Comentários de Rioters
Revech (NA)
: (1) "This is not true, and it makes ardent censor an extremely good buy on Yuumi. The attack speed buff from zoom stacks with ardent censor, giving you something like a 60% attack speed buff with 0 AP. Thats pretty great." Final attack speed cannot go above the cap of 2.5 attacks per second. [Attack speed Wiki](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_speed) There is an attack speed cap and most adcs including many other meta champs are going to build attack speed as it's already built into many if not most of the a/d items causing it to overcap attack speed. Irregardless this still makes Yuumi more of a glorified keystone then she was before. (2) The changes to her E have reduced her ability to mitigate range advantages by spacing out zooms as well as cement her role as a buff. The changes to her E haven't just 'reduced' her 'range advantages' if they ever could be called that, they've made her 'zoomies' E relevant as a buff and irrelevant as a viable speed boost, for any type of engage or escape. I'm just going to cite the Wiki on Champ slows (majority of which are vastly stronger that yuumi's Q) and the wiki on champions with a 'dash' ability; of which the vast majority of meta champs have a dash. In summary the vast majority of champs have slows and dashes or speed boosts of some sort that make yuumi's now nerfed Q and nerfed E completely useless abilities, and that's my point. [League Wiki SLOW](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Types_of_Crowd_Control#Slow) [League Wiki DASH](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Dash) (3) cement her role as a buff. Gotta point out here I agree these changes cement her role as a buff or "glorified keystone" but I do disagree on your point above regarding the added usefulness of the attack speed buff.
> [{quoted}](name=Revech,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bH6WvJw1,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-12-07T04:39:10.468+0000) > > Final attack speed cannot go above the cap of 2.5 attacks per second. What does this have to do with the price of tea in china? Do you think quoting basic game knowledge somehow means that the item - an early game item - is somehow a terrible buy on yuumi? A marksman will usually not buy 2.0ASP worth of attack speed - they hit 1.8 at most come level 18, and a brief but massive ASP boost in the form of an ardent zoom will be a fantastic burst of power. Regardless, ardent censor is a cheap item and can be sold later on for better items as needed. Just because an item might become less useful later on does not mean it is never useful. Such thinking is shallow and doesnt respect the game. > The changes to her E haven't just 'reduced' her 'range advantages' if they ever could be called that, they've made her 'zoomies' E relevant as a buff and irrelevant as a viable speed boost, for any type of engage or escape. I'm just going to cite the Wiki on Champ slows (majority of which are vastly stronger that yuumi's Q) and the wiki on champions with a 'dash' ability; of which the vast majority of meta champs have a dash. In summary the vast majority of champs have slows and dashes or speed boosts of some sort that make yuumi's now nerfed Q and nerfed E completely useless abilities, and that's my point. I dont think you even understand just quite what youre talking about here. Do you know why Melee+Yuumi is such a powerful combination? Its because Yuumi enabled those champions to catch up and stick on ranged champions, mitigating the inherent advantage of range. For ranged carries she was on, well timed zooms were able to allow her carry to quickly close gaps and secure kills that would otherwise be out of reach. The changes, by removing charges, have harmed this particular trait. Its not a bad thing, mind you. These changes will have a positive impact on Yuumi as a whole by reducing her general utility.
Revech (NA)
: Ardent censor accomplished the same thing as the new attack speed buff on Yuumi's "zoomies" E; which now makes ardent censor useless on Yuumi. The increased mana cost of her E now makes yuumi one of the most mana intensive champions in the game, this makes seraphs embrace a mandatory (most likely 1st) item. The nerf to E 'zoomies' of 10% removes any chance of using it to catch enemies or escape either while detached (ok ur dead then) or for speeding up your partner to escape, now 'zoomies' just makes you or your partner walk slightly faster. Since the nerfs to Q, it now is nothing more then a tool to gather gold during super early game (between detaching to proc autos). Considering a majority of the current meta champs have dashes yas, kass, ornn, cam, renekton, lucian, etc, etc or with even a minuscule amount of tenacity, her Q slow is almost laughable. Part of the fun of playing yuumi was for example attaching to a darius landing a q slow, following that up with a 'zoomies' to get darius in range for his pull. Now essentially catching anyone through a q slow or e speed up is just not going to be a functional mechanic for Yuumi due to the nerfs. The 5 second cd on her w means you cant block for example a morg or senna stun (outplay) then reattach, because 5 seconds is plenty of time for ultra squishy yuumi to die 5x over; you'll just have to stay attached as it's not worth the risk. Sure you could detach, but yuumi is slow (especially with her meta build of no boots) and any half decent morg, senna, etc is going to land her stun (she was already tough to play against most of the meta supports like pyke, blitz, naut, etc) and yes you will 100% die if that 5 second immobilize punishment procs; shield passive or no shield passive. I honestly just don't understand when she has the lowest win rate in the game, why she's being nerfed at all? I can think of 229 other champs above her in win rate that could use with nerfs.
> [{quoted}](name=Revech,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bH6WvJw1,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-07T02:06:54.583+0000) > > Ardent censor accomplished the same thing as the new attack speed buff on Yuumi's "zoomies" E; which now makes ardent censor useless on Yuumi. This is not true, and it makes ardent censor an extremely good buy on Yuumi. The attack speed buff from zoom stacks with ardent censor, giving you something like a 60% attack speed buff with 0 AP. Thats pretty great. As for itemization... {{item:3850}} into {{item:3285}} into {{item:3040}} with mana flow band will be the starting items now. She needs the mana and CDR these items offer to function properly, and a 5 second burst heal that gives movement speed AND attack speed is pretty damn good. The changes to her E have reduced her ability to mitigate range advantages by spacing out zooms as well as cement her role as a buff.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-12-05T08:22:18.036+0000) > > **This goes against _EVERYTHING_ Yuumi is supposed to be.** A time limit makes 0 sense from a gameplay standpoint, and if youre going to go down that route why not just make her into IO from dota 2 and turn her E into a toggle that deals %HP damage to her and gives her ally increased mana and HP regen based on hers? No it really doesn't. She's still gonna do everything she does now. She'll just have limits on how long she can do it.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-12-06T21:07:25.335+0000) > > No it really doesn't. She's still gonna do everything she does now. She'll just have limits on how long she can do it. Except that time limit is going to be an arbitrary "YOU CANT DO YOUR JOB" that adds a meaningless barrier to a champion that is designed around being attatched. Imagine if sona had to wait for her current song to end before she played a new one. Or if Nami had to return to the river after casting any ability. It simply doesnt make sense from a gameplay perspective and ruins the champions ability to be viable in any form of competitive setting.
SouL1ess (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RdMhsLdW,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T06:22:02.883+0000) >Yuumi needs to do less damage in favor of more utility. poking should either be safe and worth little more than procing ludens, or it should be risky and rewarding. Her existence as a buff type support is unique and her defning trait, You need to learn that Yuumi is what she is, and not another soraka or sona. Your fantasy for the champion is not good for the game. And Riot agrees with you, not the people that are trying to get some resemblance of balance in League. She's unique and not good for the game.
> [{quoted}](name=SouL1ess,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RdMhsLdW,comment-id=000200000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-06T19:54:41.865+0000) > > Your fantasy for the champion is not good for the game. > > And Riot agrees with you, not the people that are trying to get some resemblance of balance in League. > > She's unique and not good for the game. Considering the mana costs in the PBE changes, id argue that she pays for it with what will be the highest single cost ability in the game. 160 mana on a 5 second cooldown is an astronomical cost. Also... Champions like Sona, Nami, and Soraka can effectively area heal by choosing their targets instantly. Yuumi doesnt have the luxury of choosing her targets instantly; Her W both has travel time and dissuades her from hopping from ally unless her carry doesnt need her. Theres nothing wrong with an enchanter who can only work on ONE person at a time, and its probably the most balanced form of enchanter to begin with.
: I said it once and god damnit i'll say it again. bot accounts do not fucking exist. these bot accounts are real human beings like you and me. it they buy boots and running it down mid they are inting and trolling. not botting. ghost and heal summoner spells? they're new players because that is the only options for new players. under level 30 they could be smurfs after main accounts got nailed. bot account do not exist. period.
> [{quoted}](name=Inkling Commando,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R0tg8EmT,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-06T07:18:53.484+0000) > > I said it once and god damnit i'll say it again. bot accounts do not fucking exist. these bot accounts are real human beings like you and me. it they buy boots and running it down mid they are inting and trolling. not botting. ghost and heal summoner spells? they're new players because that is the only options for new players. under level 30 they could be smurfs after main accounts got nailed. bot account do not exist. period. You must RMT, do you know cutedog by chance?
