: THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!!! as a Zac main this makes me cry i love him the way he his...{{item:3070}} {{item:3070}} {{sticker:zombie-nunu-tears}}
Both Zac and Maokai updates should feel pretty familiar to current mains of these champions hopefully. Sejuani is getting a much larger shift on the other hand. Zac's Q, W, and R are all areas we felt we could bring to the next level as they are fairly bland albeit effective spells. This doesn't mean we intend to change all 3 of these spells by the way.
Levost (NA)
: I think that given the lack of official release-communications that this is going to end up giving, you guys should consider doing a post about your plans for systemic changes. Any thoughts there/is this on your radar? There will, I promise, DEFINITELY be huge interest in something like that.
Will look into the possibility of doing a post about the more systemic changes. The largest issue with giving you guys an update now on this is that we are still in the process of figuring out exactly how to solve the systemic problems we're seeing. Either way we could do a post more about the problems themselves rather than any solutions.
Hakubak (NA)
: Although I did expect {{champion:154}} to be on here, I did not expect to see that he's the last update. I was hoping for {{champion:54}} , {{champion:32}} , or even {{champion:33}} to get some love in this update. I hope they're going to have some form of small changes, like the {{champion:101}} /{{champion:45}} /{{champion:34}} /etc changes from the Mage Update. Regardless, I'm interested to see how this update goes. I've always thought his Q and W were a little bland, especially the W. Notice the pattern among {{champion:154}} , {{champion:113}} , {{champion:54}} , and {{champion:32}} how they all have Strong AoE cc and at least one ability that is "damage in an AoE around them," with something just a little different for each one. {{champion:154}} 's W cooldown is reduced by picking up his passive, {{champion:54}} 's E reduces enemy attack speed, {{champion:113}} 's W applies her Frost and is an auto reset, and {{champion:32}} 's W is a toggle that drains mana, and his E's cooldown is reduced when taking damage. I hope the changes to {{champion:154}} and {{champion:113}} can at least seperate them from the group.
I know the choices of Zac and Maokai are somewhat unexpected. The unfortunate truth is that we didn't feel like we could give champions like Malphite, Amumu, and Rammus the attention they deserved given the smaller scope of these types of projects. We ruled out Amumu and Rammus early on since they deserve full-on VGUs. Malphite on the other hand we took a crack at, but didn't walk away with anything we thought that fit him or the game well enough. We tried things like turning him into a wall (sick Poppy / Vayne combos that never actually worked out heh), echoing earthquakes, etc. that all had some promise but just didn't work out as expected. Maybe we'll figure it out in the future. For Amumu, we think there's some small quality of life changes we can do, that could even go out in the fairly near future just to help modernize and clarify some of his current mechanics. But larger scale updates of his abilities are something for the later future. Rammus, although there are a lot of cool ideas in our heads, just needs a lot more love to fully realize the potential of his fast-rolling armordillo fantasy.
Lord Vec (EUNE)
: "Tap more into the cavalier / warleader fantasy" Rip Sejuani for me then, because this sounds terrible. I love Sejuani for her Ice/Frost Warrior theme not... whatever this will be.
She'll still have plenty of Frost Warrior, no need to worry.
Glarblar (NA)
: Are you guys doing any major work to {{champion:57}} or {{champion:78}} ? I ask b/c you've made consistent tweaks to each and am wondering if that is going to continue to be the case or if you are starting over on either of them?
Maokai is someone we think could use some work - he's a champion who has consistently dominated certain positions due to the raw power of his mechanics (particularly the insane tankiness from his R). We feel we can make Maokai a much more interesting, satisfying, and unique champion in the long run. Poppy, on the other hand, we don't feel needs much in terms of over-arching design changes. She has been tough to tune and maybe has a few extraneous mechanics here or there (her W deals magic damage to champions whose dashes she's stopped?!) that we can probably cut, but overall she brings really cool and unique moments to the game when played. As with our over-arching Tank goals, Poppy should probably be less of a damage threat than she has been in recent times.
: I've never seen a Sejuani top in years and can't imagine it would even be viable. Is this something that is being talked about so that she can have similar presence as Malphite, Nautilus, Cho and Sion up there? I think her biggest weakness in general is that she is so bad early she can't be in a lane and even the jungle is a nightmare if the enemy has a counterjungler that is even half decent because she can't fight back, her clear is slowish and her mana and health don't hold up real well on the first couple clears.
Our current thinking is that Sejuani should still be primarily a Jungler, though to be honest we haven't tested the waters much on how her changes affect her Top lane viability. Will have to wait and see.
