boogers5 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Workshop Shaco,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-09T18:37:39.185+0000) > > I agree. The boxes are the least used part of Shaco's kit for the majority of people who play him, AD Shaco doesn't make the best use out of them. Nor should he. The boxes provide much utility that heavily prevent an opponent to escape if you plan your assassination correctly.
> [{quoted}](name=boogers5,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-04-11T00:44:42.021+0000) > > The boxes provide much utility that heavily prevent an opponent to escape if you plan your assassination correctly. In the ideal scenario, you can plant a box on your way to bursting them. It would be along the route they'd take to run away from you, which ensures a kill. It's not always practical to do this though, and the boxes are not reliable at all (especially around minions, being that they love running at the box for no reason right now). None of this makes it fundamental to your damage or burst potential as an AD assassin though. Outside of clearing in the early game, the usefulness kind of falls off for AD assassin Shaco compared to his other play styles.
Sęraph (NA)
: Shaco is fine as is. He just needs more skins.
> [{quoted}](name=Sęraph,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2019-04-10T14:53:19.477+0000) > > Shaco is fine as is. He just needs more skins. There's one coming soon, supposedly
TryBox (NA)
: Okay...first off, the miniboxes aren't useless...i've used them to get kills PLENTY of times. He's honestly fine as he is, aside from the bugs you've mentioned, i've seen those rarely. Changing E to a skill shot also hurts top shaco as well. Not sure how some of you are playing him, but i've done enough to have 1.8m mastery on him. Please, leave my champion alone.
> [{quoted}](name=TryBox,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-04-10T04:44:35.541+0000) > > Okay...first off, the miniboxes aren't useless...i've used them to get kills PLENTY of times. He's honestly fine as he is, aside from the bugs you've mentioned, i've seen those rarely. Changing E to a skill shot also hurts top shaco as well. Not sure how some of you are playing him, but i've done enough to have 1.8m mastery on him. Please, leave my champion alone. I've used them in a lot of situations as well. They're not entirely useless, but as someone who played AD Shaco jungle for years and is currently maining AP Shaco, I'd 100% rather have the slow and empowered damage. Same for the skillshot, I'd rather it be stronger than for me to be able to throw a toothpick at them from across the lane. I don't think it'd hurt lane Shaco at all, it'd probably be a significant buff to your fighting power at level 6 if anything. I cannot speak for everyone though and I respect your opinion, thanks for the input! Edit: By not entirely useless, I mean I've accidentally made the box fear work and it somewhat helped me on multiple occasions.
Sylas (OCE)
: I love the new e idea. My issue with shaco is he feels weak until you are full build with ie and the current e feels so useless for the majority of the game. While shaco can deal some serious damage i find its only when hes supper duper fed against a team that has no idea what to do or how to build against it. Adding a skill shot to e would be good as all i hear from some people is shaco is just point and click. Along with these changes i would love to see some visual updates as most the skins don't really provide any visual differences in his abilitys. I also love the poof thing when is ult snaps back to you idea as that would add a nice little touch of mind f##k to shaco. Just my thoughts
> [{quoted}](name=Sylas,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2019-04-10T03:00:32.566+0000) > > I love the new e idea. My issue with shaco is he feels weak until you are full build with ie and the current e feels so useless for the majority of the game. While shaco can deal some serious damage i find its only when hes supper duper fed against a team that has no idea what to do or how to build against it. Adding a skill shot to e would be good as all i hear from some people is shaco is just point and click. Along with these changes i would love to see some visual updates as most the skins don't really provide any visual differences in his abilitys. I also love the poof thing when is ult snaps back to you idea as that would add a nice little touch of mind f##k to shaco. Just my thoughts I'm glad you like it. I designed this to be compatible with a future VGU, which I am very much looking forward to.
: I much prefer the way his passive worked before, it encouraged you to have the boxes hit the jungle mobs from behind to boost your clear. It also made your shiv do more damage if enemy champs ran away from it. Also I think his Q needs to be a 1 point wonder again, having to slam 3 points into Q neuters the early game so much it's insane, Delaying ranking up your E until after your level 6 makes his ganks/early presence so much weaker than it needs to be. (Also his Q should be a crit and not bonus damage) The Execute from his E needs to be removed and his E should go back to it's pre-rework damage numbers (And Magic Damage) I would be fine with losing the Extra Box Duration through AP and the Box Explosion from Ult if it meant I got these changes back.
> [{quoted}](name=FreezerFlare,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-04-10T01:16:48.899+0000) > > I much prefer the way his passive worked before, it encouraged you to have the boxes hit the jungle mobs from behind to boost your clear. > It also made your shiv do more damage if enemy champs ran away from it. > > Also I think his Q needs to be a 1 point wonder again, having to slam 3 points into Q neuters the early game so much it's insane, Delaying ranking up your E until after your level 6 makes his ganks/early presence so much weaker than it needs to be. (Also his Q should be a crit and not bonus damage) > > The Execute from his E needs to be removed and his E should go back to it's pre-rework damage numbers (And Magic Damage) > > I would be fine with losing the Extra Box Duration through AP and the Box Explosion from Ult if it meant I got these changes back. I don't think a revert is a reasonable request at this stage. Even if he was reverted, there's too many changes to the jungle/items/other champs/ignite/objectives that it would never feel the same anyway. I was hoping for a good compromise. Q is a crit, passive is damage that scales purely with items still. E isn't an execute (nor is it useless), ult explosion should feel nicer for both AD and AP. Either way, it should bring back some of his old feeling and his old builds too.
