: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 13
No change to cloud soul is disappointing. It may not be "too strong" in terms of win rates, but 4x cloud soul on someone like Karthus makes for an awful play experience for the other team, and there are some champions that don't benefit from it at all because they don't have ultimates. I'd like to see it completely re-designed to be useful for everyone and not create bad gameplay; maybe go back to 1.5-2.5% movement speed like the old cloud drake or something. Still powerful without being OP, and without the problem of multiple of them on certain champions being a problem while being totally useless for others.
xALESIAx (EUW)
: Why has Yasuo not been nerfed yet?
Because his win rate is pretty low. He's just really poorly designed because of how he scales with crit. It makes him too feast/famine, especially combined with the high mobility in his kit.
: Who's Supposed to Run Omnistone anyway?
Maybe characters that can make use of any keystone, like kennen. If you can reliably trigger the keystones, the short cd is probably decent.
: How often does this happen in games? It is super OP when it does but has it been a continues thing or something that only happens once every 10+ games? Also I think dragons are meant to speed up games because the snowball is harder to come back from if you give up too much. And no matter what dragon it falls on if you give up control of dragon pit too much than it's the equivalent to how Baron was/is. If you get it it'll be that much easier to just out right win with a good push. I personally think League has wayyyyyy too much ambient damage. So many dots, environmental, passive, minion, and so on. Yes, everything can be worked around in the game, but i still think there is too much.
Sure, yeah 4 of the same dragon on one team doesn't happen every game, but it's fairly common right now to get 3 of the same, considering every dragon from the 3rd on is the same... There are only 2 chances of picking up a different dragon. Cloud is just the most blatant example of being absurd, but the problem applies to all of them. Multiple of the same dragon is pretty much always way more powerful than having multiple different dragons. Definitely agree on there being too much ambient damage though.
: TFT New patch
I've been winning with light/ranger and predator -> ranger/poison/crystal comps (and I think this one might be the strongest, since it works with pretty much any items; you don't NEED any specific items for it like you do with most other comps, and every unit is a potential target for stacking. Mana items? stack Kog/Rek-Sai. Damage/attack speed items? Stack Noct/twitch/ashe. Tank items? Stack Skarner (thornmail/spark/warmogs skarner is good) Summoner/mage comps can be really fragile if you have the right set up against them or they don't get the right items. Berserkers are still good, but I do think 6 berserkers is probably questionable unless you spat or hit 3*. 3 zerkers with glacial/poison + 2 rangers seems like it'd be best, since it gives you more carries and more synergies; stacked twitch/ez/singed and stacked Olaf is still good. Core of Olaf/Mundo/Volibear/Twitch/Ezreal/Singed; then you can add in 4th glacial and mystic/cloud. Blade/glacial spats are both good in the comp. You can drop Ez/4th glacial and only run 2 glacial and go 4 blades if you get a blade spat for Olaf. There are always going to be "best" comps. There's no getting around that, but right now, there are at least 4 or 5 comps that take 1st with the right items.
: I thought 8 % true dmg on conqueror Whats pushing tanks away.Why arent tanks good after its gone ?
Well, conquerer added to the problem, especially in top lane, but the real reason tanks aren't much of a thing is because they don't scale well into the late game with items, can't snowball as hard as bruisers/assassins to carry the game, and If you fall behind on a tank, you have no way of getting back into the game, because you cannot do anything on your own without a lead. Added to how insanely high damage is atm making the lead that tanks need to have a significant impact even greater, and the issue is just compounded. Bruisers/carries/assassins/split pushers can snowball a lead more effectively and have more presence in the game from behind, especially in solo queue, where you can't rely on your team to follow you up as a tank. Also sanguine blade exists, which pretty much automatically makes playing a tank top lane a non-option, because any lane opponent that can use it will just build it first item, and in a 1v1 situation, it's by far the strongest item in the game. Really, the only roles you should play a tank in for solo queue are support and jungle. In competitive, they can play tank top lanes because they can play for the late game. (Ornn/Sion/Mundo are sort of exceptions because their base damages are so high and they get oppressive in lane off of small leads because of that).
: > consider his win rate is around 55 % I think he's the best actual tank we have but yeah, I only said he should be even better now. As for Malph xD We're all aware of his AP shenanigans by now, I only said you can actually play him tank now without trolling as much.
That's because mundo has no CC except for cleaver slow. He's basically a bruiser that doesn't build the "bruiser" items because his scaling from them is nonexistent and his base damages are high, so he doesn't need much damage from items, if any.
Comentários de Rioters
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Ocean drake is literally a mundo ult
All the dragons are ridiculous atm. Ocean/cloud souls in particular are too strong. Cloud drake not even working for some champions, because they don't have ults, is also a problem...
Rewt (NA)
: Elder Dragon Execute proccing off DOT's (and itsself) Is like....... Why.
Actually, it only procs off itself, but it procs off of any damage to players, so...
Zeyphel (NA)
: Don't worry, Akali mains will tell you how she is the weakest champion currently...
