Comentários de Rioters
: Teamfight Tactics patch 10.1 notes
Olaf seems to be bugged. Not sure if it was a heal debuff item or if it was the rage blade I put on him but he never got the lifesteal from his ult at 1 or 2 stars. There were a few matchups with heal debuffs and he didn't gain any kind of lifesteal back after the debuffs wore off
: I feel the problem is more olaf than anything. Ive seen olaf 1 v3 to 1v5(this vvas only once thankfully).... The problem is attack speed on glacial ruins the day. The other problem is olaf at gold is uncounterable and other champions are still beatable. So im going to concur, glacial buff should create a tile slovv on attack by percentage... Olaf vvill still be insanely OP but other glacials vvont be. My only issue is hovv to actually counter this offering of solution, and i havent thought of anything yet, im sorry.
A strong warden with thornmail/bramble vest is pretty much all you need but for other comps someone with morello's or red buff does the trick too.
: Teamfight Tactics patch 9.24B notes
Mages feel a bit overtuned especially mages like viegar who can double one shot multiple units later. Have you considered looking into ways to balance them out more so that 6 mage comps don't just instantly demolish teams once they get a couple mana items? and then there's Senna and Lucian...
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 13
Why are we still sticking with this Cloud Dragon??? ULT CDR is a ridiculous stat to give and several champions don't benefit from it at all. Elise, Nidalee, and Jayce get Negligible benefit from it and Shyvana is just now benefiting from it because you forgot her ult didn't have a cooldown so she get's a change unique to her. Transform champions rely more on the cooldowns for their basic 6 abilities more than their ult which simply shifts their form. On top of this Elise, Jayce, Nidalee, and Udyr have to deal with the fact that they never get to properly utilize Cloud Dragon Soul because it has a 30 second cooldown while their ult is a 5-3 second cooldown and triggered frequently. ULT CDR inherently lends itself to destabilizing the games that it's in because champions power budgets is built around their ults and almost every time a champion is overpowered the balance of that champion is almost always centered around their ult. Ult CDR breaks the game to urf levels of ridiculousness instead of actually opening up options. I propose that Cloud Dragon either give movement speed again instead of ult CDR or that it gives regular cdr that does not stack past 40%, Allowing it to give regular CDR would allow for champions to spec into different items that don't typically offer a vast amount of CDR and promote more item diversity. All the current Cloud Dragon promotes is stacking more CDR and CDR imo is a problem. CDR used to be more of an indulgence which a trade off of less damage for more spell uptime and was the choice for tank and bruiser builds but now it's an overly abundant option for everyone. Old items that worked on this idea are now no longer built because they have no way of competing with items that offer CDR with damage stats like Frozen heart which used to have it's stat counterpart in Randuins omen. Now as for the movespeed buff I don't think it should have an internal cooldown and it should be granted on any ability cast but at a much smaller value or alternatively act like the old red boot enchantment Furor where you get bonus movespeed for attacking with single target attacks or spells
: > [{quoted}](name=Sagee Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4wlmzwmT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-12-12T19:31:24.472+0000) > > That isn't even remotely as impactful as cloud dragons effect on ULT CDR. maybe if the ult CDR didn't stack with regular CDR to break the 40% CDR limit but some of these champions get absolutely 0 from the dragon buff and soul where as with all the other dragons you at least get a little bit from the dragon buff and souls. > > Infernal, Mountain, and Ocean souls scale off you AP and Bonus AD/HP which all champions are going to be able to scale into. > > If you have a champion without a real ult though Cloud Soul doesn't exist. and the ult CDR has next to 0 impact on a champion that has a non damaging ult with a next to non- existent cooldown vs someone like malphite that is going to maximize the cdr given by cloud to be come a team fighting monster > > I believe this guy put it rather well besides do you think riot isn't capable of making mistakes or massive oversights? If you don't build offensive items infernal does nothing for you. If you don't build defensive items, mountain dies nothing for you. Simple as that.
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4wlmzwmT,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T00:45:14.160+0000) > > If you don't build offensive items infernal does nothing for you. If you don't build defensive items, mountain dies nothing for you. Simple as that. > [{quoted}](name=Keiaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4wlmzwmT,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-13T01:29:31.991+0000) > > Fire is pretty worthless on tank and support champs that aren't building any offensive stats I believe this guy put it rather well besides do you think riot isn't capable of making mistakes or massive oversights? >nah man, that's a false equivalency. > >inferno scales worse for tanks, mountain scales worse for dmg dealers. > >but both scale for everyone. there is no champion that has no dmg or no defense. > >the accurate analogy is that champs with low CD ults scale less with cloud (10% of a 60s ult <10% of a 120s ult). > >similarily, although the amount differs between champs, everyone has health, so ocean as well does SOMETHING for everyone. > >cloud is the only drake that has the chance to give you 0 benefit if you're playing the wrong champ. >https://www.reddit.com/r/QuinnMains/comments/e9rym5/cloud_dragon_is_not_an_all_inclusive_dragon_and/falg22p?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp
: Gnar has a cooldown on his ult still.
> [{quoted}](name=BladeSteel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4wlmzwmT,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-13T00:48:06.847+0000) > > Gnar has a cooldown on his ult still. Almost seems a bit excessive to have a cooldown on that but now I know
: Everyone absolutely hates all of those champions, barring shyvanna when shes actually built to be a bruiser. I see no problems.
> [{quoted}](name=WoonStruck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4wlmzwmT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-12T19:41:00.688+0000) > > Everyone absolutely hates all of those champions, barring shyvanna when shes actually built to be a bruiser. > > I see no problems. and I see no relevance to your response
: you do know that infernal drake has the same issue for champions that don't build much, if any, AD/AP? and that mountain is also the same for those with little to no armor/MR right?
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4wlmzwmT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-12T19:20:36.028+0000) > > you do know that infernal drake has the same issue for champions that don't build much, if any, AD/AP? and that mountain is also the same for those with little to no armor/MR right? That isn't even remotely as impactful as cloud dragons effect on ULT CDR. maybe if the ult CDR didn't stack with regular CDR to break the 40% CDR limit but some of these champions get absolutely 0 from the dragon buff and soul where as with all the other dragons you at least get a little bit from the dragon buff and souls. Infernal, Mountain, and Ocean souls scale off you AP and Bonus AD/HP which all champions are going to be able to scale into. If you have a champion without a real ult though Cloud Soul doesn't exist. and the ult CDR has next to 0 impact on a champion that has a non damaging ult with a next to non- existent cooldown vs someone like malphite that is going to maximize the cdr given by cloud to be come a team fighting monster I believe this guy put it rather well besides do you think riot isn't capable of making mistakes or massive oversights? >nah man, that's a false equivalency. > >inferno scales worse for tanks, mountain scales worse for dmg dealers. > >but both scale for everyone. there is no champion that has no dmg or no defense. > >the accurate analogy is that champs with low CD ults scale less with cloud (10% of a 60s ult <10% of a 120s ult). > >similarily, although the amount differs between champs, everyone has health, so ocean as well does SOMETHING for everyone. > >cloud is the only drake that has the chance to give you 0 benefit if you're playing the wrong champ. >https://www.reddit.com/r/QuinnMains/comments/e9rym5/cloud_dragon_is_not_an_all_inclusive_dragon_and/falg22p?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
If you play Champions like Elise{{champion:60}}, Gnar{{champion:150}}, Jayce{{champion:126}}, Nidalee{{champion:76}}, Quinn,{{champion:133}}, Shyvanna{{champion:102}}, Udry{{champion:77}} and you don't like the way cloud dragon impacts them see here. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4wlmzwmT-cloud-dragon-is-not-an-all-inclusive-dragon-and-should-be-changed-to-fit-the-all-champions-better
Comentários de Rioters
AIQ (NA)
: It's there just as you said hyper ineffective. That's why I was saying make it flat values. Low CD ults, Kass Diana, Zoe. Whould be using it every 10-20 seconds which would be very OP on them. That's why it needs a CD, (could you imagine a perma 30% speed Kass?)
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZvsLLMEM,comment-id=002a00000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T14:38:39.474+0000) > > It's there just as you said hyper ineffective. That's why I was saying make it flat values. > > Low CD ults, Kass Diana, Zoe. Whould be using it every 10-20 seconds which would be very OP on them. That's why it needs a CD, (could you imagine a perma 30% speed Kass?) I personally think the ULT CDR given by wind dragon should be a regular 10% cdr per dragon that does not stack with item cdr. This would allow players to go alternate build paths where they get items that don't have cdr in them more often. Ult CDR is too strong and champions are balanced around their ult Cooldowns. High CDR items already cloud out non cdr items so much now that most new items include cdr in order to make them more attractive As for the movespeed buff I think it shouldn't have an internal cooldown and it should be granted on any ability cast but at a much smaller value or alternatively act like the old red boot enchantment Furor where you get bonus movespeed for attacking with single target attacks or spells This would make this bonus accessible to everyone
AIQ (NA)
: Don't think for a moment that I do not think it is not unfair, but all those except Quinn, do actually benefit, is it fair and noticeable no, but they do get 10-40% from their lock out. Udyr should have it applied to all his abilities. Shyvana though is supposed to be the dragon taking queen, yet literally does not use the dragon and her movement speed is applied once she ults rather than when she lands making it more lack luster. The only thing I can think of for the rest is. Quinn: Increase MVSPD by 5-10% per drake. I was thinking reducing her mana, but it eventually drops to 0 so Quinn is the one champion beside Shyvana that needs a unique effect outside of CD. Elise etc reduce lock out by a .5 seconds Udyr Apply to all, (That's 2.4+ any CDR That's actually good)
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZvsLLMEM,comment-id=002a000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-06T22:55:38.028+0000) > > Don't think for a moment that I do not think it is not unfair, but all those except Quinn, do actually benefit, is it fair and noticeable no, but they do get 10-40% from their lock out. > Udyr should have it applied to all his abilities. > > Shyvana though is supposed to be the dragon taking queen, yet literally does not use the dragon and her movement speed is applied once she ults rather than when she lands making it more lack luster. > > The only thing I can think of for the rest is. > Quinn: Increase MVSPD by 5-10% per drake. > I was thinking reducing her mana, but it eventually drops to 0 so Quinn is the one champion beside Shyvana that needs a unique effect outside of CD. > > Elise etc reduce lock out by a .5 seconds > Udyr Apply to all, (That's 2.4+ any CDR That's actually good) Actually none of them actually get the ult CDR(Unless I missed something or there was some hotfix recently) and none of them except shyvanna can activate the movement bonus. Like even if they could activate these bonuses all of them except shyvanna have ult cooldowns that are already so low that they wouldn't really notice the ult cdr and they'd be randomly be activating cloud soul when they didn't want to which also makes me wonder why it has a 30 second cooldown when it's only activated by ult usage.