Alsius (NA)
: > Additionally, since a lot of people complain about his Q, what if Shaco's laugh played if the smoke from Deceive is on your screen when he casts it? So, I'm not a Shaco player, nor do I get super tilted going against him. That said, if literally nothing else gets done, I want this cuz that's amazing
> [{quoted}](name=Alsius,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-04-10T01:14:15.799+0000) > > So, I'm not a Shaco player, nor do I get super tilted going against him. That said, if literally nothing else gets done, I want this cuz that's amazing It'd be a nerf and I still want it super badly, even if nothing else happens.
: Workshop Shaco's Shaco Workshop (Shaco changes discussion/proposal)
It's come to my attention that me linking this in the intro text wasn't obvious enough, please refer to this for a comparison of his current kit. I tried doing it in the actual post, but it looked really really long and sloppy. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Shaco
Kobune (EUW)
: There aren't enough tools to make it cleaner on LoL Boards, but don't worry, it looks good enough already.
> [{quoted}](name=Kobune,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-04-09T23:35:06.617+0000) > > Thanks for trying to make things change. . > [{quoted}](name=Kobune,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-04-09T23:37:04.534+0000) > > There aren't enough tools to make it cleaner on LoL Boards, but don't worry, it looks good enough already. I wish I could at least underline things and/or put clean bullet points. Also, we're all in this together, making this was fun too.
: I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, I think your proposed changes are exactly the kind of thing current Shaco needs to be healthier for both his players and his opponents. On the other hand, I don't believe they tackle the core issues of his gameplay pattern well enough to be healthy in the long run. If Shaco manages to get ahead early, there isn't much counterplay to his burst pattern. He simply appears behind you and you're either dead or burning summoners. Good vision control, map awareness, and keeping an eye out for puffs of smoke will certainly help with avoiding death, but let's be real here: if a fed Shaco wants someone dead, they're gonna die, simple as that. Vision options are at an all time low, and counters for stealth even more so. Furthermore, Shaco is a champion that relies almost entirely on items to burst people. His base numbers are crap, and 2 of his abilities (boxes and clone) don't really work for an assassin playstyle. Think about champions like Kha'zix, Rengar, or LeBlanc: they get in position, then dump their entire rotation on you within a fraction of a second. But Shaco's boxes and clone are DPS tools, and I feel like the only thing your proposed clone changes will accomplish (specifically the part about clone triggering Deceive's bonus damage) is making his burst pattern clunky and slow. I get that you want to preserve some form of AP Shaco playstyle for those who enjoy it, but It's reminiscent of the same problem old Sion had, in that if you built AP half your kit would be useless, and if you built AD, the other half would be useless. Trying to accommodate both styles will only serve to eat up more of his power budget, and that's the last thing Shaco needs. What I'm getting at with all this is that, to me, it seems like Shaco's niche would be better suited as a slippery skirmisher akin to Fiora or Yasuo, but with less mobility and a greater emphasis on deception/baiting. Hell, I'd even be ok with them reworking him into a top laner, because any changes to his boxes would invariably mess with his jungle clear. And to be perfectly honest, I don't know how you (referring more to Patriot here, but you agreed with his post, so....) can say Shaco shouldn't be tied to some kind of "trickster" narrative when that's basically ALL Shaco does. His entire MO, both thematically and in-game, is to confuse, disorient, and deceive his opponents with mind games. Personally, this is why I fell in love with Shaco. If I just wanted to play an AD assassin that 1-shots people, I'd have picked up Rengar. But Shaco's emphasis on subtle manipulation of the battlefield through psychological influence is what made me want to main him in the first place. Because of the simplicity of his kit, a greater burden of knowledge is placed on one's strategic aptitude and the ability to think in unfamiliar terms. And this doesn't just apply to playing _as_ Shaco either. Playing against Shaco requires you to plan your moves carefully so that you can foresee in advance where he will be and act accordingly. In essence, you must put yourself into the mind of the Shaco player. And this is why Shaco is such an interesting matchup. It's a battle of wills, a meeting of minds; one person's strategy and tactics vs. another's. Much different from the usual mechanical outplays that people are used to making. Shaco draws people out of their comfort zone and forces them to adapt to unique situations more so than any other champion in the game. Every time I play against Shaco I learn something new about the game, or I play the game in a way entirely different from the way I usually do. This is what Shaco should be, and his "trickster" narrative meshes perfectly with this playstyle. Differences in philosophy aside, I really enjoy the spirit of this post, and I agree that Shaco is in dire need of a rework. As far as bugfixes go, I'd love it if they cleaned up the code regarding his clone AI, which is still quite bad even after the last Pet-pass. Here's a list of miscellaneous bugs I've noticed with Shaco recently: - Canceling an autoattack while stealthed with Q will break his stealth - E cast will cancel mid animation/channel for no reason if the enemy leaves range or visibility even though it is already been casted (Note: this one is inconsistent with mana expenditure but sometimes it will burn mana and sometimes not when it bugs out) - R timing in "disappearing from the game" is inconsistent and doesn't follow the definition, as perfectly timed ults have had damage, crowd control, and other things more or less "follow through the removal", hitting Shaco anyway - Clone is buggy and is sometimes non-responsive and will sit there despite being given orders; explosion radius is also inconsistent as far as animation and distance per units, sometimes shorter than Shaco's own auto-attack range, sometimes longer than it should be It would also be nice if we could get a visible leash radius for Shaco's clone so we know exactly how far we can move it before it snaps back to us. Maybe even have the clone disappear in a puff of smoke similar to Shaco's Q as it leashes. I'd also like more consistency regarding Shaco's ability to "jump" over walls using his ult. Not even sure if this is an intended feature, but it would be sweet if it was made so.