: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RdMhsLdW,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T06:22:02.883+0000) > > Do you really need to rant and rave just because you dont understand the actual problems behind Yuumi, or how to solve them without turning her into something she was never intended to be? > No, a duration on her W will not solve anything. > No, her tethered ally being CC'd knocking her off with not solve anything. > No, being able to CC yuumi while tethered would not solve anything. > > The problem with Yuumi is a public perception one. She is a weak, niche champion with a niche playstyle that enables carry champions to carry harder. She is not meant to be a solo champion, she is not meant to have solo capabilities, she is not meant to have traditional counterplay. She is a buff. She is a cat. _*She is a cat buff.*_ > > As i stated, league of legends is a game where "healthy interaction" is considered a zed or Ahri Q, a passthrough skillshot that is not punishable by the opposing party. Unless the opposing party also happens to have a passthrough skillshot of greater length. > Saying that Yuumi "HAS NO INTERACTION" is a flat out lie. Yuumi has plenty of interaction - her unique gameplay style is simply _DIFFERENT_ than other enchanters and affords her a different build path than her peers. She is, again, UNIQUE, and her interaction in the game is through her impact on the person shes currently tied to. Do not think of Yuumi as a single unit, she is not intended to be one and in fact cannot function AS a single unit. > This is no different than ardent days where heal supports would rush ardent censor and then sit behind their marksman spamming heals while being untouchable except when they went up to proc spell spellthiefs, collect coins, or proc runes. > > Yuumi is a champion designed explicitly to stay behind her marksman and benefit from it, providing numerous buffs at the cost of _being very squishy and easily punished when she misplays or her ally misplays_. THAT is the second major form of counterplay to the champion; COORDINATION to deal with HER CARRY which lets you DEAL WITH HER. > Greivous wounds is the first major form of counterplay. It helps tremendously, as does the simple act of counterpicking via a lockdown support, a burst damage support, a burst damage marksman, or a sticky marksman. If you lose to a Yuumi lane, you lost essentialy 1v2 because Yuumi provides mostly sustain and a little poke early on. > > By the mid game, what does it even matter if Yuumi rides the fed top fiora into battle like an angry yordle? It is, again, no different than any other heal support staying behind their carry. Only difference is that if you kill Yuumis carry you also have a 90% chance to kill Yuumi - the PBE changes nearly ensure this with the channel time being added and the cooldown on CC. > > Yuumi IS a buff. Nothing in her kit says otherwise and her entire kit REVOLVES around being tethered to her ally, the PBE changes even reaffirm that Yuumi is a buff. What YOU want is another lulu, sona, or soraka. Another cookie from the cutter. Yuumi is NOT a cookie from the cutter. Shes a custom made cookie with buttercream icing instead of royale. > > She doesnt. Few champions actually do unless its to reward them for what they should be doing anyway. Senna is a perfect example of this - her passive rewards her for interacting... _By harassing enemies, which she already does as an aggressive AD champion_. You can add as many incentives as there are CT haters and it still wont amount to anything if her passive playstyle is still safer. > > Its why my suggestion to solve her problem isnt the solution YOU want. *But let me humor you, what if after using a damaging ability, Yuumi moved in front of her carry and took a % of the damage they take? Would that solve your problem?* > I doubt it would. > > Whats the reason for ANY heal support to risk themselves in that situation? Newsflash; there isnt. Period. A good enchanter will always be behind the carry or the team providing their support as needed. You will almost NEVER collapse directly onto the support unless you are quite ahead or able to escape instantly... in which case _wheres the counterplay to being blown up before anyone can react?_ > > You seem to not realize the inherent power of coordination and attention. I keep pushing the idea of Yuumis Q becoming less of a nuke in the late game because part of the issue at hand is that it adds to the negative perception of an unsuccessful champion who finds niche success in coordinated play. > Yuumi is not a strong champion. Shes niche, and relies entirely on her carry to actually be relevant in order to succeed. As a Yuumi player, the worst feeling i have is when i have no carry, my top laner is a tank, my jungler is a tank, and my mid is behind. Because Yuumi is an _enabler_ she allows winners to _win harder_ rather than being a solo carry such as sona or soraka, champions who can easily turn entire team fights through the power of their AoE utility or easy to land damage. > > You brought up Garen and Olaf. Garen cleanses slows, olaf ill give. > > Darius is a decent example of a champion uninhibited by CC? Hes a juggernaut. He catches you and you get the big hurt; He has his bleed sure, that hardly changes anything when Yuumi allows him to get on and stay on a squishy. > > In such cases you play passively or choose champions who are naturally safe such as ezreal, vayne, lucian, or caitlyn. You seem to be forgetting the fact these are MELEE champions youre talking about, champions who are largely immobile and easy to just not engage with unless they flash on you... Even so, the only champion that can flat ignore hard CC is olaf, an already powerful champion, who is simply _ENABLED_ by Yuumi when he gets ahead. > Imagine if lulu were still popular; Lulu+melee comps were a thing a few seasons ago if you didnt know. Lulu at the time had an above 50% win rate, too. > > No. You DO choose olaf as your carry for his aggressive nature, Yuumi enables him to do what he does even better. Honestly this particular example sounds less like something that its generally a thing and much more like youre salty you got roflstomped by a fed olaf. > Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean its bad. > > Why is Yuumi unhealthy? Because you dont like her? Because you refuse the counterplay in front of your eyes? Because the champions in the game shouldnt direct how you itemize? > Akali had the same problem. People refused the obvious counterplay insisting that they should be able to nuke her at all times. Now we have Senna who has an even stronger Akali shroud and *_no one bats a single eye_*. > Yuumi needs to do less damage in favor of more utility. poking should either be safe and worth little more than procing ludens, or it should be risky and rewarding. Her existence as a buff type support is unique and her defning trait, *_You need to learn that Yuumi is what she is, and not another soraka or sona_*. Ok, say lets make a champion that can oneshot any champion from base every 5 minutes that cannot go out from base. The downside is so massive and outweighs the merits of onshotting a champion every 5 minutes globally so he should be allowed. How do you think about this? No I did not make this question up. This is what a pro said when Yuumi was released.
> [{quoted}](name=Zeppelins circus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RdMhsLdW,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T07:13:11.739+0000) > > Ok, say lets make a champion that can oneshot any champion from base every 5 minutes that cannot go out from base. The downside is so massive and outweighs the merits of onshotting a champion every 5 minutes globally so he should be allowed. How do you think about this? > > No I did not make this question up. This is what a pro said when Yuumi was released. You pick and choose one thing i said, and thats what you decide to go with? Not me humoring you and giving you the "i can nuke you" window you wanted? >what if after using a damaging ability, Yuumi moved in front of her carry and took a % of the damage they take? Im right in that this isnt the kind of solution you want, arent i? You want to be able to hit yuumi while tethered, knock her off, then kill her without actually dealing with her kit or interacting with her as a champion. You want a free kill and to make Yuumi into another cookie cutter unfocused generalist utility support.
: This is getting to be too much for me, I’ve had back to back games of these bots feeding over and over, diving towers and messing up the entire game. They make the game terrible and almost impossible to carry, like if your gonna put bots in pvp, don’t make them more stupid than the intro bots. I’m lvl 68 and they’re in my matches quite often. They also prevent surrendering by not voting which makes you suffer through the torment or dodge but either ways you’re Penalized with either being locked out of queue or mentally dealing with a fed ass enemy champ. I’m sick of this...
> [{quoted}](name=WesternSaturn46,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R0tg8EmT,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-06T07:13:48.279+0000) > > This is getting to be too much for me, I’ve had back to back games of these bots feeding over and over, diving towers and messing up the entire game. They make the game terrible and almost impossible to carry, like if your gonna put bots in pvp, don’t make them more stupid than the intro bots. I’m lvl 68 and they’re in my matches quite often. They also prevent surrendering by not voting which makes you suffer through the torment or dodge but either ways you’re Penalized with either being locked out of queue or mentally dealing with a fed ass enemy champ. > > I’m sick of this... 1) dont necro. 2) Bots in PvP is incredibly brazen, are you reporting them?
: A (seemingly) unpopular opinion regarding the Yuumi Changes on the PBE
Because the new mana costs are astronomical and her W being interuptable as well as CC putting it on a 5 second cooldown makes her feel quite clunky. You feel forced to stick to one champion at any given time and punished for ever leaving. That being said, i like the changes too. I feel her Q needs to be scrapped entirely though... Personally, id make her Q deal her base AD as magic damage, then add an additional effect based on whether shes tethered or not. While tethered; she can control it like now, and hitting an enemy champion gives her tethered ally a 25/35/45//55/65+0.25AP shield up to 325+1.0AP while shes tethered to that ally. While untethered; it becomes a targeted spell that deals her base AD as magic damage plus an additional 40/60/80/100/120+0.5AP magic damage.
NemeBro (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROAq8hds,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-12-06T05:28:40.955+0000) > > Okay. How does one interact with a sona who stands behind their marksman? Jump on her and kill her. > Or a nami who stands behind their marksman? Jump on her and kill her. > Or a soraka who stands behind their marksman? Jump on her and kill her. > The only difference between them and Yuumi is that Yuumi is designed around being a buff. She is, realistically, forced to play passively because she is inherently unsafe unless she burns her ult, unlike the above mentioned three who can defend themselves with CC or steroids. > The nerfs to Yuumis MS buff will go a little ways to helping, the nerfs to her W will go a LONG way to punishing her for making bad decisions. The difference between them and Yuumi is that it is possible to target them, to get them low so they have to cede lane priority, die, or back. Yuumi doesn't have to do any of that shit because she is invincible while attached to her carry. You're straight up lying if you think that Yuumi being impossible to target or interact with and another enchanter just trying to stay away from you is the same thing. Your reasoning is terrible.
> [{quoted}](name=NemeBro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROAq8hds,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2019-12-06T06:30:01.877+0000) > > Jump on her and kill her. > Jump on her and kill her. > Jump on her and kill her. > The difference between them and Yuumi is that it is possible to target them, to get them low so they have to cede lane priority, die, or back. > Yuumi doesn't have to do any of that shit because she is invincible while attached to her carry. So... Why dont you jump on her carry? Coordinate to kill the carry and Yuumi is likely to fall. Even better, shut down the bot lane because a Yuumi lane is a _1v2_ lane where you can focus on pressure and a small lead quickly snowballs, allowing the jungler to go elsewhere and make sure top and mid arent losing. Yuumi is an enabler champion. She enables winners to win harder and doesnt function well when her allies are behind. The changes on PBE help greatly in cementing that fact. > You're straight up lying if you think that Yuumi being impossible to target or interact with and another enchanter just trying to stay away from you is the same thing. Your reasoning is terrible. Just because you dont like a champion doesnt meant theyre bad and unhealthy. I compare Yuumi to her peers because Yuumi is even more vulnerable than them. Lets put a hypothetical into play, yeah? Jungler is Rengar. Bot is lucian. Support is Soraka. Normal enchanter lane post six: Lucian and soraka engage on your marksman. Rengar jumps you. With you dead, the rengar can focus on the marksman and its an easy double. Or you escape the rengar and your marksman still dies. Successful gank. Yuumi post six: Lucian and soraka engage on your marksman. Rengar jumps your marksman. You ult to stop the rengar from chasing. By the time your ult has finished your marksman has lost the 1v3 and rengar has killed you. Easy double. Or you successfully defend against the rengar and your marksman still dies because they arent ahead enough to benefit from your W much yet. ___________________________________________________ The PBE changes reduce her damage in favor of more utility, which is something that she needs in order to shift her perception as an artillery cat to that of a buff cat. Please remember, just because you feel you have a right given by god himself to nuke everything whenever you want... doesnt mean its true, and it doesnt mean that anything you CANT nuke whenever you want is inherently evil.
