: As an {{champion:6}} main I feel like he's absolutely fine. I rarely played him on Conqueror which no doubt biases my position somewhat; I've nearly always played him either on Grasp or PTA, both of which remain amazing on him, and I encourage his mains to try those runes as a substitute for Conqueror post-nerfs. I feel his build isn't even that restrictive, people just feel like it is. It's been some time since I've built {{item:3071}} first; usually I go {{item:3812}} these days. {{item:3181}} feels pretty good on him too and gives him a viable option versus true tanks he didn't really have before. {{item:3078}} remains a very underrated option on him as well in certain matchups, particularly against squishies and jungle assassins who don't expect the massive burst from a Spellblade-empowered leg hit. I think if he gets access to {{item:3053}} he may become overpowered - I won't complain if he gets it, but others might, because when {{champion:6}} is strong he gets *very* oppressive - particularly against melee champions that he can just dance around and kite down at will.
Hi fellow crab, I hope you are enjoying your games. Sanguine blade does not increase the attack speed of his W, btw. No one is saying those options aren't viable or fun, just that they do have objectively lower win-rates and seem to be slightly counter intuitive to his kit (W and passive apply reduced on hit damage of PtA). Ah Grap, so underrated in general. Happy crabbing.
: Weird to me how this is basically re-stating the OP (with the OP being phrased more to create discussion) but the OP is so downvoted and this is upvoted.
You didn't say this. You said our champion wasn't nerfed, doesn't have problems, and said that water is dry. Congratulations you earned your down votes.
Yets4240 (NA)
: There is an upvote/downvote bot running rampant. Don't mind it or take it personally; it seems to mostly affect mod comments and the posts themselves.
Every urgot on the Urgot main talked about this in the mains chat and just laughed at this post. Not bots, just Crabs who know better than this clown.
Urgasm (EUW)
: Urgot main here, he is more or less fine, its just every other champion you play against in toplane being slightly above average or op. All i really want is mana cost revert on q and for e to cross terrain. And maybe slightly more movespeed so you can actually catch people without flashing and hoping you kill them before they run away. When I first saw the rework I really expected his w to increase his movespeed not reduce it. I feel like these changes wouldn't be much, seeing all the free healing, low mana costs or resourceless abilities that other champions have toplane.
I would prefer sustain in his kit, or just not have Conq healing halved, but these are some very intersting changes. Good ideas man!
: So this post is interesting because of how badly it manages to misinterpret the OP. > I find it interesting that you describe his issues as a matter of perception when you bring up objective issues with his current power level. No I didn't. The only comment I make about his power level is that it was "statistically not true" that he was weak. > Firstly, while I cannot speak for every other Urgot main, and every other post, but I can say that both I and many other Urgot players I have spoken with aren't saying "Urgot is terrible now". I think you're using a bit of a strawman logical fallacy here by saying all of our issues are irrelevant due to Urgot still being a playable character without an abysmal win rate. No it isn't. I am saying he is a balanced champion that has "feel" issues that would be good to be addressed. I then mention briefly what you proceed to spend the rest of your post talking about as being an issue I would like to see looked at. I did not say that they are irrelevant. I said that Urgot does not need a buff. > at every single one Urgot was in line and not needing a nerf Okay, but, Conqueror was needing a nerf Urgot is still well within that "window" that Riot considers balanced so there was no reason for him to get a compensation buff and him getting a nerf that realistically, wasn't as huge as you are making out. 1% winrate is sad, but most a lot of champions get nerfed to be way weaker than Urgot is now and never buffed again because they are still considered "balanced" by Riot. > The "restrictive feeling" you mention is not just a feeling, it is an objective problem on the champion that already gives him issues winning games, and is only amplified by the latest nerf. Okay, but, the thing is, he doesn't have issues winning games. If you give him access to new items and those items turn out to be stronger then he'll just get nerfed. He won't have any easier of a time winning games. > As you say, he is classified as a ranged champion, yet gets to both build nor play like a ranged champion I mean, he does play like a ranged champion - a short ranged champion like Graves. He isn't sitting at 600 range but he's not afk'ing in melee range the whole time either. > As you, and I both have mentioned, Urgot does not play like a ranged character >designed to play in short range >range > but he would also not have to deal with nerfs that only hurt the champion instead of balancing him. What if they nerf Tiamat? What if they nerf Steraks? It just puts him into a different pool and if something in that pool is considered unbalanced then they'll nerf it and if he gets nerfed alongside it then that sucks, right? But it affects every champion in the game. It's not an Urgot problem. What about the various ADCs that were balanced with Conqueror? Why should they get nerfed too when they didn't deserve it?
> [{quoted}](name=WTBeGirl100EUhr,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dOYTqo55,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-14T03:37:24.140+0000) > > So this post is interesting because of how badly it manages to misinterpret the OP. Lol. Glad to see this post downvoted so much. > No I didn't. The only comment I make about his power level is that it was "statistically not true" that he was weak. You literally abuse the statistics. His win rate has dropped substantially, when Riot themselves have came out and said THEY DID NOT WANT TO NERF URGOT REGARDLESS OF CONQUEROR. > I am saying he is a balanced champion that has "feel" issues that would be good to be addressed. I then mention briefly what you proceed to spend the rest of your post talking about as being an issue I would like to see looked at. I did not say that they are irrelevant. I said that Urgot does not need a buff. You say he has FEEL ISSUES, yet bring up OBJECTIVE POWER-LEVEL RELATED ISSUES TO HIS KIT. You quite literally do not understand the definitions of words. Do you know why these issues FEEL bad? Because they are not balanced, and effect his power level! > Okay, but, Conqueror was needing a nerf Urgot is still well within that "window" that Riot considers balanced so there was no reason for him to get a compensation buff and him getting a nerf that realistically, wasn't as huge as you are making out. 1% winrate is sad, but most a lot of champions get nerfed to be way weaker than Urgot is now and never buffed again because they are still considered "balanced" by Riot. A one percent win-rate drop amongst tens of thousands of games is gigantic. You do not understand how statsitics or math works. Champions have literally been buffed ad nauseom for 0.5 percent drops. If Conqueror oh so needed a nerf, why does Mordekaiser with a 55% win rate not get impacted by Conqueror nerf when his win rate has shot up with the new version of the rune? Perhaps the ranged classification shouldn't be applied to Urgot if champions with his exact same playstyle, weaknesses, and range aren't being nerfed with the rune? Your use of strawmen is incredible. I never SAID that there shouldn't be a Conqueror nerf. The question is why does Urgot have to be nerfed with conqueror while other conqueror abusers haven't had their use of conqueror nerfed or themselves nerfed? There is no correct answer here because it makes no sense. > Okay, but, the thing is, he doesn't have issues winning games. If you give him access to new items and those items turn out to be stronger then he'll just get nerfed. He won't have any easier of a time winning games. If you account for how disgustingly low his pick and ban rate is, Urgot has an objectively low win rate. His win rate should be around 53% for his pick rate. > I mean, he does play like a ranged champion - a short ranged champion like Graves. He isn't sitting at 600 range but he's not afk'ing in melee range the whole time either. He does not play like a ranged champion. He has no kiting potential. No true gap closing. One of the lowest movement speeds in the game. His W is melee range, especially when accounting for how it's targeting system works. He has a flat movement speed reduction on his W. His passive is even more in melee range. If you think a champion at 300 range (Many top laners have low cool down abilities with more range!) is ranged, I don't think you understand what a ranged versus melee character is. His Q has such a high mana cost that even when leveling it up over W, barely offers enough use and range to play like a ranged character. He does not play like a single ranged character in the game. You complain that he cannot use any of the strategies of other ranged characters, or effectively build their items because of his kit, yet you say he is a true ranged character? HOW? It is such a false equivalency to quote Graves btw, a champion who doesn't have a W and passive that apply 50% and 33% on hit damage, who can build all ranged items and has a true gap closer and CC for kiting. It has also been a known complaint that Graves had much of what made him a decent ranged character removed with his changes. > What if they nerf Tiamat? What if they nerf Steraks? It just puts him into a different pool and if something in that pool is considered unbalanced then they'll nerf it and if he gets nerfed alongside it then that sucks, right? But it affects every champion in the game. It's not an Urgot problem. What about the various ADCs that were balanced with Conqueror? Why should they get nerfed too when they didn't deserve it? This is what we are asking for. What you ask for (These are buffs, objectively). Balance him around the fact that he plays just like every other melee bruiser/juggernaut in the game. It's like you misinterpreted every single thing I said. It IS AN URGOT PROBLEM. Why does this champion have a low win rate, why can't he build items of either classes he is associated with? Why is he one of the lowest win rate and pick rate Juggernauts behind Aatrox? I find it very interesting how you accuse me of saying Conqueror should not be nerfed just for Urgot, yet you ask to nerf a set of items used by an entire class of champions that are mostly balanced just for Urgot. Yes, they should be. Riot has came out and said that Ezreal will need to be buffed again due to the Conqueror nerf. Oh should this not happen because Ezreal is fine and just "feels" bad? This is silly. You and I both agree that Urgot cannot effectively ever itemize with ranged items, cannot play like a true ranged character (Try putting Urgot into a ranged champion contest with every other ranged classified character in the game and see how that works out for you). We both agree who both feels bad, and is suffering power-level wise because of this arbitrary defintion of him as ranged. While every other Juggernaut with equal range, healing in their kit, and Conq healing not halved due to being classified as melee, Urgot gets to not build their items, have halved healing, and have mana issues. This is reflected in the massive win rate drop. Riot needs to do something. It doesn't matter if other champions are allowed to sit at 44% win rates, let's not draw false equivalencies.
