: Ah. That's one thing I forgot - Fight as a team. Yeah. ADCs lose most 1v1s. Even against classes they supposedly counter. Unfortunately, he didn't have much of a team (Yasuo was AFK and he had an Akali support - the perils of that low ELO, I guess).
And while some ADCs are duelists ({{champion:145}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:236}}) a lot aren't and people seem to think they can duel fights they shouldn't be in. Everyone always underestimates the tank coming at you. Squishies forget what squishy really means half the time (though when they have sustain they can usually get away with it).
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=YoRHa Mike,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6EUEp6nX,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-10-27T21:45:35.358+0000) > > I'm assuming this is for top lane tanking; > > {{champion:14}} Has his W passive giving him free HP and Overgrowth, big tanky boy, but Q can be hard to land and without ulti > > {{champion:516}} Free money, really hefty resistance stick, plus scales with resistance on E, good engage and utility. > > {{champion:31}} Free HP on Feast Stacks, Silence is super good later when everyone is spamming spells and Q for pick potential. Cho'Gath isn't a tank, he's a Juggernaut. Sion isn't a Tank, he's also a Juggernaut.
Vanguards: Alistar Amumu Mega Gnar Gragas Leona Malphite Maokai Nautilus Rammus Sejuani **Sion** Zac Sion is a tank. His title "Undead Juggernaut" is just a champion title, not his class.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E2mpAHfv,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-27T20:40:16.904+0000) > > Honestly if Riot stopped trying to balance tanks around going top and shifted them all to support and jungle, this problem would come up less. > > But jungle tanks are...the meta isn't forgiving. Yes and no. FIrst of all why shouldnt tanks go top? I prefer my tanks without being tied to someone or having to play pve with an occasional gank. And most importantly, in both roles tanks have less income (unless they get ahead). Meaning they wont be as tanky as top laners would normally be. Do you really want your frontline to scale slower AND less than damage? I mean it already does but at least at top they can make use of that less expensive items since they have a good income. As such they spike at mid game and start falling off as the game goes.
Don't get me wrong, I like my top lane tanks. Sion, Ornn, and Poppy are my favorites. I'm just fucking tired of Bruisers bitching whenever they suddenly can't faceroll lane against tanks. It's frustrating because I want tanks to be able to actually win trades, but not in the sense that they just face roll. But they usually can't, and bruisers basically get a free lane unless the tank's jungler comes to help. And being reliant on someone else to win lane is goddamn infuriating.
: > [{quoted}](name=RegardsKitty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E2mpAHfv,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-27T14:02:50.812+0000) > > No, tanks being tanks and not doing massive damage is how they should be. People here seem to think that tanks are only viable when they can 1v1 any other class. Yes and no. You see in a pvp game a tank in order for it to become target for the enemy is to generate a form of threat. One way is to have tanks deal damage but only through some conditions. Ornn's brittle, sion's w and q. Maokai's e close to bushes, malp's spells scaling with armour etc. The other way is through buttloads of cc (or utility). Stuff like ornn having his e at 5 (rank 5) second. Ofc riot takes the former path. No matter which path you are in for some problems. Damage means that tanks can 1v1 fighters under some circumstances. Lots of cc leads to cases where the enemy wont be able to play even they have tenacity. That also means that tanks cant do jack shit in lane (thx to low damage) and vice versa fighters cant teamfight thanks to the tanks superior no stop cc.
Honestly if Riot stopped trying to balance tanks around going top and shifted them all to support and jungle, this problem would come up less. But jungle tanks are...the meta isn't forgiving.
: Yes, those items do exist. Black Cleaver is viable, but if Ornn has around 200 armor, Black Cleaver will only negate 48 armor. Furthermore, if a bruiser is forced to buy a last whisper, it will take them even longer to reach items like black cleaver, trinity force, ravenous hydra, deaths dance, etc. By the time they will be finished with their first item, lanes will already have begun to roam, and the bruiser will need to have armor, health, and magic resist so that he can do his job as a bruiser.
