Meddler (NA)
: There's some Ryze experimentation going on at present, cautiously optimistic it'll be worth shipping at least some of it. Wouldn't call it a revert though and don't think we've got any reason to believe past versions of Ryze were more balanceable even if his current state has issues too.
Sounds like it's early on and nothing has been committed to yet, but is there anything you can tell us about directions that are being tried / goals of experimentation?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 20
Are you happy with Ryze's current level of presence in competitive play? Or is he in line for nerfs?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 15
Ryze is showing presence in pro again -- is it an acceptable level of presence, or are there some nerfs in the works?
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: There are a few issues we see with Crit items being effective against tanks and less useful against squishies post the changes. 1. Hitting tanks as your optimal DPS pattern isn't as exciting as finding opportunities to go take out their backline. 2. The tank passive ended up being much better in Pro play compared to regular play, with the result being that Crit Marksmen were more useful in Pro compared to normal play (which then makes them less satisfying in regular play). 3. Satisfaction with split damage numbers (true and physical) is lower.
If you simply revert the crit changes, won't we go back to a game state where late game marksmen are 2 or 3 hitting other squishies? How do we avoid repeating the problems that existed before the midseason 8 patch?
Meddler (NA)
: Nothing immediately, though that's not to say we're happy with his current delta in performance between organized play and regular games which we've had to balance around.
I'd really like to hear Riot's thoughts at some point on the overall problem of champ soloq / pro-play differential, and why it seems that a growing number of champs have developed this problem in the past few years (Ryze, Azir, Kalista, Zac, Sejuani, Ornn, etc.)
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Speaking to the AP fighter itemisation, Solcrushed and I are looking at something as a slow burn project to address this itemisation hole.
That's really interesting. What kinds of champions do you think would be served by AP Fighter itemization (besides Singed)? And how would you prevent AP Tanks from tapping into it (or would you like it to be an option for them)?
Meddler (NA)
: We've sunk enormous amounts of time into Ryze, Azir and Kalista over the years because of how much better they perform in pro than regular play. In order to put that time into other champs and projects that need work too we decided this year that for a while we'd just balance those champs so they weren't pick/ban, too close to it, or on a path to it, in pro. Our suspicion is that, in his current state, Ryze will be too dominant at Worlds so he's on our radar for possible nerfs. We'll probably hold off on those until 8.18 or 8.19 and then do them then, assuming they still look needed, given 8.19 is the World's patch.
Aside from Ryze, Azir, and Kalista, you've got stuff like Ornn, Gnar, Sejuani, Zac, support Kench, and Gragas who all suffer from this problem to varying degrees. Given that an increasing number of champions are ending up on the list of "can't be balanced for normal players because of competitive", is there any thought being given at Riot to a better long term solution?
: I remember {{champion:268}} and {{champion:13}} had small reworks scheduled, and then they got iceboxed. Will they receive any changes in the near future?
No, they're officially abandoned. They will be balanced exclusively for pro play indefinitely.
AD Yuumi (NA)
: Or AoE gold card TF? There are SOME past things coming back BTW ;)
In Nexus Blitz? Or in general?
: Why is it that football, chess, baseball, basketball and so forth have been around for so long and they don't need to change? They all still have players. They all still have fans. Give us more skins. Give us better graphics at a slow pace. Give us a new item or two occasionally. We don't need total champion reworks just tweaks. We don't need 400 new champions. We don't need ever changing runes and masteries. In fact why not just delete the runes? Counter play can be done entirely in the shop by counter building. Give us some more diverse starting options perhaps. We don't need constant summoner spell tweaks. We don't need counters to counter building. How does it make any damn sense to have items that completely negate counter building. If I build Armor and you build a pen item then I just have less armor, you have pen, and you have damage. How the fuck do I ever come out on top of that race?
Sports change all the time. Back in the day, baseball pitchers were supposed to throw the ball so the batter could hit it; trying to make them swing and miss was BM. More recently, look at steroids and all the rules about them. You don't like a change, OK. But if the game never changed, most people would just start playing something else.