AIQ (NA)
: 10 Fury per dragon when she transforms into human. That would literally be like 10% CDR.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZvsLLMEM,comment-id=002a0000,timestamp=2019-12-06T19:16:38.059+0000) > > 10 Fury per dragon when she transforms into human. That would literally be like 10% CDR. man just hop on the boat with the rest of us that don't get anything from cloud Dragon. Elise, Jayce, Nidalee, Shyvanna, Quinn, and Udyr got the shaft on those dragon changes. I personally think the soul and dragon bonus for storm should be changed all together. regular CDR that does not stack on top of other cdr from items and a smaller movespeed buff gained by attacking or casting any ability sounds more reasonable and more inclusive. giving 10% ability cdr would allow you to itemize more for stats you want without having to worry about cdr as much so you could skip a cdr item for a similar item that provides similar or better effects. I think a movespeed buff like the old boot enchantment Furor would be more reasonable than the current nimbus cloak effect we get now and it would be all inclusive where as current cloud ignores non-ult champs
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
I am personally not a big fan of this preseason. too many things were changed that have to do with the map. I feel like dragons were better when they just gave gold because everyone that got the dragon could effectively use the gold for whatever role/playstyle/matchup they wanted to. I know we aren't going to go back to a lump sum of gold but the current dragons are very inconsiderate of the champions using them and I believe there are a lot of changes due to be made to them. Storm Dragon buff and Soul for instance do absolutely nothing for champions without true ultimates. {{champion:60}}Elise, {{champion:126}}Jayce, Nidalee{{champion:76}}, Shyvanna{{champion:102}}, Udry{{champion:77}}, and I'm sure I missed others that get nothing from these effects. ULT CDR is really strong and personally I don't think it has any place on a dragon buff and the nimbus cloak idea while cool still basically ignores these champions and I personally think that is very poor and inconsiderate design on your part. How do their win rates look based on elemental dragons? I also don't think elder should have an execute or that dragons need to provide as massive of effects as they are currently giving and that if they are to provide they should be all inclusive rather than catering to specific champion types especially when the effects are largely based on an RNG mechanic. I have two suggestions for Storm Dragon and Elder I think should be considered: Storm drake should grant regular CDR that does not stack with other CDR options. This would allow champions to opt into other item choices that they would otherwise skip in favor of a similar item that grants CDR. The nimbus cloak effect should apply to regular abilities with no cooldown but grant significantly less movement speed or act like the old red boot enchantment that grants attackspeed for single target attacks. Just a general statement about all dragon bonuses: I believe they should grant bonuses to base and bonus stats rather than simply bonus stats so that champions not building those stats get some decent benefits from them still. Elder Dragon should be a mini ignite like burn once the target is below 20% hp rather than a full on execute. it should still provide a comeback escape chance for the opponent. I like how creative you are being with the elemental rift changes but if we're being honest you need more 5v5 rift style maps not dynamic shifts to the already existing map. The rift plants already kind of served this purpose and now that you've pushed the changes to the map with dragons you honestly have no reason not to have different maps for the same 5v5 game modes. I hope you read this and really consider what I've said. The game feels imbalanced and thrown into chaos which I expect from a preseason but this one feels exceptionally more chaotic than previous years. Side note it would be cool if we had more items in the game and especially so if there were more items that catered to particular champion types and niches. I feel like quite a few champions are forced to compete with items that are only the best choices they have because no other options exist. AP bruisers for instance don't really have good itemization and ultimately have to play a feast or famine game where they try to build as assassins.
: Are We Really Going To Start Another Season Without Addressing Damage Creep?
These dragon changes make more sense in a separate game mode not in the main ranked play map. Damage Creep and mobility creep are ridiculous and the amount of non-inclusive changes riot keeps tossing out. Elemental dragons honestly haven't had a place in the game for a while especially on a non-symmetric map when the dragons spawn via RNG. To top it off the dragons grant 3 separate effects. A map changing effect that while cool is still RNG and hurts a few champions kits or makes others drastically broken. More walls for Poppy, Vayne, Qiyana, more brush for rengar or less brush for Nidalee. Random dragons that grant buffs that barely provide anything to some champions while granting massive buffs to others and for a few nothing at all. Elise, Jayce, Nidalee, Quinn, Shyvana, and Udyr get nothing from ult cooldown. and even if they benefited from it the effects are nothing compares to champions like Malphite or Lux who have real ultimates getting ULD CDR. Cloud drake is horrible a design choice. Ocean Drake granting %hp regen makes mundo happy but if your hp pool is small it's negligible. Bonus damage or bonus armor and magic resist from infernal or mountain... do we really need more stat sticks? Lets not forget the dragon souls ahhh yes Cloud dragon... Elise, Jayce, Nidalee, Quinn, Shyvana, and Udyr get nothing from the ~~nimbus cloak~~ the cloud soul just like the old nimbus cloak I'm honestly going on a rant at this point but simply these changes alone show poor understanding of the games needs. Honestly the dragons before the elemental dragons were introduced were fine and hell the dragons that just gave gold were fine. they were more balanced than anything they've put in the game so far and they didn't discriminate as harshly as these do. That's honestly the biggest problem. The preseason changes discriminate heavily and are inconsiderate of a lot of champions, roles, and playstyles. The games pacing feels all out of whack and this feels worse than season 1 start release xin zhao Honestly we don't need Summoners rift to be constantly mixed up every season. We need new competitive 5v5 maps.
: If it's anything like the last one we had it wont be based on the champions being played. You pick a side and it gives you missions to do. The side with the most completed is the winner.
> [{quoted}](name=TheLastShadow45,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EdQK1pA9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-26T08:36:04.658+0000) > > If it's anything like the last one we had it wont be based on the champions being played. You pick a side and it gives you missions to do. The side with the most completed is the winner. still look at who is on what side
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 22
I'd like to point out that Nidalee is another one of those champions that has a split audience. She's horrible in lane and especially so now with her balance pushing her more and more to be a jungle and since she's been pushed into the jungle more and more champions have been released that just make laning her next to impossible. She doesn't have the base stats to survive a lot of engages nor the mana pool to sustain taking hits plus her Javelin Toss was made excessively small while maintaining the same speed. Pretty sure it is both the smallest and slowest single target skillshot in the game and all it does is raw damage. If that's how Javelin Toss has to be balanced then why aren't many other skillshots balanced like this? Raw damage is one thing but CC is an entirely different story and many skills that carry CC move just as fast or faster while doing nearly the same damage. Her heal costs more than most ultimates and barely heals anything unless you are really low on hp and that is counter intuitive to her kit since you never want to be low health. I would also like to make a point that it gives attackspeed but in her rework it's interaction with her kit was never explored and has basically become vestigial when her kit should have expanded on using it in some way, Nidalee is a very auto attack oriented champion after all. Her base stats were hit back in the era of masteries when we had Strength of the Ages and never given back fully and mana cost balancing has seen a different approach where it seems like most champions don't have to really manage their mana pools anymore. It would be nice to see things like this addressed. It would also be nice to see the act of using clunkiness as a balancing tool abandoned as that was another thing used on Nidalee which also if we're going to at least try to bring the idea of our characters alive in what world is a predatory Feline clunky? Clunkier than a woman carry a giant sword even? Nidalee has this problem now where she is a champion reliant on the cover of darkness or the element of surprise and she lacks anything in her kit that helps her get that kind of edge outside of clever use of fog of war, pathing, and allied CC. Javelin Toss is a horrid skill that misses a lot. Half the time it's because it's speed gives enemies too much of a generous window to dodge and the other half is because the hitbox is ridiculously small on top of it being bugged to pass right through units and most of the time we players can't even tell which is which, especially on flying targets. If you ever come around to touching Nidalee up please feel free to jump in the Nidalee mains sub-reddit and brain storm with us. https://dd.reddit.com/r/NidaleeMains/
: Patch 9.23 notes
Ah so we went ahead and went with that iteration of Cloud drake after all??? I'm hoping there's some solution in mind for champions like Nidalee, Jayce, elise, Udyr, and Quinn otherwise this is just another nimbus cloak effect we don't want and now we can't even avoid it. Horrible design if that's the case. We can't make use of the movement speed bonus or the CDR bonus Side note: You fixed a bunch of bugs with auto attack modifier abilities and that's nice. Can you fix the one that locks Nidalee cougar form out of auto attacking if the target dies mid takedown animation or goes into brush mid animation.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 15
I'd like to point out that Nidalee is another one of those champions that has a split audience. She's horrible in lane and especially so now with her balance pushing her more and more to be a jungle and since she's been pushed into the jungle more and more champions have been released that just make laning her next to impossible. She doesn't have the base stats to survive a lot of engages nor the mana pool to sustain taking hits plus her Javelin Toss was made excessively small while maintaining the same speed. Pretty sure it is both the smallest and slowest single target skillshot in the game and all it does is raw damage. If that's how Javelin Toss has to be balanced then why aren't many other skillshots balanced like this? Raw damage is one thing but CC is an entirely different story and many skills that carry CC move just as fast or faster while doing nearly the same damage. Her heal costs more than most ultimates and barely heals anything unless you are really low on hp and that is counter intuitive to her kit since you never want to be low health. I would also like to make a point that it gives attackspeed but in her rework it's interaction with her kit was never explored and has basically become vestigial when her kit should have expanded on using it in some way, Nidalee is a very auto attack oriented champion after all. Her base stats were hit back in the era of masteries when we had Strength of the Ages and never given back fully and mana cost balancing has seen a different approach where it seems like most champions don't have to really manage their mana pools anymore. It would be nice to see things like this addressed. It would also be nice to see the act of using clunkiness as a balancing tool abandoned as that was another thing used on Nidalee which also if we're going to at least try to bring the idea of our characters alive in what world is a predatory Feline clunky? Clunkier than a woman carry a giant sword even? Nidalee has this problem now where she is a champion reliant on the cover of darkness or the element of surprise and she lacks anything in her kit that helps her get that kind of edge outside of clever use of fog of war, pathing, and allied CC. Javelin Toss is a horrid skill that misses a lot. Half the time it's because it's speed gives enemies too much of a generous window to dodge and the other half is because the hitbox is ridiculously small on top of it being bugged to pass right through units and most of the time we players can't even tell which is which, especially on flying targets. If you ever come around to touching Nidalee up please feel free to jump in the Nidalee mains sub-reddit and brain storm with us. https://dd.reddit.com/r/NidaleeMains/
