: Let's settle this once and for all! Is the support item change a buff or a nerf? - An Analysis -
I keep laughing to myself about these support item threads. No one has bothered arguing that the supports now don't have item/gold value swings. This "free item" comes at the cost of losing some passive gold...and that means you can't really have much better recall timings...unless you're just demolishing your lane with your ADC.
: > [{quoted}](name=Quinn Is Bae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-11-23T21:20:00.908+0000) > > People complain about Senna when those ADC exist {{champion:119}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:498}} wich all scale better and have actual steroids throught the game and shit on Senna any day.. but hey, she is new, she must be OP right…? The problem is none of your statements are backed up by facts or have any validity. All of those champs you listed have horrible WRs against Senna (near 45%). She can outrange all of those ADCs plus she has way more utility than any of them. They can't do half of what Senna can do EVEN if they did as much damage as she does (Which they don't). If Kaisa suddenly had a global ult that could shield her allies and she could heal herself off her Q then you might have something. https://u.gg/lol/champions/senna/matchups?role=adc She's gonna get nerfed, of that there is no doubt. I get you want to defend her because you like playing her and probably enjoy beating up on people but anyone who looks at her objectively won't deny she's way overtuned. How hard she gets nerfed will remain to be seen but it's definitely coming.
> [{quoted}](name=OneMustFall,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2019-11-24T01:10:49.466+0000) > > She's gonna get nerfed, of that there is no doubt. I get you want to defend her because you like playing her and probably enjoy beating up on people but anyone who looks at her objectively won't deny she's way overtuned. How hard she gets nerfed will remain to be seen but it's definitely coming. Riot defends her though. The patch notes said she was perfoming well, and they gave her a slight nerf if I remember correctly. I want to see how they nerf her, when they eventually do. I can't fathom what they could do except gut certain numbers, or totally change the way certain abilities in her kit are working. If they do either of those things, then the champ will just fade into the abyss like many others...and that's not right either.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-11-23T18:30:58.768+0000) > > Her kit is pretty much only utility. Aside from her eventual unlimited range, and eventual crit chance...she has no ADC steroids, as all the good ADC have. Attack speed buffs(tristana), fluid kits(like lucian), innately high damage(jhin). Yes she has infinite range and crit chance, but those aside from crit chance...which has a cap...range isn't really the only thing an ADC needs to make damage. > > Think about it, all the other ADC get definitive boosts from their kits...when they buy items. She gets these boosts, regardless, and besides the idea of "infinite scaling", they are hardly steroids. I have no idea what Riot's intent was or direction with her kit, but she doesn't exactly have an ADC kit. > > As a support on the other hand, she has some form of most utilities that exist in the game. Speed buff coupled with untargetability, global AoE shield that is pretty much impossible to miss(it also can make damage). Her passive stacks infinitely, granting range and crit chance(why both?), she has a multipurpose heal...that both damages and can target anything(towers, wards, pretty sure even her own minions). And then there's her ranged "AoE" snare, which actually doesn't feel that strong on its own. Her Q proc on hit, wich also proc anything ( Trinity force, Duskblade and so on including Grasp of the undying wich I have been running quite often as the damage and healing is amazing since it proc on multi target if you aim correctly), her snare do wonder coupled with another CC support, the heal also help mitigate damage taken and while dealing a chunk of damage to enemy , and tower because it it enemy tower. She is better than you think on ADC role since her win rate is higher than support. Her range, free crit and lifesteal and AD make it almost impossible to itemize against because she can go Crit oriented build, Lethality oriented or even AP-AS oriented/on-hit. She is versatile but have defined weakness and so far so good, people are doing just fine to deny me. She is far from OP..
Look, I'm not saying she is wicked OP or that she needs to be removed or anything. I'm saying her kit is overloaded, she has more flexibility and options than other champions. As someone else said in this thread, just her passive alone is about 3 paragraphs of text. Overloaded kit doesn't necessarily mean overpowered...it mainly means she is likely strong, and extremely hard to balance. I know things counter her, imo Morgana has a similar kit...but Morgana hard counters her. Nothing quite says "you're a champion without a dash", like a fat bind to the face. Plus the spell shield, and Morg's R gives a better all in potential than mostly anything in Senna's kit. But Senna is capable of peeling, sustaining, harassing, engaging, disengaging. She has a global shield on a short cd(the shield might be broken idk, but the numbers seem kind of small so I don't think it is). Her kit just has so many variables happening, there is no real specific playstyle. Something like Morgana for example again, if she whiffs her bind she loses a large percentage of her utility, a crap load of damage, and has a clear window to be engaged on. Senna on the other hand, doesn't have much of that. Again, not here to argue if she is "OP", just no one can tell me that her kit isn't overloaded. Like Lee sin and thresh, she will be difficult to balance. Thresh is versatile because no matter what numbers they change on his cd's...his lantern is situationally one of the best spells to ever exist. Lee sin is also a mobile, assassin, bruiers, etc...and constantly gets played through the years. Riot will always either buff her and she will become insanely strong, or nerf her and her kit will feel gutted. EDIT: Also I didn't even know her Q applies on hit stuff. I'm not against that, but that's like 12 different abilities in a single kit, essentially. It just feels like there is too much going on, and most champions have like 6-7 effects in their kits.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T20:21:56.197+0000) > > If her attack speed got slower with her range increase, there would be a point in the game where you'd actually scale down, instead of remaining neutral or scaling better. Once she's full build, she can't exactly make up for her loss of AS with items. > > Her kit will be extremely difficult to balance, because she has so many things happening in it. > > EDIT: If you gut her range, her early game will become trash...prime example of that would be old Annie support, Annie used to have 25 more auto attack range...Riot nerfed it so that Annie couldn't harass other ADC. If you remove the heal on her Q, she'd get punished by almost every utility support. If you changed her snare or mobility, her lack of attack speed would only shine greater. If you took the damage out of her ult, it still has a hitbox that you basically CAN'T miss. And I think this sums up a lot of the problem with champs coming out lately. She's like the female version of Pyke. She has so many different abilities and things going on with her kit that balancing her is going to be difficult. Her passive is four paragraphs long. Fizz's passive is one sentence. Riot keeps pushing out champs with over complicated kits that frustrate people playing against those champs. My idea would be to start with a damage nerf to her Ult and reduce the range on her W a bit. She just needs less safe oppressive abilities. It may not fix her but she'll have to engage more to get kills and carry the team.
Yea certain newer champs just have too much happening. It's kind of funny though...if Riot had made champions like Senna...from the beginning...she wouldn't feel like an issue in terms of balancing, at least from my view. Every champion would have multi-purpose kits. Instead we have Senna that isn't great at any one thing, but she has a lot of things she can do. Meanwhile there are things like Volibear, that have a pretty linear "run at you" playstyle. I still don't think she is broken, but her kit is surely overloaded.
: What's the deal with all the game ruiner duos bot?