> [{quoted}](name=L Psy Kongroo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-04-09T20:05:43.474+0000) > > I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, I think your proposed changes are exactly the kind of thing current Shaco needs to be healthier for both his players and his opponents. On the other hand, I don't believe they tackle the core issues of his gameplay pattern well enough to be healthy in the long run. If Shaco manages to get ahead early, there isn't much counterplay to his burst pattern. He simply appears behind you and you're either dead or burning summoners. Good vision control, map awareness, and keeping an eye out for puffs of smoke will certainly help with avoiding death, but let's be real here: if a fed Shaco wants someone dead, they're gonna die, simple as that. Vision options are at an all time low, and counters for stealth even more so. > > Furthermore, Shaco is a champion that relies almost entirely on items to burst people. His base numbers are crap, and 2 of his abilities (boxes and clone) don't really work for an assassin playstyle. Think about champions like Kha'zix, Rengar, or LeBlanc: they get in position, then dump their entire rotation on you within a fraction of a second. But Shaco's boxes and clone are DPS tools, and I feel like the only thing your proposed clone changes will accomplish (specifically the part about clone triggering Deceive's bonus damage) is making his burst pattern clunky and slow. I get that you want to preserve some form of AP Shaco playstyle for those who enjoy it, but It's reminiscent of the same problem old Sion had, in that if you built AP half your kit would be useless, and if you built AD, the other half would be useless. Trying to accommodate both styles will only serve to eat up more of his power budget, and that's the last thing Shaco needs. > > What I'm getting at with all this is that, to me, it seems like Shaco's niche would be better suited as a slippery skirmisher akin to Fiora or Yasuo, but with less mobility and a greater emphasis on deception/baiting. Hell, I'd even be ok with them reworking him into a top laner, because any changes to his boxes would invariably mess with his jungle clear. > > And to be perfectly honest, I don't know how you (referring more to Patriot here, but you agreed with his post, so....) can say Shaco shouldn't be tied to some kind of "trickster" narrative when that's basically ALL Shaco does. His entire MO, both thematically and in-game, is to confuse, disorient, and deceive his opponents with mind games. Personally, this is why I fell in love with Shaco. If I just wanted to play an AD assassin that 1-shots people, I'd have picked up Rengar. But Shaco's emphasis on subtle manipulation of the battlefield through psychological influence is what made me want to main him in the first place. Because of the simplicity of his kit, a greater burden of knowledge is placed on one's strategic aptitude and the ability to think in unfamiliar terms. > > And this doesn't just apply to playing _as_ Shaco either. Playing against Shaco requires you to plan your moves carefully so that you can foresee in advance where he will be and act accordingly. In essence, you must put yourself into the mind of the Shaco player. And this is why Shaco is such an interesting matchup. It's a battle of wills, a meeting of minds; one person's strategy and tactics vs. another's. Much different from the usual mechanical outplays that people are used to making. Shaco draws people out of their comfort zone and forces them to adapt to unique situations more so than any other champion in the game. Every time I play against Shaco I learn something new about the game, or I play the game in a way entirely different from the way I usually do. This is what Shaco should be, and his "trickster" narrative meshes perfectly with this playstyle. > > Differences in philosophy aside, I really enjoy the spirit of this post, and I agree that Shaco is in dire need of a rework. As far as bugfixes go, I'd love it if they cleaned up the code regarding his clone AI, which is still quite bad even after the last Pet-pass. Here's a list of miscellaneous bugs I've noticed with Shaco recently: > > - Canceling an autoattack while stealthed with Q will break his stealth > - E cast will cancel mid animation/channel for no reason if the enemy leaves range or visibility even though it is already been casted (Note: this one is inconsistent with mana expenditure but sometimes it will burn mana and sometimes not when it bugs out) > - R timing in "disappearing from the game" is inconsistent and doesn't follow the definition, as perfectly timed ults have had damage, crowd control, and other things more or less "follow through the removal", hitting Shaco anyway > - Clone is buggy and is sometimes non-responsive and will sit there despite being given orders; explosion radius is also inconsistent as far as animation and distance per units, sometimes shorter than Shaco's own auto-attack range, sometimes longer than it should be > > It would also be nice if we could get a visible leash radius for Shaco's clone so we know exactly how far we can move it before it snaps back to us. Maybe even have the clone disappear in a puff of smoke similar to Shaco's Q as it leashes. I'd also like more consistency regarding Shaco's ability to "jump" over walls using his ult. Not even sure if this is an intended feature, but it would be sweet if it was made so. You bring up a lot of good points, some of which I forgot to mention (but intended to). I'm going to add the last bit of what you wrote to the original post. Thank you for taking the time to comment. As for what else you said, I stand by my boxes statement. I think he should be a trickster, but I also think he should be an assassin. He can do both and be both, and he can do it without making boxes a priority. In my opinion, Shaco is defined by his ability to outplay, not only because of his kit but because of his adaptability in play style and build. The main form of counter play would be taking away his ability to outplay by using things like sweeper, good wards, like half the support items that exist, and a slight adjustment in build (all assassins cause a slight adjustment in build). However, you made me come up with a new idea. Quick reflexes and paying attention to his Q smoke alone can sometimes get you by. Perhaps an audio cue on his Deceive would help. For instance, if Shaco's smoke is visible on your screen then you would hear his laugh (perhaps a distorted version, because that'd be cooler and creepy). It would keep everything the same but make it easier to play against him without changing much. The fear factor of that would also be quite interesting.