: Completely disagree with this post and all the replies. Urgot is completely fine. Conq is not the only viable rune on urgot and it never has been. I've always taken PTA and I've seen people do fine with aftershock. He doesn't need a buff that'll end up getting him gutted.
You're wrong! Statistics show we are correct! PtA is not as viable as Conqueror. His W and Passive apply reduced on hit damage which counts PtA. It just simply does less damage than Conqueror over the course of the game, and applies no sustain, something EVERY OTHER JUGGERNAUT HAS IN THE GAME!
: Urgot's issues lie with perception and feel, not "power"
I find it interesting that you describe his issues as a matter of perception when you bring up objective issues with his current power level. Firstly, while I cannot speak for every other Urgot main, and every other post, but I can say that both I and many other Urgot players I have spoken with aren't saying "Urgot is terrible now". I think you're using a bit of a strawman logical fallacy here by saying all of our issues are irrelevant due to Urgot still being a playable character without an abysmal win rate. As I said in my post that managed to get a bit of attention and controversy, the biggest problem was that Urgot's statistics just weren't warranted for a very heavy nerf. You cannot dispute that nerfing a champion's healing by half on the rune they take over 90% of the time is not a heavy nerf, especially on a slow Juggernaut without healing in their kit(Something Juggernauts NEED to have access to, as to counteract their weakness to CC and mobility). According to the very statistics you cite, Urgot's winrate has gone done nearly 1% in a very short period of time from 52.5% from before the nerf. As I mentioned in my previous post, Riot publishes what numbers they feel require a nerf for a champion at each elo, and at every single one Urgot was in line and not needing a nerf. So nerfing him was not fair or needed, especially when you consider that every other bruiser in the game did not receive that nerf, and continue to have higher win rates than Urgot, especially after the nerf (Looking at you, 55% win rate Mordekaiser). The "restrictive feeling" you mention is not just a feeling, it is an objective problem on the champion that already gives him issues winning games, and is only amplified by the latest nerf. As you say, he is classified as a ranged champion, yet gets to both build nor play like a ranged champion, yet gets nerfed alongside all of the ranged champions, and cannot effectively itemize as well as other melee-characterized champions in his bruiser/juggernaut class. By nerfing conqueror on only him, and not for other melees, especially Juggernauts, even more tools have been taken away from the character while the competition gets access to more. The problem now is officially characterizing Urgot as a melee. As you, and I both have mentioned, Urgot does not play like a ranged character, and due to every aspect of his kit, he can't even itemize with ranged items. He plays as a melee champion because in reality, he is one. It's time to start balancing him around that fact and cut him from ranged classification, even if it means rebalancing him a bit with the ability to build things like Sterak's or Hydra. Why does every other Juggernaut in the game get to have more options, more tools, and more ways to play than Urgot, just because of his range that he doesn't even use because his kit is balanced around his melee range W/passive? Why does alongside that fact, Urgot get nerfed because a class of champions/items/playstyle he has no way of using or being like? It does not make sense, and it constantly hurts the champion, and this is the essence of what we the Urgot mains are taking issue with. No matter if the champion has a 100% win rate or a 0% win rate, this just doesn't make sense from a game design perspective. By making Urgot classified as a melee character, and balancing him a bit around that and what it enables him to build, not only would he be a better more balanced champion, but he would also not have to deal with nerfs that only hurt the champion instead of balancing him.
: Any update on the {{champion:266}} buffs you guys said were going to be coming post-worlds? His winrate has been steadily declining since his sustain and waveclear was gutted a few months ago. With the Conqueror changes, he’s weaker than ever. I understand we don’t want him to go back to the meta defining monster he was in early 2019 but right now he’s a borderline troll pick into anything but very specific matchups. He’s weak early, mediocre mid game, and weak late game. He takes way too much effort to play for what you get out of him right now and the constant radio silence from the dev team is extremely disheartening.
My heart goes out to you, Aatrox mains. I hope one day he will be playable again.
: Conq rune nerfs a big hardnerf for Urgot, what about him ?
He really needs a Sustain/Defense related buff. He just can't keep up with other Top Laners right now due to his big lack of sustain.
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 13
Can Urgot please be buffed? Halving his sustain hurts him very very badly. As others have mentioned, he is the only Juggernaut in the game without sustain in his kit, and due to the damage reduction of his W/passive, he cannot effectively use PtA. Urgot is constantly in melee range when fighting, and due to the fair mana nerfs to E and Q, cannot effectively play like a ranged character/build range items, and thus is nerfed with them without being able to access any of the tools/playstyle options that true ranges have. Ideas: Firstly, please do not consider buffing his damage/mana costs/cooldowns. Urgot is in a fine state with those. Buffing his access to damage will not help the core issue, and make him more frustrating to play against. As promised in season 7, add a damage reflection reduction to his W so that things like Thornmail do not destroy him so much more than any other characters affected by the item. Characterize as Melee while either not allowing to build Sterak's or Hydra/Nerfing him alongside allowing him to build these items. Add some sort of sustain to his kit that is toned down vs other Juggernauts but synergizes with his W. Make W toggle happen at one level sooner. Buff passive armor/MR/Movement speed Thank you Mark.
Auxaura (NA)
: yeah, I main urgot and he seemed pretty ok in the meta, he was pretty strong but also had counters so there was counter play in pick phase. he's a ranged champ because of his long aa but he still only fights in melee range, so he can walk around to proc his passive. In all ins he is in melee range most of the time so he should be treated like such. the fact that he loses so much healing just because he is technically a ranged champ is pretty bad for him, it basically gutted him as a champ. Yes he can go pta but he loses a essential part of his kit which is prolonged fights and drain tanking. Like either change his kit so he is a melee champ that can go conqueror or let him keep the previous healing from conq because even tho he is considered a ranged champ, his kit isn't meant for ranged combat.
I agree. It's very frustrating how the champion's entire power budget in his kit is based around being in long drawn out melee range fights/trades but gets nerfed for an aspect of his kit he almost never uses. Truly an accidental nerf, in my opinion. One idea some of the others have come up with is giving some sort of healing in his kit,as well. Not too sure how that would work, but it's an idea.