Meddler (NA)
: Should have some thoughts on upcoming ADC item changes in the next post. Crit item satisfaction and power curve are the likely things we'll look at, talking details internally over the next couple of days. Probably includes Zeal item changes to avoid overcapping on crit.
Two concerns with Crit itemisation buffs: How will you avoid going back to the "Marksman spike hard and reliably every game at two items" problem that 8.11 addressed? If you change the overcap problem, how will you avoid making triple crit items mandatory again? Or is that an acceptable state for crit itemisation?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 11
Any insight on Nasus changes on PBE?
Meddler (NA)
: We would yeah. Yorick's the one we're confident enough needs changes to do so in 8.12, rather than waiting to see where champions land after both the Sterak's change and Atma's/Spear.
Is the Q CD buff on PBE the likely direction for Yorick, or are other things being looked at?
: Graves seemed solid with the Spear but has a hard time getting it early since a lot of the items he often buys (PD, Cleaver, GA) don't have a lot of AD on them or don't have AD at all, which is needed to scale the Spear of Shojin. It's more of a lategame option for him than other champions since his best builds are often a bit lower on AD than is needed for a good early Spear buy. On Urgot, I'm a huge fan of Atma's. I didn't like Spear of Shojin too much since I felt like it pushed him too much towards a damage build and he couldn't get tanky enough, but Atma's is awesome since it lets him build a bit more damage than just BC without sacrificing his durability much.
You think Urgot will feel relevant in teamfights post 30 minutes with Atmas? That was always the biggest problem I had with him.
: > [{quoted}](name=JusticePauldrons,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNxPK9k2,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-05-18T01:06:05.104+0000) > > What the hell is this supposed to be? WHERE IS THE CRIT CHANCE? {{sticker:garen-swing}} have you seen the other item? in its current state, its going to make garens spin literally deal 0 damage, since it removes a flat amount off every damage instance. during the active, it removes 20 + 30% ad off every spin tick, lol. and its not restricted to melee. its like the next couple of patches are an indirect nerf spree against the champion. - adc are going to crit the shit out of him through his w with true damage - trigage is nerfed, when it was currently his strongest item combo. - only the new impaler is useful for him as 4th item or so, in return there is a new item that makes his spin deal no damage when bought by his opponents
The passive on Spear or Shojin works at 30% strength against tick damage, like Garen's E. So it will reduce 3+4.5% bonus AD per tick, or 9+13.5% bonus AD per tick with the 3 nearby enemies bonus. Still good against him but not as disgusting as you might think.
Meddler (NA)
: Because a lot of the time the difference in mitigation (Armor/MR) between the targets we're trying to equalize is much larger than the difference in health pools. % health damage is a really useful tool too though certainly.
Is there a situation where you'd favor %HP damage over true damage or penetration?
: Still hopeful on that direction, waiting to see how fighter items settle before deciding on a ship date.
Cool. thanks for the update.
Meddler (NA)
: We're trying two different items, though no guarantee both, or even either, ship yet. One's focused on providing resistance to ongoing damage in teamfights (versus Sterak's anti-burst role). The other's a later in the game damage multiplier with some defensive stats (but less bound to AA patterns/AOE than Titanic is). More details, assuming testing goes well, just before they're ready to PBE.
Steraks: A few weeks ago you mentioned you were looking at uncoupling Steraks from Trinity Force and giving it power elsewhere. Is that still being worked on, or did that direction not seem fruitful?
: That seems rather complicated when compared to the option of simply nerfing the value...
: I'm the playtester on Ryze: Currently feel like the direction is promising (think weak early but strong lategame is reasonable) but think that the early game is too hard to overcome currently. Will sync up with Reportoir today and find out where he's at, but currently I believe him to be quite underpowered. His changes are not slated for 8.10 though, so don't worry!
Sick, I'd be happy to hear more on the direction you're taking him if Repertoir said anything you could share.
Kadexe (EUW)
: Do you think "true damage creep" is going to be a problem with the recent introduction of Conqueror, and now the new Infinity Edge?