Zac x Me (NA)
: Walksharp Shenko\*
> [{quoted}](name=Zac x Me,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-04-09T22:55:25.014+0000) > > Walksharp Shenko\* You remember <3
: I used to play a lot of Shaco top, and the E changes absolutely dumpstered his ability to solo lane (Similar to the Zac Q changes... who I also used to main top). I really like the direction of these changes for multiple reasons: * The shimmering on Q I think adds a nice touch of counterplay so you don't just see a box or clone appear and think "Whelp I'm gonna die". You can actually see the outline of Shaco and take some action. * Having E be a skill shot allows it to have more power, useful for laning and your proposed changes would help him jungle as well. It also makes it viable as a retreating move where you can Q away > E behind you without being in range in order to slow down pursuers (great for split push shaco). Also, keeping it single target means you can use muramana with it.. Not that I would ever do that... maybe... * Having the increased incentive for E to be used after going in, rather than spamming it from afar really helps mitigate edge cases of him just harassing endlessly, I might even suggest an additional AD ratio along with the bonus AP ratio (and maybe trimming the base bonus AD). You might also have the E bonus damage be tied to the target having been backstabbed, that way he doesn't get the bonus damage for free just because he went in. * Yes please... Fix the W bug! * I loveeee the slow on ult explosion. In the current iteration it feels completely useless because not only do the boxes take too long to activate, they die too quickly to incidental damage. And previously, the ult explosion just felt like a gimmick tacked on to his ult when everything had to have an AP ratio (Old Sion *Cough*) With the passive vs backstab damage, I think having the bonus AD/AP damage on the passive instead would be great and synergizes well with the E, especially if you tie the bonus damage on E to backstab, really ensures he has to backstab to do the good damages and gives him another level of counterplay. I might be forgetting something... but those are my initial thoughts.
> [{quoted}](name=Hiphoppopatomus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-09T19:37:51.764+0000) > > I used to play a lot of Shaco top, and the E changes absolutely dumpstered his ability to solo lane (Similar to the Zac Q changes... who I also used to main top). > I really like the direction of these changes for multiple reasons: > > * The shimmering on Q I think adds a nice touch of counterplay so you don't just see a box or clone appear and think "Whelp I'm gonna die". You can actually see the outline of Shaco and take some action. > * Having E be a skill shot allows it to have more power, useful for laning and your proposed changes would help him jungle as well. It also makes it viable as a retreating move where you can Q away > E behind you without being in range in order to slow down pursuers (great for split push shaco). Also, keeping it single target means you can use muramana with it.. Not that I would ever do that... maybe... > * Having the increased incentive for E to be used after going in, rather than spamming it from afar really helps mitigate edge cases of him just harassing endlessly, I might even suggest an additional AD ratio along with the bonus AP ratio (and maybe trimming the base bonus AD). You might also have the E bonus damage be tied to the target having been backstabbed, that way he doesn't get the bonus damage for free just because he went in. > * Yes please... Fix the W bug! > * I loveeee the slow on ult explosion. In the current iteration it feels completely useless because not only do the boxes take too long to activate, they die too quickly to incidental damage. And previously, the ult explosion just felt like a gimmick tacked on to his ult when everything had to have an AP ratio (Old Sion *Cough*) > > With the passive vs backstab damage, I think having the bonus AD/AP damage on the passive instead would be great and synergizes well with the E, especially if you tie the bonus damage on E to backstab, really ensures he has to backstab to do the good damages and gives him another level of counterplay. > > I might be forgetting something... but those are my initial thoughts. I'm glad you liked it. I might tweak things later on, I'm just gathering input right now. Thank you for giving such a long response
: > [{quoted}](name=Workshop Shaco,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-09T18:01:09.118+0000) > > If anyone can help me format this to not look as ugly, it'd be much appreciated. It doesn't seem to want me to space it out at all. You should have put the current kit to compare directly. Other than that its pretty clear.
> [{quoted}](name=II Paulus II,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-04-09T19:35:42.299+0000) > > You should have put the current kit to compare directly. Other than that its pretty clear. I linked his lolwiki somewhere in there for tidiness. I'll look into adding more to the main post later when I'm home, thanks for the input
: I just hope that when Shaco gets work its for AD assassin shaco and not something to do with boxes and the "trickster" narrative that comes up so often from people who dont play him.
> [{quoted}](name=p a t r i o t,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pp6NPfuV,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-09T18:36:19.107+0000) > > I just hope that when Shaco gets work its for AD assassin shaco and not something to do with boxes and the "trickster" narrative that comes up so often from people who dont play him. I agree. The boxes are the least used part of Shaco's kit for the majority of people who play him, AD Shaco doesn't make the best use out of them. Nor should he.
Kobune (EUW)
: When will Riot do something about Shaco ?