: Nidalee has both a lot of upsides and downsides in her current form. These are what I immediately think of, but of course I am sure there are many things in both categories that I have missed. Despite having a lot of PROS, there are a lot of CONS. I believe the current Nidalee to be feast or famine and toxic gameplay similar to how original Rengar was, but with a skill shot gimmick to land before bursting. PROS: * Spear moving slower than original speed allows for more counterplay/dodge-ability. * No longer moving backward for more damage after spear is thrown. * Traps are improved; They used to be slightly visible, but lasted a lot longer, had no health bar, and did more damage. They granted a lot farther vision and were pretty busted. You have real counter play against the current traps with vision control and the health bar. * The current state of Items (Rod of Ages, Athenes, Lich Bane, Ludens, Trinity Force, BOTRK, etc) gives the player a lot of flexibility on how they want to play Nidalee. * Nidalee combos are still present and are a lot of fun. * Animation Canceling still being present in her kit. * Pounce cooldown lowering on kill is fun and a rewarding skill for wave manipulation and jungle clear. * Auto attack reset being removed by switching forms was a bit unfair in melee vs ranged. CONS: * Hunt Passive on Jungle camps makes Lane Nidalee impossible to be viable without breaking Jungle Nidalee. * Closing the gap on a target with the Hunt requires no skill or pathing strategy * Missing Health Heal instead of a flat Heal makes laning Nidalee difficult. (Not to say heavy amounts of sustain in a kit is good, but making an ability useless isn’t good either). * Too much damage is loaded into Cougar Q versus targets with “Hunt mark”. It needs to be distributed around her kit. * Cougars are faster than people, Nidalee no longer gaining movement speed in cougar feels wrong thematically and the Hunt gives too much movement speed currently. * Current spear hitbox has been nerfed and does not accurately represent the model of the spear flying through the air. This is a problem with other champions such as Morgana’s Q or Lux’s R. Riot has fixed Blitzcrank Q as of recent. * The rework reallocated too much damage from Nidalee’s Spear (Q1) into her Cougar auto reset (Q2) and also made it an execute. Doing so resulted in damage being a bit too high from the cougar Q. This resulted in Q1 not feeling as satisfying landing it from long ranges, while Q2 seems much too strong and at times overkilling opponents. Killing enemy carries at 60% hp with simply Q2 and Hunt passive is much too strong. It’s nonsensical and not fair in terms of counterplay. * Nidalee's movement speed is too loaded into the hunt, she is incredibly slow in comparison to the rest of the champion roster for a cat. But when you have the hunt on somebody you cannot be outrun unless it is a Talon hopping over wall after wall.
> [{quoted}](name=Mid Nidalee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-05-13T01:43:01.649+0000) > > Nidalee has both a lot of upsides and downsides in her current form. These are what I immediately think of, but of course I am sure there are many things in both categories that I have missed. Despite having a lot of PROS, there are a lot of CONS. I believe the current Nidalee to be feast or famine and toxic gameplay similar to how original Rengar was, but with a skill shot gimmick to land before bursting. > > PROS: > > * Spear moving slower than original speed allows for more counterplay/dodge-ability. > > * No longer moving backward for more damage after spear is thrown. > > * Traps are improved; They used to be slightly visible, but lasted a lot longer, had no health bar, and did more damage. They granted a lot farther vision and were pretty busted. You have real counter play against the current traps with vision control and the health bar. > > * The current state of Items (Rod of Ages, Athenes, Lich Bane, Ludens, Trinity Force, BOTRK, etc) gives the player a lot of flexibility on how they want to play Nidalee. > > * Nidalee combos are still present and are a lot of fun. > > * Animation Canceling still being present in her kit. > > * Pounce cooldown lowering on kill is fun and a rewarding skill for wave manipulation and jungle clear. > > * Auto attack reset being removed by switching forms was a bit unfair in melee vs ranged. > > > CONS: > > * Hunt Passive on Jungle camps makes Lane Nidalee impossible to be viable without breaking Jungle Nidalee. > > * Closing the gap on a target with the Hunt requires no skill or pathing strategy > > * Missing Health Heal instead of a flat Heal makes laning Nidalee difficult. (Not to say heavy amounts of sustain in a kit is good, but making an ability useless isn’t good either). > > * Too much damage is loaded into Cougar Q versus targets with “Hunt mark”. It needs to be distributed around her kit. > > * Cougars are faster than people, Nidalee no longer gaining movement speed in cougar feels wrong thematically and the Hunt gives too much movement speed currently. > > * Current spear hitbox has been nerfed and does not accurately represent the model of the spear flying through the air. This is a problem with other champions such as Morgana’s Q or Lux’s R. Riot has fixed Blitzcrank Q as of recent. > > * The rework reallocated too much damage from Nidalee’s Spear (Q1) into her Cougar auto reset (Q2) and also made it an execute. Doing so resulted in damage being a bit too high from the cougar Q. This resulted in Q1 not feeling as satisfying landing it from long ranges, while Q2 seems much too strong and at times overkilling opponents. Killing enemy carries at 60% hp with simply Q2 and Hunt passive is much too strong. It’s nonsensical and not fair in terms of counterplay. > > * Nidalee's movement speed is too loaded into the hunt, she is incredibly slow in comparison to the rest of the champion roster for a cat. But when you have the hunt on somebody you cannot be outrun unless it is a Talon hopping over wall after wall. Pros * Spear being slower isn't a pro and Spear speed is exactly the same as it was pre-rework. the hit box is 1/3 the size it used to be. I personally think it should be a tad bigger and faster than it currently is. It's a single target damage ability not a massive CC ability which are the only abilities with projectile speeds this slow save for Javelin Toss but hey Morgana still has her massive ass hitbox and scaling on dark binding so why they hell did Javelin toss get hit in the size and damage department so hard? * moving backward for more damage ruined the idea of the hunt mechanic and going in with cougar and made poke Nidalee more desireable so this was definitely a good change * Traps are worse... far worse. The don't do damage and you can't use them for zoning anymore. They're glorified hunt markers that are almost only useful in the jungle. These used to be terrifying to step on as any player on the enemy team because they came with respectable damage and strong debuffs that would make tanks and squishies weep. Now it's just a red dot for the cat to chase * The current state of Items doesn't offer nearly as much flexibility as it should for a champion like Nidalee. We're absolutely reliant on runic echoes/ludens to do any kind of burst that other champions get naturally from their kits. * Auto attack reset being removed by switching forms was a bit unfair in melee vs ranged. Not a pro but agreed especially since out base attackspeed and our heal got hit as well. Primal surge heal got cut in half and was reliant on being low hp to get the full benefits and the cooldown was increased. This is a champion you never want to be low hp on and makes absolutely no sense. CONS: * I don't think Hunt passive makes it impossible to balance Jungle and Lane Nidalee together but I think they should be changed. Split hunt between two effects on her abilities. A damage effect and a utility effect. reserve the damage effects fro champions and the utility effects for everything else. Bring back attack resets on pounce and aspect of the cougar. * Closing the gap on a target with the Hunt actually does require a lot of skill. Enemies don't just let you mark them with hunt. What doesn't require skill is kha zix and Rengar jumping on you from out of no where and deleting you... There is a massive difference. * Missing Health Heal instead of a flat Heal makes laning Nidalee difficult and thios type of heal makes no sense on a champion like Nidalee who wants to stay as healthy as possible. * I don't entirely agree here on Too much damage is loaded into Cougar Q versus targets with “Hunt mark”. Takedown damage pre-rework was on average much higher since it just scaled up to 300% I think it should be less reliant on hunt for it's max damage and that hunt should offer some other effects towards boosting it's damage like penetration while making takedown a physical damage ability again and increasing it's old AD ratio back to where it used to be. * Cougars are faster than people, true and I definitely agree she should get movespeed in cougar but she does no get enough speed for what she's expected to do. She should be on par with WW and Hecarim when it comes to chasing people down but instead anyone with a slow can kite her to death and pretty much anyone with a movespeed boost can out run her or run her down. Nothing is more ridiculous than being run down by someone like Jax, Pantheon, Yi, or Nasus because they are innately faster and have some kind of sticking power while you are seemingly at a safe range. * Current spear hitbox has been nerfed and does not accurately represent the model of the spear flying through the air. This is a problem with other champions such as Morgana’s Q or Lux’s R. Riot has fixed Blitzcrank Q as of recent. * Javelin Toss damage is fine if it was more reliable meaning we could hit it more often without relying on the cover of darkness and the element of surprise. A lot of our engages require us to use stealth and completely fall apart without the element of surprise because it's so damn easy to dodge the slow moving needle size skillshot * Anyone with a slow or movespeed boost can outrun Nidalee especially since runic echoes lost it's movespeed buff, celerity go gutted, and boot enchantments were removed. Nidalee has average base movespeed and the hunt just makes it a little above average but the range at which you get the benefits of hunt are too damn short so one little slow and you no longer have your hunt movespeed boost. Give her back 10 bonus movespeed in cougar and reduce the hunt movepseed boost but increase the range and have the amount it gives increase based on how close to the target she is. You'll still be able to kite her but once you've given her too much ground only hard CC will shake her.
