: The entire conversation went over your head. Games are designed AROUND the concept of Chess or Rock vs Scissors (Simplified Chess). Also, you're ignoring that's EXACTLY WHAT EVERY OTHER LANE IS! Mid is almost never Mage vs Mage; It's Mage vs Assassin. Bot is strategized around Support who counters ADC or counters Support or Both. Well practiced matches = Almost always the counters win bot lane. Jungle is designed around counterplay It's only top who feels they are entitled to non-champ select play.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vNL9RXH,comment-id=00040000000000000001,timestamp=2020-02-19T03:19:01.555+0000) > > It's only top who feels they are entitled to non-champ select play. That's cause the position often is left on an island, functioning independent and away from the rest of the game. Especially in the dragon-focused game that currently exist, JG's are spending most if not all of there time bot lane. It's very possible to play top lane and never see another player until Baron spawns.
: Farming is fine but freezing lanes and only focusing on YOUR lane is outdated. Honestly farming isn't even that important. One can bring up $ compared to kills/assists but such doesn't factor in what your teammates are going through or dealing with. For example Ever played top lane and had this score board - 0 kills 4 deaths and 0 assists but was up +70cs compared to your opponent? Do you think your teammates will say, ' Wow, you are up 70 cs' and just move on? NO! People only care and look at K/D/A! No one gives a s$it about how much CS you have. You freeze the lane all you are doing is creating a bigger wave to hit your tower to give your lane opponent free $ from turret plating. While you freeze your lane and such your lane opponent is constantly roaming and ganking your teammates' lanes.... and god forbid your teammate dies........" GG" with the usual ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? even if you already pinged "missing" they will still give you the ?????????????????????????????????????????????? with the " Follow your lane" so the point of freezing is pointless by that logic, isn't it? Shove your lane to the enemy tower and roam...... try to fight as much as possible because League is snowballed easier now than ever.... and since kills/deaths are so often, "Tilt" plays a major factor in league today also, as well as shorter games because of tilt and how snowballed league is. You will have games decided by either the two at the 20 min mark. Scoreboards like, 10 kills to 2 at the 10 min mark is close to impossible to NOT have your teammates wanting to surrender. In the past 2013 -2017 everyone talked about "late game" " late game" we can comeback and "we got scaling champions" "scaling runes per level" etc.... " late game" is the 20-25 min mark these days.........by the time you get donen upgrading your ward item, getting your 2nd/3rd item .....the game is either OVER or had already been decided beforehand. Just shove your lane and roam....TRY to CS and try to get your lane tower ....but just group at mid ASAP... it's called "NAAram" or "clown fiestas" but Riot made League this way to begin with. Solo Q isn't LCS/LEC or LPL.....there is no shame in having an Aram at the 10-15 min mark these days because that's what everyone does.....and that's what's expected! Fighting 24/7
wow... my worst fears have been realized. If clown fiestas are EXPECTED... I'm beyond sad. I need time to digest this. I've invested almost a decade into this game, and to see it devolve into this kills me. BTW, what's your OP.gg?
Subdue (NA)
: The average wave is worth about 355 gold. That means a kill + assist is worth only slightly more than farming a full wave. In other words, farming well is just as important as it's always been. However, I think players on average are better now than they were a few years ago, and are more willing to punish passivity.
I'm sorry, but Your math doesn't work. Perfect farm first wave > 3 melee @21g + 3 ranged @14g = 105 gold. I wish you were right =)
: The most important right now is to give advantage to your team. Farm is important, but give an advantage to your jungler in exchange of some gold, is more important.
I will gladly help JG on objectives. I prefer it to fighting in lane. I'm trying to determine if I can focus on farming to win games, or do I HAVE to constantly fight in lane to have an impact?
IVSakenz (NA)
: It is because RIOT took all the focus off of lanes and put it into jungle and the neutral mobs that inhabit it.. soraka and sona are being played top because they do not need to win lane to be effective.. they can be behind in cs.. lose towers early.. even feed the opposing laner, and still be an asset to the team during team fights etc... No lane really matters if you win it or not initially.. not if your getting every dragon and baron.. because when team fights happen you can take a full lane down and be at nexus within the 30 second respawn timer after you ace the opposing team.. and it all boils down to the fact that damage is way to high across the board... except turrets... they do next to nothing and need a major buff... turrett diving at level 6 should not be a thing...
> [{quoted}](name=IVSakenz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vNL9RXH,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2020-02-18T00:34:34.738+0000) > > It is because RIOT took all the focus off of lanes and put it into jungle and the neutral mobs that inhabit it.. > and it all boils down to the fact that damage is way to high across the board... except turrets... they do next to nothing and need a major buff... turrett diving at level 6 should not be a thing... 2 different ways to solve the turret dive issue: 1. Turret damage should be changed to deal flat true damage + bonus damage based on target Max HP. Discourage solo dives regardless of assassins or tanks. Turrets have not kept up with the damage creep. Dives should be a example of solid teamwork and juggling aggro. 2. Turret plating should also increase the player's defensive stats when they are under tower. more plates + more bonus defenses. discourages dives because you become VERY difficult to kill under a healthy tower, but gives an alternative by encouraging taking plates. This also helps put a focus on laning and farming, even when being pushed in.