: She can sit on top of her ADC for an indefinite amount of time and spam abilities, and her entire kit revolves around her being attached to someone. The core of her design makes her harder to balance and **it also creates scenarios that balancing with simple number changes can't fix.** I've read posts that Yuumi promotes duo boosting cause a high rank adc will have an easier time carrying a Yuumi player. Its an uncommon scenario but Yuumi allows it to happen. She doesn't need to build boots because she rarely detaches from allies except when they're dead. Though she can still build them I rarely see Yuumi players do it. Its a reasonable trade-off but it also means an extra 900-1100G to use for other items. Because of how she's designed she can skip using flash as well. {{summoner:14}} {{summoner:3}} Imagine how strong any other support would be if they could stop using flash and start using Ignite and Exhaust instead? Her ADC can reliably use {{summoner:21}} or {{summoner:12}} instead of {{summoner:7}} and Yuumi can use {{summoner:14}} {{summoner:3}} or {{summoner:14}} {{summoner:7}} or {{summoner:3}} {{summoner:7}}. It's also worth noting that Yuumi was able to teleport with allies she's attached to and Riot's removing that interaction because its too strong. Now lets go off topic a little and remind you how hated and still hated {{item:3504}} meta was. People hated it so much that it that it got all enchanters nerfed and people are still mad about it and want supports to nerfed into the ground, _**but then they created this thing, the most uninteractive enchanter that may ever exist**_ {{champion:350}}, so its not surprising that people hate laning against Yuumi.
> [{quoted}](name=Silent Pace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROAq8hds,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-12-06T05:54:30.036+0000) > > Snip It sounds like you flat just dont like Yuumi, therefore she is bad and unhealthy.
: What bad decisions are there when you're untargetable and just spam Q off CD? How do you interact with something that by design you cannot interact with? Sona, Nami, and Soraka all have a target on their backs. Yuumi doesn't. She's immune to that target.
> [{quoted}](name=WoonStruck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROAq8hds,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T05:47:26.346+0000) > > What bad decisions are there when you're untargetable and just spam Q off CD? > > How do you interact with something that by design you cannot interact with? > > Sona, Nami, and Soraka all have a target on their backs. Yuumi doesn't. She's immune to that target. Yuumi can not detatch as they watch their carry get collapsed on, she can attatch to a suicide run, she can choose to try and secure a kill... Her Q making her public perception be that of an artillery cat IS the problem, not her tether mechanics. Its the entire reason riot is pushing her more towards a heal centric build. Its also why i push for her Q to become a targeted spell that deals base AD and procs additional damage while not tethered and to deal base AD while procing a low value, stackable shield while tethered. You want to see Yuumi as an individual champion. She is not intended to be a single unit, shes intended to be a buff and her entire existence shows that. Unlike Soraka, sona, lulu, janna, and nami Yuumi NEEDS that ally to be tethered to her to be effective, and she only benefits ONE ally at a time instead of several. Nor can she swap instantly to respond to threats as needed; she has travel time when she goes from ally to ally. Also... Wheres the interaction with a fizz W? A zed Q? An Ahri Q? There isnt counterplay except dodge the skillshot in the last two -something you can do to a Yuumi Q as well.
Barcid (NA)
: There's an episode of "Strange Addictions" where a woman became addicted to eating feces contaminated food, and continued to act as if it may even be _healthy_ for her. This reminds me of that. Because what you're trying to do is justify how a champion that literally has no interaction whatsoever - and I mean functionally zilch, nada, not a thing, can't kill her can't detach her from her champion - is perfectly fine while listing off traits that are completely not. > Yuumi is too squishy to take much heat, she doesn't do enough damage to warrant taking risks This is something I said _verbatim_ and is the leading argument. Yes. She doesn't do either of those things. That's a _problem_. What you seem to be asking for is a buff bot, which in a way translates to the "enchanter class" in general, but the thing is that you can go and _kill_ champions like Lulu. You can even force Lulu to waste her buffs on herself so her teammate remains vulnerable - you can't do that with Yuumi unless she detaches herself, which circles us all the way back around to the question of **why would Yuumi ever detach from her host?** Which you haven't given much of a reason why she would - okay, her Q costs are up in lane and she needs to recover mana? While that's fine, there are numerous items to remedy that and no small amount of runes for that as well, but even ignoring those, we're basically covering one single aspect of her time in a game and that's laning - what about _outside_ of laning? How about skirmishes? Teamfights? What's her reason to hop off in _those_? You keep going on the Q suggestion, but you fail to realize that giving her bonus utility on her Q without asking her to hop off exacerbates the problem that we still aren't able to touch Yuumi. She stays pinned to her host until _they_ die, meaning you are _forced_ to try and kill a semi-permanently buffed champion. The other thing is that I didn't bring up a melee issue - I brought up an issue of if Yuumi is placed on a champion who's uninhibited by CC. Darius ironically actually _is_ a decent example of this as his bleed continues to do damage even if he's CC'd and his Q just has to be activated to make sure it goes through. Garen's E is uninterruptible and Olaf has an ult literally allowing him to ignore CC - this is the point I'm making, that one of the things allowing you to deal with Yuumi buffing a champion (IE keep them locked down to kingdom come so you can kill them through the buffs) can be not just partially but **_completely_** mitigated by certain champions. They didn't choose Olaf because he's hyper aggressive - it's because he can literally charge his fat ass through 9 metric tons of CC and frontline with a speed steroid and some guaranteed snares in order to pulverize enemy champions. On top of this, Olaf has an AS steroid built into his kit, allowing him to maximize the effects of Yuumi's passive AD increase on him, and this in turn helps his built in lifesteal. **And you can't counter that like you can against a Janna because you can't fucking separate Yuumi from her host.** Look, at this point I've already realized you and I just will not see eye to eye on this. My point still stands here - Yuumi does not offer healthy or fair gameplay, and she needs changes that bring her _**off**_ of her teammates instead of piling on to the reasons that she should stay **_on_** them, and you can take or leave this input. Though you're probably going to leave it, so this whole explanation is more for the benefit of others rather than for you yourself. So if you have anything else to add, go for it, but this is where I'm putting a period on my point as I've already reiterated it too many times so far.
Do you really need to rant and rave just because you dont understand the actual problems behind Yuumi, or how to solve them without turning her into something she was never intended to be? No, a duration on her W will not solve anything. No, her tethered ally being CC'd knocking her off with not solve anything. No, being able to CC yuumi while tethered would not solve anything. The problem with Yuumi is a public perception one. She is a weak, niche champion with a niche playstyle that enables carry champions to carry harder. She is not meant to be a solo champion, she is not meant to have solo capabilities, she is not meant to have traditional counterplay. She is a buff. She is a cat. _*She is a cat buff.*_ > [{quoted}](name=Barcid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RdMhsLdW,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T05:34:15.105+0000) > > There's an episode of "Strange Addictions" where a woman became addicted to eating feces contaminated food, and continued to act as if it may even be _healthy_ for her. > > This reminds me of that. Because what you're trying to do is justify how a champion that literally has no interaction whatsoever - and I mean functionally zilch, nada, not a thing, can't kill her can't detach her from her champion - is perfectly fine while listing off traits that are completely not. As i stated, league of legends is a game where "healthy interaction" is considered a zed or Ahri Q, a passthrough skillshot that is not punishable by the opposing party. Unless the opposing party also happens to have a passthrough skillshot of greater length. Saying that Yuumi "HAS NO INTERACTION" is a flat out lie. Yuumi has plenty of interaction - her unique gameplay style is simply _DIFFERENT_ than other enchanters and affords her a different build path than her peers. She is, again, UNIQUE, and her interaction in the game is through her impact on the person shes currently tied to. Do not think of Yuumi as a single unit, she is not intended to be one and in fact cannot function AS a single unit. This is no different than ardent days where heal supports would rush ardent censor and then sit behind their marksman spamming heals while being untouchable except when they went up to proc spell spellthiefs, collect coins, or proc runes. Yuumi is a champion designed explicitly to stay behind her marksman and benefit from it, providing numerous buffs at the cost of _being very squishy and easily punished when she misplays or her ally misplays_. THAT is the second major form of counterplay to the champion; COORDINATION to deal with HER CARRY which lets you DEAL WITH HER. Greivous wounds is the first major form of counterplay. It helps tremendously, as does the simple act of counterpicking via a lockdown support, a burst damage support, a burst damage marksman, or a sticky marksman. If you lose to a Yuumi lane, you lost essentialy 1v2 because Yuumi provides mostly sustain and a little poke early on. By the mid game, what does it even matter if Yuumi rides the fed top fiora into battle like an angry yordle? It is, again, no different than any other heal support staying behind their carry. Only difference is that if you kill Yuumis carry you also have a 90% chance to kill Yuumi - the PBE changes nearly ensure this with the channel time being added and the cooldown on CC. > This is something I said _verbatim_ and is the leading argument. Yes. She doesn't do either of those things. That's a _problem_. What you seem to be asking for is a buff bot, which in a way translates to the "enchanter class" in general, but the thing is that you can go and _kill_ champions like Lulu. You can even force Lulu to waste her buffs on herself so her teammate remains vulnerable - Yuumi IS a buff. Nothing in her kit says otherwise and her entire kit REVOLVES around being tethered to her ally, the PBE changes even reaffirm that Yuumi is a buff. What YOU want is another lulu, sona, or soraka. Another cookie from the cutter. Yuumi is NOT a cookie from the cutter. Shes a custom made cookie with buttercream icing instead of royale. >you can't do that with Yuumi unless she detaches herself, which circles us all the way back around to the question of **why would Yuumi ever detach from her host?** Which you haven't given much of a reason why she would She doesnt. Few champions actually do unless its to reward them for what they should be doing anyway. Senna is a perfect example of this - her passive rewards her for interacting... _By harassing enemies, which she already does as an aggressive AD champion_. You can add as many incentives as there are CT haters and it still wont amount to anything if her passive playstyle is still safer. Its why my suggestion to solve her problem isnt the solution YOU want. *But let me humor you, what if after using a damaging ability, Yuumi moved in front of her carry and took a % of the damage they take? Would that solve your problem?