: It's getting harder to be a support
I've been playing support since the beginning of this game and my actual role in the game has kept decreasing more and more. Where ADC have been getting all the spotlight and amazing kits (lucian, vayne), I feel like whatever I do, I'm not gonna do a real impact. Some friend told me about the 30/30/40 rule. You lose and win 30 % of your games because of others and nothing you do will change that. 40 % is determined by your skill level. IN THEORY. As a support, the real numbers are more like 40/40/20. Let's be real. Carries can carry. And they can make others carry too, by keeping them safe by example. But supports CANNOT carry. They can only hopefully make others carry. That's why supports are getting meaningless with every swissknife champions Riot releases to line their pockets.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hi im Bn3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ycc7eIiw,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T03:41:25.757+0000) > > There isn't a reason to only main and play one role. Grow up and learn how to play something else. I promise it's fun Stop brown nosing Riot, it won't get you anywhere, it's also his opinion and he IS entitled to his opinion.
> [{quoted}](name=iKaneki iKen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ycc7eIiw,comment-id=00040001000000000004,timestamp=2016-01-15T15:04:07.112+0000) > > Stop brown nosing Riot, it won't get you anywhere, it's also his opinion and he IS entitled to his opinion. It's not even the issue. I haven't seen a single casual complain that he "can't play 2 roles because he doesn't know how to play 2 roles" NOT ONCE. People play all roles, but it seems unfathomable you might not want to play more than 1 at this precise moment in history.
: > [{quoted}](name=Raiku Kawisa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gho8Pn0A,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2016-01-15T06:31:28.224+0000) > > Yup, because there is now a 50-50 chance that I'm going to be playing with a hanicap every single game now, I'm a jungle main. I spead all of my time in the jungle. Wasn't an issue before, but now im fucked. Is this actually a problem,or do you just think it will be? Cause depending on how the new system is implemented,if it's a role you had no issue getting constantly before,that might remain that way. Naturally I can't tell since this system isn't up here.
> [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gho8Pn0A,comment-id=001a0001,timestamp=2016-01-15T14:27:56.179+0000) > > Is this actually a problem,or do you just think it will be? > Cause depending on how the new system is implemented,if it's a role you had no issue getting constantly before,that might remain that way. > > Naturally I can't tell since this system isn't up here. With TB, he had no issues. This is different now.
Gixia (NA)
: Speaking as a casual player myself, I have no sympathy for fellow casuals. I'm lucky if I get to play at all in any given week, so don't throw the 'I have limited time and a busy day' card at me cause I'll throw it right back. If you have limited time, you don't play a game that will issue punishments for having to leave because you didn't think the game would take an hour. And you certainly don't play teambuilder with its queue times that are longer than the queue and pick/ban phase for ranked combined. While LoL CAN be played casually, it is not actually intended as a casual-friendly game. That's why you can be punished for dropping out of a 40+ minute game even though real life may need to take precedence. As a casual player playing a non-casual game, I acknowledge that sometimes the game isn't going to match up with my desires and I accept that sometimes this means I'm required to do things I'd prefer not to if I still want to play it anyways. This can mean having to choose between delaying something RL or accepting the dodge penalty, or it can mean having to play ADC when I'm really really fucking awful at it. LoL is not a 'solo queue' game. You can solo queue, but even when you do, it's still a team game, not a solo one.
> [{quoted}](name=Gixia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0010000000000001000100010000000200000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T14:07:01.752+0000) > > Speaking as a casual player myself, I have no sympathy for fellow casuals. I'm lucky if I get to play at all in any given week, so don't throw the 'I have limited time and a busy day' card at me cause I'll throw it right back. If you have limited time, you don't play a game that will issue punishments for having to leave because you didn't think the game would take an hour. And you certainly don't play teambuilder with its queue times that are longer than the queue and pick/ban phase for ranked combined. > > While LoL CAN be played casually, it is not actually intended as a casual-friendly game. That's why you can be punished for dropping out of a 40+ minute game even though real life may need to take precedence. As a casual player playing a non-casual game, I acknowledge that sometimes the game isn't going to match up with my desires and I accept that sometimes this means I'm required to do things I'd prefer not to if I still want to play it anyways. This can mean having to choose between delaying something RL or accepting the dodge penalty, or it can mean having to play ADC when I'm really really fucking awful at it. > > LoL is not a 'solo queue' game. You can solo queue, but even when you do, it's still a team game, not a solo one. Well no. I'm the living proof of that. You have the total right and freedom of considering your own situation and game time, but do not force it into me or other casuals. I do have more play time than you, it does not make me remotely competitive. My playtime is enough to play exclusively TB, as shocking as that might be. I must be a special snowflake once again, my queues were <5 mins in most cases. I can understand people forgetting to account for the pick/ban phase time. My games last the same time as everyone else. I do not leave because of game time. I never said that. I never will. I do not expect the game to give me everything I want when I want, otherwise I would not have played thousands of blind picks. I do expect the game to have more and more features, not less. And we lost features yesterday. And that's where the line ends. LoL is a teamgame, you have that right. But I'm still the only one in the gaming chair, and my gaming only benefits me. Selfish right ? Well forcing me to play your mode to boost your queue times isn't that far off that to me. I respect your opinion but put yourself in my shoes too.
