Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:49:45.814+0000) > > You missed the rest of the math. I'll help you out by quoting myself for the second time in this thread. Just making sure no nefarious hiding of data is happening here. Yes, because penetrating armor scales well. But again, armor is cheaper than lethality, and 1 lethality only negates 1 armor. It is cheaper to counter lethality than it is for lethality to counter armor. Lethality is good against low armor targets, its not good against high armor targets (lethality doesnt come with any multiplicative stats other than lethality itself, so youre not getting the AS you need to make lethality do anything to high AR targets) All youve proven is that 190 AD + lethality > 190 AD, which, of course, its 2 things versus 1.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000006,timestamp=2019-10-14T22:56:50.283+0000) > > Very well, you'd handwave the easy examples. What of the complex ones? I understand not everyone is versed in this level of mathematics, so I don't expect you to understand all the formulae, but what of the solutions? How do you explain that degree of value discrepancy? What value discrepancy? The fact that completed items come with massive passive bonuses because thats literally the point of a completed item? Theres no discrepancy.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:49:45.814+0000) > > You missed the rest of the math. I'll help you out by quoting myself for the second time in this thread. Just making sure no nefarious hiding of data is happening here. Yes, because penetrating armor scales well. But again, armor is cheaper than lethality, and 1 lethality only negates 1 armor. It is cheaper to counter lethality than it is for lethality to counter armor. Lethality is good against low armor targets, its not good against high armor targets (lethality doesnt come with any multiplicative stats other than lethality itself, so youre not getting the AS you need to make lethality do anything to high AR targets) All youve proven is that 190 AD + lethality > 190 AD, which, of course, its 2 things versus 1.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000004,timestamp=2019-10-14T21:54:58.452+0000) > > I'm gonna go ahead and "nah" this one. > > I ran the numbers. The real simple comparison was right here in plain sight, elementary mathematics: > > {{item:1036}} > **Cost:** 350 gold > **Stats:** +10 AD > **Effects:** None > **Cost per Stat:** 350 / 10 = **35 gold** > > {{item:1038}} > **Cost:** 1,300 gold > **Stats:** +40 AD > **Effects:** None > **Cost per Stat:** 1300 / 40 = **32.5 gold** > > {{item:1052}} > **Cost:** 435 gold > **Stats:** +20 AP > **Effects:** None > **Cost per Stat:** 435 / 20 = **21.75 gold** > > {{item:1058}} > **Cost:** 1,250 gold > **Stats:** +60 AP > **Effects:** None > **Cost per Stat:** 1250 / 60 = **20.83 gold** > > Right there your illusion is broken. These numbers don't align whatsoever. You could blame it on scaling, where gold becomes more plentiful later on so items cost more... Only items cost _less_ per stat as you get into the bigger base items. > > But here are some more in-depth numbers. Let's take a journey into university mathematics! > > {{item:3123}} > **Cost:** 450 (+350) gold > **Stats:** +5 (+10) AD > **Effects:** Grievous Wounds (t. 3) > **Cost per Stat:** > - Grievous Wounds: 450 / (t \* [prphAct / pRvFact]) \* (sRvFact / 6) = **386.29 gold** ergo, > - AD: (450 - [Grievous Wounds CpS]) / 5 = **12.74 gold** > > Look at how _insanely_ out of whack this is right now, purely because healing is such a _massive_ factor at the moment. Here's another of the few items that can, in fact, be quantified if you take an hour to dig into the data and formulate the calculations: > > {{item:3089}} > **Cost:** 2,600 (+1,100) gold > **Stats:** +0 (+120) AP > **Effects:** +40% AP (which we'll call "AP Delta") > **Cost per Stat:** > - AP: **0 gold** > - AP Delta: **2,600 gold** > > That doesn't seem quite right. So I did the math on how AP Delta _should_ valuate, assuming the estimate of 27 million daily players is accurate: > > ([Max Level] \* [prphAct / pRvFact] \* [prvΔ / 27000000]) / 6 = **4,211.6 gold** > > Proof positive that the damage is overtuned, because no _full item_ should cost over 4,000 gold, yet mathematics state that fairly, by your supposition of concrete value driving item costs, the 40% AP bonus _alone_ should cost 4,212 gold. Do you see how how preposterous this all looks? You really dont get it, do you? The higher cost items are more efficient because you must sit on the gold longer to purchase an item. AD costs 35g per AD. Period. As stated in your example. BF sword gives more AD than cost because you must hold the gold. This is common knowledge and not complicated. You have no credible argument you can make.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:49:45.814+0000) > > You missed the rest of the math. I'll help you out by quoting myself for the second time in this thread. Just making sure no nefarious hiding of data is happening here. Yes, because penetrating armor scales well. But again, armor is cheaper than lethality, and 1 lethality only negates 1 armor. It is cheaper to counter lethality than it is for lethality to counter armor. Lethality is good against low armor targets, its not good against high armor targets (lethality doesnt come with any multiplicative stats other than lethality itself, so youre not getting the AS you need to make lethality do anything to high AR targets) All youve proven is that 190 AD + lethality > 190 AD, which, of course, its 2 things versus 1.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000002,timestamp=2019-10-14T18:42:15.944+0000) > > If that were true, full items would have a static cost that equates to the stats they provide and nothing more than this. Either the cost of items is arbitrary or it's rooted in mathematics. It cannot be both. The only parts of them without a static cost are the unique effects inherently on the items. The stats are all defined costs. Ontop of this, you generally get MORE base stats than you paid for on completed items as a general rule of efficiency.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:49:45.814+0000) > > You missed the rest of the math. I'll help you out by quoting myself for the second time in this thread. Just making sure no nefarious hiding of data is happening here. Yes, because penetrating armor scales well. But again, armor is cheaper than lethality, and 1 lethality only negates 1 armor. It is cheaper to counter lethality than it is for lethality to counter armor. Lethality is good against low armor targets, its not good against high armor targets (lethality doesnt come with any multiplicative stats other than lethality itself, so youre not getting the AS you need to make lethality do anything to high AR targets) All youve proven is that 190 AD + lethality > 190 AD, which, of course, its 2 things versus 1.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T18:13:57.685+0000) > > Not only is that functionally untrue (tanks don't generally have the gold to burn that assassins do), but it's statistically untrue. > > "Lethality has a gold value of 22.5 per point." > "Attack damage has a gold value of 35 per point." > "Armor has a gold value of 20 per point." > "Health has a gold value of 2.67 per point." > > {{item:3147}} > **Lethality (21):** 472.5 gold > **Attack Damage (55):** 1,925 gold > **Total:** 2,397.5 gold > **Item Cost:** 2,900 gold (difference of 502.5) > > {{item:3075}} > **Armor (80):** 1,600 gold > **Health (250):** 667.5 gold > **Total:** 2,267.5 gold > **Item Cost:** 2,900 gold (difference of 632.5) > > My point is, who valuates the bonus effects of each item? If they can't be given a concrete value, **how can stats then be given a concrete value**? Are they going purely on early build items that only build stats? In other words, you're applying valuation an athlete's contract primarily on his height and weight, starting with the least proficient player in the league. > > You can't place hard value on something with intangible value, which is why my calculations were approximate based on percentile reduction of the actual hard stats involved in the calculation. Stats are given a concrete value because there is a concrete item that gives that stat at a specific cost. Its not that complicated.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:40:56.219+0000) > > "If you buy items, you do more damage". > > That is the argument you are making. You missed the rest of the math. I'll help you out by quoting myself for the second time in this thread. Just making sure no nefarious hiding of data is happening here. > Damage Taken: 24% > Damage from a Talon crit (no AD items): 52 (accounting for Randuin reduction) > Damage Taken: 29% > Damage from a Talon crit (**with item AD** [of 190]): 162 (accounting for Randuin reduction) > Building the same amount of raw AD (190) with no Lethality would take you from 52 damage to 74 damage, an increase of only 0.7 times. > You get an additional 240% damage by building Lethality with that 190 AD than you would if you had only built the 190 AD.