* I doubt it would. > - okay, her Q costs are up in lane and she needs to recover mana? While that's fine, there are numerous items to remedy that and no small amount of runes for that as well, but even ignoring those, we're basically covering one single aspect of her time in a game and that's laning - what about _outside_ of laning? How about skirmishes? Teamfights? What's her reason to hop off in _those_? Whats the reason for ANY heal support to risk themselves in that situation? Newsflash; there isnt. Period. A good enchanter will always be behind the carry or the team providing their support as needed. You will almost NEVER collapse directly onto the support unless you are quite ahead or able to escape instantly... in which case _wheres the counterplay to being blown up before anyone can react?_ >You keep going on the Q suggestion, but you fail to realize that giving her bonus utility on her Q without asking her to hop off exacerbates the problem that we still aren't able to touch Yuumi. She stays pinned to her host until _they_ die, meaning you are _forced_ to try and kill a semi-permanently buffed champion. You seem to not realize the inherent power of coordination and attention. I keep pushing the idea of Yuumis Q becoming less of a nuke in the late game because part of the issue at hand is that it adds to the negative perception of an unsuccessful champion who finds niche success in coordinated play. Yuumi is not a strong champion. Shes niche, and relies entirely on her carry to actually be relevant in order to succeed. As a Yuumi player, the worst feeling i have is when i have no carry, my top laner is a tank, my jungler is a tank, and my mid is behind. Because Yuumi is an _enabler_ she allows winners to _win harder_ rather than being a solo carry such as sona or soraka, champions who can easily turn entire team fights through the power of their AoE utility or easy to land damage. > The other thing is that I didn't bring up a melee issue - I brought up an issue of if Yuumi is placed on a champion who's uninhibited by CC. You brought up Garen and Olaf. Garen cleanses slows, olaf ill give. >Darius ironically actually _is_ a decent example of this as his bleed continues to do damage even if he's CC'd and his Q just has to be activated to make sure it goes through. Darius is a decent example of a champion uninhibited by CC? Hes a juggernaut. He catches you and you get the big hurt; He has his bleed sure, that hardly changes anything when Yuumi allows him to get on and stay on a squishy. >Garen's E is uninterruptible and Olaf has an ult literally allowing him to ignore CC - this is the point I'm making, that one of the things allowing you to deal with Yuumi buffing a champion (IE keep them locked down to kingdom come so you can kill them through the buffs) can be not just partially but **_completely_** mitigated by certain champions. In such cases you play passively or choose champions who are naturally safe such as ezreal, vayne, lucian, or caitlyn. You seem to be forgetting the fact these are MELEE champions youre talking about, champions who are largely immobile and easy to just not engage with unless they flash on you... Even so, the only champion that can flat ignore hard CC is olaf, an already powerful champion, who is simply _ENABLED_ by Yuumi when he gets ahead. Imagine if lulu were still popular; Lulu+melee comps were a thing a few seasons ago if you didnt know. Lulu at the time had an above 50% win rate, too. >They didn't choose Olaf because he's hyper aggressive - it's because he can literally charge his fat ass through 9 metric tons of CC and frontline with a speed steroid and some guaranteed snares in order to pulverize enemy champions. On top of this, Olaf has an AS steroid built into his kit, allowing him to maximize the effects of Yuumi's passive AD increase on him, and this in turn helps his built in lifesteal. **And you can't counter that like you can against a Janna because you can't fucking separate Yuumi from her host.** No. You DO choose olaf as your carry for his aggressive nature, Yuumi enables him to do what he does even better. Honestly this particular example sounds less like something that its generally a thing and much more like youre salty you got roflstomped by a fed olaf. Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean its bad. > Snip because character limit Why is Yuumi unhealthy? Because you dont like her? Because you refuse the counterplay in front of your eyes? Because the champions in the game shouldnt direct how you itemize? Akali had the same problem. People refused the obvious counterplay insisting that they should be able to nuke her at all times. Now we have Senna who has an even stronger Akali shroud and *_no one bats a single eye_*. Yuumi needs to do less damage in favor of more utility. poking should either be safe and worth little more than procing ludens, or it should be risky and rewarding. Her existence as a buff type support is unique and her defning trait, *_You need to learn that Yuumi is what she is, and not another soraka or sona_*.
: Yuumi's core issue is lack of interaction. The main way for the enemy to interact with her is buying GW. That kinda says something.
> [{quoted}](name=WoonStruck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROAq8hds,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-12-06T05:13:35.190+0000) > > Yuumi's core issue is lack of interaction. > > The main way for the enemy to interact with her is buying GW. That kinda says something. Okay. How does one interact with a sona who stands behind their marksman? Or a nami who stands behind their marksman? Or a soraka who stands behind their marksman? The only difference between them and Yuumi is that Yuumi is designed around being a buff. She is, realistically, forced to play passively because she is inherently unsafe unless she burns her ult, unlike the above mentioned three who can defend themselves with CC or steroids. The nerfs to Yuumis MS buff will go a little ways to helping, the nerfs to her W will go a LONG way to punishing her for making bad decisions.
Revech (NA)
: That sounds really exciting and interesting. Especially the idea of a separate kit somehow interactive with her book. A separate kit is not a new idea to league (i.e. rek sai), and any argument that a seperate kit concept is to complicated, can just point out Aphelios kit seems much more complicated. Hopefully this post gets lots of upvotes.
> [{quoted}](name=Revech,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RdMhsLdW,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-12-06T05:05:02.348+0000) > > That sounds really exciting and interesting. Especially the idea of a separate kit somehow interactive with her book. A separate kid is not a new idea to league, and any argument that it's to complicated, can just point out Aphelios kit seems much more complicated. Hopefully this post gets lots of upvotes. Aphelios kit is actually pretty simple, its just "large".
: He stated no values and instead implied that it would gain the values or similar values to what you had listed. ~~Given you did not list any base stats, gold or build path for the item that means that the build path suggestion is perfectly in line with what you suggested at the time.~~ The only differentials here are his suggestion for health rather than a shield and it being an item rather than a rune. For reference, his comment contains only this information: > [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bfLnNRjH,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-06T00:03:18.759+0000) > > Might also work as a passive or active on a hybrid defense item. > > {{item:3105}}+{{item:1031}}+{{item:1057}} It does not contain any values other than the stats given by those items and the gold costs associated. --- I also don't know why I care. Just bugged me I think.
> [{quoted}](name=Z3Sleepier,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bfLnNRjH,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T05:01:50.094+0000) > > He stated no values and instead implied that it would gain the values or similar values to what you had listed. > > Given you did not list any base stats, gold or build path for the item that means that the build path suggestion is perfectly in line with what you suggested at the time. That'd be because i suggested a keystone ^^' **This sounds like a pretty good keystone, honestly. Replace aftershock with it? Lets call it Runic Bulwark.**
: Yknow what he suggested and what you suggested are essentially the same thing right? Only one is health and the other is a shield. I was just pointing that out is all.
> [{quoted}](name=Z3Sleepier,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bfLnNRjH,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T04:44:57.601+0000) > > Yknow what he suggested and what you suggested are essentially the same thing right? Only one is health and the other is a shield. > > I was just pointing that out is all. ... Mine gives flat values for flat values, promoting hybridiztion and healthy tanks rather than the OPs which promotes specialization and isnt heathy. For every 1armor and MR after 120, gain 5 shield. The AND is not an average - its a condition.
Barcid (NA)
: I don't know where your second part of your argument came from that she's fun to play - I never implied she isn't fun for people to play. I'm sure she's enjoyable to some. But... so is Yasuo. So is Yasuo healthy gameplay? Is his windwall fair to other players? Is his laning fun and interactive with how he shrugs off most trades by dashing to his opponent, chunking some health off of them before his shield burns out, and then dashing back away to walk back and forth to get his shield back up? I'm sure Yasuo is super fun to those who play him. That's why he's popular - **facing** Yasuo in lane, however, is akin to having an aneurysm. It is frustrating, it is toxic, it is flat out _unfair_ to have a champion that scales that well able to stand toe-to-toe so well in a lane. And that's basically Yuumi - she's fun to her players, a frustrating mess to play against to anyone on the opposing side. Sure, you named some ways to counter her with items - but every single champion has itemization counterplay. Where the difference lies between Yuumi and others is that Yuumi otherwise doesn't have counterplay in terms of _gameplay._ Yuumi just _doesn't_. You _don't_ interact with her any more than she wants you to. You interact with her host, and try as you may to argue that that's thereby interacting with Yuumi, the fact is Yuumi is only in as much danger as her host is putting her in and beyond that it's if she wishes to put _herself_ in danger, which she can completely freely choose whether or not to do that. And while I like your suggestion to a point, that really only helps playing against Yuumi in lane - by the mid to late-game, Yuumi will hardly be trying to proc her passive without her frontline glued to your face, she will have next to no reason to hop off for some meager poke - she'll still play the same way, glued to her teammate, only this time we'd be facing even _**less**_ counterplay because she wouldn't have to jump off to give her ally a shield. The issue, basically, is that Yuumi still has, quite frankly, _zero_ reason to leave her host, and so never has a reason to interact with you as a player. You have to outplay Yuumi's host, and for Yuumi to function as a champion, the buffs the host gets from Yuumi has to make up for Yuumi's practical lack of champion-hood. In other words: Yuumi's on a champion, that champion is in essence two champions. While this has drawbacks like allowing strong CC to be able to lock down what is basically two champions at once (hence why Nautilus crushes this lane), this weakness stops being as relevant against things such as Garen or - god help you - Olaf. I will end this by saying this: even Janna can be peeled away from her allies to keep her from being able to protect or empower them. How do you peel Yuumi away from her host, though? And keep in mind that repeating your argument from earlier equivocates to "When she decides she wants to be off of them", which still means there is zero power in the hands of her opponent and all of it is on Yuumi in terms of counterplay.
