: The TFT changes ruined the balance of the game yes or no?
Yes, but I'm not that that's a bad thing at all. It's true, some of the 6-synergy bonuses are underwhelming. (That was also the case previously - the 9-sorc comp was actually lousy, and the 6 Shapeshifter comp was only conditionally good. Four Wilds was irrelevant after midgame, except when it was buffed.) The bigger change, is probably the way that they adjusted damage (starting with the previous patch) so that late-game comebacks and eco-strats are a bit trickier to achieve. It's considerably more difficult to coast through early and mid games now.
: So that more people get the rewards...as has been said by them. If more people have the ability to get the top rewards, more people will play. This isn’t some huge conspiracy to get people to “play less”.
> [{quoted}](name=BladeSteel,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=n2ZAFzrr,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T15:27:11.761+0000) > > So that more people get the rewards...as has been said by them. If more people have the ability to get the top rewards, more people will play. This isn’t some huge conspiracy to get people to “play less”. Nobody else mentioned the word "conspiracy" - that would imply coordination by some unknown party for nefarious purposes. Riot wants to make it easier for players to play less games. They actually said this, in the note that you quoted. I showed you, players who played the same amount of matches before, weren't "locked out" of rewards. (This was my own habit; I rarely played 5 matches in 24 hours, and still managed to make nice progression.) Even if this were true, the bottom line is, they are making it easier to progress, with playing fewer matches. What could the benefit be in that? Especially when you consider (you made a very good point!) - people play just for fun anyway. The rewards are besides the point. (Right?) (The administration has never adopted any similar adjustment in LoL, so far as I am aware. The most recent big changes to progress achievements changes have tended to encourage playing more and more games, with infinite leveling, proposed Eternals, etc...)
: How do you get “Cool down guys, you don't need to play THAT much. Here, you can fill the Orb playing 1/3 as many games. Now go get back out on the rift.” from “ We wanted to make it easier for players who don’t play TFT every day but still play a lot of it to get a good amount of XP from the Orb.“ unless you’re looking for a conspiracy?
> [{quoted}](name=BladeSteel,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=n2ZAFzrr,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T15:28:59.422+0000) > > How do you get “Cool down guys, you don't need to play THAT much. Here, you can fill the Orb playing 1/3 as many games. Now go get back out on the rift.” from “ We wanted to make it easier for players who don’t play TFT every day but still play a lot of it to get a good amount of XP from the Orb.“ unless you’re looking for a conspiracy? I don't know who mentioned anything about a conspiracy? (Unless you consider that EVERYTHING that Riot does is technically a kind of conspiracy, I suppose.) They implemented a game adjustment that must logically lead to a decrease in gameplay. The reason that they gave doesn't really tell us why; it just says that yes, in fact, they are making it easier for people to play fewer games. We were all wondering why they might want to do that.
: So because I play a Zelda game to the end, and don't get any "xp" or "reward" for playing it, its a bad/stupid game? I even PAID for it, but I get no xp nor rewards while TFT is a FREE game. Noone has said anything showing how it is a stupid decision, as it does what it is intended to do, which is help those who play less to earn the same rewards as those who play more. If that makes you less likely to play, well then maybe you don't actually like TFT that much, for if you liked it for the game, instead of for the rewards, you'd still play the same amount. And...guess what! There still is a reward. You just don't "earn" it as fast, oh no, what a horrible stupid decision. All people have said is it is a stupid decision because it will make people play less. Well if you have to have a reward to make yourself play the game, maybe its time to look at another game. When I play TFT, I play it for the game, not for the rewards. The rewards are just an extra bonus. So I fail to see how it is a "stupid" decision to change it so its easier for more people.
> [{quoted}](name=BladeSteel,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=n2ZAFzrr,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T07:09:48.613+0000) > > So because I play a Zelda game to the end, and don't get any "xp" or "reward" for playing it, its a bad/stupid game? I even PAID for it, but I get no xp nor rewards while TFT is a FREE game. > Noone has said anything showing how it is a stupid decision, as it does what it is intended to do, which is help those who play less to earn the same rewards as those who play more. If that makes you less likely to play, well then maybe you don't actually like TFT that much, for if you liked it for the game, instead of for the rewards, you'd still play the same amount. > And...guess what! There still is a reward. You just don't "earn" it as fast, oh no, what a horrible stupid decision. > > All people have said is it is a stupid decision because it will make people play less. Well if you have to have a reward to make yourself play the game, maybe its time to look at another game. When I play TFT, I play it for the game, not for the rewards. The rewards are just an extra bonus. So I fail to see how it is a "stupid" decision to change it so its easier for more people. That's great. But the administration wants to attract even more players, besides the purists like yourself. That's why they offer rewards in the first place. They think that more people will play, and continue to play, if there is a larger game, with progress. The same reason that LoL comes with a ranked system, and a mastery system, and other distracting achievements, they wanted TFT to have an achievement system, in the belief that it would draw, and keep, more players. (And of course, it must.) And Ranked isn't enough, lots of players refuse to play anything called "ranked", so there's a side progress achievement with missions and points and rewards and exclusive cosmetics. (Just like in LoL, only it works a little differently.) They COULD have released a game with no achievement system. But that's not what happenned. So, now that we HAVE a game with a rewards system, a system that really suggests how much somebody should be playing, by limiting the rewards that can be earned in a finite time... then we need to ask... why adjust it so that fewer matches need be played? What could Riot possibly gain from that? Need to assume that they wanted people to play less for some reason.