If you were really maintaining a 70% winrate, it would be literally impossible to not climb. People in higher ELO's essentially have a coin flip after playing many games, and they climb. A plat player would likely have over a 60% winrate in silver, and it's not necessary for them to have 70% to get there. Also blitz jungle? How do you efficiently clear camps(which is arguably just as important as ganking, if not more)? That doesn't seem very good. And are you trolling? I looked up your op.gg, and you had a 4/3 win rate(57%) with Blitz last season. The reason you had issues climbing was because your overall win rate was roughly 50%, and your highest played character(veigar) actually had a negative win rate. EDIT: If you ask me how to climb, try not playing Blitz. Try playing something like Yi, that you actually had a pretty good winrate/kda on. Your blitzcrank averages 2.4 kills, 6.4 deaths, and 6.4 assists. That means you're having low impact on the game, and the impact you're having is mostly a negative one. On top of that, your max kills was 4, and your max deaths was 10, for blitz. That means that you've probably never hard carried as blitz, and you've definitely fed at least one game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hayaishi2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-11-23T19:46:05.647+0000) > > Senna starts at 600 range like who the fuck thought that was a good idea? All while having one of the most overloaded kits this game has ever seen. > > -Remove Q proccing on-hit effects. > -Reduce W root duration to 1.5 at all ranks > -Ult no longer global. > -Reducing her range to 525 > > There are alot of places where she can take a nerf If they reduce her range, they need to up her attack speed. What might work is if her attack speed gets slower as her attack range increases.
If her attack speed got slower with her range increase, there would be a point in the game where you'd actually scale down, instead of remaining neutral or scaling better. Once she's full build, she can't exactly make up for her loss of AS with items. Her kit will be extremely difficult to balance, because she has so many things happening in it. EDIT: If you gut her range, her early game will become trash...prime example of that would be old Annie support, Annie used to have 25 more auto attack range...Riot nerfed it so that Annie couldn't harass other ADC. If you remove the heal on her Q, she'd get punished by almost every utility support. If you changed her snare or mobility, her lack of attack speed would only shine greater. If you took the damage out of her ult, it still has a hitbox that you basically CAN'T miss.
: BECAUSE EVERY OTHER MOVE SPEED BUFF IN THE GAME IS 30% or Greater, itemizes even higher, most dashes cover more ground, and most CC skillshots absolutely outrun it. P.S. When people refer to champs as mobile, they refer to generally dashes/blinks, not small boosts to move speed. Juggernauts can outrun Senna. P.P.S It astounds me you dislike a 1.25 second delayed root skill that lasts 1 second, but don't have a problem with a potentially damage doubling pass through walls for significant range Zoe E. Blows my friggin mind.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T20:05:32.265+0000) > > BECAUSE EVERY OTHER MOVE SPEED BUFF IN THE GAME IS 30% or Greater, itemizes even higher, most dashes cover more ground, and most CC skillshots absolutely outrun it. > P.S. When people refer to champs as mobile, they refer to generally dashes/blinks, not small boosts to move speed. I don't see how mobility is defined as having EXCESS mobility, when there are champions that don't have any AT ALL. Mobility is just the ability to move faster, during team fights, or through the map. Meaning jumping over walls is mobility, move speed of any kind is mobility. I suppose you think Phase rush isn't a mobility keystone? Or that Singed's kit is immobile? Not blinking or dashing does NOT make a character immobile...it just makes them more susceptible to skillshots, and roadblocks(like anivia for example). > P.P.S It astounds me you dislike a 1.25 second delayed root skill that lasts 1 second, but don't have a problem with a potentially damage doubling pass through walls for significant range Zoe E. Blows my friggin mind. I literally have said in this thread, that her root doesn't bother me. I also said that I don't like Zoe. On top of that, Zoe's sleep only hits one target, Senna's hits everyone around that. I don't actually find Senna's bind or Zoe's sleep broken though. Zoe's is annoying because of the immense range, Senna's is fair because it just has a delay. Senna's snare is comparable to Morgana's and I see nothing wrong with that, because they added the delay to it. If Senna's bind were AoE and instantly snared, it would feel incredibly broken. I get it, you like the champion. Sorry that her kit has more abilities in it than any other champion in the game. This isn't even an argument about how good any of her abilities are compared to others with similar effects. This is an argument that her kit has more effects than pretty much every single character that already exists. Her kit of 4 abilities, plus a passive...has about 10 or 11 different things happening in it. Forget that Soraka heals more than her, soraka doesn't have as much damage or range. Forget that Morgana has more CC, morgana doesn't heal anything except herself.
: I was support, so CS shouldn't matter, while vision score should. The game was also around an hour long.
> [{quoted}](name=Emperør Rhaast,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RlsW6EJ9,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T19:17:14.180+0000) > > I was support, so CS shouldn't matter, while vision score should. The game was also around an hour long. Yeah well CS score does matter. My friend who mains Thresh...nasty Thresh player, lands almost all of his hooks, cancels jumps with flays, etc...he doesn't ever build the tank support item. The one that lets you take CS. His grades are hardly ever S, even if he is hard carrying or getting insane KDA. It's literally because other thresh players build the tankier support item, and get some farm here/there, while he just doesn't. The grading system is just bad, and is not really an indicator of how well you play. I've fed my ass off on singed(obviously not intentionally), and still gotten S scores because my farm per minute tends to be ridiculous. I'm actually pretty sure that having good CS outweighs having good kda...with the current system. It's just bad, but that's how it is.
: SHE IS NOT MOBILE. Her heals SELF ROOT. HER DAMAGE SELF ROOTS. She has one DELAYED CC. (You really must like Zoe either, given you're scared of a delayed root)
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T19:20:34.799+0000) > > SHE IS NOT MOBILE. Her heals SELF ROOT. > HER DAMAGE SELF ROOTS. She has one DELAYED CC. Her heal has a cast time, like most abilities in the game have(although hers scales down with attack speed, I don't see that as op or anything). That's hardly a weakness. And how is a 20% move speed buff, for 8 seconds, that's also making you AND ALLIES unclickable...not mobility? > (You really must like Zoe either, given you're scared of a delayed root) I don't like Zoe. She's like old AP nidalee, but with CC to make her kit work more efficiently. Do I think Zoe is broken? No. Overloaded? No. The only thing that actually bothers me about Zoe is her W has quite a lot of RNG to it.
: No. There's definitely direction. It's called letting her grow INTO an adc while not really starting out as one. Her Attack speed nerfs and crit damage nerfs make her 65% as effective as an adc. That's literally her whole theme. So, in exchange for being 65% of an adc, she's given an itemization curve. She's slow. Her hits are weak. Unless she has Auto > Q > Auto up, she literally has no damage. All in her and destroy her. Her "Direction" Is that she's mobile artillery, and acts as one: causes damage to areas at range, but when piled upon by enemy forces has literally 0 defenses. B) Sorry, but that's like saying Zyra shouldn't do damage, or Pyke, or Janna, or Morgana. Or my Nami, who does more damage per game than most Sennas.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T19:12:01.433+0000) > > Her "Direction" Is that she's mobile artillery, and acts as one: causes damage to areas at range, but when piled upon by enemy forces has literally 0 defenses. Mobile, utility, artillery. She has ranged CC, but also offers shields and healing. > B) Sorry, but that's like saying Zyra shouldn't do damage, or Pyke, or Janna, or Morgana. Or my Nami, who does more damage per game than most Sennas. Zyra doesn't have a heal in her kit, nor a shield, nor mobility. Zyra makes decent CC, and a lot of damage. Senna has decent CC, a shield, a heal, damage, mobility, and the eventual infinite scaling. The only reason anyone can argue that she isn't "broken", is because her utility numbers aren't that high. Her kit definitely has more going on in it than the other champions', just her base numbers aren't bonkers like some others on release. Because she has so much going on, she will also be hard to balance successfully. If you nerf a single part of her kit, the champion just looks like crap overall. But if you leave everything, she has too many things happening. Prime examples of having many features in a kit, would be lee sin/thresh. Notice how both of those champions have continued to be picked, no matter what the meta was...even with nerfs.
: Riot, we need to talk.