Statistically, she is, just not in pro play. It's shitty design tbh. When a champion is borderline unplayable for most of the ladder, but super strong in pro play, there's an issue.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: gunblade was garbage, but akali alone made the item ridiculous V1.0.0.127 (season 2 btw) Attack damage reduced to 40 from 60. Ability power reduced to 70 from 75. Life steal reduced to 15% from 20%. Spell vamp reduced to 20% from 25%. NEW EFFECT: Spell vamp is now Unique. V1.0.0.152 (season 2) Item cost reduced to Gold 3400 from Gold 3625. Combine cost reduced to Gold 275 from Gold 600. Attack damage increased to 45 from 40. Ability power reduced to 65 from 70. Life steal reduced to 10% from 15%. REMOVED: Spell vamp is no longer Unique. Active base magic damage changed to 150 from 300. NEW EFFECT: Active now scales with 40% AP. Active slow reduced to 40% from 50%. Slow duration reduced to 2 seconds from 3. NEW UNIQUE PASSIVE: Your basic attacks and single target spells against champions reduce the cooldown of this item by 3 seconds. V1.0.0.154 (preseason 3) NEW EFFECT: Spell vamp is now Unique. all of those happened just because of akali around the same time they nerfed her V1.0.0.129 Twin Disciplines Initial spell vamp gained upon obtaining 10 bonus attack damage reduced to 8% from 10%. Additional spell vamp reduced to 1% per 6 attack damage from 1% per 5 attack damage. Initial magic damage bonus upon obtaining 20 ability power reduced to 8% from 10%. Additional magic damage bonus reduced to 1% per 6 ability power from 1% per 5 ability power. Mark of the Assassin Projectile base damage and proc based damage reduced to 45 / 70 / 95 / 120 / 145 from 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150.
The gunblade changes weren't just because of akali though. There were other champions that it was problematic on, and at the time they made spell vamp unique, it was because mages were building both gunblade and the other spell vamp item so they'd have 50% spell vamp, so they'd go up to full HP every rotation.
Pika Fox (NA)
: The difference is her new kit is far more balanced. Old akali got less tweaks because they just gutted her intentionally. New akali doesnt have a kit that requires intentional gutting.
Actually, her new kit is way more problematic than her old one. Old Akali was always hovering reasonably close to a 50% win rate, and saw little-no pro use in most metas. New Akali sees a lot of pro play, but has the lowest win rate of any mid-lane on ladder, and is 2nd from the lowest for top lane in plat+ on ladder, but she still sees regular use in pro play. This is way more indicative of a problematic design than the statistics for her old kit.
: I mean, it actually would help him more than Frozen or Abyssal will. You are right to question it. The extra AP from the item itself and its passive would up his mana, adding more AP to Seraph's passive.
Yes, but it sacrifices survivability. You just need enough damage to delete squishy characters and burn down tanks, and you don't need deathcap for that. Having frozen/abyssal means you are taking less damage, so you can live a little bit longer/more easily. Granted, I think abyssal mask is probably unnecessary. It's probably better to go with banshees and let a melee/tank character build abyssal.
Sirsir (NA)
: All the defensive runes require defensive item investment to be useful, except Bone Plating and Second Wind, which were only useful in lane. You USED to be able to run both but nope, too much survivability in lane. The only one that applies decent flat defenses, Aftershock, is constantly getting bitched about when it shows up on a non-tank like Lissandra. Everything else is % defensive stat boost, and offense that scales with defenses. Defensive items don't exactly suck, but tankbusting items are too damn good. AD champs spend 1500g and neuter 1/5 of your stats. Meanwhile they can't buff it because every idiot with fingers will start typing about 'oh no tank meta it's the worst thing everrrrrrrrrrr'
The problem with the "tank meta" development is that all items are way too strong. Stronger defensive items means shorter games, because people that get ahead can go for defensive items to make maintaining their lead easier; there's less multiplicative scaling for them than you get on offensive items, and penetration and lifesteal exist - unless a character has insanely high base damages, they just can't actually kill anyone while building full tank when you get later into the game. Less multiplicative scaling (IE: hp and armor/MR vs AD x crit x AS x pen x lifesteal or AP x 1.4 x pen x cdr - 4 3 stat multipliers that translate directly to damage instead of 1, and 1 that converts damage to healing; maybe 2 defensive scalars if attack speed matters) and weaker items in general reduces the insane damage multipliers that players get to damage, and reduces the gap between building no defense and all defense and all defense/no damage - which is currently way too extreme in the late game. Defense -> offense scaling can help, but it's usually either oppressive or not high good enough, as it makes for some really potent snowballing potential on the characters that have it when it's strong enough to make the characters stay relevant in the late game. Even in the worst "tank" metas, game times tended to be much shorter, and if the game went long enough, carries/mages would still dominate the game. Pretty much all of those "tank" metas have been more about bruisers than tanks anyway, and stem from some item that gives a mix of both offensive and defensive stats; it's the characters that have a focus on dealing damage while being tanky. The Atmogs "tank" meta is the most notable case - that was just every melee AD character building warmogs and Atma's to scale their damage off of HP in the mid game, so they could maintain any early lead they got more easily. Doing something like cutting the values on every item in half, reducing base ability damage scaling per rank, but adding some per level scaling, and removing penetration, rabadons, and crit or attack speed, and adding a bit more defensive scaling for tanks, would actually go a long way towards curbing the more core issue of offensive item scaling just being too high compared to defensive scaling, so dps doesn't effectively get to 10x base values or more in the late game (which also makes some 20% lifesteal as good as 3 defensive items...), while defense is only at ~4x power at the most (400 armor and 4k hp is ~3.7x effective hp vs a target with no armor pen), and has to be specialized against one type of target. Often they just buff the base damage on tank/bruiser abilities to ridiculous levels with some % hp damage to compensate for that much weaker scaling - which makes for a much stronger mid game than damage oriented characters can get unless compensates damage characters in some way... like through the current rune system and making offensive items cheaper and/or stronger. Also making defensive stats count towards damage to objectives, since an all damage team, even if it can't fight an all defense team, should win every game just because characters with only defensive items take forever to take objective; without that, tanks sort of need to essentially be outright stronger in fights against whatever type of damage they're building against unless they provide a ton of CC.
Hotarµ (NA)
: Except there **have** been multiple windows where he was balanced and similar to other champions in terms of performance. It's just factually incorrect to say he was a "mess since release."