5050BS (NA)
: TLDR But I agree that the changes break Urgot. He needs some buffs to compensate for it.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Raffyk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gz6UvPHg,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2019-12-08T20:45:53.436+0000) > > Did you read what I posted? I went over step by step why this is an unfair nerf to Urgot. (Allow me to repeat myself again) Like I mentioned, according to Riot, his stats at every single metric of play are considered not underpowered or overpowered and eligible for a nerf. So just by nerfing him with this change, that allone is a blatant violation of their policies and an unfair nerf to Urgot. I agree with your thoughts on essentially making him a melee character (Although perhaps still don't let him build Sterak's or Hyrda). Let me give you a quick summary of why this is such a hard nerf to Urgot, especially when compared to other champions in his class (Juggernaut). Juggernauts are designed as front-line champions that are capable of dealing decent amounts of damage over extended periods of time, in which they are balanced around being able to do damage and be tanky by having no mobility and being very slow. To balance this weakness so there is counterplay to them, they are often very weak to mobility and CC. Thus, all Juggernauts are given healing in their kits to offset this so both the characters they are fighting and the Juggernaut themself have options of dealing with each other. Urgot is the only Juggernaut in the game with no healing in his kit, but still NEEDS it just as much as any other Juggernaut. By effectively halving his healing, you are unfairly removing a mechanic he relies upon, that other Juggernauts and Bruisers in his class who use conqueror with a higher win rate aren't receiving. For example, Mordekaiser has had a massive spike in winrate since the new Conqueror came out, yet he isn't being nerfed. If all Juggernauts were too strong, and had all of their access to healing nerfed, this wouldn't be a big deal. But only Urgot is receiving this nerf when he is objectively not needing one according to Riot's outlined objective measurements of when to nerf or not. Press the Attack is completely and utterly not fine on the main build of Urgot (W focused). His W applies 50% damage of On Hit Damage (So if you are using is W, PtA does 50% less damage), and his passive does something of about 33% percent damage of on hits. So if you are using his W (His objectively best and highest win rate skil order) you are doing much much much less damage with PtA while also having no healing, and also having a cooldown on the PtA. Thus, the only way to not eat such a loss of damage is to level up your Q first and build around that, which wile playable, is incredibly less optimum and has a massive win-rate difference (50% versus the 52% of W build) and does not scale into the mid to late game whatsoever. According to Op.gg (The most accurate website to pull these statistics from, according to Riot) Conqueror on Urgot has a 52.5 percent winrate with a massive 90% pickrate whilst PtA has a 52 percent winrate with an astronomically smaller pickrate of 5 percent. If you have an understanding of statistics, this tells us that objectively Conqueror is the most effective rune on him (And will continue to be his best rune in terms of DPS and healing even after the nerf vs PtA). Why? Consider the fact that at a 5% pickrate, only people who main the character and are picking that rune set into ideal scenarios are utilizing that build everytime it is played, while with a 90% pickrate (Almost a 25 times larger pick rate!) indicating the rune being picked by new and experienced players alike plus being taken into nearly all kinds of matchups both good and bad, Conqueror still has a higher win rate. For such a small pickrate, for the runes to be equal PtA should be in the range of 54% win rating. So to sum up, if Urgot was forced to take that rune, he would do less damage, have less teamfighting potential, and less survivability. How is that not a gigantically unfair nerf when every other Bruiser and Juggernaut in the game with higher winratings aren't receiving that as well? Why just him when his statistics show he objectively shouldn't be receiving any nerfs? It's because it is. Imagine if you had an item in the game called Item X that gave you 40 AD and 10% CDR. Would be an okay item, nothing to outstandingly a big deal. Now imagine there are two champions. One champion, for whatever reason of the meta, finds themself having a very healthy and balanced item spike around buying item X, with them having no other effective options. Now say there is another champion, who already has a fair and effective power spike with their core items, but they receive a preason change where their passive states "If you own Item X, your abilties instant kill any champion in the game." This would obviously be broken and require a change if that was implemented into the game. Would the balanced thing to remove the item from the game, fixing the second champion but nerfing the first champion heavily, or could you fix that new passive? I'm not saying these situations are completely analgous, but try to think of it like that. Obviously, Riot agrees because they have officialy stated they will be buffing Urgot if his win rate and pick rate drops after 9.24. > > Thanks. This is unreadable to me, but i can at least address the first point; Urgot being too strong or too weak is irrelevant. This isnt targetted at urgot, its targetted at the rune itself. Its improper to think of it as a nerf to urgot, and if it affects him that much he should receive changes to just him himself.
Why are you here to waste my time and yours if you find a discussion about a champion's balance on a post about a champion's balance on a board about gameplay balance unreadable and uninteresting? Oh ancient one, please teach me your eldritch knowledge of how a change to a champion's balance on a post about a champions balance on a board about gameplay balance is irrelevant? Oh how my peanut brain never knew that the conqueror change was not changing lines of code in Urgot's kit! It's not like it has a 90% pick rating on the champion and the highest win rate on the champion, or anything! It's like when the rune was made it was stated by riot to be used by champions like Urgot, or anything! It's not like by nerfing it for ranged champions they are accidentally nerfing a non-ranged champion who is accidentally classified as one! Let me make this more readable for you so you don't have to say things I already said and accuse me of being wrong about: **Conqueror change help game be better by nerf OP Champions but also nerf not OP Champion accidentally. Here in this post I talk about how to buff Champion so this no happen. Plz offer your idea of how to Buff Champion so this no happen that I no say first.**
: good conqueror was never designed for urgot to begin with. if its any good on him its probably broken on actual ranged champs. and you know whats funny pre rework urgot WAS always considered a ranged champ. a short ranged champ but ranged champ none the less. now you urgot players are greedy wanting to have all the benefits of being melee while being ranged? sorry but no thank you!
Wrong on every single level! Maybe try actually reading what I wrote which disproves every single thing you mention. Conqueor was literally stated to be made for champions who excel at long drawn at fights, specifically melee champions. All of which Urgot plays exactly like. If you think he has the kit of a ranged champion you don't know anything about this champion or the game, to be honest. It was good on him and every other Juggernaut in the game LONG before a single ranged champion was able to take the rune. So you're just blatantly wrong on this one. I think you're being greedy for demanding breaking a character just because you don't like it. He doesn't have a single benefit of being ranged. He has the second-lowest range of any "ranged" character in the game, coming in at 350, being only ahead of Rakan. The next lowest range champion has a 100+ difference in range! There are melee characters with 100+ more range than Urgot with every single ability in their kit! Yasuo! Akali! Mordekaiser! Aatrox! Why are those characters allowed to not get hit with your logic but you demand that Urgot does? Additionally, Urgot has had one of the most balanced win-rates, pick-rates, and ban rates for 6+ months at every single elo. If He is such a ranged and melee abuser especially with Conqueror, why has his win rate stayed the same when every other character in the game, including melee characters that use Conqueror's win rates have gone up (Besides poor Aatrox)? His kit is perfectly designed around Conqueror as a short range melee character Juggernaut, a rune that was designed for this kind of champions, as stated by Riot so you can't even disagree with that. Riot has even said in the past they intended for him to use conqueror. As I said so laboriously in my post that you seemed to have no taken a minute to have even skimmed, is that conqueror has been op this pre-season for reasons that have nothing to do with how Urgot uses the rune or how most champions use it. AP champions with no cooldowns spamming abilties to keep Conqueror perma-procced have been the issue, with data backing it up. The very reason Ryze is being nerfed, why Asol was almost nerfed, and why Morde and Cass are being looked at for nerfs. The best part? Riot has came out and agreed with us Greedy Urgot players and has said they will be buffing him. Sorry but yes! Thank you!
: I wouldn't know, I'm a 0 IQ aftershock urgot player, I just love throwin myself at enemy champions too much to not take it
That's a pretty fun playstyle too my dude! Not saying that isn't an option or anything, just keep in mind Conqueror has the highest win rate and pick rate, because of his kit Synergizing perfectly with it. If you really like that feeling of omega tanking and being at the front line, you should give Conqueror a try. Not only is the damage really helpful because of how perfectly it synergizes with his level 9 W, but the healing, when combined with Death's Dance, allows you to survive tough team fights while drain-tanking when combined with your E's shield. The reason this is a balance issue even though Urgot can function with other runes is he has much less base tanky stats than other champions who can take Aftershock, but is balanced around being able to do more damage than those champions. Since he can't efficiently build into full tank items with his base stats and kit, while you can play him as more tank than a juggernaut, just keep in mind it's much less gold efficient and kind of fighting a little bit with how his kit is balanced. Give it a try sometime if you get the chance! However you have fun is great though, I respect that no matter what.
Pika Fox (NA)
: I dont see how this would be an unfair nerf to urgot.... while i agree his passive should state his autos are considered melee and not ranged, and balance him around that, press the attack is still perfectly fine on him.
