: May not be a popular opinion but....
>as long as you have practiced with them and pick them into a decent matchup This is where you lose a lot of "off meta" players. Most of them just "wanna have fun" with the game and are mindlessly picking their MF Supports with no Zyra in sight or whatever the fuck is happening in Top Lane and complaining about being counterpicked.
: > [{quoted}](name=MagicFlyingLlama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pZFy3BKx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-12T07:10:20.146+0000) > > Preseason coming, wait for the inevitable fallout and following rebalance. It's not exactly a jungle buff, from what I hear. Jungle seems to start off bad still in S10. I mean, you take less damage from blue side, and blue side xp will equal red side xp from what I heard, so??? so maybe you can get level 3 on blue side and gank with higher HP than if you did red? That's the only thing I can think of. However, a redistribution of xp won't magically help me match the levels of top and mid through lane phase.
Jungle timers are being reduced by 30 seconds. That's a big fucking deal, don't sweep that under the rug.
: You mean an ult that is channeled and basically ANY cc will stop? A knockup, a silence, a stun, a knockback, any cc except a snare/root/blind.
Not to mention on one of the most vulnerable ADCs in the game, ignoring the fact that MF needs to plant her feet to even use her Ultimate?
Alüe (NA)
: Can we Cap MS?
It already has a soft cap. Furthermore, half the point of Xerath's design is that it's easy to dodge his abilities, especially since his rework.
: I've often tried to do something like this and I respect the idea. Definitely add a column for crowd control. Probably something about early and late game would be good too. Relative ranges would be nice as well, usually you want at least one person who's able to poke from the back and a couple people at mid and frontline to tank for them.
Thank you. I'll try to find you if the finished semi-automatic version ever gets finished. I don't want to add a binary system for Crowd Control, I think there needs to be meaningful differentation between let's say Quinn and Malphite. How would you build that category, in terms of Champion Selection? (In other words, relevance to a team comp instead of just a descriptor of the champion) Similar to the idea of avoiding just being a descriptor of a champion and being more focused on the output of a champion/relevance in a team comp, what do you think is a good way to differentiate the effective range of say, a Dive Fighter vs a Marksman vs a Juggernaut? For all three, range means wildly different things.
: as for the better way to categorize : all you need to worry about is magic vs physical range movement speed health attack speed the reason I say this is because there are too many nuanced factors in the game.
Other than Magic vs Physical, it seems like you're trying to say I should organize champions by stats, and to only follow the given stats because otherwise the game is too complicated otherwise. If that is true, I'm not sure whether to include this idea or not. I have almost never decided over one champ or another on the basis of their Base Movement speed or their Attack Speed. Surely, outputs like Damage Dealt per Game or effective range of their abilities is a better measurement than inputs?
: there's a better way to categorize, but to humor you... PVE/PVP/Hybrid 1v1/1v5/5v5 Supporting/Carry/Hybrid Magic/Physical/Hybrid Ranged/Melee/Hybrid Basic attacker/Caster/Hybrid Initiator/Disruptor/Hybrid Frontline/Backline/Hybrid I could go on and on.
Hey thanks for some ideas. I've already got damage type and support/carry. Just wanna clarify, what is it that you mean in terms of PVE/PVP and 1v1/1v5/5v5?
Comentários de Rioters
Comentários de Rioters
: Quick question, is Taliyah still considered or taken Jungle recently? I used to main her back when she was originally just a laner but then didnt do much when they had started to change her kit to where she became more Jungle orientated. So if she is still viable in that area Id have a third option to go with but if not she will be benched.
Only by her mains.
Comentários de Rioters
: Tips on Jungling?