> [{quoted}](name=Hotarµ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=u01rpEod,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-11-03T00:21:16.599+0000) > > Except there **have** been multiple windows where he was balanced and similar to other champions in terms of performance. It's just factually incorrect to say he was a "mess since release." "balanced" The problem is that he wasn't. His win rate had too much fluctuation with the level of play, and he was pick/ban in high level solo queue. Akali had the same issue, being oppressive at the pro level, strong in high elo, and trash at low elo; they nerfed her into the lowest win rate mid/top in the game, because her current kit design is awful for how the game actually plays. > [{quoted}](name=Ryusaether,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=u01rpEod,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-11-03T10:24:10.184+0000) > > They ruined Pyke because people complain when a champ (specificalli supports) get to be played in other lanes and they don't know how to counter them. He was intended to be a support. Riot nerfed him to enforce that, much like they'll end up doing with Senna, because her kit will not pair particularly well in lane with another ADC.
: Dr. Mundo, hands down. Some people in here say that his gameplay is fine, since he has a niche and all. But looking at his kit, he needs work. Let the following sink in: almost his entire kit just consists of stat steroids! W is a glorified sunfire cape with tenacity steroid. E is auto reset with **double stat steroid** (MR and AD). R is basically just hugely buffed health regen. And his passive is literally just "I have more health regen than other guys". It is uninspired, it is boring and it needs work. And VGUs aren't just about the gameplay. Also about lore and visuals. How someone can look at Dr. Mundo, a champion which looks more like a character of a playstation one adaption of some weird cartoon than a champion from League of Legends, and honestly think that he is fine is beyond me.
> [{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5Zf6slUr,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-11-01T08:07:43.042+0000) > > Dr. Mundo, hands down. Some people in here say that his gameplay is fine, since he has a niche and all. But looking at his kit, he needs work. Let the following sink in: almost his entire kit just consists of stat steroids! > > W is a glorified sunfire cape with tenacity steroid. > E is auto reset with **double stat steroid** (MR and AD). > R is basically just hugely buffed health regen. > And his passive is literally just "I have more health regen than other guys". > > It is uninspired, it is boring and it needs work. And VGUs aren't just about the gameplay. Also about lore and visuals. How someone can look at Dr. Mundo, a champion which looks more like a character of a playstation one adaption of some weird cartoon than a champion from League of Legends, and honestly think that he is fine is beyond me. That's exactly what's good about mundos kit... It's not super overloaded with 4 paragraphs of text for every ability or his passive or screwing with item scaling in a major way (which is always problematic. Jhin and Yasuo, old Jax, etc...). Simple does not equal bad or poorly designed.
: Senna isn't an ADC at all. She's a Support/Marksman. Marksman does not equate ADC.
"Support". She fills the spot of the ADC on the team better than she does the spot of the support, since her kit pairs better with tanks/engage supports than with other ADCs and she has the poke/AA damage of an ADC. She scales hard with AD and armor pen, and doesn't need to build crit or attack speed, because she gets crit from her passive and scales relatively poorly with attack speed. She may not have the raw AA DPS of other ADCs with her poor attack speed and crit scaling, but because of what items you're building, she does more damage to tanks that are building armor than most ADCs and can still kill other ADCs in a single combo or 2-3 autos. She builds AD, and she's a carry, regardless of whether or not she was intended to be one. I'd say she fits the term ADC pretty well.
iiGazeii (NA)
: The downsides of Senna
Uh, sure, but she scales super hard because of her passive, has CC and a movement speed steroid in her kit. Has insane range on her AAs (If you don't have 80 stacks by 20min game time, you're probably not playing her all that well, and 80 stacks means you have 60% crit and 700 range). Her crit scaling is relatively poor, and her AS scaling isn't great, but her overall scaling is quite good because she's able to stack armor pen without losing out on the multiplicative scaling altogether like other ADCs, and scales harder with raw AD because of her passive 20% bonus damage per attack and multiple reasonably strong AD ratios. Her auto attack speed scales with attack speed just like every other ADC, if not as well, and because she has such a slow attack rate to begin with, moving between each shot isn't as punishing. Take a shot -> Move -> take another shot, and her E works with duskblade, since you can pop in and out of the camouflage by attacking. Kog'maw has 710 range with max ranked W active; she gets more AA range than his max if she gets to 100 stacks, while also having multiple movement speed steroids, a heal, and a root. Once she gets to 775 range - 140 stacks, which isn't unreasonable to get in longer games, she out-ranges towers. Yeah, she gets wrecked if a malphite or someone flash ults onto her, just like any other ADC, but she can kill pretty much anyone squishy in an Auto+W+Q combo with a high AD/lethality build. If you think Kog maw will kill her before she can kill him, you're mistaken. Her ult also does around 1k damage late game, and hits a large area, and she can't even be targeted until she attacks with her E active unless someones within ~400 range of her. So she's pretty much guaranteed to hit him first. Have you even played her yet? She's pretty mobile for an ADC, does great damage safely, and scales hard. She may not have quite as much DPS, but she makes up for it with strong burst and range, a cheaper build, and a stronger mid-game than most ADCs. She's not much of a support though. She pairs way better with engage tanks/supports like Leona, thresh, alistar, Taric, etc... because she can combo her W on their CC, make their aproach safer/easier with her E, and both heal them and damage the lane opponents with her Q during trades.
SirEnds (NA)
: Senna seems really cool!