: League is as Casual as it gets with HoTS as the main exception. You could complain about ARAM giving you shitty champions if you liked and noone would blink an eye because it forces you to l2p. Btw if people would pick one role then the queue times would stretch to hell again. And i don't care. Overly casuals' comfort over others' time is a fair trade. L2p!
> [{quoted}](name=LightTrack,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=002b00000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T13:57:42.962+0000) > > League is as Casual as it gets with HoTS as the main exception. You could complain about ARAM giving you shitty champions if you liked and noone would blink an eye because it forces you to l2p. > > Btw if people would pick one role then the queue times would stretch to hell again. And i don't care. Overly casuals' comfort over others' time is a fair trade. L2p! I'll take your message seriously even though it clearly isn't. "Other" (Even though we are all players and the same...) won't gain much time from casuals who only played TB, or only a fraction of it. If I don't like the mode, I won't play it. That's all about it. How you gain anything from that confuses me. By the way, people picked one role in Tb, and it worked. Hell, they picked ONE champion too, and it still worked. Not flawlessly, true. But the new mode is hardly perfect as well...
Gixia (NA)
: If you want to discuss that, here's where the discussion begins and ends. Team builder was never intended to be a permanent queue, they said as much when they first introduced it. The idea was that Team Builder would one day replace both Ranked and Blind Pick, but that because TB was such a drastic change and required more testing to make sure it would be a suitable replacement, they split it off into its own queue as essentially a very prolonged beta. During that time, a number of flaws with TB became very apparent, flaws which made it unsuitable to becoming a permanent replacement for blind pick and ranked. They took feedback and the results from their own observations, went back to the drawing board, and came up with new champ select as a result. Since new champ select will now fulfill the role that Team Builder was originally intended to fill, Team Builder's purpose has been stripped away and thus it's being removed, just like so many items and old champion kits that came before. If you don't like to play Ranked, well then Blind Pick is still a thing. If you really insist on always getting your preferred role 100% of the time, well... too bad. Life doesn't work that way, and neither do team games. Suck it up and learn something new, or just play with friends.
> [{quoted}](name=Gixia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=00100000000000010001000100000002,timestamp=2016-01-15T13:07:41.270+0000) > > If you want to discuss that, here's where the discussion begins and ends. Team builder was never intended to be a permanent queue, they said as much when they first introduced it. The idea was that Team Builder would one day replace both Ranked and Blind Pick, but that because TB was such a drastic change and required more testing to make sure it would be a suitable replacement, they split it off into its own queue as essentially a very prolonged beta. During that time, a number of flaws with TB became very apparent, flaws which made it unsuitable to becoming a permanent replacement for blind pick and ranked. They took feedback and the results from their own observations, went back to the drawing board, and came up with new champ select as a result. Since new champ select will now fulfill the role that Team Builder was originally intended to fill, Team Builder's purpose has been stripped away and thus it's being removed, just like so many items and old champion kits that came before. > > If you don't like to play Ranked, well then Blind Pick is still a thing. If you really insist on always getting your preferred role 100% of the time, well... too bad. Life doesn't work that way, and neither do team games. Suck it up and learn something new, or just play with friends. You were absolutely right until your very last line. Then you fell into the L2P pit trap and the non casual trap. Both are incredibly true. Both are incredibly not in play here. I've explained this at least 5 times already, here we go again. I know how to play all the roles, but I dont necessarily want to play them. Im a casual with limited time and a busy day. I do not have the luxury of setting up games with friends, nor should I be, once again, forced to in a solo queue game. Please don't put this on "life". It's an easy thing to say when you aren't on the wrong side of the stick.
lolptwo (NA)
: Maybe Riot is giving you a hint, If you don't know how to play more than 1 role. You don't belong in ranked. Either keep dodging or learn a second role. Your choice
> [{quoted}](name=AegonTheDragon7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=00410000,timestamp=2016-01-15T11:08:06.097+0000) > > Maybe Riot is giving you a hint, If you don't know how to play more than 1 role. You don't belong in ranked. Either keep dodging or learn a second role. Your choice Read. For hell sake, read. I dont play ranked. Never stated I belonged in there. Never said I could only play 1 role. In fact I notice it is 2 of the most popular arguments to the idea, but both are none and just hidden insults. Do we need that to discuss ? We don't. Do you need to drive me down to feel better about yourself as a player ?
Serika Zero (EUNE)
: Draft is not ranked, you don't have to counter pick............ You just happen to know what the enemy team is before you start the game + 6 champions out of 128 are not allowed to be played big deal...... there's 122 left And team builder takes WAY LONGER, than draft. ESPECIALLY if you don't play meta picks.