0 Hogapu (EUW)
: why complain now about how nidalee should be a laner, with reference "i am a lane nida main" when he hasn't played his champ for 3 years ?
> [{quoted}](name=MTFN Azor ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=0000000a00000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T11:05:40.611+0000) > > why complain now about how nidalee should be a laner, with reference "i am a lane nida main" when he hasn't played his champ for 3 years ? What are you going on about? Why complain about something that is virtually unplayable that used to be playable? Hell I still occasionally try to pull out top lane Nidalee but it's so hit or miss that I just keep her to the jungle. It's not that we don't want to lane with her but we want to win so no shit some of us aren't going to lane her.
0 Hogapu (EUW)
: yo shes been a jungler for 3 years already, if not more
> [{quoted}](name=MTFN Azor ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=0000000a,timestamp=2019-05-14T20:53:32.658+0000) > > yo shes been a jungler for 3 years already, if not more She was a laner for like what 7 years? your point?
: Nidalee Players Want Riot To Step Up And Fix The Mess Riot Created.
I personally wish Riot had doubled down on Nidalee's versatility instead of shoe horning her into one role and build path. I liked AD Nidalee and AP Nidalee as well as taking her jungle, top, and mid but I'm stuck with ap jungle Nidalee which honestly when not snowballed ahead doesn't compete with most of the champion pool with similar or comparable kits
: To be honest, thematically Nidalee fits as a jungle champion way more than as a mid laner, but that is just my opinion.
> [{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-12T23:37:57.584+0000) > > To be honest, thematically Nidalee fits as a jungle champion way more than as a mid laner, but that is just my opinion. and thematically shit fits more as an AD champion too... > [{quoted}](name=Bruiser Nid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-05-12T23:15:09.709+0000) > > Actually no, she isn't tier 2. She is not viable after 20 minutes into game, no matter how hard you snowballed. Riot should remove the really long pounce so they can afford to give Nidalee power back. There is absolutely nothing wrong with her long range pounce. half the champion pool has a dash, blink, or jump with very similar range and no prerequisite. I think hunt and prowl should be reworked sure but not removed. She should have more ways of getting the mark off but also require more effort to maximize the effects of it. The whole point of hunt was to make Nidalee combo human and cougar together. This isn't pre-rework Nidalee and we aren't getting that back. Old Nidalee was great in her time but she can't survive the game League has become with her old kit.
: It was good for taking down tanks and i'm sure it still will be
> [{quoted}](name=FaZe Cupid,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=aMZruRUh,comment-id=00270001,timestamp=2018-11-20T09:17:45.401+0000) > > It was good for taking down tanks and i'm sure it still will be and most likely it'll still be better to just get Last whisper or void staff
: Patch 8.23 notes
lmao that guinsoo's rework is trash. wth is going on here? Can we please revisit the original direction of it's first form? Thje original gave AD and AP and stacked with attacks and ability casts granting additional attackspeed and AP. It was a bad item that only a few could use but what it was trying to accomplish wasn't bad. This is a joke item even for an on-hit build
Meddler (NA)
: Separate note just for the NA Boards - my apologies, but I'm just about to leave town for a few days. Won't be able to respond to comments or questions this morning as a result. Back to usual on that as well next week.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o7Ts852E,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-31T15:38:05.689+0000) > > Separate note just for the NA Boards - my apologies, but I'm just about to leave town for a few days. Won't be able to respond to comments or questions this morning as a result. Back to usual on that as well next week. Kind of wish you were more active on your posts throughout the day instead of just an hour or two after posting.
Malak (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Adalvar,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-10-26T16:07:34.255+0000) > > Hi Meddler...now that the issues with {{champion:81}} and {{champion:127}} are finished, i'd like to talk about another point on my personal bucket list: {{item:3027}} > > Currently, the item takes too long to scale up and the pay off at the end isn't really worth it (less mana compared to other mana options and not that much AP). It's gotten to the point where champs that had this as a core item are slowly dropping it. Would you consider tweaking it's passive around so that you gain some added benefit *upon reaching the 10 minute stacking mark*? > > One relatively simple idea would be to shift the damage aura of {{item:3001}} (which doesn't make a lick of sense to belong in a tank item) and place it on {{item:3027}} as a reward for fully stacking the item (which would make a heck of alot more sense due to it's nature as a scaling item). > > Your thoughts on the issue and suggestion? yea RoA should change into Rod of Eternity or something, where the stacking passive is changed into abyssal's damage aura or something else that benefits CLOSE RANGE mages
> [{quoted}](name=Malak,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=00100002,timestamp=2018-10-26T21:15:13.956+0000) > > yea RoA should change into Rod of Eternity or something, where the stacking passive is changed into abyssal's damage aura or something else that benefits CLOSE RANGE mages It would be nice if it was more than just a stat stick on a timer
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 26
I feel like I haven't been clear Meddler or you just don't check this past a certain point which happens to be after I'm able to access this site. Nidalee - She's been left in the dust by your balance and gameplay design choices. Too many champions are quick flashy and able to pull off incredible attacks in the flash of an eye and these types of designs have been steadily increasing as the years have gone by making older champion designs obsolete and requireing champion updates and reworks. Your balance design choices for Nidalee have been to plunge her back into the old way of design while she's still surrounded by the new design. I don't know if you've played the souls series games or even know the difference between them all but it's basically like Nidalee is a player from Dark Souls being thrust into the world of Blood Borne except you're still playing with the clunky slow tank controls of Dark souls while everyone has the fast paced quick and agile controls of Bloode Born. Now despite some distinct difference between the two a Dark souls player cannot survive the mechanics and abilities of a Blood Borne character. The closes modern design choice in League that fits this analogy are Juggernauts. They are designed to be slow clunky and telegraphed but hit big and be able to take a big hit while doping it. Nidalee is not a Juggernaut and can't do any of those so we are basically forced to play like a stealth champion and unfortunately we weren't gifted with a cardboard box or given the ability to go invisible so we're stuck with telegraphing a lot and due to clunkiness and having to draw our fights out we're frequently behind eating dirt to try and catch up. Nidalee should be fast and terrifying but she's slow, telegraphed and clunky. You increased cast times on a character that's supposed to be fast, increased cooldowns that are supposed to be fast, you removed auto attack rests from us that slowed down our champion to champion combat, you reduced the range on our speed boost, and you've made everyone faster and faster while leaving our primary way into the fight as one of the slowest and smallest skillshots in the game. I hate comparing skillshots because every champion is the same but Javelin Toss has a hit radius of 20 and a projectile speed of 1300 and it is absolutely mandatory that you hit this skill in order to do the rest of your combo. Lux binding hit radius is 50 and has a projectile speed of 1200 plus it can go through one enemy and hit a second target and Ezreal Mystic Shot has a hit radius of 50 and projectile speed of 2000. Javelin Toss should be somewhere in the middle there. The only skillshots that should be as slow as Nidalee's are the ones that provide CC. I don't see Jayce and Jinx getting a skill that slow and hitting there's is about finishing their combo not starting it. It's already bad enough we have 0 CC and any dash, flash, blink, or movespeed burst can take enemies out of our combo if we even manage to land it but you've made it so damn hard to land and it isn't even about getting good. That would have been fine back in the old days when most characters were slow but now everyone is so fast and agile and easily able to dodge everything. You have more movespeed options in Runes now than you used to and had the bonus from boots split between boots 1 and champion stats so more champions wouldn't require boots early game. This stuff has big impacts Anyway I'm done. You'll probably never read this either. Nidalee has been ignored for the better part of a year while her counters constantly get buffed and all the reasons Nidalee got nerfed get turned on their heads. P.S.: Hunt is bugged again. True site doesn't work on stealth units most of the time especially when they transition to steal just after getting hit. Kai'Sa and Kha'six for example.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 24
You guys are completely all over the popular champions regardless of whether they are good or not and completely ignoring champions that you dumpstered. When are you guys going to seriously look at Nidalee? Almost every jungler outperforms her, can clear just as fast if not faster, brings more utility, objective control, and team play. You've made it so that when we get behind we can never recover. We're too squishy for what our kit requires us to do, too slow for what was supposed to be a mobile kit with no CC, and our damage is locked away in scaling putting us at an early game disadvantage in most matchups while having a hard time getting to that mid to late game point because most of the popular junglers can waltz into our jungle and kill us with relative easy and run us down because everyone has damage, CC, and mobility. Tanks are the only class that can't outright do that to us and they don't need to because of what they provide the team even when extremely behind. We've been ignored almost this entire season after the changes to the jungle and runes. Most of the past nerfs made to Nidalee wouldn't have been required in this jungle and this meta. Still even without the jungle you made Lane Nidalee into a joke too. All of her abilities have been gated with clunkiness and unreliability as a means to balance her. I can't think of a single champion who has a skillshot that both gated by size, speed, and distance while also being gated by the fact that the skill has to land for the rest of their kit to be relevant. Are we going to stay in the dumpster for another season or are you actually going to give Nidalee a look. We played her for her versatility, theme, skillfloor(meaning not everyone plays her), and skill ceiling(showing that we're bad asses) but balance decided to clunky unreliability were the best options for balancing her in a game full of mobile smooth fast paced kits that can do what our kit draws out over a few seconds in a near instance without any need to line everything up perfectly. Also Hunt is bugged. It's not revealing stealth units that transition to steal. Kaisai for instance disappears when she uses her stealth instead of remaining visible for us to attack. Also on top of Javelin Toss having an absurdly small hit box it's abysmal projectile speed the hit detection is broken and will often pass right through enemies. I've had countless Javelins pass through red buff and blue buff or zip right on through a champion model and either hit nothing or hit something far behind them. Nidalee's a high risk champion to make changes on because of her history. I get it... but nothing she has required to be balanced since her rework was rocket science. No one is talking to us about a champion we play and know like the back of our hands. Stop putting more power into the champions that already have fun wrecking us and weakening the strategies we rely on if you're just going to keep ignoring us.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 10