Did you read what I posted? I went over step by step why this is an unfair nerf to Urgot. (Allow me to repeat myself again) Like I mentioned, according to Riot, his stats at every single metric of play are considered not underpowered or overpowered and eligible for a nerf. So just by nerfing him with this change, that allone is a blatant violation of their policies and an unfair nerf to Urgot. I agree with your thoughts on essentially making him a melee character (Although perhaps still don't let him build Sterak's or Hyrda). Let me give you a quick summary of why this is such a hard nerf to Urgot, especially when compared to other champions in his class (Juggernaut). Juggernauts are designed as front-line champions that are capable of dealing decent amounts of damage over extended periods of time, in which they are balanced around being able to do damage and be tanky by having no mobility and being very slow. To balance this weakness so there is counterplay to them, they are often very weak to mobility and CC. Thus, all Juggernauts are given healing in their kits to offset this so both the characters they are fighting and the Juggernaut themself have options of dealing with each other. Urgot is the only Juggernaut in the game with no healing in his kit, but still NEEDS it just as much as any other Juggernaut. By effectively halving his healing, you are unfairly removing a mechanic he relies upon, that other Juggernauts and Bruisers in his class who use conqueror with a higher win rate aren't receiving. For example, Mordekaiser has had a massive spike in winrate since the new Conqueror came out, yet he isn't being nerfed. If all Juggernauts were too strong, and had all of their access to healing nerfed, this wouldn't be a big deal. But only Urgot is receiving this nerf when he is objectively not needing one according to Riot's outlined objective measurements of when to nerf or not. Press the Attack is completely and utterly not fine on the main build of Urgot (W focused). His W applies 50% damage of On Hit Damage (So if you are using is W, PtA does 50% less damage), and his passive does something of about 33% percent damage of on hits. So if you are using his W (His objectively best and highest win rate skil order) you are doing much much much less damage with PtA while also having no healing, and also having a cooldown on the PtA. Thus, the only way to not eat such a loss of damage is to level up your Q first and build around that, which wile playable, is incredibly less optimum and has a massive win-rate difference (50% versus the 52% of W build) and does not scale into the mid to late game whatsoever. According to Op.gg (The most accurate website to pull these statistics from, according to Riot) Conqueror on Urgot has a 52.5 percent winrate with a massive 90% pickrate whilst PtA has a 52 percent winrate with an astronomically smaller pickrate of 5 percent. If you have an understanding of statistics, this tells us that objectively Conqueror is the most effective rune on him (And will continue to be his best rune in terms of DPS and healing even after the nerf vs PtA). Why? Consider the fact that at a 5% pickrate, only people who main the character and are picking that rune set into ideal scenarios are utilizing that build everytime it is played, while with a 90% pickrate (Almost a 25 times larger pick rate!) indicating the rune being picked by new and experienced players alike plus being taken into nearly all kinds of matchups both good and bad, Conqueror still has a higher win rate. For such a small pickrate, for the runes to be equal PtA should be in the range of 54% win rating. So to sum up, if Urgot was forced to take that rune, he would do less damage, have less teamfighting potential, and less survivability. How is that not a gigantically unfair nerf when every other Bruiser and Juggernaut in the game with higher winratings aren't receiving that as well? Why just him when his statistics show he objectively shouldn't be receiving any nerfs? It's because it is. Imagine if you had an item in the game called Item X that gave you 40 AD and 10% CDR. Would be an okay item, nothing to outstandingly a big deal. Now imagine there are two champions. One champion, for whatever reason of the meta, finds themself having a very healthy and balanced item spike around buying item X, with them having no other effective options. Now say there is another champion, who already has a fair and effective power spike with their core items, but they receive a preason change where their passive states "If you own Item X, your abilties instant kill any champion in the game." This would obviously be broken and require a change if that was implemented into the game. Would the balanced thing to remove the item from the game, fixing the second champion but nerfing the first champion heavily, or could you fix that new passive? I'm not saying these situations are completely analgous, but try to think of it like that. Obviously, Riot agrees because they have officialy stated they will be buffing Urgot if his win rate and pick rate drops after 9.24. Thanks.
: Apparently i dont know urgot very well, because i meant it as a shitpost about the odd choices riot sometimes makes.
If you meant it sarcastically, what do you think would be the best thing to do? I do agree that Riot really makes some questionable balance decisions.
: > [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gz6UvPHg,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-12-07T05:16:51.915+0000) > > If only. People will cry “identity identity!!!!!” That didn't stop riot from doing whatever they did to Aatrox lol
A moment of silence for Demon Boy and what was done to him.
SiG DxD (EUNE)
: that could mean he can use {{item:3053}} again also
Hey Sig, I've talked about that a in some of the other comments and have been asking for opinions on ideas of how to deal with that. Let's say making Urgot a melee champion happens, just for this conversation(not because it may be the exact most balanced option) and he is able to build Sterak's. How would you go about balancing that with that happening? I mentioned perhaps just make it to where he isn't allowed to build Sterak's, although some mentioned hard coding items from being built might not be a good idea. I would love to hear some ideas besides nerfing him around Steraks unless that could be somehow balanced. Either way, always looking for some conversation on how to balance that.
floo (EUW)
: My bad, I skipped your talk about conqueror for that matter ^^' As for the ap > ad amounts, since the rune is mostly used/supposed to be for champs with extended fights, 1 stack per spell makes sense. Perhaps you could also make DoT refresh the timer a limited amount of times then.
Thanks for considering my point about that after I mentioned it. Appreciate it That's a pretty interesting idea, having DoT effects only be able to keep proccing the runes so many times until an ability or auto-attack gets used again. Perhaps something like Dot effects also proccing for less time than something like an auto-attack or ability as well? It seems silly to me that an overtime effect gets considered equal in proccing it when a champion could have walked away and been at their tower while that happens. Thanks for your comments friend. Good luck with your games.
: If you skimmed my post, I mentioned that Riot should add a 3rd classification between ranged and melee, and scope problematic 'pseudo-ranged' champions into it to properly address their nuance relative to melee and ranged champions. {{champion:1}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:427}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:8}} All of these champions have been deemed problematic, whether lack of power or abundance, due to some aspect of their range vs melee or short range vs anything else. A middling classification between range/melee would greatly benefit their overall design if they were rebalanced around utilizing, or obtaining additional benefits from, specific itemization balanced around taking damage in a fight without the possibility of assassins or "true" ranged champions abusing it. They would be both less frustrating to play against and more satisfying to play as.
I keep coming back to this comment and realizing how much this would help the game. I wish Riot read this and pondered it.
: I've read your post and think that we could get compensation buffs. Change Urgot's range to be melee. We could remove the -125 base movement speed from Purge and give Urgot's base movement speed an increase. That's all I have.
I pretty much agree with this in some way to an extent too. I hope Riot doesn't try to buff him in other ways by making him have more damage/mana. The issue for sure wouldn't be properly balanced with more access to things like damage. The only thing I'd like to offer as a counter-point to myself and others who agree with making him a melee character is that him being able to build Hyrdas and Sterak's might add some extra unexpected power to his kit. Do you have any idea how that might be balanced around without just outright saying he is melee but can't build those items? Thanks for your comment and taking the time to read my thoughts.
Sirsir (NA)
: Buff urgit then If a champ is reliant on a semi-op keystone to function theres a deeper problem at play here
I agree with some sort of buff, or excluding him from the ranged nerf. He has been reliant on it since before it was OP. As I described in my post, Juggernauts generally just really need the healing the rune provides so that they can tank their way through CC in team fights, due to lacking mobility/gap closers and low movement speeds. Urgot in particular's kit is just designed to perfectly use Conqueror, it would be frustrating and not useful to his kit to be forced into using any other rune. Like making a tank take Electrocute or a non-auto attack based champion take Hail of Blades. So while yes I have agreed that Conqueror is currently OP, Urgot's need for it isn't due to it being op, but just to how Juggernauts have been designed and balanced in the current game. There's even counterplay to this fact with things like CC, grievous wounds, mobility etc. Thanks for your comment Sirsir.
: Reduce his attack range to 200 so he's melee. Give him some power elsewhere to keep him in a balanced state.
I myself think something along this line is the best way to go about it. Instead of adding random buffs to the kit to offset the Conq change, just reduce his range so he can have access to the healing back, and perhaps increase movement speed with W versus what it is currently by a small margin. Thanks for your comment!
: If Urgot is underpowered with the nerf to Conqueror then Urgot can be buffed individually. Given that on-the-whole he is on the strong side of "fine" I don't think the nerf is going to put him into some kind of unplayable state. Outside of that, Urgot has a very similar winrate with Press the Attack (52.15 vs 52.6) by plat+ on u.gg so I think that he will be OK even if he has to switch to PtA. With that in mind, most Urgots tend to take PtA in match-ups where he already has good kill pressure early game to snowball so it's definitely a downgrade overall.
Which is why I suggested ways to buff him individually :) So you're okay with nerfing a champion that meets every metric that Riot uses to determine balanced as balanced, whilst champions within the same class as him are meeting the criterion of being too strong? That does not make sense to me from a design perspective. It will heavily nerf the champion, much more than you actually think. You are using the statistics incorrectly for PtA vs Conqueror. According to u.gg, for Plat+, pleaase be aware that Conqueror has a 90%+ pickrate, whilst PtA has a 5% pickrate. That is actually too small of a sample size to determine they near are equivalent. Statistically, I can tell you that this actually means PtA is weaker than Conqueror, because for it to be similar in win rates with such a smaller pick rate, means that even when it is only picked by experienced players in the perfect scenario, PtA can't even match the win rate of Conqueror being picked by both inexperienced and experienced players taking the rune into hard matchups and easy alike. This change will heavily nerf Urgot, there is no question. Will he still be playable? Yes. Will he have a much more difficult time being able to do anything in team fights since he will have his healing halved while eating CC and burst damage? Yes. That is what happens when you nerf a Juggernaut's healing, since they are balanced around the lack of mobility and escapes to be able to survive CC and high burst through healing or similar mechanics. I'm glad you can agree it is a downgrade overall.
floo (EUW)
: Except.. Conqueror is probably the strongest rune in the game atm? By far? It's pretty good on everyone rn, so the numbers should be reduced for all, in a general nerf. Not just ranged for that matter. Ranged exclusion would fuck Urgot even more, what? It's also not good to exclude ranged entirely, simply make it harder for them to stack/maintain the stacks. It gives more AP than AD, because AD is also increasing AA damage.