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001900000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T11:17:13.476+0000) > > Draft is not ranked, you don't have to counter pick............ > You just happen to know what the enemy team is before you start the game + 6 champions out of 128 are not allowed to be played big deal...... there's 122 left > > And team builder takes WAY LONGER, than draft. ESPECIALLY if you don't play meta picks. You might be right since I dont play ranked. But I thought draft and ranked process were very similar. And somehow I think people take it as least serious enough to counterpick. The 122/126 was never called an issue in this thread. Its the whole concept of ut that bothers me. I dont need bans at all in my games, nor counterpicks in truth. They are a waste of time to me, I just want to get on with it and play whoever people want to because I know they will have fun. Well they did with teambuilder.
lolptwo (NA)
: Holy shit this new generation has absolutely no patience whatsoever. It's fucking an extra 2 mins. Deal with it. You kids are literally sitting here acting like you're days are so busy that the difference of waiting an extra 5mins will fucking mean the end of League to you. Bullshit. You have to prepare at least a 30-1 hr window to even play League. It's not the end of the world if you impatient people have to wait an extra 5mins. Jesus christ I couldn't imagine half of this generation in the days where it would of taken League 1 hour to even start up
> [{quoted}](name=AegonTheDragon7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0042,timestamp=2016-01-15T11:06:54.881+0000) > > Holy shit this new generation has absolutely no patience whatsoever. It's fucking an extra 2 mins. Deal with it. You kids are literally sitting here acting like you're days are so busy that the difference of waiting an extra 5mins will fucking mean the end of League to you. > > Bullshit. You have to prepare at least a 30-1 hr window to even play League. It's not the end of the world if you impatient people have to wait an extra 5mins. > > Jesus christ I couldn't imagine half of this generation in the days where it would of taken League 1 hour to even start up Not to be rude mate, but Im thinking you wrote this to feel extra special. Im, like many casuals, over 20 with a steady job and family, and have played since season 1. Stop your delusion and read. Then you would see I usually played a couple of games a day, that's certainly more than an hour. My gripe with the system is that I do not need to spend 5+ mins to set up a game when I have not in the past with Tb. Its nothing you say ? Well it is when the chances pf people dodging are multipled, that you are forced to do stuff you dont want (pick and ban in a normal...) and finally that well, I didnt have to do any of that and now I do. And Riot calls it improvement... Stop trying to pretend you are extra cool and veteran vs "this generation". Im asking nothing more then we already had a day ago.
: Can we keep TeamBuilder too please?
In every single thread about this, there are some platinum warriors with the Git Gud argument. It never occured to them casuals might play all roles but not feel like playing more than one on that one, specific day. To deal in absolutes is the way of the dark side , right
: Or, why don't people stop bitching? Seriously, it isn't that hard to learn a role, and you are a sion main, queue up for Top and Jungle. If he gets banned, dodge. It really isn't that difficult. inb4 "teambuilder wouldnt force me to dodge"
> [{quoted}](name=trofter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gho8Pn0A,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-01-15T02:24:26.399+0000) > > Or, why don't people stop bitching? Seriously, it isn't that hard to learn a role, and you are a sion main, queue up for Top and Jungle. If he gets banned, dodge. It really isn't that difficult. > > > inb4 "teambuilder wouldnt force me to dodge" Do people enjoy dodge ? Enjoy being put back into the queue and do the whole pick/ban process again ? Do tell me this...
: [They're making TeamBuilder 2.0... "soon"...](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/y1VttssE-teambuilder-was-the-best-thing?comment=0010)
> [{quoted}](name=Guntermench,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gho8Pn0A,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-01-15T01:31:41.397+0000) > > [They're making TeamBuilder 2.0... "soon"...](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/y1VttssE-teambuilder-was-the-best-thing?comment=0010) It is anything but that... Its a blind pick with mirror matching. It gives no insurance on what you will play. Its more like a Blind 2.0
3Power (NA)
: Are you aware, that the outrage present in this thread, the blog posts, and elsewhere, is about how this system is touted as a superior replacement to_ team builder?_ Because we absolutely WERE guaranteed our "one" in Team Builder. And yet, you're saying it's better than the old draft, which isn't the issue at all. I am very happy about how ranked will probably suck less for people who play it. Good for them. But it is an _inferior_ replacement for Team Builder.
> [{quoted}](name=3Power,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001000030000000f00000004,timestamp=2016-01-15T04:18:48.456+0000) > > Are you aware, that the outrage present in this thread, the blog posts, and elsewhere, is about how this system is touted as a superior replacement to_ team builder?_ > > Because we absolutely WERE guaranteed our "one" in Team Builder. > > And yet, you're saying it's better than the old draft, which isn't the issue at all. I am very happy about how ranked will probably suck less for people who play it. Good for them. > > But it is an _inferior_ replacement for Team Builder. It's been the point all along... But you only need to see how your posts in the other thread are all downvoted to see the opinion is not shared by the majority. I've no intention of hiding we are a minority, it is a fact. I think it is EVIDENT that merging tb with draft has made the game LOSE features for us, the minority. Unfortunately, since we are that minority, Riot might consider us expendable, sadly. I would never give bad intentions to Riot as a company ( in opposition to what others might have said ) but they are strong with numbers and statistics. If they have determined that most players play 2 roles, and that those players are the ones who are , in general, most profitable, then maybe we are an "acceptable" loss. I'm talking about the players who just won't play the game now or much much less. Before I see anyone calling hippy boycutting, it is not, just as it was NEVER about us not capable to play more than one role, it's a matter of choice and preference. I will give many tries to the system but I'm already quite sure it is not for me. Going back to the hassles of blind picks seems a chore now. I'll probably stick to ARAM and Coop right now. Like I said, I would never try to force a role into other's games. But others will, sadly
: Not entirely; we accepted general feedback! The lock-in feature was a really good example of this; lots of players found it *confusing* (lots of queue dodges due to locking in fails) but otherwise *much preferred*. This helped us make sure it was as apparent as possible with both the pop-up you receive the first time you log in and the first time you try the new champ select. That being said, a lot of our PBE time was dedicated to fixing a critical bug that caused as much as 10% of our testing players to not be able to make it through champ select :P That kind of stuff you don't want to test on live servers. General feedback, everywhere, yes please. Critical bugs, no.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot SlumberJack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001000000000000100010001,timestamp=2016-01-15T03:21:38.240+0000) > > Not entirely; we accepted general feedback! The lock-in feature was a really good example of this; lots of players found it *confusing* (lots of queue dodges due to locking in fails) but otherwise *much preferred*. This helped us make sure it was as apparent as possible with both the pop-up you receive the first time you log in and the first time you try the new champ select. > > That being said, a lot of our PBE time was dedicated to fixing a critical bug that caused as much as 10% of our testing players to not be able to make it through champ select :P That kind of stuff you don't want to test on live servers. > > General feedback, everywhere, yes please. Critical bugs, no. But... This is not the point of my thread. It never was. Im sure the new mode is well done or will be..for its intented customers.... RANKED. Its about the way we are forced into the new mode to boost a queue. Forced to play things we may not want to. Its simple really. Draft is not tb and it cannot emulate tb as it is. It is a problem. Can we discuss that ?