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:49:45.814+0000) > > You missed the rest of the math. I'll help you out by quoting myself for the second time in this thread. Just making sure no nefarious hiding of data is happening here. Yes, because penetrating armor scales well. But again, armor is cheaper than lethality, and 1 lethality only negates 1 armor. It is cheaper to counter lethality than it is for lethality to counter armor. Lethality is good against low armor targets, its not good against high armor targets (lethality doesnt come with any multiplicative stats other than lethality itself, so youre not getting the AS you need to make lethality do anything to high AR targets) All youve proven is that 190 AD + lethality > 190 AD, which, of course, its 2 things versus 1.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:34:58.531+0000) > > You cant be serious > > {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} How else am I going to measure the practical impact of Lethality items? I wasn't suggesting this is how Talon builds, I was using Talon as a mannequin to measure the impact of Lethality items. What problem do you have with this method, exactly? In terms deeper than "it's stupid", please. I like to improve my arguments with constructive criticism.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:38:10.278+0000) > > How else am I going to measure the practical impact of Lethality items? I wasn't suggesting this is how Talon builds, I was using Talon as a mannequin to measure the impact of Lethality items. What problem do you have with this method, exactly? In terms deeper than "it's stupid", please. I like to improve my arguments with constructive criticism. "If you buy items, you do more damage". That is the argument you are making.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:21:24.868+0000) > > ? What game do you play where they go onto tanks successfully? Because that is not a thing that ever happens unless the tank is out of position and its a 2v1 or they have low HP. I play the tank game. I'm one of the few people who still try to pure tank. I die for my team 5-15 times a game. How often do you sacrifice for your team? Far as OP.GG knows, you play exclusively against bots and only once as anything resembling a tank, who you built for pure damage. I don't mean to be rude, but as far as my research can gather, the last time you've experienced the tank role for a meaningful span was in season 6. The advent of the Tank Meta. Why would I expect you to know the trials of playing a tank against this meta's assassins?
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:32:08.541+0000) > > I play the tank game. I'm one of the few people who still try to pure tank. I die for my team 5-15 times a game. How often do you sacrifice for your team? Far as OP.GG knows, you play exclusively against bots and only once as anything resembling a tank, who you built for pure damage. I don't mean to be rude, but as far as my research can gather, the last time you've experienced the tank role for a meaningful span was in season 6. The advent of the Tank Meta. Why would I expect you to know the trials of playing a tank against this meta's assassins? Because im a leona main, who is a tank. Yeah, i like playing other shit too. Doesnt mean i dont know how to tank. If youre having problems with assassins.... thats on you. Thats YOUR fault. Assassins physically cannot do anything to a tank unless theyre out of position and give the assassin all the time in the world to kill them. Hell, even as a squishy i rarely have problems with assassins, because i still understand my role as the support and carry exhaust when needed into assassins. Is REALLY not that hard or complicated to deal with them. Assassin goes in, either displace them, reduce their damage or throw your defensive CDs on their target, and you win.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:09:22.842+0000) > > Holy hell ***WUT?*** > > Armor has a cost of 20g each so 67 flat pen negates 1370g, not 2400g. Second, you seem to think that flat pen counters armor when it's literally the exact opposite. Armor and flat pen cancel each other out equally. 1 armor cancels out 1 flat pen and vice versa. However, armor is far cheaper than lethality in both actual cost and opportunity cost. This is why flat pen is absolute dogshit against tanks and why armor is a direct counter to it, not vice versa. Everyone already knows this. You can completely cancel 3 ***full*** lethality items worth of Lethality with a single {{item:3075}} and still have an extra 30 left over to negate some of the AD > > Second, wtf is your math? > Total Armor: 310 > Damage Taken: 24% > Damage from a Talon crit (no AD items): 52 (accounting for Randuin reduction) > Damage Taken: 29% > Damage from a Talon crit (with item AD): 162 (accounting for Randuin reduction) > Effective Armor Negation: 310 - 67 = -67 Armor > Effective Cost Negation (Assassin's of Tank's): 310 armor - 67 armor = 0.21 * 11,250 = 2,431 gold negated > > How the hell does damage taken increase by a fifth but you claim the damage ***triples***? Like what the fuck? Thats not how math works. 5/24 is about a fifth, not triple. The tank would take ***a fifth*** more damage with the flat pen than without it. Triple? What? > > ....Did you calculate the damage a Talon with no items would do then compare it to a Talon with items and then try to say the lethality was doing all of that?? I compared a Talon with no items to at Talon with only Lethality items. The point was that in addition to Lethality, those items add a substantial amount of raw AD for very little cost. This is chiefly what makes them imbalanced. By building purely Lethality items, Talon can triple his basic attack output against a tank with 310 armor. Building the same amount of raw AD (190) with no Lethality would take you from 52 damage to 74 damage, an increase of only 0.7 times. You get an additional 240% damage by building Lethality with that 190 AD than you would if you had only built the 190 AD. Edit: Sorry, my math was wrong. 0.7 times, not 1.7 times. It's even worse than I thought.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:22:32.909+0000) > > I compared a Talon with no items to at Talon with only Lethality items. The point was that in addition to Lethality, those items add a substantial amount of raw AD for very little cost. This is chiefly what makes them imbalanced. By building purely Lethality items, Talon can triple his basic attack output against a tank with 310 armor. > > Building the same amount of raw AD (190) with no Lethality would take you from 52 damage to 74 damage, an increase of only 0.7 times. > > You get an additional 240% damage by building Lethality with that 190 AD than you would if you had only built the 190 AD. > > Edit: Sorry, my math was wrong. 0.7 times, not 1.7 times. It's even worse than I thought. Face it, your argument is dead in the water.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:09:30.564+0000) > > Hell, you should NEVER be going in on the tank REGARDLESS. You've hit the nail on the head. We're in a meta where assassins go in on tanks and do it successfully more often than not. This should never happen. They should never go in on the tank at all.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:16:21.768+0000) > > You've hit the nail on the head. We're in a meta where assassins go in on tanks and do it successfully more often than not. This should never happen. They should never go in on the tank at all. ? What game do you play where they go onto tanks successfully? Because that is not a thing that ever happens unless the tank is out of position and its a 2v1 or they have low HP.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:48:56.019+0000) > > Not really. Cleaver is back loaded, burst is front loaded. Unless you want to sit there holding your abilities while waiting for cleaver to stack, youre wasting gold. Assassins go in and get out asap. Cleaver requires you to stay in for extended periods to make use of its stacking. Talon stays in long enough to use his abilities. If he's fighting a tank with no damage, he has no reason to jump out early, so he'll want to sit and grind. But alright, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and take him off the list. Rhaast Kayn stays in. That's why he goes Rhaast. Have you ever seen a Nocturne that doesn't build attack speed? Rengar thrives primarily on basic attacks from bush. Assuming you keep him away from bushes, he might not go all in on you. But generally, he's not going in very hard unless he's by bushes anyway. Zed hangs around to auto through his ult for as long as possible. The more attacks he gets off with Black Cleaver, the more damage his ult does. It makes sense for Zed. AD Shaco sends his clone in hard to do all the AD possible, and often stays in with it, building attack speed for maximum mileage. Why rely on burst when you can have burst to initiate and Cleaver autos to carry you through the fight?