Skill-Capped, Virkayu, and Kingstix all have wonderful guides for learning the Jungle. Evelynn and Zac have the exact same standard route, starting Hunter's Talisman, Red Buff, into Krugs and Raptors for the Lv3. From there they either continue full clearing or they Gank Mid. Afterwards they will take control of Scuttle. You can turn this around by doing Raptors before Krugs, which opens up a really early side lane gank. Transition this into stealing the enemy's Blue if you know they haven't started on it, or if a gank isn't available, you can back, go to your Blue Buff, Scuttle should be up, and then full clear from your Gromp to your Krugs (Raptors and Krugs should respawn just as you get to them, for an efficient clear). Zac can also do a 4 camp interior clear if you just want a simple side lane gank. Try to time yourself so you back 30 seconds before your Krugs respawn. It is imperative you farm them off cool down to maximize your farming potential. For items, build {{item:3108}} or {{item:3751}} before you buy anything else, then straight into their completed Jungle items. Otherwise, just follow any online guide.
: Looking for tips on macro and csing
Gold scrub here. You may not want advice from me, but can I at least rephrase your question a little? You're a Mid Lane Mage player. Specifically, you play a lot of Zoe. What exactly is the goal of playing Zoe in the Mid Game to the Late Game? Really consider this question for a second, what's Zoe's (mid to late game) win conditions, or what does Zoe contribute to her team's win conditions? When playing the game, you're either executing on a win condition, or setting up for it. Asking the Boards how to improve your macro is a pointless question because there are a lot of different champions that play the mid to late game in a lot of different ways. Instead, you should really try to consider what you as a Diamond Player consider the point of playing Zoe (or any other mid lane mages you play). Once you've decided what that is, then you can start to ask way better questions like how to set up for these win conditions, or what to do if you can't do anything about your win conditions at a given moment (like, say, go and farm). With that said, my two cents, because you don't know what Zoe wants to do, you're trying too hard to do/consider literally everything. Simplify this thought process. What does Zoe want to do? Okay, if you can't do what Zoe wants to do right now, what else can you do to set it up (farm, put lanes/waves in certain positions, etc.)? This is just a surface level approach to the problem but I hope you do find what you're looking for.
: Shen on jungle
Shen's Q already gains a bonus for hitting Monsters. However, I don't think those are necessarily the buffs you are looking for to make Shen a more viable Jungler. To me, Shen Jungle looks a lot like Warwick Jungle. A LOT of his power is hidden behind his Level 6 power spike. The problem is that he's really bad at getting there; without Tiamat and Bami's Cinder, he can't really clear the Raptors and Krugs very efficiently at all, which is downright key to Level 6 Junglers. Warwick gets around this because his Lv3 gank is incredibly reliable with proper utilization of his W. Shen...not so much. What you would want are more reliable gank patterns (risky business since this may just break Support Shen (granted that's not that strong so maybe it's okay) ) or more reliable farming plans if there's no gank opportunities available. The latter is actually being addressed in S10 for Single Target and Farm Junglers like Warwick and Shen, so if anything that's one of the buffs you should look out for for him. The former however is a dangerous proposition to play with. The tools that makes Shen's Lv2/3 Ganks so strong are the exact same that makes laning Shen the absolute worst to stand anywhere near in the early game, and balancing that is difficult.
Comentários de Rioters
huhndog (NA)
: Maybe nunu doesn't fit your playstyle. Have you considered trying early game junglers like Olaf, xin, and j4 where your objective is to get your laners fat?
I'm not sure you should be recommending early game ADs to a person who isn't good at Jungling as a whole.
: We are close to the same page, cool. Personally, I think the only "right" move is to take out all the extra janky limitations. It boils down to Riot trying to enforce the meta game, which by definition it should never really be doing. Riot should create the game and players should be constantly creating and changing the meta game. Make jg monsters give normal xp without jg item, make smite optional( I do believe smite is the smart jg summoner choice in most situations, don't get me wrong). Let players actually make choices and play game.
> Make jg monsters give normal xp without jg item, make smite optional( I do believe smite is the smart jg summoner choice in most situations, don't get me wrong). Let players actually make choices and play game. Huh, why are the laners stealing the Jungler's farm? Oh, Junglers don't like that? Well, fuck em, diversity.