: They already said why. They said: >We wanted to make it easier for players who don’t play TFT every day but still play a lot of it to get a good amount of XP from the Orb. The Orb will now recharge every three days instead of every day, so if you only play certain nights or only on weekends, you’ll have a much easier time earning XP in this pass. If you don't believe that, well take off your tin hat and actually think instead of trying to come up with conspiracy theories.
> [{quoted}](name=BladeSteel,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=n2ZAFzrr,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-11-11T07:12:12.139+0000) > > They already said why. They said: > > If you don't believe that, well take off your tin hat and actually think instead of trying to come up with conspiracy theories. Why would they want to do that? Logically, it should result in some amount of TFT getting played LESS. Previously, to max out the Orb, one would need to play 5 matches every day. (Admittedly, a bit much, if one is winning, that's like 3 hours.) Doing this, one would get 360 points in 3 days. BUT, if one merely played 1 match / day, still get 240 pts. OR if one played 5 matches on Sunday, and then 1 match on M and T then 280 pts. If one played no matches, but merely logged in and emptied the orb - 70 pts. They used to give 70 pts daily, just for emptying the orb. Currently, there is no advantage to playing more than 5 matches over 3 days. 300 pts max. As far as the orb is concerned, fewer games will be played, it's pretty simple. (The guys who used to max out the orb every day will lose a few points, the ones who didn't, gain a few points, it's not a big difference.) (All of this assumes that the points have the equivalent value now as before, which does not actually seem to be the case. I haven't done all the math, but my feeling is that the points are worth less, and more are required to reach milestones.) Anyway, no tinfoil hat - obviously SOME people will play less than before, and there's no reason to think that others would take up the slack. So, if the reason stated is the only reason, then it seems like kind of a bad reason. If this was your game, and you wanted to encourage more people to play, is this a change that you would have made? ... Need to consider, that the reason given, could be their way of saying, "Cool down guys, you don't need to play THAT much. Here, you can fill the Orb playing 1/3 as many games. Now go get back out on the rift."
Padoµch (EUNE)
: I really was looking towards this :D boters are trying out aram scripts for lvling new accounts when they know TT is going away. This was a reality on TT for years btw.
> [{quoted}](name=Padoµch,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLwFHhdx,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2019-11-11T07:01:33.121+0000) > > I really was looking towards this :D boters are trying out aram scripts for lvling new accounts when they know TT is going away. This was a reality on TT for years btw. It's not particular to 3v3. It is only noticed there more, because it is played less frequently.
: Aram is unplayable
All right. Here's how to avoid bots (or at least make them less likely): queue up with a friend (or friends).
: I wonder if there are 5v5 of 10 bots. How would the game even end at that point if they play cluelessly against each other?
> [{quoted}](name=Need Gold 4 Tent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=49l6JNyx,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-11-11T05:29:44.117+0000) > > I wonder if there are 5v5 of 10 bots. How would the game even end at that point if they play cluelessly against each other? You don't need to wonder. There are such matches. Locate a bot account and examine their match history. You can even watch the games. OCCASIONALLY I have played matches where it was clear that a user had taken control of the bot after a certain amount of time.
: how come bot mmr never climbs?
> [{quoted}](name=GreenTeaAndPoro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=49l6JNyx,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-11-11T05:31:50.209+0000) > > how come bot mmr never climbs? Because they only play co-op. Because their win-rate is lower than average. Because there aren't many bots playing above lvl 30. The way that MMR is set up, any normal player will win a *little* more often than they lose. But bots are probably more likely to lose, at least at the lowest levels, since a match with just one real player, that team will win. (If I'm a bot playing ARAM, the enemy team is %20 more likely than mine to have a real player on their side.)
: So how is it a stupid decision? You don’t get “rewarded” for playing most other video games, and they made it easier for people with lives. How is it a poor decision? If you enjoy the game you should play it no matter if you get some “reward” out of it. Are people stupid for playing games without rewards?
