mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eBB8BuAi,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-12T20:35:28.374+0000) > > Damage being avoided is not an automatic thing. Whatever damage a champ can naturally avoid takes away from other things that they could prospectively do. So movement, shields, tank, heals, if on a carry, should be the only thing they have with their damage and have that define them. Like Kassadin who is known for the R-dashes and bursts. Not an elementary design like Camille who can escape, gap-close, slow, poke, nuke, engage, aa, and damage mitigate. Defense (range, cc, tank, enchantments) is safe, and can not carry. But since it cant, it has to benefit from its safety early. As with everything in the world, lower risk, lower but more likely reward. Carries should be high risk, high reward picks most of the time. The issue is numerous things can be easily avoided without the need of dashes or blinks or invulnerable states. You simply dodge. That is where the true micro skill lies in the game.
Nothing is going to stop anyone from dodging manually, and yes that is definitely part of the measure of a player.
koshkyra (NA)
: Riot is sacrificing the identity of the support role to make it more “fun” and appealing.
The thing is, we get to choose a position, so no one is going to pick Support. In terms of identity, Supports should be defined by a potent play they can make, or other meaningful thing they do. Survivability is not part of being a support, because Supporting is about doing stuff for others not yourself. Some innate defenses are fine, but you have tools to disable, enable, and defend the team; not yourself. The role is not self-Support. Riot has to relearn what built their entire business.
mack9112 (NA)
: The thing is lots of damage can also be avoided unlike defence which is always present.
Damage being avoided is not an automatic thing. Whatever damage a champ can naturally avoid takes away from other things that they could prospectively do. So movement, shields, tank, heals, if on a carry, should be the only thing they have with their damage and have that define them. Like Kassadin who is known for the R-dashes and bursts. Not an elementary design like Camille who can escape, gap-close, slow, poke, nuke, engage, aa, and damage mitigate. Defense (range, cc, tank, enchantments) is safe, and can not carry. But since it cant, it has to benefit from its safety early. As with everything in the world, lower risk, lower but more likely reward. Carries should be high risk, high reward picks most of the time.
: An Important Reminder for the Future of LoL
Comentários de Rioters
: A friend of mine is starting league for the first time
Miss Fortune is great to learn on, or a mage like Lux or Morgana. Jungle is a hard role but learn on champs like Rammus, and Amumu
Jamaree (NA)
: Do you have anything to prove that statement, literally anything concrete at all?
It is clear common sense and general awareness. If you even look at this NA board, it is far less active then it used to be and it's now used by 3 regions. You do not need numbers to see the glaringly obvious trend. LoL will never get back all they lost, but they might as well try to open their arms and try.
Cloud273 (NA)
: Buffing tanks directly is the best way to fix them
Runes bring a lot of damage to the early game making a lot of risky picks pretty safe, therefore hurting all safe champs in the process. The main culprit is definitely runes.
Comentários de Rioters
: Revert Asol
I am a sad former A Sol player too. Thxs for posting this.
Quáx (NA)
: Riot claims they want to promote fun interactions. Then why are they doing THE OPPOSITE
Diana and Akali were traditional carries, in that you had to stop them before they stopped you or have an answer. But the thing is there were plenty of champs who could easily stop them dead in there tracks, which kept the game fun. You knew when you went in with old Akali that you were taking that risk, and there might be a rewarding pay-off. On the other side you could avoid a lot of stress and have fun punishing the risky pick with a champ like Lissandra or pre-rework Swain. Now that there is so many high pay-off champs whose risk is only the players' ability, it leaves a pretty miserable experience. There are not fun parts of a game like this, but usually the not fun comes from player choice or time. In that if you pick risky and/or get counter picked it used to be mostly your own fault for not being able to play a safer champ. Also as carries get online in any moba it is not fun dying to them because they are stronger, but that is there inevitable role in the game. A lot of the in between should be getting there beyond just marksmen. That means play making, map reading, and creating room for farming. The more tools you have the less you carry. Old Aatrox only did one thing, same with Diana or old Akali. tl;dr Assassins as the highest-reward champs (can carry early) in the game have to be weak early, and plenty of reverts are needed. The ability to outplay means you have tools that that should should account for more in power budgets and therefore limit their damage. Mechanically challenging champs do too much, with too much damage and dominate the entire experience. Even really good players like to play a lot of different champs. Some pros like Nocturne, Zed, and Morgana.