That's an easy fix, all we need is an item that converts a % of your armor and MR into True Resistances which can't be reduced by penetration or ignored by true damage! If that becomes a problem, we can give champions access to Pure Damage to help them cut through True Resistances. That should solve it! :P
: PBE Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.10
Thoughts on the Ryze and Azir work going on the PBE this patch? Any concerns that the new IE might actually still be too strong? I could be wrong but the math looks like it actually hits harder late game than old IE.
Meddler (NA)
: Lower priority. They'll probably still get some work in that regard, but it won't take priority over work on other champions to the degree it has in the past.
It would be hard for you to make Ryze a lower priority than he's been the last year. Ever since his Season 6 VGU, he's been a problem, and while Rioters have repeatedly said that he was going to be worked on, that work was always delayed, and delayed, and delayed. He was supposed to get an overhaul in preseason 7; it was delayed to do Runes work. He was supposed to get an update in season 8; it was delayed to finish Swain's VGU. Now he's just not going to be worked on at all. At this point I'd rather you just deleted him from the game until you are ready to support his non-professional player base again.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 23
So basically, Ryze doesn't meaningfully exist for most players anymore. Cool. Good job, Riot.
: Locket stuff is still highly experimental. We already have direction that's considerably different than this testing internally.
I know there were problems with the version of Locket you folks tested on the last PBE cycle, but what I really liked about it was that it mattered a lot at what point in time you cast it. Because it was damage reduction instead of a shield, you needed to predict when your teammates were going to take damage and use it right beforehand to get the full effect, as opposed to the live Locket which is pretty much equally effective cast on a full or low health ally. I hope some kind of additional skill test / unreliability like that makes it into the final version.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 21
Now that Swain's update has been out for a bit, any chance the designer will resume work on a gameplay update for Ryze? His pro-play / soloq performance split remains an Azir scale problem.
: I do play Juggernauts, mostly Illaoi and Urgot but I do play all the others to some degree as well. Feelings on them is that while some are individually strong and good in the current meta, they don't have great itemization across the board though there are some exceptions (Illaoi is perfectly happy with her build path as is). As far as enjoyment goes, I think Darius and Illaoi are hitting the mark but Urgot feels a little off right now - which probably has to do with the current toplane meta being mostly matchups he's not super happy about. Depending on how broad your definition of Juggernaut is, you might also consider champions like Volibear, Trundle, and Yorick as well. They are doing well and in my opinion are all quite strong - Voli and Trundle are even competitively viable and Yorick is probably not far off. They all seem to be doing well on enjoyment too. At least in my personal experience I quite enjoy all of them right now, though I wouldn't pick Trundle or Yorick blind at the moment given the toplane meta. As counterpicks they feel quite good.
Any thoughts on what the item system isn't giving Juggernauts that would make them feel better?
: If Urgot as a ranged champion is an exception, why not Corki? There's no elegant or effective way to exclude the problematic abuse cases and still allow Urgot to purchase the item (we actually did try a lot of different tech to try and meaningfully split the new Sterak's off from being good on most ranged characters but still work on Urgot, but didn't find anything that worked). Even if Urgot were allowed to buy Sterak's as a one-of exception to the melee-only clause, how is that communicated? Why would anyone ever try to buy Sterak's on him knowing that the item is melee only and he's ranged? Sure, one inconsistency in the rules may not seem like a big deal but it's hard to see where you draw the line once exceptions to hard rules like "melee only" start being made.
Why not Corki? Because Steraks is a juggernaut item, and Urgot is a juggernaut, whereas Corki is a marksman. Because letting Corki be a highly durable bruiser leads to much less interesting game play than letting Urgot be a highly durable bruiser (his intended playstyle). I think the other concerns are legit, but "we can't make exceptions" is a little silly. But if you don't give him access to a key juggernaut item, my question is: what else can you do to let him scale with items?