Well vision score I don't think has anything to do with the grading system. Really it mainly has to do with the amount of kills/assists you have, at that specific timing of the game. Also the amount of CS you have is very relevant as well. If you play Senna and go 5/0/5 at 30 minutes, with low CS, you're going to have a bad grade. But if you play her and get higher than average kills/assists/CS by that same 30 minute marker, your grade will be higher. Plus Senna is just strong right now, I'm imagining there are a lot of players getting ridiculous high K/D/CS scores, while maintaining low death rates. And the grade is also specific to the champion, not to the game. Meaning you can get a worse score on another champion, and still get an S+
: > [{quoted}](name=WTBeGirl100EUhr,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xAnL07MF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-23T15:23:40.655+0000) > > Going to post the maths here. Going back over it my OP is wrong but it's still... really not much different. > > MELEE 76.8 ⇒ 75.4 (-1.4) > CASTER 38.4 ⇒ 37.12 (-1.3) > CANNON 120 ⇒ 116 (-4) > > In a duo lane you get half of that XP. > > MELEE 38.4 ⇒ 37.7 (-0.7) > CASTER 19.2 ⇒ 18.56 (-0.64) > CANNON 60 ⇒ 57 (-2) > > Every minute you have 6 melees, 6 casters and 1 cannon minion*. > > This means that you're losing 10.04 XP per minute. > > One cannon wave unshared is worth 363 XP. > > ...or 36 minutes of XP. > > So there you have it. It's not 72 minutes like in the OP (rather 72 waves). It was some 3am for me when I posted. > > *this changes over the game but XP pacing is largely irrelevant by the point you're having more cannons spawn and early game no cannon minions spawn which makes the changes less impactful. Well you skipped lots of steps. But the major mistake you ignored is the amount of XP that was buffed to the solo lanes, roughly 13xp per min. If you account for that it brings you closer to 1 cannon wave worth of XP at 20 mins. And again more importantly, LOL is game about turning small leads into big ones. So theoretically it's 1 wave at 19-20 mins but in reality in can easily be converted into 3 or 4 waves.
> [{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xAnL07MF,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-11-23T16:24:16.471+0000) > > And again more importantly, LOL is game about turning small leads into big ones. Which is why I keep telling people that the support item issue, isn't that they don't get free gold. It's that they can't swing their lead/power spike hardly at all. You don't get to have much opportunity for a better recall, with the current support items. The old ones, you could base and get a cheap item, that was still only slightly less than on par with most items other roles can buy. Now you literally need to wait to complete a quest, that doesn't even have to do with the actual game objective, only to complete it at roughly the same time as the enemy support. There is no better recall timing for supports anymore, they only get that if their ADC either shoves lane to turret...or your duo gets a lot of early kills with you.
: Good thing Morgana is a primarily mage and not a support, and not a part of this discussion. The removal of damage from spellthiefs was specifically intended to hurt mage "supports" who bring essentially nothing but damage and poor lane interaction.
> [{quoted}](name=GinoSoldier,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wAQGmFOh,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2019-11-23T18:19:40.035+0000) > > Good thing Morgana is a primarily mage and not a support, and not a part of this discussion. Not part of this discussion? This is about supports. Morgana has been considered a support for many seasons...since what, something like season 4? > The removal of damage from spellthiefs was specifically intended to hurt mage "supports" who bring essentially nothing but damage and poor lane interaction. If by mage you mean, she doesn't belong in bot lane supporting her ADC, then you're pretty wrong about that. As someone who has played Mid lane Morg since season 2, I can safely say she is just BETTER as a support, as she is a utility champion. Yes she makes a lot of damage, but her CD's and dps aren't exactly the highest. It's her high base damages and crowd control that really hurt. She isn't that bad compared to other mid laners(assuming you never miss your Q), but she is way better at supporting than she is at being mid lane. Also Morgana is a CC bot, just like Leona. The only differences are that she is squishy, and also has higher base damage. I don't see how morgana DOESN'T bring anything to lane. If anything, she is just stronger with an ally than on her own. Her black shield is literally one of the best utility spells in the game, for an ADC. You want to talk about unhealthy AP supports, Vel Koz/brand scale without having items, or multi purpose utility. I suppose being an enchanter support, and following people around, is fun and interactive gameplay, though.
: I play her on Adc role and she is far from op. She have a good delay between AA and engage and mobile adc wich are meta btw atm, shit on her really hard.
Her kit is pretty much only utility. Aside from her eventual unlimited range, and eventual crit chance...she has no ADC steroids, as all the good ADC have. Attack speed buffs(tristana), fluid kits(like lucian), innately high damage(jhin). Yes she has infinite range and crit chance, but those aside from crit chance...which has a cap...range isn't really the only thing an ADC needs to make damage. Think about it, all the other ADC get definitive boosts from their kits...when they buy items. She gets these boosts, regardless, and besides the idea of "infinite scaling", they are hardly steroids. I have no idea what Riot's intent was or direction with her kit, but she doesn't exactly have an ADC kit. As a support on the other hand, she has some form of most utilities that exist in the game. Speed buff coupled with untargetability, global AoE shield that is pretty much impossible to miss(it also can make damage). Her passive stacks infinitely, granting range and crit chance(why both?), she has a multipurpose heal...that both damages and can target anything(towers, wards, pretty sure even her own minions). And then there's her ranged "AoE" snare, which actually doesn't feel that strong on its own.
: Twisted Treeline R.I.P
I think they should've kept it, because there were groups of people that LOVED IT. It didn't hurt the game overall, only stopped FEW people from playing traditional 5v5 ranked. The only real downside of the 3v3 map, were that botters used it to level accounts in 3v3 bot games. People played it specifically because they liked the pace of it more, the different strategy(meaning...different from standard 5v5, because mostly teams only ran the funneling strategy), and because some peoples' computers just suck at handling the 5v5 mode. 3v3 was great! I didn't play it that often myself, but I did enjoy it from time to time. I'm certain that Riot just wants everyone to get addicted to their main LP ladder, as that generates them the most income. There was no real reason to remove it entirely.
: > [{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3eetulHw,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-22T07:57:58.879+0000) > > Once you get the 1000 gold from your support item, all it gives you is 3 gold per 10. 18 gold per minute. Oh so once you got 1000 gold+ 1500 gold worth of combat stats+sightstone and have 3 full completed items at 20 mins. Only getting a full free items worth of gold does seem weak... not really
> [{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3eetulHw,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-22T19:18:49.467+0000) > > Oh so once you got 1000 gold+ 1500 gold worth of combat stats+sightstone and have 3 full completed items at 20 mins. > > Only getting a full free items worth of gold does seem weak... > > not really Full free item comes with the drawback of not being able to snowball your own gold lead. It's pretty hard to complete your item for a meaningful amount of time, before the enemy support is able to complete theirs. It's not like in any other lane where if I manage to base with more gold than my enemy, that I can come back and play the lane with an item advantage. It's hard to get a distinct gold lead on the other support, and therefore the free upgrade is a lot less useful than it sounds. Yeah if we look at full item builds, support will have theirs complete a lot more cheaply. But it takes longer to get there now than ever, and it comes with the drawback of not being able to shift momentum hardly at all. Support relies on their ADC to be even more competent, and that's pretty ridiculous.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-23T07:25:45.687+0000) > > I don't understand how/why Riot seems to think Senna is balanced. She has more abilities in her kit than most champions ever have. > > AoE root with huge range, and a nice hitbox. AoE move speed buff for her team, that also makes them somewhat untargetable. She has a Q that can target basically anything, and the fact that it can even damage towers is ridiculous. She has a global shield(on a relatively short cd for a global ability btw), that has probably the fattest hitbox of any ability(although the damage portion is small). On top of that, she heals. > > Her kit is so overloaded, it doesn't have any one specific use...as most other champions do. Her kit is illogical for that reason. Not to mention, ok so she gets range from her passive...whatever...why does she get crit chance too? Why is it that just her passive alone, has about 3 different things happening in it. > > There's so much going on in her kit, that when you hover over the spells with the mouse...I doubt it even shows the majority of what's going on. > > I don't even care that her damage is big or that she gets to have a ton of range...that's called having a unique kit. But when they give her every possible tool in the game, plus getting multi tools between her passive, Q, and R, it's just absolutely bonkers. The champion isn't the most busted that's ever existed, but it might be one of the worst designed ones, in my opinion. Her kit is definitly not overloaded, her utility is actually lower than the likes of Soraka, Rakhan, nami or Janna. Supports have utility thats what they do, she does lack mobility, and thankfully has no dsahes like most new champs. The issue here is that she has carry level damage AND support level utility. She's 2 champions in one and excells at both roles. A jack of all trades should be master of none, but she masters both.