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:05:40.577+0000) > > Talon stays in long enough to use his abilities. If he's fighting a tank with no damage, he has no reason to jump out early, so he'll want to sit and grind. But alright, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and take him off the list. > > Rhaast Kayn stays in. That's why he goes Rhaast. > > Have you ever seen a Nocturne that doesn't build attack speed? > > Rengar thrives primarily on basic attacks from bush. Assuming you keep him away from bushes, he might not go all in on you. But generally, he's not going in very hard unless he's by bushes anyway. > > Zed hangs around to auto through his ult for as long as possible. The more attacks he gets off with Black Cleaver, the more damage his ult does. It makes sense for Zed. > > AD Shaco sends his clone in hard to do all the AD possible, and often stays in with it, building attack speed for maximum mileage. > > Why rely on burst when you can have burst to initiate and Cleaver autos to carry you through the fight? A tank with no damage items WILL 100-0 an assassin with no defensive items through base damage alone. Not to mention hold them still for 5 seconds or more through CC alone. Talon has every reason to get out asap, because tanks dont deal 0 damage and tanks will take away the only defense assassins have; Mobility. Same with literally everyone else you mentioned. Literally all of them will die trying to get cleaver to be worth the gold invested. It is ALWAYS a bad purchase UNLESS youre so far behind and unable to survive that you physically need it to do anything, in which case youre going for a suboptimal build just to be relevant. Hell, you should NEVER be going in on the tank REGARDLESS. You dont need the AR shred on squishy targets, and you will never have enough to deal with a tankier target regardless. Cleaver is never useful for you.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:41:05.414+0000) > > An AD assassin will never kill a tank. Assassins are burst champions, and dont have the burst to kill a tank. Doesnt matter if they have more effective gold than the tank, they cant 100-0 them with that gold. Durability physically counters burst. Even that gimped ADC will do more damage overall than that ad assassin just because theyre DPS based (not to mention theyd likely build a LW if into that heavy a tank) > > Hell, its more likely the tank will kill the assassin 1v1 than it is the assassin will get the kill. I didn't say an AD assassin would kill a tank. They can rapidly soften up a tank for one or two allies to finish off. Assuming the above builds, with no bonus AD apart from what the Lethality items provide, Talon can inflict in less then six seconds, without ulting... - **141 damage** from Noxian Diplomacy (accounting for Randuin). - **125 damage** from Rake. - **141 damage** from Noxian Diplomacy. - **81 damage** from his basic attack. - **181 damage** from his passive. That's a total of 669 damage. Without ulting. Against this build, that's 60% of all the tank's bonus life, gone in six seconds because of a single assassin. You take away the Serrated Dirk and add some raw AD and percentile penetration to that, you're approaching 1,500 damage from a single combo, and that's not even accounting for runes, which are the most disgusting aspect of the damage meta. That's easily a third of this tank's health. You're ignoring the difference in figures between Only Lethality Items and No Items by simply making a strawman statement of "an AD assassin will never kill a tank".
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T17:01:53.909+0000) > > I didn't say an AD assassin would kill a tank. They can rapidly soften up a tank for one or two allies to finish off. Assuming the above builds, with no bonus AD apart from what the Lethality items provide, Talon can inflict in less then six seconds, without ulting... > > - **141 damage** from Noxian Diplomacy (accounting for Randuin). > - **125 damage** from Rake. > - **141 damage** from Noxian Diplomacy. > - **81 damage** from his basic attack. > - **181 damage** from his passive. > > That's a total of 669 damage. Without ulting. Against this build, that's 60% of all the tank's bonus life, gone in six seconds because of a single assassin. You take away the Serrated Dirk and add some raw AD and percentile penetration to that, you're approaching 1,500 damage from a single combo, and that's not even accounting for runes, which are the most disgusting aspect of the damage meta. That's easily a third of this tank's health. > > You're ignoring the difference in figures between Only Lethality Items and No Items by simply making a strawman statement of "an AD assassin will never kill a tank". 669 damage.... to a tank.... with nearly or over 3k HP. Yeah, REALLY softened them up. Such damage. Much wow. Im such afraid of that sub 1/3 of my HP in damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:35:23.993+0000) > > Cleaver isnt a lethality item, and youd NEVER build cleaver with lethality. Lethality was made BECAUSE cleaver is such a garbage item for AD assassins, as it doesnt work for burst. > > Your "core build" is bad and counter productive, making you fall off even faster. AD assassins that stay in the fight long enough to launch multiple basic attacks: - Talon - Kayn - Nocturne - Rengar - Zed - AD Shaco AD assassins: - Kayn - Kha'Zix - Nocturne - Pyke - Qiyana - Rengar - AD Shaco - Talon - Zed That's 67% of all AD assassins that get use out of Black Cleaver.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:45:31.683+0000) > > AD assassins that stay in the fight long enough to launch multiple basic attacks: > > - Talon > - Kayn > - Nocturne > - Rengar > - Zed > - AD Shaco > > AD assassins: > > - Kayn > - Kha'Zix > - Nocturne > - Pyke > - Qiyana > - Rengar > - AD Shaco > - Talon > - Zed > > That's 67% of all AD assassins that get use out of Black Cleaver. Not really. Cleaver is back loaded, burst is front loaded. Unless you want to sit there holding your abilities while waiting for cleaver to stack, youre wasting gold. Assassins go in and get out asap. Cleaver requires you to stay in for extended periods to make use of its stacking.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T14:35:21.907+0000) > > Yes dude they negate the damage you build. Negating damage is the same thing as reducing damage. It negates your AD and AP. Thats literally their entire point lol. Armor/MR negate your AD/AP. Pen negates part of your Armor/MR Let me try to explain this. Armor: Reduces a percentage of damage sustained from physical sources. 100 Armor = -50% physical damage. Can be counteracted through one of various abilities or items that bypass armor. Lethality: Reduces an established amount of armor. 21 Lethality = -21 Armor. Can be counteracted by not being anywhere near the champion with Lethality. So let's assume the _only_ method of penetration a champion is applying is All The Lethality Possible. Let's take a look at two builds, with the same number of items. And I'm not even sure I'm calculating Armor right, I'm being generous. {{item:3110}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3068}} **Cost:** 11,250 **Total Armor:** 310 **Damage Taken:** 24% **Damage from a Talon crit (no AD items):** 52 (accounting for Randuin reduction) {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3134}} {{item:3142}} **Cost:** 9,900 **Bonus AD:** 190 **Armor Reduction:** 67 {{item:3110}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3068}} vs. {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3134}} {{item:3142}} **Total Armor:** 243 **Damage Taken:** 29% **Damage from a Talon crit (with item AD):** 162 (accounting for Randuin reduction) **Effective Armor Negation:** 310 - 67 = **-67 Armor** **Effective Cost Negation (Assassin's of Tank's):** 310 armor - 67 armor = 0.21 \* 11,250 = **2,431 gold negated** **EFFECTIVE GOLD VALUE:** 8,819 vs 9,990 White ONLY these four Lethality items, Talon is inflicting **a little over three