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/pp6NPfuV-workshop-shacos-shaco-workshop-shaco-changes-discussionproposal I just kinda went and made this because this thread inspired me.
: Workshop Shaco's Shaco Workshop (Shaco changes discussion/proposal)
If anyone can help me format this to not look as ugly, it'd be much appreciated. It doesn't seem to want me to space it out at all.
Comentários de Rioters
: I miss rushing Hydra. I miss my passive amplifying the damage of my Boxes for Clear and my E for assassinating. I miss Q being a 1 point wonder. I miss E doing damage and being magic damage instead of being a garbage execute made even weaker by having to rank Q 3 times first. I miss being able to build whatever I needed (Maw, Crit, Lethality, Bulky/Bruiser Shaco). I miss having an early game. I miss shaco before riot tried to push the "Hybrid" part of his kit only to make all versions of him worse.
> [{quoted}](name=FreezerFlare,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4BIbPZhu,comment-id=0024,timestamp=2019-04-09T14:00:32.622+0000) > > I miss rushing Hydra. > I miss my passive amplifying the damage of my Boxes for Clear and my E for assassinating. > I miss Q being a 1 point wonder. > I miss E doing damage and being magic damage instead of being a garbage execute made even weaker by having to rank Q 3 times first. > I miss being able to build whatever I needed (Maw, Crit, Lethality, Bulky/Bruiser Shaco). > I miss having an early game. > I miss shaco before riot tried to push the "Hybrid" part of his kit only to make all versions of him worse. Man, I specifically miss crit builds. His current passive makes building crit feel like garbage. You used to be able to go a full shiv/pd/ie route or just use shiv as an early powrspike or just buy the late game IE or just have no crit at all. His only viable assassin build now is lethality. It's just bad. An old friend of mine used to just go mobis/tiamat/BF sword stack and it was completely viable in diamond 1/low challenger back in the day. The rework killed all of that by trying too hard.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kobune,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4BIbPZhu,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2019-04-09T01:45:55.062+0000) > > Thank you, I've seen one of your post looking if there was anyone working for Riot Games playing Shaco, it made me so sad when I saw the comments but at the same time I as happy to see someone sharing the same opinion. Same thing happened when I posted it on League of Legends reddit I still managed to somehow get around 100 upvotes (it goes up and down). People were saying "No!! Shaco is cancerous!! (no counterplay) / No!! Shaco is good!! (look at his winrate / ChaseShaco is challenger with Shaco)". Meanwhile they didn't even play Shaco once in their life. > > I'm personally a Diamond Shaco One Trick, I managed to hit the top of the Diamond elo one time. I'm now playing a lot less, but I'm doing videos on YouTube playing Shaco (you can find me just by typing my name), it makes me a bit happy since people like my content, but making them is really hard because of Shaco being weak, my YouTube channel is my personal place making me feel better because it looks like everything is good about Shaco since I take the best games and make it good to watch with the editing, meanwhile, truly, I feel sad when I play him now. If you are a diamond Shaco player then surely you must recognize the problem Shaco has in terms lacking real counterplay&skill expression? Generally the more conditions a champion have to meet to archive their goal, the more difficulties they have to overcome to perform the greater the "powerbudget" they can have. This budget is then spent on various things like damage, mobility, utility, defensive tools and more. The more potent the ability the greater the cost towards the budget. And Shaco has almost no counterplay or skill expression, everything about him is just "walk up invisible and start hitting the target while avoiding retaliation with R". Secure ganks with W hard CC and E slow, enemies cant run because they wont be able to see you in time at all. There is no way to react to him, no skillshots to avoid and his only damage boost condition, the backstab, is made easy by his Q and he also has a ton of actually really good tools. Stealth, mobility blink, Hard CC, soft CC, his R acting as both a damage source and defensive tool. No real damage downtime unlike say a mage using all their abilities, no need to combo or even to do anything at all except walk behind his target while invisible and start rightclicking at them. No skill expression, no counterplay, too many powerful tools. His powerbudget finance ends up completely bankrupt, and to no real surprise he ends up poor to the point of destitution having only the barest scraps but nothing good really. This the real problem with Shaco, and why buffs wont actually solve anything......and why he needs a full on VGU. Because there is nothing else, nothing else at all that all that can hope to fix his problems.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4BIbPZhu,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2019-04-09T13:32:48.216+0000) > > If you are a diamond Shaco player then surely you must recognize the problem Shaco has in terms lacking real counterplay&skill expression? > > Generally the more conditions a champion have to meet to archive their goal, the more difficulties they have to overcome to perform the greater the "powerbudget" they can have. This budget is then spent on various things like damage, mobility, utility, defensive tools and more. > > The more potent the ability the greater the cost towards the budget. > > > And Shaco has almost no counterplay or skill expression, everything about him is just "walk up invisible and start hitting the target while avoiding retaliation with R". > > Secure ganks with W hard CC and E slow, enemies cant run because they wont be able to see you in time at all. > > There is no way to react to him, no skillshots to avoid and his only damage boost condition, the backstab, is made easy by his Q and he also has a ton of actually really good tools. > > Stealth, mobility blink, Hard CC, soft CC, his R acting as both a damage source and defensive tool. > > No real damage downtime unlike say a mage using all their abilities, no need to combo or even to do anything at all except walk behind his target while invisible and start rightclicking at them. > > > No skill expression, no counterplay, too many powerful tools. > > His