She's currently busted, and will probably just replace the ADC in the comp, because she pairs a lot better with characters that have a lot of CC and can peel for her than with another ranged character. putting her with alistar/thresh/leona would probably be way better than pairing her with someone like Lucian (who probably doesn't pair well at all with her tbh). She might pair well with soraka for some sort of sustain lane that can't get poked out, but a CC oriented character is probably better. Melee characters are going to be the easiest to make use of her heal with, and hard engage characters benefit the most from her E making them faster and untargetable at range; she'll be really good at setting up lane ganks with the jungler if the bushes aren't warded. Getting 80 stacks on her passive is pretty easy (it can be done pre-20 min, though it'll probably be closer to 25-30 min to get that 80 stacks in most games), and that puts her at 60% crit and 700 range without any items. She scales hard with raw AD because of her passive and fairly high AD ratios, and doesn't need much, if any, lifesteal because of her Q heal AD ratio. She can solo baron with ~12% lifesteal, a bunch of lethality/armor pen items (which she also scales well with because she already has crit), and swiftness boots. Her E's interaction with duskblade is also pretty crazy, since she can drop in and out of camouflage during the duration to proc it on every attack. I can't see her actually being played as support, since her kit works so much better paired with champions with hard CC, and she suffers from some of the same problems as most regular ADCs in fairly low mobility, limited CC, and being squishy. Her ult is basically a global lux ult that also shields allies near the beam, but it does have a pretty long CD. I'd be very surprised if she doesn't get nerfed quite a bit before the actual patch.
: the problem currently with urf is the elder dragon. its anti fun, heres why each dragon gives a 20% damage swing, plus true damage, plus all the other stats. its basicly a free auto win to the team that gets its kinda wasting the champ picking/ban they added back. as you need to pick strong laners so you have a chance to fight for that urf dragon. when it comes up. as is the dragon is making the mode a 10 min lane phase then a stomp/or ff once a team gets a dragon forcing the game to end fast.this is anti fun. i yet to have a urf game get to 30 min since they added dragon and thats even with ppl not ending the game for 5 min while they stand on top of losing teams nexus waiting for them to respwan so they can kill them in fountain. (games used to range from short to +40 min on old ver of urf.) the fountain camping shows two things. people want the game to be longer. since ppl mlik the game for like 5 min like this in almost all the games. the dragon is making the winning team so strong so fast that they can drive the losing team(team that did not get dragons) in fountain and still prob kill them at like 10-20 min mark. and still easly win most time even if the winning team ints a bunch in fountain for a few more kills . and the worst thing is these stats the dragon gives are semi hidden stats(listed in tooltip) so there are somehow people still out there that dont know how much power that damn dragon is giving which mean some people on your team might not even try to contest the dragon, cause they dont know its almost an auto win. games being auto won/lost by one sole objective at 10 min sucks a lot of the fun out of the mode. in the pbe people tried to tell riot about how the urf dragon was anti fun.riot dident care. edit: im not sure why the down votes most of the stuff here is just an observation i have made...i mean go look at your own game history/replays/stats and see for your self about that dragon...better yet if you have games on an older version of urf from before elder on your game history compare them..
Honestly, I don't think dragon even matters that much. ADCs just scale ridiculously hard in the mode, and with how fast gold income is, it's pretty much impossible for anyone to do anything to them once they get a few items. Trist, with 2 IE, GA, maw, Runaan's, and BT will kill pretty much anyone in 3-4 autos and have permanent attack speed cap. Because everyone dies pretty much instantly, they don't get much opportunity to use abilities, and building tank stats is pretty worthless for a mode that's buffing damage by so much. As someone else in the thread pointed out though: URF has never been a particularly fun game mode, and has always been broken. Ryze casting abilities as fast as the player could press buttons got him banned from the game mode a few years ago. CC heavy champs stunlocking a target to death, there being no good response to ADCs because they kill you faster than you can press buttons, etc... Only the longest range mages and characters with invincibility are able to compete with that. Some assassins are decent, like Zed permanently having a shadow out for free lane dominance, but... Lane dominance just doesn't matter that much when anyone can farm the jungle and sit under tower.
: Laning faze poke means nothing when the champ does no damage with the lead he gets. All these champs just out split push him in every way, its meaningless winning lane if you can't end the game by the 25th min. Then every champ here is just going to abuse your low damage crappy engage while they out sustain you with their low cd's and higher dps. Lane faze means nothing when if you're still able to cs at a decent level.
If you can poke the other person down, you can deny CS and get a lead. Panth with a lead in the early-mid game will win in the all in, and can put on more pressure. Panth's engage isn't low damage; it's just not a 1 shot like many assassins.
: Well noble is too good at early (when buffing the right unit) and late game, so it has to have a weak end.
So nerf the numbers on it? Which they're already doing anyway? I think Noble should be: 2: random noble gets buff -> 4: all nobles get buff -> 6: All allies get buff, but reduce the buff to 40-50 armor and 20-25 heal on hit, instead of 70 armor and 35 healing on hit. That tones it down in the early and late game, but makes it stronger in the mid-game and more reasonable to aim for without hitting an early kayle.
: Jax is excellent in lane if you understand what you're doing, tryn doesn't have any problems laning what so ever since you max out q and heal up when needed, cam as been like one of the best top laners for time has excellent damage, engage and disengage. Problem with panth he has no escape once he engages and any one with brain can just wait out his E which has 22cd. Did you people ever play old pantheon?