: "Team Builder was the best thi..." Ok, SILENCE! The main problem was the queue times and that had to be fixed. I would rather wait 30 seconds - 1 minute than be scared of a 10 minute queue time PLUS the time i'd wait for people to fill in the gaps and find a match-(which actually was fast). The alternative here is that people pick 2 roles. If you play in a competitive environment then you have to know 2 or preferrably more roles and how to play them. They are forcing you to play more roles not out of your role as you get your main role most of the time anyway.
> [{quoted}](name=LightTrack,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=002b,timestamp=2016-01-15T01:40:03.157+0000) > > "Team Builder was the best thi..." > > Ok, SILENCE! The main problem was the queue times and that had to be fixed. I would rather wait 30 seconds - 1 minute than be scared of a 10 minute queue time PLUS the time i'd wait for people to fill in the gaps and find a match-(which actually was fast). > > The alternative here is that people pick 2 roles. If you play in a competitive environment then you have to know 2 or preferrably more roles and how to play them. They are forcing you to play more roles not out of your role as you get your main role most of the time anyway. True. But there is a major difference between what I KNOW how to play and what I WANT to play. Many are assuming there is no difference when it is indeed MAJOR. I can play all roles, but right now, at this moment, I want to play say jungle karma. Im a balanced person. I would never say force the role or troll in draft because I cant have what I want. But others do. Hence tb. Please stop asking me to L2P. It has nothing , nothing to do with the issue. And competive ? Im casual. Truly purely casual.
Alphadef (NA)
: So then why remove teambuilder? Why not leave for the people who like it? Instead of you know, removing it so that the people that did play it now have to go play other queues....
> [{quoted}](name=Alphadef,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001000000000000000010002,timestamp=2016-01-15T01:37:15.422+0000) > > So then why remove teambuilder? Why not leave for the people who like it? Instead of you know, removing it so that the people that did play it now have to go play other queues.... The argument is that they can boost other queues so mm times are lower. But that's about it really.
: You don't have to play ranked draft, you can play normals draft as well................. But if you feel like you're being forced into it then I don't have anything I can say, if you don't want to play other normal modes.
> [{quoted}](name=Sir Dreemurr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=00260000,timestamp=2016-01-15T01:32:39.640+0000) > > You don't have to play ranked draft, you can play normals draft as well................. > But if you feel like you're being forced into it then I don't have anything I can say, if you don't want to play other normal modes. At the core, it was a and b and b doest exist anymore. I get it , if I dont want to play a then Im screwed. What Im arguing about is not the value of a but rather why a and b cant live together or why a couldnt have some of b. Without making anylne suffer. This is the ultimate goal.
: Immediately invalidating an opinion with popularity as a bad answer doesn't do much to help either.
> [{quoted}](name=naagza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T01:06:19.499+0000) > > Immediately invalidating an opinion with popularity as a bad answer doesn't do much to help either. Absolutely true. The problem is that starting a debate over the value of popularity would derail the thread.
: Well, you're right. No one is forcing you to play the game. Now don't get me wrong, I would rather that we keep team builder myself. But, at the same time you're making some pretty silly arguments. You are not being forced to play ranked at all. You could just play normal's and call your position, and not worry about bans. But if you just can't handle playing more then 1 role every once in a while, then stop playing League until riot decides to put TB back in okay?
> [{quoted}](name=G1Radiobot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:53:07.481+0000) > > Well, you're right. No one is forcing you to play the game. Now don't get me wrong, I would rather that we keep team builder myself. But, at the same time you're making some pretty silly arguments. You are not being forced to play ranked at all. You could just play normal's and call your position, and not worry about bans. But if you just can't handle playing more then 1 role every once in a while, then stop playing League until riot decides to put TB back in okay? And I did. Tb is still a relatively new thing. Ive played normal since s1, more than 1000 games. I called stuff. And you know what. VERY mixed experience. I can reliably say that 20-30 % went heavily haywired. Whether it was trolling, feeding, or someone forcing a role. This did not happen in tb more than 1-2 games out of 200. All alone , this deserves me defending the mode.
3Power (NA)
: Oh this is rich. Explain how the league majority was suffering by leaving TB intact.