> [{quoted}](name=BladeSteel,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=n2ZAFzrr,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T00:32:08.106+0000) > > So how is it a stupid decision? You don’t get “rewarded” for playing most other video games, and they made it easier for people with lives. How is it a poor decision? If you enjoy the game you should play it no matter if you get some “reward” out of it. Are people stupid for playing games without rewards? The points and rewards progression in TFT is in place of the XP and BE earned from playing LoL. TFT matches do not give XP. Even a LoL co-op match gives a little XP (if the game is at least 7m long). The game isn't just the individual matches, but the mega-game of rewards progress. (Completing the full rewards set to the end, is actually an accomplishment.) Not only that, but the matches themselves can't be spectated or downloaded, and the match-history preserves very little. ("Every game is a story..." - but we don't even get THAT, with TFT.) ... Besides, there is a segment of players that is careful to play a couple matches of TFT daily JUST FOR THE REWARDS. (Like me, and many of my friends - https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rBE8oi8t-i-play-two-matched-of-tft-every-day-just-because-of-the-beta-rewards .) Those players, at least, will play less TFT. The players who play TFT over LoL so as to reap the exclusive rewards, will stop if there are no rewards to be earned through further play. Reading between the lines of the survey that Riot sent me, it seems that there was concern that players would become bored with the game after a few months. Informally, my impression from messages and postings on other forums, is that many or most of the players attracted initially have stopped playing, grew bored after a couple months. (But the game is still very popular, and also has an exclusive following.) ... Because, in some ways, TFT resembles the kinds of games that are associated with gambling. Not only the RNG element of the game itself, but many elements like drawing from a shared pool, building a hand, entering with a party of competing players - all of this tends to subconsciously feed into the expectation that there might be some reward earned from play, at least potentially. (And, indeed, there are private groups of players who, among themselves, make the play "interesting". This, besides the published tournaments.)
: Anybody worried about where all the bot accounts will play once Twisted Treeline is gone?
The bots already fill ARAM and SR (and SR co-op). You don't notice them, because you have long placed out of the lowest MMR where the bots play. It only takes about a dozen matches of 3v3 to stop seeing bots.
Tolinar (NA)
: Did you decide the orb resets in 3 days so people would play less TFT?
I really do think that they want people to play less TFT. The Orb was pretty much a guide last time, - 5 matches in a day, is enough. I'll assume it's to be treated the same way now. Speculations as to why? The game was solved fairly quickly last time... they don't want people to learn it too quickly. Or, perhaps, they expect play to rise in pre-season anyway. (Lots of players get depressed and disgusted with SR for the first couple months, and turn to ARAM, RGM, and probably TFT this year.) (Not here to argue about why people get upset in the early season, or whether it's a lot of people. It's a phenomenon that afflicts a number of players annually, as evidenced by complaints here, other forums, etc... whatever it is, I'd expect those people to be passing time on TFT while SR straightens itself out, and maybe the administration decided that folks didn't need further encouragement.)
Comentários de Rioters
: Zyra in TFT
Infernal is underwhelming, in general. Drops off to insignificance, a bit like Wild last Season. It's not comparable to Sorcerer, which it seems to have replaced. Infernal is useful, early, for building, with the cross-synergies. By late game, even the Gold Zyra got to be ditched. (The Gold Diana, if stacked well, could still be useful, however.) Summoner SHOULD be like Shapeshifters. Zed, set up well, is ridiculous... (The lvl 2 Swain was generally a guaranteed win... Zed is more than equal.) But Shadow / Mystic is stronger. I think 4x Shadow + 3x Summoner + Nami ... That's going to be very strong and only 8 units (7, if you keep Malzahar). There's no ally buffs this time around, except for Mystic, I think? (So 6x Light also becomes pretty strong...)
: luckiest guy ive ever seen.
He cheated, no doubt. Why can't we download replays of these matches, anyway?
Comentários de Rioters
FGamerTFT (EUNE)
: why?
> [{quoted}](name=FGamerTFT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcWtLape,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-11-08T09:23:19.807+0000) > > why? This has been my motto for a few months now. It refers to leaving previous Garen alone and not reworking him.
jovack (NA)
: 3 day Orb reset is a bit excessive
They don't want us to play that much. Last season the game was solved pretty quickly...
: So what happens to champions with Zz'rot as a core item
Yeah, it's not nice for them to just summarily remove this item. Frequently built on Singed and SIon as well...
Jugiatsu (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Nanny God Rita,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O0EvApMV,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-03T02:23:18.320+0000) > > Tokens with the pass are earn-able til November 19th. > First win of the day with pass is 18 tokens plus 12 for a win on S-Rift= 30tokens (1x a day) > > If you win about 10 games a day for the remainder of the event (17 days) With the pass you should be able to gain more then 2k tokens by the events end. Got it, thanks boss. Probably wont make that with the job and such but good to know for next year.
> [{quoted}](name=Jugiatsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O0EvApMV,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-03T02:52:45.229+0000) > > Got it, thanks boss. Probably wont make that with the job and such but good to know for next year. Winning 10 games doesn't take that long, if you just spam co-op. (And the pass comes with tokens. Also, I think that there's still a few more missions to be released?) (Plus, you can buy tokens. Technically, you could get 2000 Tokens even on the last day...) (Even after the event is over, for a few days, I think.)
: Im very doubtful anyone who voted to keep ohmwrecker in the game is actively using it in their games.