I didn't say Jax was bad in lane, just that he isn't as strong in lane as new panth - who has an extremely strong laning phase (go check win rates for early game if you think otherwise). New panth doesn't have to commit every time he wants to do damage, just use Q jabs to poke, then E if jax tries to go aggressive to deny the burst. You can say he can just wait out the E, but that buys time for another Q from panth, since it's a short CD, and at that point, panth is winning the trade in the early game. Yes, I played old panth and understand that. Panth's problem is a lack of escape, so he has to commit for kills. He doesn't have to commit for poke, and he has a slow now with his empowered Q, or can just use his W stun to disengage like he's always been able to do. Trynd gets absolutely wrecked by anyone that can take short trades against him (basically the same weakness as Jax in lane) and has a lot of burst, like Renekton or Udyr, since he can't trade against them at all. They stun, do 60% of his HP, then get out, while he has to commit and fish for crits. New panth can do that -> Q jab to poke, W or E and back off if trynd goes in, and panth has fantastic burst. Panth has a much more flexible/overall powerful laning phase than the champs you mentioned, despite his lack of escape. He just doesn't scale as well. Panth's E doesn't do good damage. If people are using it aggressively and trying to all in constantly, they're playing the champion wrong.
: 10nsecond ability. Also the idea that katarina dies not have an autoattack reset is so stunningly dumb to say to a katarina main it's actually funny. Her shunpo in melee range is an autoattack reset
Half the cd is refunded if you don't charge the Q, so it's effectively a 5 second cd at rank 1. It also only does reduced damage to secondary targets if you charge it, and hits almost instantly if you don't, so it's better for waveclear/poke if you don't charge it.
: I compare him to Riven, Jax, Trynd, Camille, and Renekton, all of whom outscale his ass every phase of the game. And my evidence is his winrate.
Eh, Jax, trynd, and camille are nowhere near as strong in lane as new panth. Renek might be, but he falls off just as hard late game. Riven is going to out-scale him hard, and can probably at least match him in lane, but riven's kind of busted in solo queue, and the only reason her laning might be on par is because her mobility is ridiculous and her wave clear is good. Panth shouldn't be losing the early game to a Riven though.
: One:You described a 6 second long combo as if its instant somehow. Most adcs alone can escape after the W portion if they have any mobility which means about less tha a thousand damage if we take in armor. Also I teamfights you even managing ti get the 3 autos on an ADC sucks Two: How is he going to get onto a squishy? With what mobility. Oh yeah Three: Literally Your rune choices are asbolut garbage. Press the attack and Conqueror are the go to keystones As for items: Anything but a page start means he cannot stick to his opponent. His Q and E slow him down. He needs a phage ASAP. Also by your highly theoretical theory. Ad bruiser katarina is defacto better. She has 450%bAD scaling on her ultimate alone. He has 3 potential autoattack resets, insane mobility and Four:The items you described give you about 100 AD... and other "late game falling off" heroes scale better with those items.
I didn't say it was instant, just how much damage he could do reasonably consistently. Panth isn't an assassin, so comparing him to talon doesn't make sense. He has an ability that makes him immune to damage from a direction. Panth does need a longer stun on his Q so he can do something other than get the triple auto off before it ends, but he doesn't need any significant buffs to his damage. His scaling is alright, but he falls off because he's a melee AD mage bruiser - just like Renek or Darius who also fall off hard late game. He's obviously not going to be as strong as a Jax or Irelia in the late game; his early game is quite strong though (He should crush Jax/irelia in lane), and his win rate isn't THAT bad. Those 3 items give 140... 40 (cleaver) + 40 (titanic) + 60 (sterak's) = 140. Full build you should get about 200 bAD, which is enough for him to kill people. Just because PTA and conqerer are the go-to for lane panth (with a minimal game count on new panth from anyone, and jungle with electrocute being the more popular set up) doesn't mean they're the best. It's way too early to say what's best definitively. Panth doesn't stay fighting long enough to make use of conquerer, and it's totally useless for him in the early game where you don't want long trades; PTA is probably better because of his empowered W though; probably about on par with electrocute; aftershock is almost certainly the best in team-fights, since he's not an assassin. Aftershock gives a ton of resists after the initial stun, which is a big deal in teamfights, when he typically is running a lower on resists, and the damage scales with HP, which you'll probably build a lot of. Kat doesn't have any AA resets, and she's squishy baseline. Her mobility means she doesn't need to build tanky, and her ult takes time to do damage and scales better with AP. Complaining about his waveclear is ridiculous, since 2 uses of a 5s-2.4s cd ability clears any minion wave from level 4 or 5. You don't even need much in terms of items for it.
: Ye so does pyke... ALSO I HAVE MENTIONED THAT AND IT'S AN ISSUE While his bets items are sterak titanic trinity (his core imo) he scales solely on bonus AD, which makes his best items suboptimal because of he had base AD or total AD scalings those items would be worth more on him. His best build is him being suboptimally itemized bruiser. He scales badly into his own items. That's trash
His Q, when empowered, has a 200% bAD ratio. If he's doing the spear throw execute, it's 300%. The 140 AD you get from those 3 items at max level gives you 140/280/420 damage. His scaling is VERY good, so you don't need a crazy amount of AD to make use of it. If you think his wave clear is bad, maybe try starting with the Hydra. At level 18, with just those 3 items and runes (~271 TAD/151bAD), the opener of empowered W into auto into titanic reset into Q does: 350% TAD (~948.5) + 4x Titanic procs (+160) + empowered titanic proc (389.5) + empowered Q Stab (777) for a total of 2275 damage before armor. If you throw in an E after all that, it's another up to 271 + 255 + 406.5 = 932.5, for a total of 3207.5 damage before armor, which is enough to kill an ADC/mage, and after the initial combo during the stun that does the bulk of that damage, you're immune to damage from the front for up to 1.5 seconds. Electrocute and aftershock, which are probably the best keystone choices for laning in the early game, since you're not looking for extended trades (though comet, Aery, and phase rush are probably all pretty good as well), both add similar amounts to that burst. If you have mana problems, take manaflow bind, or maybe try building manamune, which might be pretty good on him, with the empowered W triggering the on hit effect 3 times. For sustain, maybe take Ravenous hunter and taste of blood.