times** as much damage as he otherwise would for **1,350 less gold**. Cost negation is ballpark, as it doesn't account for health or utility, but chiefly, these items are damage reduction items. ----- Now let's look at the same build against a Hard AD Jinx build. We'll assume Jinx is using minigun, not rockets. Despite it being one of the top AD items, we **won't use Infinity Edge**, so as to avoid cheesing our crit calculations in favor of the ADC and making my argument look better. We also **won't use any Lethality items**, so the full Armor applies. {{item:3110}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3068}} **Cost:** 11,250 **Total Armor:** 310 **Damage Taken:** 24% **Damage from a Jinx crit (no AD items):** 50 (accounting for Randuin reduction) {{item:3812}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3508}} {{item:3095}} **Cost:** 13,400 **Bonus AD:** 290 **Armor Reduction:** 0 {{item:3110}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3068}} vs. {{item:3812}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3508}} {{item:3095}} **Total Armor:** 310 **Damage Taken:** 24% **Damage from a Jinx crit (with item AD):** 175 (accounting for Randuin reduction) **Effective AD Negation:** 290 - 0.76 = **-220 AD** **Effective Cost Negation (Tank's of ADC's):** 290 AD - 220 AD = 0.76 \* 13,400 = **10,184 gold negated** **EFFECTIVE GOLD VALUE:** 11,250 vs. 3,216 Wait, _what?_ Ah, but realize that **every AD item in this build is at least as useful for its utility as it is for its AD**. Death's Dance provides delayed damage and self-healing. Bloodthirster provides lifesteal and overheal. Essence Reaver provides cooldown reduction, crit chance, and mana recovery. Stormrazor provides kiting potential and bonus magic damage, which wasn't even added to this calculation at all. **These values are not easy to quantify**, and thus I haven't added them to the effective gold calculation at all. Whereas the tank's items are primarily useful for their high Armor value, Jinx's items - like all finished AD items - are primarily useful for the utility they provide. If I were to make a ballpark estimate of the utility value in all these items, I'd put it around 9,000 gold, which would place Jinx's effective value at 12,216... but again, these figures are almost possible to quantify, so this can't be taken as a practical calculation. Of course, I've also skipped a few of the highest AD items because either A, they added crit damage, or B, they added Lethality. In addition, **the tank's entire job is to be a target and soak damage**. The AD carry's job is to **push objectives and wear down melee fighters from a distance**. A tank having 310 armor isn't preventing the ADC from doing her job. She can just avoid him and split push, let her tank block him while she maneuvers to flank squishies, etc. By stripping 21% of the tank's armor **the assassin is actively making a tank 21% less able to do his job** when he tries to draw the assassin's fire. Moreso if Black Cleaver is factored, because it increases _all_ the damage he takes, not only from the assassin. No tank item reduces all damage an ADC inflicts. ---- **In summary**, Lethality items are cheaper than the items other AD champions build, and they're directly responsible for stripping somewhere in the realm of _2,500 gold_ from the tank's net worth. Hard tanks don't generally get to farm, so that gold isn't easy to come by. More likely, by the time the tank even approaches the last of these items, he's already died to the Lethality Assassin several times because said assassin has all his items already. And this doesn't even account for other items an assassin likes to build. I even put Serrated Dirk in there, and no late-game assassin has Serrated Dirk. Gimping the assassin's build, he _still_ significantly hinders the tank's ability to, well, tank. They are not the same thing.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:31:08.413+0000) > > Let me try to explain this. > > Armor: Reduces a percentage of damage sustained from physical sources. 100 Armor = -50% physical damage. Can be counteracted through one of various abilities or items that bypass armor. > > Lethality: Reduces an established amount of armor. 21 Lethality = -21 Armor. Can be counteracted by not being anywhere near the champion with Lethality. > > So let's assume the _only_ method of penetration a champion is applying is All The Lethality Possible. Let's take a look at two builds, with the same number of items. And I'm not even sure I'm calculating Armor right, I'm being generous. > > {{item:3110}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3068}} > **Cost:** 11,250 > **Total Armor:** 310 > **Damage Taken:** 24% > **Damage from a Talon crit (no AD items):** 52 (accounting for Randuin reduction) > > {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3134}} {{item:3142}} > **Cost:** 9,900 > **Bonus AD:** 190 > **Armor Reduction:** 67 > > {{item:3110}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3068}} vs. {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3134}} {{item:3142}} > **Total Armor:** 243 > **Damage Taken:** 29% > **Damage from a Talon crit (with item AD):** 162 (accounting for Randuin reduction) > **Effective Armor Negation:** 310 - 67 = **-67 Armor** > **Effective Cost Negation (Assassin's of Tank's):** 310 armor - 67 armor = 0.21 \* 11,250 = **2,431 gold negated** > > **EFFECTIVE GOLD VALUE:** 8,819 vs 9,990 > > White ONLY these four Lethality items, Talon is inflicting **a little over three times** as much damage as he otherwise would for **1,350 less gold**. Cost negation is ballpark, as it doesn't account for health or utility, but chiefly, these items are damage reduction items. > > ----- > > Now let's look at the same build against a Hard AD Jinx build. We'll assume Jinx is using minigun, not rockets. Despite it being one of the top AD items, we **won't use Infinity Edge**, so as to avoid cheesing our crit calculations in favor of the ADC and making my argument look better. We also **won't use any Lethality items**, so the full Armor applies. > > {{item:3110}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3068}} > **Cost:** 11,250 > **Total Armor:** 310 > **Damage Taken:** 24% > **Damage from a Jinx crit (no AD items):** 50 (accounting for Randuin reduction) > > {{item:3812}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3508}} {{item:3095}} > **Cost:** 13,400 > **Bonus AD:** 290 > **Armor Reduction:** 0 > > {{item:3110}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3068}} vs. {{item:3812}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3508}} {{item:3095}} > **Total Armor:** 310 > **Damage Taken:** 24% > **Damage from a Jinx crit (with item AD):** 175 (accounting for Randuin reduction) > **Effective AD Negation:** 290 - 0.76 = **-220 AD** > **Effective Cost Negation (Tank's of ADC's):** 290 AD - 220 AD = 0.76 \* 13,400 = **10,184 gold negated** > > **EFFECTIVE GOLD VALUE:** 11,250 vs. 3,216 > > Wait, _what?