IVSakenz (NA)
: I agree that the damage creep has gotten out of control..we just need a 25% damage nerf across the board.. and they need to nerf all these items that add 7 different things at once to a champ.. attack damage/slow/shield/hit pionts/add damage to basic attacks.. there are a large number of champs that become impossible to deal with after they get a second item because they have pluses to every stat and passive effects at the same time
Damage creep is the only creep that seems to be unkillable #damagecreepkillsgames
Comentários de Rioters
Comentários de Rioters
: What about newer players, or players who played in the past and came back? It's fun to play ranked because it feels more cooperative. Meaning people are more strategic, educated etc. I play ranked cause I feel I'll get better playing smarter players rather than playing versus people of my skill level. I learn by failing. Or by watching people who know what their doing. You'll always get people with lower skill levels to play with. Always get trolls, always get smurfs. Do your best, if you see so.eone with trouble give then advice, flank more often, offer a tip" nice try, maybe I'd you tried this ...." If you're always stuck with shit players, the games balanced enough for the other team to have equally skilled players, for the most part. So.etimes the other team in general is better, and the shittier players do well because of the better players.
> [{quoted}](name=PhyreTrukk,realm=NA,application-id=GgNYATV4,discussion-id=gfIeEOlR,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2020-02-05T02:22:13.983+0000) > > What about newer players, or players who played in the past and came back? > It's fun to play ranked because it feels more cooperative. Meaning people are more strategic, educated etc. Holy crap you are delusional. Ranked is the opposite of cooperative. Ranked is "I hope I got the smurf this game" because matchmaking is broken. There is NO coordination or communication between players, just question mark pings as your Soraka top tries to solo Baron. I wish people were more strategic and educated. but soloq is a cesspool. Try to draft based around team comp? get flamed. > I play ranked cause I feel I'll get better playing smarter players rather than playing versus people of my skill level. > I learn by failing. Or by watching people who know what their doing. WHO are you watching? I've been watching high-level Youtube and twitch folks for years. I can't replicate their success. > > You'll always get people with lower skill levels to play with. Always get trolls, always get smurfs. > Do your best, if you see so.eone with trouble give then advice, flank more often, offer a tip" nice try, maybe I'd you tried this ...." I've never seen telling people how to get better in-game be effective. I have seen people receive chat bans for "helping". > If you're always stuck with shit players, the games balanced enough for the other team to have equally skilled players, for the most part. > So.etimes the other team in general is better, and the shittier players do well because of the better players. You must be playing a different game than I. Where is this balanced matchmaking you speak of? I'd love to play a game of equal players. hell, i'd settle for a game where everyone stays connected past twenty minutes.
: You do know that MF is also getting nerfed due to her being too strong right? Whereas morgana is often times regarded as one of the most balanced champions in the game. "Power budget" is this term that people love to throw around but I highly doubt most even know what it is ot how it should even be used.
Don't understand why people say MF is too strong. The nerf is a baby hit to her A.SPD. and Morg is so balanced that the didn't touch her at all yet completely redid Kayle a few years back.
: Rune pages do not load correctly
Had it happen to me in ranked, grasp magically turned to comet and the blue premade page. but its a client issue, so will never be fixed.
Cdore (NA)
: Why are Juggernauts Anti-Tanks?
Not all Juggs are Sett. He's is **designed** to be a Tank-buster. Q has bonus damage based on enemy Max Health, W is true damage, and R's damage scales with enemy bonus health. Legit 3/4 skills hit tanks harder than carries. Taken from the Fandom page on Juggs: "Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility." People pick tanks to have an impact late, when team fights are a much bigger deal. They utilize their CC to either peel for ADC's or lock down the opponent. They take time to get tanky, but can be invaluable. Sett (for better or worse) **also** has gap-closer in his Q, a monster shield on the W, and a mutli-man stun on his E, making him relevant regardless of the game state. Other Juggs either have their damage fall off {{champion:86}} {{champion:122}} or need time to get their damage scaling up {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}}. Sett starts our tough, and really never drops off. As for the question at the end of the OP: Riot actively hates silences, mana-burns, etc. There has never been a mana-burn skill in the game to my knowledge, and only a select few have silences left: {{champion:53}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:16}}. {{champion:91}} {{champion:7}} and {{champion:38}} all had their silences removed years ago.
Comentários de Rioters
: Will League EVER return to slower gameplay?
The answer is no. League is more concerned with growing esports viewership, which means keeping games short, explosive, and devoid of strategy. I have been frustrated for a VERY long time, but its never changing.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sycoblast69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-10T03:41:30.890+0000) > > We all know LOL balance is a joke. But everyone has different opinions on how to best address the issue. Attempting to sharpen Champ Identities and Builds are probably a good place to start. So what lever best helps to improve the state of the game? > > Whenever Tanks are mentioned, Off-tanks/Bruisers ({{champion:86}} , {{champion:122}} , {{champion:266}} , etc) are NOT included. Tanks are champs like {{champion:36}} , {{champion:32}} , {{champion:12}} , etc. > > 1. Increase Base tank stats for tanks, and have more skills scale with tank stats. > 2. Decrease base damages on mage supports ({{champion:63}} {{champion:143}} etc., NOT enchanters like {{champion:267}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:37}} > 3. AD / AP Assassin skills scale with Lethality / MPen, and more item selections for armor and MR Busting. > 4. Increase costs (CD and/or Mana) for dashes/blinks/movement abilities. > 5. Lower Costs (CD and/or Mana) for CC/Displacement skills on Tank kits. > 6. Make Jungle clear difficulty scale harder. (Damage +, health +) > 7. Increase the "control" part of control mages. > 8. Standardize Grievous Wounds to 50% Heal Reduction for 4 seconds. > 9. Give alternate build paths for {{item:3123}} and {{item:3191}} . > 10. Remove ward cap, but trinket CD no longer decreases with level. > > > There are reasons behind each suggestion, and I will post them if you folks want me to. > > EDIT: Lots of good ideas in the comments, but can y'all please use the poll? maybe pick the one that most closely resembles your thoughts? =) I would fix jungle. Balance gold and exp between all camps, red is currently too loaded. Change the respawn times to 2:00 on camps. Get rid of the bomb plants. Increase Rift Scuttler initial spawn OR lower the gold/exp gained from it. Reduce plate gold from botlane towers. I think a lot of the overreaching problems in the game are directly the result of a broken jungle.