> [{quoted}](name=Dark Cøsmic Jhin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEEqit3O,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-22T23:36:03.216+0000) > > Im very doubtful anyone who voted to keep ohmwrecker in the game is actively using it in their games. I make it and use it. Not every game, or even most of them, but sometimes. I enjoy it a lot, when I do make it. I don't think that underuse is a good reason to remove an item, besides.
: It’s unfortunately not even evenly accelerated. Someone just gets the first elder and it’s instantly gg.
> [{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v89ovJZp,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-02T01:51:36.009+0000) > > It’s unfortunately not even evenly accelerated. Someone just gets the first elder and it’s instantly gg. We want longer, slower, URF matches.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000067,timestamp=2019-11-01T21:58:28.484+0000) > > I don’t think your approach on the way the game is intended to played is what is the underlying issue here. > > Your objective is to destroy the enemy nexus through interaction with your opponent on a micro and macro level as this gives numerous levels of outplay potential. > > An item like Zz’rot portal encourages a purely macro level of play style that encourages non interaction. Riot has the data they can see what this kind of metric would be. There decision to remove the item will be based on the observation that players are beginning to adopt this approach and since it does not line up with the philosophy of what league currently is they do not wish for it to be in the game. You can observe the games of the players you mentioned to me for reference of what that game state looks like. > > If game balance at a later state shifts to accommodate a more macro style of play then we will likely see the item return. > > As for my one personal opinion that the item is bad I will stand by that statement as I have never in the thousands of games that I have played this game seen that item perform in a manner that decided it’s outcome since it’s rework. It just requires too much recourses to be good and none of the good split pushers need it to be relevant. There newest split item that grants insane attack speed when nobody is around will be nutty. Part of why I build the item less frequently is Wit's End changes. There are a few armour items that give MS. When they added %5 to Wit's End, then that cut into my ZZ'rot Portals on Shyvana. (Perhaps this was even intentional.) The recent Garen changes have made this item less attractive to me, for him, as well. ... I made this item hundreds of times. I know about twice as much about this trivial, soon-to-be-defunct item, now, than I did a week ago. I have a higher estimation of this item now than I did a week ago, and I am more likely to build it (while it yet exists).
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000063,timestamp=2019-11-01T18:05:07.967+0000) > > It was literally changing he algorithm of how the villian was determined it was not big and was in place for a month. > > When things like that are changed an a ability it doesn’t exactly scream ( most balanced thing on league ) > > Not to mention it has now been removed from the game. Garen is a champion with a very large playerbase, extremely disproportionately represented by low MMR. Villain mechanic is... a mechanic. It's very strong, but it has to be used, and low MMR players largely ignored it. The mechanic was often frustrating even to experienced players, since it occasionally landed on a target of low value and inaccessible. (But this was part of the balance of the ability; if it worked all the time then it would have been oppressive and removed long ago.) It was removed because the Garen players (mostly low-mmr), didn't like it. That's the only reason. (High MMR-Garens are universally disgusted and nearly all have just stopped playing him, at this time. Maybe you're of the opinion that Garen actually shouldn't be playable in high MMR, and he belongs to the lower divisions...) (The Garen Yuumi bottom lane is an exception. High MMR is still having success with this.) (Personally, I have to admit that my own games are better. But I KNOW that I'm not playing better; Garen has just become a dumber champion.) You and me, have switched sides, on this argument. Usually you side with the administration and I side with the players. I will say though, that being the very end of the season, it is possible that circumstances may emerge in a couple of months where I would change my mind. (However, based on what I've seen so far, I'm not optimistic...)