: Before my thoughts on Sej, a more general question on tanks in the jungle. How are these changes to base damages and such going to affect them? I know there was comment on giving them jungle mob damage or something similar, but what about invades? Tanks already clear weakly compared to a lot of other junglers and I can it becoming meta to just invade a tank jungler over and over, especially in soloque where people aren't always paying attention/can be bothered to help out. The other slight concern as far as jungle clearing goes would be mana issues. Assuming damage is lower, it'll take more rotations of abilities to clear properly. This may be fixed by minion damage buffs, but still slightly concerning since it seems tanks are going to be very very focused on their ability usage. Anyways, I love Sejuani. I'm extremely excited to see her a big update champion. Somewhat worried, but excited. I don't often play her right now because I feel she's in a rather meh spot, but I figured I'd pitch in my thoughts and questions, if a bit late. I do feel that she is heavily barred around her ultimate usage and can't do much before six. Which is always a bad feeling when you want to impact the map but have to just farm it up to be relevant. This is in part, I feel, due to her ult carrying so much weight that it holds her back significantly pre-six. Her knock up and slow are passable for early ganks, but given she has no defenses and a slow clear early, she ends up with low HP just clearing the jungle which can make trying to gank dangerous. Despite this, playing her is extremely satisfying. Landing that five man ultimate feels so good and the sounds with it just let you know you've done your job. I'm not sure I really want to lose that. I understand it's a lot of her power budget, and with good reason, but I think it's going to be hard to compensate the loss of power in her ult while still making it feel like Sej. While I'm interested to see the changes that will come to her, especially making her fill more of that 'cavalier' role, I'm iffy on how exactly that's going to play out in a way that really would benefit her. And while she is a barbarian warlord, her mottos kind of go against the idea of buffing allies, I think. They wouldn't be with the Winter's Claw if they needed her help. I also think Sej's current item situation is a bit odd. She wants to build health and CD, but is quite limited in options with armor that way as the only CD reduction armor items she doesn't really synergize well with. She doesn't have the quick CDs to really make great use of IBG and I feel Randuin's Omen is a much better fit for her out of Warden's Mail than Frozen Heart, not to mention Deadman's Plate is still a pretty decent item as well for the engage potential, letting her get in range easier if she's foregone or sold Mobi Boots. With the nerfs to damage happening, is there thoughts to changing her health scaling and such as well? A final point of concern is the mention of synergizing with specific allies. I think this is a dangerous road to travel down. If this is going to be a focus of her new kit/play, it could really backfire and never (or rarely) be seen in use which is then just wasted power budget. The biggest thing I look forward to seeing changes is her passive. It's immensely unsatisfying and mediocre. Can't wait to see it go away. You should make Seju manaless :3
The changes to damage are more important for us to reduce later in the game rather than early on. Early in the game, most champions need base damages to interact with minions, monsters, and other champions especially during the laning phase of the game where there is much more reliance on 1v1 champion interactions and team dynamics haven't kicked in just yet. Will definitely monitor to make sure Tanks just don't get bullied out of the jungle by more aggressive counter-junglers, they should be able to hold their own when played well. Thanks for the in-depth write-up. Will keep in mind these concerns - but we probably won't make her manaless please don't be mad. >.>
: Half the reason I only play Sion jungle is because it's just too damn easy to dodge his...everything. Like, I understand that you want to make it outplayable by 'skilled opponents', but this just means that it'll be even more outplayable by 'people with lots of dashes.' Every time a champ gets less reliable stuff and more unreliable stuff, Yasuo gets buffed. And I'm generally opposed to Yasuo getting buffed.
Sion Q is a really extreme but clear example that is probably too unreliable. There are many ways to make Tank damage "unreliable," missable / dodgeble skillshots is only one avenue.
darkdill (NA)
: Leona's not going to be needing big changes, right? She's been solid for years. If anything, she sets the bar for Vanguards - great durability, great CC, great initiation power, weak damage.
Leona will probably be untouched. Maybe we can find some small QoL changes for her.
: I assume we will hear more about the other big 2 champs in the next two weeks? How many vanguards will be included in the small class update?
Unsure yet, still doing exploration. We may choose to do 0 small class updates if we don't feel like the changes are hitting the bar.