: Most changes they make are now centered around pro play and esports. It's not surprising
I regretfully agree as it caters to high mouse-kb-related skills, but nothing standing out (everyone counterplaying) isnt that entertaining. To get more fun and entertaining I think the game needs to steer in the direction of risky DPS, with a few outliers (Diana, Kassadin) as carries. Most of a carries outplay should be their stats, or a lot of the roster is nonviable and the game just looks like a random action arena.
: Thing is, there's ways to have tank mechanics even in this meta. Maybe tank champs have temp shields that they have to exploit so they can do their job? Basically {{item:3053}} but more champion abilities on tanks that don't "slow the game down" but also allow them to better survive and pick their moment.
It is not about tank mechanics, it is about tank identities. Being tanky is different than carrying the label of, and being, a tank. Tanks do stuff other than kill even though the effects of what they do can kill you sometimes. Mundo's or Nautilus's ults wont kill you directly, but in a situation when they use it you might die. Camille's ult is to kill you, bc she has the tools to kill you, but she also as more utility than almost all tanks. Champs like that leave little room to effect a game for players who aren't into having their experience be entirely about outplaying to carry.
Comentários de Rioters
: Ranked is Frustrating
The mix of champs that go into every game a quite toxic and stressful. Talon, Camille, Kayn, Vayne is not a game that seems to enjoyable to go into. There are casual gamers who enjoy pvp and LoL but not like this. 3.5 cores, 2 carries is about the way to go less counter-play more macro. Therefore you can go into a game and do something fun besides 1v1'ing.
Lost R (NA)
: First Amendment rights don't protect you from privately owned companies.
: "Unilateral power fantasy" is a better descriptor than "no counterplay"
You are exactly right. The only chance you have to counter something is too often then being bad or just messing up. That is a lot of consistent pressure and stress on the player to always have a gameplay mechanics answer to every single lane and champ or suffer big consequences. Which is also as you put, being forced to play their game (champ selection and gameplay) no matter what your personality, taste, or mood dictates. LoL has the most twisted risk v reward dynamics in the history of mankind. Imagine if the only way to make money investing was you absolutely had to do active high intensity daytrading of penny stocks, or be content breaking even at best on anything else. That is league.
Comentários de Rioters
Eggbread (NA)
: (Champion Concept) Grolvic, Ixtal Troll
That is a Magic Undergrowth card. It was too costly to use though
: Will League EVER return to slower gameplay?
I think everything is going towards making their Chinese audience happy
: League is Trash. But it's the best Trash we have.
Genesis PS4 is new and is not trash. Its laning meta (there really isnt one) is already great.
: You know what? League just isn’t fun anymore.
The game in order to minimize the influence of learning even basic macro made and reworked a bunch of champs into overloaded do everythings that simply do not make the game fun. Empower noobs and casuals with easy spells like Ashe and MF R's. Even now with 8 millions people playing monthly only a small fraction are on here or Reddit. The majority want to have fun, and they used to when the game made sense. When we did not have to do everything ourselves. When there were a fair number of champs that were weak early. A casual player playing old Warwick after work and ulting someone was having a blast, and no one gave a shit. Casual players being able to be competitive with more skilled ones is a good thing aka Assassins like Talon or Akali cant be safe picks at any elo bc their pay off is too high.
: An Assassin that can Solo Baron :-)
: Champion pool getting smaller and smaller when its getting bigger and bigger
I think the main culprit is the lack of any real early game. Probably would have to change the runes or how different types of damage scale to solve it. If Irelia or Akali want to buld like a 1 or a 2, they should have the a tough time, like Viktor, early unless they figure it is best to go tank/bruiser and help another way.