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000064,timestamp=2019-11-01T18:41:03.278+0000) > > Ok so I exists in plat vivision and have existed there for the majority of the season , I have played well over 300 games this season and in that time I have seen xxrot portal built three times > > once on a udyr > > once on a bard > > once on a yorick > > In every instance the player in question chose to build this item instead of a core item for that champion resulting in team fight situations in which those champions could not perform at a correct level. > > I know and understand my mmr bracket my opinion in formed through my experience in my mmr bracket. If you wish to have an educated opinion on plat I would suggest you climb to it and experience it for yourself. > > Just like the removal of anything in league be it deathfire touch , hunters potion , poachers or in this instance zzrot portal there will always be outcry by those uninformed. > > I have learned and experienced so much in this game and a part of that is understanding what is healthy for the game so > I reiterate to watch the replays of the high mmr players in question that you have provided . Is that honestly your opinion on how this game should be played ? I have asked you this three times and you have avoided the question. What a dumb question. Really. Maybe I don't have the right attitude. Maybe I have a really simplistic, barebones approach. To my way of thinking this is a game about killing 5 towers an inhib and the nexus. Hitting the nexus is all that counts, no matter what. Whatever helps you do that better, is the right way to play. You've grasping at straws to make an argument that is really only your own. The item isn't egregious, in its current form. (As far as items go, its weak, by evidence of usage.) Everything that I can see shows that it's being used as intended, by appropriate champions, in appropriate situations. Nothing about the item or its usage has really changed in three years, except that meta has resulted in a decline. THIS CONFLICTS WITH THE IDEA THAT THE ITEM IS UNHEALTHY FOR THE GAME. The people voicing their support here, aren't doing it just because they hate RIot. Every person who upvoted or posted in support does NOT see a problem with leaving the item in the game. There has been no outcry from players at any level, in any venue, to have the item removed. I'm not even that upset with Riot at this point. Their position was expressed with some restraint and balance. They could have gone either way. They finally decided to leave it behind. YOU have amplified and exaggerrated the other side, and it's unwarranted. ... What does my opinion matter? These are high mmr players. I think that they know how to play the game. And Riot expressed, clearly, that indeed they wanted the game to be played this way. They actually said, regarding the final adjustment to the item... leave it in lane and go teamfight, gank. Is it really different from pushing a lane without the item, and running around? A few champions have abilities that accomplish similar without their presence. It's simply not logical to make the statements that you've been making, based on the history of this item. This item warrants no compelling censure. I've explained why many players feel disenfranchised. A significant portion have hit on what I think was a major underlying issue for the items removal: They wanted the component. I believe that Riot actually didn't want to deal with that component for some reason. (Or else they could have just as easily have left Ohmwrecker in the game, right? They admitted that THAT item had committed no offense at all.) It would have taken about 20 minutes of directed thought to think of an appropriate item active. And then everybody would have been happy.
: OFA doesn’t have an easy to kill 5 dragon buff elder dragon spawning at 6 minutes into the game. Nor does it have 300 gold per turret platings with turret plating made to be easier to kill. Nor does it have cannon which allows losing teams to int faster and winning teams to reliably defend against any pushes by the losing team, almost regardless of how badly they (the winning team) play it.
> [{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v89ovJZp,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-11-01T13:26:28.734+0000) > > OFA doesn’t have an easy to kill 5 dragon buff elder dragon spawning at 6 minutes into the game. Nor does it have 300 gold per turret platings with turret plating made to be easier to kill. Nor does it have cannon which allows losing teams to int faster and winning teams to reliably defend against any pushes by the losing team, almost regardless of how badly they (the winning team) play it. Right. I was happy that OFA was relatively unaccelerated. I don't know why it was necessary to do that to URF. It didn't used to be...
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000005d,timestamp=2019-10-31T22:08:47.374+0000) > > No you are telling me two different things. > > You tell me that the item is a niche item that nobody uses. No. This is what YOU said. > > It is also built 20% of the time on a select number of champions with a 65% winrate. That right tells you it is overtuned for such a small number of champions. > The high winrate may have more to do with it not being a core item on any of these. USUALLY built later in the match. Indeed, this was your own contention: that players only made the item once they were so far ahead that it didn't matter. I see it being built 2nd item or later... but even if it's getting built late half the time, that would tend to give it a higher winrate. Also, I didn't see a %65 winrate. I saw something more like %56. > With that information is riots decision not justified? Again. You'll defend the decision to remove the item, using whatever argument is convenient. You spent most of this thread deriding it as a useless utterly unused item that would never show its face above Gold. When I showed that appropriate champions do build the item, with normal winrates, you reversed and said that it was op, and unsporting. It should be obvious that neither extreme can be correct, or it wouldn't have survived unchanged for all these years. (Well, I suppose if it was really unused then it might still have been sufferred, since Ohmwrecker was. But it's actually built more frequently than Stalkers Bloodrazor. There's 150 champions. The only champion released in the past three years who would possibly make the item is Ornn. So, its frequency is bound to decline.) Riot did not cite underuse or noob trap as a reason for removing it. They said that they didn't like the nature of the item active. The last couple times that any changes were made to the item, the changes were made with the intent of encouraging that active. This sort of caprice encourages the expression of dissenting opinion and dissatisfaction. It's a relatively small thing. Considering the overall frequency of use, not worth Riot doing any more work on it, by now.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000005d,timestamp=2019-10-31T22:08:47.374+0000) > > No you are telling me two different things. > > You tell me that the item is a niche item that nobody uses. > > It is also built 20% of the time on a select number of champions with a 65% winrate. That right tells you it is overtuned for such a small number of champions. > > With that information is riots decision not justified? This was a response to a statement that you made, that I quoted in the response. You said: "Like honestly if I built this item in a plat game I would be flamed to hell." (You also said: "I’m in plat and it is never used and plat does not even have good players." and you said that you never see it any of your games at all.) But if the item has a rather high frequency (in Plat+) on a few champions, then that shouldn't be true. Odds are, a Yorick, Singed, or Sion, did make the item in a few of your matches. Certainly, if you were playing Yorick and made the item, wouldn't expect you to get flamed...