If you're rushing Last Whisper before your core than you have already fucked up completely.
: About 1/2 of those are bruisers and its not an ornn problem its a tank problem, any tank with grasp out tanks and dmgs you while autoing you to death, see the earlier tank meta of {{champion:57}} autoing a {{champion:24}} to death. But for a tank main that seems reasonable i guess
I mean, in lane {{champion:24}} should be bullied anyway because of how hard he scales.
: How do you hurt ornn when he gets his 150 armor on fb without true dmg? So misinformed
{{item:3035}} and upgrades. Also {{item:3071}}.
: Also, if he ends up being a steady problem in proplay, he could simply lose his E negating turret shots damage. I have a feeling that what's feared more in proplay is Pantheon's diving potential, and not his lane bulling or map presence with ult
That is what's feared more about Pantheon, his diving potential. I think the world's patch isn't the one where his MR was nerfed. I could be wrong.
: petition sunfire cape and cinderhulk has 10% cooldown
No. We don’t need more CDR. We need other classes to have less imo.
: The highest base, and scaling HP of any champion, and 130 motherfucking base armor, over 30 armor higher than the average of all TANKS, and over 15 armor above the next closest champion. By base stats alone he has between 40-50% higher pEHP than any tank in the entire game.
Yeah because tanks are supposed to build their defenses while Pyke is supposed to be building AD.
: I don’t see a universe where Pyke is ever reasonable. He will always be too safe.
Imo the reset timer on his ult is too long for how big the thing is.
Jaspers (EUW)
: Xerath: Instead of autoing to get some mana back he absords mana and energy expelled by enemy champs to get mana. Fitting in with his energy being theme, he takes part of what they use to rechange himself. You can run him dry by not using abilities but due to it's range he would need to be closer than usualy to get it's benefits. Rek'Sai: Just add a HP scaling to it. 190 at level 18 when she could have 3000 HP is only just 6% and she's usually out of combat, while Mao'Kai absorbs 13% or more while in the middle of combat, that's 400 with an auto and again soon after depending on how many hit's he's taken.
Wouldn’t that make him difficult to push out of lane as a Mage or as someone with ability harass?
: hashinshin is right about tank
Or, and this might sound crazy, lower the amount of CDR provided by AD and AP items.
: well, those that can't make use of {{item:3001}} usually either rush {{item:3751}} into an mr option or {{item:3211}} into {{item:3068}} /{{item:3025}} vs magic damge, which feels really bad as you are forced into a component befor building another item.
What tank can't make use of {{item:3001}}? The only tank that comes to mind is Poppy because she doesn't have much magic damage, whereas every other tank has enough magic damage to make it worth it (even Sion who has a lot of AD in his abilities). And even if they can't use abyssal, they can rush Visage.
: Then we have to ask the more pressing question. Why is {{item:3193}} Gargoyle Stoneplate not good enough?
Because resistances aren’t actually that good past a certain point and reducing your damage doesn’t encourage buying it imo.
Sukishoo (NA)
: Yeah. It gives 30 magic resist. Of course if they are able to use the complete item they get more; 35 MR, 50AD and 10% life steal, so it is far from making anyone weak.
But it forces them to delay another item or weaken their overall build by avoiding items that can grant more power.
: > [{quoted}](name=heroikc,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U5osgiN4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-10T20:04:13.973+0000) > > I'm glad I'm not the only one to think this, but I'd rather nerf damage so that it allows tanks to do their job, but would be enough to mop mages and carries as intended. I would only ONLY like this change if it meant juggernauts can’t build ONE item and be a assasin to a adc. I agree with you that they die too easy. But it can go grossly and horrifically wrong in the way that a Garen can build yomuus and be a assasin with 3-4K health. Take damage away and give health but I would much rather get blown up in 4 seconds than have a “I cc lock you now, and now I pound you into submission” as your mental go boom from being both outclassed in damage and health by a juggernaut. Sorry but unless they change the damage on juggernaut items I would just rather not:(
To be fair, everyone but supports can kill an ADC quickly if they don’t have sustain. Supports can’t because their base damage is probably the lowest.