> [{quoted}](name=Barcid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RdMhsLdW,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-12-06T04:37:40.427+0000) > > snip To be fair, few champions have much reason to interact and league of legends is a game where people think zed and Ahri hitting you with high damage pass through skill shots you cant punish them for is healthy interaction because "they at least hit you". No matter how much incentive you put on a champion to 'interact', it means nothing if the playerbase chooses not to because of other reasons. Its why you shouldnt _FORCE_ champions to interact unless its a reward for what you should be doing anyway, like senna is. She might be absurdly broken and in desperate need of nerfs, but she IS well designed at a base level. Yuumi is to squishy to take much heat, she doesnt do enough damage to warrant taking risks, and when the PBE buffs come to pass shes REALLY going to be a great little cat buff who just needs her Q removed in favor of something fundamentally less powerful for damage unless she takes a risk. Also, touching on your melee complaint, Yuumi is an enabler. The problem with melee vs ranged is that melee cant really close the gap before ranged destroys them, unless the melee is mobile (at which point they dont need a support to begin with). Yuumi on a melee carry like Garen or Olaf isnt broken or even a generally strong thing... Its a niche counterpick that cropped up because pro players were playing safer, longer range marksmen who take longer to scale (or lucian) and a highly aggressive, early game oriented champion is the perfect thing to counter that. Having been on the receiving end of a Yuumi Darius lane as a nami more than once during games with friends, i can tell you that to lose early to such a comp means the botlane is lost and our marksman top or jungle had to carry. Theres also the fact that no one expects a melee to jump on you like a melee yuumi comp can. You get a shock when it happens, and your knee jerk is "WTF IS THAT RITO".
Barcid (NA)
: Well that's kind of the point, though - you at no point outplay Yuumi _herself_. Rather, you outplay her host. If Yuumi had more reason to hop off her host for longer, then you would far more arguably be able to outplay Yuumi then - but as of current, her rewards for hopping off a host are minimal, and with this upcoming update they actually shrink even more as she is not only less able to return once she hops off, but also everything she has in her kit is significantly stronger on another champion than by herself, the only exception being the shield she can grab if she hops off - which, if we're being perfectly honest, could get popped the moment she gets it by any kind of AoE and could sooner just wind up being a flat risk with no real reward. The point at the end, then, is that Yuumi needs some kind of changes that encourage her to jump off and not just for a split second to get a shield - giving her some kit changes to encourage her to stay on the field for a bit while fostering a more bruiser-esque approach instead of just sitting there pinned to an ally would make her have legitimate interactivity between her and her laning opponents instead of basically just being between her ADC and her opponents. Let's also remember that Yuumi has her _book_ to offer inspiration on potential abilities and changes. As of current, the book pretty only comes into play thematically during her ult, but could very easily offer abilities allowing for Yuumi's detached gameplay. Hell, Nidalee has different abilities while in cat form to her human form, and so does Rek'Sai when she's burrowed - if Yuumi picked up a separate skillset while attached to a host from her being detached, you could allow her to be a functioning unit in both realms. But before even looking at that, the main issue cropping up is that Yuumi's W does nothing when she detaches but offers critical passive buffs to her teammate while she's attached - she needs something in her gameplay that legitimately asks her to step off and interact, or any time she's in a lane there will continue to be a lack of direct interaction between Yuumi and the enemy.
> [{quoted}](name=Barcid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RdMhsLdW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-06T04:15:39.818+0000) > > > Let's also remember that Yuumi has her _book_ to offer inspiration on potential abilities and changes. As of current, the book pretty only comes into play thematically during her ult, but could very easily offer abilities allowing for Yuumi's detached gameplay. Hell, Nidalee has different abilities while in cat form to her human form, and so does Rek'Sai when she's burrowed - if Yuumi picked up a separate skillset while attached to a host from her being detached, you could allow her to be a functioning unit in both realms. But before even looking at that, the main issue cropping up is that Yuumi's W does nothing when she detaches but offers critical passive buffs to her teammate while she's attached - she needs something in her gameplay that legitimately asks her to step off and interact, or any time she's in a lane there will continue to be a lack of direct interaction between Yuumi and the enemy. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1mF3TEYw-would-this-support-kit-be-unique-up-op-or-just-stupid?show=new SHameless plug of a friends concept. Double kit champions can be hard to balance, especially if their intended role is enchanter support. You notice nidalee was never balanced as a support - always as a caster or a jungler. I think the better option is to simply make Yuumi a guranteed kill if she gets caught or misplays; the current changes on PBE reflect that and push her more into a buff cat than she is now. The real problem however is public perception of her, also known as the roadhog issue: _No matter how weak she actually is the public perception is that shes oppressive and very strong._
: bot games have bots in them? GASP. its a bot game man. it doesnt really matter. at least theyre not all in SR
> [{quoted}](name=ScoobsLuvsDoobs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MhaAyvbj,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-06T03:43:39.481+0000) > > bot games have bots in them? GASP. > its a bot game man. it doesnt really matter. at least theyre not all in SR This isnt the right response. Excusing it because its not ranked is like saying murder is okay because its from a group i dont like. __________________________________________________________ Its preseason. Botters are building up their stocks to sell for the season so that high ELO players dont have to struggle to make fresh accounts. How do you think big streamers always have low MMR accounts for their climb series? They dont have the time to level those themselves when they can just RMT one.
: He means an effect that would effectively grant you bonus health for all the armor/mr you build. So basically Stoneplate Active but scaling off resistances rather than health.
> [{quoted}](name=Z3Sleepier,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bfLnNRjH,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-06T02:44:48.040+0000) > > He means an effect that would effectively grant you bonus health for all the armor/mr you build. > > So basically Stoneplate Active but scaling off resistances rather than health. OP specifically suggests resistances after a point giving you a type specific shield that scales with the amount of relevent resistances for that type. The idea itself - tanks being rewarded for building resistances - is not a bad idea. But rewarding specialization isnt smart because it promotes specialization and pigeonholding; Malphite and Rammus for example are _already_ really good against AD comps. Making them EVEN BETTER against AD comps isnt quite healthy for the game though. Which is why i suggested what i suggested; Rewarding hybridization of resistances to promote healthy tanks.
: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROAq8hds,comment-id=0000000000010001,timestamp=2019-12-06T03:16:57.784+0000) > > Being the MAIN gimmick the entire kit is based around means that initial balance sweep takes it into consideration. Yuumi, if her carry is killed, WILL also be killed. > If Yuumi mispositions and gets on the wrong person she WILL be killed. > If Yuumi misplays and gets caught she WILL be killed (even by a true tank like braum or leona). > > Yuumi has very minimal ability to survive damage on her own, even building full AP her E only nets her maybe 400MS. That inability is compounded by the fact she doesnt tend to buy boots; if her carry isnt smart or gets caught, she has a 90% chance to die with them. If you cannot see the problem while writing it by your own hand, you are really one lost cause.
> [{quoted}](name=Zeppelins circus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROAq8hds,comment-id=00000000000100010000,timestamp=2019-12-06T03:20:52.907+0000) > > If you cannot see the problem while writing it by your own hand, you are really one lost cause. One word for you. Roadhog. The problem with Yuumi is partially that her Q is powerful enough that when combined with her unique playstyle she can viably build full AP rather than the normal enchanter items. This leads to people thinking that shes an artillery cat who has no counter play because she hides behind her carry (which is no different than any other enchanter support of skill, honestly). The problem is not with Yuumi, the problem is with the publics perception of her. The solution to this is what riot is already doing; consolidating her from "artillery cat with heals" into "flashy cat buff". Her E becoming severely overloaded, her W buffs, her passive buffs, are all doing good things to help public perception shift away from "SHE DOES TO MUCH DAMAGE AND I CANT KILL HER FIRST RITO". Her Q is the actual problem, and it needs a total rework. Personally, i think turning it into a basic attack spell like ezreals Q is the right call. Untethered it can proc her passive damage, tethered it can proc her passive shield (and be controlled as it is now). I also mean that it does her basic attack damage and procs a portion of her passive - not that its a spell that also triggers on hit effect. Her untethered Q would not proc her passive, she would have to basic attack twice to get both off. This way, Yuumi has to choose to put herself into danger to proc her passive and get mana back, choose to use her Q to proc additional damage, or choose to stay safe and just be cat buff.
Barcid (NA)
: The Yuumi changes flat out miss the mark of what her problem is
>This is gonna be rough for all those who really like playing Yuumi to have to read - but Yuumi's issues boil down to her very kit, not just as a >"backpack" champion, but to how it plays. To put it bluntly: Yuumi has zero counterplay. >"But that's not true! Hard engaging on her in-lane is her weakness! ADC's make terrible frontline champions to try and eat damage with. So all you >have to do is all-in her!" >The problem with this argument is this: You are not at any point engaging on Yuumi. You engage on her host. Yuumi is so removed from the action >you have no means of actually getting to her. >So that's just it, then. Yuumi as a concept is horribly flawed, can't be made to work, and will always have no counterplay. All right, team, that's a >wrap then! Mystery solved, let's go home! Im going to argue your take on Yuumi is as flawed as you think she is, because you fail to recognize the actual counterplay at hand here. Theres many different kinds of counterplay, and in Yuumis case, her counterplay involves _items, burst damage, and simply playing around her passive_. As you said Yuumi is a champion who enables others to carry, rather than being an explicit carry herself. **Cat buff, is, in fact, a buff that is a cat.** Any form of coordination and lockdown will completely destroy a Yuumi lane since its a 1v2 lane because her counterplay, while not direct, is essentially basic sense; Greivous wounds Hard to Semi hard CC Burst damage Offensive mobility Its _VERY_ easy to punish the cat buff for misplays, and with the PBE changes it will be even easier because her mana costs are going sky high. Theres nothing wrong with Yuumi being a buff - in fact, its a playstyle that is ENJOYABLE when you actually learn it because you can focus on other aspects of the game like the state of the map as a whole without compromising the lane. I will concede the current state of Yuumi is to far in the middle. The PBE changes are very clearly an attempt to consolidate her into the cat buff position rather than an artillery cat, which i approve of, but she still needs changes. Her Q, for example, NEEDS to be scrapped entirely and replaced with something else that works better for her cat buff theme. Personally i think her Q should just become an empowered basic attack that procs a part of her passive; While tethered it procs the shield part, while not tethered it procs the damage part and gives her increased range. In this way Yuumi can choose whether or not she wants to poke or not, instead of just lobbing off Qs like nidalee spears. It would also make Yuumi very vulnerable - and therefore punishable - if she tries to land her standard passive then an empowered Q auto, which would be good for perception.