: > [{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=caKkQ5x7,comment-id=000e00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-09T16:57:40.136+0000)So if your seemingly (to you) great changes has a negative emotional effect on a majority of the champ's present players than they are worthless changes. Never said I thought these were *great* changes -- I did intentionally call out that this was a 10-15 minute exercise, not a carefully crafted rework proposal. >Please increase your horizon of thought to be able to measure not only your changes, but how people will feel about them. My approach to design takes this into account to the best of my ability without being able to survey players during the 10-15 minute limits of the exercise. >I hope you understand, design does not take place in a vacuum. Cheers Although I'm not a Rioter, the fact that I've put this forward for input is proof that I do *not* believe design takes place in a vacuum. Rather than lecture me on not taking people's opinions into account (something I've tried to do by ensuring that most of A. Sol's current playstyle is represented in some appreciable form), specific feedback on what you do or don't like is more useful. It's also important to note that, yes, a redesign is usually *not* solely for the mains of that champion. Those players usually love the champion's current form, so a rework will leave some of them upset (and others of them overjoyed if they like the new direction). That's an unavoidable effect of any change, and it ultimately comes down to how much value there is in *making* a change for both mains (some of who will be upset, definitely) and for non-mains (many of whom may be thrilled to have a new champion they like), *because players who do not love the champion in their current form but would love them in a new form* are also players whose feelings need to be considered, especially if the theme of the character is one that is widely beloved. It's not like there's an easy answer, which is why most of my small design experiments aim to preserve core elements of a kit to keep the character recognizable.
You answered your own predicament with the last statement. Are reworks worth the compounding negativity of all the exiled mains from each and everyone one of them? The answer is obvious. One part you are definitely wrong about is concerning people who do not love the champ. Those gamers have limited vested interest in the champ so whether there is a rework or not, there activity will not change. For example if the rework is poor, those players will not care, and proceed with what they had been doing. What you need incorporate is somethings have priorities over other things. The highest being limiting or eliminating possible negative outcomes. The main source of negative drawback is from people who already enjoy the champ. Besides all of this, the typical Chinese gamer vs the average American gamer has different desires yet the latter's demands translate a lot better worldwide. Hence that is why China bought it from an America in the first place. You want to adhere to focused identities that can be, with fun, learned how to be used in the game. {{champion:421}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:77}} And like I said before, if your business's best use of capital is exiling loyal customers to get new ones, than investments need to be made elsewhere. Sol is a niche champ for a niche audience, that is good part of the reason we like him. Making him more for everyone will fail for mains on multiple fronts in terms gameplay and identity. It is bittersweet how Riot doing the opposite of what I believe has caused quite a large exodus from the playerbase. Usually being right is a good thing, but that is only true if people listen and use it.
C104k (NA)
: Onto new endeavors
This new MoBA on PS4, Genesis, is great and amazingly fun for ex-LoL players.
Jansuo (EUNE)
: Not Even As a Computer Science Graduate Can I Understand The Way The Remake System is Programmed
Winning and losing being the only public acct for your rank is great...... for trolls
puśsý (NA)
: Is it just me, or does build diversity suck?
Build diversity sucks because champs are mostly pingeon-holed. {{champion:77}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:421}} can be built different ways
Papa Stalin (EUNE)
: The Riot Games Balance team does not care about you or your feedback.
I am very concerned bc my wins have not be fun lately.
: Why trolls win League of Legends.
All the damage, micro heavy champs suggesting everyone should carry, the insane pace, and the lack of any real early game all contribute.
Ryelic (NA)
: Aatrox feels legitimately awful to play in lane now.
He is one buff away from being omnipresent once again, if he does not get reverted first.
: Aatrox dropped to 42.75% Winrate this patch
With the amount of cc, damage, sustain, area of control, and movement... he will always be top priority if not buried. That means is was designed poorly bc he is too good and too many things (overloaded) in a pvp team game. The only right thing to do is revert him to his old form where he is a more focused and healthy champ. The era of do-everythings and utility carries is hopefully coming to an end with this season.
: Can CC, protect ADC similar to a Braum except, that he takes no damage while doing so, execute+poke with Q, and roaming capabilities ult. I can't say, that it's impossible. 2 skills are great for support, and 1 suboptimal. Many support goes mid roam. Especially, if they win lane.