Meddler... man what is going on with Nidalee? You tell us maybes and maybes but she's been sitting in the gutter for a long time. She's a paper tiger trying to play as some odd combination of poke, brawler, and assassin while failing at all of them and her only defense is mobility and her mobility is becoming more and more of a joke with every patch you guys release. You keep indirectly nerfing her with each buff and rework you give to her counters. You haven't undone any of the past nerfs to her kit which in league's current state would have been completely unwarranted. She's not the fastest jungler, the safest jungler, or even a good early game jungler and she doesn't shine in team fights or late game. You get this nice sweet spot somewhere in the accelerated mid game where she might be great but it's so hit or miss that you are almost always relying on your teammates to execute a perfect early game just so you can be relevant. She's too slow and too squishy for how hit or miss/feast or famine her kit is. She's too squishy and you expect us to do this whole melee deal with 0 CC, average to below average mobility, no CC reduction, no reliable anything to her kit. She's supposed to be one of the epitome of skill expression champions but you've taken to trying to balancing her via clunkiness, sluggishness, and squishiness. Her combo's are difficult to achieve especially on the ridiculous level of mobility currently in the game and even harder to even get started with her binary hunt mechanic. Isn't is hilarious how mobility creep has been hurting a champion that used to be among Leagues most mobile champions? Half the champion pool can run us down and murder us with very little effort if we lose the element of surprise and it's so easy to lose the element of surprise. A guy that fights people with a lamppost shouldn't be able to run us down or beat us in a race across the map... a horse sure but a guy with a freaking lamppost??? Look you don't need a massive team effort to look into her. You have people that would love to work on her at RIOT and you have tons of Nidalee players that have been trying to give you feedback for years but you've been ignoring us and balancing her in ways that are counter intuitive and just outright nearsighted. We've had plenty of ideas and feedback for you but no one is listening. Please stop trying to turn an apex predator known for being extremely nimble, evasive, mobile, and deadly and trying to turn them into a sluggish clumsy toad with a cat skin. Cougar feels like playing game of frogger against oncoming traffic too often Please listen to what we have to say and actually consider our input instead of taking the input of a few that have no idea what Nidalee even is. So many people hate the idea of Nidalee getting most to a point where she's a competitive pick in ranked and the competitive scene but most of those players do not want a Nidalee in their game unless it's on the enemy team and there's a good reason for that. You ignored us before, you messed up, and now we're paying the price for it. That's it. You're probably not going to respond but man we've been waiting and waiting and waiting. She doesn't need massive buffs or reworks just to be functional. A skilled hunter, and apex predator, a battle cat not a prey item.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
Meddler... man what is going on with Nidalee? You tell us maybes and maybes but she's been sitting in the gutter for a long time. She's a paper tiger trying to play as some odd combination of poke, brawler, and assassin while failing at all of them and her only defense is mobility and her mobility is becoming more and more of a joke with every patch you guys release. You keep indirectly nerfing her with each buff and rework you give to her counters. You haven't undone any of the past nerfs to her kit which in league's current state would have been completely unwarranted. She's not the fastest jungler, the safest jungler, or even a good early game jungler and she doesn't shine in team fights or late game. You get this nice sweet spot somewhere in the accelerated mid game where she might be great but it's so hit or miss that you are almost always relying on your teammates to execute a perfect early game just so you can be relevant. She's too slow and too squishy for how hit or miss/feast or famine her kit is. She's too squishy and you expect us to do this whole melee deal with 0 CC, average to below average mobility, no CC reduction, no reliable anything to her kit. She's supposed to be one of the epitome of skill expression champions but you've taken to trying to balancing her via clunkiness, sluggishness, and squishiness. Her combo's are difficult to achieve especially on the ridiculous level of mobility currently in the game and even harder to even get started with her binary hunt mechanic. Isn't is hilarious how mobility creep has been hurting a champion that used to be among Leagues most mobile champions? Half the champion pool can run us down and murder us with very little effort if we lose the element of surprise and it's so easy to lose the element of surprise. A guy that fights people with a lamppost shouldn't be able to run us down or beat us in a race across the map... a horse sure but a guy with a freaking lamppost??? Look you don't need a massive team effort to look into her. You have people that would love to work on her at RIOT and you have tons of Nidalee players that have been trying to give you feedback for years but you've been ignoring us and balancing her in ways that are counter intuitive and just outright nearsighted. We've had plenty of ideas and feedback for you but no one is listening. Please stop trying to turn an apex predator known for being extremely nimble, evasive, mobile, and deadly and trying to turn them into a sluggish clumsy toad with a cat skin. Cougar feels like playing game of frogger against oncoming traffic too often Please listen to what we have to say and actually consider our input instead of taking the input of a few that have no idea what Nidalee even is. So many people hate the idea of Nidalee getting most to a point where she's a competitive pick in ranked and the competitive scene but most of those players do not want a Nidalee in their game unless it's on the enemy team and there's a good reason for that. You ignored us before, you messed up, and now we're paying the price for it. That's it. You're probably not going to respond but man we've been waiting and waiting and waiting. She doesn't need massive buffs or reworks just to be functional. A skilled hunter, and apex predator, a battle cat not a prey item. PS. DH nerfs are just another indirect nerf to Nidalee
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 26
Meddler... man what is going on with Nidalee? You tell us maybes and maybes but she's been sitting in the gutter for a long time. She's a paper tiger trying to play as some odd combination of poke, brawler, and assassin while failing at all of them and her only defense is mobility and her mobility is becoming more and more of a joke with every patch you guys release. You keep indirectly nerfing her with each buff and rework you give to her counters. You haven't undone any of the past nerfs to her kit which in league's current state would have been completely unwarranted. She's not the fastest jungler, the safest jungler, or even a good early game jungler and she doesn't shine in team fights or late game. You get this nice sweet spot somewhere in the accelerated mid game where she might be great but it's so hit or miss that you are almost always relying on your teammates to execute a perfect early game just so you can be relevant. She's too slow and too squishy for how hit or miss/feast or famine her kit is. She's too squishy and you expect us to do this whole melee deal with 0 CC, average to below average mobility, no CC reduction, no reliable anything to her kit. She's supposed to be one of the epitome of skill expression champions but you've taken to trying to balancing her via clunkiness, sluggishness, and squishiness. Her combo's are difficult to achieve especially on the ridiculous level of mobility currently in the game and even harder to even get started with her binary hunt mechanic. Isn't is hilarious how mobility creep has been hurting a champion that used to be among Leagues most mobile champions? Half the champion pool can run us down and murder us with very little effort if we lose the element of surprise and it's so easy to lose the element of surprise. A guy that fights people with a lamppost shouldn't be able to run us down or beat us in a race across the map... a horse sure but a guy with a freaking lamppost??? Look you don't need a massive team effort to look into her. You have people that would love to work on her at RIOT and you have tons of Nidalee players that have been trying to give you feedback for years but you've been ignoring us and balancing her in ways that are counter intuitive and just outright nearsighted. We've had plenty of ideas and feedback for you but no one is listening. Please stop trying to turn an apex predator known for being extremely nimble, evasive, mobile, and deadly and trying to turn them into a sluggish clumsy toad with a cat skin. Cougar feels like playing game of frogger against oncoming traffic too often Please listen to what we have to say and actually consider our input instead of taking the input of a few that have no idea what Nidalee even is. So many people hate the idea of Nidalee getting most to a point where she's a competitive pick in ranked and the competitive scene but most of those players do not want a Nidalee in their game unless it's on the enemy team and there's a good reason for that. You ignored us before, you messed up, and now we're paying the price for it. That's it. You're probably not going to respond but man we've been waiting and waiting and waiting. She doesn't need massive buffs or reworks just to be functional. A skilled hunter, and apex predator, a battle cat not a prey item.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 19
Meddler... man what is going on with Nidalee? You tell us maybes and maybes but she's been sitting in the gutter for a long time. She's a paper tiger trying to play as some odd combination of poke, brawler, and assassin while failing at all of them and her only defense is mobility and her mobility is becoming more and more of a joke with every patch you guys release. You keep indirectly nerfing her with each buff and rework you give to her counters. You haven't undone any of the past nerfs to her kit which in league's current state would have been completely unwarranted. She's not the fastest jungler, the safest jungler, or even a good early game jungler and she doesn't shine in team fights or late game. You get this nice sweet spot somewhere in the accelerated mid game where she might be great but it's so hit or miss that you are almost always relying on your teammates to execute a perfect early game just so you can be relevant. She's too slow and too squishy for how hit or miss/feast or famine her kit is. She's too squishy and you expect us to do this whole melee deal with 0 CC, average to below average mobility, no CC reduction, no reliable anything to her kit. She's supposed to be one of the epitome of skill expression champions but you've taken to trying to balancing her via clunkiness, sluggishness, and squishiness. Her combo's are difficult to achieve especially on the ridiculous level of mobility currently in the game and even harder to even get started with her binary hunt mechanic. Isn't is hilarious how mobility creep has been hurting a champion that used to be among Leagues most mobile champions? Half the champion pool can run us down and murder us with very little effort if we lose the element of surprise and it's so easy to lose the element of surprise. A guy that fights people with a lamppost shouldn't be able to run us down or beat us in a race across the map... a horse sure but a guy with a freaking lamppost??? Look you don't need a massive team effort to look into her. You have people that would love to work on her at RIOT and you have tons of Nidalee players that have been trying to give you feedback for years but you've been ignoring us and balancing her in ways that are counter intuitive and just outright nearsighted. We've had plenty of ideas and feedback for you but no one is listening. Please stop trying to turn an apex predator known for being extremely nimble, evasive, mobile, and deadly and trying to turn them into a sluggish clumsy toad with a cat skin. Cougar feels like playing game of frogger against oncoming traffic too often Please listen to what we have to say and actually consider our input instead of taking the input of a few that have no idea what Nidalee even is. So many people hate the idea of Nidalee getting most to a point where she's a competitive pick in ranked and the competitive scene but most of those players do not want a Nidalee in their game unless it's on the enemy team and there's a good reason for that. You ignored us before, you messed up, and now we're paying the price for it. That's it. You're probably not going to respond but man we've been waiting and waiting and waiting. She doesn't need massive buffs or reworks just to be functional. A skilled hunter, and apex predator, a battle cat not a prey item.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 9
I'm really not a fan of how jungle items have turned out nor with what's going on with the ap jungle itemization. I personally think you need to really simplify yet also expand how jungle items are currently being implemented. I think there need to be more varying jungle items especially when it comes to AP junglers. A one size fits all jungle item just doesn't work and past seasons have proven that over and over again. I personally believe that there should be jungle items for each general class of junglers to fit the unique archetypes that fall within each. We've got ap junglers, attack based junglers, and tanks/juggernaut junglers. 3 items for each with a gold efficient early buy and a slot efficient late buy and they should be based on items that are already in the game and balanced and be balanced alongside those items. Tuning for the jungle half should be done on the jungle portion of the item, jungle camps, and champions. One example: Skirmisher's Sabre + Sheen = Madreds spellblade. an empowered sheen effect of say 125% base ad and some bonus effect on camps and or with smite. Sheen items can fit all 3 classes of junglers. Madreds spellblade + glacial shroud = Madreds Gauntlet Madreds spellblade + aether wisp + blasting wand = Madreds Bane Madreds spellblade + stinger + phage = Madreds Heart Example 2: Skirmisher's Sabre + Haunting Guise = Madred's Breath. basically haunting guise with a jungle buff of some kind. a unique effect that only works towards monsters? Madred's Breath +blasting wand = Madred's Flame. etc Honestly there should be a jungle/lane equivalent of all the items. It eliminates things like rune glaive ezreal and other past item abuse cases and strictly leaves the balance in the items and not also where they're also mean to be used. You don't need to get super fancy with the jungle items but there needs to be more options and less one size fits all item attempts. not ever champion wants ludens, not every champion wants a sheen items. Some champions want more than a huge lump of AD and CDR, some champions want access to madreds razor outside the jungle. Please try to take some idea from this because while some champions like the runic echoes change others don't and it less so that the item is simply changing and more so that the items tries to accommodate everyone and honestly only accommodates the ones that fully utilize's the stat's and effects that it gives.