Eedat (NA)
: > Lower than Senna? Oh ***easily*** lower than hers. Lower than any other champ in the game by a wide margin. The amount of skill it takes to play Yuumi at a usable level is practically zero. Her kit removes ***basic*** gameplay mechanics that every other champ in the game has to use like positioning, orb walking, kiting, etc. > Yuumi's tether is her major gameplay gimmick and she has extremely low base stats and unparalleled inability to survive because of it. Her base stats mean nothing because you dont get to interact with her lol. Just because a champ has a gimmick doesnt mean the gimmick isnt a problem. A gimmick is just part of a champs kit. Any part of a champs kit can be problematic. Being 'a gimmck' does not mean it is healthy and does not give it immunity from being problematic
> [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROAq8hds,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-06T01:48:32.991+0000) > > Oh ***easily*** lower than hers. Lower than any other champ in the game by a wide margin. The amount of skill it takes to play Yuumi at a usable level is practically zero. Her kit removes ***basic*** gameplay mechanics that every other champ in the game has to use like positioning, orb walking, kiting, etc. > > Her base stats mean nothing because you dont get to interact with her lol. Just because a champ has a gimmick doesnt mean the gimmick isnt a problem. A gimmick is just part of a champs kit. Any part of a champs kit can be problematic. Being 'a gimmck' does not mean it is healthy and does not give it immunity from being problematic Being the MAIN gimmick the entire kit is based around means that initial balance sweep takes it into consideration. Yuumi, if her carry is killed, WILL also be killed. If Yuumi mispositions and gets on the wrong person she WILL be killed. If Yuumi misplays and gets caught she WILL be killed (even by a true tank like braum or leona). Yuumi has very minimal ability to survive damage on her own, even building full AP her E only nets her maybe 400MS. That inability is compounded by the fact she doesnt tend to buy boots; if her carry isnt smart or gets caught, she has a 90% chance to die with them.
Sillae (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d1OTzFIx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-06T00:30:03.471+0000) > > You mention raid boss, and i just want to say; > A raid boss type champion is one who scales well and scales infinitely. > > {{champion:31}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:235}} {{champion:75}} are "raid boss" type champions. > Within the raid boss type theres also raid mini bosses; champions who scale infinitely but not well. {{champion:14}} {{champion:412}} would be raid mini bosses. > > This being said, raid boss is not a champion type riot supports. Its simply a name for the collective group of infinitely scaling champions. Uh, personally I consider a raid boss anything where you need the majority or all of the team to take down one person. Y'know like in raids where there are bosses in other games. Don't recall a lot raid bosses in other games stacking infinitely.. Some do oneshot you if you take too long though.
> [{quoted}](name=Sillae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d1OTzFIx,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-12-06T01:10:02.656+0000) > > Uh, personally I consider a raid boss anything where you need the majority or all of the team to take down one person. Y'know like in raids where there are bosses in other games. > > Don't recall a lot raid bosses in other games stacking infinitely.. Some do oneshot you if you take too long though. Raid bosses in traditional MMOs are very large, very damaging, and/or very beefy enemies. In league of legends, the raid boss type need to scale first but they do eventually become raid bosses which take an especially coordinated effort to deal with and if left alone will continue to scale forever until senna has 300 souls and can oneshot you from outside your vision range.
Eedat (NA)
: > Because the problem ISNT that shes untargetable and cant be damaged by AoE onces shes tethered You cant just say it isnt a problem because you say so lol. It's a huge issue with her kit. You do not get to interact with her unless she lets you. She also has the hands down lowest skill floor in the game because of it
> [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROAq8hds,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-06T01:09:11.323+0000) > > You cant just say it isnt a problem because you say so lol. It's a huge issue with her kit. You do not get to interact with her unless she lets you. She also has the hands down lowest skill floor in the game because of it Lower than Senna? I doubt it. Yuumi's tether is her major gameplay gimmick and she has extremely low base stats and unparalleled inability to survive because of it. Her clutch safety has also been addressed on PBE, with an interruptable 0.25 cast time, so that should help her feeling of safety.
Comentários de Rioters
: Juggernauts are "powerful, durable, immobile and melee" which is why Aatrox has dashes and Swain is ranged. Riot can't even follow their own design philosophy.
> [{quoted}](name=Weiner the Pooh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d1OTzFIx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-06T00:41:57.915+0000) > > Juggernauts are "powerful, durable, immobile and melee" which is why Aatrox has dashes and Swain is ranged. > > Riot can't even follow their own design philosophy. Aatrox isnt a juggernaut, to my knowledge. He does not have ANY of the traits a juggernaut has. Also swain is a battle mage. Like Ryze and Malzahar, hes not a juggernaut.
: What is a Juggernaut Mechanic/Steroid? Explained.
You mention raid boss, and i just want to say; A raid boss type champion is one who scales well and scales infinitely. {{champion:31}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:235}} {{champion:75}} are "raid boss" type champions. Within the raid boss type theres also raid mini bosses; champions who scale infinitely but not well. {{champion:14}} {{champion:412}} would be raid mini bosses. This being said, raid boss is not a champion type riot supports. Its simply a name for the collective group of infinitely scaling champions.
: Might also work as a passive or active on a hybrid defense item. {{item:3105}}+{{item:1031}}+{{item:1057}}
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bfLnNRjH,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-06T00:03:18.759+0000) > > Might also work as a passive or active on a hybrid defense item. > > {{item:3105}}+{{item:1031}}+{{item:1057}} Tanks need all the HP they can get unfortunately, a new item that doesnt have HP but is defensive would need REALLY good stats. like 100+100 - which goes against riots current design philosophy.
: Exceeding a certain number of Armor/MR as a tank
This sounds like a pretty good keystone, honestly. Replace aftershock with it? Lets call it Runic Bulwark. And lets make it trigger after 120Armor and 120 MR; for every 1 armor+MR after the threshhold you gain a 5 damage shield that slowly refreshes based on your health regeneration when out of combat. So if you get 200 armor and 200 MR, youd have a 400 damage shield. But if you specialized into armor and got say... 120MR and 300 armor, youd have a 0 shield.
: Team builder popularity largely dropped as the mode keep staying online unlike draft and blind pick who stayed pretty relevant and this is due to it's longer queue time. It was not a regional thing, i'm not talking only on personal experience but if u see old teambuilder post u will find the same quote. Also if it wasn't a issue then why do you think that riot create autofill? Longer queue time and champion out of role was really and really common expecially in his last year of life, sure u could expell them but u had to find another player and since the queue time was longer u had to choose if wait 40+ min or take the first thing u have found (also someone could actually left and u could also have to wait more and piss off all other player) Choose and discuss was already a thing. The issue was not knowing who you are playing against that made your comp not always a solution. Edit : https://euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/new-champ-select-replaces-team-builder And https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7q7gb8/did_they_ever_say_why_they_removed_team_builder/ make most of my point Edit 2: Seem like reddit link turned on a giant LoL logo but it is a reddit link
> [{quoted}](name=Killer of Night9,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQORnEfX,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-05T09:02:49.618+0000) > > Team builder popularity largely dropped as the mode keep staying online unlike draft and blind pick who stayed pretty relevant and this is due to it's longer queue time. This simply isnt true. Unfortunately we dont actually have the data to back up either claim. Also, dont compare drafted modes like draft, clash, and team builder to blind pick, ARAM, and rotated modes. Its bad taste and doesnt represent the argument. > It was not a regional thing, i'm not talking only on personal experience but if u see old teambuilder post u will find the same quote. Kindly, EU doesnt have a sterling reputation in terms of community. I played a good many games of team builder and never had an issue; if i wanted to do something weird, i discussed it or went on my way. > Also if it wasn't a issue then why do you think that riot create autofill? Riot doesnt exactly do well thought out decisions. Autofill had nothing to do with "low popularity"; it had everything to do with shortening queue times in general and has directly led to the degradation of the game as a whole by reducing the standard experience and inducing negativity. > Longer queue time and champion out of role was really and really common expecially in his last year of life, sure u could expell them but u had to find another player and since the queue time was longer u had to choose if wait 40+ min or take the first thing u have found (also someone could actually left and u could also have to wait more and piss off all other player) This is a problem that is caused, explicitly, by the team builder playerbase being split. > Choose and discuss was already a thing. No, it wasnt. Unless you played premades, no one uses champ select chat because you need to change your runes or youre simply not paying attention. Team builder allowed players to actually discuss, and queue when ready. > The issue was not knowing who you are playing against that made your comp not always a solution. A problem whose solution i addressed. Im not saying team builder as it was should replace the current ranked champion select, im saying that the concepts team builder was based on should be integrated.
Cloud273 (NA)
: I think this is the wrong way to balance Yuumi. Rather than gutting everything in her kit, I think they should give her limits on how long she can be attached to someone. That way she can't just pocket heal whoever the strongest person on her team is all game.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-05T07:55:17.892+0000) > > I think this is the wrong way to balance Yuumi. Rather than gutting everything in her kit, I think they should give her limits on how long she can be attached to someone. That way she can't just pocket heal whoever the strongest person on her team is all game. This goes against _EVERYTHING_ Yuumi is supposed to be. A time limit makes 0 sense from a gameplay standpoint, and if youre going to go down that route why not just make her into IO from dota 2 and turn her E into a toggle that deals %HP damage to her and gives her ally increased mana and HP regen based on hers?