> [{quoted}](name=3Power,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001e000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:49:14.470+0000) > > Oh this is rich. > Explain how the league majority was suffering by leaving TB intact. He probably means the long queue times. Which is not false by any means. But it also implies he doesnt mind forcing tb players to play draft.
: You must be a support main
> [{quoted}](name=Bladerunner7777,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0024,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:41:14.688+0000) > > You must be a support main Im not ! I play mid and top , the most popular choices in tb. I must be a special snowflake, my queues are less than 5mins.
: > [{quoted}](name=PoeticDreams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001e0000,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:07:18.623+0000) > > Im the total opposite of hardcore. I play few roles because I have no time nor interest to play others. And Tb made everyone who got into a game satisfied, trust me. Telling me riot doesnt need x or x person is totally silly , same as saying I should play something else. This is a age old debate that has no answer. Its not the issue at hand. It simply is not. As a bell curve casuals and extreme asshats are the outliers, the minority. In leauge majority shouldnt suffer so that the minority can always play what they want period. If you have no time or interest to adapt, then don't its as simple as that. Whether or not riot should accommodate you is the issue, and I have already shared my feelings on the subject.
> [{quoted}](name=Sincarnation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001e00000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:33:24.003+0000) > > As a bell curve casuals and extreme asshats are the outliers, the minority. In leauge majority shouldnt suffer so that the minority can always play what they want period. > > If you have no time or interest to adapt, then don't its as simple as that. > Whether or not riot should accommodate you is the issue, and I have already shared my feelings on the subject. You are right. But... Suffer ? I do not think I make anyone suffer. I do not troll, I do not feed. I never rage and Im always posotive in game. Havent left more than 2 games since season 1. Does TB make people suffer because of long queue times ? Perhaps. Would Tb along with the new mode make people suffer ? Im a minority , not an extremist. And you might be surprised how many people like TB. Now, how does forcing players to play non-tb look ? There is no difference between what you want and what I want, a good compromise. Or so I hope... Put yourself in my shoes. I can easily put myself in yours. I used to play much more in the first seasons. Then life happened.
: I don't think we're really forcing anyone to play roles; players get to pick their two favourite roles (or fill), and we do our best to give them their first pick. We do 2 options because, well, sometimes two people want to play the same thing and rather than have it break out into an argument *during* champ select (which sets the tone for the rest of game), it's settled before even going in. Also remember we're allowing the option to play with more friends, so having people play with you who are bought into unconventional comp experience is also an option. Off-meta, ahoy! We'll keep monitoring how the champ select process is actually playing out for draft mode, and if there's anything that looks concerning we'll look into it.
> [{quoted}](name=Slumber Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001000030000,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:20:31.122+0000) > > I don't think we're really forcing anyone to play roles; players get to pick their two favourite roles (or fill), and we do our best to give them their first pick. We do 2 options because, well, sometimes two people want to play the same thing and rather than have it break out into an argument *during* champ select (which sets the tone for the rest of game), it's settled before even going in. > > Also remember we're allowing the option to play with more friends, so having people play with you who are bought into unconventional comp experience is also an option. Off-meta, ahoy! > > We'll keep monitoring how the champ select process is actually playing out for draft mode, and if there's anything that looks concerning we'll look into it. What I get from this is that the 2 role thing is because of queue times. That's all. As of arguments, well Im not sure if anything will change. Dodging in normal has no consequences. Nothing that explains why I could not choose 1 or 2 roles. At this point , that change alone would be good.
: Just because you're part of the few that don't like the change, doesn't mean that that was a poor answer.
> [{quoted}](name=naagza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0010000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:12:52.277+0000) > > Just because you're part of the few that don't like the change, doesn't mean that that was a poor answer. I dont know if few or many, honestly. True, most people may like the update. But it doesnt invalidate my opinion. Answering to an opinion with popularity is a bad answer to me , and it does little to help the issue to progress.
: No, learn another role. Don't want to? Don't play. League doesn't need players that only want to play one role and refuse to do anything else. Learn and cooperate with the team need, or find something else to occupy your time. Riot should not make everyone else suffer with longer Q times because casuals or hardcore asshats want to play only one role.
> [{quoted}](name=Sincarnation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:00:26.089+0000) > > No, learn another role. Don't want to? Don't play. League doesn't need players that only want to play one role and refuse to do anything else. Learn and cooperate with the team need, or find something else to occupy your time. > > Riot should not make everyone else suffer with longer Q times because casuals or hardcore asshats want to play only one role. Im the total opposite of hardcore. I play few roles because I have no time nor interest to play others. And Tb made everyone who got into a game satisfied, trust me. Telling me riot doesnt need x or x person is totally silly , same as saying I should play something else. This is a age old debate that has no answer. Its not the issue at hand. It simply is not.
Serika Zero (EUNE)
: Pro tip: play draft until they put blind pick with role selection (you don't have to rank)
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2016-01-14T23:48:57.014+0000) > > Pro tip: > play draft until they put blind pick with role selection (you don't have to rank) This is no answer to the issue at hand. I have explained that I, as many casual, do not have time or patience for ranked. It takes too long for no reason ! I dont care for bans. I care little for counter picks. If I have to face teemo as tryndamere, well I will and enjoy the challenge. People thinking they are witty because they countered a pick confuse me. Thats just who I am
: He's champion will not get randomly banned unless he only plays broken champions...