Quáx (NA)
: As a jungler this is what scares me the most about Senna
Oh ho that's actually hilarious. I don't think it's actually relevant though. The Level 1 Cooldown is like 3 minutes, she's probably gonna hit Level 6 around the 6-7 minute mark if I have my level timing correct, and by the 10 minute mark, all the major jungle routes break down as Junglers need to react to objectives instead of optimizing their clears. That means she only really gets to do this once per game. And this is by sacrificing her Ultimate Ability. With a 3 minute cool down. All of this for information that Solo Q players won't use and coordinated players don't need.
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymyE4hsH,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-10-29T22:43:29.354+0000) > > {{champion:32}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:1}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:246}} {{champion:497}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:115}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:143}} > > Starting to think Senna's E is gonna turn into a noobtrap, especially at lower Elos. You also forgot champions that have Pulls or just straight up skill shots like Ezreal,Lux, and Morgana since it's just directly untargetable not invulnerable. Less of a noob trap and more of a cocky idiot one which is definitely at lower Elos.
Ahh, I was just replying to the whole "Hey let's all group up in this small area around our squishy support!" thing that Fenikkusu pointed out. If we want to add all the champions that can threaten Senna and her allies within her Ult in some significant way, this list is gonna get waaaaay longer.
Zerenza (NA)
: The issue i have with it is that it can't be canceled if Senna takes damage or is CCed, meaning that her team will remain stealthed until she decides she doesn't want them to be stealthed anymore, which eliminates the counterplay of Camo(Evelynn, Twitch, Pyke are revealed when they take damage.) Then the fact that it stops you from clicking on them after they leave is also very frustrating, as Akali's Obscured effect on her shroud proved, even though you could see Akali, the fact you can't click on her was extremely frustrating. To add, Senna's allies don't leave stealth when THEY attack, the stealth only cancels if Senna attacks, so you can have skillshots flying at you from what is effectively a Bush, which is not fair.
It's probably not gonna work if Senna is dead, and other than her **delayed** _root_, and due to being a Marksman (very squishy, probably), that's not a tall order.
: Unclickable and untargetable are two very different things, the enemy team bunches up on Senna for the stealth? Drop every (If any) AoE ability you have on their ass.
{{champion:32}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:1}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:246}} {{champion:497}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:115}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:143}} Starting to think Senna's E is gonna turn into a noobtrap, especially at lower Elos.
: Tristana and Jinx's rockets also gain attack range, that i know of.
And Twitch and Kog'Maw.
GankLord (NA)
: I'm Banning Senna
Is there something specific you don't like about Senna? If it's her Ult than I'm with you but if it's her E, that's just baiting her team into a wombo combo.
: You're right about the crowding, that's the best way to counter wukong. However, I would still play malphite instead, for hassle-free point-and-clickage.
I'm confused, am I right about Wukong or does crowding counter him? And fair enough, I prefer Wukong myself but that's preference.
: Area of effect invisiblity is a stupid idea, please don't add this to Senna's kit
Counter argument: Senna herself is immobile, and you know where she is, and she's probably going to be squishy as fuck. Combine this with just how small her shroud is, and you've basically got a {{champion:54}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:497}} Trap waiting to happen.
: Well we don't yet know if you can target her inside her fog, because as we know wukong's e is a point-and click. That will really be the deciding factor. If she can't, wukong has no chance, especially if she hides her team in there. Maybe he can catch her unaware here and there, but the jungler can just invade wukong, making him a weak little chump. Wukong's mana consumption is insane, meaning that he has to choose between ganking mid and bot, if bot isn't just a failed gank with senna. Wukong can't stealth from brush into lane, Senna can just e on reaction, ghost away. If your team has half a brain and champions that were added to the game after 2014, wukong is nothing. In every possible game that you can play wukong, just play jarvan instead. EDIT: the enemy team can just walk out of her circle and they'll be unattackable ghouls. Even if wukong picks senna, the rest will just kill him, making the whole thing not worth.