> [{quoted}](name=TwistedNightmare,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-11-23T17:14:27.391+0000) > > Her kit is definitly not overloaded, her utility is actually lower than the likes of Soraka, Rakhan, nami or Janna. Supports have utility thats what they do, she does lack mobility, and thankfully has no dsahes like most new champs. The issue here is that she has carry level damage AND support level utility. She's 2 champions in one and excells at both roles. A jack of all trades should be master of none, but she masters both. It certainly is overloaded. Notice I didn't say any of her abilities were overpowered, just that her kit is overloaded. Her passive has 3 effects, her Q has 2, her E has 2, and her R has 2. Her kit has so many different things going on, and no particular direction with any of them. And stacking free crit chance, on top of range? Why does she have both of those? Riot just slapped together a bunch of random abilities into one kit, and pumped out a champion. There's hardly any champions that have 10 different abilities in their kit, you can't say Senna ISN'T overloaded. Do I think she is the strongest character ever? Hell no. Yasuo right around release was probably one of the strongest characters. But Senna has more abilities and effects in her kit, than probably every champion in the game, and none of them have a niche or distinct play path.
: She has basically 3 Abilities. E barely even counts as an ability with its paltry 20% move speed and the fact it gets expressed maybe twice per game correctly. Sorry. But half the roster has more abilities and most of them don't have drawbacks attached. Like.... Kayn.... Shaco..... Akali..... Yasuo.... Vel Koz....Zed.... etc etc etc.... Her damage is SMALL. The only reason she ever gets a kill is because Q is an attack cancellation. hitting 3 X 300-400 damage can hurt. Meanwhile other champs are hitting SINGLE hits of 900+
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMIZQVbI,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-23T15:31:53.288+0000) > > She has basically 3 Abilities. E barely even counts as an ability with its paltry 20% move speed and the fact it gets expressed maybe twice per game correctly. Her passive alone, has 3 effects happening in it. Her Q has 2, her speed buff has 2, and so does her ult. I didn't say any of these abilities are specifically over powered, but her kit has more happening in it than basically any champion ever. I don't think any one ability she has is broken, but the combination of all of them...doesn't even have a logical direction. Riot just slapped a little of everything into her kit, and called it a day. > Sorry. But half the roster has more abilities and most of them don't have drawbacks attached. > > Like.... Kayn.... Shaco..... Akali..... Yasuo.... Vel Koz....Zed.... etc etc etc.... Besides akali, none of those champions are all that bad. Yasuo is kind of a gray area, because he scales into a monster. Having 3 second knockups, free penetration from his ult, and a crit chance modifier...which basically equates to better than a free item...he scales better than probably every other character (except maybe fiora). Akali's kit is also arguable pretty absurd, but that's because she'd get true stealth, a million jumps, massive burst, and hardly any drawbacks to her energy. Every other of those champions has a direction with their kit, and they do have drawbacks. ESPECIALLY Vel Koz. He's literally a stationary turret when he uses R, how is that NOT a drawback? > Her damage is SMALL. The only reason she ever gets a kill is because Q is an attack cancellation. hitting 3 X 300-400 damage can hurt. Meanwhile other champs are hitting SINGLE hits of 900+ She is a support, how big is her damage meant to get? It's obviously not that small, since people play her and out damage their ADC plenty often.
: Removing zzrot wouldn't kill the game. The item was very rarely purchased. I know some people are salty, but let's not kid ourselves.
> [{quoted}](name=WoonStruck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:48:03.877+0000) > > Removing zzrot wouldn't kill the game. The item was very rarely purchased. > > I know some people are salty, but let's not kid ourselves. It wasn't OP or anything at all. It was good situationally. Taking it out literally only lowers build potential, which only lowers potential strategy and decision making. The raptor cloak part of it was quite strong, though. That much I won't disagree with. But that would've been a simple fix with stat changes. Idk why Riot is focused on removing aspects of the game, instead of balancing others...or just adding more choices. They are very tunnel vision.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=00020003000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:31:21.123+0000) > > Double jungle used to actually be a decent strategy, and that got gutted by simply adding role selection. > > I wonder if pro players actually scrim different setups anymore AT ALL. I feel like they also have it in their heads that there is only one way to win nowadays. I wonder if there's ever been a meta that should've been better at the time, that just went unnoticed...because of all this forced meta crap. > > Also somewhat a side note, I'd noticed in the last couple months of the season...the meta was for some reason, highly point and click characters(nautilus being a prime example). That is such boring and un-interactive gameplay. I'm not sure that was an intentional meta, but it definitely existed. I bet the pros don't do anything like that. It's probably more valuable to just spend all your time refining the way riot clearly WANTS the game to be played down to the finest edge. If there was some different meta found riot would just "fix" it right after discovery anyway. Same thing happened not long ago when riot said they wanted to have more diversity in the bot lane carry role and the second mages and more started going down there riot "fixed" it so that since then until now it's 99 percent marksmen again.
Lol when they wanted to make mordekaiser a marksman, whatever that meant. I don't know why they wanted him to be a "marksman", and not simply a viable bot lane choice. They just love taking away options. There was a nice pro game of a team using a Heimerdinger jungle, then they grouped mid and shoved lane hard. That wasn't ideal strategy imo...but at least it was DIFFERENT. They shouldn't have been able to push so easily and end, for sure...but it just shows that it could make the game more interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAoZJolrYI&ab_channel=ESLAsia I'm actually pretty sure this game is a big part of why turrets have shields and silly/illogical resistances. It never made sense to me that specific lanes had stronger turrets than others. They literally added those, only to eliminate strategies.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=000200030000,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:15:39.475+0000) > > RNG dragons, now complimented only by making the map change on an RNG scale...allowing for immobile champions to have better rotational patterns IN AN RNG WAY. > > Role selection, jungle specific items, support specific items. Riot does all kinds of crap that is just...not good. They don't like strategy at all, which is interesting because this kind of game is meant to HAVE strategy. They love their stale duo bot lane meta. They don't want players to go into ranked and have to communicate anything extra. There's so little to learn in terms of strategy to this game. The stale duo bot lane meta is at the core of why this game is so unflinching and stale. The most popular lane in terms of champs and pick rates, makes people feel good when they dodge a skill shot and right click down for a penta kill etc. Riot enforces this every patch and every season so you never see different strats or diversity, never see supports changing, never see 2, 1 , 2 lane setups, never see different carries NOTHING. Watching a dota 2 pro game draft and comparing it a league one is so sad. This game FEELS good to play but your right, they just try and kill any strategy or diversity.