> [{quoted}](name=Jorencice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=00070001000000010000,timestamp=2016-01-14T23:55:18.164+0000) > > He's champion will not get randomly banned unless he only plays broken champions... It's not about my champion getting banned or not. I just DONT care for bans. I dont need bans. Play who you want. If you want to play the most broken champ, go ahead. Play him and have fun and I will too. Thats what tb allowed. Everyone playong what they want where they want. I NEVER saw anyone in tb trying to force a role or a champion. Very little salt compared to ranked or blind.
: > Haveing bans is always a plus. Not for OP. He just wants to play who he wants to play, where he wants to play it. People can ban away his champ now. I agree, it's much better in the long run and most people will benefit, etc. etc. But OP has a point. There is a portion of the player base who only played Team Builder Classic, and there's no denying that they got shafted by this change.
> [{quoted}](name=OneSmoothDude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0007000100000001,timestamp=2016-01-14T23:51:46.180+0000) > > Not for OP. He just wants to play who he wants to play, where he wants to play it. People can ban away his champ now. > > I agree, it's much better in the long run and most people will benefit, etc. etc. > But OP has a point. There is a portion of the player base who only played Team Builder Classic, and there's no denying that they got shafted by this change. This sums up my point completely. Thank you.
: >Riot again(again) trying to force ranked down people's throat, and force us to play roles/champions we don't want to play. ...no??? >What people also dont get is that ranked bans and pick selection will make the game preparation much slower, a couple of minutes. Team Builder still took a couple of minutes to find people (unless you solo queued and was the last role needed to be filled on a team). I found (especially in the last few months before Team Builder was retired) that every role was hard to find. "Top lane Fighter", "Mid lane Mage", "Jungle Any Role", "Bottom Lane Marksman", would often take a few minutes to find those. It was rare to have any candidates (much more rare for an ideal pick that isn't somehow troll...) for those roles to pop up within 10-20 seconds of starting to search. >I don't play ranked, it never interested me. I don't need the stress. I only play casually Normal Blind Pick is still available. You are not forced to use the new DRAFT pick Champion Select. You're not being forced to play Ranked. >I don't feel "filling" and I shouldn't be forced to. Then don't? You really aren't being forced to. >During queue times I can fix food, do work, pushups, whatever. During picks/ban, I have to stare mindlessly. You can still do those things during the queue. The only thing I would suggest as improvement to the system is to have a loud, distinct sound play when it's your turn to ban/lock in your champion. On another note... I'm sure Riot is going to implement a "new Champion Select" without bans, so it's going to be "pick 2 roles, get matched with a team where everyone gets their role, then choose champion without ban phase".
> [{quoted}](name=Lordnewb,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2016-01-14T23:07:05.872+0000) > > ...no??? > > Team Builder still took a couple of minutes to find people (unless you solo queued and was the last role needed to be filled on a team). I found (especially in the last few months before Team Builder was retired) that every role was hard to find. "Top lane Fighter", "Mid lane Mage", "Jungle Any Role", "Bottom Lane Marksman", would often take a few minutes to find those. It was rare to have any candidates (much more rare for an ideal pick that isn't somehow troll...) for those roles to pop up within 10-20 seconds of starting to search. > > Normal Blind Pick is still available. > You are not forced to use the new DRAFT pick Champion Select. > You're not being forced to play Ranked. > > Then don't? You really aren't being forced to. > > You can still do those things during the queue. The only thing I would suggest as improvement to the system is to have a loud, distinct sound play when it's your turn to ban/lock in your champion. > > On another note... > > I'm sure Riot is going to implement a "new Champion Select" without bans, so it's going to be "pick 2 roles, get matched with a team where everyone gets their role, then choose champion without ban phase". I respect what you say but Im just gonna say two things. First, saying blind pick is an alternative to tb is false. Tb existed to provide what blind pick cannot. The power to choose. Second, you just need to look at the multiple threads about people forcing their primary choice even if it isnt picked to see the 2 role choice doesmt work well.
Zedex (NA)
: They're not shoving anything down anyones throats. Its unfortunate you cannot play other modes outside of teambuilder, but the rest of the community can and does enjoy other queues besides teambuilder.
> [{quoted}](name=HalaVar Hikari,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=00100000000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-14T23:18:34.980+0000) > > They're not shoving anything down anyones throats. Its unfortunate you cannot play other modes outside of teambuilder, but the rest of the community can and does enjoy other queues besides teambuilder. Thats a poor answer. If others enjoy other modes, its totally fine. Is it okay then to remove the mode I like ? If you can't see any problem here , well...