As for your EDIT. They had to group up in the first place. Any Engage player knows it's about Timing more than anything.
: Well we don't yet know if you can target her inside her fog, because as we know wukong's e is a point-and click. That will really be the deciding factor. If she can't, wukong has no chance, especially if she hides her team in there. Maybe he can catch her unaware here and there, but the jungler can just invade wukong, making him a weak little chump. Wukong's mana consumption is insane, meaning that he has to choose between ganking mid and bot, if bot isn't just a failed gank with senna. Wukong can't stealth from brush into lane, Senna can just e on reaction, ghost away. If your team has half a brain and champions that were added to the game after 2014, wukong is nothing. In every possible game that you can play wukong, just play jarvan instead. EDIT: the enemy team can just walk out of her circle and they'll be unattackable ghouls. Even if wukong picks senna, the rest will just kill him, making the whole thing not worth.
That's a fair point. If Wukong can target at least Senna within her fog, she's pretty boned. However I will contest that the grouping thing goes the other way around. If she hides her whole team in her fog, that's to Wukong's (and any other AOE Engage Champion's) advantage. An Invisible Wukong-Orianna wombo combo combined with whatever other AOE you want to throw in there and that's Senna's entire team dead. I'm not sure where you're trying to go with everything else however. Seems more like a targetted complaint thread about Wukong than it is anything else.
: Something tells me Wukong won't be able to keep up with Senna...
A very specific complaint. From what I saw, Senna doesn't really have the defensive capability to defend from Wukong jumping her herself. Furthermore, she's probably not gonna be very tough at all if her itemization reflects her being a "Marksman". In other words, Wukong's gonna have no problem with just nuking Senna to solve the problem. EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, Wukong's probably one of Senna's strongest counters. Once again for the reasons above, but also because his Stealth is an easy way to break into Senna's Camouflage, and his Ultimate punishes the enemy team for grouping up around Senna's stealth Camo.
Comentários de Rioters
: How do I push a lane advantage?
Okay so wave macro generally goes like this, assuming you have the wave clear and power to work the waves. - If the wave is pushing towards you, freeze the lane, farm, and starve the opponent. If you're winning and have a frozen lane, the enemy Top Laner shouldn't even be able to walk up to you, let alone grab any CS. - If the wave is pushing out, try to push as slowly as possible until the second minion wave comes to grow your wave, then shove the combined 2 waves into the enemy tower. Sometimes you can even combine three waves, but it really depends on how many cannons there are and if minion targeting allows for it. Once the minions are securely under the enemy tower, you have a lot of options. You can roam to gank mid, establish vision, or take herald with your Jungler. You can tower dive, or threaten one so the opposing laner gives up the tower to you for free plates or even the whole tower. You can even run right past the opposing laner to proxy farm or steal the enemy Jungle, and start being a major headache for two players on the enemy team. - The last point continues even as the opponent's tower falls. The goal is to build up a gigantic minion wave and crash it into the enemy's now Tier 2 tower. This makes Herald incredibly easy, and in general buys you WAY more time to roam. If you can successfully crash into the enemy Tier 2, and you can't just keep stomping them under tower or outright killing their Tier 2, this is when you can gank bot. Otherwise, Roam Mid, Roam Enemy Jungle, Take Herald, and generally dominate that quadrant of the map. In my opinion, there's no point in forcing Tier 2s if the Tier 1s are still up. In other words only tower dive if it's easy for you. The big problem with this advice is that it's exceedingly champion and matchup specific. Not just your own Top Lane matchup mind you, but you need to know the gankability of the other lanes, you need to understand what your Jungler wants to do vs what your opponent's Jungler wants to do. You need to know how well you and your Jungler synergize in tower dives and how well the enemy Jungler and Top Laner synergize at chasing you around. For now, I'd focus on the first two tips the most (freezing and crashing) as they are the most universal tips you can apply to Wave Macro.
Comentários de Rioters
: What would be some good champions to round out my champion pool?