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000005c,timestamp=2019-10-31T22:06:22.573+0000) > > I really don’t feel you have been playing this game very long from your approach in this topic. > > Garen villian mechanic received a massive overall very soon after its release due to the way it selected the villian within each game. > > The way you describe garen is without a doubt a biased perspective when you claim a portion of his kit to be the most balanced thing to grace this game. > > The reality simply comes down to the simple fact we play the game from two very different perspectives. When you are playing the game with 10 people of equal skill level and knowledge the game truly is amazing. Yet you do not get that experience rather games of extreme disorganization and skewed ingame talent creating a far different game experience than what I partake in. Generally, when things exist in this game for extended periods with minimal change, I (and I'm not alone in this) see that as evidence of good design. Villain Mechanic wasn't perfect. But it served a purpose. It was legit. It was an improvement over what Garen had, and how he functioned, beforehand. What Garen has now, from the standpoint of quality, of his kit, is worse. Objectively. This isn't my own opinion, and I don't need to defend it to you. Riot is going to do that for me. Sometime before 10.3. What is peculiar is that you consider my opinion biased as a Garen Main, since the mechanic was generally reviled by Garen Mains. (Indeed, this was the stated reason for removing it.)
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000005c,timestamp=2019-10-31T22:06:22.573+0000) > > I really don’t feel you have been playing this game very long from your approach in this topic. > > Garen villian mechanic received a massive overall very soon after its release due to the way it selected the villian within each game. > > The way you describe garen is without a doubt a biased perspective when you claim a portion of his kit to be the most balanced thing to grace this game. > > The reality simply comes down to the simple fact we play the game from two very different perspectives. When you are playing the game with 10 people of equal skill level and knowledge the game truly is amazing. Yet you do not get that experience rather games of extreme disorganization and skewed ingame talent creating a far different game experience than what I partake in. You mean the patch after it was released, they fixed what was essentially a bug, removing Garen from the Villain reckoning. Otherwise, Garen opposing laner would be Villain. Considering the design of the mechanic, that was probably always the way that it was intended to function.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000005b,timestamp=2019-10-31T21:57:46.000+0000) > > You approach currently is still a personal attack you do realize that ? I don't see how. I hardly know you.
: why do ppl AFK in aram
Yeah, it's a more casual game. People play ARAM when they are testing their client, when they are falling asleep, etc...
Jaspers (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Fìzž,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ewapouW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-31T09:02:00.367+0000) > > Isn't the point of urf to be a fast game that's either a stomp or a loss? No, it's short cooldowns and fun. Who wants short games of URF? It just means going back into another and going through loading screens again.
> [{quoted}](name=Jaspers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ewapouW,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-10-31T10:10:56.263+0000) > > No, it's short cooldowns and fun. Who wants short games of URF? It just means going back into another and going through loading screens again. Yeah, I agree with this. Why does URF need to be further accelerated? Can't it just be an otherwise normally paced SR? (It used to be?)
: I didn't expect URF to be this bad...
This is why we haven't seen URF in almost a year. (OFA would be even worse, I think.) Having said that - there really should be a custom mode. I can't think of any reason not to have URF customs. I'd also like the option to put bots in my HA customs. Not sure why that isn't allowed...
ImAceee (EUW)
: Can I use some custom letters on my club's tag?
Can we get club membership expanded? 100 slots isn't enough, especially for the "official" champion mains etc...
CapRiven (EUNE)
: Can i get banned in URF For Dieing a lot?
It's a troll mode. You'd have to exhibit obvious behavioral disruption. If you don't use chat, then you're probably nearly immune to any reprehension, even more so than in the regular game. Maybe avoid the cannon until you're a little better at it? ... Re-reading your post: Were you (actually) intentionally feeding?
GankLord (NA)
: Are we getting a buff to vision in the new season?
We WANT more vision. We could sure use it. They could just revert the most recent vision nerfs, letting us carry as many CW as we wish, returning the full duration of the stealth wards, and re-instating green smite. But they won't. The map changes are there as a kind of vision nerf. It's intentional. They're getting creative with removing vision, because we're getting fed up with repeated direct nerfs. (It looks bad. Ha! Get it?)