Jungle is def busted at the moment. I saw a video a while back that made the argument that full clears are worse than just repeating red+scuttle over and over, and had math to back it up. Full Clears should always be more beneficial than half clears!
: buff hp across the board. also, this one is experimental, give every champion an optional unique item, similar to rango's {{champion:107}} release spec bone tooth necklace with scaling rewards for completing kills or getting assists. boom suddenly a MEW dimension of balance IT WOULD BE amazing maybe in season 20.
That would be very cool! They have managed to keep {{champion:112}} {{item:3198}} in, so it has precedence.
: I see what you mean, but I think there is a flaw in your explanation. For example, you explained that Dr. Mundo is a warden for you, since Dr. Mundo can body block CC and damage for his team. I _could_ agree with that, if Dr. Mundo's gameplay would actually reflect protecting allies. But it doesn't. A wardens main objective is to protect their allies. In a teamfight, Dr. Mundo usually does not stay in front of his allies trying to actively body block for his squishies. He activates his ult and then charges into the enemy team with his increased movement speed. And he tries to go actively for the enemy squishies and kill them as long as his ultimate is active. Dr. Mundo's main objective is to deal damage, to **kill**, not to protect his squishies from threats. His ult and his tenacity are tools for him to achieve that goal. Nasus actually does some fair amount of damage, too, in my opinion. And a single target slow does not really qualify as a vanguard, imo.
I've just never ever seen a Mundo actually kill another champ. I'm sorry, but this is why I don't think Riot's Juggernaut label is right. Not enough damage to be a threat. As far as Nasus is concerned, I did say the damage is there, but that it is usually too late to matter. And one single target slow usually doesn't qualify except his is the BEST, maxing out at 95% MS reduction. Agree to disagree?
: > [{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZPLTEpIL,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-10T04:54:08.073+0000) > > This is true, but Noxus actually is not the only region with a similar problem. > > Bandle City: no jungler > Ixtal: no ADC > Piltover: no support > Shurima: no support > Mount Targon: no ADC > Void: no support > > So there are quite some regions which are still not able to build a complete functional team. Hope that Riot will fill out these roles for the regions soon, especially for the regions with a low champion count in the first place..... Well Zaun kinda has no top except for singed but is he really even a champion, no one knows what do with him.
{{champion:36}} Literally called the Madman of Zaun
Zardo (NA)
: Dear junglers, firmly pull your head right out of your ass. I'm so fucking sick of the same thing every game. "omg why is their mid here, gg report mid"- me being kayle into talon after furiously spam pinging "Lol r%%%%%ed bot lane" - when our mid was dead and the enemy mid had rotated, yet the jungler still tried to go for scuttle I've played jungle, I get that it gets tons of unnecessary flame, but honestly, junglers also flame the most. It's not just a jungler issue, it's a people being toxic in general issue. It's a blame game issue.
League is, has, and will probably always be toxic. /muteall for the wins
Sirsir (NA)
: That wouldn't work since most supports these days (especially the Dorans offenders) are taking Ignite anyway. And there's no mechanical tie to the support role like there is to the jungle. Junglers need Smite to survive, supports don't get a must-have.
Maybe ban support from taking Ignite, forcing them to take something more supportive? Just a thought.
Sirsir (NA)
: Taking spellthiefs suddenly means you don't get assist gold? Or you miss that CC spell? And do you know how easy it is to get 15 procs? The miniscule amount of AP (15 vs 10) you lose before first back (when you get the upgrade and MORE AP than the throwaway Dorans ring) is balanced out by the damage from the Spellthiefs proc, which also works on auto harass. And since you're selling D ring at some point not only are you gimping your income, you're also giving away 240 of your starting gold, believing you're making lane phase easier. Anyone who takes {{item:1056}} over {{item:3303}} is either an idiot or a troll. There is no positive spin on a Dorans support. You are giving up gold AND damage and only gaining 60HP. Congratulations you gave up your scaling for an extra auto attack in health.