Honestly, Ahri is a good generalist Mage and Talon's a good Assassin, you basically have your bases covered. If you want to branch off of Ahri, focus on any one or two things you wish you could be doing better while you're playing Ahri. As a generalist, her only defining feature as a Mage is her mobility. Her burst is weak compared to a powerhouse like Syndra, her Waveclear is lackluster compared to an artillery like Xerath, and her sustained damage is nothing compared to a rampaging Cassiopeia. You should keep Ahri as your staple Mage for Mid Lane, and pick up more specialized Mages for specific occasions that you personally find Ahri lacking in. Or if you want another generalist, Orianna, Anivia, and Taliyah are pretty good if you're willing to put in the time for them. As for your Assassin pool, you'll definitely want an AP Assassin like Fizz or Katarina. Zed is the obvious poster child for AD Assassins but he and Kat also take a LOT more mechanical skill; that's a lot of time investment for backup picks, is what I mean. As for Junglers, it's my personal opinion that everybody should learn to play Nunu. He can do any Jungle route, his ganks are amazing, he scales great into the late game, and he fits in almost every team comp. After that, same deal with Ahri. Find out the things that you personally think Nunu isn't good at and learn more specialized Junglers to fit those needs.
iiGazeii (NA)
: A Lux who can't land skillshots. We've all seen them.
Calling Ziggs, Xerath, and Vel'Koz to the stand.
CurS1VE (NA)
: What do you think is the Misconception of your Main Role?
Jungle decides lanes. No, lanes decide lanes. Most of the time, the Jungle just turns the faintest tip in the scales into a big lead. Outside of power gankers or the cheesiest of cheese (pre nerf Shaco), Junglers don't really get to decide anything really. The role is incredibly reactive, not proactive.
: Why do mid laners just stand in lane before minions spawn?
Everyone does this unless you direct them otherwise and they feel like it. Top Laners are the worst about doing it imo, but if I ever start or invade top, you can also bet that bot laners who normally watch the Jungle are also now sitting under their Tower.
Comentários de Rioters
Shìo (EUW)
: I was finally lucky and drew Championship Ryze out of the 10 years orb and then this happened...
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AtkediwE,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-21T18:26:12.644+0000) > > And lane counters don't count. Of course Ziggs is 'fun to play against' you filthy Yasuo main. > > On a serious note, any time this is brought up on the Boards, it's a non point. You don't run into a matchup and think "oh boy I'm really looking forward to Nasus' scaling", "Man, Kindred's invades really keep me on the edge of my seat", "Brand? I love dodgeball!". So what the hell are questions like "Honestly does anyone _R E A L L Y_ like to play against Pyke/Yuumi/Zoe/Whatever?" He needs to walk midway into river to even reach bot lane, so the moment he's moving to side bushes or out of sight you should be moving to river and both the support and jungler have wards of their own they should be using in the river...if your bot lane engaged despite you pinging the galio missing and the amount of time it takes him to roam to the middle of the river to ult, they were straight out inting and it is no different from feeding a visiting Rengar/Khazix/Hecarim. It's a really simple concept, you never commit to an engagement or move past the opening of the river unless you have established river and tribush vision. I get it, you hate inting bot lanes. We all do. I wish this was a game where bot lane wasn't the be all end all of the match outcome. But the point is that Galio is hardly one of the worst offenders in terms of bot lane roams. Zed, Fizz, Katarina all roam bot lane extremely well as does Pantheon and Nocturne (who happens to be a pretty clear counter to control mages too thanks to his short cd spellshield in mid lane).
: Do junglers have too much impact?
Loaded question, nice. I have no idea where you're trying to go with this post so I'll just try to address the title. For all but the most extreme of power gankers, Junglers honestly can't do much more than slightly tip the scales of power in a lane. Now of course if lanes are dead even in a volatile matchup, Junglers are gonna be staring that down. However, for the most part, lanes are already won or lost the moment people are queued up. Not even in champion select, it's just a matter that at the end of the day, someone is gonna win and someone is gonna lose. In this regard, Junglers honestly don't do very much at all. They don't have the power to truly decide things, they only have the power to react to the board that's given to them and only slightly tip any scales in their favor when they can.