powerbudget finance ends up completely bankrupt, and to no real surprise he ends up poor to the point of destitution having only the barest scraps but nothing good really. > > This the real problem with Shaco, and why buffs wont actually solve anything......and why he needs a full on VGU. > > Because there is nothing else, nothing else at all that all that can hope to fix his problems. I agree to an extent. I personally think he has a lot of counter play, but I am biased and I have much more champion knowledge regarding him than most of the playerbase. I have master tier friends that don't even know what his passive does. I think he needs another rework though. I would insist on keeping his Q stealth/blink, his boxes, his E, and his unique ultimate. However, his damage needs to be altered drastically. Not how he does damage, there's multiple champions that do the same exact thing he does (but in some cases more efficiently). But I would like the champion to go back to having his old power curve and higher skill floor. As for his strengths and weaknesses, you list a lot of strengths that don't make sense to me. His boxes are terrible and unreliable in a lot of gank situations. The minions are coded to run straight at them (even after they turn invisible) for no reason at all. It's frustrating. His slow is also negligible, any jungler with red buff or blue smite has the same strength. His early Q stealth is so bad (which is intentional) that you can't reliably gank as well as other junglers until level 5. Not to mention, the entire champion is countered by Ninja Tabis and a trinket item. He is an assassin that does no damage outside of basic attacks, his only powerful tool is getting close to you to use basic attacks. But not just any basic attacks, he needs to be behind the target and has a 3 second window to position perfectly (which I would also preserve in another Shaco rework). I sincerely cannot think of a situation where I'd rather have Shaco on my team as opposed to Rengar, he does everything Shaco does but better. Rengar is only gated by his ult cooldown late game (which is about 40 seconds long if you're building right, and it let's him run through the entire map and see a target through fog of war). That's besides the point though. He doesn't feel fun to play. He evidently doesn't feel fun to play against. I started playing this champion because he was considered a troll champ, but he completely destroyed me every time I played against him. Playing against him was always an adventure, you had no idea what he would do next. That was his strength, not how well he can synergize with Duskblade and Trinity. The beautiful part of Shaco was always him having such a simple kit that you could do so so much with.
: I haven't played Shaco in a while but his rework was a buff. Prior to his rework his Q had NO damage. It was literally just a blink. There was no point in complaining about his damage being on the lower side when it was literally adding damage to the champion in the first place. This made up for the E, which was changed to an execute and lost some damage. Also his boxes got a buff where they lasted longer the more AP you have, and while the explosion on R was nerfed for AD Shaco, it didn't happen during the rework. It happened AFTER, as well as many other things you're mentioning did. I know he does have some problems stemming from the rework, and extra health on boxes would be nice(I suggest it increase by 5% AP). As for your boxes getting destroyed randomly, you could use them like AP Shaco, plant them and wait, or lure them into them. If AD Shaco is having problems, it's because certain on-hit items that AD Shaco uses(Or you could say abuses since AD Shaco is basically a melee Ezreal) are not as good as they once were(duskblade for example). Let's also not forget the ability to place boxes while in stealth that came from that rework. The boxes also did get some kind of health change, 18 per level instead of 150 at all levels I think.
> [{quoted}](name=VoraciousX,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4BIbPZhu,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2019-04-09T08:07:13.065+0000) > > I haven't played Shaco in a while but his rework was a buff. Prior to his rework his Q had NO damage. It was literally just a blink. There was no point in complaining about his damage being on the lower side when it was literally adding damage to the champion in the first place. This made up for the E, which was changed to an execute and lost some damage. Also his boxes got a buff where they lasted longer the more AP you have, and while the explosion on R was nerfed for AD Shaco, it didn't happen during the rework. It happened AFTER, as well as many other things you're mentioning did. I know he does have some problems stemming from the rework, and extra health on boxes would be nice(I suggest it increase by 5% AP). As for your boxes getting destroyed randomly, you could use them like AP Shaco, plant them and wait, or lure them into them. If AD Shaco is having problems, it's because certain on-hit items that AD Shaco uses(Or you could say abuses since AD Shaco is basically a melee Ezreal) are not as good as they once were(duskblade for example). Let's also not forget the ability to place boxes while in stealth that came from that rework. The boxes also did get some kind of health change, 18 per level instead of 150 at all levels I think. His Q had no damage? With his passive and old IE you produced a crit that was for 370% damage if I remember correctly. You could quite literally crit someone for 3k+ damage every time very easily. His Q was so strong you skipped putting extra points in your R because it was really really bad back then. If you mean it had no base damage, you are correct. Shaco formerly had a kit that scaled purely through items. His late game was considered bad because old pink wards used to negate him entirely, forcing him to split. If not for that, he was the hardest scaling champion in the game. His lack of 'normal' damage in his kit also made his mid game terrible, where his early game numbers fell off but he didn't have his items just yet. Playing around his terrible mid game led to a lot of theory crafting and different builds, it was the fun part of him for me. There was no correct way to do things. There's ways to give him his old power curve back and keep him a healthy champion. I had success talking to Riot and getting small changes for Shaco in the past, this thread is tempting me to try again.
Kobune (EUW)
: When will Riot do something about Shaco ?