69VBucks (EUW)
: bring banner of command back season 10
Raptor Cloak being the common ingredient, I suspect that part of the (unstated) reason that these items are going away, may be related to that item.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000055,timestamp=2019-10-31T14:24:36.297+0000) > > If you believe personal attacks are acceptable at a particular time of day then idk what to say dude. *laugh* No. I think that human beings tend to be prone to err in the wee hours.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000056,timestamp=2019-10-31T14:30:04.467+0000) > > Garen has required change for a long time due to his villian mechanic and w the argument that others needed it more is not a valid argument you can argue every champion requires change one way or another. In this case there's an actual official list of champions that need it more. Meanwhile Garen was acknowledged to have been in a relatively healthy spot for the few months prior to his rework. Garen Villain mechanic, frequently bemoaned, was one of the most stable, well-designed (also elegant) mechanics in the game. (As you can attest, some of the best feature, are frequently the most underappreciated.) It had been completely untouched from its creation until its removal. Garen could get nerfed and buffed, but his R was considered completely independently balanced. My being a Garen main should have NOTHING to do with my opinion; the impetus for the changes CAME from Garen mains! They were the ones who complained MOST. My opinion should be a testament to my objectivity in this matter, if anything. You're really out of touch. > > He is another example of a failed previous season in this instance the juggernaut update which brought about some of the stalests meta to ever grace league. > However. Either way, you need to admit that serious mistakes were made. In your view, the mistakes were made earlier, when Garen was juggernauted. In this case, you're also being critical of a company with gobs of experience and data. So the example is completely relevant, no matter which side you take. > Previous patch he was given due too much dueling potential giving him the highest winrate in top lane. This patch they tuned it down. > You really don't pay attention. > The champion struggles with having a very simple kit that is either far too good or far too bad the pendulum swings too hard. > > Simply out garen requires change and riot is working to put it in a healthy spot. They recognize frustrating gameplay mechanics and work to adjust. He really didn't need the attention when they were doing this. Again, it's amazing that you insist on these statements while defending Riot, when the Rioters working on the project made explicit statements to the contrary. Unlike yourself, I am frequently critical of the administration. If ME and RIOT agree on something, then you should consider that it may actually be correct.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000054,timestamp=2019-10-31T14:23:24.919+0000) > > So your telling me the item has a .1% buildrate but also built 1/5 times on particular champions. > > I feel like I am being messed with here lol. Pay attention. It was a response to a comment. (But I guess that that was hyperbole.)
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000a,timestamp=2019-10-29T21:50:53.307+0000) > Like honestly if I built this item in a plat game I would be flamed to hell. ZZ'rot has %20 build-rate on Yorick in plat+ and %15 on Singed in plat+.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000004f,timestamp=2019-10-31T08:49:52.414+0000) > > Your constant personal attacks show your weakening resolve in this argument dude I don’t know what to say very disappointed. > I been talking to you for months. You normally write better. Just saying. (At this hour, it's no "personal attack".)
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000004f,timestamp=2019-10-31T08:49:52.414+0000) > > Your constant personal attacks show your weakening resolve in this argument dude I don’t know what to say very disappointed. > > Garen has been an issue for a rather long time between his villian mechanic and the tankiness from his w. > > I watched multiple matches in worlds where garen was the strongest frontline imaginable while also having the capacity to duel without par. Garen been utterly absent from pro play for 9 years. The only thing that he had was Yuumi. Yuumi, in general, is op on any similar juggernaut. Garen just happenned to be the best one. *I* ALSO initially thought that the rework was a response to Garen presence in Worlds. We were told repeatedly that it had nothing to do with Yuumi. The changes hardly affect Garen ability to fill that role. And aside from Yuumi, Garen has had no presence in pro. (This is the champion that they made a video about two months ago "Worst Champion Ever" (based on his complete absence from pro, and minimal representation in high MMR). Would you believe that the rework was sponsored by riste, and intended to make Garen MORE playable in high MMR? (This is all true.) > > He required change. Others required it more. He had a healthy (but not TOO healthy) winrate across the board two months ago. The very best players were able to make him function effectively above diamond. INSTEAD they made him stronger at low MMR and unplayable at high MMR. It's a mistake. If Riot admits that they screwed up, then why do you insist that they did not?
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000004d,timestamp=2019-10-31T08:40:43.805+0000) > > Shouldn’t you trust in a game company that managed to stay on top for the last decade? > > Is that not an indication that they know what they are doing game wise ? This is the most complicated game in the world. You could get it %90 right and still make hundreds of mistakes. So, no. They get it right most of the time, and that's why we're here. They eventually fix the biggest mistakes, but it's frequently a painful interim for many of us while that sorts itself out. They make many mistakes. They point out many of these in patch notes and official statements. They are not above criticism. Again, that's why we're here. And really... nothing human merits that kind of consideration. The best, most enduring products of our species have been constructed to correct flaws that were presumed to have been present by the inventors, although unrecognized. The Constitution of the United States has endured as the oldest extant Government. And the strength of it is, that it was written to be adaptable and amended. This game itself is patched every two weeks. "Patch" is only partly a misnomer, much of it is real patching. And reading the notes they say, implicitly and explicitly, "this was a mistake, we're fixing it." Taking a high ground that these people are above reproach and benefit nothing from our comments and input... is silly. Your position is unrealistic, even by the standards of this video game.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000004b,timestamp=2019-10-31T08:31:49.680+0000) > > We cannot discuss balance issues with garen sadly you are too emotionally connected to the champion. > We could. But I'd have to unfold an entire history that you are ignorant of. Unlike the topic of this discussion, with regard to the Garen rework there was extensive communication and considerable transparency about the process. But the few statements that you have made ... Look, you're the one who trusts Rioter judgement implicitly. They said essentially the opposite of all of these things. Nobody (except you) really thinks that what happenned at Worlds has much to do with Garen at all. (Indeed the one thing that Garen can still do relatively well, is play like he did at Worlds. THAT niche role has been least affected.) What we do know, is that the end result is approximately the exact opposite of what they intended. Meddler has hinted as much in recent comments here, besides. > The lost of items being removed was leaked and the items now removed where on the lost what else can I tell you lol I feel you just don’t like to hear the truth. I think that you'll probably spell/grammer better in the morning, too.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000049,timestamp=2019-10-31T08:29:28.182+0000) > > Once again though riot has the data they can see all of the numbers why do you know better than they that this item Is healthy for the game state ? > > I trust in logic and logic dictates that the one who holds the cards knows how to deal them not the spectator looking in. "Might Makes Right" ; I doubt that you conduct the rest of your existence according to that logic. In any event, the object of your ideology doesn't pretend to merit that sort of confidence.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000048,timestamp=2019-10-31T08:25:18.987+0000) > > The items where slated for removal if you spent time on Reddit this information would have been yours far earlier. I would suggest you visit it in the future. > Meddler said, of Ohmwrecker, famously, that he would LIKE to remove it, but he didn't think that it could be done, and it wasn't bothering anybody, anyway. And again, why work on an item cosmetics, slated for removal? > If anything worlds has been a perfect example of the problems garen has as a champion. You're drunk, to make a statement like that. You'll reconsider your observation in the morning, I won't bother to refute you now. (There is so much wrong with what you said.)