As stated in my post and other comments, I agree that Conqueror is too strong right now and needs to be nerfed in a better way than is being done. I purposely stated in my post that I wouldn't be addressing how to do that because that is a different conversation than fixing Urgot from the random and unneeded nerf, albeit a conversation I would be interested in having outside of the context of Urgot. Personally, I still think one of the biggest problems is how much more AP it gives, because on champions with range and low cooldowns it really does become the biggest damage increase of any keystone, something that I do not think is intentional. I think making it much harder to generate stacks and maintain them (I.e giving 1 stack per ability and 3-second duration) would be a better way to accomplish that so that AP champs that need the rune can still use it while stopping some of the AP spam abuse it is currently offering.
: ADC's just got their xp nerfed and enemy solo laners have a 3 or 4 level advantage by level if we lose lane. Give them a break. Conquerer is fine, you rarely ever have 10 stacks as ranged anyways.
This is a false dilemma logical fallacy. I am extremely aware of the XP nerfs, so thanks for pointing them out I guess? I am in no means advocating against things like fixing the XP nerfs. I personally think it is very unfair how many levels ahead solo lanes get from junglers and bot lane currently. It doesn't make sense to tell me to be quiet about X because Z is going on when X has nothing to do with Z just because you yourself are more interested in Z than X. But guess what? I can want that fixed and also want Urgot getting unfairly nerfed fixed. So no, I won't give anyone a break. Conqueror is not fine. It's pick rate has sky rocketed since pre-season, and there are champions like Mordekaiser and Cassiopeia who have straddled 54%+ win rates at certain elos with high pick and ban rates. I'm not sure if you read what I wrote, or have ever actually played Urgot before, but when he commits to a trade with his W you almost always get to 10 stacks. Other ranged champions like Cass can easily instantly get to 10 stacks, which is why the rune is overpowered. Something is going on that would indicate conqueror is probably NOT FINE if it's pick rate has sky rocketed and champions that recently started taking it or have used it before have had their win rate sky rocket.
Garson211 (EUNE)
: Adn mages with 40% cd are not issue? there is so many armor items and not so good mr.gap between ad and ap is so huge even item cost are so low for ap items and giving so good actives
I have no idea what this has to do with Urgot or the Conqueror change happening to him. Yes I agree that CDR is too easy to build on AP, and there are few good MR resulting in AD/AP having a large gap. At the end of the day though, this thread is talking about how Urgot is being nerfed by the Conqueror change and how to fix that. These things aren't mutually exclusive. Even if they fixed what you were talking about, that still doesn't solve the issue at hand with Urgot being nerfed.
: Hey Meddler, Is there anything currently planned for Urgot? Several changes made in preseason felt awkward for him, Auto attacks with passive only accounting for 2 stacks of conqueror despite his passive applying spell affects, Dshield and now the conqueror changes are about to hit him a bit, although he seems to barely struggly in lower MMR at all and I don't see any changes for him coming unless that'd change so I wanted to ask if just anything is planned for him in general.
His win-rate, pick rate, and ban rate have all been within normal bounds - Both before the Preseason Conq. change, and have not rapidly increased after Preseason like other champions. Halving his healing more than likely will lower win rate by quite an amount at Average and Skilled play. I definitely think he could use some compensation buffs if the current Conqueror change goes through as-is.
Zoli Ben (EUNE)
: Any plans for {{champion:6}} for yet again being gutted thanks to longer range abusers?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
Hi Meddler, hope you enjoy your stay in New Zealand and have a happy holiday. Are there any plans on adjusting Urgot due to the coming extremely hard nerf on him with the ranged Conqueror changes+Doran's Shield change? His statistics are currently within balanced metrics and have not been of the new Conqueror abusers, having very little way to abuse it with the range due to his short range. We the Urgot players feel like this is needlessly shotgun-kneecapping the champion.
: This is due to how their hitboxes work. Hooks run on what riot has described as a lolipop hitbox. Essentially when the hook hits max range, it changes from a straight rectangle to a circle, which can of course clip the hitboxes of nearby enemies resulting in really bulshit hitboxes. Naut's is more favored in length than width, whereas thresh is the opposite
: >why not do like what was done with Ezreal not being able to build two tears and just make it so that he can't build Sterak's? Don't think there has ever been an instance of a champion being hard coded to not be able to buy an item - Riot did remove Ezreal's double tear build but indirectly, they made buying more than one tear impossible universally (unintentionally nerfing the 6 tear strat). Would set some strange precedents and people would start asking Riot to disable or enable certain items on other champions. Which sounds like a can of worms I personally would rather not Riot open up.
While I think this might potentially be a fair point to consider, just to play the Devil's Advocate, be careful we don't slip into using the slippery slope fallacy. Let's talk about the problem at hand, how to best balance Urgot, especially around what I wrote about. How would you go about fixing that? Personally, I think just making him a melee character or implementing some incarnation of WoonStruck's mid-range idea sounds like effective solutions. What's wrong with precedents or people asking Riot to do things? What if certain champions not being able to buy certain items could help the game? Personally, I wouldn't want to go down that route if not needed as well, but I also don't see it as like philosophically a game design sin that would ruin the game. Could you explain how it might that isn't along the lines of slippery slope? Thanks for your comment friend hope you're having a good night.
: Yeah. Like I mentioned: Riot would likely make a super "original" and "unique" ranged ADC that can build melee items then.
Slippery slope fallacy. I do hope they don't do that though lol.
5050BS (NA)
: It is Urgot really needs to be changed to Melee
Thanks for your comment friend. Something along that line I agree. We can hope!
5050BS (NA)
: Just make his attack melee. No sane Urogt builds {{item:3085}}
: >Personally, I disagree just a little bit. Mages still seem to get 40% Cdr for free which I don't think is balanced. I believe there needs to be a meaningful itemization choice between spamming abilties and damage. I'm fine with your rotation dealing lots of very impactful damage, but you shouldn't be able to spam that rotation near instantly incase you missed your skill shots. And if you want access to more of your CC or utility via CDR, you should not have access to so much damage. Obviously, not a dichotomy and I think there is a way to blur this a little bit, but I think this should be the centering of that decision process. Mages get 40% for free because half the mana itemization gives 20% CDR. That's an issue in itself. Luden's and Archangel's gives a mage EVERYTHING they could want. Massive damage, massive CDR, massive mana and an effective way to let you burn through more of it with zero drawbacks. ArchAngel's gives you a massive shield on top of that. Other classes have the same issue. TF, BC, ER, etc. 20% CDR should only be on an item like Frozen heart/icebourne since you dump a massive amount into mana and armor...no health, (basically) no damage. Almost all utility. You are investing into fighting very specific targets. >Yep. Like what I said above, in the exact same fashion, really. More utility? Less damage. More damage? Less utility. Why does Ryze or Akali have both and get to lean into both, as an example? Champions with problematic base design, along with being built around items with problematic base design. >Thankfully the item isn't being poached right now due to the meta by those champions (Except perhaps conqueror katarina players), but I agree(As long as Urgot can still build it!). Why do Ranged champs Bloodthirster and Death's Dance? Especially problematic when considered with the damage-over time modifier of DD that offer surviability. Sure, that kind of build takes away from Crit options and slows your build down as a ranged champ, but as you said, if the game was slower, this wouldn't be such a problem. Part of why I'm not playing this game much anymore is because they've balanced it around not having the option to slow the game back down. Its just in a bad direction and never going to recover. >Cough looking at your Deathcap. I don't think Deathcap is healthy. Its a win-more item that's so good that its still amazing in non-winning cases. Its literally second item on some champions just due to the massive amount of AP it offers, and basically improves your AP scaling by 40%. I can't help it if its one of the single best purchases on my favorite champion. I don't like how the large majority of items in this game function and are balanced. >I wish this was what was being worked on this Pre-season, but sadly map color-changing gets people more excited at a glance. Riot will never work on significant balance during the preseason. They will make large, pointless changes in an attempt to draw back players who quit, or draw in new players that don't understand the game and essentially won't be affected by the shit-show it causes. Because those are the most likely buyers of skins.
: Leagueofgraphs says conq+inspiration is 51.5% while PTA + resolve is 54.2%
Every other website I checked shows numbers in line with the statistics showing Conq having the higher winrate. As mentioned previously, PtA is often taken into match-ups that one would win with no runes, and at such a tiny pick rate, the statistic isn't very useful due to small sample size and the player differences I mentioned above. Thanks for the comment though!
: Funnily enough, Urgot's highest win rate keystone is Press the Attack, not Conqueror. Maybe they are doing you a favor by nerfing it and Urgot players will start taking PTA.