_ Ah, but realize that **every AD item in this build is at least as useful for its utility as it is for its AD**. > > Death's Dance provides delayed damage and self-healing. > Bloodthirster provides lifesteal and overheal. > Essence Reaver provides cooldown reduction, crit chance, and mana recovery. > Stormrazor provides kiting potential and bonus magic damage, which wasn't even added to this calculation at all. > > **These values are not easy to quantify**, and thus I haven't added them to the effective gold calculation at all. Whereas the tank's items are primarily useful for their high Armor value, Jinx's items - like all finished AD items - are primarily useful for the utility they provide. If I were to make a ballpark estimate of the utility value in all these items, I'd put it around 9,000 gold, which would place Jinx's effective value at 12,216... but again, these figures are almost possible to quantify, so this can't be taken as a practical calculation. Of course, I've also skipped a few of the highest AD items because either A, they added crit damage, or B, they added Lethality. > > In addition, **the tank's entire job is to be a target and soak damage**. The AD carry's job is to **push objectives and wear down melee fighters from a distance**. A tank having 310 armor isn't preventing the ADC from doing her job. She can just avoid him and split push, let her tank block him while she maneuvers to flank squishies, etc. By stripping 21% of the tank's armor **the assassin is actively making a tank 21% less able to do his job** when he tries to draw the assassin's fire. Moreso if Black Cleaver is factored, because it increases _all_ the damage he takes, not only from the assassin. No tank item reduces all damage an ADC inflicts. > > ---- > > **In summary**, Lethality items are cheaper than the items other AD champions build, and they're directly responsible for stripping somewhere in the realm of _2,500 gold_ from the tank's net worth. Hard tanks don't generally get to farm, so that gold isn't easy to come by. More likely, by the time the tank even approaches the last of these items, he's already died to the Lethality Assassin several times because said assassin has all his items already. And this doesn't even account for other items an assassin likes to build. I even put Serrated Dirk in there, and no late-game assassin has Serrated Dirk. Gimping the assassin's build, he _still_ significantly hinders the tank's ability to, well, tank. > > They are not the same thing. An AD assassin will never kill a tank. Assassins are burst champions, and dont have the burst to kill a tank. Doesnt matter if they have more effective gold than the tank, they cant 100-0 them with that gold. Durability physically counters burst. Even that gimped ADC will do more damage overall than that ad assassin just because theyre DPS based (not to mention theyd likely build a LW if into that heavy a tank) Hell, its more likely the tank will kill the assassin 1v1 than it is the assassin will get the kill.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:22:11.007+0000) > > Lethality has no HP. You get average damage, 30% CDR because youre an AD mage and thats really it, other than the individual items utility. > > You get no hp, no lifesteal, no crit, no as, no inherent defensive stats outside actives. You have the same problems a burst mage has; youre a one trick pony, and that one trick becomes less useful as the game goes on. {{item:3071}} gives you HP. AND 20% CDR. 20% + 10% + 10% = 40%. You get 40% AND hp in the core build. Can you count?
> [{quoted}](name=Glauciane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:28:13.695+0000) > > {{item:3071}} gives you HP. AND 20% CDR. 20% + 10% + 10% = 40%. You get 40% AND hp in the core build. Can you count? Cleaver isnt a lethality item, and youd NEVER build cleaver with lethality. Lethality was made BECAUSE cleaver is such a garbage item for AD assassins, as it doesnt work for burst. Your "core build" is bad and counter productive, making you fall off even faster.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:16:08.960+0000) > > The tradeoff is youre forced into a dead build late game. You lack defensive options for the first 3 buys, no AS options to multiply the damage and any potential lifesteal buys,and no crit. Come late game, innate stats and supports just innately remove any advantage your build had earlier. And you *need* to build more than 1 lethality item, as it scales with itself. The lack of tradeoff is you being able to build more damage AND full CDR AND more HP in your core 3 builds. No other buildpath in the game allows that.
> [{quoted}](name=Glauciane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:19:50.618+0000) > > The lack of tradeoff is you being able to build more damage AND full CDR AND more HP in your core 3 builds. No other buildpath in the game allows that. Lethality has no HP. You get average damage, 30% CDR because youre an AD mage and thats really it, other than the individual items utility. You get no hp, no lifesteal, no crit, no as, no inherent defensive stats outside actives. You have the same problems a burst mage has; youre a one trick pony, and that one trick becomes less useful as the game goes on.
: > [{quoted}](name=Glauciane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-14T05:58:16.159+0000) > > I hate the way {{item:3285}} is a **must, obvious 1rst item choice** for mages, but it's onlye one item and not half of the buildpath. I kind of wish {{item:3003}} was a better rush item on more champs, especially with riot aiming for shorter games than in the past, but tear is a rough first item as all it gives you is mana.
> [{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-10-14T16:18:07.733+0000) > > I kind of wish {{item:3003}} was a better rush item on more champs, especially with riot aiming for shorter games than in the past, but tear is a rough first item as all it gives you is mana. It gives massive pushing power as well, as a result of the exponential mana it gives in both reduction in cost and stat.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T11:00:24.480+0000) > > Dude this is exactly what armor and MR do lmao. It's their entire point Armor and MR don't negate. They reduce damage on a percentile basis, and they can be bypassed by simply outplaying the other team and hitting squishies first. Lethality literally negates a portion of another player's stat entirely, and the only way around it is to literally avoid the champion building Lethality and not engage at all. Which is the opposite of a tank's job.
> [{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EI3dJWlj,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-14T14:31:59.019+0000) > > Armor and MR don't negate. They reduce damage on a percentile basis, and they can be bypassed by simply outplaying the other team and hitting squishies first. Lethality literally negates a portion of another player's stat entirely, and the only way around it is to literally avoid the champion building Lethality and not engage at all. Which is the opposite of a tank's job. Lethality doesnt do anything to tanks. It negates a small amount of armor, but their innate abilities more than make up for it alone, and thats not even getting into their massive HP pool. If a tank is cowering to a lethality build, the tank is bad.
: Lethality build has NO real tradeoffs.
The tradeoff is youre forced into a dead build late game. You lack defensive options for the first 3 buys, no AS options to multiply the damage and any potential lifesteal buys,and no crit. Come late game, innate stats and supports just innately remove any advantage your build had earlier. And you *need* to build more than 1 lethality item, as it scales with itself.
JackMcCarry (EUNE)
: > And wow, i didnt know ~50% WR was overperforming. He is slightly out of line, if anything, but hes not egregious. [He's at 53% winrate - that alone](https://u.gg/lol/champions/garen/build), i agree, is not enough to call him OP, but it raises an eyebrow. Then you look at his playrate - 17.4% and rising, that's more than tripple his previous winrate, back then he had only 50-51% winrate. He's not ~50% wr - he's 53.4% winrate - 17.4% pickrate, stop downplaying it. So he's the 2nd highest winrate in the toplane, just falling short behind Quinn, only Quinn has 2% pickrate, that's is a direct results of buffs being too strong, numbers too high, if his kit hasnt changed, playing around him is the same as before, he's just stronger, flat out, stronger. All these stats are plat+ by the way, the ELO where people are claiming he "falls off", if we look at global winrate and pickrate he not only holds the highest winrate in total (54.76% WR) but also 20% pickrate top, that's INSANE, his weaknesses are not strong enough. > Garen is an early game jug. Which means if youre not someone that wins against him early, you give up the notion of farming well and focus on what you can get and surviving. Seriously, top lane 101. Have you watched the video i posted in my last comment?