In my opinion, Shaco's rework completely changed the champion from what he was and still failed at balancing him. Ever since his rework I stopped playing him nearly as much, but this season I gave it another go. As it turns out, jungle Shaco went from being incredibly diverse to somewhat linear. He has the same clear almost every game, doesn't duel other champions very well early on, doesn't clear super nicely until tiamat, doesn't gank very well until 2-3 points in stealth. I straight up just started playing him as a support. I'd have a 75% winrate on him if I never played Shaco jungle in ranked this season. Additionally, check the champion's op.gg stats. 20% support play rate and it's seemingly his stronger role now. https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Workshop+shaco Edit(s): As far as I'm concerned, pre-rework Shaco had the most build diversity out of any champion. While he can still take a variety of keystones and go either AP or AD, there will always be the cookie-cutter dusk/trinity/ghostblade that makes you feel inferior. It's boring. His early game is boring. His late game is boring. You only do one thing, there's no more duelist Shaco or splitpush Shaco or Skirmisher Shaco. Right now, that cookie-cutter build isn't even that great too. It's expensive and it's been nerfed a fair bit. I'd rather just have (or be) Rengar. The only innovation I've seen is from my friend Revive, which I helped make a glacial augment tank build with. He's basically playing Shaco support in the jungle. I'd link his op.gg but I'm lazy and on mobile (same reason why I keep editing this same post). He needs to be looked at if Riot still wants AD Shaco jungle to be his intended position.
: My previous rank is not showing on my profile nor lobby just loading screen? Weird (NOT Border)
I currently have everything else but my current diamond border in loading screens. This wasn't like this until my most recent game. Bump!
: Invited my gf to a normal game, put us in a ranked solo duo game
Contacted Riot support and they basically just said sorry and that I can play more ranked to get back up. They can't remove the game off my history or restore my LP. /thread
: Invited my gf to a normal game, put us in a ranked solo duo game
https://i.gyazo.com/7051268e5b7e9402498581e445178947.jpg One additional screenshot that I just took. Tried to make a ranked lobby just to see if I could've accidentally somehow bypassed the ranked restriction, but it doesn't let us.
Comentários de Rioters
Comentários de Rioters
: Need an ADC for Clash
Just add me if you're interested.
Comentários de Rioters
: I am gold support invite me?
> [{quoted}](name=ŁØŸAŁ GÜÅRÐ,realm=NA,application-id=W0aEVjIo,discussion-id=WPIEy1Or,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-22T16:49:16.883+0000) > > I am gold support invite me? We have someone now, sorry.
Comentários de Rioters
Rockman (NA)
: I'd say Red-> Whatever camp you take best->Blue IIRC the exp changes make it so you need another camp for lvl 3 or 4 but one exp rune bypasses that
> [{quoted}](name=Rockman,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=gyRWhyRu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-13T21:26:38.124+0000) > > I'd say Red-> Whatever camp you take best->Blue > > IIRC the exp changes make it so you need another camp for lvl 3 or 4 but one exp rune bypasses that So basically, not much has changed?
Comentários de Rioters
: http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/583/958/5cc.png
> [{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=tlOsrmHq,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-12-07T01:04:33.582+0000) > > http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/583/958/5cc.png Participating is fun tho
: > [{quoted}](name=Janna F Kennedy,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=tlOsrmHq,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-12-07T00:55:03.999+0000) > > It's a Harvard one that covered many years and came out this past summer. It's not hard to find. You should look into it yourself since you seem to be living under a rock. So how about instead of being a precocious little putz you link the evidence?
> [{quoted}](name=Trolosaurus,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=tlOsrmHq,comment-id=0002000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-07T00:56:03.884+0000) > > So how about instead of being a precocious little putz you link the evidence? http://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications/empirical-analysis-racial-differences-police-use-force Literally just google it next time, it's less words than your comment.
: Is Black Lives Matter racist and do they incite violence/hatred?
Only thing I'm going to say is the paid protesters should kill themselves lmfao
: Shaco's rework killed AD Assassin Shaco
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-624-notes#patch-shaco All I can say is, good enough I guess.
: Shaco's rework killed AD Assassin Shaco
Riot has nothing planned for him in this upcoming patch... but at least on hit Shaco is getting buff indirectly...
: I really love building {{item:3074}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3117}} + situational item. Fits my style perfectly, and can still hilariously 2 shot squishies. I've tried the new AP Shaco and I just can't get behind it. I like this build better, and I'll make it work, damn it. ----- Unless Riot decides to un-f*ck Critco, which would be great.
> [{quoted}](name=Troy242621,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RvYrEXU6,comment-id=0055,timestamp=2016-11-21T02:17:10.393+0000) > > I really love building {{item:3074}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3117}} + situational item. Fits my style perfectly, and can still hilariously 2 shot squishies. I've tried the new AP Shaco and I just can't get behind it. I like this build better, and I'll make it work, damn it. > ----- > Unless Riot decides to un-f*ck Critco, which would be great. That's essentially my build, but I go swifties and invest in a red smite.
: Shaco's rework killed AD Assassin Shaco
One last bump and then I'll let it fall if it gets no more responses.
: Shaco's rework killed AD Assassin Shaco
: Hard to keep any talk about shaco alive when riot refuses to respond
> [{quoted}](name=Sherlock Clones,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RvYrEXU6,comment-id=0052,timestamp=2016-11-19T22:31:43.554+0000) > > Hard to keep any talk about shaco alive when riot refuses to respond Unfortunately so...