Thales (NA)
: I'm not quite a Sejuani main, but she's my second most-played champion, and one I feel very comfortable playing. When the tank update was announced, I was certain she'd be one of the very top picks for a rework, and she really could benefit a lot from one. I like playing her, but she is extremely generic. Here's some thoughts: * You say you want to play up the cavalier aspect, and while I agree that she very much fails to use the fact that she's riding a boar in her kit, I don't see her as a champion who offers the mobility I associate with cavaliers. Her Q dash is fine, but I'd be disappointed if she shifted to being more like, say, Kled. She should feel lumbering, if unstoppable. * Her ult, yes, eats way too much of her power budget, but consequently, it feels really good to use. I'm fine with it being toned down, but I'd strongly prefer the ability to still feel very satisfying to use, even if it does no damage or CCs for a shorter period. It also helps make her a fairly accessible jungler, which I like. * I recall some test changes going to PBE a year or so ago which had her synergizing with allied slow effects. Obviously, I don't know if this is the direction you all are planning to go. In general, with things like that that enhance a specific subset of champions, are you worried about that sealing off potentially good design space going forward?
We're definitely leaning towards a Heavy Cavalier fantasy, rather than the Light Cavalier one that Kled exudes. Her R will still be very powerful, we just want to give the heads up that it will no longer hold as much of the total power on the kit. We think the ally synergy we're building on Sejuani will be broad enough that it won't cause these types of issues, but I've been wrong before heh.
Ralanr (NA)
: You're saying that you'll be taking away the reliable damage and improving on CC and defensive capabilities. But you don't really lean towards putting any unreliable damage into a kit. Tanks (in my opinion) do need respectable damage early game to not only play in top lane, but also clear the jungle at a viable speed. How do you plan on approaching this? Especially since Sejuani's AoE power is her clearing tool.
There are 2 strategies we'll be applying. 1) Unreliable damage. More Tank damage will be put into damage that can be potentially outplayed by skilled opponents (think Sion Q). Good thing jungle monsters don't dodge. =) 2) Increasing damage dealt to jungle monsters. We don't mind having to slap on jungle damage multipliers to make PvP vs. PvE combat work correctly.
: I like some low CC high damage tanks like Mundo or Olaf. I don't think such a style of champ should be removed. Or am I perhaps misclassifying them?
We believe Mundo and Olaf to be more under the Fighters (Juggernauts and Divers), not Tanks (Vanguards and Wardens).
: Previously posted on the PBE: > Most tanks, if given more access to tankiness and utility inside of their kits, seem like they would just utilize these abilities as free stats and build more damage regardless. Is there any way that this will be addressed with these upcoming reworks? > > As always, thanks for the insight Solcrushed. =) As always, thanks for the insight Solcrushed. =)
We are looking into limiting their ability to access extraneous damage across the game. We also want to make sure Tank defenses synergize well with Tank itemization so Tanks feel good and find success in building Tanky. At the same time, we know Tanks have to deal some damage in order to just fundamentally function in the game. We just want to make sure that there is a clear delineation between Tanks and the more offensive Subclasses such as Divers, Juggernauts, etc.
: Okay, there are a couple of things... In a broad sense, can we have a discussion about the tank direction in general, separate from the specific focus champion topics? Moving along... > **Allow her to directly synergize with specific allies** > We’re looking to give Sejuani ways to directly augment the effectiveness of her allies. Instead of just augmenting all her allies, we want Sejuani to benefit specific allies in ways that will make her feel like a true barbarian warleader. > This sounds dangerous. If there is a unique interaction in game with specific allies, there are one of two ways this works out: either it's too weak for that interaction to really matter much, or it's so powerful (and takes up so much of her power budget) that said allies are mandatory. It's okay for certain champions to work well with one another (like Diana and Leona or Jarvan IV and Rumble) but specific forced synergy within her kit sounds dangerously close to the latter case, so I find that troubling. >**Create a clear and unique defensive profile** >We want tanks to be defined more by their defensive mechanics and Sejuani is no exception. As we reduce the amount of reliable damage she can put out, we want to change her passive so it is both more character defining and appreciable. > Can you explain what you mean by this in more detail? For example, when I think of a more interactive defensive profile, the first things that spring to mind are like Vi and Camille's shield passives: mitigating damage with a condition. You also mentioned reduced reliable damage output as apart of her defensive profile, which... doesn't make a whole lot of sense..?
The group of champions that Sejuani will synergize with will be broad enough that we won't run into the whole Cassiopeia + Teemo / Singed combinations. We want each Tank to feel like they have their own way off shrugging off incoming damage. Sejuani's Passive will be a defining defensive mechanic on her kit that she will want to optimize and opponents will want to play around.