> [{quoted}](name=JackMcCarry,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wEJQl4Kz,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-13T12:21:55.272+0000) > > [He's at 53% winrate - that alone](https://u.gg/lol/champions/garen/build), i agree, is not enough to call him OP, but it raises an eyebrow. > Then you look at his playrate - 17.4% and rising, that's more than tripple his previous winrate, back then he had only 50-51% winrate. > He's not ~50% wr - he's 53.4% winrate - 17.4% pickrate, stop downplaying it. > > So he's the 2nd highest winrate in the toplane, just falling short behind Quinn, only Quinn has 2% pickrate, that's is a direct results of buffs being too strong, numbers too high, if his kit hasnt changed, playing around him is the same as before, he's just stronger, flat out, stronger. > > All these stats are plat+ by the way, the ELO where people are claiming he "falls off", if we look at global winrate and pickrate he not only holds the highest winrate in total (54.76% WR) but also 20% pickrate top, that's INSANE, his weaknesses are not strong enough. > > Have you watched the video i posted in my last comment? Your video means nothing when we dont even know what items twitch had, gold lead, etc.
JackMcCarry (EUNE)
: > His damage should be irrelevant if you play properly and not let him walk into your face to begin with. You realise that in lane, you need to farm right? you need to get into melee range, Garen WILL get ontop of you, how do you trade with him when the only option is to run away as soon as he runs at you, on a moderetly short CD MS steroid that also silences you? His E stacks conq almost immidietly, making long trades also unfavorable, and his W makes sure that short trades also go in his favor, not even gonna talk about his passive, which was buffed for laning phase when it was most important. Would you also consider Yasuo immobile? i mean, outside of creep wave, his dash is almost melee range, can you apply the same counterplay to him? just dont get in his range EVER. > He is not tanky enough to deal with CC and he doesnt have enough damage to kill someone immediately without reaction. [Garen is plenty tanky to survive CC, you can look at this clip yourself if you'd like, that's a full build twitch by the way, including armor pen and heal reduction, my only defensive item was {{item:3075}} the rest was full crit. ](https://imgur.com/a/0qMY6SU) Garen is over preforming, every stat suggests he is, "dont ever get in his range" is a bullshit excuse to leave him at his state.
> [{quoted}](name=JackMcCarry,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wEJQl4Kz,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-13T10:03:52.644+0000) > > You realise that in lane, you need to farm right? you need to get into melee range, Garen WILL get ontop of you, how do you trade with him when the only option is to run away as soon as he runs at you, on a moderetly short CD MS steroid that also silences you? > His E stacks conq almost immidietly, making long trades also unfavorable, and his W makes sure that short trades also go in his favor, not even gonna talk about his passive, which was buffed for laning phase when it was most important. > > Would you also consider Yasuo immobile? i mean, outside of creep wave, his dash is almost melee range, can you apply the same counterplay to him? just dont get in his range EVER. > > [Garen is plenty tanky to survive CC, you can look at this clip yourself if you'd like, that's a full build twitch by the way, including armor pen and heal reduction, my only defensive item was {{item:3075}} the rest was full crit. ](https://imgur.com/a/0qMY6SU) > > Garen is over preforming, every stat suggests he is, "dont ever get in his range" is a bullshit excuse to leave him at his state. You realize that, in lane, you need to not die, right? If you would take more damage than a health pot is worth compared to the minions you would kill, then you give up that farm. Garen is an early game jug. Which means if youre not someone that wins against him early, you give up the notion of farming well and focus on what you can get and surviving. Seriously, top lane 101. And yes, Yas is immobile outside a creep wave, and even with a creep wave his mobility is predictable. And wow, i didnt know ~50% WR was overperforming. He is slightly out of line, if anything, but hes not egregious.
JackMcCarry (EUNE)
: Riven Q can be dodged. Yasuo's Tornado can be dodged. Garen spin does not exist in a vaccum, Garen spin comes after he's already on you and silenced you, he also gets move speed from his core build path. The problem arent in Garen's kit, it's his numbers, he deals too much damage for how tanky he is, how can you deny he is overtuned while he's rocking the statistics he has is beyond me, saying his counters are the same as before is meaningless, as clearly something BOOSTED his winrate by a big amount, and no, people didnt just become bad in 9.20 for no reason. > garen should kill anything he gets too > > that is what a fukin juggernaut does Nvm just noticed you posted this, lol
> [{quoted}](name=JackMcCarry,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wEJQl4Kz,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T23:53:21.844+0000) > > Riven Q can be dodged. > Yasuo's Tornado can be dodged. > > Garen spin does not exist in a vaccum, Garen spin comes after he's already on you and silenced you, he also gets move speed from his core build path. > The problem arent in Garen's kit, it's his numbers, he deals too much damage for how tanky he is, how can you deny he is overtuned while he's rocking the statistics he has is beyond me, saying his counters are the same as before is meaningless, as clearly something BOOSTED his winrate by a big amount, and no, people didnt just become bad in 9.20 for no reason. > > Nvm just noticed you posted this, lol Thats not an issue with garens numbers. Hes a juggernaut, he is immobile. He needs to be tanky enough to run into someones face with enough damage to kill someone when he gets there. He is not tanky enough to deal with CC and he doesnt have enough damage to kill someone immediately without reaction. His damage should be irrelevant if you play properly and not let him walk into your face to begin with.
: My Darius is the answer to outdamaging him.
> [{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wEJQl4Kz,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T23:42:55.071+0000) > > My Darius is the answer to outdamaging him. But.... Darius is also a juggernaut? Not every top laner is a Darius.
: Or outdamage his damage.
> [{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wEJQl4Kz,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T22:40:54.335+0000) > > Or outdamage his damage. Thats unlikely, hes an early game juggernaut. Outdamaging him AND out tanking him is unlikely.
: Why Is Garen allowed to have so much power??
Or put a minion between you and him.
: This is actually a recent phenomenon, starting back in season 6~ when counterpicks became less of an advantage and more like fucking curb stomping. Regardless, once they end up getting 50 farm up on you they can effortlessly dive you with their substantial gold lead and then the lane is completely over. Yup, sounds like a good concept to me, totally losing top lane 101.
> [{quoted}](name=LatetotheRace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9rkrwI8G,comment-id=00000002000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T18:11:54.859+0000) > > This is actually a recent phenomenon, starting back in season 6~ when counterpicks became less of an advantage and more like fucking curb stomping. Regardless, once they end up getting 50 farm up on you they can effortlessly dive you with their substantial gold lead and then the lane is completely over. Yup, sounds like a good concept to me, totally losing top lane 101. No, it started in season 4ish after they made it so top laners didnt have so much sustain they could just face tank everything and fight for 5 minutes straight and have both back off with 80% HP. Even IF we assume it started in S6, thats still multiple years to learn how to play. You dont have a real excuse.
mSticky (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XXjKi1f,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-12T14:09:18.830+0000) > > As the first person already pointed out; this would just return tank pyke and remove all support play from his kit. How does tank pyke “return” if there’s supposedly no support play in his kit? Do you really think people will play tank pyke mid? But yes a nerfed tank pyke is 10x better than what we have right now. Tank Pyke would sneak up to you, hook you, and kill you with an ally; he’s not soloing your midlaner at 18 minutes with a targon’s and a duskblade. Tank Pyke was reliable and versatile - you could make the big play if you wanted to, but if you wanted to be a conventional support and peel for your carries you could that too. More importantly, it is a lot easier to balance support pyke but cutting his durability and mobility than it is to balance support assassin pyke by making him unplayable in every other possible position and hyper inflating his numbers such that, if he ever is playable anywhere but support, he’s busted.