Going to agree with Woonstruck on this one. Setting aside my anecdotal experiences as an Urgot main, (op.gg) Conqueror has the highest win rate. One thing I would like to point out, however, as an Urgot player, is generally you will be taking PtA against guaranteed easy matchups or in situations where you know you will snowball, and this is generally the minority of the time. Since Conqueror is naturally picked as the most flexible (and best) keystone for him, it will be picked into losing lanes and by newer players a lot more on average. PtA generally will only be taken by people who play Urgot a great deal and would have a similar win rate with almost any keystone on him. They really aren't. Conqueror has the highest damage over time for the champion, as it synergizes perfectly with his kit, and he unequivocally needs the healing to survive team fights, ganks, and skirmishes as he has no ways of dealing with CC or any escapes. This is pretty typical for a lot of the Juggernauts and Bruisers which is why Conqueror is taken on them so often. At over 3mil mastery across several accounts, trust I would know if PtA was the better option.
: Uhh, just to touch on a few things here, not that I support itemization's state at all: Death's Dance is about as gold efficient as Gunblade, but without adding 150 damage, a slow, and giving you a new ratio to work with (which is part of why gunblade is broken). Death's Dance is actually about surviving, while Gunblade is about...abusing absurd scaling your champ has to make use of the insane gold efficiency and kill potential this item provides while also giving you free sustain because why not? idek. Item should have been deleted a long time ago. Nobody buys it except the cases where champions are literally abusing it. Zhonya's having CDR is alright since they removed the very large majority of non-mana CDR items from the game. The issue is that Riot likes to make items that give both offense and defense in abundant amounts. I don't think you should be able to buy both at the same time. If you want to be tankier, you should give something up. If you want to deal damage, you should give something up. For this reason, I'm honestly not comfortable with having Death's Dance being allowed on anyone other than Melee with its current design and numbers. If the game is ever slowed down, ranged will abuse this item to no end, possibly combined with Blood Thirster, since they don't share unique passives and they should, to guarantee they don't get bursted, while sustaining absurd amounts, probably abused with Lethal Tempo and crit itemization, and shit like Yuumi's new E. Although this is unlikely to end up being the case, the room is still there for extremely apparent abuse cases. The only reason it doesn't happen right now is because rushing the highest possible damage is what makes you relevant, and is what 90% of champions are balanced around now. I think almost all itemized damage actives/passives should be removed or not scale on ANYTHING other than possibly the buyer's level or minions/monsters. Goodbye Gunblade, Liandry's, Luden's, etc. Spellblade from Trinity is broken and needs to be toned down to be less about bursting someone down and more about sustained damage over the course of a fight by users that can consistently proc it again: change it back to 150%. Also, its too much of a "ball of stats" item now. They added 15% more attack speed to it and 10% more CDR so they could use Stinger in its recipe. That needs to be undone as well. Change it back to recurve bow and make the final AD 30 (phage+recurve on-hit) instead of 25. This will allow the cost to be substantially reduced, while remaining a huge buy on the very large majority of users. _________________ This game's itemization as a whole sucks and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up to enable champions, not simply scale them to absurd levels. This is one of the things tank itemization does amazingly well that pretty much every other category of itemization fails at....but it doesn't matter because tank items aren't damage items, and also their gold efficiency sucks...and the defensive stats themselves (not on the item) were basically nerfed to the ground while AP, AD, and AS got buffed substantially over the years.
> [{quoted}](name=WoonStruck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gz6UvPHg,comment-id=000100000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-07T07:20:22.692+0000) > Death's Dance is about as gold efficient as Gunblade, but without adding 150 damage, a slow, and giving you a new ratio to work with (which is part of why gunblade is broken). :) > Death's Dance is actually about surviving, while Gunblade is about...abusing absurd scaling your champ has to make use of the insane gold efficiency and kill potential this item provides while also giving you free sustain because why not? idek. Item should have been deleted a long time ago. Nobody buys it except the cases where champions are literally abusing it. Yep. > Zhonya's having CDR is alright since they removed the very large majority of non-mana CDR items from the game. The issue is that Riot likes to make items that give both offense and defense in abundant amounts. Personally, I disagree just a little bit. Mages still seem to get 40% Cdr for free which I don't think is balanced. I believe there needs to be a meaningful itemization choice between spamming abilties and damage. I'm fine with your rotation dealing lots of very impactful damage, but you shouldn't be able to spam that rotation near instantly incase you missed your skill shots. And if you want access to more of your CC or utility via CDR, you should not have access to so much damage. Obviously, not a dichotomy and I think there is a way to blur this a little bit, but I think this should be the centering of that decision process. > I don't think you should be able to buy both at the same time. If you want to be tankier, you should give something up. If you want to deal damage, you should give something up. Yep. Like what I said above, in the exact same fashion, really. More utility? Less damage. More damage? Less utility. Why does Ryze or Akali have both and get to lean into both, as an example? > For this reason, I'm honestly not comfortable with having Death's Dance being allowed on anyone other than Melee with its current design and numbers. If the game is ever slowed down, ranged will abuse this item to no end, possibly combined with Blood Thirster, since they don't share unique passives and they should, to guarantee they don't get bursted, while sustaining absurd amounts, probably abused with Lethal Tempo and crit itemization, and shit like Yuumi's new E. Although this is unlikely to end up being the case, the room is still there for extremely apparent abuse cases. The only reason it doesn't happen right now is because rushing the highest possibly damage is what makes you relevant, and is what 90% of champions are balanced around now. Thankfully the item isn't being poached right now due to the meta by those champions (Except perhaps conqueror katarina players), but I agree(As long as Urgot can still build it!). Why do Ranged champs Bloodthirster and Death's Dance? Especially problematic when considered with the damage-over time modifier of DD that offer surviability. Sure, that kind of build takes away from Crit options and slows your build down as a ranged champ, but as you said, if the game was slower, this wouldn't be such a problem. > I think almost all itemized damage actives/passives should be removed or not scale on ANYTHING other than possibly the buyer's level or minions/monsters. Cough looking at your Deathcap. > Spellblade from Trinity is broken and needs to be toned down to be less about bursting someone down and more about sustained damage over the course of a fight by users that can consistently proc it again: change it back to 150%. Also, its too much of a "ball of stats" item now. They added 15% attack speed to it and 10% more CDR so they could use Stinger in its recipe. That needs to be undone as well. Change it back to recurve bow and make the final AD 30 (phage+recurve on-hit) instead of 25. This will allow the cost to be substantially reduced, while remaining a huge buy on the very large majority of users. A lot of champions just buy Sheen and forgo TF, skirting around the problem, unfortunately. I agree, most of those passives aren't particularly of use to its users besides maybe Nasus. > _________________ > > This game's itemization as a whole sucks and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up to enable champions, not simply scale them to absurd levels. This is one of the things tank itemization does amazingly well that pretty much every other category of itemization fails at. I wish this was what was being worked on this Pre-season, but sadly map color-changing gets people more excited at a glance.
: >Only downside I could posit is it seems Riot is unwilling or unable to incorporate those systems into the game (Cough looking at you AP Bruiser items!) Part of the problem with the concept of "AP bruisers" right now is{{item:3100}} and {{item:3089}}. These items alone, and even worse combined, turn any AP bruiser into an assassin. In what world is Ekko ever going to be an AP bruiser when Lichbane makes his E deal 90% AP + 175% base AD? Also, Riot is DEFINITELY unwilling to do the work to balance the common nuance of these champions.
Don't even get me started on the damage creep of the game and how anything with AP or mobility has become a one-shot kill assassin. AP items are on my top 5 things of the game that make absolutely no sense to me. Why do AP champions have so much gold effienciey? Why do AP champions get access to so many different answers? Why does Zhonya's have CDR and cost so little? Why does every single AP champion have access to such easy damage? Why does Akali and Katarina get arguably the most gold efficient and powerful power spike in the game? Why is there a binary of most AP items to either do incredible damage or counter any counter-building being done if not both? Meanwhile, Death's Dance and Trinity force continue to be some of the least gold efficient items in the game, and tank itemization struggles. Ah yes...Ekkko...the pinnacle of "balanced" game design. So much "fun" to play against. Meanwhile, Sylas continues to be useless and Yuumi having zero counterplay.