: What do you mean with "directly syngise with specific allies" Specific classes? Champions? Ranged vs melee? Would this interactivity replace her current passive? If you keep her Q, perhaps intergrate a stack system for every champ she inflicts CC on (4 stack) enhancing the next spell. Eg her Q charge leaves a slow field in it's wake (as she is the melee CC queen) On the subject of her passive. I understand that stat sticks aren't optimal. But I feel it's what allows her to function admist the team fights. But it also allows her to duel ad champs a bit too well (particularly adcs) lategame (based on season 6). Would love to see gristle become bigger, larger tusks and more hairy. Perhaps you could look into giving gristle more spells (not just Q) This is just me being balsy but perhaps a unique interaction with kled. Lastly thanks so much for this announcement. Give us who are passionate about tanks a chance to voice their concerns/opinions
Happy to finally let you guys know what we've been up to. I'll let SolCrushed weigh in on the Sejuani kit himself. We're currently in production on all the big 3 Tank kits as we speak, so nothing is yet fully concrete and we don't want to give you guys any promises we can't keep.
Dreampod (NA)
: Sounds interesting and as one of the few people who play her now I'm excited and terrified to see her rework since it will have to be substantial since you guys basically are unhappy with everything except her Q. I do have one question regarding to the Tank update in general that I think it's worth addressing now and keeping in mind as the work goes forward. If you are reducing tank damage are tanks going to be relegated to the top lane or will you be giving them customized traits that will allow them to clear the jungle despite not doing real damage?
We intend for Tanks to be able to Top, Jungle, or Support depending on the champion. If we have to put in mechanics that deal increased damage to jungle monsters to enable certain champions to Jungle, we'll do it.
RaamEsirote (EUNE)
: How many tanks are you guys doing? Big 4 again or more like 5 or 6?
We're looking to do even less. We're going to do 3 big updates. We're currently in the process of exploring smaller scale changes for other Tanks, but 1 mistake we've felt about past updates is that we forced out too many small scale updates that didn't hit the mark. Look for us to reduce the amount of mini-updates we do as well.
Sahn Uzal (EUW)
: > We’re adding more skill expression to Tank combat patterns, for themselves as well as their opponents. We’re looking to offer more points of play and counterplay and reward players for mastering them. So everybody gets to be Sion? :^) Sounds good to me! > We’re reducing the amount of reliable damage that Tanks bring to the game and instead amplifying their defensive and crowd control capabilities. We want to ensure that the tanks are correctly valued for the right reasons and definitively set them apart from their offensive counterparts. I assume this will mainly be done through changes to Grasp, and their Itemisation? (Sunfire Cape, Iceborn etc) You guys said you wouldn't be touching Sion Directly with this update, so I'm guessing that's how it'll effect the Vanguards that won't receive any direct changes... Sounds fine to me.
No intention of touching Sion. This class update will probably touch the least amount of champions so far and instead focus on doing high himpact work on specific champions who will help define the future of the class. We're hoping our adjustments to systems such as base stats and items will do the heavy lifting in terms of creating overarching change for the class and game at large.
MinaZer0 (NA)
: first :D omggg {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} >We’re reducing the amount of reliable damage that Tanks bring to the game and instead amplifying their defensive and crowd control capabilities. We want to ensure that the tanks are correctly valued for the right reasons and definitively set them apart from their offensive counterparts. Does this mean changes of certain tank items? Also make her passive an AOE slow in her vicinity. LUL
There will be some adjustment to Tank itemization, but we're not sure yet to what extent. We don't want to kill iconic items like Sunfire Cape, but we know that it's dangerous to lump too much of a champion's damage output into ambient AoE damage with no play for either side.
kolpy99 (NA)
: @Riot, a big thanks
Thanks! We appreciate the support, we'll try our best to keep making the game better and better. Cheers!
  Comentários de Rioters
: please tell me she won't have any % damage or true damage or 3 hits passive I'm so hyped for the rework tough. Can't wait to try it out when it comes out
She currently dose not have any % HP damage, true damage, or 3 hit passives. No promises though. =)
: So scared, but also so hyped ; - ; A few questions, will her W be changed entirely? Will her E have a new passive to contradict the removal of the 15% damage reduction? Will her Q/R still remain multiple target spells? Concerning her E and what I've gathered from the post, it's clear you guys want to make her less of a do or die champion concerning jumping headfirst into team fights. Whether that's through lowering the cooldown or giving a new way to reset I suppose we'll have to wait and see! Thank you and take care of Kat ; _ ; (Sorry if you can't answer all these by the way, I'm just so curious!)
Her W is being changed entirely, but we also plan to keep the current W elsewhere on the kit. Her E doesn't really have a new passive but will interact very integrally with the rest of this new kit. We don't feel it's necessary to preserve the arbitrary damage reduction mechanic given the amount of mobility we are adding to her kit. There's no need to reduce the damage taken if you're not there to take it in the first place. Her Q and R will remain multiple target spells. In fact, R is largely unchanged outside of some re-balancing.