DJisKxng (NA)
: Riot Can You Please Look Into Wukong
He's one of the stronger snowball picks against Ranged/Squishy Top Laners. He also has a rework in the oven. Can't be released yet because of insufficient art assets, but like, it's literally on the way dude chill.
iV0lt4GE (EUW)
: Almost all of them have been nerfed hard because of Pro Play (Exception being ASol, Ziggs and Nunu).
Actually ziggs got nerfed after the S4 stall meta since he and Xerath made games come to a grinding halt whenever they were alive
heroikc (NA)
: They're forcing junglers to essentially become pseudo-dual laners.
It's probably more apt to call them by their S1 name: Roaming Support
Sciraen (NA)
: i haven't played league since like, mid-season 6! what have i missed?
What role are you? Obviously there are new champions first and foremost. Furthermore if you missed a lot of Scuttle Changes. [Here are a list of Jungle Routes](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jBEYgGuB-junglers-you-should-probably-learn-your-champions-jungle-routes) that you should probably learn, [here are the new routes that are about to come up in the new Season](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/14hAX8wh-some-of-the-new-routes-are-actually-kinda-awkward). Even if you're not a Jungle player, you should really learn these to understand Gank Routes and how different Junglers have different goals. The Scuttle Camp is basically worth a Gromp nowadays, and farming as a whole is a lot less valuable, so you need to help your Jungler win their early game goals so that they're useful as the game goes on. We're also approaching a new season, so everyone's kinda relearning the game soon anyway. Just look up the newest Preseason Changes for that.
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Comentários de Rioters
: Recommended jungler anyone?
Kha'Zix. Less of a hard carry but more of a solid core Jungler I believe every Jungler should learn is Nunu.
GankLord (NA)
: As a jungler I have a question
: I can agree with you on that. Which is why I'm beseeching Riot in multiple posts to reinstate these strategies so they are strong enough to viable at the pro level. Which will show people how to play them and how fun they can be again. Also if here is not the place to create traction for positive forward thinking, where would you say is best? Please don't say Reddit :)
I don't have an answer for that. The only time you can get the player base as a whole to get off their asses and learn new strategies is to throw something that broken at their heads and see if they're willing to learn how to duck. Unless you can get to Riot themselves, and I promise you you're not gonna do that through Gameplay, you're going to need to reach critical mass on the gigantic and diverse Solo Q player base. There's not one site to do that.
: There were a few times when I think full poke comps were a legitimate threat. The first one that pops in my mind was when full poke Jayce was viable and admittedly OP, and I think by the time they nerfed him Ziggs and Xearth mid were hitting their stride. Then there was the era of having any combination of Ezreal, Varus, Corki in bot/mid. The ideal set up was Ez bot Corki mid. Then there was the release of lethality, where poke Jayce and Varus made a comeback. And then there was the age of Nidalee jungle paired with an Ezreal or Corki bot and a mage mid laner. And I agree, that the balance of power is only half the issue...and hence why I started this thread. To remind veterans that other strats were a thing, and were fun and worth playing. And to inform newer players who may have been unaware of the same.
Veterans don't visit the Boards. At least not the ones who will commit to these strategies without their friends. Otherwise you're just preaching to the choir. If you want to make this informational to new players, you have not formatted your post in a way that any new player would actually learn about these comps and how to play them. Furthermore, Boards posts are the last place to create critical mass for changes in the Player Base as a whole, which is what you would need to do for large sections of the player base to play these strategies, which is what you need for these strategies to even be popular in Solo Q.