puśsý (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:21:33.288+0000) > > A big strength to tanks is that they don't have a powerspike item that need to rush in lane. Do you know how fucking awful it feels when you're behind on someone like Darius, and you're still stuck building your core while your laner has two items on you? > > Tanks don't need to get fucked harder. Why would tanks get fucked harder if they spent 3k+ gold on a non-rush item that actually made them tanky? Spend more gold for a better item, be rewarded.
Probably because tanks in lane aren’t likely to get a 3k gold item at the same time as someone building triforce or BC. This would only put the tank further behind.
: i'd say {{item:3068}} or {{item:3025}} are items you need to rush in lane, else your wavecontroll just sucks. Some can go {{item:3001}} aswell, but one of those is mandatory on sololane tanks to have the needed waveclear.
Right, but you rush one or the other depending on your match up. It’s not like you’re rushing BC regardless of your opponent for a spike.
: Then build armor for lane and build the major item 2nd or 3rd. The thing with such cheap items is that tank builds scale worse into late game because of the total gpld value of their build
Then by that logic, we already have that item. It’s called Stoneplate.
puśsý (NA)
: What tanks need
A big strength to tanks is that they don't have a powerspike item that need to rush in lane. Do you know how fucking awful it feels when you're behind on someone like Darius, and you're still stuck building your core while your laner has two items on you? Tanks don't need to get fucked harder.
Baval (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Schenix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JaZwiXQf,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-09-10T18:41:47.435+0000) > > Old E was a damage threat with limited vulnerability. New E is survivability without real damage. > > The functions have changed. the old one did 300+300% bonus AD damage, the new one does 255+250% total AD damage, or 255+316% total AD with mortal will. The function hasnt changed that much. They just decided to remove pretty much all its counterplay by making it so you cant out damage him while hes doing it, cant stun him to stop him from doing it, and its difficult to walk out of since now he can move while doing it.
Walk behind him. He moves slower moving back so he can’t catch up.
: Its a damn magical martial art, pressurized wind knocking aside things that hit it makes more sense than a SHIELD, blocking a POOL on the ground. Shields don't block shit the are underneath you, behind you, beside you, anything of the sort. They block whats in front of you.
Yes, but it’s magic. Just like that martial art you said could generate wind walls to block earth fissures.
: you must not understand how powerful pressurized wind is lol. The lazer, ya, that's stupid, its just light. But ice shards would be knocked aside with strong enough wind.
Braum is shattering frozen earth. Yasuo, a normal person, is generating wind so strong that it can stop an earth fissure through a martial art. This is more acceptable thematically than a magic shield?
: I feel like Garen is a great example of what a top laner should be. Malphite good too. Garen and Malphite both have 51% win rate. High defense, damage, and no stuns. Yes Malph has a knockup, but that's an ULT move and still not a stun.
But they are also not every top laner. Most need stuns to fully finish their combos, and they can help later in teamfights. Another example of a no stun top laner is Tryndamere, who has terrible teamfighting and spends the game split pushing.
: yes lol. High pressure winds knocking aside projectiles makes sense. A dude blocking a pool of energy just cuz hes looking at the person who slapped it on the ground makes less sense to me
Windwall blocks thinks like braum ult and Jayce laser ball, things that thematically would not be stopped by high powered winds.
: I honestly believe stun moves are only good for supports or junglers. I think good top laners don't need stun and instead need defense and/or high damage instead. I also believe there are WAY better top laners than Pantheon, so I would never run him top lane.
Except a lot of top laners have stuns and utilize them a lot in their combos.