Landorin (NA)
: I have a more general question about the goals of these reworks, which was stewing in the back of my head for a bit but this post in particular made me wonder enough to ask... If assassin kill time is being increased, do you think there's going to be enough to disincentivize picking other bursty, but non-assassin champs like Annie, Jarvan, or others and just using their low time-to-kill instead? The common thread between the Talon, Rengar, and Leblanc reworks seems to be that they'll have some kind of mobility or outplay spell to compensate for the slower burst, but I'm just wondering why I would pick a Leblanc with slower burst when I can play Annie, flash obliterate someone so quickly that it's not reactable, and take objectives off of that instead. I also worry a bit that if you give their new utility/mobility/whatever too much power, you end up with champs more like Zed or Fizz who are probably perfectly balanced, but also cause a lot of frustration to people playing against them, particularly if they don't understand their intended weaknesses which may not necessarily be obvious. Any thoughts on that?
This is a really good insight and frankly something we'll have to just find out. The difference between an Assassin and Annie is simply the reliability by which they can get to high priority targets. Like you said Annie likely has to blow Flash to do her burst combo on the right person. So the ability to close to the target and get out of sticky situations is what sets them apart. If slightly reducing the burst window and instead opting for more mobility / utility / survivability tricks ends up creating more frustrating Assassins, then we'll have to go back to the drawing board. Personally, I'm fairly confident that we're going to find a sweet spot where Assassins still feel swift and deadly but opponents feel like they had a chance even if it was low.
: I came in here expecting to be terrified but honestly your guy's vision for her is pretty similar to mine. This rework set is scary because I love LB and Kat. Anyway, I think the emphasis on deception is a great direction for her, as I too found it peculiar how her theme is illusionist, yet her main tactic was to throw herself at you. That said, I really hope you guys keep her ult, or at least the spirit of her ult, as having a low cool down double cast on any ability can lead to such cool combos, and is what makes her a complex and hard to play champion. If her ult is removed, I feel like Leblanc won't really be Leblanc (or is that the point?)
We're definitely keeping the idea of Mimic, but we're giving it a little twist that will make her combos more flexible.
Nibiria (NA)
: Repertoir, before you touch Shaco, are you planning on talking to Lucent or Chinese Jester? Both of them are mega-high ELO (D1+) Shaco mains who have been playing him since season 3 or earlier. I think they could have some good input and if I trust anyone to give input on a rework it'd be those two. It's not that I don't trust you guys, it's just...Shaco is very niche and I don't think anyone on the playtesting team has enough games on him to know how he does in certain scenarios and the nuances that might be lost if certain abilities were reworked. And he's my favorite champion and I don't want that to change.
Passing this on to 20thCenturyFaux who is doing some preliminary exploration on Shaco. Shaco is unfortunately not one of the big Assassins this round - we think he deserves a full VGU to really feel complete. Despite that we want to see if we can put in some design work to make his and his opponents lives more enjoyable for the time being. Can't promise anything here, but we're looking into what we can do for Shaco.
Flemman (EUW)
: will item be touched too? seeing ghostblade beeing good as first/second buy on 90% of the ad rooster start to be really boring and kinda take away the uniqueness of the "old" user
We're definitely making a pass on some items. It's going to be less than the 2 previous projects (Marksmen and Mages) by a significant margin though.
333 (EUNE)
: What about Rengar? Will he still have his invisibility and burst? Please answer.
Sparhten (NA)
: Will we see any changes to ahri in this update being that her secondary role of a assassin isnt really filled all that well?
Unlikely. We don't consider her a core Assassin and she already stands out pretty well from the pack.
: So Malzahar had the 1st one of these threads for the mage updates and was the biggest project. Hell Malz had the spotlight in the reveal. does this mean that Talon will be getting the biggest changes of the Assassin Update?
All of the big Assassins are getting significant changes. We opted this time to go for bigger changes with less champions touched.
Arildo123 (EUNE)
: Just asking, what about this one{{champion:38}} ? Is he getting anything this update???
Not currently planned. We think Kassadin is in a decent spot both in terms of game health and uniqueness.
ryoh (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Statikk,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=EjFNREfn,comment-id=001d0000,timestamp=2016-08-04T23:39:47.238+0000) > > 1. Yes we will be removing the blink. Unfortunately, you'll have to wait and see what it is replaced with. > > 2. Even though he's losing some strengths, Talon's mobility will now become a lot more flexible. And by a lot I mean A LOT. > > 3. Yes, he will definitely have some new animations. We're not re-hauling all of them though. > > 4. This is cool to hear, I think having Mobi's as a cool option is great, we don't want to force him to wear them every game though. Will keep this in mind. > > 5. It's changing into something a whole lot more. =) Sad to hear that his blink is going to be gone. Flash + E was one of my favorite things in the game...I see that mobility will be a primary identity of Talon now. I'm glad to see that you are confident with his changes, and I'm interested to see what type of mobility you are adding. Is this new in the game, or have we seen it with other champs?