Wèaver (NA)
: While I agree with diversity in item builds, the jungle item should be a cheap alternative with lower stats that doesnt alienate a majority of items out there. If you have a jungle item that effectively replaces other in game items (assuming with the same unique passives) then it creates this disconnect. How would you feel about a low cost low stat one size fits all item? That way we could maintain item diversity without needing to funnel metas based on the ap item or needing 5+ items to accommodate everyone?
> [{quoted}](name=Wèaver,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BnERA43Z,comment-id=000300000004000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-06T07:46:31.338+0000) > > While I agree with diversity in item builds, the jungle item should be a cheap alternative with lower stats that doesnt alienate a majority of items out there. If you have a jungle item that effectively replaces other in game items (assuming with the same unique passives) then it creates this disconnect. How would you feel about a low cost low stat one size fits all item? That way we could maintain item diversity without needing to funnel metas based on the ap item or needing 5+ items to accommodate everyone? Because you have too many different types of champion play styles that do and don't use certain items. I'd prefer a cheaper lower stat version of other items that can be later upgraded to a equal version of same non jungle items. level 1 jungle items should be very gold efficient and upgraded versions aka lvl 2 should be slot efficient but not as gold efficient
Wèaver (NA)
: I agree with this, for AD champions you have an option of going Bloodrazor or Warrior, with casters opting for Warrior and Auto Attackers opting for Bloodrazor. It stands to reason you could have an AP option for mages and assassins respectively.
> [{quoted}](name=Wèaver,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BnERA43Z,comment-id=0003000000040000,timestamp=2018-05-06T06:13:28.746+0000) > > I agree with this, for AD champions you have an option of going Bloodrazor or Warrior, with casters opting for Warrior and Auto Attackers opting for Bloodrazor. It stands to reason you could have an AP option for mages and assassins respectively. Hell with AP you have burst casters, assassins, and then you have sustained ap damage. Ludens, lichbane, and liandires fits all of those and I think there should be a jungle equivalent for them all
: Diana has an area of effect slow knock up and a shield. She is far tankier than Nidalee.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=B9N9NiWE,comment-id=001c0000000100030001000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-05T19:06:27.059+0000) > > Diana has an area of effect slow knock up and a shield. She is far tankier than Nidalee. Not really. she still blows up if she pulls that off in against a team. She might last a second longer if she wasn't horrendously fed
: Nidalee is most certainly an assassin. She has high mobility and high damage. Her primary goal is to dive the enemy squishy and kill them, then get out. She has no crowd control and no durability, so she's not a diver/assassin hybrid like Elise or Diana.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=B9N9NiWE,comment-id=001c00000001000300010000,timestamp=2018-05-05T17:23:10.219+0000) > > Nidalee is most certainly an assassin. She has high mobility and high damage. Her primary goal is to dive the enemy squishy and kill them, then get out. She has no crowd control and no durability, so she's not a diver/assassin hybrid like Elise or Diana. Her mobility is average and when she gets in she typically can't get out like other assassins. She's like a more mobile version of diana almost completely. hell her engage pattern is the same... hit Q do big damage and hope you live
: Few things here - A) I recall that during the last rework attempt on Nidalee, Riot said that her heal was important to her theme of hunting and that Nidalee players in general were attached to her not having CC. I think both of these things are a mistake to keep on her. B) If Nidalee is going to be in lane, she either needs to one shot or she needs some form of utility. At this point, Nidalee's kit does nothing that Zoe's kit doesn't do better. The only thing that Nidalee has going for her over Zoe is her form shift, and really what does her form shift offer her other than 0 mana abilities? C) Nidalee needs some form of crowd control. I suggest replacing her E entirely with something more offensive. However, if you want to keep E, at least make it so Nidalee can only cast it on herself. There's no reason for her to be able to heal her allies, it doesn't fit with the lore and it doesn't fit with an assassin's kit.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=B9N9NiWE,comment-id=001c000000010003,timestamp=2018-05-04T21:54:53.193+0000) > > Few things here - > > A) I recall that during the last rework attempt on Nidalee, Riot said that her heal was important to her theme of hunting and that Nidalee players in general were attached to her not having CC. I think both of these things are a mistake to keep on her. > > B) If Nidalee is going to be in lane, she either needs to one shot or she needs some form of utility. At this point, Nidalee's kit does nothing that Zoe's kit doesn't do better. The only thing that Nidalee has going for her over Zoe is her form shift, and really what does her form shift offer her other than 0 mana abilities? > > C) Nidalee needs some form of crowd control. I suggest replacing her E entirely with something more offensive. However, if you want to keep E, at least make it so Nidalee can only cast it on herself. There's no reason for her to be able to heal her allies, it doesn't fit with the lore and it doesn't fit with an assassin's kit. You don't even understand her kit thematic man. She was designed after warcraft druids with a hunter/domain over the jungle theme. All of that ties into primal magics which include things like healing, shapeshifting, and power over nature. Her kit having CC actually does make sense just not bonkers hard CC.(things like slows, staggers(breaks channels), disarms, and roots) Nidalee does not need to one shot and she does not need her E replaced. Her kit has always been about setting things up and going in for the kill like a proper hunter. She needs more of her damage moved to her abilities and less to her passive. Her passive should be a bonus not a requirement and she needs more reliable and additional ways to apply it. As for laning she needs something her current kit does not yet provide for it to work and it's something that could simply be added on as a passive to another ability but would require tweaks across her entire kit to allow it in. While I could totally give up on the heal allies part of her kit it should be noted that she's not an assassin. She's a little bit of everything and that's what draws a lot of players to her. She used to be the signature jack of all trades in league but the jungle pigeonholing has ruined that.
AD Yuumi (NA)
: Oh hi it me. Am interested in getting Nid back into a solo lane. Seems high value if we can achieve it given her gameplay and thematics. The issue I'm running into is that her current kit doesn't seem to support lane play without a number of game health risks or risks of making her jungle bonkers. As a result I expect getting lane Nidalee back would take a number of larger mechanical shifts on the champion as opposed to simple numbers changes. This is doable, but would take time (Similar scope to the work we did on Rengar). Was thinking of doing some exploratory work on her once I wrap up work on my current VGU. No promises however, the exploration could end up yielding nothing of value (Would only make changes if we were confident Lane Nid AND jungle Nid were being made better).
> [{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=B9N9NiWE,comment-id=001c00000001,timestamp=2018-05-04T21:13:49.816+0000) > > Oh hi it me. > > Am interested in getting Nid back into a solo lane. Seems high value if we can achieve it given her gameplay and thematics. The issue I'm running into is that her current kit doesn't seem to support lane play without a number of game health risks or risks of making her jungle bonkers. > > As a result I expect getting lane Nidalee back would take a number of larger mechanical shifts on the champion as opposed to simple numbers changes. This is doable, but would take time (Similar scope to the work we did on Rengar). Was thinking of doing some exploratory work on her once I wrap up work on my current VGU. No promises however, the exploration could end up yielding nothing of value (Would only make changes if we were confident Lane Nid AND jungle Nid were being made better). I was afraid of this but I did come up with a ton of ideas for guys like you to brain storm while you take a look into it. There is a reddit and League forum version which both may differ. I believe the reddit one has more details https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/kv9smc9N-nidalee-the-primal-gaurdian https://dd.reddit.com/r/NidaleeMains/comments/6yppqe/nidalee_rework_ideas_if_she_ends_up_being_on_the/
: Yep, unfortunately the movespeed was just better utilized by Nidalee, Elise, and Eve. We're hoping that this change opens up the jungle to more mages, along with the mana tuning on talisman.