: > [{quoted}](name=PoeticDreams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-14T20:13:32.409+0000) > > What people also dont get is that ranked bans and pick selection will make the game preparation much slower, a couple of minutes. This is the time you lost in "long queue times"... I don't want it. I don't need it. During queue times I can fix food, do work, pushups, whatever. During picks/ban, I have to stare mindlessly. > Yes I&#039;m salty. Probably too much. But LoL was a great way for me to cool off after a long day in a stressful and dangerous job. And I&#039;m trying to find the good in this but I don&#039;t... I can&#039;t speak for the community, I&#039;m just one person, but I&#039;m sighing right now in queue, 6 mins now... > > TLDR: > Please : > - Allow limiting to ONE ROLE > > UPDATE : I've been trying to play a game for the last 20 minutes now. I've had : > -2 afk dodges > -3 champ select dodge > -1 ban dodge > > I usually 2-3 games a day, now it might be 1 or 0. A couple minutes slower is completely worth it to make a match more enjoyable. Maybe you don't mind it, but I absolutely loathe it when current flavor of the month champions go unbanned because you will see them EVERY SINGLE GAME, which makes it exceptionally boring to play the same thing over and over. Allowing people to choose a single role wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. I'm not sure why Riot chose to force two roles. Maybe it is to speed it up the queue times a bit by allowing the matchmaker more freedom? Maybe its a game ideology thing? I have no clue. If anyone knows of a red post on the context of this I'd like to see it. To be honest, I don't miss team builder. Some of your later posts in this thread you mention being able to kick people. That is the single biggest reason I'm glad team builder is gone. It's bullshit to sit and be kicked over and over and over again because I wanted to play something off meta like Karma Jungle, or Rumble bot lane carry. The reason it's bullshit is because when Team Builder was originally announced, it was described as being the place we could go to queue for weird combos and do strange new things. It turns out the that community is entirely too tryhard to accept that so they usually just kick you from their team instead. Basically, I got told there would be this new mode which would allow me to play a way I wanted unlike the other modes, but instead it turned out to be even more tryhard than ever before. I was LIED to. So, I think you can understand why I wont shed a single tear for this mode getting the axe. I think that for the most part, this new champ select fulfills the promise of team builder better than team builder ever did. Now I can queue as a position, and pick whatever I want and I have no risk of being kicked out of the match for it. People are much less likely to dodge in new champ select than they were to kick me from team builder. Instead of playing 0 to 1 games a day I can now play 4-5! Huge win for me.
> [{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2016-01-14T23:11:50.843+0000) > > A couple minute slower is completely worth it to make a match more enjoyable. Maybe you don't mind it, but I absolutely loathe it when current flavor of the month champions go unbanned because you will see them EVERY SINGLE GAME, which makes it exceptionally boring to play the same thing over and over. > > Allowing people to choose a single role wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. I'm not sure why Riot chose to force two roles. Maybe it is to speed it up the queue times a bit by allowing the matchmaker more freedom? Maybe its a game ideology thing? I have no clue. If anyone knows of a red post on the context of this I'd like to see it. > > To be honest, I don't miss team builder. Some of your later posts in this thread you mention being able to kick people. That is the single biggest reason I'm glad team builder is gone. It's bullshit to sit and be kicked over and over and over again because I wanted to play something off meta like Karma Jungle, or Rumble bot lane carry. The reason it's bullshit is because when Team Builder was originally announced, it was described as being the place we could go to queue for weird combos and do strange new things. It turns out the that community is entirely too tryhard to accept that so they usually just kick you from their team instead. Basically, I got told there would be this new mode which would allow me to play a way I wanted unlike the other modes, but instead it turned out to be even more tryhard than ever before. I was LIED to. So, I think you can understand why I wont shed a single tear for this mode getting the axe. > > I think that for the most part, this new champ select fulfills the promise of team builder better than team builder ever did. Now I can queue as a position, and pick whatever I want and I have no risk of being kicked out of the match for it. People are much less likely to dodge in new champ select than they were to kick me from team builder. Instead of playing 0 to 1 games a day I can now play 4-5! Huge win for me. I cant deny what you say. Crazy picks were kicked. I think what I truly regret in the end was playing my role and my champion. And I think that could be done in the new system. That they implemented it this way just frustrates me, as if they never thougjt about casuals at all..
: In the future, there will be a queue that uses the new champ select that will be without bans/drafts and will have potential mirror matches a la TeamBuilder Classic. We're just focusing on draft modes at this very moment. **EDIT 14:26pm PST:** We'll start a conversation about the state of dynamic queues by EoD Friday (likely in a different place than this thread). In the meantime, keep the feedback coming!
> [{quoted}](name=Slumber Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-01-14T23:06:08.439+0000) > > In the future, there will be a queue that uses the new champ select that will be without bans/drafts and will have potential mirror matches a la TeamBuilder Classic. We're just focusing on draft modes at this very moment. A rioter in my thread ! Im grateful. However, bringing the new champion selector to blind brings little if no answers to the issues at hand. Its a simple way to disguise the "preparation time" of a game in a mode where there should already be little. BUT that is not the issue. The issue is forcing people to play roles. I predicted mass dodging and I was half right, but the true answer to the system comes from players themselves : people go in and try to play the role they selected even if they dont get picked for it. To me, this is probably worse than dodging since it makes for a much worse game experience. People should go ahead and downvote since I dont agree with a rioter, but hey, im just a casual player , so....
Setsan (NA)
: Your adc was MF. I know because I was there. EDIT: Also, I voted **yes**. So don't assume I went **no** on the ff vote. EDIT2: Match only lasted **21** minutes EDIT3: Link below is the screenshot of my match history as proof. http://prntscr.com/9q6kl9
> [{quoted}](name=Setsan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-01-14T21:27:54.506+0000) > > Your adc was MF. I know because I was there. I dont play adc actually
: You were forced to play with the AP Tryndamere in normal team builder too. How many of them do you think selected "mage"?