Double jungle used to actually be a decent strategy, and that got gutted by simply adding role selection. I wonder if pro players actually scrim different setups anymore AT ALL. I feel like they also have it in their heads that there is only one way to win nowadays. I wonder if there's ever been a meta that should've been better at the time, that just went unnoticed...because of all this forced meta crap. Also somewhat a side note, I'd noticed in the last couple months of the season...the meta was for some reason, highly point and click characters(nautilus being a prime example). That is such boring and un-interactive gameplay. I'm not sure that was an intentional meta, but it definitely existed.
: About the support item problem..
I'm going to keep saying this in every thread You can't swing your power/lead, if you don't get gold to do so. Support is required to wait and finish a quest, before they can swing their power...and at that point, the other support isn't far behind. At least before, if you kill the enemy support before anyone made 450g, you'd be able to back and start generating a gold lead...now you have to generate 500g just from the one item, and the enemy support is likely stacking gold in a similar way, and thus will get their spike at a similar moment. And also the mana regen on the AP item? What do supports buy for so little gold that will give them decent mana regen or decent overall stats? Doran's rings?
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=alvKb9nA,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T11:34:27.801+0000) > > Well if you figure out how, send me a PM or something lol. I've been in that boat before, but I admit I deserved it in a way. I know I'd broken their rules and ignored the warnings...but it is totally scummy that they don't give you your stuff back upon reforming, even over a year later. It makes reforming...totally pointless. > > I'm pretty sure there's nothing to be done though, aside from hiring a lawyer which would probably end up costing more than the account is worth anyways, and might not even result in a win...because again, they can ban anyone and without reason. If that happened, yes I would let you know. I just took the easy road and stopped communicating with a holes in my games, and avoided being banned and lose thousands of dollars. It is the safest way to go imo, but I still want to get my two cents in on this system I don't like.
I've gone as far as talking less, if at all in my games. Sensitivity is different for everyone, while I was toxic before...it was mostly criticism. Now I get to worry about saying anything offensive to anyone. At that point...why even use the chat? Pings are more than enough to communicate most in game scenarios...but they aren't as fun as banter, or just starting a random conversation. I'm also pretty sure that this game has ruined me from buying any content for any game. I bought aesthetics, that I'll never get back. Why would I ever do that again? Also for some reason, Riot thinks it's less toxic for someone like Tyler1 to flame his team to an audience of 40k viewers, than it is for him to flame to an audience of 9 players.
: > [{quoted}](name=Dynikus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-22T21:01:22.610+0000) > > zz'rot was a terrible item that promoted an unhealthy way to play the game, and the removal of it only makes the game better. > As for the rest, _it's day 3 of preseason_. Every change they've made is subject to substantial change. Macro and splitting is unhealthy? I guess if you don't just want to go fiesta NA-ARAM down mid and right click "outplay" in teamfights it's unhealthy. This is the problem with league. Riot enforcing stale meta and undiverse gameplay.
> [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:10:12.128+0000) > This is the problem with league. Riot enforcing stale meta and undiverse gameplay. RNG dragons, now complimented only by making the map change on an RNG scale...allowing for immobile champions to have better rotational patterns IN AN RNG WAY. Role selection, jungle specific items, support specific items. Riot does all kinds of crap that is just...not good. They don't like strategy at all, which is interesting because this kind of game is meant to HAVE strategy. They love their stale duo bot lane meta. They don't want players to go into ranked and have to communicate anything extra. There's so little to learn in terms of strategy to this game.
: Am I the only one who loves everything about pre-season?
AP supports feel bad to play(at least they do for me so far), they gutted their mana regen choice. The old item was a 450g purchase for a small amount of mana regen...now AP supports do what for the same price? Buy Doran's rings? Also supports don't have the same option to snowball lane leads, like any other role can. If you recall as a support, you don't have as much gold in the early game to buy notable items. Getting a free item =/= being able to flexibly spend your gold. Also the baron/elder buff thing. I don't think people ever questioned Baron's game ending potential...because it was somewhat countered by the true damage that the elder was giving. That and, the elder is also easier/safer to take...it didn't do as much damage to your team as baron would, didn't really require a more dedicated tank to take it...and because of that, the buff for baron should've also been stronger. Although, I have no idea if they changed the damage values or other numbers for baron/elder...I just know they changed the buffs. EDIT: Although I do love some of the changes. The flexibility of the lethality items is nice(although sanguine blade probably needs nerfs). I like the visual effects, and changing up the map is always nice because it changes the flow of gameplay. I also like that both sides of the jungle now grant level 3, because it should allow for certain junglers to be more viable than they were. Happy Thanksgiving!
Ηuawei (EUNE)
: Support items is like you're invited to a party but you're not allowed to drink or eat
The support role is now officially the secretary of the business world. You're in charge of handling certain things for the higher ups, but those tasks are pretty lame overall compared to what the bosses are doing. I don't know how having a role that is specifically forced to clear vision, and offer utility(aka just adding spells to another player's kit), is fun or interactive. Seems like the other roles actually get to buy items and make damage, meanwhile supports are clearing pink wards and getting exploded by people who actually have gold. Anyone who argues "well support gets free upgrades". How do you snowball your lead as a support? What do you do to compensate for the loss of mana regen on the AP item? There is such a thing as power swings, from basing at certain timings...now support just randomly gets stronger from achieving a silly quest...they also can't snowball their gold generation hardly at all.
: Bots are definitely back over the past week
Blame the loss of the 3v3 map. Riot is pushing the players to play the mainstream game modes, more specifically ranked. That's where they make their money, and also where they get people hooked on "getting LP".
: > [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=alvKb9nA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-11-23T11:24:18.613+0000) > > Sadly they didn't "steal" your money or anyone else's. While it is pretty scummy that they do this, they have every right to. When you agree to the terms of service, first of all you agree that the account is separate from your person, and that all of the content of said account belongs to them. They also say that they can ban you for breaking the rules. What's even more interesting, that I don't hear people talk about...is that the ToS actually says somewhere, that they can ban you even without a reason AT ALL. > > It is pretty ridiculous that a video game has a life long punishment. That's a little serious for something most people use as downtime. > > TL;DR, Riot wants you to start over on a new account, and buy back all your skins/champions. It's a great way for them to double up on their money. They don't care about how much you spent, or the amount of time you've played. All they care about is "upholding their ToS"(whatever that means to them nowadays), and making money. That is why I make my case. It is in so many words, a form of abuse to the consumer and is stealing. I know what it says in the ToU, but there must be a way to hold them accountable for this baloney. Its bs man.
Well if you figure out how, send me a PM or something lol. I've been in that boat before, but I admit I deserved it in a way. I know I'd broken their rules and ignored the warnings...but it is totally scummy that they don't give you your stuff back upon reforming, even over a year later. It makes reforming...totally pointless. I'm pretty sure there's nothing to be done though, aside from hiring a lawyer which would probably end up costing more than the account is worth anyways, and might not even result in a win...because again, they can ban anyone and without reason.
: Saying Riot banning people is stealing is considered Trolling?
Sadly they didn't "steal" your money or anyone else's. While it is pretty scummy that they do this, they have every right to. When you agree to the terms of service, first of all you agree that the account is separate from your person, and that all of the content of said account belongs to them. They also say that they can ban you for breaking the rules. What's even more interesting, that I don't hear people talk about...is that the ToS actually says somewhere, that they can ban you even without a reason AT ALL. It is pretty ridiculous that a video game has a life long punishment. That's a little serious for something most people use as downtime. TL;DR, Riot wants you to start over on a new account, and buy back all your skins/champions. It's a great way for them to double up on their money. They don't care about how much you spent, or the amount of time you've played. All they care about is "upholding their ToS"(whatever that means to them nowadays), and making money.