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000044,timestamp=2019-10-31T08:14:34.909+0000) > > You are honestly going to tell me that you believe garens previous iteration represented even the slightest bit of balance ? *laugh* They're talking about reverting the rework. By "they", I mean that it was already suggested by the developer who implemented it. > > That champion required so much toning down which they have done. Boy, you'll just take the opposite side of any argument at all. Really? THAT'S your contention?! Garen was OP two months ago, so they decided to nerf him by equalizing Villain mechanic and giving him an attack speed scaling?! Because this would be a surprise to the guys who worked on the changes. > > As well half way through this season the list of items being removed was leaked onto Reddit sojun Ohmwrecker and Zz’rot where all on there. I even discussed on this board how sojun was being removed months back but nobody believed me lol. Shojin was doomed. We all knew that, and expected it. ZZ'rot and Ohmwrecker had been specifically mentioned that they wouldn't be removed. Especially Ohmwrecker. (But, if so... then you have to wonder why they bother working on the item cosmetically, then...)
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-26T01:29:03.929+0000) > > I didn't even say pro players? Pro is like, a different game. I said high MMR. I stand by that. The items see play in high MMR even if it infrequent. I mentioned, famously, riste, a respected Challenger player. He made Ohmwrecker at least once (ON GAREN!) in the past few months, and ZZ'rot several times. That's just one example, the stats and documentation show that we can find thousands more if we care to look. (If you look at riste record by the way, you may be surprised to see that he also builds cull ... frequently. He doesn't even sell it.) > > I'm not sure which one of us is trolling at this point? We're having an ongoing argument for three days, where you keep insisting that nobody ever builds these items. Meanwhile, player after player is raising his hand by adding support for the OP in this very thread. > > It's also entirely possible for an item to be good in low MMR and bad in high MMR. Challengers don't play the same when they smurf. Just as some champions are better in high MMR than in low MMR. > > The items were permitted to exist in a benign state for years. They were finally deleted because they were suddenly discovered to conflict with riot plan for the upcoming season. It could have been handled a lot better. Many of us are disappointed. So you are not able to provide evidence of any high mmr player using the time in some niche way beyond hear say on a biased board ? I enjoy our conversations tbh <3
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H6uNJNhu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000003d,timestamp=2019-10-31T07:49:30.927+0000) > > I feel that is the issue right there that a lot of people don’t really think about. > > It’s the same issue people are having such a hard time with urf right now. There are many things like Zz’rot portal that is it feel absolutely horrible to lose to and for you to enjoy the Zz’rot strat or in urf the go fast jhin you need someone to pull the strat off on. > > Losing to things outside of your control is what creates so much anger in this game and that is the kind of gameplay Zz’rot creates. It’s a play style of avoiding your opponent and pushing objectives as fast as possible. Which just is not what league is about. But ZZ'rot portal hasn't generated that kind of emotion. Not in recent memory. if people had been complaining about it, then you wouldn't be seeing this kind of support for the item. I don't see anybody making posts defending gold-funneling. You've mentioned several times that the item is simply ineffective in high MMR. Players learn to spot the item and take it out quickly. It's not different from any other mechanic that players learn to handle better at high MMR. (This is probably why the item is so efficient. The active, in competent settings of play, is not very strong. It's less annoying than a lot of the other @#$%^& in this game (even Villain Ults). Based on everything that you've posted, I can't believe that you've found this item to be frustrating at any time in the past few years...) (And really, you seem to be the kind of guy who gets frustrated by nothing at all.)
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