: I agree with this to some degree, but also feel that Urgot as a ranged Juggernaut breaks a lot of rules in the game. In my opinion, the item system in League can't be held hostage to rulebreakers or it will fail to properly serve the majority of champions - it's better to fix itemization for the majority of the cast and deal with outliers than to allow outliers to dictate game-warping itemization. If Urgot needs help because his itemization is bad that's a separate problem from Mallet and we should treat it as such. Generally though I agree with you, I don't think Urgot's itemization options are very good.
Why not give Urgot an exception to allow him to build Steraks? Doesn't seem like it would be gamebreaking on him, but it would help him scale better with items.
: Wait I thought it was just altered? How is it removed?
Pretty sure he just means, the removal of Lost Chapter's gold advantage over Catalyst, since they're both 1100 gold after changes. Now he won't be stuck on a health and mana Crystal while his opponent has Lost Chapter unless he really did badly before the first back.
Meddler (NA)
: Looking for topics for Friday's post
Topic: Champs with huge pro play / solo Q performance splits A lot of the reworks and new champs that have come out in the last few years have been pick/ban in pro play while being balanced or even undertuned in soloQ. See: Ryze, Azir, Zoe. Why do we think this is happening, and what can we do about it?
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: We definitely explored reducing the cost of deathcap, but ultimately felt it was more fitting as a late game fantasy item for a large AP multiplier. Trying to find a good balance between what is compelling decision making and what is fun is a tough problem. I'll see what compromises we can make here regarding build path or cost.
I really like what you did with Morellonomicon, recognizing that the vast majority of mages are bound to three core stats (mana, CDR, and AP), and giving them a choice between 3 items with those stats but different passives / actives. Much more of a meaningful choice. Any chance that could happen with Void Staff or Death Cap at some point? My issue with Death Cap (and Void Staff too) is less about their numerical balance, and more that they create a situation where almost all mages have 2 mandatory purchases later in the game.
: Not a bug. I confirmed in a thread on /r/RyzeMains for verification. We're currently planning on shipping this change.
For the record, it is insanely frustrating as a Ryze player, to see the gameplay tweaks Ryze needs to make him balance-able between competitive and soloq get pushed back over and over. And having nerfs in the meantime because of competitive play with no larger balance fix in sight feels like being kicked while we're down.
Meddler (NA)
: Still planned. We had to pull the designer working on the Ryze stuff onto the Champion team instead to help out with a project there. Not sure if we'll do Ryze after he's back on Live Gameplay or if we'll get someone else to take over the work yet. Will get to it though.
I'm glad to hear you're still planning on addressing him at some point, but it's disheartening for Ryze players to see his changes get pushed back and back and back. I know there's lots of other projects that need attention, and I appreciate you updating us with what info is available, but I really wish finally balancing Ryze for soloq was a higher priority. He's been a problem champ since season 4, and he's felt bad to play either as or against pretty much that whole time.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
Are the Grasp changes on PBE something that would ship in 7.24b or 8.1?
: Lackluster team fight. That's it. Of course he's a siege master with a huge team MS buff ability... so... he doesn't really have to pick team fights that aren't to his advantage. So... None really. Sorry. All the transformers are the same. They don't actually have weaknesses (except strategic ones) and are poor design philosophy.
Nidalee (when balanced) is a decent example of a transformer with trade offs. After they took away a lot of her siege power by transferring spear damage into a mark that she had to go into melee range to use, she actually needed to put herself in harm's way to be effective, like other Skirmisher / Assassin type champs. They could do a similar thing with Jayce and make him a real Skirmisher. Or they could take away some of his kiting power to make him a real Artillery champ. I think an artillery champ who can also jump into melee range is a cool idea, but allowing him to do all that and also easily escape from fights he doesn't want is just too much.
TehNACHO (NA)
: I mean as the game keeps going. Early game sure you're right, that's why he hard counters Fighters and the like, but come Mid Game once everyone's hitting their power spikes, especially if they're from a different position and didn't have to deal with Jayce for the entire early game, they'll be gigantic threats to Jayce. Compared to every other Artillery champ, Jayce also has significantly less tools at long range. Ever notice how many long range champions counter him Mid Lane?