: > [{quoted}](name=Raffyk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gz6UvPHg,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-07T06:27:36.370+0000) > > Please don't strawman me. I never said that Conqueror shouldn't be nerfed. I don't think this nerf sets out to do in entirety what it was meant to. By and far ranged casters and AP champions have been the one abusing the rune in its current form, but the current change doesn't impact a great deal of those AP champions that still benefit from the higher AP/AD ratio the current AF gives, when combined with the fact that most top-laners have a harder time getting efficient MR than Armor. Why not reduce the proc time on ranged champs, or decrease the AP? It doesn't set out to do what its supposed to. Its problem isn't that its too strong on AP champions, even. Its only problematic on AP champions that stack it too easily. Even nerfing the duration doesn't change those cases. Those specific champions need changes. If they nerf Conqueror like they're looking to, they'll simply stop using it...and with the exception of Azir, most will still be played just as much, and prove just as problematic, albeit in slightly different ways. Another change they could make to it is reducing the AD/AP until certain thresholds, scaling up to full value by level...idk 6/11/16/18? Or...you know, actually nerf the champions that deserve nerfing. > I believe you are using a false equivalency logical fallacy with your ignite comparison. What if we had an imaginary version of conqueror where the adaptive force gave 20 AD, or 3 billion AP. All of the mages using it would probably become very very powerful because of their kit interacting with the rune. Tell me, what is the better balance decision to fix that problem, changing said imaginary Conqueror to have a max damage cap of 1 damage, or reducing the AP? Imagine how impacted the AD users of that version of the rune would be, even if it would bring the mages more in line? Is that a good balance decision, even if it brings inline the abusers of the rune? If a champion was overturned with ignite giving them too much damage with their kit, couldn't one just nerf the champions kits that are benefitting too much from the summoner spell instead of bringing everyone down? If one champion is broken around an item, but no others are, to me it would make more sense to adjust the champion around the item instead of the other way around. Ah, the thing here is that I'm following the logic that Riot's using which is not necessarily the best solution. It takes more work to balance specific champions rather than a common factor affecting those champions...so guess what Riot's going to do, regardless of how many champions that don't deserve it get nerfed. They shouldn't do it, but that's what they do. > As I addressed in my post, and in other comments, wouldn't it be easier to just make Urgot not classified as a Ranged Champion? Wouldn't it be much less complicated to keep the champion at the same balanced pace he has been with the rune in its current state? Wouldn't it be easier just to add a line saying he cannot build Hydra or Sterak's, much like Ezreal cannot build two Tears? Can you explain to me how that is NOT equivalent to a compensation buff? Making that specific change to Urgot opens a whole other can of worms for Riot to shove up the ass of new releases. New ADC champion's Passive: can use melee itemization despite being ranged. Riot: "WOW WE HERE AT RIOT COME UP WITH GROUNDBREAKING IDEAS EVERY DAY. WE'RE SO SMART. LOOK HOW ORIGINAL THIS CHAMPION IS." Tbh, I don't see why you couldn't just add a line saying he gains melee benefits from itemization/effects at 10% reduced effectiveness or something, following where you're going, though. Its a much simpler way to explain what you're trying to. Maybe even allow him to buy hydra or sterak's, again, maybe at reduced effectiveness. Its not like Hydra would be broken on him, since it deals 33% damage with his W.
I think we've come to a lot of common ground, and I agree with every point here as you stated. Many of those champions really ought to just be reworked/nerfed. which it just seems Riot refuses to do in an effective way. Ryze will still be problematic, even with the Q nerf. His kit needs to just be reworked, much like others that are causing problems. Riot doing the more effective, long-term healthy option that requires more work? Pf let's just add Elder Execute and Drake Souls instead. 5head. Your last point is probably the best suggestion I've seen. I think something along that line would really fix the weird limbo the champion faces where he cannot use ranged items in his kit, but gets nerfed around how ranged champions are abusing ranged items and abilties. Forgot about the Hydra AOE reduction, fair point as well. Thanks for your comments friend. I appreciate the Devil's Advocacy and unique suggestions. See you in the top lane hopefully.
: > [{quoted}](name=Raffyk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gz6UvPHg,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-07T06:11:31.581+0000) > > Responding to your edit: > > I have previously said and HEAVILY agree with you (Even hinted at this in my "very long post"), that I don't think the right way to go about the Conqueror problems is nerfing it for everyone instead of targeting the champions that are heavily abusing it because of their kits. Katarina, Akali, Mordekaiser, Garen, Nocturne, are all great examples of champion that win-rates have skyrocketed because of the new Conqueror (Into the nerfing-needed territory) without being affected by this current change. > > Alright, compensation buffs might be a good idea. Personally, I think it's a little riskier than just making him a melee character that can't build Hydra/Sterak's, because there might be an unintended over buff, but I think you are right that compensation buffs might be an effective option. Thanks for changing my mind on that a bit. My only counterpoint is I feel what Urgot currently is very balanced around is the healing, and I'm not sure how a compensation buff could fill that void in his kit with the current nerf. Any ideas? I mean, I've advocated for adding a third "mid-range" classification to separate from the binary melee/ranged categorizations. Mid-range would either have their own itemization (possibly usable by melee, depending on function), be allowed to use melee and ranged itemization (possibly at increased/reduced effectiveness), or gain a small additional benefit from general itemization (think Vladimir passive). This would be a good way to allow certain champions to function as a 'brusier' while being ranged, albeit in between "true" ranged champions and melee champions. Reducing Jayce, Gnar, Urgot, Vladimir, Swain, Ryze, etc etc all to a certain range or under would force them to much more interactive in lane, while also giving them the means to be effective in teamfights, and allow them to be more powerful early because they'd be at greater risk to melee champions. Instead of being forced to be an assassin, effectively, they might be able to act as actual AD/AP 'battle mages'. Nobody likes that you have to play Vlad as an assassin right now. Nobody likes that Jayce is basically an assassin right now. And so on and so forth. A solution needs to be made, and I don't see major drawbacks to adding a 3rd classification and fitting certain problematic "pseudo-ranged" champions to conform to its classifications and balance around it. > Your last point is interesting, have no clue how that would work out. How would that work with someone like Aatroox, in your opinion? Aatrox's Q is coded as 3 separate abilities, isn't it? Pretty sure he wouldn't be affected. I'm talking more like Irelia Q resets, Kat, Ryze EQ, Azir soldiers, which are coded as spells, etc. In cases like Aatrox, you could simply change it to be coded as 3 separate spells if its not already. Think Lee Sin Q1/2 and such.
This is a fantastic comment dude. I agree with you heavily. In my opinion, this is probably the very best way to go about it. Making all of those champions more interactive and able to be traded with by melee champions is a must. Thanks for bringing those points up, I'll have to keep those in mind. I think nuance that takes into perspective all of the champions around an item/rune/class is always going to be the better option. Only downside I could posit is it seems Riot is unwilling or unable to incorporate those systems into the game (Cough looking at you AP Bruiser items!) With what you mentioned, in that case, that could perhaps work. Especially for the ability spam champions that so abuse the rune like Ryze/Cass/Azir. Good idea.
: You're acting like Riot is targeting Urgot, and that they shouldn't nerf Conqueror, which probably deserves to be nerfed, because Urgot doesn't deserve nerfs. That's not how it works. Look at how many champions used Ignite in the past. Did many non-problematic champions use ignite? Yes. Did they get nerfed by its nerf? Yes. Would anybody have been able to justify not nerfing Ignite due to that? NO. If it hits him too hard, he'll get compensation buffs probably. That's what you should be worried about. Riot isn't going to abandon the idea of nerfing Conqueror because one user of it isn't out of line.
Please don't strawman me. I never said that Conqueror shouldn't be nerfed. I don't think this nerf sets out to do in entirety what it was meant to. By and far ranged casters and AP champions have been the one abusing the rune in its current form, but the current change doesn't impact a great deal of those AP champions that still benefit from the higher AP/AD ratio the current AF gives, when combined with the fact that most top-laners have a harder time getting efficient MR than Armor. Why not reduce the proc time on ranged champs, or decrease the AP? I believe you are using a false equivalency logical fallacy with your ignite comparison. What if we had an imaginary version of conqueror where the adaptive force gave 20 AD, or 3 billion AP. All of the mages using it would probably become very very powerful because of their kit interacting with the rune. Tell me, what is the better balance decision to fix that problem, changing said imaginary Conqueror to have a max damage cap of 1 damage, or reducing the AP? Imagine how impacted the AD users of that version of the rune would be, even if it would bring the mages more in line? Is that a good balance decision, even if it brings inline the abusers of the rune? If a champion was overturned with ignite giving them too much damage with their kit, couldn't one just nerf the champions kits that are benefitting too much from the summoner spell instead of bringing everyone down? If one champion is broken around an item, but no others are, to me it would make more sense to adjust the champion around the item instead of the other way around. As I addressed in my post, and in other comments, wouldn't it be easier to just make Urgot not classified as a Ranged Champion? Wouldn't it be much less complicated to keep the champion at the same balanced pace he has been with the rune in its current state? Wouldn't it be easier just to add a line saying he cannot build Hydra or Sterak's, much like Ezreal cannot build two Tears? Can you explain to me how that is NOT equivalent to a compensation buff?