: Even tho Team builder was a good idea ipotetically (being able to build up your teamcomp based around sinergy), it was a bad idea on pratice and will probably never come back due to different reason: 1. Even tho you could not care about the long time queue, 90% of the playerbase didn't like it, this was due to the fact that noone liked support or jungle (just like nowadays) and everyone queue up for mid or top (i remenber that i went from 30+ min as sololane to 30 s as support, autofill has compensated this issue but also most other change too (support item overall better and satisfying, increased aggressive path of shield bot for making them fun to play as, buff to catcher such as thresh or naut, mage bot and new aggressive champ such as senna or pyke). 2. Due to the fact that everyone queue up for mid or top, you will found mostly off meta pick on other lane or trollish champ because they wanted to play the game without queue time but they didn't take it seriusly (eg yasuo support and jungle was pretty common) and this caused an overall reduction of your team sanity. 3. If u picked an off role pick on a popular role, u ended up waiting even longer than people that queue up with a meta pick or a filling pick (eg ap into a full ad comp) and also would end up into strange build comp (no supp duo mid for example or all mid) 4. The cool idea of building your teamcomp was overall good but due to the difficulty of finding some player and especially the fact that u don't know who you are playing against made the initial idea not working. If i would try to build an hook team comp but the enemy pick up amumu,leona,morgana for example, if they were good enough, my team comp would never work and i would be stuck into a game that i wasn't playing. This was fix on draft pick with ban and the fact that u can know who you are playing against. Point 1 could easily fix by putting an autofill system on it but the only reason that people want this mode again was because u had no autofill. If draft had no autofill, the mode would be liked much more in term of design but will be also hated more because long queue would be back.
> [{quoted}](name=Killer of Night9,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQORnEfX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-05T06:50:13.355+0000) > > Even tho Team builder was a good idea ipotetically (being able to build up your teamcomp based around sinergy), it was a bad idea on pratice and will probably never come back due to different reason: > 1. Even tho you could not care about the long time queue, 90% of the playerbase didn't like it, this was due to the fact that noone liked support or jungle (just like nowadays) and everyone queue up for mid or top (i remenber that i went from 30+ min as sololane to 30 s as support, autofill has compensated this issue but also most other change too (support item overall better and satisfying, increased aggressive path of shield bot for making them fun to play as, buff to catcher such as thresh or naut, mage bot and new aggressive champ such as senna or pyke). Counter: Team building was an alternative to normal draft, rather than temporarily replacing ranked draft. The reason it had long queue times was EXPLICITLY because its playerbase was split between ranked, draft, and team builder. Even for the split, team builder had impressive popularity and queue times were still within what we consider "normal" now. > 2. Due to the fact that everyone queue up for mid or top, you will found mostly off meta pick on other lane or trollish champ because they wanted to play the game without queue time but they didn't take it seriusly (eg yasuo support and jungle was pretty common) and this caused an overall reduction of your team sanity. This might have been a regional thing, because i dont remember that at all. Even when those kinds of things DID happen, they were kicked. > 3. If u picked an off role pick on a popular role, u ended up waiting even longer than people that queue up with a meta pick or a filling pick (eg ap into a full ad comp) and also would end up into strange build comp (no supp duo mid for example or all mid) This might also be a region specific problem, compounded by the fact the playerbase was split. > 4. The cool idea of building your teamcomp was overall good but due to the difficulty of finding some player and especially the fact that u don't know who you are playing against made the initial idea not working. This particular complaint is remedied fairly simply by using the "declare" system we already have. Team builder allowed people to CHOOSE their team mates and DISCUSS strategy and composition. By making picks soft instead of hard your inflexibility complaint is solved.
: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-05T07:27:10.020+0000) > > Oh god please no. This is an absolutely terrible idea that turns Yuumi into a very, very poor imitation of bard. She is _NOT_ meant to be a roaming support, and trying to turn her into an "easily distracted" minigame makes her a troll pick in every sense of the phrase. > The adaptive power is very nice and helps Yuumi be a viable pick vs every other enchanter, since she doesnt bring much to the table besides an average heal, situational semi-hard CC, and making her lane a 1v2. > > To be perfectly honest Yuumi needs her Q changed to not slow. Its situational and usually amounts to nothing at this point since its been nerfed into the ground. Haha yeah thats true. The idea wasn't really to focus on roaming, but more to just give her a reason to not be attached to allies so much. It doesn't have to be something she has to go around at pick up. I see your point tho lol. And yes I completely agree that the slow should just be removed, at this point it isn't doing anything for her kit.
> [{quoted}](name=Gloomsnooze,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-05T07:32:31.372+0000) > > Haha yeah thats true. The idea wasn't really to focus on roaming, but more to just give her a reason to not be attached to allies so much. It doesn't have to be something she has to go around at pick up. I see your point tho lol. And yes I completely agree that the slow should just be removed, at this point it isn't doing anything for her kit. I think... if you want to push Yuumi into being off her carry more, shouldnt you make her passive more of an incentive for that? Why not make her passive a spell blade that slows by 20% for 1 second instead of a timed empowered auto attack? Spell blade is honestly an extremely under utilized way to incentivize interaction, and mostly given to already strong carries like Riven and Sylas who dont need it...
: 9.24 Yuumi feedback
> [{quoted}](name=Gloomsnooze,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NxE6wmBq,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-12-05T06:58:28.995+0000) > > My recommendation for Yuumi's W: Revert it back, then remove the adaptive force entirely. Then make it so that her W slowly gains stacks/power over time while she is unattached from allies. Once she attaches each stack empowers her allies next auto attack to do extra magic damage. This not only encourages playing more independently while still keeping the core Idea of her W making her allies stronger while she's attached. These stacks could even be collectible moon-moths floating around the rift as a nod to her lore. This would also encourage Yuumi players to build boots, move on their own to ward more and walk to objectives on their own rather than sitting on allies the whole time. I think frolicking around and collecting moon-moths is exactly the type of thing Yuumi would do and it fits her character perfectly. Oh god please no. This is an absolutely terrible idea that turns Yuumi into a very, very poor imitation of bard. She is _NOT_ meant to be a roaming support, and trying to turn her into an "easily distracted" minigame makes her a troll pick in every sense of the phrase. The adaptive power is very nice and helps Yuumi be a viable pick vs every other enchanter, since she doesnt bring much to the table besides an average heal, situational semi-hard CC, and making her lane a 1v2. To be perfectly honest Yuumi needs her Q changed to not slow. Its situational and usually amounts to nothing at this point since its been nerfed into the ground.
: > [{quoted}](name=Dave128,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NwKXVd6e,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-12-03T18:59:59.223+0000) > > If they want to enforce this meta so hard then why not make the item only purchasable by the player in the support role? Seems like that would fix most of the issues. That being said, there are a number of situations where a support would need to CS early game as well. Lets say your ADC over steps and dies with a stacked wave pushing in. Why is the support punished for trying to CS those waves that would otherwise just crash into tower? If they die again and you are in the same situation you are punished for buying the support item and needing to CS. > > As others have said (and resonates particularly with support mains) is that you can't control your team and sometimes you just gotta CS. Whether it's swapping lanes for a DC'd player, a terrible bot laner that leaves you no choice but to CS under tower, or just defending the base late game. I don't think that support role is trash or anything with new items and systems, it just feels really bad when you are **punished** for CSing waves when it is **necessary** as a support player. If people didn't troll so hard we wouldn't even have to worry about it. And the reason it can't only be purchasable by the support role is due to autofills and people swapping in Champ select.
> [{quoted}](name=trfatboy22,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NwKXVd6e,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-12-03T20:25:39.811+0000) > > If people didn't troll so hard we wouldn't even have to worry about it. And the reason it can't only be purchasable by the support role is due to autofills and people swapping in Champ select. Hey! I know this is a late reply but... Isnt the solution to this simply removing blind pick and assigning roles explicitly, then force players to trade roles in champ select? We already have the trade champion button. Just add a second one that trades role. This would also allow riot to truly punish "trolls" for going off meta, such as double top, double jungler, roaming, dedicated counter jungle, proxy, etc.
: alcoves
I think the alcoves are meant for stalling, not actually escaping or sneaking... You basically play peekaboo with someone in them, because theyre small enough that you cant escape but vision is constantly lost.
: So uhhh... Is Elder Dragon fair?
Elder drake is most certainly a "win more" mechanic that is meant to force teams to surrender instead of fighting back. Honestly the sheer strength of these dragons makes them mega objectives you should be playing around the SECOND theyre up.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: I asked for examples on level 6 junglers that aren't good, what you gave me is random shit that has never worked in the jungle that isn't working right now either lmao
> [{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lXyEvdAR,comment-id=00050002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T23:11:23.621+0000) > > I asked for examples on level 6 junglers that aren't good, what you gave me is random shit that has never worked in the jungle that isn't working right now either lmao ... Because the main reason why level 6 junglers exist is because they lack CC or kill potential pre-6? I dont know if you havent noticed or something but most junglers which are meta or even just majorly picked as junglers are chosen because, explicitly, they have hard CC, or damage in addition to strong gap closers in ther basic abilities. The only times youl get post six junglers is when youre playing off meta.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: https://u.gg/lol/champions/skarner/runes?rank=master_plus people just need to realize you take conq on him and he will have a very strong wr. >just because its not meta doesnt mean it doesnt work. I mean it might work in gold, its not gonna work against competent players though, but if your point of "level 6 junglers are weak" was that "ashe, lucian and kassadin jungle aren't strong" then yes I do agree.
> [{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lXyEvdAR,comment-id=000500020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T22:52:41.386+0000) > > https://u.gg/lol/champions/skarner/runes?rank=master_plus > people just need to realize you take conq on him and he will have a very strong wr. > > I mean it might work in gold, its not gonna work against competent players though, but if your point of "level 6 junglers are weak" was that "ashe, lucian and kassadin jungle aren't strong" then yes I do agree. Real talk here bub, an unpopular champion only played by mains and enthusiasts does NOT a strong champion make. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/skarner/jungle You realize things can work and not be meta, right? Functioning acceptably and being meta are entirely different realms of general strength. You asked for examples after having the concept be explained to you, and now youre refusing the examples given because their major role isnt jungle right now? Talk about moving the goal post.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: skarner is very strong as well rn, lucian ... is a jungler ... and a level 6 jungler ...? kassadin jungle ...? well I guess you just have no idea what game we're playing lmao
> [{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lXyEvdAR,comment-id=0005000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T22:07:51.976+0000) > > skarner is very strong as well rn, lucian ... is a jungler ... and a level 6 jungler ...? kassadin jungle ...? well I guess you just have no idea what game we're playing lmao Skarner? Strong? Can i have some proof for that claim? Also i did state they were uncommon, just because its not meta doesnt mean it doesnt work. In lucians case his passive applies on hit effects, so you build blood razor. Gives him a very strong clear.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: I was more of looking for concrete examples rather than for you to explain the concept to me, vi is strong, ww is strong, kayn is strong, yi is strong, karthus is strong, noc is strong ... the only farming or level 6 jungler that's weak rn is graves but his pretty alright as well.