That's fair, he does have fewer artillery range tools than Xerath or Vel'Koz. What he reminds me of the most is the bad old days of bruiser NIdalee top. I'd like to see Riot do a similar thing with Jayce, where his long range abilities become primarily set up for his melee range burst.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=namechanger48,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9w6AgFtN,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-06T05:59:32.272+0000) > > I don't think "weak late" is a sufficient weakness. Then you're in the wrong genre of game. The concepts of gold and XP make no sense if the game doesn't actually use them to give characters varying power curves. > Also, his cannon stance auto has 500 range, more than Gnar, the same as Lucian, just 50 less than most ADCs. If he's practically melee, so is Lucian. Lucian supplements his poor range for an adc with insane mobility, and if he isn't snowballing and using that to play more like an assassin than a traditional adc then he's pretty much dead weight to his team. Jayce doesn't have that kind of in-combat mobility. Jayce can go into melee range while in hammer form, or he can get a movespeed boost from acceleration gate (which he also has to use for his artillery spell), no strafing around to stay the perfect distance from the enemy even while slinging autos at targets.
I'm not against characters having different power curves, it's just not enough to make them interesting to play against. Pantheon has a weak late. Does that make him interesting to play against? Champs should have strengths and weaknesses at all stages, even if the degree of strength/weakness changes. And if you're seriously arguing that Lucian counts as a melee, I don't know what to tell you. Lucian has more mobility, sure, but Jayce has 2 speed boosts, a gapcloser, a slow, and a knockback. Plenty of tools to keep opponents at the desired distance. If you think Cannon form Jayce is a melee champ, how about we give him 125 range instead of 500 and see how you feel about it then?
: I see two weaknesses. 1. He is basically a range AND a melee champion. The flexibility is nice, but he's not a master of both. A smart opponent will fight him when he's in the proper mode. I play melee top a lot, and while his range form will poke me into oblivion, but he'll have to go back to melee eventually. That's when I tend to murder him. 2. Similar to Elise and unlike most others, his ultimate is one he gets at level 1 do to how important it is to his mechanics, to the point that it's more of a passive then his actual passive. That said, he doesn't really have any real power spikes. Him getting to level 6 means little, while someone else getting to 6 means they have super strong killing move ready.
He never *has* to switch, unlike someone like Gnar. So the first one is more a question of your opponent making a mistake and going into melee form at the wrong time. As far as the second point, he definitely falls off late, but I don't think "weak late" is a sufficient weakness, because it just creates boring gameplay where you sit around for 15 minutes hoping to outscale him. Pantheon has the same issue. Every champ should have strengths and weaknesses that create interactive gameplay at all stages of the game, even if they're stronger in some phases than others.
TehNACHO (NA)
: He's still particularly squishy, especially in the case of a Top Laner. Say what you will about his self peel, he'll still explode if a Diver or Assassin really wanted to hit him hard enough. As a carry, he's also particularly prone to CC, especially since he doesn't stack Tenacity nor have built in tools to avoid or negate CC. [According to lolalytics, he's countered by tanks but counters fighters and skirmishers](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Jayce/). This is pretty obvious, when you consider the range advantage and self peel hard countering fighters, but as Tanks build Armor into his Lethality and can lock him down rather than have zero options if he knocks them back, Tanks can easily deal with Jayce's actually really limited self peel. His Mid Lane matchups are a lot weirder to explain, but in summary, he has plenty of weaknesses for his strengths. His strengths just make it look like he has no weaknesses in particular scenarios.
Against a Diver or Assassin, he won't go into melee form and give them a free gapcloser if he's good, he'll stay in Cannon and force them to blow their gap closer on him. Then he can just knock them away and use Gate to get a speed boost for more kiting. Compared to every other Artillery champ, Jayce has significantly more tools at close range. Either that needs to change, or he needs other weaknesses to compensate.