> [{quoted}](name=Sirsir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GLQvUiAy,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-08-10T16:00:25.858+0000) > > Taking spellthiefs suddenly means you don't get assist gold? Or you miss that CC spell? And do you know how easy it is to get 15 procs? > > The miniscule amount of AP (15 vs 10) you lose before first back (when you get the upgrade and MORE AP than the throwaway Dorans ring) is balanced out by the true damage from the Spellthiefs proc, which also works on auto harass. And since you're selling D ring at some point not only are you gimping your income, you're also giving away 240 of your starting gold, believing you're making lane phase easier. > > Anyone who takes {{item:1056}} over {{item:3303}} is either an idiot or a troll. There is no positive spin on a Dorans support. You are giving up gold AND damage and only gaining 60HP. Congratulations you gave up your scaling for an extra auto attack in health. I don't think I made my point clear enough earlier. You still are considering them supports. I think that's issue here. They take {{item:1056}}, you are laning with a midlaner, not a support. ** NONE ** of the champs I listed above are actual supports; they are actually AP carries that belong in the mid lane. But why take {{champion:12}} ,{{champion:201}} , {{champion:16}} , etc when you can have an extra carry as "support"? Midlane mages generally start {{item:1056}} , and just cause they are now in a side lane doesn't seem to have changed that much. ****** For the record, I HATE the concept of mage supports, and personally hope Riot finds a way to destroy the concept ******
: > [{quoted}](name=Sycoblast69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-10T11:44:03.187+0000) > > I'm fairly sure it is objective, and not rose tinted glasses. S4-6 champ roster is MUCH smaller. Balance would be easier to achieve simply because there would be less variables. Also, several of the Champ "reworks" have failed, with Ryze and Galio being the two most egregious offenders. > > Many of the games negative changes stem from trying to balance on the fly (which is what patches are, and therefore will never succeed in achieving balance), or from attempting to turn a computer game into a broadcast sport. > > I never said the earlier seasons had no issues. However the game was most def in a better place then, and LOL could be incredible now if Riot had frozen the game state then to fix balance issues. If Riot stopped creating new champs RIGHT NOW, I would not expect anything resembling balance until S12 at the earliest. > > On a personal note, Yes I did prefer LOL's earlier items, playstyle's and meta's to to current ones. Yes, I would gladly bring back Feral Flare, Dragons that are not RNG, Tank Meta, Ardent Censer Meta, etc. Any of those era's are preferable to now, IMO. good to know those rose tinted glasses are working perfectly
I'm sorry, but your response contributes to the discussion of balance.... how? I've played those season, you've played those season. I certainly have not forgotten the issues and complaints surrounding past seasons (and they are probably archived here). I was clear that at no point did I say that other seasons had zero issues. I was also clear that S9 is NOT balanced either. However, I Firmly believe that a massive reversion, followed by nothing but balance adjustments and bug fixes would be the fastest way to bring the game state to a more level, balanced place. No new champs, mechanics, chromas, skins, etc. Have Riot using 100% of their resources to create a more equal game. Using the smaller S6 roster, it would still probably take a year. You can't build a home without a strong foundation. League NEVER has had a strong foundation. Spaghetti code; disabling Ranked because of bugs; failed reworks and VGU's; Item additions and removals warping gameplay; horrid "class updates"..... the list of Riot's mistakes is long, and the issues caused by their "fixes" is just as long. So going back to a smaller, more manageable roster and cleaning up the crap before expanding again is probably the most efficient long-term solution. I'm aware this will never happen. But it shouldn't stop the conversation on how to address LOL's many, many problems. This is a thread about balance. However, you have contributed nothing to the discussion.
Sirsir (NA)
: Damage in the game is already too high, I want to bring it down. I'm directly against the last half of point 3. More pen scaling could be interesting...
Similar, not exact XD I said this in response to TheBrothersGrymm in this thread, but it bears repeating here as well: 100% Agree with the across-the-board damage nerf! He suggested a 15% cut. I am not going to pretend I know the correct number to use for balance, but it seems like a reasonable place to start. It also makes Lethality/MPen more important, as damage is down but health pools remain the same so HP is effectively increased!
: I'd say link it to heal/exhaust but depending on the meta and matchups, a non-support might want to take it. For example {{summoner:3}} is occasionally used top against trynd and ADCs will take {{summoner:7}} instead of the support from time to time.
That's why I'm thinking that bringing back the vision Summoner would be the tie-in spell. Vision is most closely associated with support, and I don't want to screw other positions. Exhaust is probably the best one if we have to choose from the current pool, though.
Sirsir (NA)
: I mean... can't junglers technically buy something else at the start? It's just a REALLY bad idea... That's kind of what's going on here. They are just kneecapping themselves by not buying a gold item. Slightly less AP now means you actually get to buy some later, roughly the same mana regen.
> [{quoted}](name=Sirsir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GLQvUiAy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-10T14:38:55.017+0000) > > I mean... can't junglers technically buy something else at the start? It's just a REALLY bad idea... > > That's kind of what's going on here. They are just kneecapping themselves by not buying a gold item. Slightly less AP now means you actually get to buy some later, roughly the same mana regen. Except it's not kneecapping them. Hit the CC as {{champion:63}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:143}} (and I'm sure I am leaving some out) and it's almost always a kill, if not a double kill. {{item:3303}} needs 15 procs to get the same gold as one assist. And all of those champs are former or current mids that get far more mileage from damage than anything else. Welcome to League of Snowball™
: Play more than one champion. Problem solved. I play {{champion:122}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:246}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:412}} {{champion:350}} so I'm never at a loss for finding a champ for me. Oh forgot to put {{champion:223}} in there somewhere.
Sir/Ma'am, I've played plenty of games with plenty of different champs. but in this season, it feels like many don't matter. It's not "problem solved". Not being critical, but the point of the OP is to attempt to find champs that work with my playstyle. Did you even read the post? {{champion:28}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:246}} {{champion:91}} are the ** exact opposite ** of the way I am comfortable playing the game. And I don't even have {{champion:555}} {{champion:246}} unlocked lol. Serious question: How has {{champion:223}} worked out since he got nerfed to oblivion?