: So...battles against the AI are just robot players?
It's because all of the 3v3 botting accounts. They removed 3v3, and that's where bots would go to get levels. Now they go to arams and the 5v5 bot games. Riot only considers how they can get people to play ranked, they don't really think about much else.
: >Not that Riot would ever let the ranked ladder test it to see, anyways. I mean you were the one that claimed it doesnt have to be a 2v1 as in this strategy is superior and people will take it blindly and drop the other one. >Actually I see plenty of mages continue to farm, unless something like nautilus shows up with a point and click ability. Besides, this is only level 1 we're talking about. The second Thresh blows his hook/flay level one, you can just start making trades/at least getting EXP even if you can't yet get gold. A few creeps of gold loss, is hardly anything at all. Theres literally nothing i can say here which wont make me sound like im flaming you or being toxic, so i just wont comment on this because its extremely basic knowledge. >The traditional jungler only falls behind if they HAVE to do full clears. They shouldn't even be full clearing their jungle anyways, that's not interactive at all. Some junglers are hard farming junglers. Full clearing doesnt have to happen from camp 1 to camp 6 no ganking in between. Pathing allows players to farm while ganking in between camps. >What does one jungler at level 3, do against two junglers at level 3? Again, the traditional jungler doing full clears isn't interactive, they really only lose the consistency to hit level 6 right around the time buffs respawn. You're referring to only the first clear theres more than just the first clear involved in a game. >I see nothing wrong with having more strategies and requiring more communication. I dont either but there has to be a strategy that can compete with the current one. Having another strategy for the sake of having another one does nothing. >The warding WOULD change. One person can permanently ward their own lane's river bush. However, Support/ADC are pretty much stuck in bot lane for the early part of the game. They don't get to always freely ward anywhere they want. Bot laner can ward their river, the two junglers can ward the two sides of mid (or one can deep ward), and the top laner can ward their own lane also. I totally disagree that vision would remain the same...the ideal warding locations would be the same, but timings would be totally different. You do know that supports should naturally be warding more aggressively (deep wards in the enemy jungle) So their warding isnt restricted to just "next to bot lane" which is why junglers are able to focus on warding top side of mid lane or bot side of mid lane while mid lane wards the other side and top wards top side. There are no breaks in warding when players are competent. Now if we're referring to low elo thats a different story.
> [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Lks3uu2E,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T10:38:59.950+0000) > > I mean you were the one that claimed it doesnt have to be a 2v1 as in this strategy is superior and people will take it blindly and drop the other one. I mean yes, I think that other strategies can work. I also believe Riot has no intention of ALLOWING them, even if they are "better" situationally. They always reinforce metas/strategies, you can't really pick double jungle anymore. Role selection is a thing. > Theres literally nothing i can say here which wont make me sound like im flaming you or being toxic, so i just wont comment on this because its extremely basic knowledge. Making a comment that knowledge is basic, is somehow not toxic? I suppose I'm some kind of moron for not knowing something, that you clearly know better. But great, the conversation was going well until you decided to develop a false sense of superiority. So I'm just going to do myself a favor and ignore the rest of your post. I am not a low elo player by any means. I've also played longer than your account has existed(maybe you're on a smurf). Actually, I've played different roles throughout the seasons, and gotten higher win rates and to higher elo than you are currently(on every role I've hit at least plat). I've gotten to Plat by maining each role in different seasons, and didn't require 600 ranked games with a near 50% win rate(coin flip) to do so. If you really think that a player can't win/tie/do decently in a 1v2 lane on certain champions, you should go watch clips of when professional teams would do lane swaps...right from the start of the game. They'd intentionally take 1v2 lanes, because other roles/lanes would benefit more, because it would result in early towers and different forms of map pressure. Hell, there was actually a time when the ADC role was specifically in mid lane, and the APC was the bot laner. Jungle wasn't always a thing, it was a developed and logical strategy because having multiple people in a lane just absorbs EXP and gold...and being able to roam added another level to the depth of gameplay.
: >That's only partially true. Yes they would get zoned, but only because traditionally it's a 2v2 lane, and only one team would turn it to a 1v2 lane. It doesn't mean the lane shouldn't turn into a 1v1 lane. Well this strat would have to be better than the current one which has 2 in bot lane for the other team to change it up as well. So you have to assume this strat vs the current one to see which is better. >Also APC(more specifically control mages) do have pretty good odds of farming against two players, at most stages of the game. No they dont. When thresh ganks mid do you see syndra continue farming? So why would you expect Syndra to be able to farm in a LONGER lane than mid lane. >I mean that's already true even for the traditional jungler. Yea but you're not intentionally putting your jungler behind to get your support "ahead". >Technically speaking, if all of the camps are cleared, there's less reason for the enemy to even be in your jungle in the first place. Who said he needs to be in your jungle? He can now counter gank any of your ganks and they automatically sway in his favor because of his level and gold advantage. >Plus what's to stop the double jungle from ganking the mid lane from more than one angle? They can easily roam together...they only can't clear the same camps together. This would require high amount of communication to the point where they'd need to be duo. And even in that case where you do catch the mid laner they can burst one of the jungler and trade 1 for 1 in a 1v3. Using 3 resources for a 1 for 1 trade isnt worth. >Actually with two junglers, that means your jungle entrances also are more likely to get covered by wards as well. Support has to stick to bot lane early game that much more, but they can battle for vision on a totally different scale if there are two roaming lanes. Well assuming competent laners the warding wouldnt change due to in both cases 5 people are warding. This doesnt change because one of those 5 people changes where they are on the map.
> [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Lks3uu2E,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T10:13:22.360+0000) > > Well this strat would have to be better than the current one which has 2 in bot lane for the other team to change it up as well. So you have to assume this strat vs the current one to see which is better. Not that Riot would ever let the ranked ladder test it to see, anyways. > No they dont. When thresh ganks mid do you see syndra continue farming? So why would you expect Syndra to be able to farm in a LONGER lane than mid lane. Actually I see plenty of mages continue to farm, unless something like nautilus shows up with a point and click ability. Besides, this is only level 1 we're talking about. The second Thresh blows his hook/flay level one, you can just start making trades/at least getting EXP even if you can't yet get gold. A few creeps of gold loss, is hardly anything at all. > Yea but you're not intentionally putting your jungler behind to get your support "ahead". The traditional jungler only falls behind if they HAVE to do full clears. They shouldn't even be full clearing their jungle anyways, that's not interactive at all. > Who said he needs to be in your jungle? He can now counter gank any of your ganks and they automatically sway in his favor because of his level and gold advantage. What does one jungler at level 3, do against two junglers at level 3? Again, the traditional jungler doing full clears isn't interactive, they really only lose the consistency to hit level 6 right around the time buffs respawn. > This would require high amount of communication to the point where they'd need to be duo. And even in that case where you do catch the mid laner they can burst one of the jungler and trade 1 for 1 in a 1v3. Using 3 resources for a 1 for 1 trade isnt worth. I see nothing wrong with having more strategies and requiring more communication. Other games have that, why not League? This game plays out pretty damn linearly as it is, I'm surprised people can't get out of bronze/silver, there's not really much to learn strategy wise. > Well assuming competent laners the warding wouldnt change due to in both cases 5 people are warding. This doesnt change because one of those 5 people changes where they are on the map. The warding WOULD change. One person can permanently ward their own lane's river bush. However, Support/ADC are pretty much stuck in bot lane for the early part of the game. They don't get to always freely ward anywhere they want. Bot laner can ward their river, the two junglers can ward the two sides of mid (or one can deep ward), and the top laner can ward their own lane also. I totally disagree that vision would remain the same...the ideal warding locations would be the same, but timings would be totally different. Plus the consistency of being able to fight over scuttles. The duo jungle would also both hit 3 before either of the two bot laners. They'd be 3 at the same time as the enemy jungle. Double smite for the more prioritized dragons.