All true but do you think that is what pre-rework mains wanted?
: "Eve isn't weak at all right now, but we're buffing her anyway" - Riot
Validation of their rework so it seems like it was done for a reason?
: It's very underrated if you ask me. I can't imagine playing him any other way frankly. My main issue with him is that he falls off so fucking hard post 25 minutes that if the game goes that long you better not be any other role dragging your team down. If I turn into just a cc bot late game then I better not be taking up a role that someone else could carry from. His mana costs also aren't very high and I found I could spam spears for easy harass early game and the shield on his E is O fucking P for peeling and defending your adc, or tower diving. Incredibly safe laning.
Great reply. Because it is true people carry from every other role but support. And I am not sure that is a good thing.
: Thats like saying Morde mains liked the exact way he was and didn't think he could be improved upon, same thing for Skarner mains and other champs that needed or need a rework, just because you like someone for the way they are doesn't mean they don't feel they can be improved, or that they actually CAN be improved. Theres always room for improvement nothing is perfect. I actually GOT into Morde due to Malicious Metals posts on how much they enjoy Morde, but admit he is lacking and how much they were looking forward to a better version of him. If it weren't for that I wouldn't be playin Morde now, and that EXACTLY: "growing to enjoy and main a champ based on how they might change in the future" and its definitely " liking him for the champ he is, and how people feel he could be it better" Im not saying my changes are the BEST, but I am saying they are better than the current Sol that everyone is frustrated with, including Riot and the Sol Mains. We don't know if the Sol mains would hate it, BUT i DO know that some Sol mains wouldn't mine the extra durability at least. And i do kno that preserving the star gameplay is important. I am only trying to enhance the Sol gameplay experience, if you can give a clear example as to where the changes are leading to a negative effects then we can have a more progressive discussion rather than speaking in baseless hypotheticals. Very few people in this thread are tunnel visioning changes without thinking ahead. Djinn is especially careful when it comes to design. We are all trying to be careful in our decisions here. Again if u'd give some concrete critism on the design we can move forward in a more productive manner. We are really trying to go for the opposite design that Riot has taken here, i hope u can help us make the design better if u agree
First, the people on this thread do not matter. You have to be smart enough to know that. There are individual comments that might have some good input, but they are few and far between. Also you have to come to terms with you do not know the right decision to make: People that do not play a given champ are a lot less actively frustrated by not being able to play it. But people that do play a champ are often actively frustrated when it changes. That is a consistent truth. I am only trying to help, and am not trying to be rude, but results matter. And the sum of the results is poor, we know this. There is a really great thing we all know of that holds true in this situation, the first thing a smart person needs to know, is knowing what he/she doesn't know. ** I do not know the details on designing specific skills for a champ**, but i do understand people and their feeling, reactions, and behaviors given whatever stimuli, and also get how theoretically everything should fit together in the game (power budgets, game phases, pacing, general balance etc). But like I stated, and what is even better, if you tell me of some changes I know how each type of player is going to feel about them. That is why design by itself does not matter. What matters is the design's effect on the players and game. So even if the design is sharp and seemingly perfect, but in the end it causes friction, frustration, polarization, general negativeness, etc then the design is bad. You guys need to take a step back and brainstorm about the results of your actions, and what conversely would be happening if they never happened? Like, what the game and playerbase be like if Eve and Panth were still running around in their old form? Was the cost associated with the changes worth it given that the game would at least be in the same place? No news, is often good news. With design, business-wise your best bet is concentrate on casual/average-mechanical players (why do you think you got big in the first place, while dota lags, and the fgc stays very niche) having fun because the more functional teammates we have the better the game is for everyone. Your streamers are loud but will play regardless, and often want to simply separate themselves with their "skill"more so than help anyone, including you and your game. Watch pros and ask them specific questions along with their coaches to get good info with less bias. You guys are great and I love the work you do. But designing and decision making are very different skill sets. Let people like me (but not me) guide you so your guys' skills can by implemented to their maximum affect.