Zlera (NA)
: Udyr sounds like your kind of style - he can solo dragons pretty easily around level 5, hes very tanky with his W shield plus the healing on it. He has an E stun which makes clearing so easy. Another good pick may be Nunu, he is very similar to Udyr, tanky and can clear well with good sustain with his Q; he can also solo drakes easier.
I will take him for some test runs and see how things work. Thanks for the suggestion!
Sirsir (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sycoblast69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2019-08-10T14:04:13.536+0000) > > Mixed feelings here. Sudden impact helps assassins be assassins, and that's good. but there is too much mobility elsewhere in the game that SI is a real problem. I've seen {{champion:236}} and {{champion:157}} dash around and trigger SI two hundred times or more in a given game! Assassins don't need this rune to be balanced and do their job. I think it's a big problem for why everyone seems so squishy early game. and then snowball into real lethality items. It's about 1/3d of resists gone at level 1. Plus if we're going to add defensive options some things gotta go.
> [{quoted}](name=Sirsir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2019-08-10T14:28:50.077+0000) > > Assassins don't need this rune to be balanced and do their job. I think it's a big problem for why everyone seems so squishy early game. and then snowball into real lethality items. It's about 1/3d of resists gone at level 1. Plus if we're going to add defensive options some things gotta go. Maybe. One of the main points of the OP was to sharpen Champ Identities. SI probably shouldn't be available to all champs, so removing it in favor of something defensive is fine with me. But maybe assassins are given a small of Lethality/Flat MPen as a base stat to compensate? No per level growth on it, but just a couple of points to highlight that that champ is actually an Assassin and is intended to have penetration, instead of a dashing nuisance abusing a rune to generate unintended amounts of damage. Maybe something similar to OP choice number 3?
: Disagreed, the way Riot defines the class, it makes sense that Dr. Mundo is considered a Juggernaut. Same for Nasus. They are able to soak damage for their team, yes. But to achieve that, a champion has to demand the attention of the enemy team to be able to absorb the damage. Juggernauts and tanks achieve this in different ways. Tanks are seperated in Vanguards and Wardens. Vanguards demand the attention of the enemy team because of their **disruptive potential**. They go in the team and cause chaos with their CC, keeping enemies in place for their team to destroy them. Wardens are able to protect their allies actively and demand attention that way. With a Warden, it gets hard to focus the actual carry of the enemy team. Juggernauts on the other hand demand attention because of their **damage potential**. If you leave a Juggernaut unchecked, he will waltz through your team and kill your squishies and actually everyone in his way. You have to stop them from doing this, so you have to commit CC and damage to deal with them. __________________ Now look at Nasus and Dr. Mundo. It is pretty clear which way they are demanding attention from the enemy team, it is because of their damage. It isn't their disruptive potential, since they just have a single target slow both. And they have no means whatsoever to protect their allies either. What they got, though, is **threatening damage**. Leave Dr. Mundo alone and he will run at your carries and slaughter them. Same for Nasus.
First off, Thank you for composing a thoughtful response! I am well aware of the technical delineations Riot makes between Juggernauts, Wardens, and Vanguards. All of your information is spot-on accurate. It's actually Riot's definition that I have an issue with. {{champion:36}} does NOT have threatening damage. Full stop. He builds 0 damage items. Mundo goes where he pleases, but can't do a damn thing once he get's there. However that tenacity, combined with virtually unlimited HP, allows him to body block projectiles and absorb hooks/engages without dying or having to recall. I classify {{champion:36}} as a ** WARDEN ** {{champion:75}} does NOT have threatening damage until very late, and LOL is currently designed to never get to that point. Even with changes to Q stacking, games are usually decided before his damage becomes relevant. However, Wither is the most powerful slow in the game, and cuts attack speed to boot. E is an AOE armor shred. He builds very tanky and R gives him additional HP. {{champion:75}} W + E on squishies results in a virtually immobile target with compromised armor. Sounds like a setup for ganks and assassinations. I classify {{champion:75}} as a ** VANGUARD ** Both of those champs have little in the way of damage, but still do their work on the front lines of a teamfight. They are tanks. I hope this explains my viewpoint a bit clearer.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sycoblast69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-08-10T12:50:50.856+0000) > > I am not opposed to having a smaller pool for ranked. Forces people to learn new champs and become better at the game as a whole. Maybe folks will focus on vision, mini-map awareness, positioning in teamfights, etc., instead of 1-tricking up the ladder and dodging when it's banned or picked by someone else. its the only way. If we really want a balanced champion experience. Might kill the game tho if people cant bear to que normals when their 1trick isnt in the ranked rotation. I think its good tho because it would encourage breaks from ranked, which we all need.
Not all players play ranked, and not all that play ranked SHOULD play ranked. Death to 1-tricks.
Sirsir (NA)
: Rework runes so there's a defensive tier in every mastery path, buff the defensive rune shards. Remove Sudden Impact, and then see if Lethality needs any more nerfs. Remove SoS, take out Phantom Hits from Guinsoos. Add more 'grounded' effects to existing kits (such as KogMaw). Buff the jungle so it's worth playing again.