: >Also support likely wouldn't lose gold from this transition, only the traditional jungler would lose exp/gold. So Pros: Support gets more gold/exp Cons: Jungler gets less gold/exp Adc gets less gold/exp >But what that jungler loses, the solo lane would also gain. This is false because the solo laner will defintely get zoned from level 1. Its the same reason why the winning bot lane goes top to take top tower. Because the enemy top cant contest a 2v1. >Plus with excess junglers, it means more time in the enemy jungle/more time ganking lanes. It also means catching either one of them alone = free 300g because they're going to both be behind in levels compared to the enemy jungle. >They'd still achieve gold somehow. So in some magic way they'll find their gold. Lets just make that stretch of logic with no actual way of getting that gold.
> [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Lks3uu2E,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-23T09:58:00.367+0000) > > This is false because the solo laner will defintely get zoned from level 1. Its the same reason why the winning bot lane goes top to take top tower. Because the enemy top cant contest a 2v1. That's only partially true. Yes they would get zoned, but only because traditionally it's a 2v2 lane, and only one team would turn it to a 1v2 lane. It doesn't mean the lane shouldn't turn into a 1v1 lane. Also APC(more specifically control mages) do have pretty good odds of farming against two players, at most stages of the game. > It also means catching either one of them alone = free 300g because they're going to both be behind in levels compared to the enemy jungle. I mean that's already true even for the traditional jungler. Part of jungling is to not get caught out, that's a skill thing. Technically speaking, if all of the camps are cleared, there's less reason for the enemy to even be in your jungle in the first place. Plus what's to stop the double jungle from ganking the mid lane from more than one angle? They can easily roam together...they only can't clear the same camps together. EDIT: Actually with two junglers, that means your jungle entrances also are more likely to get covered by wards as well. Support has to stick to bot lane early game that much more, but they can battle for vision on a totally different scale if there are two roaming lanes.
: Yea but then you have your jungler and support both losing gold and exp and also your adc is getting zoned from exp and gold as well.
> [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Lks3uu2E,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-23T09:39:01.675+0000) > > Yea but then you have your jungler and support both losing gold and exp and also your adc is getting zoned from exp and gold as well. Also support likely wouldn't lose gold from this transition, only the traditional jungler would lose exp/gold. But what that jungler loses, the solo lane would also gain. Plus with excess junglers, it means more time in the enemy jungle/more time ganking lanes. They'd still achieve gold somehow.
Mr Sa1nt (NA)
: Double Jungle? Support Changes, and The Jungle
While it's true the ADC would suffer, the support suffers by staying there also. It could mean that having the ADC go bot lane, just isn't the real meta. Possibly that the APC would return to bot, and the ADC would go mid...like it was years ago. APC are a lot safer in solo lanes, and their base damages are enough to scare off most underleveled champs. Unfortunately though, there is that truth that people would get punished for trying to change the meta. Riot has enforced an adc/support bot lane for YEARS. If one team decided to not use a dual bot lane, the other one would likely just zone them off farm as Chainman said. But that's where the rest of the meta would change too, potentially.
: >APC supports just weaker Bingo you hit the nail on the head. Mage support took a huge hit from this. >If you're trying to insist that "no one being helped" means that nothing changed, then no to that. I wasnt trying to insist this. >The other roles didn't get stronger, support just got weaker in comparison. Bingo again. Mainly the ADC isnt as oppressed by the supports harass or tankiness in the case of leona and naut. Finally the last type of support, utility or enchanter supports. They benefit from this despite actually being nerfed. They're hit the least hardest out of the 3 types. Meaning they can now outsustain mages poke due to the dmg being lowered and tanks cant sustain back up any poke they or their adc apply due to relic shield not healing anymore. overall the role of support got weaker. But inside the support role itself enchanter supports weren't as reliant on gold income as the rest which means they can still provide their benefits with minimal loss.
> [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BYb28s68,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T09:33:10.652+0000) > > I wasnt trying to insist this. Sorry, just had to assume you were. You didn't offer responses, only asked questions. It felt like a setup in a way. > Bingo again. Mainly the ADC isnt as oppressed by the supports harass or tankiness in the case of leona and naut. ADC will still get pretty oppressed by jungle ganks, and Top lane/mid still get power spikes earlier than ADC does. I don't think it will benefit the ADC that much, especially with their one helper being weaker in more cases than not. > Finally the last type of support, utility or enchanter supports. They benefit from this despite actually being nerfed. They're hit the least hardest out of the 3 types. Meaning they can now outsustain mages poke due to the dmg being lowered and tanks cant sustain back up any poke they or their adc apply due to relic shield not healing anymore. I have a feeling that supports like thresh will do fine in this meta, just because their all in is so powerful. The duration of the CC, coupled with the potential to set up for ganks. Meanwhile there isn't an AP support answer to the melee tanks, and thresh+an adc can definitely blow up a Janna. But I agree that the enchanter supports might be stronger. Mainly because their mana sustain already tends to be good, their spells aren't super expensive. They will just always take biscuits, and slowly chisel down other supports. Sounds pretty linear though, if I'm right.
: What if... omnistone granted two random keystones at once?
I don't know how they don't have better ideas than omnistone. RNG is terrible, crit is already plenty more RNG than a game of "strategy" should need. Omnistone just shouldn't exist, the concept is silly, the RNG is even worse. I wouldn't mind it being in the game, if there were more rune options. But at the moment, you select 1 keystone, and 5 other runes. Back in the day, you had to actually pick a path for your masteries, and while each individual mastery had low impact...overall, your complete options actually had pretty big impact. Idk whose idea is was when they changed the dragons to be RNG, and it's only worse now. At least years ago, dragons gave gold...so there was a distinct timing to trade dragons for turrets, farm, etc. Now that dragons are randomized, they have random gold values. And with them effecting the map now...that means certain immobile champions have better rotation options...AT RANDOM.
: We be like, Zzrot/Ohmwrecker are niche but that's fine keep it. Oministone is niche so it's garbage.
I haven't tested omnistone myself but...the issue with a bad keystone rune, is that it does effect gameplay quite a lot...and there are only a few of them. As for Ohmwrecker and ZZrot, those items were niche...but there are also a ton of items you can build in place of them,. There are only a handful of keystones to pick from. I will miss those items though, there was no reason to remove them entirely. They weren't useless, and they weren't great either. Although ohmwrecker was pretty bad mostly...it actually felt really useful against the double nexus turrets, when trying to close out a game. ZZrot obviously had a lot more potential, being able to backdoor as a tank...felt pretty good, but not good enough to ruin the game. Riot should really be adding options, not taking all of the options away. As it is, the game plays out pretty linearly, and the strategy aspect seems extremely limited.
Comentários de Rioters
: So what you think is no one got helped?
I think support got weakened quite a bit. A free upgrade pales in comparison, to being able to snowball your gold advantage by having better recall options. Worse gold generation, coupled with expensive mana regen choices, makes a lot of the APC supports just weaker. If you're trying to insist that "no one being helped" means that nothing changed, then no to that. The other roles didn't get stronger, support just got weaker in comparison.