> [{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lXyEvdAR,comment-id=00050002000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T21:22:06.052+0000) > > I was more of looking for concrete examples rather than for you to explain the concept to me, vi is strong, ww is strong, kayn is strong, yi is strong, karthus is strong, noc is strong ... the only farming or level 6 jungler that's weak rn is graves but his pretty alright as well. None of the champions you mentioned beyond karthus and nocturne are level 6 junglers. Karthus was meta, i forgot about him, but hes not meta anymore. {{champion:90}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:236}} Malzahar and skarner are uncommon junglers who rely entirely on their level 6 to function, but once they hit level six their ganks become very strong. Lucian is also a rare jungler, but very strong once he starts scaling (like all marksmen). {{champion:9}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:54}} are probably more common - and iconic - level 6 junglers. Although malphite at least has his slow pre-six.
Nahath (NA)
: It would be interesting to test this by playing without a dedicated jungler (though you'd need four other people to go along with you). My theory is that if jungling is too weak, then this strategy would be superior (or at least equal) to having a jungler. On the other hand, if including a jungler is still the most effective way to play, then the jungle nerfs are appropriate from a balance perspective. I say from a "balance" perspective because they may still be bad from a fun perspective. It could be the case that the benefits of having a character who is only visible when he ganks or passes a ward outweigh the drawbacks of that character being underleveled, but that the experience of playing the underleveled character is unrewarding. In my own experience, jungling has definitely become less rewarding for me, particularly when I gank someone two levels above me and get nuked, but I also wonder if what has really happened is that the jungler's power to win the game has simply been brought in line with that of the other characters. I'm still undecided.
> [{quoted}](name=Nahath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XgzAVNHy,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-26T20:58:56.312+0000) > > It would be interesting to test this by playing without a dedicated jungler (though you'd need four other people to go along with you). My theory is that if jungling is too weak, then this strategy would be superior (or at least equal) to having a jungler. > > On the other hand, if including a jungler is still the most effective way to play, then the jungle nerfs are appropriate from a balance perspective. > > I say from a "balance" perspective because they may still be bad from a fun perspective. It could be the case that the benefits of having a character who is only visible when he ganks or passes a ward outweigh the drawbacks of that character being underleveled, but that the experience of playing the underleveled character is unrewarding. > > In my own experience, jungling has definitely become less rewarding for me, particularly when I gank someone two levels above me and get nuked, but I also wonder if what has really happened is that the jungler's power to win the game has simply been brought in line with that of the other characters. I'm still undecided. Double marksman, double support, roaming mid is a viable strategy. But the meta is so ingrained in peoples heads they cannot deviate.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: what's a "level 6" or "scaling" jungler? from what I'm seeing those are doing just fine after the changes.
> [{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lXyEvdAR,comment-id=000500020000,timestamp=2019-11-26T19:36:31.847+0000) > > what's a "level 6" or "scaling" jungler? from what I'm seeing those are doing just fine after the changes. Level 6 junglers are ones who become capable of effective ganks/securing kills post 6. The previous season the only meta level 6 jungler was Nocturne, who was nerfed for it. Scaling junglers are also known as "farm" junglers. They have good clear speeds and less than average ganking ability, relying on their clear speed and team to give them enough gold and time to actually scale. Both of which are dramatically inferior to the traditional "take big camp gank" jungler riot has instituted as meta, because they have low game presence and low pressure until they hit their stride. In low ELO this isnt as important, but the higher up you go the more important arming speed is for a jungler because their main goal is to get their carries fed or put pressure top to stifle the enemy junglers tempo. Its the difference between a missile that takes sixty minutes to arm but can level a base versus a missile that takes ten minutes to arm and is about as powerful as a stick of tnt. In that sixty minutes, the enemy gets off six missiles that can completely derail your operations and render your one more powerful missile useless because youre already on the backfoot.
5050BS (NA)
: No. The game needed these jungle nerfs for a reason. Jungle has been too strong. Now you have to play smarter and go for objectives not just perma gank every minute of the game.
> [{quoted}](name=5050BS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XgzAVNHy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-26T18:57:03.619+0000) > > No. > > The game needed these jungle nerfs for a reason. Jungle has been too strong. Now you have to play smarter and go for objectives not just perma gank every minute of the game. I hope you realize that this isnt true across the board and that "The jungle being strong" is due to riots continued changes that force only A and above tier junglers into it as the only ones capable of clearing camps fast enough. Do you know what every common jungler has in common? They: 1) Are mobile 2) Have multiple AoE abilities 3) Have built in sustain 4) How relatively low cooldowns for their main abilities The jungle itself isnt a strong, dominant position. The champions who make up its roster are strong, dominant champions. Its a very subtle but extremely important difference.
: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dsOGlM7K,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-20T23:34:28.545+0000) > > Let me be frank. > If you, an EZREAL, are unable to escape a gank of anything except a Vi or other targeted hard CC... multiple times... You are a bad Ezreal. > Ezreal is bar none the safest marksman in the entire game. if you find yourself failing at being safe on him, thats nothing to do with the absence of a keystone he broke and entirely to do with you. > > Stop begging for ezreal buffs when he needs nothing done to him except a minor rework to make his Q not proc on hit effects so he can be balanced like a normal champion instead of a problem child. 46% win rate lowest next to kalista rated in the d tier of adcs with corki, you must be joking to think ezreal is a problem or even a factor in a game winning, but he will be camped to no end and cause your team to not have an adc. only bad enemies will let an ez scale and ignore him in team fights. without klepto he cant scale at all because he has to rush tear or be useless, he is all skillshots and aa does less damage than almost all adcs because of crit being so broken and its even more broken now, untill ezreal can build crit like a normal adc he will remain trash tier. not to mention his items cost more than crit items if he wants to similar damage and if he goes the cheaper build with gauntlet he will do next to 0 damage and just be an annoying poke champ.
> [{quoted}](name=Its All Skillzz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dsOGlM7K,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-20T23:56:37.995+0000) > > 46% win rate lowest next to kalista rated in the d tier of adcs with corki, you must be joking to think ezreal is a problem or even a factor in a game winning, but he will be camped to no end and cause your team to not have an adc. only bad enemies will let an ez scale and ignore him in team fights. without klepto he cant scale at all because he has to rush tear or be useless, he is all skillshots and aa does less damage than almost all adcs because of crit being so broken and its even more broken now, untill ezreal can build crit like a normal adc he will remain trash tier. not to mention his items cost more than crit items if he wants to similar damage and if he goes the cheaper build with gauntlet he will do next to 0 damage and just be an annoying poke champ. He has a 20% popularity rate. This means hes picked or banned in 20% of games. If you appear in ONE FIFTH of all games, a 46% win rate is _NORMAL_ and to be expected. Yuumi for example has a 43% win rate and a 5% pick rate, do you think SHES under powered? How about aurelion sol with a 1.5% pick rate and a 55% win rate? Is he broken?
: I will never understand this bizarre logic. So only Chinese/Asian people enjoy fast paced games?
> [{quoted}](name=KVbqbFsC8e,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ZMfnoRZ,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-11-20T21:30:49.854+0000) > > I will never understand this bizarre logic. So only Chinese/Asian people enjoy fast paced games? In Korea and China less people own capable PCs (or have the time/space/privacy to game) and utilize internet cafes, gaming clubs, or PC rooms. In order to cater to this large audience pool riot has intentionally sped up the game to cater to a market which only has an hour or two to play at a time. They have also changed from a western growth system to an eastern growth system; you no longer get currency per game to plan around and see tangable growth, and instead the game is an RNG heavy infinite grind with no end in sight and no short term goals outside of ranked. Between game speed and progression League of Legends is entirely an eastern game pretending to cater for both markets locally. Like a spy playing both sides. To be honest its something riot NEEDS to address. They need to make a decision on whether or not theyre an eastern audience game or a western audience game, and then reboot accordingly.
: > [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dsOGlM7K,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-20T22:56:37.945+0000) > > ye klepto allowed for shit tier ezreal players to be relevant somehow > just like klepto allows awful kayls to be relevant > > but having offensive runes always was better if you were actually the better player > > following that logic it just means that now you actually have to learn the champion instead of bypassing lane dyanamics and dangers by just because no what it will come dow to is you will get camped an dived esp if you are mid or a solo lane because you are so weak with no cc that anyone can just kill you. and even worst in bot lane. cause you will get zoned off cs.
> [{quoted}](name=Its All Skillzz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dsOGlM7K,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-20T23:24:04.209+0000) > > no what it will come dow to is you will get camped an dived esp if you are mid or a solo lane because you are so weak with no cc that anyone can just kill you. and even worst in bot lane. cause you will get zoned off cs. Let me be frank. If you, an EZREAL, are unable to escape a gank of anything except a Vi or other targeted hard CC... multiple times... You are a bad Ezreal. Ezreal is bar none the safest marksman in the entire game. if you find yourself failing at being safe on him, thats nothing to do with the absence of a keystone he broke and entirely to do with you. Stop begging for ezreal buffs when he needs nothing done to him except a minor rework to make his Q not proc on hit effects so he can be balanced like a normal champion instead of a problem child.
Sakk (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TqfEB5hI,comment-id=0002000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-20T16:16:23.519+0000) > > That "big nerf" was warranted and while it had a major flaw that needed to be fixed, it was the healthiest the game had been in years. > At the time marksman had a 4 item core. It needed to be reduced to 3 tems. the game was healthy until that update came out. That update started a big downfall for the game and made a lot of people hate it and stop playing. so thats cap
> [{quoted}](name=Sakk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TqfEB5hI,comment-id=00020000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-20T19:31:24.952+0000) > > the game was healthy until that update came out. That update started a big downfall for the game and made a lot of people hate it and stop playing. so thats cap You clearly dont remember that time then. Before the crit item rework marksmen were ultra dominant, VIABLE comps having 5 marksmen were not uncommon and often times the bot lane that got ahead stayed so far ahead that the behind team was unable to do anything. Late game at two items was a reality, not a meme.
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