> [{quoted}](name=Sirsir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-08-10T13:01:57.367+0000) > > Rework runes so there's a defensive tier in every mastery path, buff the defensive rune shards. Solid idea. Ideally there would be an offensive, defensive, and utility option in each of 5 trees. Of course, we could also just go back to the old system and have it be free and unlocked for everyone from the beginning.... > Remove Sudden Impact, and then see if Lethality needs any more nerfs. Mixed feelings here. Sudden impact helps assassins be assassins, and that's good. but there is too much mobility elsewhere in the game that SI is a real problem. I've seen {{champion:236}} and {{champion:157}} dash around and trigger SI two hundred times or more in a given game! > Remove SoS, take out Phantom Hits from Guinsoos. Add more 'grounded' effects to existing kits (such as KogMaw). Buff the jungle so it's worth playing again. Yes to all. 1. SOS is a clear example of both power creep and having CDR be too accessible, which removes counterplay and meaningful choices from the game. 2. Guinsoo has the dual pen, and that really should be the focus of the item. It's Unique and useful without phantom hit. 3. The concept of Crowd Control needs to be reworked from the ground up. Is there really a meaningful difference between snare, root, and stun? You don't move till it's done, so not really. Grounded and Brittle are both woefully underutilized. And displacement (knockup/back) is way too prevalent and it needs to be removed from kits OR give players clearer ways to work around it. Maybe have tenacity apply to displacement? or create an item specifically designed against displacement? or have certain champs be immune to it? 4. That's one of the OP suggestions! Vote for #6
: _Sigh_ Dr. Mundo is not a tank, he is a juggernaut, which is a fighter subclass, just like Aatrox and Darius are.
{{champion:36}} might be listed as a Juggernaut, but let's be real: {{champion:36}} can heal for 100% of his max hp, increase his MR by up to 42%, and has the best HP/5 in the game ** as his PASSIVE **. He is a tank. There is no universe where {{champion:266}} ,{{champion:122}} , and {{champion:36}} should be considered to be in the same class. {{champion:36}} does not play like the other two, or any other Juggernaut ({{champion:75}} is also mis-categorized as a Juggernaut, when he is really a late-game tank). The fact Riot has them grouped together is a disservice to players learning the game.
Smyrage (EUNE)
: It's time for support players to get the jungle treatment
I'm ok with this, but how to implement it? Jungle works because the game ties {{item:1041}} {{item:1039}} to {{summoner:11}} , and {{summoner:11}} is automatically assigned to the person playing jungle. FWIW, I would bring back a modified version of the old CLAIRVOYANCE summoner and give it the same interaction for support role and accompanying items. Helps to teach the importance of vision!
TakaDama (NA)
: How important is having CC to you? Would just staying alive be an acceptable option? If so, may I suggest Illaoi? Not necessarily a tank or even tanky by any means, but her sustain is pretty insane if you can hit a champion or spirit with multiple tentacles. Unfortunately her only CC is the slow on her E, but here's a little fun trick for you ... because her E doesn't deal damage or CC the champion it hits, enemies will not be interrupted while backing. And since their fountain will be outside the escape range, they will be slowed for a bit and a tentacle will spawn in their base. That might give you a little extra time to farm (which she does well). If CC is more important than the sustain itself but you still would love to have some form of safety, Malzahar is your guy. EDIT: In general, battle mages and juggernauts seem like they would work for you in this meta; just need to figure which ones are good at farming.
If I ever get filled to Mid, Malz is my go-to, so i guess i'm on the right track. But I will give Illaoi a chance, never played her so it will be interesting! Thank you for the suggestions!
: Its not his passive. They nerfed the shit out of mage item tankiness since the MYMU and you die in about the same time if you build stuff like spirit visage. Might as well just do more damage. The game-state forces mage builds. Nothing to do with Vlad. That said, the passive inversion and E ratio nerfs don't help.
> [{quoted}](name=Vlädïmïr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=50dAVpgz,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-10T05:23:07.551+0000) > > Its not his passive. > > They nerfed the shit out of mage item tankiness since the MYMU and you die in about the same time if you build stuff like spirit visage. Might as well just do more damage. > > The game-state forces mage builds. Nothing to do with Vlad. > > That said, the passive inversion and E ratio nerfs don't help. They nerfed the shit out of mage item tankiness since the MYMU and you die in about the same time if you build stuff like spirit visage. ** Might as well just do more damage. ** **The game-state forces mage builds.** Is there a way to get a Rioter's attention? Because these statements are at the heart of the problems with the game in the current state. NO meaningful choices in Champ select, NO viable alternatives to standard Item Builds, and NO counterplay on the battlefield.
: too many champions. There is no way to balance the game. Only way to do it would be to break the champions down into pools of like 30 or 40, balance those pools around the champions within that pool and then put them on a weekly schedule. So like, week 1 you get pool A of 40 champions. Week 2 you get pool B, week 3 pool C. Make the weekly rotation exclusively in ranked, the only place where balance is crucial.
> [{quoted}](name=PhearBunny,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-08-10T10:44:59.229+0000) > > too many champions. > There is no way to balance the game. > > Only way to do it would be to break the champions down into pools of like 30 or 40, balance those pools around the champions within that pool and then put them on a weekly schedule. > So like, week 1 you get pool A of 40 champions. > Week 2 you get pool B, week 3 pool C. > Make the weekly rotation exclusively in ranked, the only place where balance is crucial. I am not opposed to having a smaller pool for ranked. Forces people to learn new champs and become better at the game as a whole. Maybe folks will focus on vision, mini-map awareness, positioning in teamfights, etc., instead of 1-tricking up the ladder and dodging when it's banned or picked by someone else.