: Ya, Yasuos windwall blocks ground based projectiles, that makes sense. Windwall reaches all the way to the ground lol. His wall doesn't block things like Annie ult, Morg pool, anything of the sort that Pantheons can still block. And boots are a whole other topic. Asol can wear boots, when hes a cosmic dragon the size of a galaxy
So you’re saying that a wall of wind blocking physical projectiles makes more sense than a magic shield making the user immune to damage from targets he’s facing.
: with max cooldown items and max ranks, the cooldown for his moves gets pretty low. As for the meta, why can't he be a good support and good jungler? There are many champs that fit into multiple roles.
Because if he’s pushed to be balanced around his ability to support, his top and jungle will suffer because of it.
: yes, but it thematically doesn't make ANY fucking sense. Its a shield. A magic shield, but a shield nonetheless. It shouldn't be able to block anything he mentioned, as they deal damage from every direction around pantheon, NOT just the direction his shield is facing. It feels like an easy cop out for coding his E. Theres no reason it shouldn't be coded the same as Braums magical shield.
Yasuo’s windwall blacks ground based projectiles and boots make corki fly faster. Thematics mean nothing in the overall balance.
: I agree with everything stated above. However, remember that I main Pantheon **support**. You don't need to do killer damage, you just need to stun and survive so your ADC can get kills and win. As long as your E move absorbs all damage and lets you survive, we are good. And with low cooldowns, I can stun enemy again quickly and use E move again to be immune again. I only ask that you try pantheon support, you may like it. I think it could be a new meta for Pantheon to be support.
Your E isn’t a low cooldown. And I really hope not. I enjoy him as a jungler.
: Regardless, if you're a good player, you're jumping onto people who don't have those obvious counters. Usually you are jumping onto enemies with low defenses, or high-damage enemies because you need to knock them out first.
Sure, but you also can’t get out and aren’t immune to CC when using E. If Pantheon is using his E, he’s not doing much damage. He’s going to hurt early because he’s always hurt early.
: You usually spam all abilities when going in for a kill, so you will get empowered attacks. Damage immunity is most important in front as usually you will jump onto people and they will panic and blast everything at you. Most players aren't going to take the little time they have to walk around you. You will also have allies helping you and punishing enemies for trying to kite around you. It's usually much easier and faster to immediately spam your abilities straight at the enemy and hope you kill them, so the damage immunity should block it all. You are also forgetting that the enemy will be stunned and in front of you, so it's not easy to kite around. It's very difficult to counter someone who's jumping onto you with a stun move, takes a lot of prediction and fast reflexes. Maybe high elo players or pros can do it, maybe.
I’ve seen people in bronze do it. Pantheon’s W isn’t that fast.
: Is the new Pantheon rework OP?
Eh, his W is super easy to counter if you have any hard CC skillshots (Flay, Cho Q, hell even Alistar can stop it) so it’s not that great. Plus his damage immunity isn’t behind him, and he moves slower when backing during it so running around him (especially since the ability barely hurts) is pretty easy. As a support he’s not gonna get empowered abilities often because he shouldn’t be autoing minions and he’ll waste mana spamming abilities.
: Pyke’s regen needs a actual cost.
My only problem with Pyke is that the reset time between his ult is too damn high.
: > [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARTEbZ1E,comment-id=00020002000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-05T17:53:41.073+0000) > > It may not cost mana, but it has limitations that Leona/Braum/etc.'s defensive options don't: it only works out of combat, it doesn't reduce the damage he actually takes, and it's only for himself. He isn’t required to be out of combat. Only out of sight. So he can run into any bush and begin healing, or use his w. And I can already hear the argument “just ward the bush he goes into then.” {{item:3147}} is a core item on him And sure. It doesn’t reduce the damage he actually takes (that’s the job of his stupidly high base armor and base health) but it does give him the highest effective hp in the game by LARGE margins. Just for existing.
He’s not going to have Duskblade in lane, and his camouflage radius is huge.
Bultz (NA)
: Is thornmail ever going to actually have any fuckign affect against ranged adc?