: Shaco's rework killed AD Assassin Shaco
: Shaco's rework killed AD Assassin Shaco
: okay will try bork, was mainly for attack speed. How do you feel about skill order? I'm hearing max q first? Is it worth going a 2nd point into w or E early on or before maxing a 2nd skill? What are your thoughts on forgoing ap, but having an ap quint or 2? about the TLD bug, does E still proc it since it no longer works with backstab? If you aren't using TLD anymore due to the bug, what's mastery setup do you use? Would courage work on shaco with the above build?
> [{quoted}](name=A Basic Island,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RvYrEXU6,comment-id=004e00000000,timestamp=2016-11-18T03:47:35.817+0000) > > okay will try bork, was mainly for attack speed. > > How do you feel about skill order? I'm hearing max q first? > > Is it worth going a 2nd point into w or E early on or before maxing a 2nd skill? > > What are your thoughts on forgoing ap, but having an ap quint or 2? > > about the TLD bug, does E still proc it since it no longer works with backstab? > > If you aren't using TLD anymore due to the bug, what's mastery setup do you use? > > Would courage work on shaco with the above build? I believe at level 5, most people have two points in Q, two points in E, and one point in W. Right now, I'm taking stormraider's over thunderlords because of the bug. Also, no, Courage is actually pretty bad on a majority of champs that people take them.
: is your friend list max? add me if you get a chance, id like to discuss with you some stuff about shaco :D
> [{quoted}](name=Kiriyago,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RvYrEXU6,comment-id=002a0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-18T00:37:07.768+0000) > > is your friend list max? add me if you get a chance, id like to discuss with you some stuff about shaco :D I'll make room, you can add me
: I know, i really miss being able to build as an assassin should
> [{quoted}](name=Kiriyago,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RvYrEXU6,comment-id=002a00000000,timestamp=2016-11-17T23:26:41.522+0000) > > I know, i really miss being able to build as an assassin should Riot pls help us
: This is a build i tried the other night and did really well, was actually surprised at how effective i was Cinderhulk, frozen mallet, titanic hydra, mobility boots, statik shiv, black cleaver Do you think shiv is still a good item on him if not wanting to play ap? I really don't care that it's "better" it just doesn't feel right buying that shit. Maybe a gunblade but that's about all i'd buy tbh ;/
> [{quoted}](name=A Basic Island,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RvYrEXU6,comment-id=004e,timestamp=2016-11-17T13:06:24.475+0000) > > This is a build i tried the other night and did really well, was actually surprised at how effective i was > > Cinderhulk, frozen mallet, titanic hydra, mobility boots, statik shiv, black cleaver > > > Do you think shiv is still a good item on him if not wanting to play ap? I really don't care that it's "better" it just doesn't feel right buying that shit. Maybe a gunblade but that's about all i'd buy tbh ;/ If you're going to do a build like that, you might want bork instead of shiv. You're not playing it for burst, you're trying to shred people over time while being tanky and annoying. If you really do just want Crit, PD would still be better than shiv because it gives better stats and a nice passive for dueling and focusing down one person in an extended trade. That build is pretty solid overall though. Edit: You can try Sterak's Gage instead of mallet because it's way cheaper and offers you a bit more, imo.
: As a Diamond Shaco main, I adapted smoothly to the changes and find myself enjoying this Shaco almost as much as pre-rework Shaco. Nevertheless, the mini-crit is absurd for the reasons you mention , and make him less versatile than before. So far, depending on the game and team comp I can do several builds for more or less any situation and tank from level 4 : AP assassin with IE AD CDR full lethality hit and run with trinity Hybrid for the most burst Bruiser with on hit effect Tancko still work Which left us with pure assassin shaco as the only build not working anymore, for this only reason, which is so sad... Still I do agree that when I look at the other assassins, I always wonder why I have to put this much effort into doing okay with shaco, when it's so easy to hard carry with them... Shaco's Winrate is only good because of how many OTP he has.
> [{quoted}](name=The Lovely Fool,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RvYrEXU6,comment-id=004d,timestamp=2016-11-17T13:00:43.042+0000) > > As a Diamond Shaco main, I adapted smoothly to the changes and find myself enjoying this Shaco almost as much as pre-rework Shaco. Nevertheless, the mini-crit is absurd for the reasons you mention , and make him less versatile than before. So far, depending on the game and team comp I can do several builds for more or less any situation and tank from level 4 : > AP assassin with IE > AD CDR full lethality hit and run with trinity > Hybrid for the most burst > Bruiser with on hit effect > Tancko still work > > Which left us with pure assassin shaco as the only build not working anymore, for this only reason, which is so sad... > > Still I do agree that when I look at the other assassins, I always wonder why I have to put this much effort into doing okay with shaco, when it's so easy to hard carry with them... Shaco's Winrate is only good because of how many OTP he has. Couldn't agree more.
: Shaco's rework killed AD Assassin Shaco
What if they made the damage scale with some obscure stat instead? Like you get +1% crit dmg for every time you've checked this thread and it didn't have a red response.
: But Talon has no boobs. Is this about the shiny blades? It must be it. Or that badass hood. Damn, I wish i mained a good looking champion!
> [{quoted}](name=TequilaZombie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RvYrEXU6,comment-id=000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-16T23:31:07.322+0000) > > But Talon has no boobs. Is this about the shiny blades? It must be it. Or that badass hood. > > Damn, I wish i mained a good looking champion! It's his spiffy vaulting animation.
: Shaco's rework killed AD Assassin Shaco
Keep it alive until we see changes on PBE :')
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