: I agree on Aatrox having to much healing i play him ALOT and lemme tell you nothing feels better than to LET kled hit his q and then hit r when you have dd and spirit visage and make GW look like a joke
> [{quoted}](name=guygoestothestor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-08-10T09:41:46.350+0000) > > I agree on Aatrox having to much healing i play him ALOT and lemme tell you nothing feels better than to LET kled hit his q and then hit r when you have dd and spirit visage and make GW look like a joke Hence the call for balance! GW is supposed to be THE counter to sustain champs and lifesteal items. Right now its a funny heart symbol.
LTK KoRo (EUW)
: gut all enchanters and kai'sa/corki/xayah/tristana and game is suddenly at it's best
> [{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-08-10T08:21:42.231+0000) > > gut all enchanters and kai'sa/corki/xayah/tristana and game is suddenly at it's best There are 144 champs currently in the game. I doubt it's that simple.
Lovelle (NA)
: 1. Revert the rune system back to the old one, make all the runes free and remove the tiers. Remove the keystones from masteries, it's just tacked on power that no one actually needs. 2. Nerf Black Cleaver by reducing the CDR or removing/reworking the armor shred. Remove the penetration from Morellonomicon. 3. Bring back Dominion, keep Twisted Treeline, all alternative game modes are now available in customs. 4. Bring back map-specific balancing, but only like twice a season at most. The alternative modes tend to be fine without constant updates (that more than likely won't actually improve anything).
> [{quoted}](name=Lovelle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-08-10T08:17:16.978+0000) > > 1. Revert the rune system back to the old one, make all the runes free and remove the tiers. Remove the keystones from masteries, it's just tacked on power that no one actually needs. Agreed. I thought Runes Reforged would have been better simply by making all runes available to all players. No need for gimmicks - I mean, keystones. > 2. Nerf Black Cleaver by reducing the CDR or removing/reworking the armor shred. Remove the penetration from Morellonomicon. I believe CDR nerf is the way to go. Armor shred is unique to {{item:3071}} , and having noticible windows of opportunity is good for counter-play. It's too easy to get to 40% CDR, and Bruisers/Off-Tanks should have to give up some offensive stats to opt-in to CDR. Meaningful choices makes for a more interesting game! By the same token, the MPen on {{item:3165}} is the only combat item to give flat MPen in the game and probably should be kept. I am aware of {{item:3020}}, but every champ except {{champion:69}} buys some kind of boots. Not all champs buy the book. > 3. Bring back Dominion, keep Twisted Treeline, all alternative game modes are now available in customs. I agree, there is no good reason why this should not happen. But how does this help balancing SR and improving Champ Identities? > 4. Bring back map-specific balancing, but only like twice a season at most. The alternative modes tend to be fine without constant updates (that more than likely won't actually improve anything). Same as response to #3 XD
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: The problem is that there are certain champions that get 1-2 kills in lane and become an unstoppable force right after that and start 3 shotting everyone while taking 0 damage. They are manageable when behind
> [{quoted}](name=JuiceBoxP,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-08-10T07:50:37.094+0000) > > The problem is that there are certain champions that get 1-2 kills in lane and become an unstoppable force right after that and start 3 shotting everyone while taking 0 damage. > Agreed, and I am trying to make the point that those champs have forced the game to become League of Snowballs™. Not sure if you noticed, but almost all of the OP suggestions aims to either weaken those champs, or strengthen other areas to have some equality and balance!
Shynana (NA)
: either direction you go will be problematic. I honestly wish they just introduce more items without having to be worried about it or forcing into the meta. Give back auras, or make a item that changes terrian for about 1.5 or 2 seconds, break terrian, have a trinket items that have traps, or item that summons a pet i guess, not the yorwick annie or the weed tree guy type of pet. A pet the supps or anyone can use to have it take some ward or scavenge or plant some fruit or plant plants that take a while to plan a different type of execution. like you send your pet because he being lazy, supp sends pet to place blast cone, if not discovered the pet won't run away in agony costing about 15 coins upon kill. if the pet builds it, then you can plot whatever you want, want to give top lane sustain go ahead. tried of getting 3 man tower dove top lane? have a pet tell you have theres a mofo coming, ight now you can have 15 coins i guess idk lol but it be cool if you could move plants
Plant movement sounds cool, but how does that help balance the game / sharpen champ identities? Twin Shadows {{item:3905}} is an item in the game that will send two ghosts out for 6 seconds to automatically hunt the two closest enemy champs, and slow+give vision if hit. {{champion:429}} has her sentinals that alert her to trouble. The problem is, both currently suck to the point where I would not be surprised if you said you were not aware of them. {{champion:429}} in particular has been acknoledged as a balance nightmare, and I suspect Riot will let her rot for a few more years and then "rework" her. {{champion:429}} also falls under the category of "Pointless / Redundant Champ" (You can put {{champion:42}} and {{champion:427}} in there, among others) To your point about Items / Auras... YES. The removal of auras was a sad day in LOL, and Item diversity would help tremendously. In fact, having fewer champs and more MEANINGFUL itemization sounds better than what we have now (More champs, less MEANINGFUL items).
Teh Song (NA)
: How would I do it? Hmm..... Well first of all I would not even look at player **balance** feedback. All of my decisions would be based on objective data. No bias, no subjective experience, just objective undeniable data. Feedback about direction is still good. So people saying things like "I don't like how much damage their is in the game, I wish everything was less damaging so fights took longer" is valid feedback that I'd listen to, while things like "Champion X deals too much damage they are op" is not and I'd ignore it. With that as my resource, I would move away from the damage meta. Far away. Practically everything in this entire game would deal less damage than it does right now when I was done. Then I'd remove crit, because there is no place or justification for chance mechanics in PvP games. I don't care how long it took me, I'd make adc's balanced without crit being a thing.