: I'd agree with about half of what you're saying as well. I mean in regards to the poke comp thing, they were a lot easier to pull off before like 10 rounds of nerfs, before like 2-3 seasons of off season changes buffing burst damage, and when there were more than 2 viable poke champs in existence. So yes, poke is difficult to pull off, but it wasn't always so. But that's my point, is that the inherent weakness of the comp has be so exasturbated by Riot that the whole thing just collapsed. Also I think your perception of split pushing is a bit skewed. The fact that your viewpoint of split pushing is that in scenarios where split pushing as a full strat works there is just 1 fed guy in a side lane who refuses to communicate, that actually proves my point. When split pushing is in a healthy state it becomes exponentially better with teamwork, and falls apart quickly without it. And can thrive using stuff like assassins in sidelanes, not just an overfed Fiora/Jax/Trynd/Nasus. And in that same vein of reasoning I was thinking more about the 1 - 3 - 1 scenario than the 0 - 4 - 1 scenario. In a 1 - 3 - 1 communication must be high, all 5 players must be very active with map movements and vision control, both aggressively pushing forward and retreating defensively as needed, able to be both proactive and reactive situationally. Super fun and dynamic when played well. Also in general I'd say the logic that if something is difficult to pull off it should just be removed from the game. Now, of course there are limits to how polarizing skill expression can be. It would be dumb if there was like 5% of the population that could play all strats, and then like 95% of the players base was just tiers and tiers below the most elite of players. But I mean, there is a pretty big middle ground there to allow more difficult, dynamic strats to exist for those with the skill to use them. Lastly I think the idea that people find enchanters and front - back team fight comps boring to play is largely blown out of proportion by the Reddit and forum community just due to the nature of the people who are most active and vocal on those platforms. Personally I play a couple of league matches daily, and I'd say about once or twice a week I come across a play in my solo q games who loves enchanter supports and thinks they are extremely fun to play. Even in today's state of the game. I think our player base has been falsely led to believe the the only fun thing in the game is doing up front damage and securing kills, and I'd like to challenge that thought process and bring to light that they've been led astray. (Quick add-on regarding jungle being f'd over. If we believe that a supportive style of play is strong, than taking some power out of the jungle early game isn't really a big deal. Because as a role it's supposed to be focused on supporting lanes and securing vision. Not getting themselves powered up or in a position to hard carry)
Before we continue, can I just double check what you mean about Poke comps? I'm thinking 3-5 man Marksman/Artillery Mage comps that popped up around Seasons 4-6, which ignoring that brief episode when Marksmen were overbuffed, were only ever viable in competitive play. Even at their strongest, the best Solo Q could ever do was a modified Teamfight comp with Ziggs/Xerath/Karthus as their Mid Laner and everyone else playing straight team fight. 5 man Artillery has never been a solo q thing, again ignoring that one Marksman patch. >When split pushing is in a healthy state it becomes exponentially better with teamwork, and falls apart quickly without it. This is almost the exact problem that I told you lmao. Every point you made rings true, in coordinated play. You're not getting that level of performance in Solo Q. Back when I played with my friends in a Team of 5, there were 2 of us in particular who stood out as the mechanically best Carry players, we all understood this as a team, and we all worked together to take advantage of this strength. We had fun trying out all sorts of silly team comps building around me and my Mid Laner because we were able to communicate actively, both in preparation and in game. Front to back teamfight comps, Poke/Artillery, Splitpush, Mr. President, Pick Comps, you name it. If those guys all still played, we can easily pull off all those team comps in today's meta. But there's no way in the world you can convince solo Q strangers to give up their own champions to protect me, another solo Q stranger, just because I want to play Master Yi, or Karthus, or Yasuo. The problem isn't difficulty per se, as you seem to be trying with. The problem is difficulty in coordination and willingness. This is why I say you're halfway through to the problem. Even if let's say you "challenge that thought process and bring to light that they've been led astray", and somehow you manage to teach everyone the fundamental building blocks of alternative strategies to the game, there's still the hurdle of actually getting people to do it. Together. And coordinate. As a team. In Solo Q. That's why you're only halfway there. You're absolutely right in all areas that you're speaking in, but you've only covered half the area.
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