: Pantheon has trashy roams be cause his pushing power is bad. Roaming versus anyone equals the enemy toplaner getting ahead in farm and taking or or 2 plates which incinerates your lead. If your roam 3 times you lose a tower which mean you gotta def top with your trashy clear, you fell behind and their top has the space to rotate all game with his team getting objectives post 6. Roaming with a pantheon with his inability to push the lane is suicide
New panth 1 shots minion waves with empowered Q after a couple of items... Sounds like you're not building tanky enough. He doesn't really have the kit for full assassin. You should try titanic hydra + black cleaver + Steraks. On hit damage triggers on all 3 of his empowered W attacks (and you should almost never used W without it empowered) so titanic is actually pretty nutty.
: > [{quoted}](name=asamu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y0uyOPpx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-12T00:20:54.503+0000) > > The problem is they can't. It's just too hard to accurately account for everything. Things like map movement and when rotations happen have way more impact on when and how players die than you might realize, and that's not something you can track in the numbers. Actually, on reflection, it could be possible to adjust MMR retroactively to account for trolls, inters, reported players, etc. But it would be quite the exercise to work out the algorithm and calculations to adjust the MMR in this way.
This would be possible, yeah. They can't account for exact player performance per match, but they could probably account for leavers, DCs, and maybe inting. Though inting could be difficult to judge in some cases; sometimes a player just gets camped and doesn't know how to deal with it, so they'd have to be pretty careful with the algorithm on it.
: Riot can you make the TFT end screen show what ITEMs everyone got?
Yes, this should have been in from the start. Items matter a lot for whether or not a composition works.
: What else am I supposed to do with the {{item:3070}} and spatula I had sitting around? Not like I had any other items to combine them with, might as well try to get SOME sort of synergy with Ranger Demon.
: > [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QOln6Zhs,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-08-10T18:07:51.764+0000) > > # S U P P O R T > > # B T W > > .... > > Supports are meant to be champions who function on low income. It is this ideology that made support the least popular and completely unfun role in the early days of league. It's only in the past few years that supports have actually gotten a decent gold income and the rise of AP kill supports have made people actually queue for support. If you remove that it will be autofill nearly every game.
TBH, I quite liked filling my inventory with wards and covering the map with pink wards (because the enemy team had an eve) as a Janna with no real items. The reason mage supports are so popular is that they can actually carry games without much reliance on the rest of the team, and kill people solo. They have waveclear, poke, and can delete people. If you catch the right target at the right time and kill them, it can win the game outright, and you can help defend if behind. CC oriented supports can't do those things, so they'll inevitably be less popular, even if their win rates are marginally higher. It's often much harder to come back if you fall behind with a CC support than with a mage support, because they can't waveclear to stall the game, and you can't snowball your lane as a CC support if your ADC is bad. The good games as a mage feel better, and the bad games don't feel as bad, because often it's the ADC that's dying, where with a tank/CC support, the support is pretty much always going to be the one with more deaths, so even if they're doing things right, they often end up looking worse.
: TFT is a RNG Sh**fest. TT Being Removed For That?
To be fair, Twisted treeline has been awful ever since they did the re-design. The original map was actually pretty good. Also, it's never been all that popular to begin with. Not sure why they'd need to remove it, but TFT is actually pretty good, and if there was a need to pick between the two, I'd go with TFT.
: Why Tanking destroys your mental and creates 'hardstuck players'
> I propose that mmr be based off of in game stats like k/p, objective control, csing, etc. rather than have yourself marked as a "bad player" because your team didn't perform. The problem is they can't. It's just too hard to accurately account for everything. Things like map movement and when rotations happen have way more impact on when and how players die than you might realize, and that's not something you can track in the numbers.
Hotarµ (NA)
: Not even just that, it's still a useful tool for splitpushing and clearing the jungle. Udyr has the ability to max phoenix stance and build Bloodrazor + full tank for decent damage while surviving fights.
Eh, problem is that tiger does more damage single target unless you're building AP (which is bad regardless), and with tiamat/titanic, you don't need more AoE. Without some sort of rework one or the other will always be way better than the other. While the OP's suggestion maybe isn't a good one for how to go about it, and some people might get upset by it being turned into an actual ult (because Udyr's never had an ult), they really should do something with it. It would also fit well as an actual ultimate thematically, seeing as it's the only ability that relates to a mythical creature. Monkey, tiger, turtle, and bear are all regular animals; a phoenix is a magical fire bird that resurrects from its own ashes; it's pretty easy to turn that into an ult.
: I HATE THE ONE SHOT META!!!!!!!!!!!!
Honestly, LoL has pretty much always had a problem with damage and 1-shots. It's been ramped up in the current times by more powerful masteries/runes to combat a "tank meta", but damage has always been ridiculously high towards the later stages of the game when carries and mages really start to take over and tanks tend to fall off hard. The "tank" metas are usually just a result of shorter game lengths, where the side that gets the early lead builds defensive items/hp (which don't rely on multiplicative scaling like most damage items and are stronger in the early-mid game where base damage values are relatively higher compared to base HP/armor/mr), in order to make it easier to hold that advantage in the mid-game and end things relatively early, when players don't have enough gold to properly itemize both defense and offense on damage carries or to get enough out of the multiplicative damage scaling items, where 2.5-3 completed items aside from boots are needed. Both problems, mid game tank dominance and late game carry/mage dominance, would be largely resolved if they curbed the power of items significantly (As in something like cutting the stat values on every item in half, and probably reducing the cost a bit as well), and it would open up the possibility of nerfing the current masteries/runes to a more reasonable state, but I doubt they'll ever do that, and it would probably necessitate redesigns for certain champions, like Yasuo.
