute Damage :: 50-220 (+50%bAD)(+30%AP) >>> 30-180 (+40%bAD)(+25%AP) Cooldown :: 50-25 >>> 25-20 Cheap Shot Damage :: 15-40 >>> 8-40 Sudden Impact Lethality Bonus :: 10 >>> 7 Magic Penetration Bonus :: 8 >>> 6 Celerity Bonus Movement Speed converted to Attack Damage :: 9.6% >>> 6% Bonus Movement Speed converted to Ability Power :: 16% >>> 10% Scorch Damage :: 20-60 >>> 10-30 Cooldown :: 20 >>> 10
Would it be possible to Let them dictate style of play rather than just damage. Heck look at after shock. Why does it have damage on it? I fill like everything is damage happy. Example of better runes Electrocute. Your 3rd spell / attack you hit become a small AoE of lighthing. (notice damage on the champ did not increase be might hit other targets. After shock changed to proc a small slow instead of damage. Aery is just for shield and slows (increases the slow amount) Comet lowers MR and AC of targets hit. (might have to play with range and speed) Phase rush is ok because it adds game play not mindless damage. Changing some damage to true or the reverse damage (AD because AP and AP become AD This might be a better option then "true damage") See with old runes you can Micro your way into different play styles. The new runes were made for Macro play and too MMORPGish. These would be great as AA from EQ or talents from WoW because they effect the over all performance of the Boss fight or raid. The old way would like you customize for the match your going against. Example. AC for zed mid. Run Quince / MR against mage bot. AC / lifesteal for jungle. You can change it for the style of the lane and match up. Now with the new ones its all the same and you might change one rune because its might be better. This is compared to changing your whole page and all your stats. If you look at some of the new runes. You have to give someone 100 resist and level 1 or 2 just for fill tankish….. does that not seem a little crazy? Then look at how easy it is for mobile champions to proc or use all the them. So what advance does an mobile mage have? I mean you have to crazy buff Lee Sin because he go out champ creeped by {{champion:104}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:163}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:164}} etc. Its almost like dashing / mobility / cheesing is now a must for jungle. I'm not saying these champs are op or not. But look at the kits/damage/etc and think what if this champ was in the game 2 or 3 seasons ago as they are now. Would they be totally busted. If you say well times have changed. My response would be well most of the champs you could and they would be fine so maybe newer champs went "too far". I don't know. Before I could get about the same ap starting out without all the effect / proc damage from the new runes. Why don't you just leave the increase stats ones and removed the straight damage ones. Its ok to increase AP/AD from run speed because that is a play style. Its ok to do a little extra with poke, but why add two ways for the same tree. Only one would be ok but two is over the top. that is a play style. Its not ok to add extra damage into a tank rune because it seems cool. Its not ok to add ALOT of extra damage because your cool and look flashes ( looking at Electrocute). I mean you can dodge comet so it isn't too bad. Extra true damage because they are slowed.... just extra damage for playing your class Now we are nerfing champs mana and spells because of the extra damage from runes. You are kill the identity and play style of champs because of your dumb runes. Look at fiddle. 70 mana for 60 damage. wow. That nerf will kill him in the jungle and mid. Instead maybe you should look at aery and scorch procing to do the same damage as the spell. NOPE nerf fiddle. So now once you "fix" the runes. What are you going to do about the champs you killed because of the runes. See fiddle was up for buffs / viewed as weak until you gave him a way to proc aery/comet, scorch, cheap shot (with {{item:3116}} then burning with {{item:3151}}. So its it the spell or the 4 procs I can have that will do more damage than the spell? But hey there hasn't been any damage creep. I can double the damage of the spell (not counting AP either) when I use to poke. Oh you have a diving comp. Let me get the rune that gives me 100 to resists and then blows you up for damage at lvl 1. Yep fear is broke. Well sure because its a one shot meta. Any cc is broken because it means death. Unless you can proc your op rune that give you 100 resists for a 75% damage reduce starting at lvl 1. You are making an op rune to counter an op rune then you have to make an op item to counter that op things and we get into the mess we are at now.
Meddler (NA)
: No current plans for Nami, though certainly keeping an eye on her. We've just put some tank buffs into testing. So far they're almost all focused on buffing each tanks kit inherent defenses. Those changes will get a bit of internal testing this week and then potentially go to the PBE in a bit. Aiming to have whichever changes hit the mark in 8.16.