Hotarµ (NA)
: Where exactly are you seeing these results? Not a single website I visited (,, League of Graphs, etc.) has any credible or reliable evidence to show that support Pantheon is stronger than top, mid, or jungle. It also doesn't make much sense given that he can't consistently peel and his poke is weak early game. Maybe his all-ins are strong early with PTA but I honestly just don't see support Pantheon being _that_ good, definitely not to the point where it's meta and unbeatable.
LCS and Masters Play-ins
Comentários de Rioters
Mortismo (EUW)
: wont happen as long as crits and 100% ad ratio autos exist. supports dont exist to primarily babysit the adc, but because ADC of all champs scale better with gold than levels. also why nubrac can get diamond with teemo support while never being bot only reason mages go bot right now and G2 picked syndra bot is because the game is so early game its crazy top lane lost its tanks for bruisers and bullies jg is oneshot meta mid lane is either burst mages or bruisers, no scaling playing adc has never been as bad as in s9 supports like brand and other mages are super broken this season
I have to agree that scaling needs to be adapted to the present day in that spell and auto attacks should not scale perfectly together.
: What's the point of a ranked system in this game?
There is this saying I've heard related to LoL: "If everyone is good, than no one is".
: Why can't Riot move to a fully transparent MMR ranked system?
Because it isn't exactly 100% about competition. It is also about making money.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: I want balance Neither damage nor defense overwhelming. You seem to think you can only have one or the other. ##B A L A N C E
The reward and pay off are a lot higher with damage, that is why it should start weaker and end stronger.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: Damage scales faster and harder than defense.
Yup, things are better when damage is playing catch-up.
: see the issue is the gameplay is more centered on the Stars rather than him, or how he interacts with stars or even creates stars, because at the end of the day his whole kit is set up JUST so he can hit enemies with the stars that orbit him, instead of say having him create more stars on command. His stars do all the work, he just moves them by moving, thats why its passive. I get that he and his stars are one based on lore, but from a gameplay perspective if u don't kno that he looks very passive and disconnected in his gameplay. In his visuals his main gamplay consists on just moving around so his stars hit you all the time... I wouldn't say that risky and engaging are synonymous here in Sol's case bc again its just showing HOW important the location of his stars are to him, bc if they could rotate closer to him that wouldn't be an issue. And lets not forget about the fact that Star Dragon really shouldn't have to worry about too many beings getting close to him in the 1st place, nothing should really be a threat to him if we are talking about the lore, and that brings up another issue where as a battle mage Sol is very much lacking in terms of defense. He shouldn't be afraid to deal with targets if they get close but his lack of defensive abilities/passive hurts that fantasy. If changes were like Djinn is suggesting and the passive were moved to W's passive, Sol could get a defensive passive or ability to function better as a battle mage, and in that case thats a change that im sure many mains wouldn't have a problem with these aren't changes for the sake of change or JUST so you can make Sol for everybody that's not the case, these changes are to help Sol be better at what he already does, and to make HE himself more engaged in his own gameplay instead of the existance of the Stars taking 90% of the spotlight. Would u not agree that this is better than Current Sol? and lets not forget this still maintains the main gameplay of Sol. Look i love Sol as much as the next main, but I can see the points Djinn is making. If u'd let go of the false thoughts that reworks were always designed to take away Champion niche's u'd see that too, that isn't ALWAYS the goal.