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BnERA43Z,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-05-02T00:26:24.724+0000) > > Yep, unfortunately the movespeed was just better utilized by Nidalee, Elise, and Eve. We're hoping that this change opens up the jungle to more mages, along with the mana tuning on talisman. Maybe you shouldn't try to make a one size fits all ap item and actually make 2 or 3. You can easily base them on items that the different class ap junglers already build just how runic echoes was another version of Luden's Echo. The way you're doing this now one class or another is getting screwed
Meddler (NA)
: Thanks. Haven't heard a pitch from August on lane Nid, going to tag him in to share his thoughts instead as a result. We'd like to get Nid back into lane, but have concerns that need to be addressed is the starting point and why we haven't just added some laning focused power to her.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZpEtcFmB,comment-id=0036000000030001,timestamp=2018-05-02T17:48:03.328+0000) > > Thanks. Haven't heard a pitch from August on lane Nid, going to tag him in to share his thoughts instead as a result. We'd like to get Nid back into lane, but have concerns that need to be addressed is the starting point and why we haven't just added some laning focused power to her. We've given tons of feedback to several of you on Nidalee and I know personally I've posted on your gameplay thoughts several times, Ricklessabandon's twitter, and RiotAugust's twitter. So many ways to go with her. I would like to point out that generally with most roles there is a gold standard that balance tries to match and normally one or two champions represent that gold standard. Perhaps reverting Nidalee and doing a jungle rebalance along with a change to most junglers is in order? That's be a silly big project though so likely no. Her passive could be changed drastically. For one she's too reliant on it and it makes her kit very binary and it aids in making her too strong of a jungler. There are many ways to go with this but if lane Nidalee is ever going to be a thing a gain her passive needs to be a bonus not a requirement and she needs to fell like a fast efficient huntress. You could try balancing her passive in some similar fashion to how Evely's stealth is balanced where she gains new bonuses with ranks in R. You could split her passive into a damage bonus and utility bonus - The damage bonus applies to champions only and the utility to everything. Her Traps and Swipe are very underwhelming uninteresting skills in her kit right now. You've straight stripped traps of all their useful attributes in order to balance her in the jungle. Honestly a lot of mechanics in her kit are stripped down, underwhelming, and easy to outplay. One reason why she's even good at all is because she can jungle and most of her flaws are hidden by the cover of Fog of War allowing her to potentially get off powerful combos when an enemy is unaware. Element of surprise is our biggest tool. This is something other junglers don't need nearly as much and can just run up in plain sight and do because their only requirement is being in range for most things. Anyway please keep us in mind when you start looking for ideas. Nidalee mains subreddit have a lot of ideas
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 27
Meddler are we going to see any kind of updates or fixes for Nidalee anytime? I can list off a few things that do and don't effect her jungle since that's always a reason not to help her anywhere else or in general. Nidalee is stuck in a game currently where teams snowball completely diminishing a large reason for playing her. She's reliant on snowballing the early game and in most cases she's even with other champions when she should be ahead or heavily behind when she's behind. One major idea for balancing Jungle Nidalee is to change the hunt mechanic. Make hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus like it should have been. Split hunt into a utility bonus and damage bonus on all skills. The utility effect applies to everything while the damage effect only applies to champions. Move power out of hunt and back into the base skills. The removal of the auto attack reset was meant to curb her power but ruined her fluidity and coupled with her base attackspeed nerfs hit her dps heavily when swapping forms. They served a very big purpose in her kit because of what form swapping does to your attack timer when you don't have the reset. Without the reset your attack timer is increased lowering your dps and making it take longer to get off your next attack(basically a self inflicted cold steel debuff). With the reset it increases your dps but only when you actually time it right otherwise it just leads to you not having a dps loss. Now tell me which sounds better to you? being punished for using ability or being rewarded for using an ability efficiently? I know that's always going to be a problematic topic because balancing her for the jungle is a pain but honestly I think It would have been easier to tweak the jungle camps and items than to do so many changes to her. Jungle Nidalee is a hot mess so we'll move on to other things. Her engage pattern and her laning are horrible. Her kit is too binary and while she isn't the most binary champion in league the way her is setup leads it's self to being either extremely oppressive or completely useless. She already got gutted for the oppressive aspects so I think it's time she got something back in return. Improve her engage pattern, Make hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus, and give us better ways of dealing with tanky CC heavy teams. Her Engage pattern * Her engage pattern suffers from being far too predictable and easy to avoid when enemies have line of sight which is one of many reason why Jungle is really her only good option. * My suggestions are to increase Javelin Toss Projectile speed and size. There's no reason for a single target raw damage skill, that is her only semi reliable way of accessing hunt to be so slow and easy to miss/dodge. There are hundreds of instances where we watch our skills go right through targets they should have hit. * Bushwhack need some serious work... Just look at this skill... it's pathetic. I loosely understand that there were limitations put on them to slow her jungle even though both pounce and bushwhack were both nerfed heavily. Traps did not need to be changed to be invisible and have health. We need them to have power that makes stepping on them dangerous while also having them visible so enemies know to avoid them. Give them shred again but cap monster damage, if not give them a debuff that only Nidalee benefits from, Give Nidalee a trap reservoir which seems standard on most trap bearing champions now. * Give her a third option for applying Hunt. The rework team really dropped the ball on making Primal Surge make more sense in her kit and the balance team just made it worse. The attackspeed heal needs to count for something if she's just going to be a jungling AP assassin even though I think she makes more sense as AD or some AP auto attacker. Give her or an ally a 3-4 hit attackbonus when under the effects of primal Surge that applies Hunt. This could solve a lot of issues when it comes to laning and dealing with ranged laners that utilize the minion wave against you while poking you down with AOE. Making Hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus is something that can be easily achieved. Give them a damage damage amp side and utility effect. * Examples: Takedown reverted to pre-rework status in all regards - Deals physical damage, scales up to original values, and has original cooldown. hunt bonus: ignores a percent of the targets DR and gives true sight of the target based on how low they are. * Pounce cut the damage in half , increase the range by a smidgen, increase damage(champions only) and range on hunted targets. * Swipe: A very boring skill with nothing special to it. lower base damage give it AD and AP scaling, apply on-hit effects, shreds hp, and hunt bonus increases health shred(champions only) and reduces a small amount of damage from the hunted target for a small duration. I could list so many ideas but take what you will from this. Nidalee has no way of dealing with tanky comps, She's nowhere near mobile enough to deal with the level of CC in the game right now, she has no CC, She's extremely squishy yet expected to go melee to compete for damage, and she doesn't do enough damage to deal with front liners especially if she falls behind. You fall behind and it doesn't matter what you build as Nidalee. You don't have the damage, mobility, durability, or utility to compete with tanky deathball comps once you're behind. * Bushwhack was traditionally the skill for dealing with tanky foes but you removed the hp shred and so many other things from the skill to the point that it's basically like summoning a lvl 1 caster minion for 2 seconds if you step on one. It's pathetic and you base get to use the hunt portion of it. Traps should regain the shred even if it's a champion on effect and you should gain a trap reservoir and be able to place more traps more often even if it means they lose their invisibility. This is an ability that's cost, utility, and damage don't make up for it taking an ability slot. * Takedown is already there for killing and with the above suggestion it would be another tool for hitting tanks in the soft spot. This ability is supposed to be about hitting a weakened enemy in their weak spot and attempting to kill them so I suggest it ignored a scaling percent of defensive stats on hunted targets. I should be able kill a tank or juggernaut at 10% health at any stage of the game but right now they can completely surprise you and live. * Swipe is the second most bland skill in Nidalee's kit. Just like every other skill in her kit it just does damage... There is no bonus effect to keep Nidalee strong in the game and frankly the is another skill that makes sense as a health stacking hurt skill. Lowering the base damage would easily make room for a light HP shred. Adding in AD scaling and applying on-hit effects would open the door for more diverse builds that can utilize AD, AP, and hybridized items and that flexibility is where Lane Nidalee shines As usual I know most rioters don't want anything to do with Nidalee so we'll get ignored but you keep buffing everything around her after tossing her into a pit. Eventually everything around her is going to rise up and bury her. You already rarely see her because her strengths are so hard to capitalize on since gold income changes and all these class and item changes. Please consider looking at her. Maybe give her a proper relaunch and bring back the original voice actor so we can improve her voice lines? She already said she'd love to.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 25
Meddler are we going to see any kind of updates or fixes for Nidalee anytime? I can list off a few things that do and don't effect her jungle since that's always a reason not to help her anywhere else or in general. Nidalee is stuck in a game currently where teams snowball completely diminishing a large reason for playing her. She's reliant on snowballing the early game and in most cases she's even with other champions when she should be ahead or heavily behind when she's behind. One major idea for balancing Jungle Nidalee is to change the hunt mechanic. Make hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus like it should have been. Split hunt into a utility bonus and damage bonus on all skills. The utility effect applies to everything while the damage effect only applies to champions. Move power out of hunt and back into the base skills. The removal of the auto attack reset was meant to curb her power but ruined her fluidity and coupled with her base attackspeed nerfs hit her dps heavily when swapping forms. They served a very big purpose in her kit because of what form swapping does to your attack timer when you don't have the reset. Without the reset your attack timer is increased lowering your dps and making it take longer to get off your next attack(basically a self inflicted cold steel debuff). With the reset it increases your dps but only when you actually time it right otherwise it just leads to you not having a dps loss. Now tell me which sounds better to you? being punished for using ability or being rewarded for using an ability efficiently? I know that's always going to be a problematic topic because balancing her for the jungle is a pain but honestly I think It would have been easier to tweak the jungle camps and items than to do so many changes to her. Jungle Nidalee is a hot mess so we'll move on to other things. Her engage pattern and her laning are horrible. Her kit is too binary and while she isn't the most binary champion in league the way her is setup leads it's self to being either extremely oppressive or completely useless. She already got gutted for the oppressive aspects