: Take him bot lane he is like ez except his q is "melee"
Except Ez has ranged autos and can proc klepto with his Q alone. Whenever I play GP Klepto doesn’t proc his Q alone.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=CallMeAxel123,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tlr3Ak23,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T14:10:17.345+0000) > > dude you don't need brain to press E when u get ulted by zed or fizz, he could literally block your whole combo with his E Presses E to counter 1 ability Whole combo Pick 1. Also, why is the assassin targetting the pantheon?
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tlr3Ak23,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T14:52:41.121+0000) > > > > > > Also, why is the assassin targetting the pantheon? https://pics.me.me/i-do-not-know-i-dont-know-who-i-am-22479861.png
Bultz (NA)
: Orianna is doing way to much damage
AoE damage stacks up, just FYI. How many assists did she have and how many kills did her team get?
: League of instadeath
There's no way Vayne kills Sion in two seconds. Vayne needs to auto three times for her true damage. She kills quickly, but she's not bursting you.
: I agree that his was successful but i would argue that shaco's wasnt succesful but also wasn't reverted
: there is a reason almost every assassin from that rework got their shit reverted, because delayed burst has no place on an assassin. The only successful ones were katarina, not for delayed burst but because she now required a lot more skill to play and good kata players could really flex their skills. Fizz IMO was the best one because he required some amount of skill to play with timing the W procs which for me was one of the funnest mechanics. Rengar was a good idea to make his damage be aoe, but because they added dusblade an item he couldn't utilize it put him in a bad spot.
: The reason he isn't played in high elo is because: - Old Pantheon had a high impact early game, whether top, mid or jungle. Not many could withstand the Q spam or go for trades with him (melees i mean). - Jungle Pantheon specifically had a scary early since at any point he could walk into lane with his really high base MS and click target stun you. - New Pantheon doesn't really seem to have a strong point. I'd say his level 1 is his strongest due to Mortal Will with his Q. After that his other spells just have way too long of cooldowns while not outputting burst appropriate for those long cooldowns or having the means to survive the wait. - Not only does he not have his crazy early anymore, but he also doesn't scale that well either. Don't get me wrong, he scales decently, but even compared to "early game lane bullies" such as Renekton or Rengar he just gets hard outscaled. - Q spam is considerably less efficient in the early game. This is better for game health imo, but for Pantheon's viability it's a killer since he didn't really get anything to replace that early power.
Basically they weakened his early (which was needed) but didn’t really help him scale better. I like the rework but I’m seeing the same problems that lead me to stop playing him in season 5. Unless I’m stupid fed, I don’t have much impact in teamfights.
: From what I've seen His Q needs either better scaling or better base dmg and a slightly wider hitbox, it looks like His Q misses a lot when it looks like it should hit. Plus his damage is way too low for an earlygame champ.
Personally I’d like to see his ratios shift from bonus to base, allowing him to get more out of bruiser items like Steraks instead of him needing to build ghostblade to get a lot of damage. Unlike almost every ghostblade user (Every AD assassin, Jayce, GP?) Pantheon has no way to get out of a fight he’s engaged into. This was why I hoped his W would become a skillshot or something, but it is still point and click. Because of this lack of escape, he should be building a lot more durability if he wants to survive, but because he scales so poorly it was better to just build full AD and Kamikaze people. I’d like them to shift his ratios to base to let him scale a bit better. His top is a lot weaker and he hasn’t been given better scaling to compensate.
Glîtchy (NA)
: Why do yordles get the absurd mechanics?
: hasnt he always scaled like shit? that was the point of panth is to steam roll a lane get ahead or fall off hard and be a liability
Yeah idk why people are suddenly saying his scaling sucks now. It's always sucked. I used to main him when the new rune system appeared. He scaled like crap.