> [{quoted}](name=DrCyanide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-01-14T21:00:40.422+0000) > > You were forced to play with the AP Tryndamere in normal team builder too. How many of them do you think selected "mage"? Touche, bad example. But even then, you could kick
: Have you tried the new champ select yet? Honestly, I might be biased. Ive never done teambuilder. I mean-- I've tried to, but the wait times just wouldn't let me. I have school and work, etc, so I can't wait 15 minutes just to get a game. This new mode is almost insant and lets me play my roles without being stuck with a role I don't play, causing me to play horribly. Only gripe I have is I've literally always been last pick, and now that bans are different, I've been first or second pick every single time so far.
> [{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-01-14T21:04:05.610+0000) > > Have you tried the new champ select yet? Honestly, I might be biased. Ive never done teambuilder. I mean-- I've tried to, but the wait times just wouldn't let me. I have school and work, etc, so I can't wait 15 minutes just to get a game. This new mode is almost insant and lets me play my roles without being stuck with a role I don't play, causing me to play horribly. > > Only gripe I have is I've literally always been last pick, and now that bans are different, I've been first or second pick every single time so far. I never waited 15 mins in queue to play a game. Only time I've waited more than 5 mins was when I tried to play Illaoi when she was released. Remove the time you account for picks and bans also. Mate, it was BLAZING fast compared to now.
Kikirino (NA)
: Isn't Normal Draft basically Team Builder with the new champ select? Only difference is bans. Riot is not forcing Ranked down your throat. Being dramatic is an easy way to make people lose interest in what you are typing. I didn't even make it to the second paragraph.
> [{quoted}](name=Kikirino,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-01-14T20:57:23.226+0000) > > Isn't Normal Draft basically Team Builder with the new champ select? Only difference is bans. Riot is not forcing Ranked down your throat. Being dramatic is an easy way to make people lose interest in what you are typing. I didn't even make it to the second paragraph. There was salt, I agree. But dramatic ? I don't think so. The fact I have little time, little patience for bans, and no wish to play roles or champions I don't wish to play, IS VERY REAL
: I quit League a few months ago.
I wouldn't know, I'm still waiting for a game after 30 mins of queuing, getting dodged, and starting over !
: TeamBuilder where have you gone?!?!
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/y1VttssE-teambuilder-was-the-best-thing Basically my rant about it. But like the other guy in the thread said, most people will downvote you because you disliked "innovation", "shiny animations" and basically, that the game revolves around ranked and 50-60 mins long average games.
: Nobody is forcing you to do anything lol
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ahri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-14T20:22:02.071+0000) > > Nobody is forcing you to do anything lol Nobody is forcing me to play the game. If that's your mindset to the issue at hand, well congratulations, you are one special snowflake.
: I share your thoughts and agree with you. Good news is that the new team builder opens some fantastic opportunities that weren't really available in the old team builder. So from now on, I am a "Bot" main who is going to main ADC Raka, Nami, Morgana, and probably Tahm! Now that I can no longer be kicked from the lobby or not accepted, this is my chance to improve my winrate with these Bot lane champions without waiting for hours for a match. Thanks Riot! <3 <3
> [{quoted}](name=MudintheWater,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-14T20:21:50.681+0000) > > I share your thoughts and agree with you. Good news is that the new team builder opens some fantastic opportunities that weren't really available in the old team builder. So from now on, I am a "Bot" main who is going to main ADC Raka, Nami, Morgana, and probably Tahm! > > Now that I can no longer be kicked from the lobby or not accepted, this is my chance to improve my winrate with these Bot lane champions without waiting for hours for a match. Thanks Riot! <3 <3 I just noticed this. You cannot kick weird/unliked picks like you could. The system has basically fixed nothing of the blind pick troll syndrome. You are forced to play with the AP Tryndamere or you have to dodge. And do the long and tedious process again.
: PREACH ON MY BROTHER! Although Team Builder was a minority queue, so you will be down voted by most people on the boards as they only care about the things that affect them.
> [{quoted}](name=CoolHandJack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1VttssE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-14T20:18:28.579+0000) > > PREACH ON MY BROTHER! Although Team Builder was a minority queue, so you will be down voted by most people on the boards as they only care about the things that affect them. Minority or not, I NEVER had problems finding a game, and quickly. Otherwise I agree with you sadly.
  Comentários de Rioters
: I hate it when people say "Chill it's Norms, lol"
I think OP doesn't mind if you choose to do an off-meta pick or an unconventional jungler. The OP just wants your objective to be, ultimately, to win using that setup. I can understand that because that's exactly how I feel. I don't play ranked, to me it is a waste of time and too stressful for what a game should be, plus you often don't get to play the champion and the roles you want. The opposite of teambuilder. Doesn't mean I want people to troll and throw. I get it, there's no stakes at hand, but that's no excuse. If you want to fool around, go play COOP, that's EXACTLY the mode for that.
: To The Zed who called my Anivia "No-skill"
I think certain people don't like this thread because the message it contains is basically "as expected". If I were the devil's lawyer, I'd say you are throwing salt around to make yourself feel good about how your skill carried your anivia and wrecked your Zed. Now I understand the message, you are totally right but... This is nothing new. Skill carries games, or unskill carries the other team to victory. That is "as expected" of the game, thus this thread is not entirely useful. Hope I worded this in a correct way

PoeticDreams

Nível 30 (NA)
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