so I think it's time she got something back in return. Improve her engage pattern, Make hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus, and give us better ways of dealing with tanky CC heavy teams. Her Engage pattern * Her engage pattern suffers from being far too predictable and easy to avoid when enemies have line of sight which is one of many reason why Jungle is really her only good option. * My suggestions are to increase Javelin Toss Projectile speed and size. There's no reason for a single target raw damage skill, that is her only semi reliable way of accessing hunt to be so slow and easy to miss/dodge. There are hundreds of instances where we watch our skills go right through targets they should have hit. * Bushwhack need some serious work... Just look at this skill... it's pathetic. I loosely understand that there were limitations put on them to slow her jungle even though both pounce and bushwhack were both nerfed heavily. Traps did not need to be changed to be invisible and have health. We need them to have power that makes stepping on them dangerous while also having them visible so enemies know to avoid them. Give them shred again but cap monster damage, if not give them a debuff that only Nidalee benefits from, Give Nidalee a trap reservoir which seems standard on most trap bearing champions now. * Give her a third option for applying Hunt. The rework team really dropped the ball on making Primal Surge make more sense in her kit and the balance team just made it worse. The attackspeed heal needs to count for something if she's just going to be a jungling AP assassin even though I think she makes more sense as AD or some AP auto attacker. Give her or an ally a 3-4 hit attackbonus when under the effects of primal Surge that applies Hunt. This could solve a lot of issues when it comes to laning and dealing with ranged laners that utilize the minion wave against you while poking you down with AOE. Making Hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus is something that can be easily achieved. Give them a damage damage amp side and utility effect. * Examples: Takedown reverted to pre-rework status in all regards - Deals physical damage, scales up to original values, and has original cooldown. hunt bonus: ignores a percent of the targets DR and gives true sight of the target based on how low they are. * Pounce cut the damage in half , increase the range by a smidgen, increase damage(champions only) and range on hunted targets. * Swipe: A very boring skill with nothing special to it. lower base damage give it AD and AP scaling, apply on-hit effects, shreds hp, and hunt bonus increases health shred(champions only) and reduces a small amount of damage from the hunted target for a small duration. I could list so many ideas but take what you will from this. Nidalee has no way of dealing with tanky comps, She's nowhere near mobile enough to deal with the level of CC in the game right now, she has no CC, She's extremely squishy yet expected to go melee to compete for damage, and she doesn't do enough damage to deal with front liners especially if she falls behind. You fall behind and it doesn't matter what you build as Nidalee. You don't have the damage, mobility, durability, or utility to compete with tanky deathball comps once you're behind. * Bushwhack was traditionally the skill for dealing with tanky foes but you removed the hp shred and so many other things from the skill to the point that it's basically like summoning a lvl 1 caster minion for 2 seconds if you step on one. It's pathetic and you base get to use the hunt portion of it. Traps should regain the shred even if it's a champion on effect and you should gain a trap reservoir and be able to place more traps more often even if it means they lose their invisibility. This is an ability that's cost, utility, and damage don't make up for it taking an ability slot. * Takedown is already there for killing and with the above suggestion it would be another tool for hitting tanks in the soft spot. This ability is supposed to be about hitting a weakened enemy in their weak spot and attempting to kill them so I suggest it ignored a scaling percent of defensive stats on hunted targets. I should be able kill a tank or juggernaut at 10% health at any stage of the game but right now they can completely surprise you and live. * Swipe is the second most bland skill in Nidalee's kit. Just like every other skill in her kit it just does damage... There is no bonus effect to keep Nidalee strong in the game and frankly the is another skill that makes sense as a health stacking hurt skill. Lowering the base damage would easily make room for a light HP shred. Adding in AD scaling and applying on-hit effects would open the door for more diverse builds that can utilize AD, AP, and hybridized items and that flexibility is where Lane Nidalee shines As usual I know most rioters don't want anything to do with Nidalee so we'll get ignored but you keep buffing everything around her after tossing her into a pit. Eventually everything around her is going to rise up and bury her. You already rarely see her because her strengths are so hard to capitalize on since gold income changes and all these class and item changes. Please consider looking at her. Maybe give her a proper relaunch and bring back the original voice actor so we can improve her voice lines? She already said she'd love to.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 20
It would be nice to hear something about Nidalee. You have no idea how it feels to be kicked into a hole and left there while everything around you rises up above you and buries you and that's how it feels right now as a Nidalee player. Like we're being left in the dust
: > [{quoted}](name=Sagee Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xV5L80ji,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-04-10T22:47:59.257+0000) > > Nidalee's cougar form is gated by her ability to utilize her human form properly including the mana cost gating. in essence you get cost free cougar abilities but if you want empowered abilities it costs mana and the empowered abilities are immensely better than the regular ones. There was nothing wrong with her stacking tear with cougar ignoring the point what we agree with each other and yet you still seem to be trying to argue with me. the way you say you need to pay for human skills to empower your kitty forms skills, is i guess true if you stretch the wording enough. i mean technically yes, the abilities wont become empowered unless hunted if proced. and you can only proc them by spending mana on human skills but that is still a really bad way to look at it. becuase you spend the mana on the skills REGARDLESS or not hunted is ever proced. and when u say "spending mana to empower it" makes it sound like you could like just pay more mana w/e you want the ability to be empowered like you cold with the old {{item:3042}} . procing hunted is based entirely around landing the spear, yes u need mana to throw the spear, but you can spend infinite mana and it wont do shit if you cant ever hit anyone with said spear. and although traps do _technically_ proc hunted. its pretty much worthless for anything except acting like a mini ward becuase the changes you actaully being in range pounce in on someone who stepped on a trap is next to zero.. and the chances of you WANT to pounce in on someone who stepped on a trap IS zero i think since nidalee's rework 4 years ago i had got to pounce in for the kill TWICE because they stepped on a trap. and i have MANY more people with the traps THEMSELVES traps back when they did % max hp. and i have also killed one person since the gutting of traps but they were also taking other forms, it was just the trap DOT tick that did the killing blow.. my teammate would have killed them regardless
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xV5L80ji,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T02:08:35.811+0000) > > ignoring the point what we agree with each other and yet you still seem to be trying to argue with me. > > the way you say you need to pay for human skills to empower your kitty forms skills, is i guess true if you stretch the wording enough. > > i mean technically yes, the abilities wont become empowered unless hunted if proced. and you can only proc them by spending mana on human skills > > but that is still a really bad way to look at it. becuase you spend the mana on the skills REGARDLESS or not hunted is ever proced. > > and when u say "spending mana to empower it" makes it sound like you could like just pay more mana w/e you want the ability to be empowered like you cold with the old {{item:3042}} . > > procing hunted is based entirely around landing the spear, yes u need mana to throw the spear, but you can spend infinite mana and it wont do shit if you cant ever hit anyone with said spear. > > and although traps do _technically_ proc hunted. > its pretty much worthless for anything except acting like a mini ward > > becuase the changes you actaully being in range pounce in on someone who stepped on a trap is next to zero.. > and the chances of you WANT to pounce in on someone who stepped on a trap IS zero > > i think since nidalee's rework 4 years ago i had got to pounce in for the kill TWICE because they stepped on a trap. > > and i have MANY more people with the traps THEMSELVES traps back when they did % max hp. > > and i have also killed one person since the gutting of traps > but they were also taking other forms, it was just the trap DOT tick that did the killing blow.. my teammate would have killed them regardless I'm simply saying that unlike Jayce, who's abilities can be used in any number of orders and don't really have big requirements to be effective, Nidalee's kit is very binary and you really only have one effective way to utilize it to it's fullest which is proc hunt and cougar engage and then disengage or repeat the pattern again. The pattern is mana gated by an unreliable empower mechanic that you most likely take several attempts at so there's no reason to gate her cougar abilities for mana further and there was no reason to nerf her ability to utilize tear. In short all of Jayce's abilities are reliable and can be used in any order so they all cost mana to gate that effectiveness. Nidalee's Human form is gated by mana while her cougar is free but if you want to use cougar properly it actually is gated by human mana costs since you need hunt procs to get threatening damage and engage. Lets just agree that tear change was a bs nerf to one champion that we enjoyed
: @riot Can we get an update on nidalee
I get the feeling she'll remain in the dumpster till next season. Nidalee when ahead is almost literally equal with most other picks where as when she's behind she's just complete garbage and you get punished for mistakes so heavily it's not funny.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sagee Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xV5L80ji,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-09T04:35:06.846+0000) > > They already nerfed Nidalee, Jayce, and Elise by making it so Their R transform didn't proc Tear. I have no idea why they decided to hit their manaless abilities too since they don't have a relatively quick way to stack it otherwise. This was literally a direct nerf to Nidalee and just Nidalee for no real reason. You could stack tear just as fast as some of the other tear users when you could use cougar and maybe a little faster than the average user but without cougar it's a abysmally slower. > > You won't see elise build tear and this doesn't effect Jayce at all. this.. {{champion:126}} hammer forms costs mana still, this was a complete needless gut of {{item:3070}} on nidalee. i mean it would be stupid easy to fix... just make nid's kitty abilities cost .01 mana. you're done i mean granted that would be a shitty cheap-ass spaghetti-code way to do it. rather than properly coding them to work with the item. but hey.. w/e works... and its not like riot has ever been exactly opposed to spaghetti-code
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xV5L80ji,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-04-10T01:28:27.764+0000) > > this.. {{champion:126}} hammer forms costs mana still, > this was a complete needless gut of {{item:3070}} on nidalee. > i mean it would be stupid easy to fix... just make nid's kitty abilities cost .01 mana. > > you're done > > i mean granted that would be a shitty cheap-ass spaghetti-code way to do it. rather than properly coding them to work with the item. > but hey.. w/e works... > and its not like riot has ever been exactly opposed to spaghetti-code Nidalee's cougar form is gated by her ability to utilize her human form properly including the mana cost gating. in essence you get cost free cougar abilities but if you want empowered abilities it costs mana and the empowered abilities are immensely better than the regular ones. There was nothing wrong with her stacking tear with cougar
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