: The reason top lane is a quote unquote "conqueror fiesta" is that almost all of the most-picked champions in the lane don't actually have another keystone. What should Aatrox take other than Conqueror? PTA? Yeah, sure, and fall off harder than old panth in late. Grasp? Maybe, and there are matchups where you definitely want it over conqueror, but 99.9% of the time, you might as well just take conqueror. How about Riven? Press the Attack? With enough damage to kill you 3 times over in the early without ever once auto attacking you? How about Aftershock, since she has a lot of hard cc! Hmm... Well that doesn't actually do pretty much anything for you. Grasp? No, you lose out on even more than Aatrox does with PTA. What about Darius? If you're into a lane bully, maybe you could make a case for Grasp, but other than that, Conqueror is the only truly viable keystone. What about Irelia? Fiora? Renekton? On and on, the historically really popularly picked champions in the top lane game are only able to take Conqueror, because a lot of them are drain tanks (renekton, aatrox, darius, etc.) Or just don't actually have anything really more viable to take. Don't blame bruiser players for Riot only really giving us a single keystone.
Wait, why can’t Aatrox take electrocute? And does Renekton take PTA because of how easy he can proc it?
: I agree with many of those arguments, but I would like to add that his roaming is overstated. At level 6 pushing is not very fast, and evena slight mis prediction of ult can put your behind. Unlike jayce he cannot clear as fast nor have the advantage of absolutely ridiculous poke damage, that is good late game for sieging and pantheon's poke is only good when its doing execute damage, which is counterintuitive to poke which aims to get people low from full health. ALso his duelign late game is weak, because he effectively has no ultimate in an 1vc1, and other bruisers outright outsustain him before he egts a second combo, while are tanky enough to survive his first combo comfortably.
Eh, I find his clearing with empowered Q very strong for wave pushing late game, so I never have a problem pushing a wave (I don't even bother using E for pushing). His late game dueling has always been weak. He fell off super hard because his only real goal was to put people as far behind as possible. I do think that Riot should make his late a bit better, but I don't expect them to make him that much better of a duelist.
: "Pantheon has talon level damage" is a lie. Pantheon needs changes
I think turning his scalings to base from bonus AD is a good call. Pantheon can't function like an assassin as he has no real escapes (something that many divers have more than he does) and because his W is so easy to peel off, he has no way to get onto a carry in a teamfight. This usually leads to Pantheon getting blown up super quickly if he's built like an assassin, whereas assassins like Talon or Zed (though Talon is generally easier to catch) have better escape tools. Allowing Pantheon to get more out of building Bruiser can let him better fufill a frontline role and be the diver he's supposed to be. His builds arguably should be closer to champions like {{champion:164}} {{champion:254}} and {{champion:64}}, but all three of these have some form of in built defense mechanics in their kit that they get from attacking or on a reasonable cooldown (Vi and Camille have shields from attacking (I think Vi does anyway) and Lee has a shield with his dash, and Lee dashes a lot). Pantheon meanwhile only has his new E, which while powerful, is on a long cooldown (though I wouldn't ask to buff him there). The closest champion to Pantheon's actual build is Jayce, a champion that builds no sustain and packs quite a few lethality items. This is because Jayce rarely ever goes into melee unless it's for his combo (and while in melee he has ways to peel himself). Jayce also doesn't have sustain, but he can get away with building DD, whereas Pantheon I feel can't risk getting DD because he blows up too quickly. It should be a good item on him, but he rarely gets it. Pantheon's own lack of escapes imo is also a key reason why he falls off. Pantheon's split power is decent, but when two to three enemy champions meet his push he pretty much has to outrun them or all in and hopefully take someone with him. Now, forcing a bunch of people to answer your push is good, but more durable champions can do the same and last longer, or more mobile champions can do the same and live, preventing any real gain on for the enemy team. Assassin Pantheon is at best a 1 for 1 champion late game, but there are better options for that. Hell, I think Renekton is the best lane bully choice for scaling because of his lockdown, letting him act as a psuedo tank late game by jumping in, stunning, and jumping out with enough durability to survive.
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