> [{quoted}](name=mSticky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XXjKi1f,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-10-12T15:23:55.424+0000) > > How does tank pyke “return” if there’s supposedly no support play in his kit? Do you really think people will play tank pyke mid? > > But yes a nerfed tank pyke is 10x better than what we have right now. Tank Pyke would sneak up to you, hook you, and kill you with an ally; he’s not soloing your midlaner at 18 minutes with a targon’s and a duskblade. Tank Pyke was reliable and versatile - you could make the big play if you wanted to, but if you wanted to be a conventional support and peel for your carries you could that too. More importantly, it is a lot easier to balance support pyke but cutting his durability and mobility than it is to balance support assassin pyke by making him unplayable in every other possible position and hyper inflating his numbers such that, if he ever is playable anywhere but support, he’s busted. Current pyke is less capable pf soloing someone than tank pyke ever was. Pyke has 0 damage outside his ult, and is way too squishy with too long CDs to kill 100>0. Hell always die first. Unless hes fed to hell, in which case literally anyone could do the same better.
mSticky (NA)
: Wait, I think I may have balanced Pyke...
As the first person already pointed out; this would just return tank pyke and remove all support play from his kit.
Ilovemobas (EUNE)
: I searched for Yasuo weaknesses but I got an error 404 “not found” message.
His e is predictable as it requires a target, his w can be baited, he loses almost all melee matchups, his ult requires a knockup which is a pain for him to do himself.
: On Riot’s website “Defend human rights around the world from online privacy to gender equality”
Sad part is.... Its less a tencent thing and more of a "we do a shitload of business in china, so upsetting the brainwashed chinese playerbase would be a bad idea as it will hurt business" Still, this is indefensible. Its not riots choice whether or not someone uses their own success on riots platform to speak truth to power. Yes, the issue is "controversial", as most important topics to talk about are. But you know what? Progress and change is worth speaking for to make the world a better place. If you dont want to willingly hand the person making that message the mic to say it, then they will take the mic from you by force.
: Alright just let me not farm anymore, problem solved?
> [{quoted}](name=LatetotheRace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9rkrwI8G,comment-id=000000020001000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-12T03:51:17.766+0000) > > Alright just let me not farm anymore, problem solved? Thats already a thing youre supposed to do... If you need to give up CS to not die, you give up CS. This is top lane 101....
Remus Wins (EUNE)
: Senna Confirmed as the next champion
Senna Thresh bot lane vs into all Lucian picks.
: Season 10: Please nerf ranged top laners for good, it's been enough
Honestly, the only people that complain more than adcs, are melee top players. Which is saying something.
vyoda (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9rkrwI8G,comment-id=000000020001,timestamp=2019-10-11T15:23:26.403+0000) > > Flash the Q then? I mean, its not really that complicated. Hes immobile and has to literally walk into you to kill you.... Cool lemme just waste my 5 minute CD {{summoner:4}} on this guy's 8 second **base CD** basic ability
> [{quoted}](name=vyoda,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9rkrwI8G,comment-id=0000000200010000,timestamp=2019-10-11T17:15:30.284+0000) > > Cool lemme just waste my 5 minute CD {{summoner:4}} on this guy's 8 second **base CD** basic ability If hes getting in range to threaten you with Q every 8 seconds, you need to learn how to position.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mihalikb,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9rkrwI8G,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-11T11:32:30.137+0000) > > Bro. Garen is still incredibly weak and easy to beat. Now even being a lot squishier than before. > > The only things that changed is that you can't just sit in his E for full duration and laugh it off. > > Funny enough he is quite weak early and drops off massively around level 11 to 12 compared to what he could do before. > > It is literally this easy... - DO.NOT.STAND.IN.THE.SPIN. You can't flash the E when silenced. And if he catches you, you're dead. Also, the E procs conquerer almost instantaneously.
> [{quoted}](name=AquariusGine,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9rkrwI8G,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-10-11T12:21:35.359+0000) > > You can't flash the E when silenced. And if he catches you, you're dead. Also, the E procs conquerer almost instantaneously. Flash the Q then? I mean, its not really that complicated. Hes immobile and has to literally walk into you to kill you....
: That's not true at all, warlock literally means oath breaker. Warlocks are people who use the powers of demons and not a witch who uses the power of the natural world. Thus their ties to the autumn month and vegetation, ie: living in the woods, pumpkins, potions made of animal parts and fungus.
> [{quoted}](name=ProExpertKing,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=A8E7rRQv,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-10-10T00:49:12.008+0000) > > That's not true at all, warlock literally means oath breaker. > Warlocks are people who use the powers of demons and not a witch who uses the power of the natural world. Thus their ties to the autumn month and vegetation, ie: living in the woods, pumpkins, potions made of animal parts and fungus. Oh hey, someone that understands their shit getting downvotted. Welcome to the boards. Yes, there are male witches.
: Garen proccing CONQ spins is too much.
It can only proc on the closest target to him; fight him in your minion wave with a minion between you and him.
Destaice (NA)
: The Blizzard incident seems like controversy for the sake of controversy
Yeah, blizzard can get fucked. Its one thing to not allow political discourse, but the hong kong issue is clear cut and one sided; china can get bent, and the hong kong government that tried to sell out its own people can get bent. Standing up for something so clear cut shouldnt be a crime. Him being silenced and them being fired was likely the best gift they could have given people as a signal boost. Rip blizzard, i defended your mobile diablo but now you can get fucked.
Yets4240 (NA)
: What the actual fuck are you on about? Actually look at what people are building, its 99/100 times pure damage, and nothing even ***close*** to a defensive or tanky build. Everyone builds damage, and runs around like chickens with their heads cut off looking to 100-0 instaburst whomever comes in range or is hit by a single CC.
> [{quoted}](name=Yets4240,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0010000000000001,timestamp=2019-10-10T21:49:38.844+0000) > > What the actual fuck are you on about? Actually look at what people are building, its 99/100 times pure damage, and nothing even ***close*** to a defensive or tanky build. Everyone builds damage, and runs around like chickens with their heads cut off looking to 100-0 instaburst whomever comes in range or is hit by a single CC. Yeah, thats not a thing in coordinated play. If youre not an adc or an assassin (and assassins arent in even 50% of games), you cannot afford to build more than one pure offensive item. You do 0DPS if youre dead, and theres enough CC where even if youre ahead, youll die instantly if youre caught out with no defenses.
Cdore (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2019-10-10T20:32:39.825+0000) > > Theyee only strong in disorganized play. Theyre really not that strong overall. Just hit them with a CC and theyll fall in short order, because while theyre durable, theyre not *that* durable. > > Juggernauts are the more durable versions, but they lack sticking power and engage power. Juggernauts are still just as much of a problem simply cause of their synergy with the top runes and items. Sion is the most balanced one, skarner is the weakest one, and Nasus is the wildcard one. I call juggernauts fighters with a tending toward damage, but items like Phage and ghost make sticking to enemies a lot easier. For instance, try getting away from a Darius who W's you, which slows you, then activates ghost, and has phage. If your flash isn't up or he has flash up, you're dead.
> [{quoted}](name=Cdore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0010000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-10T20:35:40.483+0000) > > Juggernauts are still just as much of a problem simply cause of their synergy with the top runes and items. Sion is the most balanced one, skarner is the weakest one, and Nasus is the wildcard one. I call juggernauts fighters with a tending toward damage, but items like Phage and ghost make sticking to enemies a lot easier. For instance, try getting away from a Darius who W's you, which slows you, then activates ghost, and has phage. If your flash isn't up or he has flash up, you're dead. Ok, try being a darius and trying to get in range to do literally any of that. Youre dead. Thats literally the point. Theyre immobile.