Valkas69 (EUW)
: Assassin Crit Rates
Every unit in the game has a 25% chance to crit on basic attacks. Rengar's ability gives him a huge attack speed steroid and 25% increased crit chance. Assassins just get more damage on crits, so they're more noticeable.
: Rewarded for Losing and Punished for Winning?
They don't get a gold advantage. Whenever you win a game, you get +1 gold immediately. If you lose, you get nothing until you've lost at least 2 games, then you get the same +1, but it doesn't come before interest like the win gold. You need a pretty long streak to get to +2/3 gold on a loss streak, which also means losing a lot of HP. Carousel pick is nice and all, but it's generally still better to aim for wins from the start, because if you're on a win streak, your eco is better than it will be on a loss streak. All the game does is give the people that start off the game behind a chance to come back into the game. If the players at the top got first carousel pick, then the game would be really awful, because the earliest part of the game would matter the most, and is also the most dependent on RNG, as some people just don't get offered a decent composition early. As someone else pointed out, if you're losing early, you're lower on HP, and have to all in for a strong composition earlier, which kills your eco. If you're winning early, you can hold onto your gold longer.
: I think the point was you had **too many** synergies, to the point where you basically had no synergies. Your champs all had synergies, but only with one or maybe two other champs you had. 2 glacials, 2 brawlers, 2 demons, 3 assassins...You were hitting too many *different* things, so your synergies were too well distributed. You also got 2 2* r4s, which isn't always easy.
Honestly, more different synergies is usually better, unless you have particular sets of items. Void buff is underrated late game, elementalist is OP atm, 3 assassin is still pretty good, you don't really want more than 2 demon atm, and 2 glacial gives that random chance of winning because of a lucky stun at the start of the match or consecutive stuns towards the end.
: Do you think dragon should be able to kill off players
Dragon is no longer magic immune on the PBE, which should help a lot with this. Generally, it's a positioning/itemization thing. You always want a red buff/morellos to deal with Dragon if you might go a composition that will otherwise struggle with it, like sorcs. Spreading properly to prevent its splash from killing much of your team all at the same time is also important.
: > [{quoted}](name=Emperor Mudkip,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=YEEoaqaH,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-05T01:30:35.745+0000) > > I dont mind assassins getting nerfed but they will also have to get buffs to balance them > some stuff riot can probably do is get rid of all true damage and %healthdamage from assassins or bonus damage, after that assassins would get hit hard BUT. They should get flat damage buffs so they wouldn't be too op anymore or be too useless, since they are meant for good early game and mid game. well considering they auto jump to backline anyway that is a significant gameplay strategy in itself. Dont think they need to be so strong when they are already jumping past the frontline. which makes the suicideplank's comment completely irrelevant haha
Good positioning can prevent this. It's really not a huge issue. 6 assassin buff could get nerfed, but honestly, assassins aren't that good. You sort of need ghostblades to make other units assassins to win with them.
: List of champs by level?
https://tftactics.gg/db/champions This site is super useful. It has all the stats for all the champions as well.
fmwyso (NA)
: Suggestion: Allow players to roll at lower level percentages
Eh, this would just make people always prioritize leveling with their excess gold even more. It removes a lot of the advantage people get when they take the risk of rolling early with their gold and have it pay off.
: multiple spear of soj on pyke
Honestly, pyke is fine now after the fix to Shojin and the nerf to his stun duration. He's pretty annoying if they 2-star him early, but good positioning can make him useless. He doesn't have great synergies, and pretty much always gets sold late game to put the items on a real carry like ASol or Ashe. I do like the idea of items being unique though; it would also be useful as a second way to bounce an item off of someone you don't want it on, like bouncing a second BF sword or something off of someone that already has a BT. (The only other way is to turn the item into a type item that's already on the character, like making Blade of the Ruined King on a blademaster or Ghostblade on an assassin).
: I have a hard time believing Nidalee is even better than Vayne/Kassadin let alone close to Garen...someone tried to use a double guinsoo/rapidfire gun Nid and they died to a sorcerers comp easy because they were distracted by a Garen/Darius duo in the frontline long enough for the sorcerers to kill them immediately. 3 stars don't matter much unless its a rare one. I didn't have a 3 star in my entire lineup because I don't care about em when I have a 2 star Karthus/brand/morg/Sol in the backline and a Garen to soak I guess I also had a 2 star Yasuo at that point too but that's what you typically get when you aren't rolling 50x for a 3 star and focus on lvling. Had a 2 star Garen and Darius duo carry me into late game with tank items because they can protect your backline so easy and the funny part is that even when you face assassins they can typically kill most of them to limit the dmg and its super easy with a PD. Fiora definitely needs to be buffed though she is just sitting on the bench until you have 3(exact) or 6 Nobles
Kass is only good very early on when damage is low enough for his shield to make the difference and his mana drain is affecting a significant portion of the enemy team. Vayne isn't nearly as good as Nid; Nid does way more DPS and has better synergies. A Kass or Vayne would have died just as fast to that sorc comp as a Nid. That's really nothing to judge it on. Anecdotal evidence doesn't really mean anything. I've won a game by stacking a 2 star Varus with double Shojin in a ranger comp; that doesn't mean Varus is S tier. Vayne/Trist pretty much need to hit 3 star to be at all relevant later, while a 2 star Nid will stay reasonably strong for most of the game. Garen + Darius is good because of knight synergy, and Darius has imperial synergy. They aren't there for the damage anyway, and they're not a goal for a composition, so hitting 3 star isn't important. Garen falls off later because his synergies aren't as good later and/or are harder to get than Nid's. In the very early game, he's maybe a bit better because of his high base stats, but Nid stays relevant longer due to synergies. Nidalee is better than elise/shyvana at a lower cost, and they all share a synergy. Shyvana's only better than Nid if you 3* her or maybe if you run ASol and stack items on her because of magic immunity.