Quepha (NA)
: Jayce has very weak sustained damage in the late game. His Acceleration Gate has a pretty long cooldown for a regular ability and while it's down his Q has mediocre range and damage and the rest of his kit is barely more than melee range. His only option in the late game is to wait the full cooldown on his acceleration gate until a target is low enough and close enough for him to burst.
I don't think "weak late" is a sufficient weakness. It leads to boring gameplay where you just try to play passively for 15 minutes, hoping to outscale him. Same problem with someone like Pantheon. Every champ should have strengths and weaknesses at all stages of the game, even if they're stronger in some phases than others. Also, his cannon stance auto has 500 range, more than Gnar, the same as Lucian, just 50 less than most ADCs. If he's practically melee, so is Lucian.
Comentários de Rioters
: It takes a really high IQ to understand riots noob ad campaign.
> [{quoted}](name=IAintDarius,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=GnU8ZYjZ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-20T04:47:54.993+0000) > > It takes a really high IQ to understand riots noob ad campaign. It takes a really fragile ego to get offended by it.
Destaice (NA)
: Because insulting the people you want to try your games is idiotic and Riot should know better?
> [{quoted}](name=Destaice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=GnU8ZYjZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-20T04:36:21.038+0000) > > Because insulting the people you want to try your games is idiotic and Riot should know better? LOL! Dude, the point is that everyone is bad when they start out. People are nervous to try the game, but it's fine to be bad when you start, you're learning and having fun. And again, the ads aren't aimed at you, you're not new. It's so funny to me how personally people are taking this ad.
Comentários de Rioters
: actually stfu with your " noobs / hot garbage " ads
Dude, the point of the ads is not to call you trash. Those ads aren't even for you. They're for actual new players who are intimidated by the idea of playing League, getting into a game with someone more experienced like you, and having that person call them names because they're bad at the game. The point of the ad is to say, video games are fun, who cares how good you are? The fact that you didn't understand any of that, and thought that Riot was legitimately trying to insult you personally, is hilarious.
DeusVult (NA)
: I disagree: Nasus has a weaker early game, a great mid game, and an average late game. Once he gets some stacks, its true, you can't really 1v1 him, but the same can be said about a lot of split push champs who get ahead. You have to fight him 2v1, and cc or kite him while a mage or ADC dps's him down. Late game, his teamfight is lackluster as he has no hard cc, and dies pretty fast on the front line. Its when he perma-splits and the other team can take an objective 4v5 that he does well.
It used to be true that Nasus was a midgame champ. Then they changed his E to % armor shred from flat shred, and let him get double the use from his Q stacks while ulting, significantly shifting his power curve. Now he's actually useful in teamfights as a front line, peeling tanks and divers off his carries with Wither and his significant damage output, and buffing both his and his ADC's damage against the enemy frontline with E. If you look at his stats [here](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Nasus/), you'll see that he's actually got his best winrate in games that go +40 minutes.
: If being called an autist because you know someone who is gets to you then the internet might not be for you.
If you think calling someone autistic is a funny insult, mainstream human society might not be for you.
: Personal opinion here - {{item:3076}} is to {{item:3075}} as {{item:3155}} is to {{item:3156}} . The first is a somewhat narrow, but very powerful defensive lane item that helps you survive against a specific threat - and their upgrades are a relatively inefficient item, that at least provides you something to build your powerful component into. Agreed though; there's a question of if {{item:3076}} is _too_ strong early and {{item:3075}} is _too_ weak, or if having items with this kind of trade off is even a good thing.
I don't think the trade off is needed. Not every situational item falls off late; look at the Last Whisper items. There might be games where you don't want them, but in the games where they are good, you're happy to have the complete item in your build. In a game where it was a good idea to build Bramble, it should also be a good idea to finish a Thornmail at some point, and not just because there was nothing better to do with the slot. Thornmail is *insanely* gold inefficient, with stats worth less than 2300 and a cost of 2900. Thornmail is supposed to be situational, so maybe rather than giving it more universally valuable stats, you increase the passive damage. I dunno what, but it needs something.
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