: Im curious as to who do you think Riot was helping with these changes? Ill let you choose from a list. 1. Tank Supports 2. Enchanter Supports 3. Mage Supports 4. ADCs
: >Support not having gold means that it can't do these other things as effectively as any other roles. Explain to me what these "other things" you're referring to. Is it these? >All champions can ward, remove wards, take turrets, rotate, etc.
Yes, those. I mean "other things" as in, things that aren't directly you playing against other humans. Not to say support doesn't do anything, obviously it will always impact those same areas, and that impact is relevant...vision battles are important, roaming is important. But support will have a harder time denying the enemy ADC of CS, they won't damage towers as much, etc. Support needs to have some power too, and if they don't get gold, they will feel weaker than all the other roles.
: >Why is it okay that one role isn't allowed to participate in the game after lane phase. Who said this was the case? Utility doesnt require gold to impact the outcome of the game. >You never had as much gold as everyone else, but you could have a full build that wasn't damage based and let you contribute in some way beyond being a ward bot, but that is pretty much gone because you'll struggle to build even the cheapest items after maxing out the items. There's a lot of factors here coming into play. How well you do? How well your team does? Plating? Kill participation? Dewarding? >It's a 1000g and if you could spawn into the game with the tier 3 item equipped and get the 3g/10 from the first second that's only another 540g over 30 minutes, neither of those things are even possible so its actually much less. Im referring to the old support items. How much gold did you get from them per game. If i remember correctly it was best 1200g if you were doing well. 800g if you werent. So its really more normalized now and poured into your support item. >Even if you only proc at half efficiency with the old items, with paying for the tier 2 up grade and nerfed their stats a little you would still be better off. Are you arguing that you're losing stats or you're not getting as much gold? Because you said earlier you werent earning as much gold. When in fact you're earning the same gold. But now your forced to spend that gold to invest into your support item whereas in the past that gold could be spent on other items.
> [{quoted}](name=Chainman3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BYb28s68,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T07:48:29.635+0000) > > Who said this was the case? Utility doesnt require gold to impact the outcome of the game. > > There's a lot of factors here coming into play. > How well you do? > How well your team does? > Plating? > Kill participation? > Dewarding? These are also all things, that EVERY OTHER ROLE can do. Obviously in perfect gameplay, support will always have a purpose...but I don't think that playing practically a different game than everyone else...is really entertaining or fun. All champions can ward, remove wards, take turrets, rotate, etc. Support not having gold means that it can't do these other things as effectively as any other roles.
: Kindred never deserves buffs. Nobody likes the champion except the people who play her. She completely denies playmaking while being able to make plays herself. She needs a rework. Preferably one that actually emphasizes the dual aspect of death she's supposed to be...not just a weird passive damage source on one ability that you use more for the primary champion's CDR either way.
Regardless of who likes/dislikes a champion, there shouldn't be champions that are almost unplayable. That's not really the topic here. If a champion like her gets an indirect buff, that isn't a bad thing. Just the issue is that, other junglers that were already strong...some of them also just got better. Vi/kha are definitely stronger, since Vi has her W for really great single target clear...and Kha has his isolation bonus. They have a "better" early game, which means their late game just comes sooner.
: everyone keeps crying about the gold loss to support items
The mana regen felt pretty bad for me as well. You can still buy mana regen, you can even rush mana regen items...but nothing beats snowballing your gold per minute, while also attaining a stat like mana regen... and it costed only 450g or something small. Most of the decent mana regen items, aren't nearly as cheap. I played as morgana, and would constantly go OOM, without making much damage. Even while landing most of my abilities.
: The only junglers that buffing gromp helped are ones that are already being played... Heavy ganking could be considered slightly more rewarding because now you don't have to waste time clearing Krugs to remain relevant, especially with how much more important dragons are. Being a farm jungle hardly benefits you with the decreased respawn time when you're forced to prioritize bot/mid all game to try to ensure dragon control.
I imagine Kindred is slightly better, since her raptor clear was pretty awful. She wasn't really ever being played for a long time, at least not overly successfully. I'm sure you're right though too, because Xin was already getting played...Vi was already good, kha, etc. I'm just certain that there are some that did get indirect buffs.
iiRebs (NA)
: Lethality changes were a giant failure
The best part about the lethality items, are that now you can build lethality and have more flexible paths. The bad part is, that most of the lethality items are weaker overall. Also, Sanguine Blade apparently gets built every game. If I'm reading it right, isn't that item meant for dueling? Hard for assassins to use that type of item, inside a grouped team fight.
Yenn (NA)
: The Gromp change is complete non-sense
I think that gromp giving more is a good thing, as it opens up some of the more single target junglers again. Or at least champions that had a hard time clearing the AoE camps. This means certain junglers are more viable early again, and wasn't exactly nerfing the junglers that were better at clearing raptors.
: Senna needs nerfs
I don't understand how/why Riot seems to think Senna is balanced. She has more abilities in her kit than most champions ever have. AoE root with huge range, and a nice hitbox. AoE move speed buff for her team, that also makes them somewhat untargetable. She has a Q that can target basically anything, and the fact that it can even damage towers is ridiculous. She has a global shield(on a relatively short cd for a global ability btw), that has probably the fattest hitbox of any ability(although the damage portion is small). On top of that, she heals. Her kit is so overloaded, it doesn't have any one specific use...as most other champions do. Her kit is illogical for that reason. Not to mention, ok so she gets range from her passive...whatever...why does she get crit chance too? Why is it that just her passive alone, has about 3 different things happening in it. There's so much going on in her kit, that when you hover over the spells with the mouse...I doubt it even shows the majority of what's going on. I don't even care that her damage is big or that she gets to have a ton of range...that's called having a unique kit. But when they give her every possible tool in the game, plus getting multi tools between her passive, Q, and R, it's just absolutely bonkers. The champion isn't the most busted that's ever existed, but it might be one of the worst designed ones, in my opinion.
: Let's settle this once and for all! Is the support item change a buff or a nerf? - An Analysis -
Well I only had to play one game of support to notice that as an AP support, I felt just weaker in general. My ADC made 12k damage, enemy adc made 16k, but we were the winning team...and were quite ahead. Meanwhile as AP morg, I have only 8k damage. That's about 4k less than I'd have normally at the same point of the game....without being fed or having a lead. I felt like any lead I got on the enemy support, was extremely minor. It felt like if my ADC wouldn't hard shove the lane, I'd be punished and starved from gold(luckily my ADC was shoving, and I could auto the enemy tower). I was distinctly weaker in comparison to all members of the team...and weaker than any other Morgana game I've EVER played. Enemy support was even weaker than I was, by a lot. They lost their lane, and I didn't feel like it meant anything at all to my own gameplay. I could've been losing lane, and aside from less gold generation...I probably would've still had hardly any damage on the board. But my CC score was pretty high, way higher than everyone else's (although morgana has one of the highest CC kits in the game anyways). So I was landing my abilities, was ahead in gold, CC, everything... but making low impact damage wise. Doesn't seem at all balanced to me. That and I noted, that since I can't spend the small amount of gold to upgrade my AP support item...I didn't have a lot of mana regen. Which is fine, except that a lot of the efficient mana regen items cost more than the 450g I could spend on my first back. I would go OOM after using only a few abilities. What's even worse, is with that little scoop they added to the side lanes...enemies can now dodge abilities easier, they have more options for moving around potentially. My lane felt more passive, I felt like I had almost no gold, and that I was weak in damage. Didn't matter if I landed the majority of my binds.
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Mr Sa1nt

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