Can we get a list of champ that are ok to have a high win rate without being nerfed and the ones that can't have a high win rate or they will be nerfed. Because I get confused when champs get instantly nerfed at 51% and 52% with low play rates and other are "being watched" after have higher win rate and play rates for longer. I would like to know which champs I need to get gud at. Because I don't like learning a champ and then having to put him down because his win rate hit 51% and he got cut off at the knees. Oh just wondering which champ you play?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 1
Questions on the Damage "data" and nerfing champs because of annoying/bad game play, First when Riot said that damage hasn't gone up when looking at the data, it made me do a {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} face. See in Hp hasn't gone up. So if I had 2000 hp 2 seasons ago and 2000 hp now. The data can't show more damage unless people were picking higher hp champs. Because you can only take someone hp to zero. There is no over kill. Now, what is happening is I take 2000 damage in .23 secs and before it was in 6 secs. DId the damage increase. Of course it did. But you gave zero context into the data or how the data was gathered (I think this is the reason Riot does share it because there would be an up roar). One of two things happened. You didn't understand or know the data presented or you has bias glasses on and the data "told" you want you wanted to her. Now i'm not saying you want a crap meta. However, you would like to you have this "yea we were totally wrong moment". SO was the data a DPS, total fight, total per game, or total to kill someone. What is the context of this data so we can determine if its material or a cause of looking for numbers to support your point. Next is no to champs with bad play styles. I will admit that fiddle support is annoying but its rather people don't understand the counter play to it. Sure I play fiddle a lot. But I rarely lose to a fiddle support if the ADC or carry would just listen to me. After the crow you run and trade back. You make him waste his mana sustaining. You don't hard engage, you fake it then back. See I would know because I play him. But it never fail people don't understand and just run back taking the poke and crying about it. They don't run away from the bounce. They just complain. So he was fixed because people don't understand him. (he isn't play a lot). Whatever I can deal with it. You have to hold their hands force it. But why are we not "correcting" toxic play style of other champs. Fiddle just had poke. {{champion:142}} is beyond busted. Always picked in pro play. Doesn't need to hit anything to kill you. Point and click you to death if she misses her skill shot. {{champion:91}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:39}} What is the point or base that we need to fix things due to bad play style. Because champs that are mostly due to not understanding a champ (but fiddle nerf still might be needed) get "corrected" and others are BS without counter play not being touched. I feel like if causals don't like it or to lazy to learn a strat against it, it become instantly nerfed. But OP champs just stay that way. Is it because these champs make casuals feel better at the game? These reeks of things that happen in WoW before I quit playing that game. I'm just trying to understand the data points or the think behind some decisions. Because it does look like you pick and choose event though they all are the same.
: So do you care to point out the points that are wrong, or are you just going to go for personal attacks and blanket statements with no evidence?
I have played since season one. You are wrong. Not to be mean. But before people complained about one champ or one item. It was in true because that champ or item was way to strong for the meta. Now People are complaining about Generally. Example, people complained about Lee Sin mobility. Just it ward hoping into a skill shot then kick you back with flash. Now people are saying there are like 10 champs with too much mobility. Before you could ban him if you didn't want to face it. Now you can't ban them all and they all kind of play the damage. Jump / CC from two screens away and instant kill you. Before jungle would have to farm their FF up to have an op item and good damage. But this meant you had a good laning phase because they were farming jungle mobs. Now they just build {{item:3147}} and get more exp / gold than before. For sustain they just had {{item:3153}} {{item:3072}} for AD and for AP they had life steal and mana pots. Tanks had {{item:3102}} (then they reworked it into a bad item for game play) Force of Nature and {{item:3075}} did real damage and was a threat to AD. But force of nature was the AP version for tanks. Now look at all the sustain from runes, {{item:3812}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3026}} moved to AD item should have stay a defensive choice. What happened to Mage sustain.... oh removed. ADCs now have so much run speed from runes and items its crazy, I remember when you had to make the choice between Run speed, HP, or damage quince. Look at Armor pen. They changed it to lethality added {{item:3814}} {{item:3147}} then changed {{item:3033}} {{item:3036}} Remember when AD was like AP just plain Jane one none over loaded item {{item:3135}} and one pen item. But hey they took the best pen item from AP and removed Fiddle pen because it was op only to get AD more and better version. If it was a problem for AP then it sure it going to be a problem for AD just because of the nature of it. Instead they added more and armour is meaning less. Dude I can go on and on. If you can't see the difference then you must be {{champion:64}} brother because you both are blind. It has turned into a Zero skill button mashing fest. Sure some people like that. But I prefer a game like it was with skill not what champ I selected and who has the worst team mates. See these things I have no control over. And not have any control over win conditions its not fun.
: I play, and have played, a huge spread of types of champion. I like playing Velkoz, Kog'Maw is my second highest mastery champion and I play him primarily ap mid. My highest mastery is on Bard. I've just been having fun playing Cho'Gath recently especially since his new skin makes him look rad as hell. Out of all the champions you listed at the top of your post, Ornn is the only one I have played more than a small handful of times. Funny you insult me for playing chogath after complaining about damage and mobility creep, both things which would invalidate him harder than any other tank in the game. Immobile mages are far from weak. They're vulnerable in lane, yes. But they are able to output damage safely better than any other class in the game. With a couple of items under their belt, many of them can very easily and safely poke other champions out of lane or take them out of the fight with one or two well-placed spellcasts. You seem to have quite the large list of champions who are unable to be defeated/super super OP. Maybe it's you who doesn't understand the game if you're having such a hard time with a large portion of the games cast.
and your 5 wins 12 loses record in rank for the last month says those champs are fine and your totally correct {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
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Jmman

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