It's something old with a new twist, a significant new twist.
Veraska (NA)
: Did you guys already announce the big updates? I'm deadly curious to know who is next on the update list
ryoh (NA)
: Hello, thanks for this. As a D2 Talon mains for 3 seasons, I and a few other Talon mains have questions: 1. Is this a confirmation for the removal of a blink in his kit? What type of mobility will Talon have now? 2. Since Talon can already oneshot most carries + AOE, and the AoE will be tuned down, is this rework generally a nerf? What tradeoffs are happening? 3. Will he have new animations? 4. I don't agree with mobis being core on Talon. Many of the high elo Talon mains opt for either swifties, merc, tabi, cdr boots, etc...I myself rarely bought them. Does data support the statement that mobis are core on Talon? 5. Is blink turning into a dash of some sort? 6. Talon right now is very binary, and he goes in with a pretty similar combo each time. Will this update change the complexity of his kit significantly? Thanks.
1. Yes we will be removing the blink. Unfortunately, you'll have to wait and see what it is replaced with. 2. Even though he's losing some strengths, Talon's mobility will now become a lot more flexible. And by a lot I mean A LOT. 3. Yes, he will definitely have some new animations. We're not re-hauling all of them though. 4. This is cool to hear, I think having Mobi's as a cool option is great, we don't want to force him to wear them every game though. Will keep this in mind. 5. It's changing into something a whole lot more. =)
: Hello again! Thanks for keeping us updated, even with individual champions. I play Talon very frequently, and he has been my most played champion across 3 seasons. I have a load of confidence when it comes to the reworks. My favorites so far are Poppy and Fiora. Now that you guys have settled more in on a direction for Talon, I have a few concerns and questions, if you don't mind expanding upon. 1. Do you plan on changing his lore and character? Pretty much all of his lore is not tied to the League, but I can see if you wanted to change a few points. Personally, I am a fan of how he realizes the importance of the bond he made with House Du'Couteau when the summoner in his judgement points out how his chase of Du'Couteau goes against his values he made on the street. 2. Concerning his tendency to roam, I think Talon is indeed a roamer, but I would say Swifties are now more popular among dedicated players than Mobis due to the prevalence of Rylai's and the fact that Mobis are easily canceled by minor things like a caster minion. Do you plan on making similar changes to Mobis as you did with Strut? Also, I believe part of the reason Talon has become more of a roamer was due to the silence change 2 years back, which stunted his duelist ability. Is the team planning to maintain his identity as one of the fastest snowballers? 3. Extending his burst window is a great change I think. Talon as being an instakill was definitely a perk, but it also meant that if you did not have the numbers to kill someone, you just were not able to without having your allies set you up or dropping a few Rakes. It made gameplay rather linear. 4. The removal of a lot of his AoE is understandable, but I personally think a lot of his AoE gave a certain thrill to the character. Some of the most thrill inducing plays are casting Cutthroat to a minion and then blowing up 3 people standing in the wrong place. It's not something you can do often, but it feels amazing. 5. Difficulty seems to increase with reworks, with the exceptions of Poppy and Ryze who maintain their levels of difficulty. I am not opposed to difficulty, as my second favorite character is probably Ekko, but I feel Talon is a champion not so much about mechanical decision making, as he is about macroplay. The identity of surgeon with blades is sounds like a fine concept, but it worries me that he might be going in a direction that turns him into a stealth version of Zed. 6. Do you plan on making his character design of being able to take on many opponents at once part of his gameplay? Or perhaps move him in an anti-assassin assassin direction, due to his ability to respond with being jumped by Noxian guilds so easily? Most Talon mains I know are in favor of a rework, but as a load of us play the champion frequently, some even near exclusively, it is a bit worrying to see the fact that there will be change. Even so, the team on reworks hasn't really had a big flop yet, so I don't think there will be an issue. Plus Talon's current identity gameplay wise is a bit of a mess, so that gives you guys freedom of direction, so things can go anywhere. Thanks for reading!