> [{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-10T05:20:07.454+0000) > > I would move away from the damage meta. > Far away. > Practically everything in this entire game would deal less damage than it does right now when I was done. > > Then I'd remove crit, because there is no place or justification for chance mechanics in PvP games. > I don't care how long it took me, I'd make adc's balanced without crit being a thing. So how soon can we start a petition to get you on the balance team? I'd sign it! Changes backed by data are the only appropriate changes to make, and the OP's thoughts are just starting points. I wish I had the data to really craft a solid argument. Without data, I am still comfortable saying that damage creep has been a real problem for many years. A huge problem, to the point of older champs being wastes. Reworking them has been a 50-50 shot at making them WORSE in an attempt to "modernize". And while we are busy removing RNG/chance from the game, can we also throw Dragon RNG out too?
: they needa nerf all damage by 15% to start, but one thing i disagree with is, grievous wounds needs a massive buff, Red Kayn/Aatrox and a few others can straight up outheal anything thorwn at them, i think i got red kayn to 65-70% spellvamp, so with griev im still at 30? Aatrox has so much healing it is stupid, griev only works on him early, by late he can outheal anything, What im getting at is healing needs to be scaled down aswell, self healing i mean, alot does needa be changed tho, the game is so stale, every role is 4 champs in rotating order i feels like
100% Agree with the across-the-board damage nerf! The GW suggestion is a starting point, I never thought that 50% for 4 sec was the perfect percentage/duration. And that starter suggestion IS A BUFF from the current 40%. {{champion:55}} and {{champion:240}} got the buff to 60%, but GW prob should be buffed to that uniformly. Some of the Champs have heal/sustain as their identity, so I am reluctant to promote messing with that. But it DOES need to be (wait for it) balanced XD
: > [{quoted}](name=Sycoblast69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-10T04:08:50.147+0000) > > That's the fastest way to fix it. Sadly Riot's pride keep them from acknowledging mistakes and undoing changes. Oh really? You sure It's not the boards rose tinted glasses that magically makes then forget that every single season has had it's own share of issues and that people complained about something in every single season? Nah, let's keep pretending that older seasons have no balance issues, let's keep exaggerating every single issue and lying about why each change has been made. Just because the great and mighty rose tinted glasses dictate so.
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gzk2oLNX,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-10T04:24:00.164+0000) > > Oh really? You sure It's not the boards rose tinted glasses that magically makes then forget that every single season has had it's own share of issues and that people complained about something in every single season? I'm fairly sure it is objective, and not rose tinted glasses. S4-6 champ roster is MUCH smaller. Balance would be easier to achieve simply because there would be less variables. Also, several of the Champ "reworks" have failed, with Ryze and Galio being the two most egregious offenders. Many of the games negative changes stem from trying to balance on the fly (which is what patches are, and therefore will never succeed in achieving balance), or from attempting to turn a computer game into a broadcast sport. I never said the earlier seasons had no issues. However the game was most def in a better place then, and LOL could be incredible now if Riot had frozen the game state then to fix balance issues. If Riot stopped creating new champs RIGHT NOW, I would not expect anything resembling balance until S12 at the earliest. On a personal note, Yes I did prefer LOL's earlier items, playstyle's and meta's to to current ones. Yes, I would gladly bring back Feral Flare, Dragons that are not RNG, Tank Meta, Ardent Censer Meta, etc. Any of those era's are preferable to now, IMO.
: Revert to season 6 at the latest. Optimally season 4.
That's the fastest way to fix it. Sadly Riot's pride keep them from acknowledging mistakes and undoing changes.
: If you _succ_ like me play {{champion:8}} Bonus is that you can 1v9 on him if you play safe enough. He kinda fits in this shit-storm of a meta. If you wanna learn things watch Elite500 on twitch now and then.
Loved Vlad back in the day. Used to rush Will of the Ancients and run AP/Health/CDR rune page with Spell Vamp Quints. I feel like they removed a lot of his sustain power when they did the mini-rework and pushed him into only mage builds. Wish I saw more Tank Builds, but Riot would have to change the numbers in his passive to make it viable again.
Zlera (NA)
: I feel you man, I really enjoy tanks and enchanters but alas, i cannot play them effectively this season. Ive had some luck with Fiora Top and Udyr Jungle; I think you should perhaps try out another role and look for a champion that is your style -- just because the META is early game doesnt mean you have to play early game champions, its a game after all.
> [{quoted}](name=Xphineas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=50dAVpgz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-10T02:33:20.280+0000) > > I think you should perhaps try out another role and look for a champion that is your style That's kinda my question; is there a Champ on the roster that fits my farm first, objective-based style?
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Comentários de Rioters
: Rest in peace {{champion:3}} You were designed as a anti mage then reworked and riot forced you into being a mage. Then when they nerfed that they nerfed you even more by making you not be able to flash taunt and the ability for that to be uninterruptible. The thing you were known for even from before your rework. It was nice knowing you blue and yellow gargoyle who's now sitting in a grave as a white and yellow gargoyle.
Im upset that I cannot upvote this 100x. Galio is the prototype failure for modern LOL. Complete loss of what the champ was designed to be, and ends up being good at nothing.
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Sycoblast69

Nível 128 (NA)
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