Cdore (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-10-10T20:24:18.857+0000) > > Its because bruisers lack staying power, and its either give them more durability, or allow them to do more to the targets they have the easiest access to. > > Giving them more durability treads on the tanks job. Giving them more damage later into a fight against tankier opponents is generally fine. > > Also, the ADCs job isnt necessarily to kill tanks, its primarily to kill objectives. From a game design standpoint, bruisers should always be the weaker class. Their design alone is based on getting the fun now before the game reaches its apex. If you want a strong bruiser design in a game, you have to have an equal "anti killing" force, such as strong healing options and shielding options to combat bruisers. This way bruisers can still do big damage plays like they want, but also cant just delete someone by flashing, stun, aoe damage in a teamfight like Jax or Riven like to do, one of the biggest offenders. They're strong right now because it's good for business, not for because the game asks it so. If any of the designers at Riot wanted to balance it right now, they would keep tanks as the defacto bodyguards and conqueror wouldn't exist. Tank items would also be buffed right now. There's many ways to curve this, but atm bruisers absolutely dominate over tanks in every way.
> [{quoted}](name=Cdore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2019-10-10T20:28:23.339+0000) > > From a game design standpoint, bruisers should always be the weaker class. Their design alone is based on getting the fun now before the game reaches its apex. If you want a strong bruiser design in a game, you have to have an equal "anti killing" force, such as strong healing options and shielding options to combat bruisers. This way bruisers can still do big damage plays like they want, but also cant just delete someone by flashing, stun, aoe damage in a teamfight like Jax or Riven like to do, one of the biggest offenders. > > They're strong right now because it's good for business, not for because the game asks it so. If any of the designers at Riot wanted to balance it right now, they would keep tanks as the defacto bodyguards and conqueror wouldn't exist. Tank items would also be buffed right now. There's many ways to curve this, but atm bruisers absolutely dominate over tanks in every way. Theyee only strong in disorganized play. Theyre really not that strong overall. Just hit them with a CC and theyll fall in short order, because while theyre durable, theyre not *that* durable. Juggernauts are the more durable versions, but they lack sticking power and engage power. Tank items dont need buffs, if anything most need nerfs. Theyre by far the better options. Damage is bad in LoL, which is why almost everyone builds tanky and has one single archtype designed to kill objectives.
Cdore (NA)
: What I don't understand about conqueror...
Its because bruisers lack staying power, and its either give them more durability, or allow them to do more to the targets they have the easiest access to. Giving them more durability treads on the tanks job. Giving them more damage later into a fight against tankier opponents is generally fine. Also, the ADCs job isnt necessarily to kill tanks, its primarily to kill objectives.
: AD assassins also counter tanks by abusing {{item:3071}} .
> [{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-10T14:59:46.709+0000) > > AD assassins also counter tanks by abusing {{item:3071}} . Yeah, no. Doesnt matter how much ar shred an assassin gets, they are burst damage. They will NEVER be able to counter anything remotely tanky as a result.
: Hot take: Triumph is one of the biggest factors to the snowballing problem in League
: Deal with leveling AI accounts in bots @RiotGames
They do get handled already. They cant be handled on detection else youll give them information on how you detect them.
: It only makes perfect sense to someone who has no understanding of contract law at all. And since you don't have 1 shred of proof to back up anything you said I'm going to just assume it's complete fiction like everything else you've claimed that never actually occurred.
> [{quoted}](name=p3tm4ster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P5tM31yn,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-07T23:41:12.819+0000) > > It only makes perfect sense to someone who has no understanding of contract law at all. And since you don't have 1 shred of proof to back up anything you said I'm going to just assume it's complete fiction like everything else you've claimed that never actually occurred. It was literally announced on merger. Stop spreading bullshit conspiracy theories.
: Except that Provisionals put you artificially high and then you fall like a rock, and there are tens of thousands of these accounts made daily..... but hey..... otherwise.... sure.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P5tM31yn,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-08T00:05:05.495+0000) > > Except that Provisionals put you artificially high and then you fall like a rock, and there are tens of thousands of these accounts made daily..... but hey..... otherwise.... sure. Not really how that works. Unless you want a diamond smurf stuck in silver for 40+ games. Your first 10 games alter mmr at a higher rate because it makes the system more accurate, not less.
: That makes 0 sense monetarily, if they wanted to be hands off they could have very easily purchased a much smaller share of the company. There's absolutely no reason to get 100% of any company without control provisions. Because at that point you're just wasting money since you won't be involved in the day to day. They could have done the same thing they did with Blizzard and only purchased 5% which would have been a much smarter move. And I just read everything I could find on the acquisition of riot games and Tencent and Riot never disclosed their full terms so I don't know what you're basing your infomation on because nowhere does it say that Tencent agreed to give up control.
> [{quoted}](name=p3tm4ster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P5tM31yn,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-07T23:02:32.153+0000) > > That makes 0 sense monetarily, if they wanted to be hands off they could have very easily purchased a much smaller share of the company. There's absolutely no reason to get 100% of any company without control provisions. Because at that point you're just wasting money since you won't be involved in the day to day. They could have done the same thing they did with Blizzard and only purchased 5% which would have been a much smarter move. > > And I just read everything I could find on the acquisition of riot games and Tencent and Riot never disclosed their full terms so I don't know what you're basing your infomation on because nowhere does it say that Tencent agreed to give up control. Again, they gained full rights for china only, a country where riot wouldnt have been able to do anything in themselves anyway, and passive income. It makes perfect sense.
: You have some proof? Because I'm definitely not taking your word on it. And no company would ever relinquish control that's the reason why people buy 100% of another company. Is specifically so they would have direct control over it.
> [{quoted}](name=p3tm4ster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P5tM31yn,comment-id=000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-07T22:54:43.546+0000) > > You have some proof? Because I'm definitely not taking your word on it. And no company would ever relinquish control that's the reason why people buy 100% of another company. Is specifically so they would have direct control over it. It was stated in the original post detailing the acquisition. Tencent isnt a company that wants to take manual control over anything, all they care about is chinese monetization rights and passive income. Direct control costs too much money for it to be worth it for them, given all the other companies they own. Theyre hands off outside china.
: You're 100% wrong on this, Tencent has full control over every aspect of how riot operates, and they always will, because they have all of that company, not some of it.
> [{quoted}](name=p3tm4ster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P5tM31yn,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-07T20:27:52.946+0000) > > You're 100% wrong on this, Tencent has full control over every aspect of how riot operates, and they always will, because they have all of that company, not some of it. False, as tencent was forced to relinquish all their direct control in a contract before they were allowed to buy the shares. Before you speak, make sure you know what youre talking about.
: Or they were in Provisionals and won their first 3 games, giving them an artificially high Provisional MMR. Which is exactly what happened (he was duoing Neeko)
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P5tM31yn,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2019-10-07T20:58:48.586+0000) > > Or they were in Provisionals and won their first 3 games, giving them an artificially high Provisional MMR. Which is exactly what happened (he was duoing Neeko) Again, they had high MMR. I dont see the issue, system is working as intended.
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