1. Unfortunately we currently don't have any plans to significantly adjust his lore. 2. Boots of Mobility is probably something we can follow up with the Systems / Live teams. I personally love the feel of it on Talon as it makes him unique, but we don't really want to force Talon to have to buy it. 5. We've been pretty cognizant to keep Talon fairly low intensity when it comes to complexity of inputs. He will definitely not feel like playing Zed. 6. None of his gameplay mechanics reflect the ability to perform when outnumbered or when being hunted. We didn't feel like that was necessarily a significant part of the player fantasy that Talon brings to the table.
: I was worried when you guys announced the Malzahar rework because he's one of my mains and I was concerned about what you might do to him as I thought he was in a perfect spot already - thankfully he turned out pretty good. But with Talon...he's just so fucking bad right now that I am more than happy for you to have carte blanche with him. As another of my mains, I adore his identity (especially as a rival to Zed), so as long as you keep that and his unhealthy obsession with knives then I'll be happy.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. We feel pretty good with the current Talon direction, excited to get it out to you guys.
Decrit (EUW)
: Just say it immediately doc How many 3 hit passives? ( kidding, really intrested on how this will roll over :3 )
It's somewhat disturbing how often 3 is the right # for gameplay. *Sigh*
: Please don't change him much visually, so I don't have to throw away my Renegade Talon cosplay I spent months on please <3
No plans. But good luck trying to cosplay the new gameplay we're going to add. =D
Mansana (NA)
: Wouldn't making his assassination take longer take away his identity of stealth and quick kills? I understand it's not healthy for the game (e.g. Rengar) but if the direction you described were to continue forward would that mean you guys are looking into giving him a new identity over the generic "I'm the Assassin's Creed league champ"? If his way of killing is gonna change then I might as well see him get an escape tool or gain some other "edge" when he get's unlucky. Certain situations seem good to go in but in a fast paced environment where anything can happen he needs to be able to pull off his combos quick and do his job or he is completely useless.
Talon will still be burst-y, all of the Assassins will since that defines who they are. We're talking about the difference between 0.5 seconds and 1.5 seconds in a lot of these cases. We think giving enemies that extra second allows them an opportunity to react with tools like Zhonya's or allowing an ally to save them. He will definitely be getting a pretty cool new tool that will help him both chase and escape. Talon's mobility is going to be a lot less 1-dimensional with this update.
: Will this update also make him more unique visually and thematically, or will it be strictly gamelay-focused and Talon will continu to be the Assassin's Creed guy?
It's largely gameplay with some animation, sound effects, and visual effects. We aren't re-designing his model the way the VGUs do. He'll still look like the Talon you've come to know - he'll just do some pretty new and cool things.
: I ask that you please don't ruin talon's identity, a lot of the champs you've reworked (ones I've mained coincidentally) have been completely altered and not in a sense that they're weaker but they generally don't feel the same anymore, please don't do this to talon aswell. _Sincerly_ _A **Talon** Main_
Can you give us some insight into what you consider to be Talon's current identity?
: This made my day literally. I love Talon and he deserves changes so i am very excited for what you are bringing to us. But a question: **Is his passive finally changing?? ** Please reply. {{champion:91}} Mastery 7 - Talon Main
: Not a huge fan of nerfing rek'sai's tremor sense. That mechanic is part of her appeal. Feels weird to nerf the most unique and interesting part of her kit.
You're right that it's definitely the most unique part of Rek'Sai and it's super thematic as well. The biggest issue with Tremor Sense is that it lacks context and situations where it is particularly powerful. It's universally effective and has basically infinite uptime that it takes up the majority of Rek'Sai's power budget - this makes it really hard to make her a holistically satisfying gameplay experience. I think if we can just find a way to make Tremor Sense ultra powerful all the time or find ways to gate or constrain its usage a bit more - it would go a long way to making her healthier in the long run.
: Lovely.. "Assassins shouldn't be able to kill their enemy in the blink of an eye". - This cant be done if the carry actually builds ONE piece of armor. Now you will remove our burst damage and make us absolutely useless? There are counters to an assassin, as a shaco only player its called a pink ward, staying next to your tanks, being aware of the situation. I mean come on. Whatever you're about to do here Riot is going to ruin the assassin class, and theyre already underplayed.
Just want to clarify here since there seems to be a lot of worry here, and reasonably so. **ASASSINS WILL STILL BE BURSTY**. By definition, this is why they exist and what they do. We are simply talking about degrees here - the difference between a full damage combo coming out in <0.25 seconds to ~1 second - that's still very fast. Yet the amount of game health we gain here by allowing for SOME interaction to occur at all is invaluable. In a lot of these cases, we don't plan on reducing the raw potential burst damage, rather we're looking to open that time window just a slight bit. In fact in some of these cases, the raw damage done if executed to perfection may actually be able to be ultimately tuned higher than before since it won't be 100% instantly reliable.