: >Average Play: A champion might need a nerf if their win rate is 54.5% when combined with a ban rate that is less than the global ABR (~7%), or if >their win rate is at about 52.5% with a BR of 5 times that of the global ABR. > >Skilled Play: A champion might need a nerf if their win rate holds at 54% whilst having a ban rate less than that of the global ABR, or if their win rate >sits around 52% at whilst having a ban rate around 5 times higher the global ABR. > >Elite Play: Due to the low sample size of games, a champion is considered too strong at this level of play if their Banrate gets into the 45% size. > >Pro-Play: A champion is considered nerf-worthy at the Professional Level if their presence on the current Patch is 90% or an 80% presence with >consecutive patches. > >So now that we have defined the objective measurements Riot has stated they will use to balance champions to, let's examine Urgot's >performance in regard to each of these categories and their requirements to determine if Urgot really does require a major nerf. All stats are >pulled from U.gg. > >Urgot in Average Play: Global- 52.88% WR, 3.5% Pick Rate, and 2.9% Ban Rate. >Urgot in Skilled Play: Global- 52.50% WR, 2.6% Pick Rate, and 1.5% Ban Rate. >Urgot in Elite Play: Global- 0.1% Ban Rate (With a 49.76 Percent Winrate if you are curious, even though that doesn't apply to the metric Riot uses >at this level of play) >Urgot in Professional Play: Data N/A due to Pre-Season. Was similar if not even less well-performing in Pro Play of Season 9 when compared to >Elite Play of current. You spent a good amount of time explaining why Riot shouldn't be targeting Urgot with nerfs. And they aren't. I'm not being rude by pointing that out. TBH, he probably will get compensation buffs for this...but that doesn't change that the portion I quoted above, which is a good 1/3 or so (after you include the Riot quotes I left out) of your very long post , is kind of pointless. ____________________ You should be asking for compensation buffs, not saying that Urgot doesn't deserve nerfs so they shouldn't nerf Urgot (Conqueror), or whatever. There are a lot of champions being hit by the Conqueror changes when only a select few champions using it actually deserve nerfs, and should be the ones targeted. Especially considering most of the abusers have some reset mechanism or extremely low CDs...which they could add an additional rule for. Hell, an internal per-ability CD would fix a lot of the issues, melee champs included {{champion:55}}.
Responding to your edit: I have previously said and HEAVILY agree with you (Even hinted at this in my "very long post"), that I don't think the right way to go about the Conqueror problems is nerfing it for everyone instead of targeting the champions that are heavily abusing it because of their kits. Katarina, Akali, Mordekaiser, Garen, Nocturne, are all great examples of champion that win-rates have skyrocketed because of the new Conqueror (Into the nerfing-needed territory) without being affected by this current change. The point of explaining Riot's metrics for nerfs, is as Riot has stated, a way to hold them accountable to changes they make to the game. I disagree that just because they are not changing Urgot's kit in a patch note, that he is not, and I stress, unintentionally being targeted with a nerf. I think the metrics they use to see if a champion or class of champions is overturned are useful to provide an argument for why a champion should not be directly or indirectly nerfed. Is it really fair to call much of my "very long post(One that I worked hard on to make a fair attempt at addressing something I care about with the brevity I feel it deserves)" useless when I'm attempting to foster a conversation on how Urgot can be better balanced with this change coming to the game, even if the conversation proves something like a compensation buff would be better? Setting that aside, compensation buffs might be a good idea. You bring a fair point put together. Personally, I think it's a little riskier than just making him a melee character that can't build Hydra/Sterak's, because there might be an unintended over buff, but I think you are right that compensation buffs might be an effective option. Thanks for changing my mind on that a bit. My only counterpoint is I feel what Urgot currently is very balanced around is the healing, and I'm not sure how a compensation buff could fill that void in his kit with the current nerf. Any ideas? Your last point is interesting, have no clue how that would work out. How would that work with someone like Aatroox, in your opinion?
: how about a change like this: whenever urgot attacks an enemy within 200 range, his attack becomes melee oriented. This would allow him to build items like titanic hydra and open up his build path, without making him overly broken with long ranged attacks proccing titanic hydra, and this would allow him to build good top lane items like steraks gage, and see if this makes him overly broken and nerf other parts of his kit if it does.
I think this is potentially a great way to do this. Wise to point out that if this over-adjusts him to touch the parts of his kit that would be doing that. Perhaps I would also add something like making his W not proccing things like Hydra, to be on the safe side. He isn't able to build any of the ranged items that Ranged characters use, he only gets access to a shorter list of the Juggernaut and Bruiser items? It doesn't make sense to me that he is nerfed around the ranged characters when he cannot utilize any of their items, stats, or gameplay strategies, whilst his equal Juggernaut compatriots get to just have a better Keystone and more items.
: >Average Play: A champion might need a nerf if their win rate is 54.5% when combined with a ban rate that is less than the global ABR (~7%), or if >their win rate is at about 52.5% with a BR of 5 times that of the global ABR. > >Skilled Play: A champion might need a nerf if their win rate holds at 54% whilst having a ban rate less than that of the global ABR, or if their win rate >sits around 52% at whilst having a ban rate around 5 times higher the global ABR. > >Elite Play: Due to the low sample size of games, a champion is considered too strong at this level of play if their Banrate gets into the 45% size. > >Pro-Play: A champion is considered nerf-worthy at the Professional Level if their presence on the current Patch is 90% or an 80% presence with >consecutive patches. > >So now that we have defined the objective measurements Riot has stated they will use to balance champions to, let's examine Urgot's >performance in regard to each of these categories and their requirements to determine if Urgot really does require a major nerf. All stats are >pulled from U.gg. > >Urgot in Average Play: Global- 52.88% WR, 3.5% Pick Rate, and 2.9% Ban Rate. >Urgot in Skilled Play: Global- 52.50% WR, 2.6% Pick Rate, and 1.5% Ban Rate. >Urgot in Elite Play: Global- 0.1% Ban Rate (With a 49.76 Percent Winrate if you are curious, even though that doesn't apply to the metric Riot uses >at this level of play) >Urgot in Professional Play: Data N/A due to Pre-Season. Was similar if not even less well-performing in Pro Play of Season 9 when compared to >Elite Play of current. You spent a good amount of time explaining why Riot shouldn't be targeting Urgot with nerfs. And they aren't. I'm not being rude by pointing that out. TBH, he probably will get compensation buffs for this...but that doesn't change that the portion I quoted above, which is a good 1/3 or so (after you include the Riot quotes I left out) of your very long post , is kind of pointless. ____________________ You should be asking for compensation buffs, not saying that Urgot doesn't deserve nerfs so they shouldn't nerf Urgot (Conqueror), or whatever. There are a lot of champions being hit by the Conqueror changes when only a select few champions using it actually deserve nerfs, and should be the ones targeted. Especially considering most of the abusers have some reset mechanism or extremely low CDs...which they could add an additional rule for. Hell, an internal per-ability CD would fix a lot of the issues, melee champs included {{champion:55}}.
You're wrong about the entire above statement although I hope he will get a compensation buff. Is the Conqueror change a nerf to any ranged champions that use Conqueror? Yes. Is Urgot currently considered a ranged champion? Yes. Does the Conqueror change negatively adjust Urgot's power level? Yes. Does Urgot meet any of the requirements set by Riot to have their power level reduced? No. Thus, there is no reason according to the metrics that Riot uses to adjust champions. It does not matter that the patch note doesn't say "Urgot is being adjusted by decreasing Conqueror's effectiveness on him", it's still a nerf to the champion. 3/3 of your very short post, is kind of pointless.
Pyrosan (NA)
: I've proposed ideas for Urgot in the past too, my main recommendation for Urgot would be giving him a max AS limit and then any excessive limits would be converted into AD Would open pathways for Trinity force which could be huge for Urgot but he can't utilise 1100 gold worth of it, BORK and Guinsoo also out of the table but it's not really limited for another other ranged user lol
Quite strange how his entire kit has next to zero ways of utilizing any of the items that are for ranged champions, but yet is considered a ranged champion and gets balanced around their items and stats...
: The Conqueror changes aren't aimed at Urgot. So...idk what this thread is really trying to accomplish. You should have made a thread threatening their firstborn if Urgot doesn't get compensation buffs instead.
Did you even read my post? I don't think you understand anything I am talking about. The problem is that even though the Conqueror change isn't aimed at Urgot, it nerfs him harder than any other champion that is aimed by the Conqueror nerf! Perhaps it is trying to accomplish the fact that he has none of the positives of being a ranged champion, while having all of the negatives of one, and continues for no reason to be nerfed along with this metric. I've shown in this thread that Urgot does not meet a single criterion according to Riot to be nerfed, yet he is being nerfed. Why? And wouldn't it easier to just make him the melee champion he plays exactly like and keep him at his normal win rate/pick rate/ban rate instead of introducing the headache of a buff that may push him in the wrong direction? You don't have to be rude, my friend. This is the place to talk about balance for the game, and I'm expressing my thoughts. No hard feelings if Riot doesn't fix this in my opinion will just make the game less fun for no reason in my opinion. Just trying to offer what I think would help the game be the best it can be.
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