The people that like Sol like him for the champ he is, and that is more important than any opinion on how you feel he could do it better. No one grows to enjoy and main a champ based on how they might change in the future. What you are leaving out of your thought process is emotional intelligence. It is just as much about how your changes affects present mains as it is anything else. So if your seemingly (to you) great changes has a negative emotional effect on a majority of the champ's present players than they are worthless changes. I see this a lot in that people just go head first into tunnel vision about changes without taking into account their ramifications. Please increase your horizon of thought to be able to measure not only your changes, but how people will feel about them. Because the people and their happiness is very important, and taking away happiness should be treated as a very serious decision; and usually it is amongst people of high quality, which I assume you are. All that being said, again, Sol has had a net positive effect on the game as a good addition that some people enjoy that has caused minimal to no problems within SR and the community. To take something that has those characteristics and try to make it subjectively "better" at the price of mains very "objective" feelings is ignorant. It is tiring having to keep explaining this, and that is why I can get short at times, because the more people that begin to become wiser and incorporate the customers' feelings along with their design ideas, the better everything will be. Until then it will be a steady result of disappointment, negativity, polarization, and very temporary increase in skin sales. I hope you understand, design does not take place in a vacuum. Cheers
: i think ur missing the issue here, the specific goal for this wasn't exactly to change Sol to make him more approachable for new comers, the suggested changes were created with the intent on making Sol easier to balance and to function better at what he already does with his Stars. Additionally Riot has admitted that Sol himself is too passive in his gameplay. Its not that he needs to be changed a lot simply for the sake of changing but just adjusted for he feels more engaging. Sure if we're talking about the loss of macro play you could make an argument for that, but if thats the case then why don't we try to have a discussion about that instead of...what ever that was. You CAN balance the Ult's CD so its comparable to E's CURRENT CD, in fact E pretty much already has an ult lvl CD and its not any stretch to say that THIS version of R could have the same CD as current E. Then the macro play pretty much doesn't change, Sol is BETTER at doing what he does best with his stars AND he himself is more engaged in his theme of creating stars (thus reaching his thematic potential more) AND is visually more personally engaged in the gameplay and shares a more equal focus as his stars instead of the stars being 100% of the focus like they currently are.
He and his stars are one. Which makes him very risky bc a lot of champs can get inside of them, but that is what makes him engaging and not passive. Having to perpetually think about your positioning, threats, and possible plays you can make with your E, Q is amazingly gameplay. It is one of a kind and not for everyone that is why there are 140 other champs.
: >There is no good answer unless you have zero emotional or traditional intelligence. This is the sort of comment that locks out discussion, because now any attempt to answer falls -- in your eyes -- into this category. It effectively says "my opinion is right and anyone saying anything to the contrary is an idiot." Not really a great way to have a conversation.
Well, I am right. So incorporate that into your own beliefs if you to be right as well. Taking stuff from people when there are other alternatives available is wrong. Making the choice to have a negative emotional effect on another person when the situation is very inelastic means the wrong choice has been made. It is your choice if you want to be right or wrong, and what is right is not always done.
: > [{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=caKkQ5x7,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-09-08T17:59:23.668+0000) > > Why not just revert and then make something else for other people? This habit of taking things away from fans is getting absurd. Well, for starters, I'm not a Rioter. Secondly, I tend to agree with Riot that Aurelion Sol is a bit *too* unapproachable to newer players, and think he could use some adjustments to make him play at least a *bit* more like a traditional mage. Hence why I tried to preserve the original playstyle as much as possible.
Sylas as a lane bully who can make complimentary plays with his pull would be AMAZING for new players. A. Sol is something totally different and different is good, and they should revert bc the game has plenty of vets to serve too as it is 10 years old. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Long Reply: Make something for new players. Why would macro-oriented players be punished to give something to someone else. There are so many new champs and remakes that already made a lot of champs micro heavy to cater to those players, so why take away even more? There is no good answer unless you have zero emotional or traditional intelligence. If you kick someone out for every person you make happy, you are not making any progress and leaving a trail of tears in the process. This is a game afterall, so if to make money you have to upset people, they should think of making a new game instead of reworking more champs.
Mortismo (EUW)
: but if marksmen dont go bot where do they go? i get your point but whats the point of having an entire class with only 1 role in which they barely excel in?
Marksmen need to have more unique identities like other champs, some scale, others outplay, a few bully, while a couple can be supporty. That way they dont always need supports and can actually be low maintenance solo laners or helpers themselves.
DaRudeOne2 (EUNE)
: The LoL community is the most toxic, disgusting community I've ever seen on the internet.
: [Gameplay Update] Aurelion Sol, The Star Forger
Why not just revert and then make something else for other people? This habit of taking things away from fans is getting absurd.
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Power Cosmic

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