Nea104 (EUW)
: Sorry, where is Pyke? {{champion:555}}
Pyke was already nerfed, as was Shojin. IMO, he's actually in a decent place now.
ZaFiReX (EUW)
: Nerfs and buffs will happen, it's Riot after all. I'm almost agree with all your post, so I give you +1 And as I said in my post of cost changes, I had some ideas too: > [{quoted}](name=DaRkSkyX,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=UX8ibOyd,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-04T09:04:43.655+0000) > * Maybe Kassadin should be 2 tier and he could have additional spell damage (his Q). > * Mordekaiser should be reworked and have his E ability as his ult throwing out enemies a little further or into him (cost 2 or 3 maybe). He also can have his LoL passive or is W as ultimates. I really dislike his Q on this gamemode. > * For Poppy, her ult gains AoE. > * Fiora could be reworked into an anti-CC unit, where passively she can use her W everytime someone CC her to parry it and gaining attack speed when she parrys. So there is no mana needed, his HP may be buffed too. > * This is a secondary one, but maybe make a basic lifesteal item, so more items can be build from it. > * Glaciar should be nerfed. Not just % passive on-hit. I think 2 seconds of CC for EVERY ATTACK it's too much and it cause units to perma-cc a lot of the time. It would be fine but still OP 1 second but can be changed to a 3 / 6 buff. Additionaly, make QSS an item. > * Assassin damage crits to 125% / 325% and they get a little % of change of criting (10/30 for example). > * Buff the 6 sorcerers damage synergy. > * Add mana burn on spells for demons synergy and maybe nerf some autoattack chance to burn mana. > > I can put even more. Tell me what do you think and what would be your own balance changes.
Idk, I think all of those changes except the assassin and glacial ones are a bit drastic. Glacial stun duration being cut in half would probably be a bit much; 1.5 would probably be alright, or making the duration change with the synergy instead of the proc chance, so 20-30% at 1.5/2/2.5 seconds instead of 20/30/45% at 2 seconds. Generally, glacial isn't really a problem as is. It's hard to go for because Ashe and Volibear are so item dependent, and the other glacial units all have slow/weak autos. I don't think 3 assassin needs any changes, but 6 assassin could be nerfed to a 300% bonus. I generally don't think assassins are particularly strong because of how difficult the synergy is to activate and how much they can get wrecked by good positioning, but the 350% crit bonus is pretty insane when you get double ghostblade for kennen and shen and stack items on a 2 star Akali.
: T4 units are fine but Sejuani might need a bit less stun time but not only a .5 sec...they are supposed to be strong otherwise you aren't going to work towards them. Shyvana certainly doesn't need a buff just because she only fits into some comps like other Shapeshifters but Elise she is very strong when she can transform. Nidalee is hardly anything compared to Garen who is magic immune when spinning making him by far the best 1 cost.
All I'm saying is that most of the T4 is a tad too strong right now, not that they shouldn't be strong. I'm suggesting reducing the stun by .5, not setting it to .5. Rank 2 sej has a 3/4/5 second stun; reducing that to 2.5/3/3.5 or 2.5/3.5/4.5 wouldn't cripple her. Cho's CC is 2/2.25/2.5; 1.5/1.75/2 is good enough. Gnar's is 2s; 1.5 would be good enough. Shyvana is straight up awful without synergies, and even with them, she's barely good enough to run. Nidalee is better than Shyvana on a 1-1 comparison, and Nidalee is a 1 cost while shyvana is a 3 cost, and Nidalee's synergies are arguably better. Shyvana has less DPS (due to wild buff, which is easier to activate than dragon buff) and has only 50 more HP at 1 star, but is melee. Sure, Shyvana's transform is better, and a 3 star shyv is better than a 3 star nid, but Nidalee's tranform has a heal attached to it, and with Shyvana being melee initially, she usually dies either before she transforms or immediately after without getting more than 1 or two attacks off, while nidalee is usually still on high HP when she transforms. Elise's transform only gives her lifesteal and summons the spiders that usually do nothing except soak some damage. With how low elise's base stats are, it's not enough. She's tied with Anivia, Asol, Lissandra, and Braum for lowest DPS in the game, but Anivia, Asol, and Lissandra have way stronger abilities with good mana generation due to synergies, and Braum is a tank. The only champion with less HP is Fiora, while Lissandra, Veigar, Katarina, and Ahri all have the same... notice that all of those are on the list of units that need buffs atm. Garen's not THAT good since they've nerfed him. He's the 2nd best 1 cost because his base stats are amazing, but... synergies exist, and Noble/Knight synergies aren't anywhere near as good as wild/shapeshifter, and Nidalee can be item stacked as a carry for late game, and Garen can't be. The magic immunity while spinning often doesn't matter against magic damage heavy teams, because their abilities often go off before he starts spinning.
: You're not going to cover Glacial at all? I don't mind it being a chance to freeze. But the problem is in the length for me, and the fact that right as it ends, you can still be immediately frozen again. Best change to make would be to either lower the stun to 1s, OR keep it at 2s, but make a timer that the same unit cannot be frozen more than x times every y seconds. It feels bad when you go up against 6 glacial and 6 of your 7 units just absolutely do not get to play the game. It feels even worse earlier on in the game when you've taken out everyone but Ashe, and she just freezes/kills 2 or 3 people on her own with a bunch of low%chance glacial procs in a row.
Fair point. Glacial can be pretty frustrating. I guess I just didn't really see it as a problem because it's really hard to justify going heavy into glacial, so it's rarely done, and I rarely see it do particularly well outside of a stacked 3 star Volibear.
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