CrazyMLC (NA)
: This might sound weird, but have you ever considered a new health mechanic for champions where you can only take a certain amount of damage per second? [I'm thinking Earthbound here](http://earthbound.wikia.com/wiki/Rolling_Meter), where if you take fatal damage you can still act while your health counter is ticking down. That could be a pretty healthy change to make sure there's some _always_ time for a response to immediate burst. It'd be like 1k health a second, or a % of max health, or a mixture of both, or something. (damage ticks down at 500+50% max health per second?)
We haven't, but that sounds like a really cool Passive for a new champion.
: I'm pretty confident your ability to handle this update gracefully, your last decisions on assassins have all been remarkably solid, particularly Kha'Zix's changes in patch 4.6. he's just as feast or famine as the other assassins in the game but the isolation mechanic and him being centered around it so made his burst much less binary than other assassins in the game, and opened up windows for him to get himself back into the game, get himself shut down through smart positioning of his enemies, as well as build team comps centered around enabling (gragas, Amumu, Lee Sin, etc.) or denying isolation itself. (braum, lulu, janna, Annie etc.) What are the thoughts currently on him balance wise? do you think he needs his focus shifted back towards his evolutions or are you planning on keeping the main gameplay shtick his isolation and the evolutions secondary?
Most of the opportunity space on Kha'Zix lies in making his Evolution choices more meaningful, interesting, and exciting. Kha'Zix is unlikely to get anything too significant since he's already in a decent spot, but hopefully we get a chance to spice up some of the less enticing Evolutions.
: Wait, I thought Ekko was a skirmisher? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list Does the skirmisher class even exist? What exactly separates them from assassins and divers? And if there is an actual skirmisher subclass why is Ekko no longer considered a skirmisher and how are the other skirmisher not also mis-categorized?
As said in that Subclass List thread, the list is not law and tries to reflect the current state of affairs. The only certainty we have with Ekko is that he is intended to live somewhere in the Slayer space (squishy melee damage dealer). Ekko has easily been one of the most controversial when it comes to categorization because he does so many different things effectively. Once again the list of candidates was simply that - a list of possible candidates. If we think we can and should make Ekko into a healthy Assassin with a few changes, we may consider it.
: I would like to know why Diana is considered a "Diver". I know a Red posted that going by the Tags on the Champion Info isnt always correct. Like when they said "just because having assassin tag on their info doesnt mean we will touch the champ". Her tags are considered Fighter, Mage. Its quite interesting since her playstyle is more of an Assassin with her burst combo, and then her Fighter aspect with her Innate Atk Spd Steroid/melee range, Tankiness and her Ability to absorb dmg with her Shield. She is considered a carbon copy of Akali but just a better, "less windowed needed time to burst".
Hey Daiana, That's a great question and here's my best answer for you. Assassins are meant to be extremely fragile but nimble, avoiding damage by simply being (or not being) in the right place at the right time. Assassins also have the mobility to both get in and out of sticky situations - being able to disengage safely from risky propositions is a staple of an Assassin. Diana is a champion whose thematic and identity suggest that she should be much more brute force in nature. Diana is a champion about conviction, she finds her moment, rushes into the battle then remains in the fray until the very bitter end. Diana was always meant to be more of a Fighter-type champion - this is reflected in mechanics like her W shield and her Passive which incentivize her to get into the heart of the battle and duke it out over time. Unfortunately, we've never been able to really achieve that gameplay fantasy on her. Instead, Diana has always been far burstier and squishier than intended and thus now reflects a fairly unhealthy Assassin pattern that is extremely reliant on snowballing or feeling completely useless. Akali is the opposite story. A champion who was meant to be an Assassin but has always benefited extremely well from tankier / fighter type builds due to having out-of-place mechanics such as Spell Vamp or massive Armor and Magic Resist buffs. An easy kind of Assassin litmus test I use is the following: would it make sense (both mechanically and thematically) for this champion to have a reliable escape / disengage button? For Akali, I think the answer is yes. For Diana, I don't think it makes as much sense.
Statikk (NA)
: Next Class Update - the Assassins
Just to help give you guys a better idea of the pool of champions we're talking about, here's a list of Assassins we are currently considering as candidates: * Akali * Ekko * Evelynn * Fizz * Kassadin * Katarina * Kha'Zix * LeBlanc * Rengar * Shaco * Talon * Zed Note that this is not a guarantee that any specific champion will get changes - we're still exploring which champions will best fit this update.
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